Misplaced Pages

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(Again with the bad archiving practice, but I want us to take this opportunity to talk about ways that Misplaced Pages might be improved after this incident. I posted this to wikien-l, and am posting here to generate an on-wiki discussion here. Please stay on topic, and please feel free to delete random trolling comments (personal attacks) that do not contribute to a positive discussion of how we might grow. Not everyone will agree with this proposal, and that is fine of course, we need a healthy dialogue around the verifiability of credentials. But random accusations of conspiracy and corruption are just boring personal attacks. Let's keep this productive and positive.--Jimbo Wales 09:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to the EssJay scandal, I want to bring back an old proposal of mine from 2 years ago for greater accountability around credentials:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-May/022085.html

At the time, this seemed like a plausibly decent idea to me, and the reaction at the time was mostly positive, with some reasonable caveats and improvements:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-May/thread.html to read the entire thread of "An idea".

Nowadays, I bring back the proposal for further consideration in light of the EssJay scandal. I think it imperative that we make some positive moves here... we have a real opportunity here to move the quality of Misplaced Pages forward by doing something that many have vaguely thought to be a reasonably good idea if worked out carefully.

For anyone who is reading but not online, I will sum it up. I made a proposal that we have a system whereby people who are willing to verify their real name and credentials are allowed a special notification. "Verified Credentials". This could be a rather open ended system, and optional.

The point is to make sure that people are being honest with us and with the general public. If you don't care to tell us that you are a PhD (or that you are not), then that's fine: your editing stands or falls on its own merit. But if you do care to represent yourself as something, you have to be able to prove it.

This policy will be coupled with a policy of gentle (or firm) discouragement for people to make claims like those that EssJay made, unless they are willing to back them up.

How to confirm? What counts as confirmation? What sorts of things need confirmation? These are very interesting questions, as there are many types of situations. But one thing that we have always been very very good at is taking the time to develop a nuanced policy.

Just to take a simple example: how to verify a professor? This strikes me as being quite simple in most cases. The professor gives a link to his or her faculty page at the college or university, including the email there, and someone emails that address to say "are you really EssJay?" If the answer is yes, then that's a reasonable confirmation.

We can imagine some wild ways that someone might crack that process (stealing a professor's email account, etc.) but I think we need not design around the worst case scenario, but rather design around the reasonable case of a reasonable person who is happy to confirm credentials to us.

(This is a lower level of confirmation than we might expect an employer to take, of course.)

For someone like me, well, I have an M.A. in finance. I could fax a copy of the degree to the office. Again, someone could fake their credentials, but I don't think we need to design against some mad worst case scenario but just to have a basic level of confirmation.

Responses

• Yes. Perhaps it doesn't go far enough, and probably it has its own problems; but it certainly seems a move in the right direction. -- Hoary 09:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC) ... PS I dunno, some points made below are pretty good. I'll sleep on it. -- Hoary 11:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This feels to me like a bit of a distraction, so I have a different proposal to make. Could you just not appoint people to the ArbCom anymore? If a vacancy appears, we can automatically fill it with the person who got the next highest number of votes in the last election. At the very least, could you not appoint people who didn't even run in the last election? Also, could you not appoint people with a history of massive lies if you're aware of those lies? Everyking 09:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, this is a helpful start. Gwen Gale 09:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• WP:V > Someone with a Ph.D claiming that their edits are more worthy than others; what other purpose will it serve? Credential verification is nothing more than a tool for people to claim that their edits are more worthy, regardless of NPOV/V/OR, than someone elses. Not a very Wiki thing, in my opinion. Daniel Bryant 09:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

