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https://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOPSYJ/TOPSYJ-3-9.pdf https://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOPSYJ/TOPSYJ-3-9.pdf


:Hi ], you have stumbled onto one of the most contentious issues on Misplaced Pages over the course of the past several years. Please see at least the last six months of discussion at ] (don't forget the archives!), ] with 50+ participants, and right now ]. If you still have questions after reading all this I'd be happy to answer. But in short, the scientific consensus is quite clear: it is as stated in the article. And it will not be relitigated here. ] (]) 00:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC) :Hi ], you have stumbled onto one of the most contentious issues on Misplaced Pages over the course of the past several years. Please see at least the last six months of discussion at ] (don't forget the archives!), ] with ~50 participants, and right now ]. If you still have questions after reading all this I'd be happy to answer. But in short, the scientific consensus is quite clear: it is as stated in the article. And it will not be relitigated here. ] (]) 00:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

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Racism

This article is racist pseudoscience. Leaving it up as it is right now is dangerous. It should be deleted or re-edited ASAP. 86.187.234.171 (talk) 12:19, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

The opening sentence is a friggin babble, doesn't make any sense. Replace/remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.30.242.184 (talk) 09:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Nowhere is race mentioned. The hell are you on about? It's not the encylopedia's fault for conclusions that people make from its pages. Information is information. 2601:645:C000:AE10:D863:FFE1:DD10:51FB (talk) 19:13, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd like to know how these two sentences mesh together: "The current scientific consensus is that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups." and "The mean correlation of IQ scores between monozygotic twins was 0.86, between siblings 0.47" That has not been my read of the literature at all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5754247/ not to mention plenty of scientists agree that there is a significant genetic component to IQ. (Pinker, Dawkins, of course Francis Crick) 108.54.98.54 (talk) 05:15, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

It's right there in the lead: "Although IQ differences between individuals are shown to have a large hereditary component, it does not follow that mean group-level disparities (between-group differences) in IQ necessarily have a genetic basis." For more on why group-level disparities are unlikely to be genetic in origin, see Nisbett et al. which is cited there. For a highly accessible explanation, see this article from The Guardian: ]. For the full discussion that resulted in the idea that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence being ruled WP:FRINGE, see this RfC: Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_70#RfC_on_race_and_intelligence. Generalrelative (talk) 06:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Claims of "scientific consensus"

My three-month topic ban expired at the end of July, so I'm able to comment here again, and it's about time we resolved this issue. Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Academic_consensus says, "A statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." I have examined the sources cited for this paragraph, as well as the similar paragraphs in the race and intelligence and Intelligence quotient article, and none of them state that there is a consensus for this view or that most scholars hold it. Nor do any of these sources state outright that there is no evidence for a genetic component; they all use more nuanced wording such as "no direct evidence".

I understand that the outcome of the RFC is widely understood as superseding policies such as WP:V and WP:NOR, but we should discuss whether that's a correct conclusion. I encourage user:Literaturegeek to comment here as well, because he's commented on this particular issue before. 2600:1004:B11E:10F3:5DE:11B4:ED6E:8A1C (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

You have already violated WP:CANVASSING twice on this thread, first by going to AmazingCosima's user talkpage to invite them to this discussion, and second by asking Literaturegeek to participate. Such violations are not good practice, especially for someone coming off a topic ban. NightHeron (talk) 23:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for opening this discussion @2600:1004:B11E:10F3:5DE:11B4:ED6E:8A1C:. Yes, this was my impression as well and hence why I felt my edit of the claim for "consensus" was very much justified. Obviously, a survey of almost a hundred experts is much higher quality evidence than four sources that don't seem to even support said claim in the first place. Also, I'd add that this topic has been willingly engaged by numerous non-controversial scientists and academics including many of whom disagree with the hereditarian viewpoint themselves, but are willing to engage in what they see as a worthwhile and valuable debate (James Flynn for instance: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047235217300958). AmazingCosima (talk) 18:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
I've added another citation which explicitly satisfies WP:RS/AC: "There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence; most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences." ] Note that these authors agree with Flynn that research into race and intelligence is defensible but still emphasize the consensus that group-level differences in test performance do not appear to be genetic in origin. If anyone would like to examine the RfC on this topic from last April, here it is: Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 70#RfC on race and intelligence Generalrelative (talk) 19:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The citation in question doesn't satisfy and I think you know this @Generalrelative:. "most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences" has no citations/references to the surveys of experts that would be necessary to substantiate this claim and as such, is an groundless and unfounded claim on the part of the researcher. I have already provided you with such a survey of experts (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289619301886). You have simply chosen to ignore it because you did not like the findings of it. Perhaps it makes you feel better to tell yourself that most experts are opposed to a partially hereditarian view, but as the most recent data (or at least the most recent I am aware of) has shown, that's simply not the case. The overwhelming majority of intelligence researchers think that genes, to some extent, explain racial gaps in intelligence testing. I look forward to future surveys of intelligence experts that will, of course, provide further refutation of your claims. :) AmazingCosima (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The quote supporting the statement of consensus is from Nature and is obviously RS. It exactly meets the standard in the sentence of WP:RS/AC that was quoted at the beginning of this thread. In your earlier edit summary you seemed to regard an article by Davide Piffer, who refers to African immigrants as "gorillas" and founded the pseudoscientific journal OpenPsych, as RS. You're entitled to have whatever POV you want, but the consensus of Misplaced Pages editors has already been established, and it doesn't support your POV or that of Davide Piffer.
Rindermann's so-called "survey of experts" has been discussed at length, and there's no need to reopen that discussion. Please see the RfC and related discussions at WP:RSN, WP:AN, and WP:ARCA. NightHeron (talk) 23:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
NightHeron is entirely correct. Rindermann et al. (2020) has already been discussed ad nauseam in the RfC. It was not found to be persuasive there so I see no reason it should be taken as persuasive here. Generalrelative (talk) 03:47, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
To the IP: Thank you for the ping. Yes, I enjoyed the RfC and considering and debating the sources, it was quite a stimulating debate. Unfortunately, my interest level in this topic area is very low and thus I have little to no motive to edit this topic area.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 05:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Unless I'm missing something, this editor is still topic banned. This was done with relatively wide consensus due to extensive and widespread disruptive behavior. There was no "three month topic ban", instead the block was three months, which is not the same thing. It appears the only reason the block was set at three months was because the IP range is so wide. Again, a WP:BLOCK is not the same as a WP:BAN.
This IP editor refuses to create an account, which is the reason this is so tedious to keep track of. The IP is fully aware of the hassle this shifting IP address causes others, and is actively taking advantage of this confusion.
This editor should not have posted this here, or on either user's talk page, because this falls under their topic ban. The will need to appeal their topic ban before making any relevant edits. This is explained at WP:TBAN. The IP editor has shown enough familiarity with Misplaced Pages's rules that they should already be aware of all of this. Grayfell (talk) 07:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

