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"Persian" vs. Iranian deities

@Aryzad:, can you explain what your objection to the use of "Persian" for these deities is based on? The article linked to is Persian mythology; furthermore, "Persian" and "Iranian" are largely synonymous, as far as I know. My only concern is consistency.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:15, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi there. Both "Persian" and "Iranian" can be used to refer, for example, the Safavids or Sassanids; But not here. Calling those deities "Persian" is like calling Sogdian language an Eastern Persian language, which is wrong. When Zoroastrianization of Persis (Persia proper) took place, the Sogdians were Zoroastrian for centuries. Aryzad (talk) 18:51, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Is there any article or a book that you are aware of that discusses the Persianization of the Iranian people and the development of the Persian language as a result of interaction of other Iranian languages? Hiesen2 (talk) 16:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

List of notable people from Sogdia

Hi User:HistoryofIran, as I explained, the article is about the geographical area and Iranian civilisation, whose culture and language survived until the late 10th century Because the article, and the list, are not about an ethnic group or nation (which Sogdia never was) it is perfectly legit to include, e.g., Avicenna and the others you deleted in the listof "notable people from Sogdia", viz. notable "Sogdians". Consider also that this is an article about an ancient civilisation and that is simply a list. So, at any rate, I don't understand why fussing over this.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Please read the article - it is just much about the people as its about the geographical area. Sogdia was also a geographical region indeed, but 'Sogdian' is exclusively referred to the people that actually were ethnic Sogdians, a people with their own language, culture, and whatnot. Please show a source that uses Sogdian as a geographical term, and not an ethnic one - which also goes for claims that Avicenna or a Greek king like Antiochus are Sogdians. All in all, this is pure WP:OR. Also, please be nice, this is not okay . Neither is your continued edit warring - you have to reach WP:CONSENSUS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

No man, that would be an article about the Sogdian people, which may be created one day. But this is an article about the civilisation and the geographical area. I really don't understand why you are fretting about this. I even changed the section's title to appease your nitpicking (though I don't think it was necessary, because the meaning of "Sogdian" in "notable Sogdians" in this article must be clear, and because Iranians from Sogdia, well, were "Sogdians").--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 21:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

LouisAragon, you reverted my edits, fair. I am happy that you showed interest in this matter. Could you tell us whether you agree with including people from Sogdia (specifically: Narshakhi, Avicenna, Bukhari) in the section about notable people from Sogdia/Sogdians of this article about the ancient geographical region (and civilisation) of Sogdia? Could you explain why? Also, take notice that with your action you deleted "Antiochus I Soter" (and the sources for the claim) which was part of the stable version of this article.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 21:12, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• "'Sogdians: Inhabitants of Sogdiana (Sughd), mentioned by Strabo (XI, 11, 2–4) and Ptolemy (VI, 12). Although previously under Achaemenid, Seleucid, Graeco-Bactrian, and nomadic (Saka?) Kangju rule, a more distinct Sogdian culture, typified by agriculture, commercial trade, and use of the Sogdian script, emerged during the 1st–3rd centuries. Increased irrigation, urbanization, and the development of literature, art, and architecture, coupled with continued expansion of trade networks (northward into Chach and the steppes, eastward into China), resulted in Sogdian cultural and economic flourishing during the 4th–6th centuries." -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdians" in Oliver Dickens. Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity. Oxford Universtiy Press.
• "Sogdian religion: The indigenous religion of the Sogdians was a local form of Zoroastrianism with a pantheon of deities, including the Babylonian goddess Nana, and thus distinct from orthodox Sasanian Zoroastrianism, where Ahura Mazda (Ohrmazd) predominated. Religious art was influenced by Hellenistic, Mesopotamian, and Indian iconography and murals from Panjikent give evidence of localized Mithra-worship and a Sogdian funerary cult. Like Persian Zoroastrians, Sogdians utilized ossuaries for burials, but fire-altars were much less common than in orthodox Zoroastrianism." -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdian religion" in Oliver Dickens. Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity. Oxford Universtiy Press.
• "Sogdiana (Sughd, Sogdia): Traditional homeland of the Sogdians in Transoxiana. Narrowly defined, it comprises the Zarafshan and Qashqadarya river valleys, more broadly all territory between the Oxus and Jaxartes rivers. Important Sogdian cities included Bukhara, Samarkand, Nasaf, Kish, and Panjikent. Previously ruled by the Achaemenids, Seleucids, Graeco-Bactrians, and Kangju, Sogdiana emerged as an independent kingdom during the Chinese Han dynasty. The arrival of Huns (Chionites, Kidarites, Hephthalites) c.350 politically disrupted Sogdiana, but the agricultural economy and population grew in the 5th–6th centuries." -- Mark Dicken (2018) "Sogdiana (Sughd, Sogdia)" in Oliver Dickens. Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity. Oxford Universtiy Press.