He addresses those worries. Working out an implementation could take some thought and time though and I do agree editors should be under no pressure to disclose credentials or that they should have sway in edits, only that those who do assert credentials should somehow make them verifiable. Gwen Gale 09:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Consensus > (A General Editor = A General Editor with a Ph.D). But, paramount to everything, is WP:V. No matter who you are, what titles you hold, anything that is contested on Misplaced Pages requires a reliable, third party, independant source. Having a new status of editors would blur this requirement, which undercuts on of the key foundations upon which this encyclopaedia is built. Daniel Bryant 09:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, a "new status" of editors would be way unhelpful. A citation from a reliable secondary source trumps any academic qualification. So why not ban assertions of credentials altogether? I don't think it's needed but I'd support that too. Gwen Gale 09:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In theory, using credentials in a content dispute to hang the applicability of your edits on is wrong. Practise may be different; I don't know. Regardless, I would/will frown upon anyone who does what I mentioned to aid themselves or their POV in a content dispute. I can't see any reason to banning their mention, only their use as before - we've always allowed userpages to "run free" like that. Daniel Bryant 09:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the assertion of credentials in an edit dispute could be made a blockable thing (like legal threats), but allow CVs on user pages if they've been verified somehow. Gwen Gale 09:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is a very good idea in princible, but I think you highlight some major concerns yourself, mainly, that it is very easy to simple fake a college certificate, especially with the ammount of knowledge users on this encyclopedia. I'm interested as to how this would work, would it be on wiki? with a new subgroup of people created - The verifiers! My concern with this would be privacy if the verifiers had to give out personal addresses to receive documents. Also, if documents were sent to wikia, surely that would be costly to implement, with a probable large number of documents to go through and verify? RyanPostlethwaite 09:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• similar reservation to Daniel Bryant. My personal approach has been different- I've never claimed any credentials on wikipedia, because I think they should ideally be irrelevant. Your work should depend on its own quality and the quality of its sources, and your reputation should depend on your work. we've got everything from preteens to retirees, and I don't think a credential makes a bit of difference, it all comes down to what can be cited. Basically, verification of credentials is irrelevant if they're ignored as they should be. Essjay never should have been treated any different because of what he claimed. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 09:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Truth be told I'd also be happy with a total ban on credential citing here but if some folks want to put them on user pages, they should be verifiable. Gwen Gale 09:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Another idea similar to Jimbo's: I have an idea but I don't know whether it can be done or not. The idea is to give sensitive positions like check user and oversight etc only to people who are willing to reveal their real identity to the Wikimedia Foundation so that the Foundation is sure that these people are (in real life) as they say about themselves. --Meno25 09:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree fully to that - to ensure that no deceit is occuring on Misplaced Pages for users with these sensitive permissions. Hell, I'd email Jimbo with everything he wants to know about me if he wanted it; given someone already gave away basically all my personal information in #-en-admins a couple of months ago, it's not like I care. Daniel Bryant 09:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I would be reluctant to give any clue to my RL identity, for my own personal reasons. To be frank people don't need qualifications to regurgitate fact which is all we do here. Remember "own research" is not permitted. Even if it were announced at the top of the page that it had been written by the world's most eminent professor, there is nothing to stop another less exalted editor another paragraph - that is how wikipedia works. People using bogus credentials happens all the time in real life in hospitals, schools and multi-national companies. Sooner or later Citizendum and other similar projects will have their own identical scandals - the very nature of the internet and human behaviour creates them, and unless people are going to post their passports, identity papers and utility bills on their user pages (which will never happen) - these things will be repeated. So like it or lump it we have to get real and get over it. Posting or having qualifications in itself is a minefield? - which university granted the degree, which country was the university in? Can we rely on the student from The University of Ruritania? Whatever we decide, the dedicated imposter will always find a way in. We could demand however as Daniel Bryant suggests known true identity for checkusers and those who publicly represent and speak for wikipedia - sort of give certain editors an accredited press badge. Giano 09:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Which is why a total ban on credential waving would be ok by me. If an editor is asked to fill a position of trust, so long as Wales has a way of doing some due diligence on the person's RL background, there are few worries. Gwen Gale 09:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• It's the right sentiment, but I don't like the solution. Too much instruction creep, to much potential for badge wearing. It's also questionable if there's any value in revealing someone's degrees without knowing who they are in real life. It's not as if a degree by itself means anything.

