Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:59, 17 January 2021

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Classical music This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Musicians This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians. An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Music theory This article is within the scope of WikiProject Music theory, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of music theory, theory terminology, music theorists, and musical analysis on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Music theoryWikipedia:WikiProject Music theoryTemplate:WikiProject Music theoryMusic theory ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Students

I've removed Hindemith, Klemperer and Schoenberg as students. Although Hindemith and Schoenberg read some of Schenker's work, there's no evidence that they were actually students. Klemperer did meet with Schenker a handful of times, but I don't believe that qualifies him to be considered a student (and he's not listed in any of Schenker's personal lesson plans). -- kosboot (talk) 10:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'm also concerned that Furtwängler has been 'annexed' by the Schenkerian lobby: naturally, they want the greatest exponent of Schenker's preferred repertoire to be 'on the team'; but I'm not certain that WF's concrete engagement with Schenkerian method and dogma hasn't been over-estimated. Do you have anything to contribute on this issue? I'd be interested to know your thoughts. Pfistermeister (talk) 17:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

That Furtwängler studied with Schenker is well-known in Schenkerian circles. I think the onus is on you, Pfistermeister. Furtwängler himself wrote on how he sought out Schenker after reading his monograph on Beethoven's 9th Symphony. He's mentioned multiple times in Schenker's diary (take a look at the Federhofer "biography"), had a decent amount of correspondence with him, is mentioned in his lesson books. So what evidence do you have that shows he was not a student of Schenker? -- kosboot (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

What could such negative evidence consist of? A diary entry saying "Furtwängler came to see me this afternoon -- but of course he's not really a student"?? And: 'Schenkerian circles' are not the places to find people prepared to downplay Furtwängler's connection with their movement. My suspicions also come from the fact that while I can easily imagine the very famous and very mature Furtwängler wanting to visit and talk to HS, I cannot possibly see him turning up for 'lessons'... And isn't that what 'studied with' implies?? I have over the years been very bothered by Schenkerians' beliefs about their hero's supposed impact on Furtwängler: I have even been present when people listening to one of the latter's Brandenburg Concerto recordings have said to me: "See?? You can hear the Fundamental Line!!" In short, I perceive an embattled theory's attempt to annexe a towering cultural figure for its own self-validating ends. From my point of view, Furtwängler's 'student' status is something that needs very specific support from the Schenkerian side! Pfistermeister (talk) 18:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I'm not being nasty. It's just that Schenkerians are actually making a very, very big claim... Pfistermeister (talk)

The documentation of Furtwängler's relationship to Schenker is there. As you admit, it's clear that you have a personal issue with Schenker. You are basing your opinions on just feelings - and that has no place on Misplaced Pages which places an emphasis on verifiable documentation and is emphatically not a venue for discussions or disputations. Go ahead an doubt all you like, but the evidence is there. Perhaps you should spend some time and examine it, and only after that examination, form an opinion. -- kosboot (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I am merely struck by the complete absence, from this page or anywhere else, of anything that proves or demonstrates 'student'. Can I in the nicest way challenge you to put something in the article that illuminates the issue by means of 'verifiable documentation'? You say 'the evidence is there'; but what I've seen only looks like 'evidence' to a Schenkerian partisan. The issue needs dealing with in an objective way, and so far there is no detail. Pfistermeister (talk) 19:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that whatever I put will not be acceptable to you. I can't put actual documents on Misplaced Pages. Again, you doubt - so you should be the one to do the research. Thus far you shown absolutely no knowledge of sources. -- kosboot (talk) 20:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a distinct difference between a "student" and a "pupil".  A "pupil" pays for lessons or courses of instruction.   A "student" freely reads, studies, audits, absorbs, has conversations with his/her peers and/or authorities, then proceeds to either adopt or reject the information the student has obtained through his/her studies.  The Furtwangler-Schenker letters and diary entries show a peer-to-peer relationship existed between the two men, with Furtwangler requesting and being instructed by Schenker in Schenker's theories, i.e., Furtwangler was indeed a "student" of the Schenker method, and did in fact understand and use Schenker's method of analysis during his career.  In the Furtwangler bio included in the Furtwangler-Schenker correspondence and diary documentation the bio's author (Christof Huff) states that "Schenker gave Furtwängler advice about analytical details, and the latter readily accepted and sought this advice, though he never became Schenker's pupil." K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 00:10, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

