Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
:::::::::{{edit conflict}} Yes, Mr. Pants...I get your point-y...twice now. I yield my remaining 30 secs to the gentleman from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Beam me up, Scotty. <sup>]]]</sup> 23:39, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::{{edit conflict}} Yes, Mr. Pants...I get your point-y...twice now. I yield my remaining 30 secs to the gentleman from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Beam me up, Scotty. <sup>]]]</sup> 23:39, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::So you're not discussing this in good faith, then? You're using deception to win an argument. That's disappointing. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 23:56, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::So you're not discussing this in good faith, then? You're using deception to win an argument. That's disappointing. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 23:56, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::*sigh* No, whistle britches...I don't play games. I'm far too seasoned for such nonsense. Show me verifiable statements of fact, not opinions, rumor or propaganda like that which is being force-fed to the public by propaganda machines, bait & click news orgs and political pundits. It's amazing what some people will say if you pay them enough...which may explain why I have little faith in politicians. <sup>]]]</sup> 01:03, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
::::::::Atsme, Trump has been despised ever since he slithered through the Queens-Midtown Tunnel in the late 1970's to tear up and glass-plate the old Commodore Hotel on 42nd Street. There's lots of RS about how his mentor Roy Cohn taught him that any publicity is good publicity - even infamy. He has not ''suffered'' controversy and disparagement, he has courted and fomented it. Isn't that much obvious by now? Actually, I'm hoping you'll saddle up one of those ponies of yours and go lasso up a few of the 13 Russians the Grand Jury just put on the wanted list. ]] 23:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
::::::::Atsme, Trump has been despised ever since he slithered through the Queens-Midtown Tunnel in the late 1970's to tear up and glass-plate the old Commodore Hotel on 42nd Street. There's lots of RS about how his mentor Roy Cohn taught him that any publicity is good publicity - even infamy. He has not ''suffered'' controversy and disparagement, he has courted and fomented it. Isn't that much obvious by now? Actually, I'm hoping you'll saddle up one of those ponies of yours and go lasso up a few of the 13 Russians the Grand Jury just put on the wanted list. ]] 23:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::Indicted...and 13 is the lucky number! <sup>]]]</sup> 23:41, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::Indicted...and 13 is the lucky number! <sup>]]]</sup> 23:41, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Revision as of 01:03, 17 February 2018
Warning: active arbitration remedies
The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)
Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page
Violations of any of these restrictions should be reported immediately to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard.
Editors who are aware of this topic being designated a contentious topic and who violate these restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions.
Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as obvious vandalism.
In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion.
Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance.
Whenever you are relying on one of these exemptions, you should refer to it in your edit summary and, if applicable, link to the discussion where consensus was clearly established.
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This article was nominated for deletion on 15 January 2018. The result of the discussion was keep.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination
This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.
The title chosen for the article
I think that the editors have done a commendable job in terms of keeping the article balanced and including all the relevant information! I have two alternative suggestions regarding the article title, though - "Race-related controversies involving Donald Trump" or "Allegations of racism against Donald Trump". I think that the current heading (while appropriate for an encyclopedia article) may leave the reader with the impression that Donald Trump is primarily known for his views on race or is an expert on human races. He is a very famous politician and businessman, but the books he has written (to the best of my knowledge) avoid the topic of race/racial differences between populations and he is not exactly a racial anthropologist like Carleton Coon, if we are to take one example of a person who has theorized about/undertaken systematic studies regarding the various human phenotypes.Oleg Morgan (talk) 18:51, 27 January 2018 (EET)
The current title is not precise, but I struggle to find a better one that is both precise and concise. The most accurate would something like History of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions by Donald Trump.- MrX 🖋 17:17, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Except while correct technically, it gives the impression its historical, rather than its actual use which is to indicate 'This is a history of (up until the present time) racial issues involving dondald trump'. How about 'Donald Trump's racial controversies'. Every one of them has caused a controversy at some point, either legally or in the news. And there is no argument that its due to him (regardless of his actual intent). The better sources (that bring all the incidents together) clearly indicate its a pattern of controversial racial-based actions/statements (its not a 'view' for example, when you refuse to rent houses to black people, it is however a racially-based controversy). Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you all for the nice comments and the feedback offered! I like the other suggestions provided and am actually still undecided as to what the best title would be. I think that History of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions by Donald Trump accurately describes the scope of the article, though for the sake of neutrality the words "allegedly" or "purportedly" may need to be added as well. However, as rightly pointed out, the heading in question is not concise enough.Donald Trump's racial controversies would probably be a good compromise.Oleg Morgan (talk) 12:40, 29 January 2018 (EET)
I also don't like "racial views of Donald Trump", something like "accusations of racism against Donald Trump" would be better. Racism is inherently irrational and arises from ignorance, stereotyping and prejudice, not from having "views". Better still, delete the whole bloody thing and merge it back into the Donald Trump article. The article got Afd'd, and while the admin judged the consensus correctly, the consensus was not a correct application of wikipedia policy regarding WP:POVFORK and WP:BLP. There really is no precedent on wikipedia for an entire article dedicated to whether a living person is or isn't a racist. 222.153.254.63 (talk) 22:59, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Among the alternative titles offered, Accusations of racism against Donald Trump matches article content most closely. — JFG07:32, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
I think we should keep the current title. It is neutral, unlike "controversies" or "accusations" or "allegations". And it leaves room for the other side, i.e. his own and others' defenses of his views, which are absolutely required to be included by Misplaced Pages policy. MelanieN alt (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I didn't realize this discussion was still ongoing. I agree with Oleg and JFG and support Accusations of racism against Donald Trump which is what comprises this article. If the article was actually about his views, they certainly are not given proper weight. The article includes some of his denials in response to the racist allegations against him by journalists and pundits, not actual his views (as in POV), most of which are actually supported by his actions, and the lede would read much differently - certainly not weighted so heavily with allegations of racism by op eds and commentary from news orgs and advocacies.18:19, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely not. This article is not about accusations; it's about Trump's 45 year documented history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions. The word "accusations" is an expression of doubt in this context, and completely inappropriate for neutral encyclopedia.- MrX 🖋 20:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree. BTW, at one point I said that Donald Trump's racial controversies would be an improvement. What with a few weeks of working on the article I've changed my mind and now feel that what we've got is the best title for the article. Gandydancer (talk) 21:11, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I think Accusations of racism against Donald Trump would be an improvement and fit more with what we actually have in the article. PackMecEng (talk) 21:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I frankly don't understand the argument. What's wrong with giving the article a descriptive title? That is absolutely part of our titling policy. This article documents multiple accusations of racism, that's what the title should describe. When you say "no, it documents a long history of racist actions by Donald Trump", you are simply embracing the POV of his accusers. On the contrary, very little in the article purports to document Trump's "racial views", because he hasn't really expressed any consistent views on the topic, therefore the current title is inadequate. — JFG23:10, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
That's ridiculous. I'm embracing the reliable sources for crying out loud. And my argument is very easy to understand. This article is about Trump's racial views, not other people accusations. This is not creative writing where we try to turn the tables and make the so called accusers look like the bad guys.- MrX 🖋 00:21, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
MrX, we're not supposed to make anyone look like the "bad guys"...including Trump. I am dismayed by your comment. We're supposed be writing from a NPOV, and for you to say things like "creative writing" and "turn the tables" is very disconcerting. I counted 5 editors who indicated support for Accusations of racism against Donald Trump. 02:12, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
-One probably best not to quote Think Progress for the type of partisan institution that it is.