What we could do as an alternative is to discourage people from claiming academic credentials, unless they're willing to provide a link to an outside website that reasonably proves that they're really who they claim to be. If somebody's a professor at some university and wishes it to be known on Misplaced Pages, they can simply interlink their university home page and their user page here. Zocky | picture popups 09:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, per Giano, my suggestion is that anyone who acts in a role as an ArbCom member, B'crat, Checkuser, Oversight, Steward, Office (der), OTRS, and anything similar, should have to verify to WMF that what they claim is true. Daniel Bryant 09:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What Daniel.Bryant said is what I meant exactly. --Meno25 10:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Privately with Wales or whomever, yes. Also make posting credentials on a user page so onerous or whatever in terms of verification, few want to do it. Gwen Gale 09:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Daniel Bryant and Giano on this one. If anyone is in a higher position above editor (admin and up), they should be expected to provide (privately) their credentials (if they choose to post them on their userpages) to Jimbo or the foundation. I believe it is important that editors do all they can to not post their personal information anywhere on the web. As Giano has stated, we simply use referenced work anyway, so our expertise is defined by our ability to research and cite our references.--MONGO 10:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Could I just clarify, I am only advocating true identity revelation for those in very high office, consequently with great trust placed upon them - such as checkuser. I'm not even sure the Arbcom have to be known - it is their judgement which is sought not their CV. It is those who could potentially do great harm to the project - revealing IPs ect, or being recomended by the organozation to speak to the press seemingly on behalf of Misplaced Pages who need to be acountable in real life. Giano 11:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"...we simply use referenced work anyway, so our expertise is defined by our ability to research and cite our references"...and not our credentials. OR becomes blurred, V becomes blurred, and that comprimises our foundation principles. Anyone who holds any "positions of trust" on Misplaced Pages is seen by the press as representing it; whether this is desirable or not, is irrelevant - it is the current situation. Daniel Bryant 10:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

And what happens if they don't claim anything. People who respect their privacy and refused to reveal anything? Will they be able to have higher positions, Checkuser, Oversight, on Wiki? (Sorry if I sound harsh) --K.Z 10:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• The fact is people claim credentials now anyway, as Essjay did. In less than 5 minutes effort, I found 50 Misplaced Pages Ph.D's today, and I can name another 15 off the top of my head. That was before I found Category:Wikipedians_by_degree. I once had a list of hundreds of Ph.D's here. The fact is also that people pay some attention to these, and it would be silly not too. That's not to say that any of the standard policies shouldn't apply, but every article here requires the application of judgement. Credentials are at least some indicator that judgement is well-informed, though not infallible. So, the right solution is to make credentials verifiable. In short, they're already here. They can serve a very valuable role here, just as in the real world, without changing policy at all. So, it's very sensible to provide a verification mechanism. Fear of a 'class' system are unfounded, since credentials are already out there and widely believed anyway. By the way, banning the mention of credentials is utterly unworkable, and frankly silly. Derex 10:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it would be silly, although I have no worries about CVs posted under a verification scheme, especially if asserting them in an edit dispute is deprecated: A strong citation has sway over any academic degree and people with academic degrees are trained in using them. Gwen Gale 10:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you going to do, block a professor — who has spent his entire adult life studying an issue and is struggling for days with some noob hasn't the slightest clue what he's talking about — for mentioning he's a professor? I guarantee you won't see that professor back again if you do. On the very rare occasions I edit economics articles, I avoid mentioning it because it generally puts people off if you try to pull rank. But, sometimes, it just cuts through the bullshit, and I'm not going to accept being blocked for simply stating that I do know what the hell I'm talking about. Derex 10:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