I thus fail to see how historic figures such as Antiochus I Soter and Avicenna belong on this page. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

What you posted is not present in the article, which is about the historical geographical area and civilisation. But anyway, like the citation says, Inhabitants of Sogdiana, that is what Avicenna, Bukhari and their ancestors were. Then it is obvious that, as Iranians from Sogdia, they were "Sogdians", but "Sogdian" was never a nationality or an ethnicity.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 21:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

So Polish people who live in Poland are not actually an ethnic group? Just a term for people living in Poland? That is the kind of argument you’re using. Again, please read the article. HistoryofIran (talk)

Replying to your: So Polish people who live in Poland are not actually an ethnic group? Just a term for people living in Poland? That is the kind of argument you’re using. Again, please read the article Polish people, who like you said mostly live in Poland, are a self-determined ethnic group whose homeland is a nation (with a long history at that). Sogdia was never a nation, we know little to nothing about what "Sogdians" (i.e. Iranians from Sogdia, like Avicenna, Bukhari, etc.) thought of themselves, and, again, the article is about the geographical area and the ancient civilisation, not the "Sogdian people", their "ethnicity" or their "nation".--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

The article and sources listed here contradict you though. Also, you’re yet to show a source for your claims, including the one about Antiochius, a Greek king based in Western Asia, being Sogdian. HistoryofIran (talk)

They do not. The article is about Sogdia, and the sources I provided prove those people were from Sogdia, and no passerby either (e.g., Avicenna's father was from Balkha, but his mother was from Sogdia, born before c. 960; Bukhari's line can be traced back two generations to Sogdian farmers, who lived there before the Muslim invasion). It is you who wrongly interprets the "region of Sogdia" / "Sogdian" as meaning a nation or self-defined ethnic group. I even proposed to change the section's title from "Notable Sogdians" to "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia", though I still think it'd be funny. P.S. The "sources for my claims" are in the material you deleted, and don't attribute to me elements I did not add, namely Antiochius.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You are more or less repeating yourself now. Also, since when did having a mum from Sogdia make someone Sogdian? And since when did having descendants of another ethnic group make you part of said one? Why cant you just list sources that actually support your claims? I.e Avicenna, Antiochus etc are referred to as Sogdian? This still is still pure WP:OR. I think we’re done here. HistoryofIran (talk)

You are more or less misunderstanding and mixing up things now.

First problem: adding people from Sogdia to a list about people form Sogdia: res ipsa loquitur, but I tried to explain it to you nevertheless.

Problem you just raised: you said: since when did having a mum from Sogdia make someone Sogdian? And since when did having descendants of another ethnic group make you part of said one? I did not opt for the list's criterion, I just followed it, and btw, I think it is fair to include someone whose parent was from Sogdia, because this is simply a list about an ancient civilisation, readers just like to have things grouped, follow new links and learn more things. I don't get why you are fretting so much about this. I won't explain the same things over again though. It is not "pure WP:OR" (if you really want to nitpick so much) because the list is about people from Sogdia, and the people I added are from Sogdia. Again, sir, I provided multiple sources for my addition, which you deleted. We are not "done" here, though perhaps that is what you wish .--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 22:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Just because you don't get your say doesn't mean I'm nitpicking. This is twice you've randomly said it now - Comment on the comment, not the person. You haven't explained anything except your own opinion, which is not supported by neither the (1) sources listed here, (2) nor the article, which is to no surprise why you are unable to just list even one source that support your claims. Also, some more sources just for the lolz;

The Sogdians inhabited the fertile valleys, surrounded by deserts, that are situated between the Amu Darya and the Syr Darya, and in particular the valley of the Zarafshan, today located in Uzbekistan and Tadjikistan. Speaking an Iranian language, this people is attested for more than fifteen centuries, from the inscriptions of the Achaemenid sovereigns in the 6th century BCE to the texts of the Arab geogra�phers of the 10th century CE, which note the irreversible decline of the cultural and linguistic identity of the Sogdians. Even though they founded Samarkand and Bukhara, the Sogdians have remained largely unknown to the general public, for they afterward melted into the mass of Islamic Iranian-speaking peoples. - p 2, Sogdian Traders, Étienne de la Vaissière.