-Two generally not good to list being endorsed by someone as something controlled or targeted by that person. Like we don't list Duke's endorsement of Trump as a candidate for example since he was someone that Trump did publicly denounce.
-Three comments by Jason Johnson seem undue in general, not very notable.
-Finally the view that the state of the union was racist is a minority view over all and not widely covered.
I summarised the Time source; I make no judgement on the notability of (blue-linked) people included in that source. Other sources can be added also, so I don't agree that it's "not widely covered". zzz (talk) 01:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
See Google ""americans are dreamers too"" - 226,000 results. including all the main Reliable Sources (plus Fox, Breitbart etc.) zzz (talk) 01:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah because that was part of the speech. From the whole first page of that google result none of them mention racism and only Mother Jones mention Duke. PackMecEng (talk) 02:03, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The CNN quote you mention was not by CNN, they were quoting twitter. Not really applicable or particularly damming. Never really heard of CBC before, they are state sponsored right? But anyhow the quotes from there are again from twitter, same guy are before and same issue with citing Duke as listed above. I should point out divisive does not equal racist. The Newsweek source seems to cover it, but they still seem to be the minority view. The Daily Beast just points out people parroted it, with no commentary on it. Again these do not hold much weight for such a divisive claim that it was a racial statement. PackMecEng (talk) 03:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No one is claiming it is a majority view that it was divisive. It doesn't need to be. It is reported that many people saw it as divisive. In my opinion that is enough to cover it in this article. I'm ok to wait and see what others think. zzz (talk) 04:07, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
This remark was discussed on Washington Week in Review with Robert Costa and other prominent journalists: "And from the State of the Union, the Democrats were really unhappy with the president’s rhetoric on immigration, and they were also unhappy that he appropriated the “dreamer” line, you know. That was one of the big lines from the speech, “Americans are dreamers too.” That incensed a lot of people." So it seems to me that this establishes the fact that it is an important issue and it actually goes far beyond the "Pretty Korean lady" remark which was overwhelmingly thought to be appropriate for the article in our above discussion. I also want to mention that it is a mistake IMO to insist that unless the word "racist" is mentioned we can't use the incident. All the better if one can find a notable person that uses the word (as I did when I added Mark Shields comment to the Elizabeth Warren section), but it was considered a racist viewpoint even without Shield's comment.
I strongly favor including this information that has been deleted. Gandydancer (talk) 19:28, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't think either of us were saying that sources must include the term racist. But that it would support Trump having a racial view, which this clearly does not. Incensed people does not equal his racial view. PackMecEng (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The Time source states "Immediately, critics, journalists, activists and other commentators took to social media to question the phrase “Americans are dreamers, too,” suggesting that it amounted to a racist dog-whistle against immigrants." Which is corroborated by white supremacists' support for the phrase. zzz (talk) 11:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
"Incensed people does not equal his racial view." Sure, as long as you separate this latest event from everything that's gone on before it. Of course Trump wouldn't admit that the Dreamers catch phrase had anything to do with the drug smuggling, raping, lazy Mexicans - no more than he and the birthers would admit that their opinions had anything to do with the fact that Obama was a black man. Gandydancer (talk) 16:13, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm relatively new to Misplaced Pages but I understand something about original research and having to have claims properly sourced. The claim that the phrase "Americans are dreamers too" is racist can only be supported as such if reliable sources say that the phrase was racist. Of course there is bound to be someone somewhere who would claim that Trump was being racist if he asked for sugar for his tea, but I doubt that sad individual would count as a reliable source. Trumps use of the phrase "Americans are dreamers too" was a clever turning of a phrase the Democrats had been trying to use for their own political ends, but to suggest it was racially motivated is clearly nonsense - had he said "White Americans are Dreamers too" I would conceded the phase is racist, but "Americans are dreamers too"? Incredible! So unless there are reliable sources that support the notion that the use of the phrase was racist, it should definitely not be included in this article. Lin4671again (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
There are reliable sources (see above). The question is, I suppose, is there enough of them. I would say yes, there are. zzz (talk) 16:52, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
You are missing my point - I said "So unless there are reliable sources that support the notion that the use of the phrase was racist.." I know there are many sources that us the phrase but are there any reliable sources that suggest that the use of the phrase was 'racist, racially-charged or racially motivated" - if not the information is not relevant to this article or the article scope needs to be broadened by editing the first sentence. Lin4671again (talk) 17:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
No, I got your point. "Immediately, critics, journalists, activists and other commentators took to social media to question the phrase “Americans are dreamers, too,” suggesting that it amounted to a racist dog-whistle against immigrants" (see above). Critics, journalists, activists and other commentators think the use of the phrase was racist, racially-charged or racially motivated. zzz (talk) 17:08, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Count three against. The mental gymnastics to construe anything Trump says as racist are truly mind-boggling. "Americans are dreamers too", sure, clever pun on DACA, no race involved. Did you know that American citizens come in all sizes and colors? — JFG02:28, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
"The mental gymnastics to construe anything Trump says as racist are truly mind-boggling." So, do you have some examples in mind, of statements falsely construed as racist? Or are you merely saying that, in your opinion, this particular statement is not racist, and so it should not be mentioned? Can you explain how that is consistent with WP:NOR? zzz (talk) 16:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