An academically credentialled expert on a topic can make quick work of any crank by following WP's documented citation policies. Gwen Gale 11:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not been my experience, and I assure you I have absolutely top-notch professional credentials. The problem is that it is very difficult to persuade a crank with a crankish reference to point at. However, the issue you raise is whether people should pay attention to credentials. It doesn't matter. The fact is that some people do. Derex 11:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If you want some tips on how to handle cranks and fools then, let me know :) Gwen Gale 11:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• From the technical standpoint, there are significant hurdles to overcome here.
  • Essentially, you would be building a database with private, personal information - who would be able to access that information? Any user groups in particular? Anyone? No one? Would the Privacy policy be the only document governing the handling of that information?
  • Where would that information be stored? Which steps are going to be taken to protect that information from outside attacks? How would the end users know that a certain editor verified his credentials? Will real names be visible anywhere?
  • Who would process those credentials vouchers? Would someone be paid to do so? Would current staff do so? Would more staff at St. Petersburg be required to do so? Would that place a financial burden on the Foundation?
  • Most importantly, why should an editor want to go through that hassle? What benefits would the editor see? Would there be any reprisals for lack of revealing information?
• The idea may have merit, but it is half-cooked as of now. But I guess since this is the drawing board, there's no need to go back to it. Any suggestions? Answers? Titoxd 10:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• I would want to ensure that we find a balance between accountability and credentialsm. In my opinion, anything that increases accountability is good. Anything that increases credentialism is bad. I feel we are at the point where if you want to be an administrator, you need to submit the kind of information one would submit for any kind of sensitive volunteer work. I believe this should be retroactive for all admins, and the information should not be made public, though disclosure should be strongly encouraged. Anyone speaking to the media as a representative or having responsibilities above normal admin levels needs to have a background check and must use their real name. That may sound draconian, and we may lose some good admins, but this episode demonstrates that the project has reached a level where the more informal arrangements of the past are no longer acceptable. Now, as far as credentialism, I am very much opposed to anything that makes some rank-and-file editors "more equal than others." It's antithetical to core principles of the project. A good edit is a good edit, and I would hate to see anyone fail to question an edit or get backed down in a dispute just because it's made by some editor with letters after their name vs. some homeschooled kid or some day laborer. Edit counts and other forms of heirarchical ranking should never be invoked in content disputes. Fallacies like appeals to authority are moot if the edit is based on WP:ATT. Degrees and other personal information are interesting but irrelevant to edits. They are, however, entirely relevant to accountability. I would be very sad if this incident led to a move toward elitism, since the egalitarian ethos is part of what makes this such a grand human experiment. Jokestress 10:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Spot on, this is what I've been getting at (thanks for throwing in a reference to the abuse of edit counts too). Gwen Gale 10:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"A good edit is a good edit." How do you know a good edit? It's certainly more than simply checking correct attribution, all manner of fringe theories can be attributed. You use your judgement and experience. Why do we use usernames here, instead of anonymous ip's? Because usernames allow a sort of reputation for judgement and experience to develop. Unfortunately, it doesn't scale particularly well to situations with thousands of editors. Why should the judgement and experience indicated by a Ph.D. be dismissed here at Misplaced Pages, when in the real world it is so highly valued that people spend many years acquiring one? To repeat my previous point, people already quite sensible refer to their credentials. If they bore no weight, Essjay would not have been a problem. They're here. They're used. They're widely believed. None of that is going to change. Verify. Derex 11:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I interpreted that to mean "an edit supported by strong citations from reliable secondary sources" holds sway over any assertion of academic credentials. I'll get to the pith of it though: Lots of the PhDs one sees listed on this wiki are verifiable but lots are horse pucky too (or from worthless schools) and there is wide abuse. Gwen Gale 11:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't suggest for a second that some professor's say-so should overrule any standard policies. Obviously any position in a dispute should be citeable. The problem is that disputes here reflect disputes in the real world, which are usually citeable. Each of us exercises judgement every time we edit a disputed article. NPOV policy goes an amazingly long way, but it does not eliminate the need for judgement. The bottom line is that if you think degrees are "horse pucky" then you don't pay any attention to them now, and you won't if they are verified either. But, some people do pay attention to them, and it would be best to ensure that they are at least genuine horse pucky. Derex 11:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You might want to very carefully re-read my post since I never said degrees are horse pucky. I said that bogus assertions of hem are horse pucky. Gwen Gale 11:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the "or" in your parentheses. The point stands though. At least we can weed out bogus claims. Verification doesn't mean credentials will necessarily get you any farther than they already do, which usually is very little. Derex 11:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Verification of credentials listed on a user page is more than ok with me. Citing credentials in an edit dispute is not. An academic editing here should have the enough knowledge and skill to support assertions with helpful and strong citations. Gwen Gale 11:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Derex, if something is a fringe theory, there will be an attributable source noting as much. Experts are welcome and are often good at framing a concept or article, but that does not make them infallible. A good expert can make quick work of a fringe theory through WP:ATT. Ultimately, the content and not the expert or non-expert writing should be the deciding factor in a good edit. That's what I mean. Just because I know a lot about certain topics should not make anyone defer to me. Ideally, my edits would be equally scrutinized and challenged whether I were an IP editor or a public figure. I guess I have a different outlook on the recent incident. If journalists weren't fixated on credentialism, Essjay's credentials woudn't have been in the article. I also have a suspicion that he moved up quickly in part because of said credentialsm (in addition to a great deal of unassailably excellent work). So my point is that people with credentials should not get a free pass, and those who think they matter should ask why they think they matter. Sincerely, Jokestress (M.A., English, University of Chicago, 1990) ;) Jokestress 11:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The balance suggested by Jokestress seems good to me. People are going to refer to their life experience to support their position, and if academic credentials are important to them they're likely to call on them, but giving that a seal of approval by a wee star saying "trust this user, s/he's a doctor" is the wrong way to go. The better approach is to say that it would be much appreciated if they could draw on their credentials to set out a fully referenced case, being careful to meet WP:NOR. This open examination of arguments rather than trusting expert opinion is what makes Misplaced Pages so valuable: Britannica exemplifies the other approach which often works well, but it also has some howlers in it. We need to value, encourage and cherish experts here for what they can contribute, but not for their unimpeachable authority. ... dave souza, talk 11:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Jokestress has captured my sentiments quite well, but I would like to recapitulate my own take on this situation in my own words to make sure that we are in accord. To wit, I am against the policing of userpages and/or credentials for rank and file Misplaced Pages contributors, but anyone who seeks to move up through the ranks should be prepared to sacrifice more and privacy, particularly so when someone is going to be recommended by the powers that be at Misplaced Pages as a source to the press. Moreover, in light of the fact that so many of Misplaced Pages's current administrators remain loyal to Essjay and see his deception as "no big deal," I am in favor of making such a policy retroactive for anyone who wishes to retain his or her positions of trust at Misplaced Pages. // Internet Esquire 19:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I fully understand what you are saying, and to a certain extent agree with you, but there are many vluable wikipedia editors who for various reasons cannot divulge their true identities, many eminent accademics (neither adjective or noun aply to me - seriously) have legal contracts preventing them writing or publishing for others than their employers - and that is just the tip of the iceberg but are these people who give so much to wikipedia to be prevented from accepting the responsibility given freely to a precocious 14 year old merely because they cannot divilge identitiy. Giano 19:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