The Avestan language is similar to the languages of the ancient eastern Iranians, for example, the Bactrians, the Sogdians and the Khwarazmians; thus Zoroaster and the Avesta can be placed in the eastern regions of ancient Iran, present-day central Asia. - p 71, Continuity in Iranian Identity, Davaran

--HistoryofIran (talk) 22:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

RfC

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Should we include people from Sogdia (i.e. people born before 1000 in Sogdia or elsewhere to parents from Sogdia) in this article's section called "Notable Sogdians" or "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia"? --Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 21:20, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose. To anyone seeing this, please read the section above. This is starting to get disruptive. Two veteran editors are against you, as well as the sources listed here and the article itself. Yet you proceeded to do this? --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Support. As pointed out, this is an article about a historical geographical area, not a nation or an ethnic group. The title of the section "Notable Sogdians" (which has been proposed to be changed to "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia" to calm HistoryofIran) must be intended as people from Sogdia, which is the case of Avicenna and Bukhari, both born here before AD 1000, and whose ancestry can be traced back to Sogdia. We have multiple sources supporting the claim they were from Sogdia. I could understand opposition to mentioning they were from Sogdia in their own article, but I don't see why not including these verified pieces of information in the list. --Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 23:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

This is starting to get weird. The problem is a fundamental misunderstanding (on your part) of what the article is about, and of what the section "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia"'s list is about. The sources you provided, which are not included in the article, prove nothing, except that Sogdia was a historical geographical area inhabited by Iranians, and that the inhabitants of "Sogdia" were known as "Sogdians". There is a difference between this and a self-defined ethnicity, or even nation, which Sogdia never was. With that being said, the sources I provided, which you deleted, justify the addition of all people I added, including Avicenna and Bukhari, who were born in said geographical area, and, further, whose ancestry is rooted there.

I again point out that I proposed to change the title of the section from "Notable Sogdians" to "Notable Sogdians/people from Sogdia" to appease your nitpicking, even though I think it'd be funny.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 22:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Repeating yourself again and now even falsely claiming that those sources support you. Not to mention you are commenting on me again (this is like what, the fifth time in 2 hours?). Go on, do it again and I will gladly report you. Perhaps you will be topic banned from here as well? --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Only because you are failing to understand again. "List of people from Sogdia" = content: people from Sogdia. What is it you don't get? No, it's you who's falsely accusing me to be a liar. The sources I provided do support my additions, showing those people's origin.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 22:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You: Not to mention you are commenting on me again (this is like what, the fifth time in 2 hours?). Go on, do it again and I will gladly report you. Perhaps you will be topic banned from here as well? this is a personal attack. I advise you to stop this behavior.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 22:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as that is inconsistent with WP:NOR and WP:V. Being born in does not make one ; so unless there are actual sources to support the person being actually part of this civilisation/ethnic group/whatever, then inclusion is inappropriate. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:35, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

  Looking through a few more examples, this is obvious OR (someone's mother being does not make one , either), and the only reason I'm not removing it entirely right now is out of some certainly unwarranted bit of respect for process.RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:40, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

• Neutral As it is clear from WP:RS if there is reliable secondary source that state than the suggested people group are indeed Sogdians than it should be included else discarded🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ 06:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Luwanglinux, RandomCanadian, even if the meaning of the list or what Sogdia was is not clear enough: this is a source stating that the mother of Avicenna, who was born in Sogdia, was Tajik (i.e. a descendant of "Sogdians") and this is to support that he was Sogdian

I even found Baumer claiming Al-Farabi was probably a Sogdian, so now I propose we include him as well. For Bukkhari: if the fact his ancestors were 8th-century Sogdian farmers kidnapped from Sogdia and converted to Isam, and that he was born in Sogdia, isn't enough to consider him a "Sogdian", I will provide some sources for him too.