@Signedzzz: Well, we are possibly drifting into OR or FORUM territory, but let's take a well-known example: many commenters have been accusing Trump of racism because he embraced and amplified the birtherism claims. However, how is that more racist than using the exact same political smear against a very white adversary like Ted Cruz? Trump attacks everybody irrespective of race, gender or political party. So, when he attacks a black politician like Barack Obama he is considered racist, and when he attacks a female politician like Hillary Clinton he is considered misogynist. When he attacks a conservative politician like Jeb Bush or Ted Cruz, he is considered a traitor to Republican values. When he attacks a veteran like John McCain he is considered disrespectful to the military. But when he praises Martin Luther King, when he hires Ben Carson, is he racist? When he appoints Nikki Haley or Linda McMahon, is he a misogynist? When he wants a military parade, is he smearing the military? (Oh right, then he's a childish dictator…) Everything he does is viewed under a lens of evil symbolism, and that is quite puzzling to observe for a dispassionate outside observer of American politics. — JFG23:21, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Back to the direct question raised, indeed I totally fail to see how "Americans are dreamers too" can be construed as racist. There are certainly plenty of pundits who "hear a dog whistle" but this analogy is getting really tired. — JFG23:24, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, you don't think birtherism is racist, I forgot that. Back to the question of the SOTU, you don't think that was racist either. However, as you say, there are plenty who do, so that should be stated in this article. Any RS that agree with you can also be added, of course. zzz (talk) 23:30, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Obviously, everything we document in the encyclopedia must be properly sourced. We must still be aware that not everybody agrees that all utterances by Trump must have malevolent undertones. The birtherism affair has certainly been exploited by people with racist motives, I do not dispute that. I'm only stating that Trump has used similar weapons against all his opponents, so that cannot be taken as evidence of racism. — JFG01:42, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
So you have no constructive suggestions based on RS that would support your benign view of what RS cited here describe as POTUS' racist postures and policies? If so, let's move on. SPECIFICOtalk02:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
The subject of this thread is the remark "Americans are dreamers too". Many editors agree that construing this as racist is, as PackMecEng eloquently stated, "an undue addition of an almost fringe viewpoint", so there is no consensus to keep it in the article; indeed let's drop this and move on. — JFG02:26, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I actually did not notice the talk section. I removed it because it all seems to hang on other clubs not allowing blacks or Jews, but the refs don't confirm this. Another problem is stating that it "has been called "one of the more Jewish-friendly clubs on Palm Beach"" when that is not actually a direct quote, and the person who expressed the opinion is just someone who was strongly in favour of moving the embassy to Jerusalem, not a huge fan of Mar-a-lago specifically. zzz (talk) 14:45, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
I certainly don't think it deserves a section, that is why I moved it to the "Defenses" section before deleting it. If you have a source that directly confirms the racism of the other clubs, then I have no objection. zzz (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
I felt it was appropriate. I read the refs and what we have at Mar-a-Lago and it is my impression that it was a smart move on his part, besides the fact that he needed to open his place to those other than the old wealthy aristocracy if he wanted to get clientele, rather than a moral position. Never the less, he apparently did open his club to all. No one came right out and said that the other clubs don't allow Jews, though it was inferred. I wish we could find a good factual site on the subject as well... Gandydancer (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Having looked at the text, I think it does not currently belong in the article. I also don't see where it's declared "consensus". SPECIFICOtalk21:11, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
"But Trump undercut his adversaries with a searing attack, claiming that local officials seemed to accept the established private clubs in town that had excluded Jews and blacks while imposing tough rules on his inclusive one. Trump’s lawyer sent every member of the town council copies of two classic movies about discrimination: “A Gentleman’s Agreement,” about a journalist who pretends to be Jewish to expose anti-Semitism, and “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” about a white couple’s reaction to their daughter bringing home a black fiance." from describing how Trump had to fight for his inclusive club in a way that the private clubs that excluded black and Jewish people didn't have to fight. Lin4671again (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
From the same article: "Wyett, who is Jewish, said he would hear Trump talk with pride about Mar-a-Lago’s nondiscriminatory policy, but wondered if it was a business strategy: “Was he smart enough to realize that Palm Beach is about 40 percent Jewish and he was not going to attract the old guard anyway?”" I have already done a revert today, but that addition to the lead definitely needs to be reverted.zzz (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Really? Is this article just setting out to deal with the evidence that suggests that Trump is racist or is it trying to deal with all evidence? Had you said you felt the addition should be moved to the 'Defences' section I may have thought the latter....Lin4671again (talk) 22:15, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
The following text should be removed from the opening sentence of the lede: but, also, in the 1980's he turned his Mar-a-Lago mansion into an inclusive private club at a time when Palm Beach private clubs excluded black and Jewish people, and in 2017 unequivocally stated that "racism is evil". SPECIFICOtalk23:31, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree. This is anecdotal and does not belong in the lead. Trump's public remarks and actions are far more noteworthy than what someone claims they heard Trump say with pride.- MrX 🖋 00:36, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
"In 2015, prior to Trump's alleged comment, the New York Times reported that open defecation was widespread in many underdeveloped countries, specifically citing those in sub-Saharan Africa.(ref)Rick Gladstone (June 30, 2015). "Dirty Water and Open Defecation Threaten Gains in Child Health". New York Times. Retrieved February 11, 2018.(end ref)
These were deleted with the notation WP:SYNTH (which I take to mean no WP:OR).
