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Information Research Department

Hello Astrophobe, it looks like your recent edit here was fully justified. But there is a whole paragraph on Russell at Information Research Department#Bertrand Russell that might be worth integrating. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:42, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

It's very possible that material about this could be worked into the article, and I definitely have no objection to that! I encourage you to work some of that material in. I think the best way to do it, in a way that's not undue, would be to associate it with material on the specific books in question, Why Communism Must Fail, What Is Freedom?, and What Is Democracy? Unless there are RS supporting some association between a much larger body of Russell's work with the IRD, then I highly doubt that it will belong in the lead. - Astrophobe (talk) 19:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Quite agree not lead-worthy. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:09, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Omit "United Kingdom" infobox

Should I omit "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" on birthplace and death place parameter on the infobox, I really don't know what I should replace instead of "United Kingdom" parameter? --49.150.116.127 (talk) 12:08, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Wales is perfectly fine - that's where he was born and died. No one would ever refer to these places as being in the UK in common usage, so per COMMONNAME we're good with Wales. I shall change it now. Blue Square Thing (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

In fact Wales, for his place of birth, is problematical (see footnote ). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

So, was Monmouthshire in Wales in 1872? We previously had a form that was an acceptable compromise. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

UK is perfectly acceptable in this case. Whether Monmouthshire was "in Wales" in 1872 was a contentious matter, and there is no obvious need to include it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:38, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

The only slight issue is that including UK after Monmouthshire suggests that Wales, after Caernarfonshire, was not in UK? 15:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

It might be unquestionable for removing the "UK" from birthplace parameter. --Aesthetic Writer (talk) 14:49, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits

The most notable combined effect of these edits yesterday and today was to remove most of the lead section. I've reverted them so there can be further discussion here, if necessary. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be some ongoing disagreement as to whether Russel should be described as British or Welsh, although he could easily, of course, be both. I'd just like to point out that, despite this, the article has no fewer than 28 categories that use "English" and only 6 that use "British". The only one that uses "Welsh" is Category:English people of Welsh descent. So some basic consistency is lacking. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

controversy?

I read that besides the claims of racism he was also a womanizer and egotist. (Just Googled russell womanizer and came up with this).

A long list of writers wrote about this: For example A Genius for Foolishness, Book review on The Philosophy of Philandering, Bertrand Russell on Sex and Love (the last one refuting the notion that he was a "womanizer") etc.

So I think a section on controversy, with references to claims of colonialism and racism mentioned above on this talk page, would be appropriate. I was originally exposed to this controversy in an article in Hebrew about Witgenstein in the Segula magazine. If I remember correctly they wrote that today in the Me2 era he would have become ostricized.פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 09:42, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

That's not a very "long list", is it? I'm a bit concerned by the somewhat sensationalist tone of that Los Angeles Times review, e.g. "In his personal life, however, Lord Russell was a man of ruthless egotism, a womanizer capable of uncommon callousness and a father in later life whose behavior led to devastation and tragedy for his descendants (his oldest son went mad; his granddaughter committed suicide)." Use of the phrase "his oldest son went mad" does not really inspire confidence. And that review is 26 years old now. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Philosopher or Polymath? Or both?

An older version of Russell's article had him classified as a polymath. While it is true that Russell was a philosopher, he wrote on divers subjects throughout his long life. At any rate, he had polymathic interests.

Aristotle is listed as a philosopher and polymath on his Misplaced Pages article; shouldn't the same be said for Russell? SpicyMemes123 (talk) 21:31, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

'Polymathic interests?' I've never heard that term in my life, could you clarify it (and does it justify calling someone a polymath? For instance, I have interests in physics, does that mean I'm a physicist?). Apart from that, I highly doubt that even his fields of interests went beyond philosophy, mathematics and logic, which in Russell's case were of course related, so we're basically talking about one thing: the foundation of mathematics. Apart from that he had certain interests with regard to social issues, but this does not define a polymath. A polymath is someone like Goethe, who was apart from a poet/novelist, also a scientist and a statesman, which are completely different fields.

Last but not least: what's of importants are the sources on which you're basing this. The majority of sources are simply referring to Russell as a philosopher. I've never read a source referring to Russell as a polymath. Have you? 213.124.174.59 (talk) 15:53, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

I see that Russell is mentioned at Polymath, but not in any way that supports such a description of him. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:07, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

150th anniversary

BBC Radio 4's Today played an excerpt from a previously unreleased recording of Russell reading aged 93 and interviewed Ray Monk, at the end of the programme (2:58:35) this morning : . I would add it but I can find no secondary source. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

At least put it in the ext links. Ceoil (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Is there an agreed format for designating a time code? Unlike YouTube, it's no longer possible to incorporate a code into iPlayer links. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Why not say..."begins at 2:58:35" Ceoil (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Have added. But there are now 18 there and that BBC clip is a very compressed one. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Trimmed a few, though more could go. I suspect the clip will be on YouTube soon enough. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

"most famously known for the following opinions on education"

This uncited section (https://en.wikipedia.org/Bertrand_Russell#Education) claims "Russell is most famously known for the following opinions on education, taken from Page 30 of "The Impact of Science on society".", but I've never seen this paragraph before, and think most people know of him for his work in foundation of mathematics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.108.159.91 (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Welsh, English, or British?

