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hey, who adds that sentence about "apologise"? please cite Rasulzade's article, not Atabeki! Elsanaturk 13:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Atabaki is a professional historian, very reliable. Also, it is the letter that is cited...Azerbaijani 16:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Elsanaturk, you cannot edit Misplaced Pages based on POV. You cannot remove information you do not like.Azerbaijani 06:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear user this azerbaijani is deleting facts and spoil the article with grammatic mistakes Elsanaturk 16:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Rasulzadeh quote

There is a real problem with this statement: "According to Touraj Atabaki, it was in his exile that Rasulzade admitted in an article that he wrote that Albania (referring to Caucasian Azerbaijan) was different than Azerbaijan (referring to Iranian Azerbaijan) and declared his eagerness to do "whatever is in his power to avoid any further discontent among Iranians"."

The problem is, that it is clearly taken out of context and leads us to believe smth, which Rasulzadeh did not say or meant.

Here's the fuller quote, with context, from prof. Touraj Atabaki's book, page 25:

"Adopting the name of Azerbaijan for the area of southern and eastern Transcaucasia soon caused concern in Iran and Azerbaijan . Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh, the founder of the Republic of Azerbaijan in Transcaucasia, understood -- during these early days -- the territory of this new Azerbaijan to consist of "the Baku and Elisavetpol gubernias, the southern districts of the Tiflis and Yerevan gubernias, and the country of Zakatal". Later, when the republic had been toppled by the Bolsheviks and Rasulzadeh had been forced to seek asylum abroad, he admitted that this choice of a name for the new republic had been a mistake. In an article which he wrote on the history of the short-lived Republic of Azerbaijan, Rasulzadeh acknowledges that: "Albania (the former Soviet Azerbaijan) is different from Azerbaijan (Iranian Azerbaijan)." Moreover, in a letter to Taqizadeh, he declared his eagerness to do "whatever is in his power to avoid any further discontent among Iranians". However, if the Republic of Azerbaijan, was the name adopted by the Muslim Musavatists, when the bolsheviks established their rule over the region, they did not hesitate to retain the same name. On 28 April 1920, the government of Musavatists was overthrown b ythe revolutionary Bolsheviks, and an independent Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan was proclaimed. "

So, what do we get from this fuller quote? First of, Touraj Atabaki is an Iranian nationalist, and is somewhat partial and sensitive -- he also appears to have a favorable view of Reza Shah, which for a book published in Europe and US in the year 2000, is rather revealing of whom his loyalties are to.

Second, and most importantly, despite discussing such an important and contentious point as naming of a whole country and nation, Prof. Atabaki cites only one source -- both endnotes 59 and 60 are referring to a 1966 book by R.Ramazani -- and he quotes very briefly, with those quotes being clearly taken out of context and misunderstood.

For example, in order to understand what is meant by the offer to do "whatever is in his power to avoid any further discontent among Iranians", we absolutely must have the context. 1) Did Rasulzadeh offer any solutions to choose from? 2) When did he do so, which are the dates, that Atabaki conveniently ignores? 3) Also, what POWER did Rasulzadeh have if he was never a president (this post didn't even exist in ADR), Prime-Minister, minister or judge in ADR? He was only Musavat party chairman -- and the Azerbaijani Parliament had several numerous fractions and parties, including Dashnaks, Mensheviks, etc. 4) Moreover, was this quote even relevant to the name of "Azerbaijan" -- or was it just a normal diplomatic note between two old friends, who wanted to normalize or improve relations between their countries, and thus had some, however limited, tools at their disposal -- like writing letters to someone, and other acts, commonly referred to as "lobbying"? Forgive me, but for lack of context and basic details like dates, which prof. Atabaki for some reason did not supply, I argue that the quote should be removed altogether due to it being misleading, inconclusive and out of context.