The first edit relays a widely circulated email documenting a Peace Corps (now conservative editor of notable online magazine) narrative of her experience with fecal matter in Senegal during her overseas assignment. I don't see where reporting this is WP:OR. The Peace Corps alumna was demonstrating, rather successfully, I thought, of the literal truth of the remark. It was circulated sufficiently that snopes investigated it. Snopes agrees that she made the statement, which is why I'm offering no link to snopes, since the truth is in the citation itself.
The second NY Times comment on Sub-Saharan Africa popped up during my online search. It, too, suggests the same literal interpretation of Trump's remarks.
Using the first source would not constitute original research, but it would be WP:UNDUE. The second source is unusable because it makes no mention of Trump's racial views and it predates the shithole remark.- MrX 🖋 00:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
How is the Peace Corps observations, widely circulated on the internet, and even reviewed for accuracy by snopes (who has a large in-basket), and who edits a notable magazine, "undue?"
I suppose I could pin the NY Times citation on Trump's remarks themselves, though he doubtlessly used other sources in identifying these countries as "s--holes." It cannot be proven that Trump's remarks derived specifically from the NY Times, but it seems to me to have been taken from the same sources. When people defecate outside in front of foreigners, it's going to be noticed. The fact that the NY Times and Trump wandered upon the same facts independently seem irrelevant per se and not WP:OR but rather the reverse. Same conclusions given the same facts. Student7 (talk) 03:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Please read WP:WEIGHTWP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV before returning to this article or talk page. I am not doubting your good intentions, but the text is rather obviously inappropriate and it's important you get up to speed on basic editing principles. SPECIFICOtalk03:38, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
"Widely circulated on the internet" does not factor into content decisions. If you want the material in the artilce, you have to show that it (Trump's not racist because of the shortage of bathrooms in Africa) represents a significant viewpoint covered in reliable sources. Unfortunately, a blog post by peace corps volunteer Karin McQuillan does not satisfy that requirement.- MrX 🖋 12:29, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you MrX.
Let's say I said you were "short," and we both agreed that "short" was a pejorative. Let's say I found a WP:RS that said you were 4'11". While that might not prove that you were "short" according to everyone's definition, it would put the remark into objective, rather than subjective, context. Note that the date of the reliable source would not be germane. The measurement could have taken place prior to my observation. Your height would still be the same. The RS would not have to include the gratuitous commentary that their measurement therefore "supports" or "refutes" my observation. It would simply be objective data.
McQuillan was writing in the American Thinker, a notable online publication. The subtitle heading is "Journalists and pundits." I suggest that McQuillan fits this description. It is not clear to me that I am "trying to prove" Trump is anything but accurate in his description. Whether he is "racist" or not is somewhat beyond documenting one remark one way or another. The citation tends to indicate that he was objective in this one remark, anyway. The New York Times article does the same, and is way more objective since they weren't trying to prove that anyone was bigoted or free from bigotry. They were just reporting the facts gathered by WHO. Student7 (talk) 19:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Reducing immigration for predominately non-white countries, is racist and that is the proposed change to the immigration system, to reduce diversity in the background of immigration with such ideas as ending the lottery, etc., etc.C. W. Gilmore (talk) 21:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Seeking to reduce illegal immigration is not, in itself, racist. If the argument is that reducing illegal immigration will keep the USA white majority for longer, and is therefore racist, surely the corollary is also true: that to not reduce illegal immigration is also racist as it speeds the rate at which the USA will no longer be a non white majority!. Bottom line is that you can not conflate immigration and racism when both the citizenry of the USA and those trying to immigrate includes every race on earth. Lin4671again (talk) 10:30, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
The proposed changes to the immigration system by Trump will have little effect on "illegal immigration" but will have the effect of reducing the diversity of "legal" immigration by end such programmes as the lottery. Trump Administration plans for immigration appears to be designed solely to reduce immigration for those 'shitehole' countries and nothing to do with "illegal immigration". According to the experts, you reduce "illegal immigration" by limiting their access to working in the USA; as first Carter and then Reagan attempted with proposals to check Social Security numbers for workers and big business interests gutted from those bills before they became law. E-verify is voluntary for employers, now if that were made mandatory, then it would reduce working illegally by up to 80%. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 21:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Primary sourced video
moved to next thread below
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I've removed a mention of Trump's "racism is evil" remark that was primary-sourced to a video of his remarks that were widely reported as dissembling and that were met with renewed criticism of his reaction to the incident. The accompanying NY Times article, which was not cited, gives the full context of that televised snippet, which RS tell us follows a pattern of brief scripted politically correct comments preceded and followed by inflammatory and controversial remarks. In the wake of the video statement, NYT reports criticism among his staff, 3 executives quitting Trump's American Manufacturing advisory council, and far-right sources who said the video remarks were not to be taken seriously. Cherry-picked primary sourced content and used out of context as SYNTH clearly does not meet our editorial policies and guidelines. If any of this is in the article, it would need to use the secondary NYT article along with the video snippet and give proper weight to the thrust of that secondary report. SPECIFICOtalk15:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
See my remarks below, which I was in the process of writing when your post appeared. There is no SYNTH involved in quoting a speech without comment, as my edit did. — JFG15:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
What about Trump's views as expressed directly?