A recent edit here changed nationality (just in the lead section) from British (which is not in dispute) to Welsh (which is not clear) with support from two sources: BBC and WalesOnline. The following edit here removed a number of "English" categories, only one of which was replaced with "Welsh" and none with "British" Are these changes all agreed? The explanatory footnote, about Monmouthshire in 1872, in the infobox, remains. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:23, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning this on the talk page. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of which nationality he considered himself, but he is known to have been born in Monmouthshire, Died in Merionethshire and had his ashes distributed over Welsh mountains. Titus Gold (talk) 12:23, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure, even today, many English people live and die in Monmouthshire, and it's now certainly part of Wales. But that doesn't make them Welsh? Additionally many people will want their ashes sprinkled in the place or places they have loved, but this doesn't confer some kind of retrospective nationality? Where does that BBC source say he was Welsh? I'm not sure the WalesOnline source is sufficiently authoritative. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Corrected to English. Seems to refer to himself as English in his autobiography. Titus Gold (talk) 00:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Does that mean he never refers to himself as British? Or that he thinks English is more accurate than British? Although the Autobiography is visible online, page 434 is not visible, so a quote might be useful. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

"I think you are entirely right in what you say about the Labour Party. I do not like them, but an Englishman has to have a Party just as he has to have trousers, and of the three "Parties I find them the least painful. My objection to the Tories is temperamental, and my objection to the Liberals is Lloyd George. I do not think that in joining a Part}y one necessarily abrogates the use of one’s reason. I know that my trousers might be better than they are; nevertheless they seem to me better than none." ~~~~ Jy Houston (talk) 08:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

What a lovely quote and it does slightly suggest he may have thought himself English (for political purposes, at least). I assume that is from page 434. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

its the quote I found at page 434 yes (its p. 414 in some other editions). It seems to me to be some evidence against him very strongly thinking of himself as Welsh. I thought a it rather nice quote and worth sharing but wouldn't myself hang too much on it in choosing between "English" or "British" (personally I'd go with the latter). Jy Houston (talk) 13:26, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• British seems safer than English. — Charles Stewart (talk) 07:24, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Titus Gold may be unaware of the many previous discussions on this point. Russell was unequivocally British. Whether or not he should be described as Welsh is disputable (as is whether he should be described as English - which is not really an argument I have much heard before). Monmouthshire is certainly part of Wales now, but its position at the time of Russell's birth was debated - there were different views (see Monmouthshire (historic)#Ambiguity over status). So, it is better to be unequivocally correct, rather than starting yet another round of tedious and pointless arguments. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

The status of Monmouthshire during Russell’s lifetime is indeed really not relevant to how he self-ID’d. Is this some irredentist English claim to Monmouthshire? I’ve not heard of it but looking into it I am not surprised some people hold fringe views.

Anyhoo The spirit of BLP carries over into a individuals long since deceased like BR. I suppose Russel would be the old equivalent of someone born in Wales to English second home owners today…. A-la not *really* Welsh… Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 09:31, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

"The status of Monmouthshire during Russell’s lifetime is indeed really not relevant to how he self-ID’d." Actually, it does have some relevance - per consistency with the guidance at Template:Infobox person, so that, in the infobox, we describe the country at the time of the person's birth. At the time of Russell's birth, Monmouthshire was legally, and by many authorities and indeed English people generally, considered part of England (though, equally, many or most Welsh people considered it part of Wales). So... whether he was "really" "Welsh" is essentially a matter of opinion - he did not consider himself Welsh, and his legal nationality was certainly British. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I think we can safely agree that neither his father nor his mother were Welsh, or in any way considered themselves Welsh. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:57, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I think in these matters of national identity, how the individual identifies themselves should carry more weight than anything else and Russell seems to identify as English based on multiple quotes from various volumes of his autobiography. I think English is the most accurate in this particular case. Titus Gold (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Titus Gold - you seem determined to prolong this argument by being provocative. Please stop. You are flip-flopping between describing him as Welsh or English, but neither is necessary. He was British - that is unarguable. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

So far we've seen one quote, which I have assumed is from the page of his Autobiography that you originally gave in your new source (is it?). Which are the other "multiple quotes from various volumes"? But has anyone actually searched for where he called himself "British"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that much. There is no dispute as to his legal nationality, and to our global readership "British" is just fine. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I tend agree. I see nothing wrong with "British". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:06, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Edits are made based on the best evidence. Look at what he calls himself: "English". British could confuse whether he was Welsh or English. I think it needs to be more clear. Titus Gold (talk) 11:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

British cannot "confuse" between Welsh and English. What if he was not even clear himself (or did not think it mattered)? If you really want to set out your case, you'll need to provide all this "best evidence" where he "calls himself English." At the end of the day, we should be guided by how RS academic sources describe him. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:12, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

For example, this is important for categories and other Misplaced Pages articles which reference Welsh or English contributions. Titus Gold (talk) 11:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I have provided a citation from his own autobiography. There's no better source than that. I will add some of the other citations if you wish. Titus Gold (talk) 11:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

You say you have more examples. Have you also looked for "British"? But most other editors here seem to disagree with you, or think it's not worth the effort. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:16, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I have no doubt that Russell considered himself British as well as English based on my recent reading. I maintain that using English avoids any confusion as to whether he was Welsh or not. He never describes himself as Welsh based on his autobiography volumes.

Perhaps a sensible compromise would be to mention that he identified as English somewhere later in the article. Titus Gold (talk) 11:28, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that might be a sensible compromise. I'm not sure we need to expect a lot of effort in order to make it clear what someone wasn't. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:55, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I've adapted a sentence later on in the intro. Titus Gold (talk) 16:05, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure any statement is required in the lead section, especially if the claim "although he identified as English" is supported only by that one quote from his Autobiography (and the quote itself is not given). You might also wish to remember that the lead is meant to be a summary of the entire article and not contain anything that's no expanded (with sources) in the main body. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree that a clause like "although he identified as English" (or "but identified as English") is unnecessary. Only Welsh nationalists would care - not a significant proportion of our global readership. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:31, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Use British, as he was born & died in the UK. The United Kingdom should be also used is both his birth/death place. GoodDay (talk) 22:32, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

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