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​By topic Categories and gender Gender-related arbitration cases

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Discussion of draft Wikimedia Universal Code of Conduct closing in nine days

A Wikimedia committee has posted a draft version of a Universal Code of Conduct at meta which, while it contains language about respecting the diversity of community members and condemning hate speech that appears in vandalism, does not appear to prohibit or otherwise mention racism, sexism, homophobia, or other forms of prejudice outside of vandalism and direct insults (in the English version, at least.) It does concern itself with, for example, defining repeated sarcasm as a form of harassment. In the page containing summaries of committee meetings the words "racism", "sexism", and "homophobia" also do not appear. (In the English version.)

Perhaps there is a good or practical reason for this; I'm not personally familiar with the high-level Wikimedia policy development process. But the discussion of the UCoC draft closes on October 7, after which the drafting committee will submit its recommendation to the Wikimedia Board of Trustees, so I am placing this message in this talk page in the hopes of ensuring that editors who can comment constructively on the absence of language providing guidance on non-insult, non-vandalism expressions of prejudice get a chance to comment. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 19:41, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The draft code doesn't mention sexism, racism, or homophobia directly but these are covered in the wording as I understand it:

Insults: This includes name calling, using slurs or stereotypes, and any attacks based on personal characteristics. Insults may refer to perceived characteristics like intelligence, appearance, ethnicity, race, religion, culture, caste, sexual orientation, gender, disability, age, nationality, political affiliation, or other characteristics. In some cases, repeated mockery, sarcasm, or aggression may qualify as insults collectively, even if individual statements would not.

JezGrove (talk) 20:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Age visibility for articles about women

Hi everyone I wondered if the insertion of DOB for women may present a form of gender imbalance in that women are more likely than men to be the victims of ageism and accompanying discrimination, and may prefer not to have their ages registered on wikipedia? Is there any option for the subjects of articles to request that their age is occluded, for this reason? My apologies if this has already been debated. Many thanks and cheers, Miles Quest (talk) 19:22, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

@Miles Quest: WP:BLPDOB has some info on standard practice for when BLP subjects request their DOB be omitted from their article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for your reply GorillaWarfare - will take a look - cheers Miles Quest (talk) 19:56, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Greta Thunberg

Greta Thunberg's article starts with the Mental Health section. There is a discussion about whether it is appropriate, as the typical WP pattern for health disclosure is at the end of the article under the Health Section. Many prominent male figures had mental conditions that began to appear in childhood, but their articles do not start with the section titled Mental Health. I am yet to see another article on a well-known person (not a mental health advocate) that begins with the section titled Mental Health. However, if it exists, it doesn't appear objective. Please provide your inputs if you are interested to discuss this in her "talk" page. https://en.wikipedia.org/Greta_Thunberg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Partizan Kuzya (talk • contribs) 18:24, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I can see both sides here - it's an important part of her early life, which is naturally the first section of the article, and it does naturally flow into the discussion of the activism, yet, yes, it does tend to throw shade at it. I think your suggestion of removing the subsection heading is a good compromise, it's otherwise a 2 paragraph section, we can live without it. --GRuban (talk) 18:57, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

→Thank you!!Partizan Kuzya (talk) 20:42, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it's better without the heading. SarahSV 21:02, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

→Please discuss your thoughts on Thunberg's Talk page if you have any comments. Partizan Kuzya (talk) 23:08, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: Thank you so much Sarah, looks like your comment and itemizing the options opened the support floodgates. When I grow up, I want to be just like you! --GRuban (talk) 16:50, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you all for the supoort in restoring neutrality! Partizan Kuzya (talk) 17:31, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Pop culture articles related to domestic abuse and gender bias

First of all, I want to apologise if this is not the right forum to write this, but I am hoping to find support and more information. I'm a longtime editor but used to focus more on old (pre-1960s) pop culture/art articles. In the recent years, I've also 'branched out' to more recent pop culture articles, especially related to domestic abuse cases, such as the Amber Heard/Johnny Depp case, and now, the Marilyn Manson case. Why I started doing this was because I noticed that whenever there's a woman who goes public with abuse allegations, the related WP articles seem to not represent the cases in a neutral way, but instead are often biased towards the person that is alleged to have been the abusive party. The line "innocent until proven guilty in a criminal court" seems to be often thrown around to prevent anything beyond a cursory mention of allegations, despite the fact that criminal convictions in domestic/intimate partner/child abuse cases are relatively rare due to multiple factors, none of which is that fake allegations would be prevalent. The same commitment to 'the truth' that makes editors block almost any mention of abuse allegations does often not go the other way, with almost any material that casts the accuser in a bad light being ok to add apparently.

Examples: the main editor of Manson's WP articles adding a section about Wood stating that Kobe Bryant was a rapist and wording it in a way that was misleading and deliberately made Wood look bad; the same user disputing Wood's statement that she was underage in an image and thus deleting this statement, and refusing to allow details of the allegations in the MM article; after Depp lost his libel case in the UK, editors seem to want to add minutiae on anti-Heard online petitions, or blatant attempts of Depp's team to smear her to the article... I can go on and give more details if you are interested. It also appears that quite a few Wikipedians seem to lose their ability to look at the big picture (e.g. the entire case from start to present day) or to have any basic source criticism when it comes to these articles. It also doesn't seem that many Wikipedians have any basic knowledge of domestic/intimate partner violence (e.g. that mutual abuse is rare but the abuser trying to frame self-defense as such is not; that fake allegations are very, very rare; that it's often difficult to take cases to court; that BDSM and abuse are different things entirely; that abusers can seem to be nice people to outsiders...), although of course this applies to the general population as well. Even in a case where there are multiple accusers making very serious allegations and politicians calling for a FBI investigation (e.g. Manson) or where the accusations have been proven in a civil court (Depp), it seems to be difficult to break through this bias.

Apologies if this is a bit rambling, but I guess I'm here to seek peer support and advice? Is there any type of Manual of Style for these types of cases? It would be great to discuss these issues with others as I often feel like the only editor trying to fight this bias in these articles, but I know I must not be alone. TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 13:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3