I added a direct quote of Donald Trump saying "racism is evil", and was reverted by SPECIFICO, with an edit summary stating that the New York Times subsequently dismissed Trump's plain statement, and rejecting the source as primary. I believe that in an article titled "Racial views of Donald Trump", we should be able to document views about racism that Trump has expressed himself directly (yes, primary source, so what?), in addition to all the commentary from people who deem him racist. Removing this makes a mockery of our neutrality policy. — JFG15:16, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Please put this in the section I opened immediately above to address this. BTW you did not cite the secondary source, so no you did not include any commentary or even any hint that there wasa such commentary. And the commentary is not about the label "racist" -- which we all know is a straw man. The whole reason we have this article is that his views are more nuanced and that the bare label denies our readers the detailed information they seek. You may move this reply of mine along with yours when you delete this separate section. SPECIFICOtalk15:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, and if you read that policy, you will note that quoting a statement from someone without further comment is an acceptable use of a primary source. Otherwise we could never quote anybody. Anyway, this is nitpicking, because Trump's statement has been quoted by secondary RS, notably The New York Times. — JFG17:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I've removed a mention of Trump's "racism is evil" remark that was primary-sourced to a video of his remarks that were widely reported as dissembling and that were met with renewed criticism of his reaction to the incident. The accompanying NY Times article, which was not cited, gives the full context of that televised snippet, which RS tell us follows a pattern of brief scripted politically correct comments preceded and followed by inflammatory and controversial remarks. In the wake of the video statement, NYT reports criticism among his staff, 3 executives quitting Trump's American Manufacturing advisory council, and far-right sources who said the video remarks were not to be taken seriously. Cherry-picked primary sourced content and used out of context as SYNTH clearly does not meet our editorial policies and guidelines. If any of this is in the article, it would need to use the secondary NYT article along with the video snippet and give proper weight to the thrust of that secondary report. SPECIFICOtalk15:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
SYNTH is about context, and this was used in the worst possible way from a primary source without giving our readers the benefit of the context that was readily available from the same source -- namely the article that accompanied and explained the video for NYTimes readers that day. Not good. ##. Meanwhile, it's clear that primary assertions by politicians, even in the absence of an immediate secondary contextualization such as was ignored here, are subject to widespread fact checking. And especially for those politicians who are documented by RS to routinely spread false and contradictory statments -- both about fact and about their own actions and opinions -- this use of a primary source is really not even worth the effort to discuss. A balanced NPOV account is required. In the absence of that, the primary cherry gets unpicked. SPECIFICOtalk17:50, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Oh sure, our readers can't possibly make up their mind for themselves by reading a plain quote, they need The New York Times to tell them how they should interpret Trump's remarks. I see. — JFG18:07, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
That's correct. That's why we don't just cherrypick primary sources and why we rely on fact checkers and of course that still fails to address the SYNTH misuse of that primary source which is also a core no-no. SPECIFICOtalk18:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Cherry-picking is everywhere on Misplaced Pages. This whole article could be construed as a giant cherry-picking exercise (see some remarks at the AfD). In this speech, and elsewhere, Trump has explicitly condemned racism. Apparently you don't want to admit it, and you are entitled to your opinion. Let other readers see what he said and make up their mind: some will see hypocrisy, others will see common sense, and neutrality will be upheld. I'm totally flabbergasted that you are sincerely advocating to remove Donald Trump's first-person statement about racism from an article called "Racial views of Donald Trump". — JFG18:26, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for not addressing my question. Why should Trump's publicly-expressed view on racism not be mentioned in an article titled "Racial views of Donald Trump"? — JFG20:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you make busy with other things and let's just let other editors comment. Judging from the number of thank you pings I've received, I know there are several lurkers who will eventually share their views. Time to chill. Give it a week. (Or add the context as at the main Trump article.) Thanks. SPECIFICOtalk20:45, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Without reviewing all the sources (I am on vacation after all), I can see no legitimate reason for removing this comment, or for hedging it around with press commentary saying he didn't mean it. I think we should have the quote in the article, along with any context other than just three words (Was that the whole sentence?) I think the one notation we should add is that he said it "in prepared remarks". We all know that Trump reading prepared remarks is a very different animal from Trump speaking off the cuff, so that qualification should be included IMO. MelanieN alt (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
MelanieN, shame on you peeking here during vacation 😼. However the simple alternative is to properly contextualize POTUS' remarks, as e.g. in the Donald Trump article, using the NYTimes story that pointed to that primary source video. That way, our readers can understand what the primary source showed. In the initial insertion of the content primary-sourced to the video, the secondary article was not cited -- leaving our readers in the dark. Anyway the primary sourced bit without the secondary would be undue, since there are tens of thousands of such video clips of Trump on the internet. Why choose this one? The secondary article, not initially cited, tells us why, so we briefly summarize it. SPECIFICOtalk22:30, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Contextualize or editorialize so reader's can understand ... what? A particular POV? No. We publish in a dispassionate tone per NPOV what the article says...and keep in mind, news orgs are questionable sources when it involves opinions and not statements of fact...and it is at that point that we use intext attribution. 22:52, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Atsme my love,👩❤️💋👩👩❤️💋👩👩❤️💋👩 have you reviewed the question at hand here?