And also that Furtwangler tried to assist Schenker in getting a teaching position at the Vienna Conservatory (unsuccessful) and that Furtwanger paid for publication of volume 3 of Das Meisterwerk in der Musik (Oster mentions the receipts in his article "Re: A New Concept of Tonality?"). -- kosboot (talk) 08:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Freie Satz "incomplete"?

The article states that Der freie Satz was incomplete. It was not completely proofread, but Schenker did complete the text, so I've removed that word. -- kosboot (talk) 13:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Beethoven editions

Has editing of the main body of this Wiki been disabled? The bit about the Beethoven editions is incorrect; they contain analytical notes but analyses proper. There are Dover repros of the original editions that show analytical commentary only, not full analyses. Will someone change this? Blap Splapf (talk) 03:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Books

A 2007 book by Nicholas Cook presents a wider historical perspective on Schenker's life and work than hitherto, quite distinct from the positivistic application of a small sub-section of Schenker's ideas and methods that became institutionalised in post-war Anglo-American academia.

The above was removed from the article since, "if you're going to talk about books, make a list of them; adhere to NPOV". I don't know what that means, but I have little idea what the quote is trying to say since, as the reason for removal points out, it doesn't compare it to any of the books which it is supposedly better than. Hyacinth (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

See WP:NPOV. The above statement makes a claim that is not supported by other literature. To single out a recent book in the current small article seems inappropriate unless you mention it in the context of other books. -- kosboot (talk) 23:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

See also WP:SOAP. -- kosboot (talk) 05:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

References

1. Cook, Nicholas (2007). The Schenker Project: Culture, Race, and Music Theory in Fin-de-siècle Vienna. Oxford: Oxford University Press

Vienna

When did Schenker move to Vienna? ҃҃҃17:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe he was studying in Vienna by 1888. - kosboot (talk) 17:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Schenker arrived in Vienna in 1884, to begin his studies in law at the University in the fall-winter semester. 62.235.207.98 (talk) 12:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Urlinie

The statement that "Schenker's original conception of the Urlinie was of a line that rose from ^1 to reach its top note exactly midway through the piece, and then descended back to ^1" is pure fantasy: there is no such description of the Urline in any of Schenker's writings. The original conception was that some melodic lines (usually by conjunct movement, but not necessarily the most conspicuous ones) where at the origin (Ur) of the subsequent melodic developments of the work: it is, in a way, a motivic conception. It is only in his late writings (1930-1935) that Schenker said that the line should be descending, and supported by the characteristic harmonies I-V-I. 62.235.207.98 (talk) 12:32, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Biography or not?

This article should be a biographical article; information about his theory should go into the article Schenkerian Analysis. Unless someone comes up with a good reason, I intend to remove the sections on the analytical method and put them in the appropriate article. -- kosboot (talk) 04:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Developments after Schenker's death? That is not about Heinrich Schenker but is more appropriate for the article Schenkerian Analysis. -- kosboot (talk) 22:05, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I propose to remove the sections about the theory to Schenkerian analysis. If anyone has objections, let's discuss. -- kosboot (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Bibliography

I made a minor change in the list of Schenker's writings: the text about Eugen d'Albert in Die Zukunft 9 does not include "Eine Lebenskizze", which is by Eugen d'Albert himself. Schenker's text, titled merely "Eugen d'Albert", starts on p. 33. This is unimportant, but the faulty reference is often found in texts about Schenker (including another fault, "Lebellskizze" instead of "Lebenskizze"). Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Ukrainian?