The very same concerns are eminating from the former quote, "Albania (the former Soviet Azerbaijan) is different from Azerbaijan (Iranian Azerbaijan)". Well, of course Caucasian Albania was different from (South) Azerbaijan! Caucasian Albania is a generally accepted name by which the North Azerbaijan went from IV century BC until VII century AD, albeit at times lands north of Araxes river were included into the geographic and political notion of Azerbaijan. However, since the fall of Caucasian Albania to Arabs in 705 AD, and it being generally named by Arabs as "Arran" (which is a derivative of "Albania" - "Aluank" - "Alpan", although the name of mythical king Aran, founder of Caucasian Albania, is featured prominently in local mythology), mostly only towards the lands between Kura and Araxes river (that is, not including Shirvan, some Mughan, Talish and North Daghestan). As multiple medieval and later sources prove, the name "Azerbaijan" applied well north of Araxes river (e.g., see academician Iqrar Aliyev, prof. Yampolsky, Dr. Sisoyev, Great soviet Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Iranica, and a host of Arab and other scholars).

Hence, by this quote, what is obvious is Rasulzadeh's brief explanation of ancient history of his nation and country, and that for longest times it was not the name of Azerbaijan, but Caucasian Albania that was prevalent. However, after the demise of Albania, everything started to change, most notably in 12th-13th centuries, when a powerful Azerbaijan Atabek State of Ildezids (Ildegoz) was founded and whose powerbase was in Naxcivan (north of Araxes), with capital being in Barda and Naxcivan, and an additional residence in Ganja -- all north of Araxes. It's possible that Rasulzadeh might have not know many of these facts -- he was not a specialist on ancient history.

Thus, I argue that this quote too should be removed altogether due to it being misleading, inconclusive and out of context. --AdilBaguirov 17:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

No POV. Everything you said was POV, especially your claim that we can tell Atabaki is a nationalist from that quote...thats just laughable...Also, from the quote you posted, it does not show that anything has been taken out of context.Azerbaijani 18:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

But you have not provide the whole context of Rasulzade's quote. It is just a line taken out of some apparently large text. Can you quote the whole paragraph where the quote was taken from? Grandmaster 19:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

How is it taken out of context? The quote is exactly the way Atabaki has it, that Rasulzadeh said that Albania is different from Azerbaijan. I'm putting it back in. You have to discuss things first before making unilateral decisions.Azerbaijani 19:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

How is this taken out of context: In an article which he wrote on the history of the short-lived Republic of Azerbaijan, Rasulzadeh acknowledges that: "Albania (the former Soviet Azerbaijan) is different from Azerbaijan (Iranian Azerbaijan)."? Please elaborate. Nothing is taken out of context here. Secondly, why do you keep removing the Goltz quote? He is a reliable third party source. Plus, Adil's long essay is all POV and original research, it is no basis for argument.Azerbaijani 19:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

user:Azerbaijani, the quotes from Rasulzadeh prove absolutely nothing -- they are taken out of context and misinterpreted by Atabaki, and misused by you. Likewise, Goltz's quote is irrelevant, as he is not a historian, but a great journalist and contemporary witness, chronicler. What happened in 1918-1920, is not his specialty. I wrote everything correctly and logically, and you have been unable or unwilling to offer any proof that these quotes are not taken out of context and not misused. This is why we have this Talk page, and this is why before removing anything, I have provided all the arguments and research. Please follow the Misplaced Pages's format and be constructive. --AdilBaguirov 22:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

A) Goltz is a very reliable source, and B) The quote was not taken out of context. I already caught you in one lie (regarding the Barthold quote) and now you are trying to say this quote was taken out of context. It was not, the quote is put in straight from the book exactly, there is no possibility of it being taken out of context.Azerbaijani 23:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, here's the full quote from Goltz, which perhaps should be quoted more precisely:

"Rasulzade, meanwhile, was politically long gone. Declining Stalin's invitation to play Quisling in the new order, he was thrown in a Moscow prison for two years before managing to escape (or being allowed to escape) via Finland to Germany. There he remained throughout World War II--another aspect of his career the new nationalists did not like to talk about much -- before retiring to Turkey, where he became involved in the politics of the marginal pan-Turkic movement. He died in Ankara in 1955, a broken man."

As you can see, Goltz's info about, for example, 2 years imprisonment, diverges SIGNIFICANTLY from the info of our Wiki page, as edited by user:Azerbaijani. So why such selective quoting?

Lower on the same page 18, his most important phrase is quoted by Goltz, which must become part of the Misplaced Pages page: "'Bir Kere Yukselen Bayrak Bir Daha Inmez!' or 'The Flag Raised Once Cannot Be Lowered!' was the phrase written beneath Rasulzade's portrait."