As someone who is unwilling to volunteer verification of any personal details about himself to anyone other than creditors and respected members of the press, and then only as deep background information with the latter, this has never affected my ability to contribute to Misplaced Pages, nor should it, as I have never felt the desire to seek administrator privileges. Administrators have largely janitorial duties, but are in a position of trust, having been given the virtual keys to the building. // Internet Esquire 19:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What we shouldn't have is a replication of Citizendium, where everyone has to prove their expertise/training/credentials. I would probably leave Misplaced Pages if that were to happen. In reevaluation, might I suggest that checkuser/oversight/arbcom and "approved" spokespersons have their personal details filed in private with the Foundation. We can't stop editors from speaking to the press and we shouldn't, but we can definitely ensure that anyone acting in an official capacity has proof of their achievements on record.--MONGO 11:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Without expressing an opinion on your proposal Jimbo, I think MONGO's suggestion above represents a minimum requirement for handing out the postions with access to sensitive information and those whose actions reflect strongly on the project. —Doug Bell  11:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I have three points:
  • When Essjay was in full expert-mode he became more detailed about his academic career, even so far as explaining just how he arranges his degrees after his name or giving the exact cost of his education. The lesson The more an editor wants to use their personal expertise to settle an issue the more they have invested in that "truth". Therefore they'll go to lengths to establish their credentials, real or otherwise. I can easily imagine the Essjay of June 2005 faking websites or diplomas to send to the Foundation.
  • I've recently encountered two book editors who've both followed a similar arc: jumping into WP to write positive articles about themselves and their associates, and to write attack pieces on enemies. Both are known in their field. Both have claimed expertise and experience in editing. Both were POV pushing and engaging in OR. Both became angry when informed that Misplaced Pages policies require a neutral tone and verifiable material. Experts are not necessarily impartial and that they may not understand the norms of this project.
  • Despite the above observations I think this is a very good idea. It puts the world and the community on notice that if someone wants to claim personal expertise they'd better be able to verify it. As far as WP's culture goes, this proposal is the opposite of prohibiting anonymous editing. It creates another way of contributing, another level of familiarity, and may also help solve the issue of retaining legitimate experts. It is similar to Amazon's "real name" designation.-Will Beback · † · 11:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Damn, that deleted revision is incredibly revealing. It takes a different perspective when you know who those words are really coming from. The self-aggrandizing martyr complex that shows up in his apology was there a year and a half ago too. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 13:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In contrast, I'd dealings separately with two editors who let it be known that they were historians and authors: one was an invaluable contributor whose edits appeared fully reliable, but was upset by a silly argument with clowns adding unexplained "unencyclopedic tone" tags to his work, and left. The other was a bully whose spurious arguments made me wonder about academic standards where he came from. We need to encourage experts, but approving the validity of their claimed credentials introduces a new mechanism that can be gamed: as I recall, Ben Goldacre has a dead cat with a diploma in nutritional therapy. Do we have a grading system for how good the credentials are? ... dave souza, talk 11:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is also being discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators accountability, where I've put some thoughts in a fair bit of detail. Briefly, I don't think it was a huge problem, in itself - though it was certainly a problem - that someone was claiming non-existent credentials and trying to pull rank with them in content disputes, but it was a huge problem when someone who was doing that also gained positions of power and responsibility, and was held out by Misplaced Pages as a good person for the press to interview. I'd rather concentrate on how we keep such people out of positions of power, and out of acting as representatives of Misplaced Pages in the wider world. Once again, I think there is some point (perhaps above mere administrator) where it should be necessary to register personal details with Jimbo or, more realistically, with someone like the Foundation's legal officer. Details should include any secondary accounts used and why (there definitely can be legitimate reasons, but in Essjay's case concern is already being expressed about any possible sockpuppets). However, personal details should not be registered with some anonymous person. E.g. if I registered my details somewhere, I would want them held in a safe place by an accountable officer or employee of the Foundation. Metamagician3000 11:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• If people choose to publish on their user pages their qualification, then a level of proof should also be provided but of course anything can be fabricated. We must, however, avoid creating a two tier level hierachy of editors - an educated elite v daft peasants. Which I think could arise if this is not handled very cleverly. Giano 11:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ala Citizendium... But it any case, it must be the verifiable citation, not clever elocution on a Talk page which is the deciding factor. --Lmcelhiney 17:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes and banning any assertion of qualifications during an edit dispute could be clever enough. A skilled academic with knowledge of the topic should be able to use existing WP citation policies to handle cranks or whatever, who often don't heed CVs anyway. Gwen Gale 12:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I'm seeing a lot of merit in what is being said by Giano, Gwen Gale, MONGO, Daniel Bryant, and maybe some others - we all seem to see the problem in a similar way (and slightly differently from Jimbo, I think). Where we are disagreeing among ourselves is just in what circumstances people should have to register personal details somewhere safe. At one of the scale, it might be everyone with any authority at all, i.e. the 1000+ admins. At the other end of the scale it might be only a very few: maybe checkusers and spokespersons. I'd tend to go for something in between, but any proposal like this would have been a line of defence with the Essjay scandal if it had been operating fairly rigorously. Metamagician3000 12:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good suming up - the debate should really concentrate on the level within Misplaced Pages at which identity disclosure becomes necessary - and perhaps more importantly where and to whom that information is disclosed and stored. Giano 12:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Gwen Gale's idea deals with the problem of claimed credentials without taking on the task of a credentials vetting agency, a register of personal details for those with significant authority would reduce and hopefully eliminate the possibility of unknown falsehoods becoming an embarrassment. .. dave souza, talk 14:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Privacy policy