Someone added the category of Jewish Ukrainian musicians. When Schenker was born, his town was part of Poland. Scholarly literature states that Schenker grew up knowing four languages, but Ukrainian was not one of them. I am therefore removing the category. - kosboot (talk) 15:18, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I once spoke of Schenker in the Conservatoire in Kiev and mentioned that he was born near Lvov (Lemberg). My hearers did not seem impressed and hardly were prepared to consider him Ukrainian. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

When Schenker was born, his town was part of Poland - Poland didn't exist at the time of his birth as the independent state. The place of birth (Vyshnivchyk) was (and is) an ethnic Ukrainian territory and not Polish. Vyshnivchyk was not a big town, hence it was unlikely he was growing isolated and didn't know Ukrainian language at all. Besides, Ukrainians were often referred as Rusyns or Ruthenians, which may have mislead researchers, as well. Finally, Schenker is present in other lists referred to Ukraine, therefore his inclusion to Category:Jewish_Ukrainian_musicians is highly recommended. Unas964 (talk) 17:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Schenker is not at all Ukrainian but identified mostly with Galician Jews. We know he and his family spoke Polish; nothing is ever mentioned about his speaking Ukrainian or Russian. Remember that although today the town is in Ukraine, it was not thought of such in Schenker's childhood years. - kosboot (talk) 17:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

nothing is ever mentioned about his speaking Ukrainian or Russian -- noone talked about Russian language: it is completely unrelated to the issue. Instead, Ukrainian birthplace location can be used as cross-reference for those interested in the history of Ternopil_Oblast, which could help to navigate in Misplaced Pages. I presume such paradigm is beneficial especially when it comes to such diverse historical region as Austria-Hungary was. "Galician Jews", "Austro-Hungarian Jews" and "Ukrainian Jews" - all look relevant (Polish and Russian are not).
Unas964 (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Geographical names?

I've noticed many Ukrainian towns/cities are inconsistently named in this article: some in Polish way (Wiśniowczyk, Podhajce), while others in German (Lemberg). Didn't check other geographical names, therefore recommend to check all them thoroughly.
Unas964 (talk) 17:36, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

They're named that way because that's the way Schenker would have known of them. (I'll refrain from making an editorial statement about how history is corrupted by nationalism.) - kosboot (talk) 17:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. There would be no reason to use "Lemberg" instead of "Lvov", was it not that it is the name that Schenker himself used and that will be found in his (and other) writings. Geographical names, and geography itself, has been quite mobile in these areas in the 20th century. When I mentioned in the Tchaikovsky Conservatoire in Kyiv, some 20 years ago, that Schenker was born in what in his time was Austria-Hungary, but was now Ukraine, few of the hearers (particularly among the elder ones) appeared to consider this an interesting information. But, like kosboot, I should better refrain from comments on nationalism. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 19:13, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

How the proposal to verify geographical names can be connected to nationalism? There could be only two options: use current names (completely unpractical for cross-references to contemporary documents) or the names assigned in that time. I have doubts Austria-Hungary widely approved Polish names hence pointend at the examples (e.g. German Misplaced Pages version gives "Podhayce" instead of "Podhajce").
Btw, "Lvov" is the most inappropriate name of the largest city in Western Ukraine (Galizia during the period): it's mere transliteration of Russian "Львов".
Unas964 (talk) 20:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with all that you have stated. It appears to me you are unaware of Schenker's biography and your opinions are not based on history but a desire to put a Ukrainian mark where there is none at all. - kosboot (talk) 01:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