As we see, Goltz makes it clear that not only was this towards the end of Rasulzade's life, but the unspecified "movement" was MARGINAL, and was pan-Turkic, not pan-Turkist. Pan-Turkic movement is like pan-European movement -- works towards greater cultural, social, humanitarian, perhaps economic and political, links. Yet in the way user:Azerbaijani misuses it, it sounds different. In any case, the quote must be quoted and cited properly, and in a more appropriate way --AdilBaguirov 22:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no quarrel by putting that he spent two years in a Moscow prison (when was he put in prison so I could put in in the correct place of the paragraph). I'll put that in myself. Also, Golts clearly said that Rasulzadeh involved himself in the Pan Turkist movement, and our article here says participated in pan Turkist politics, which is the same thing (we can change "politics" to "movement" if that pleases you). Secondly, pan Turkists is the same as Pan Turkic, but again, if you want to change specific words that dont really make a difference, go ahead. Infact, I'll do it myself.Azerbaijani 23:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I put in exactly what Goltz says, and again, we can add the imprisonment thing also when we figure out what time of his life that happened in (1920 or later?). Also, I did not selectively quote anything, most of the article was not written by mean, I merely sourced Goltz over the subject matter that needed sourcings, likewise, instead of blaming me, you could blame the number of people who also edited the article yet did not put that he was imprisoned for two years.Azerbaijani 23:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I didn't mean to blame you, user:Azerbaijani, for the article. However, Goltz's whole paragraph is incorrect -- not only does he diverge on 2 year imprisonment with current Wiki page, but also omits to mention Romania, for example, as a country in which Rasulzade lived. There is nothing on his wife either -- and thus special connection to Poland. Hence, Goltz's quote is not well-placed -- please find a more authoritative and correct quote.

Likewise, there is a difference between Pan-Turkist (dominated by Turkey) and Pan-Turkic (equality for all Turkic people). And there is difference between a marginal movement, and more loud and authoritative "politics". For example, I participate in the MoveOn.org movement, but does that mean I am Democrat or otherwise participate in US politics? No. --AdilBaguirov 23:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

You have unilaterally removed sourced information and deleted a well referenced article. I just changed all that to what you said and you reverted me!Azerbaijani 23:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

First off, you have contributed very poorly sourced information -- I had to go and verify them all, make the quotes exact. Secondly, it is not enough to bring quotes -- they have to relevant and correct. Goltz's is not - his info diverges with Misplaced Pages's page, and omits other important info. Moreover, there is no proof of "broken man" -- seems more like a slang, journalistic jargon, not actually attesting to the financial situation of Rasulzade at the end of his life.

Third, the Atabaki quote is discussed AT LENGTH above, see there.

Fourth, both sections "Exile" and previous "Azerbaijan Democratic Republic" have clear repetitions. I have removed the repetition, whilst you keep on including it -- along with other spelling mistakes of yours. Compare the following:

FROM: Azerbaijan Democratic Republic "but in August 1920, after soviet army crashed the rebellions of Ganja, Karabakh, Zagatala and Lankaran, lead by ex-officers of Azerbaijani army, Rasulzade was arrested and brought to Baku. It was only due to his earlier rescue of Joseph Stalin in 1905 that Rasulzade was released and taken from Baku. For the next two years, Rasulzade worked as the press representative at the Commissariat on Nations in Moscow. He was seconded to St.Petersbourg in 1922 from where escaped to Finland and never returned."

FROM: Exile "In August 1920, Rasulzade was arrested by the Soviets. It was only due to his old friendship with Joseph Stalin, dating back to their revolutionary activity in tsarist Russia that Rasulzade was released and taken from Baku. For the next two years, Rasulzade worked as the press representative at the Commissioner on Nations in Moscow. He was seconded to Finland in 1922 and never returned." --AdilBaguirov 23:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not write these portions of the article! Why are you blaming everything on me? And no, you did not delete the repition, you deleted the whole last paragraph! Also, as I said above, your comment about the Atabaki quote is pure POV and OR, please read Wiki rules regarding these issues.Azerbaijani 23:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

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