A primary source video was used as a bare ref for one sentence uttered in the video with no context and no citation to the RS article that included the video. The article itself was not an opinion piece -- it quoted various notable individuals whose comments it summarized. SPECIFICOtalk23:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
This is very difficult to do when the basic facts can not be agreed upon. Establishing what the most simple baseline of factual evidence allows to build out to the most neutral point of view in the article. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 23:11, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
C.W., this thread is about a single narrow question. Whether a primary sourced cherrypicked statement should be used while omitting the full citation of the RS secondary source that published it and while omitting any of the relevant core information in that RS reference. You seem to be making a more general comment. SPECIFICOtalk23:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
It is a general statement and one that reflects on this narrow question. Trump has made many statements and many conflicting one; they conflict either with other statements or actions so it is very difficult to develop a baseline of which is factual and which are not. This is one of those cases, the statement was made, but given other statements and other actions, is it a factual statement? C. W. Gilmore (talk) 23:54, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
"Is it a factual statement?" Well, there is no question that Trump stated "racism is evil" in the cited speech; now, some people will believe him and some won't. NPOV requires us Wikipedians not to comment one way or the other, and let readers make up their mind. — JFG00:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, what does the other evidence show about how 'factual' the statement is? Do his other statements and actions contradict this statement? Does this statement fit his historical actions in business and private life? If any of these are answered in the negative, then it brings the 'factual' nature of the statement into serious question and those contradictions need to be dealt with before accepting this comment as 'factual', IMO. Consider the Access Hollywood tape which Trump later denied, which of those statements is the 'factual' one? C. W. Gilmore (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
You appear to question Trump's motives or "true beliefs", that is not what is at stake here. It's a fact that he uttered "racism is evil", just as well as it's a fact he uttered "grab'em by the pussy". Each reader can make up their own mind about Trump's sincerity in both cases, that should not prevent Misplaced Pages from reporting what he said. — JFG01:58, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
No, he's telling you it's UNDUE without the secondary source that demonstrates at least some suggestion that it's not UNDUE like other cherrypicked primary snippets and so there's what the Americans call Catch-22. You can't just grab a primary source and stick it where you please, because that fails WP:WEIGHT but if you want to claim due weight then you must cite at least one secondary source, and for some reason you decline to do so, even though it would in a sense relieve you of your immediate conundrum. SPECIFICOtalk02:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Dear SPECIFICO, while you seem to have time to intervene in a dialogue between another editor and myself, I'm still waiting for your answer to the central question of this thread. Again, I have no problem citing the secondary source and that is not the point. — JFG02:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
The problem with quoting Trump is that he says conflicting things even on a single subject so to ensure accuracy, more than a single quote is needed and it needs to be supported with actions; as with 'build the wall', that is a statement that is consistent and followed by actions, even though Mexico dos not appear willing to pay for it. The question on so many issues is which Trump quote is the 'Factual' one so one must look at actions as well as the words to understand what the true intentions are and which statements to give weight worth quoting. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 14:52, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict)🤗😘 SPECIFICO, I choose not to argue the RS argument...I've said my piece and have higher priorities on my list of things to do. I'll just leave with this closing thought (paraphrasing what a trusted admin explained to me in 2015 (and I wasn't too happy with his response at the time but I respected it): a major misconception is that a source can be declared "reliable", and that declaration is a fixed, absolute judgment. Reliability depends on two things - (1) the source itself and (2) how it is used. We have no way of providing a blanket approval that any source is reliable for all purposes. What matters is the greater context of the article. 23:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: The "primary source video" is a strawman argument; I already said I'm fine with adding the accompanying secondary article, and you could have added it yourself instead of removing Trump's quote. The real purpose of this thread, as I opened it, is to clarify whether we should plainly include Trump's directly-expressed views on racism or dilute them in commentary and opinion by others. So far, you have avoided answering the question. — JFG00:14, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Please. You didn't open the discussion. You ignored my explanation of your primary sourced cherrypick and then opened a duplicate thread minutes later, now claiming (I'm not sure what it buys you) that you what? Own this thread? As I've already said -- your view is known. We need to hear from others about how to fix the problem. SPECIFICOtalk00:21, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
AGF much? We were writing our threads simultaneously; you happened to hit "Save" three minutes earlier. Now, will you answer the question I have been asking? I did answer yours. — JFG00:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Support adding Trump's plainly stated view about racism in the article titled "Racial Views of Donald Trump." Seems to be a no-brainer. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
This section is nothing but Trump stating he is not a racist, why do we need to add one more? Besides, when actions don't match the words, how many times do you need to quote those words? At least with building The Wall, actions and words match up, but not so much on racial issues. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 16:35, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree. But just to state this in terms of our Misplaced Pages core policies: We can't cherrypick a single primary source out of the tens of thousands of statements from a public figure. So the initial edit clearly was wrong. But when we examine all the secondary sources that included that video or references to Trump's anti-racism revisionist statements, we see that the overwhelming weight of RS narrative is that Trump read those pre-scripted remarks to stem the firestorm of criticism he faced. RS then go on to detail how he was unable to stay on point with the anti-racism stance and immediately reverted to his initial inflammatory and racist narrative. That is what secondary RS tell us. That's why we don't cherrypick primary snippets. It's especially why we don't extract primary illustrations from a secondary RS like the initially cited NYTimes video, whose sole purpose in the source was to lay the background for the prolonged condemnation that followed the "racism is evil" words. MelanieN made a slight improvement by telling our readers that the "evil" bit was a prescripted remark, but that's rather oblique, when the fact it was scripted is significant only becuase POTUS reverted to his unscripted narrative in the following days and weeks. The cherrypicked content with no secondary sourced context is UNDUE. Citing it without the accompanying RS secondary narrative is even worse. SPECIFICOtalk16:48, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah I do not know why that section exists. The defenses should be with the claims. Also only about half of it is actually Trump saying he didn't do it. PackMecEng (talk) 16:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
We need to keep things in perspective and abide by WP:BLPSTYLE, Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content. Next is WP:NEWSORG with regards to an author's opinion vs statements of fact. To say one's "actions" don't match the words when based on nothing more than media opinion is a bit of a stretch. As a wise admin once explained, media is the court of public opinion, not a legal court and their opinions are their own. When referencing the border wall, the reality is that it is a national security issue, not a racial issue, and a substantial number of American citizens support a wall. Sharyl Attkisson wrote a piece in The Hill about how polls have been conducted. Also see WP:LABEL which is important MOS guidance (my bold underline): Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. Avoid myth in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term. 17:57, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
There is no consensus to reinsert the challenged content. I have removed a bit of text that was reinserted recently (a) without consensus, and (b) not conforming to statements in the cited source.
I propose the following article text, cited to the NY Times story:
Two days later, responding to the wave of disapproval that met his initial remarks, Trump delivered a prepared statement, saying "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs."
This text reflects the statements in the NYTimes article and reflects the statements in the cited source If anyone wishes to propose and alternative text, please put it up and we can discuss the relative merits.
SPECIFICOtalk02:50, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
For comparison, the text I added, citing the same New York Times source, is:
Two days later, Trump forcefully denounced far-right violence, stating: "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs."