You must have chosen the wrong thread to answer: here, I discuss geographical names used in the article and not Schenker's biography. Diverse opinions help to find the optimal solution if treated as a dialogue. You may have the point that Schenker nas no affiliation with Ukrainian people, but the fact remains that he was born on Ukrainian land. Therefore it is essential to give relevant name of the location, whether it is Wiśniowczyk or Vyshnivchyk, Podhajce or Pidhaitsi.
Back to geography - I found at least one other major inconsistency in the description of the tour with Johan Messchaert. Czech name "Ústí nad Labem" is used in the same sentence, as German "Brünn". German name for the former, Aussig or Außig, will match the shared formula (as in the case of Lemberg). I would also refrain from using Italian form "Trieste" instead of German "Triest".
Unas964 (talk) 07:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

And you are totally unaware that the notation of Ukraine did not exist in that town in that time. It was Poland. Another example of a famous person born in that town is the soprano Marcella Sembrich who, not Jewish, always thought of herself as Polish, never Ukrainian. - kosboot (talk) 12:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

You're right that the "notation of Ukraine" didn't exist, as well as the "notation of Poland". Both Polish and Ukrainian territories were occupied by different countries at the time. But that doesn't mean Poles and Ukrainians didn't exist either. The region Galicia where Vyshnivchyk is located was constituted by Ukrainian majority: it's their ethnic territory, which eventually and logically became a part of independent Ukraine, after centuries of Polish, Austrian and Soviet occupation. It wasn't monoethnic, of course, and there lived a lot of Poles and other nations. Lviv, for instance, was mostly Polish-Jewish. I see no contradiction in Marcella Sembrich and Heinrich Schenker born in Galicia, as well as other non-Ukrainians.
But, again, what does it have to do with geographical names?Unas964 (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Ewell, racism, Jackson

The current tempest about Jenker and the UNT journal of his methods and theory should be included at least a little bit. See, e.g., https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/unt-professor-sparks-controversy-over-racism-in-music-theory-world-11932353 Kdammers (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd say not by itself but in the context of what other people have said about those ideas of which we find distasteful. Personally, I've gone through a lot of Schenker and a lot of his contemporaries - and I feel he was pretty mild compared to what one finds in the newspapers of the time. (Losing World War I had a massive effect on Austrian public opinion.) But I've found only one article that talks about his political ideas and beliefs in the context of his times. Another belief I've held is that Schenker himself was an outsider (having come from what was Poland at the time) living in Vienna. A number of people have verbally agreed with this idea, but I've yet to see it in print. - kosboot (talk) 16:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

My own feeling is that while this article has no reason to enter the "tempest" between Philip Ewell and Timothy Jackson, Schenker's nationalism and racism must be mentioned.

After that, one might wonder whether he was the only one (certainly not, as Ewell himself stresses, mentioning Fétis, Riemann, Schoenberg, Webern, also Max Weber), whether he was mild compared to others (some of the authors just mentioned certainly were worse), etc. He obviously was utterly frustrated by all sorts of circumstances. One must also keep in mind that he was Jew and that, had he not died in 1935, he most probably would have shared the fate of his wife in Theresienstadt.

I don't think that this is the place to discuss Ewell's keynote, as published in MTO 26.2], or the answers in the JSS. Let me say however that Schenker's criticism in Der Tonwille 1 of almost anyone who is not German (the English, the French, the Italians, the Slavs, the Polish, the Czech, the Japanese, etc.) and his praising of great men of various origins (Moses, Christus, Buddha, Confucius, Laozi, Luther, Leibniz, Goethe, Schiller, Kant, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) do not appear typical of a biological racism against nonwhites.

But WP is not the place to settle such problems. Schenker's racism and his nationalism must be mentioned, perhaps with links to the publications mentioned above, but thats all, IMO. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 16:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, I looked up this article hoping to understand this controversy better Skrelk (talk) 00:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• WikiProject Classical music articles
• C-Class biography articles
• C-Class biography (musicians) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (musicians) articles
• Musicians work group articles
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs of musicians
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs of people
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class Music theory articles
• Unknown-importance Music theory articles
• WikiProject Music theory articles