I point out this is a list about an extinct civilisation, our sole purpose must be inform and entertain the reader. I would not add that these individuals were "Sogdians" or partly "Sogdian" (such as Alexander IV of Macedon, which Canadian randomly deleted without discussing) to their own article. But is fine to have the information here. I propose we change the title of the section, if necessary (to "Notable Sogdians and people from Sogdia").--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 10:01, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Read WP:RS. Most of the citations arent even reliable and half of them doesnt even state that they wre Sogdian. More WP:OR. Only the bit about Farabi is fine, but his origin is heavily disputed - read his article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:29, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Henry Corbin and Giovanni Caselli are not reliable? They state: Avicenna was only the most famous of many Sogdian scientists and Each author naturally retains traces of his cultural origin: Avicenna was a Sogdian whose family came from Bactria. Those are the sources supporting the claim. Regarding Farabi, you must take in consideration this is not Farabi's article, just a list about people from Sogdia in Sogdia's article. We won't change his article. The claim is supported, and I think it's fine to include Farabi, in addition to Avicenna.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 10:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Giovanni no. Corbin yes, but he never stated what you wrote. This is taken out of context, he is quoting someone, but I assume you didn't know that? Regardless, the vast majority of sources call Avicenna a Persian, read WP:UNDUE. Also, Canadian didnt 'randomly' remove anything, the fact that you are trying to argue a son of Alexander the Great as a Sogdian is next level WP:OR. Being Sogdian is still an ethnicity, as stated by these various sources and the article itself. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

References

1. Amr, Samir S.; Tbakhi, Abdelghani. "Ibn Sina (Avicenna): The Prince Of Physicians". Annals of Saudi Medicine, NCBI. Archived from the original on 15 September 2021. Retrieved 15 September 2021. father, Abdullah, was from the city of Balkh and worked as a local governor for a village near Bukhara. His mother was a Tadjik woman named Sitara.
2. Corbin, Henri (1998). The Voyage and the Messenger Iran and Philosophy. Translated by Joseph H. Rowe. North Atlantic Books. p. 40. ISBN 9781556432699. Each author naturally retains traces of his cultural origin: Avicenna was a Sogdian whose family came from Bactria
3. Caselli, Giovanni (2004). La lirica italiana e l'irredentismo da Goffredo Mameli a Gabriele d'Annunzio. Zeb89 productions SAS Kenneth Caselli. p. 54. ISBN 8875390355. Avicenna was only the most famous of many Sogdian scientists
4. Guarnieri, Massimo (2019). Da Habilis a Jobs: due milioni di anni con la tecnologia. Società Editrice Esculapio. p. 220. ISBN 9788835303930. Abū 'Alī al-Husayn ibn 'Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā (latinizzato in Avicenna, Sogdiana, 980–1037) fu uno scienziato universale, uno dei più grandi di ogni tempo e massimo medico medioevale
5. Dr. Richard C. Foltz (1999). "IRANIAN PEOPLES & RELIGION The Role of Central Asian Peoples in the Spread of World Religions". Concordia University. With their international connections Sogdians knew foreign languages, and many were literate. They were often engaged as interpreters and translators. It was Sogdian scribes who translated most of the religious texts of Buddhism, Manichaeism, and Christianity into the various languages of the Silk Route, from Prakrit, Aramaic, or Parthian into Bactrian, Tokharian, Khotanese, Turkish or Chinese, either via Sogdian or directly. As Central Asia became Islamicized beginning in the eighth century, the Sogdians gradually adopted the Persian language and Iranian Islam. Within two centuries Transoxiana indeed became the center of the Persian cultural world under the Samanid dynasty. Rudaki, Farabi, Khwarazmi, and Avicenna are just a few of the Central Asians who stand out in medieval Islam. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
6. Baumer, Christoph (2016). The History of Central Asia The Age of Islam and the Mongols. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 42. ISBN 9781838609405. Abu Nasr Muhammad al-Farabi (ca. 870–950) was a renowned philosopher and scientist with a keen interest in the theory of knowledge. Probably a Sogdian from the great merchant city of Farab, now called Otrar, in southern Kazakhstan

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