If you'll examine every instance of "forcefully" in the NYT source, it's readily apparent that the article does not call Mr. Trump's tepid and temporary moderation "forceful". SPECIFICOtalk03:47, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
You're disrupting the discussion to change it after you've posted it. The challenged content should not have been re-inserted without consensus and if you're also conceding that it violated WP:V then it's not helpful to take a second bite of the apple in the middle of the discussion. What would be helpful is to add a few words that convey the main thrust of the NYTimes source. To wit: Trump droned a few scripted words and then quickly reverted to his pandering to the far-right and racist elements with such ardour that a total of 3 individuals ended up resigning from his American Manufacturing panel, that iconic white supremacist Richard Spencer gloated that the remarks were not serious, and that he resumed preparations to pardon Joe Arpaio - famed birther, racial profiler, and recently convicted criminal. If you now admit that "sure" it's not in Verified by the cited source, then what possible justification could there be for inserting this false content into the artice? Please withdraw your re-jiggered text above and drop the stick. SPECIFICOtalk14:46, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
The problem, as with the response to Charlottesville, he said one thing, then the opposite the next day, and then back to his first position the day after that; there is no consistency. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 15:05, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
That's not WP policy. We reflect RS portrayal of events. In fact we could have a separate article that discusses all the disingenuous scripted statements his staff makes him read in between savage twitter attacks, coded dog-whistles to the most rabid of his "base", and unannounced policy decisions, such as staffing the white house with 100+ folks who lack the security clearance to get through the door. We are not his press secretaries. We need to present the NPOV balance of mainstream reporting here. "Fool me once..." Nobody, and I mean nobody -- friend or foe of Trump -- takes these anodyne interludes seriously. And it is highly alarming to see experienced editors doggedly inserting text that fails verification, that's sourced to a primary cherrypick, or that leads to SYNTH deviations from the RS narrative. SPECIFICOtalk19:02, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I am not saying that we should abandon RS portrayal or violate NPOV, but rather that we should not cherrypick what some editors would like the article to say about Trump when verified sources say otherwise even if that appears to lack consistency. Misplaced Pages is not meant to make Trump look "consistent" to readers but to show what the sources say. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 22:14, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Support the wording proposed by SPECIFICO above. It's a much better representation of what the source says. Obviously Trump was in no hurry to disavow racism, and only did so under considerable pressure.- MrX 🖋 19:32, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
cherry picking wording in lead
The wording "though this was settled in 1975 without admission of guilt" has been added to the housing discrimination information in the lead. I have removed it because it is cherry picking from the DoJ ruling:
" required the Trumps to place ads in newspapers saying that they welcomed black applicants. It said that the Trumps would familiarize themselves with the Fair Housing Act, which prohibited discrimination. So it also specifically said they don't admit wrongdoing, but they did have to take several measures that the Trumps had fought for two years not to take."
This detail is best included in the body of the article as it is no more important than the fact that they needed to place ads, etc. Gandydancer (talk) 20:05, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Details of the ruling are indeed undue for the lead, but the outcome of the lawsuit should be there. I suggest writing simply "In 1973, he was sued by the U.S. Department of Justice for housing discrimination against black renters, and settled the case." What do you think? — JFG20:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
The problem is, the statement as currently written and even the proposed change both would leave the reader with the impression that Trump had been found to have discriminated against black renters, which he wasn't. My suggestion is merely that 'alleged' be added before 'housing discrimination' - any reader wanting to find out what happened can then follow the link to the reference. Lin4671again (talk) 20:18, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Lin, actually I've worked on a lot of WP corporate articles in which lawsuits have been documented and I know from my work here that much more often than not the settlement includes the wording that the offender did not admit to the offense. It is really quite the norm. @ JFK, perhaps, let's see what others think. Gandydancer (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
It would also be more precise to say "In 1973, his company was sued…" Trump wasn't sued personally, and his father's practices seemed to be the main target of the plaintiffs. — JFG23:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Are you saying that you want the accusation included, and the settlement omitted? That's picking a side… Include both or exclude both. — JFG00:23, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Let's be really, really clear - it is cherrypicking to not use intext attribution, to pick only from a particular POV and not include all views, and to editorialize. If the true purpose is not leave readers with "an impression", then provide both views and let them decide on their own. 22:55, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
We're not supposed to include every single statement from every RS - that's where editorial judgment comes into play - see WP:INTEXT. We summarize what RS say - if a source is not providing the various views, that in itself raises question. We should not lose sight of the fact that we're an encyclopedia, not WP:RGW or WP:SOAPBOX or WP:ADVOCACY. If editors will simply limit content to statements of fact rather than "opinions" (see WP:NEWSORG), we eliminate the "political" issues. Write the article based on statements of fact, and quote the opinions using in-text. 23:51, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
There are three possible outcomes to a lawsuit: win, lose, settle. When mentioning a resolved lawsuit in an article, the least we can do is document the outcome, without commentary. Otherwise, we'd run afoul of BLP. — JFG00:22, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Warren's Native American claim
This article is discussing Trump's racial views and the subsection on his use of the term 'Pocahontas' was entirely focused on that until this final sentence has been added - "Warren denies that she ever claimed to be a minority to secure employment. FactCheck has reviewed her employment history and interviewed her past employers and has been unable to find anything that disputes her claim"
My point is simply that I do not feel this additional sentence is required. Prior to its addition the subsection started by explaining why Trump is choosing to mock Warren for claiming native American ancestry; it then provides the context - an 'honoring native Americans' event - at which he used the term; it then has several statements of people attacking Trump for his use of the phrase; it then ended with the White House response in which the White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders stated, "What most people find offensive is Senator Warren lying about her heritage to advance her career."
The newly added sentence is not relevant to whether Trump's use of the term was racist - it is nothing more than starting a discussion on the strength of, and possible motives behind, Warren's claims. Other editors may now add to this discussion. I don't think this is good for the article and would suggest the recently added sentence, that is not directly relevant to the subject of this article, should be deleted.