A critical analysis of the Heritability of IQ that might be useful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBc7qBS1Ujo

This youtube video details some criticisms of IQ Heritability that I don't see mentioned, such as poor controls when comparing groups of people, and a misunderstanding of what heritability means in IQ (the variance attributable to genetics, vs traits attributable to genetics).

DazzleNovak (talk) 23:05, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

The notion of racial IQ is fundamentally bogus. Races don't have IQ's - individuals do. ←Baseball Bugs carrots04:06, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Individuals only meaningfully have IQ scores if we presume that IQ testing is consistent and fair. The video does a good job of explaining, among other things, why that presumption of fairness and consistency should not be taken for granted. While that video is very good, it is not WP:RS. For our purposes it is still useful, because the description has an extensive list of citations. While most of the cited sources are reliable, they are mostly WP:PRIMARY, so using them is tricky. Grayfell (talk) 04:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Then it's even worse - they're confusing IQ with actual intelligence. The only thing an IQ test does is to measure your ability to take an IQ test. ←Baseball Bugs carrots14:49, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Some of James Flynn's commentary on Lewontin's analogy in 'Between-group heritability' should be added

James Flynn analyses Lewontin's analogy in Race, IQ, and Jensen, and qualifies it somewhat. I tried to add some Flynn's thoughts but a user (see below) pointed out that I made the mistake of misleadingly giving the impression that Flynn agreed with Jensen. So I think we should try again to add some of Flynn's qualification, while explaining how Flynn's view differs to Jensen. Link to reversion of my previous edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Heritability_of_IQ&oldid=997785487 @Generalrelative: Please can you help rewrite the edit you reverted to make it not misrepresent the source? 80.6.233.101 (talk) 17:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me about this section (which really needed a complete overhaul per e.g. WP:QUOTEFARM). There really was no need to focus on Lewontin's 50-year-old argument here at all, nor Jensen's critique of it, nor Flynn's critique of both. Instead I've imported and edited down a bunch of relevant info from the current version of Race and intelligence. I hope that this makes sense. I would of course be happy to discuss these WP:BOLD changes with you or any other interested party. Best, Generalrelative (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

On Consensus About Heritability of IQ

The article claims that there is a "consensus" about genetics not playing a role in racial differences in IQ, however, none of the sources cited claim that there is a consensus that this is the case. In fact, numerous reliable surveys and sources who that this NOT the case. Rindermann, Becker, and Coyle (2020) emailed 1237 researchers who had either published intelligence related work in an academic journal or who were a member of an organization related to the study of individual differences in intelligence and found that 49% of the Black-White IQ gap was caused be genes. Only 16% of these experts believed that none of the Black-White IQ gap was due to genes, and only 6% believed that the gap was entirely due to genes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289619301886

Similarly, Snyderman et al. 1987 emailed 1,020 academics in this literature, and the results were as such: 45% of respondents said the Black-White IQ gap was due to genes and the environment, 24% said there wasn’t enough data to say, 17% didn’t respond, 15% said it was due only to the environment, and 1% said that it was due entirely to genes.

http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~spihlap/snyderman@rothman.pdf

It is usually advised not to use primary sources, but not a single source that is either cited in the article or that exists claims that there is a "consensus" that the black-white IQ gap is only due to the environment. This is why I am giving primary sources as evidence to show that what is claimed in this article is not the case. In general, Misplaced Pages should work to establish reliable and neutral sources for claims, as opposed to simply stuffing poor ones that agree with a given narrative. Dashoopa (talk) 00:11, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

P.S. Furthermore, there are several secondary sources as well that claim that there is not a consensus. Here is a massive literature review on heritability of racial differences in IQ which found that the group differences are between 50 to 80% heritable.

https://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOPSYJ/TOPSYJ-3-9.pdf

Hi Dashoopa, you have stumbled onto one of the most contentious issues on Misplaced Pages over the course of the past several years. Please see at least the last six months of discussion at Talk:Race and intelligence (don't forget the archives!), this RfC last year with ~50 participants, and right now this pending decision at AE. If you still have questions after reading all this I'd be happy to answer. But in short, the scientific consensus is quite clear: it is as stated in the article. And it will not be relitigated here. Generalrelative (talk) 00:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
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