• My main concern at this point are people entrusted with information covered by the privacy policy are known to the foundation (their real identity). Misuse or posting of people's checkuser information could reveal their place of employment and other personal details and have major consequences for the person concerned. On the privacy policy where it says "The Wikimedia Foundation makes no guarantee against unauthorized access to any information you provide.", does this include my checkuser information? This makes it sound like it's okay for a checkuser to misuse my information and there is nothing I could do about it. I think that needs to be clarified. Any steps to increase "Security of information" (as described in the policy) would be most welcome. I might even recommend running a background check or something on those people entrusted with checkuser information, to give some comfort that these people are trustworthy. A background check need not be complex, but just a simple check like done if you want to work or even volunteer in a daycare center, with children. I think that would go a long way in assuring people who edit and use Misplaced Pages. --Aude (talk) 14:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that within your comment is contained what will prove to be a fatal flaw with the whole scheme. Many wikipedia editors edit from their work place, i.e. on someone elese's computer and in someone else's time. I will certainly admit to being guilty of that on occasions. Consequently, I think few will be prepared to take the risk of leaving themselves open to such risks or exposure in the workplace however remote they may be. In the few years I've been here, I have heard occasional accusations of chekuser abuse - maybe they are true, maybe they are false - I don't know. What I do know is wherever there are a few hundred human beings gathered together there will always be rumour - and this will deter people from revealing too much about themselves. People's privacy is their own business. Giano 14:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Hence, allow CVs on user pages only if they've been verified through the "vetted light" way proposed by Wales and ban any assertion of them in editing disputes. As for positions of high trust, let WMF and Wales work out a more formal background check like any responsible org. Gwen Gale 14:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Essjay scandal