In the other sections where information in this article is a condensation of info from elsewhere we give a short summary of the information. In this case a charge was made, it was denied, and an outside source found no evidence that she had used her claim to gain employment preference. What with Trump/Sanders accusing her of lying you can't expect that the article does not need to not include the fact that no guilt was found. Gandydancer (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Apply that same argument to almost everything as it applies to Trump - the claims are made, the accusations of lying are made, allegations of racism and collusion are made - nothing proven. If one person is not to be judged in the court of public opinion, why should anyone else? WP:BALANCE. 23:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
The section seems to be balanced overall regarding Warren, it should be left without major changes from the research I've been doing, IMO. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 00:47, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
As with nearly all polls on WP, there was some support for various other views, but there was nothing to suggest that there could possibly be consensus for a proposal like this. It's a distraction, and because there's no possibility of consensus for this proposal, it's just hurting all the other articles we could be working on. Instead we have to keep showing up to prevent edits and moves that obviously fail verification and cherrypick undue content and points of view. SPECIFICOtalk00:13, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah that is a good example why accusations of racism against Donald Trump is actually more accurate. Since that quote "...laziness is a trait in blacks." is a second hand account of what someone else said he said with no one else backig it up.PackMecEng (talk) 23:56, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
What's the problem? Nixon was famously bigoted against various ethnic and religious groups. Why be so defensive about this? It's not as if Trump tries to conceal it. SPECIFICOtalk00:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
That is not an accurate representation of the quote. You could have at least read the part of the article that I pulled it from. Trump was asked if the book it appeared in was accurate, and said that it was. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.00:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
And you could of read the next paragraph that said “He made up this quote. I’ve heard the quote before, and it’s nonsense,” Trump said. “I’ve never said anything like it, ever.” PackMecEng (talk) 00:02, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
I did. And I presumed that politicians lie. Was this a poor presumption on my part? (Hint: It's not). When someone like Trump -who can't take any criticism without popping his top- is accused of racism, they're not going to wait ten years to lash out at the person making the accusation, unless that person isn't particularly offended by the accusation. You know who's not offended by accusations of racism, don't you? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.00:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
They certainly do, all the dam time. But a few things. One he was not a politician at the time. Two when he confirmed it that was during a general interview on a lot of things and was not specific to that quote, hell he probably didn't read it. Three it still comes down to a disgruntled former employs word vs his, not something we could definitively say he said. More of a accusation if you will...PackMecEng (talk) 00:15, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Oppose - This article is not about accusations; it's about Trump's 45 year documented history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions. The word "accusations" is an expression of doubt in this context, and completely inappropriate for a neutral encyclopedia. We are obligated to adhere to WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR. This is not creative writing where we try to turn the tables on reliable sources and try to make the so-called accusers look like the bad guys.- MrX 🖋 21:37, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
According to whom? Journalists who are biased against him? Meh. It is what it is - opinion, not fact. 22:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
A relevant question here would be "Why are those journalists biased against him?"
@Atsme, it sounds like you don't agree with WP:V and WP:RS. Feel free to take your policy revision proposals to the appropriate policy pages and let us know when they change. Meanwhile, Trump's 45 year history of racism is well-documented, and that's the subject of this article.- MrX 🖋 22:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I respect your opinion, MrX...just don't agree with it. And Trump colluded with the Russians...meh! 22:23, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
@Atsme: That doesn't address my point at all. You keep saying "the media is biased against Trump" and I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that there's a reason they're biased against him. Just like the media is biased against Kim Jong Un and Jeffrey Dahmer. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:36, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
This is interesting, because I've stated my point as plainly as is humanly possible (twice now), and you still seem to have missed it entirely. I know you're rather smart, so you don't have difficulty understanding my meaning. And I'm assuming you're not intentionally ignoring it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.23:14, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Yes, Mr. Pants...I get your point-y...twice now. I yield my remaining 30 secs to the gentleman from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Beam me up, Scotty. 23:39, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
sigh* No, whistle britches...I don't play games. I'm far too seasoned for such nonsense. Show me verifiable statements of fact, not opinions, rumor or propaganda like that which is being force-fed to the public by propaganda machines, bait & click news orgs and political pundits. It's amazing what some people will say if you pay them enough...which may explain why I have little faith in politicians. 01:03, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Atsme, Trump has been despised ever since he slithered through the Queens-Midtown Tunnel in the late 1970's to tear up and glass-plate the old Commodore Hotel on 42nd Street. There's lots of RS about how his mentor Roy Cohn taught him that any publicity is good publicity - even infamy. He has not suffered controversy and disparagement, he has courted and fomented it. Isn't that much obvious by now? Actually, I'm hoping you'll saddle up one of those ponies of yours and go lasso up a few of the 13 Russians the Grand Jury just put on the wanted list. SPECIFICOtalk23:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Let's see, we just rejected one proposed move to water down the title. Then we just rejected misrepresenting the "shithole" smear of a couple dozen nations of colored folks as if it maybe didn't really really happen. And so now we are going to spend our time discussing whether to pretend the subject of this article is a bunch of "allegations" because -- who knows if any of this is true? SPECIFICOtalk21:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Sadly, this has become the norm for Trump-related articles and I have to say, it as pathetic as it is transparent. The fomula seems to be first, try to delete the article entirely, claiming it's an attack page and that Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper. When that fails, try to pepper the article with weasel words, cherry-picked quotes, and equivocations. When that doesn't work, try to change the title so that instead of the article being about Trump's well-documented racism, it becomes and article about accusations in which Trump is portrayed as the victim. - MrX 🖋 21:46, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Fortunately...as more information comes forward, more editors will realize why we should pay closer attention to WP:NOTNEWS. Wait for it... 22:26, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, the news will come out tomorrow that it wasn't really Trump who said and did all those things. Does this article even get into the thousands of Puerto Ricans he let die when he could have provided disaster assistance. And they weren't even "illegal". That's something well documented in RS. I'll check and maybe we can add a section about that. SPECIFICOtalk22:31, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
He let die? Provide RS please - my eyes and ears are open - constantly - wish they weren't at 3 AM. 22:41, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
To be fair on the Newsweek source, it states that then attributes it at the end to people on the ground. The money and supplies are there with more money coming. But the infrastructure to do anything with it was lets say poor before the disaster and has not gotten much better. It would be a hard sell to say it was racially motivated. PackMecEng (talk) 23:47, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah because The Root and Vox are good neutral sources... The Guardian an article responding to a TV comedian and People quoting twitter to say hes racist... Seems fairly hard doesn't it? PackMecEng (talk) 00:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Atsme, you know perfectly well that has nothing to do with the loss of electricity, potable water, transportation, and other critical life support systems. I'm giving you a giant trout for posting that off-topic garbage here. Please do better. SPECIFICOtalk00:47, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
.svg)