I think it's a positive step to have you acknowledged in direct terms that this was a scandal. Thank you. —Doug Bell  09:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Doug, no offence, but this isn't helpful at this moment. If Jimbo didn't think it was a scandal, my guess is that he wouldn't have acted as he did in the end. If what you really want is a sort of apology for Jimbo's initial reaction, then please consider that apologies can only be given freely, and demanding them doesn't do anybody any good. Zocky | picture popups 10:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC) I did, in fact, misunderstand Doug's comment and I gladly take mine back :) Zocky | picture popups 11:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You're misinterpretting my comment. I not asking for an apology, I simply view his direct acknowledgement of what seems to be the community consensus as a positive step in moving forward on this issue. This comment here is complimentary, and not intended to be sarcastic, inflamatory, insulting or any other negative interpretation. —Doug Bell  10:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It was a scandal. And I have apologized for my role in it. I made several mistakes of judgment at various points along the way, and I am very much in favor of reforming our processes so that we are not so vulnerable. I am spending a lot of time reflecting carefully on my role here. The primary mistake that I made is one that I have trouble condemning myself for, because I think that one of my personality flaws is actually a strength for Misplaced Pages: a willingness to trust people and assume good faith even in difficult times. That caused me to wrongly minimize the importance of this, and to make bad decisions for a time. I am very sorry for that, and the only solution I know of is to work for positive change.--Jimbo Wales 11:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thus the reason behind my "Thank you". I appreciate this immensely as the initial reaction from both you and Essjay was disturbing to the point that if that was the final outcome I would have to leave the project. I am very grateful that it wasn't and that I don't. —Doug Bell  11:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I echo Doug Bell. Thanks for this message. Tintin 11:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

As I see it Essjay has gone off into the wilderness with a lot of well deserved condemnation ringing in his ears, inspired by copious amonts of righteous anger and not a small amount of schadenfreude. Essjay regrets it, we regret it. It happened, it is over. It is time to stop the autopsy and the "mea culpas" - hindsight is a wonderous thing, and none of us have it. It is going to happen here and to all similar projects again at some time in the future - that is unavoidable by the laws of human nature. If that Citizendum man does not realise that then he is bigger fool, than some of us probably feel right now. Time now to move on and endevour to prevent it happening so easily again, and join the conversation instigated by Jimbo above. Giano 12:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Other views

We have to keep in mind that nobody is really interested in the dirt here. What really draws their interest is the grandness of this NPOV vision of describing accurately the paths of civilization in attempting to bring men to be human. Now there is a lot of conflict in exactly what human civilization is, and that conflict is what brings them all here. Nobody is really interested in whatever small deception there is in Essjay playing out that nice role he wrote for himself in his life. It would make a delightful short movie--not much of a deception at all. However, when that small deception appears against the background of this huge NPOV project and mission of capturing in print the truth of all of man's striving since the beginning of time--that deception, though small, will drive men mad. So we have to keep all of this in perspective. While it may good for us all to ask forgivenesses for our "small deceptions" and oversights, let us not forget that the only reason that our detractors' animal passions blow this series of events completely out-of-proportion is because of the grandness of this NPOV mission and dream of making all that is known available in one accurate Misplaced Pages available free-to-all. That is huge, and it is that hugeness of enterprise and possibility that brings even the detractors to these pages. So we have to kind of calm everybody down and keep our sense of proportion. This mission is huge, let us admit. --Rednblu 12:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Splendid, grandiose, and a worthy summary of this huge mission – but what about women's striving? ;) A significant point is "the truth" – something that often emerges in discussions is that there are multiple truths depending on viewpoint, which is why NPOV sets out to reflect all those viewpoints in proportion. ... dave souza, talk 13:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, I think this is a meed thing to talk about and everything but it strays far from the administrative worry of basic accountability for CVs posted on WP. Gwen Gale 13:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I have found my questions from ten hours ago--not personal attacks, not trolling, but perfectly honest questions--buried in the archive. We'll all draw our own conclusions and as I said, I'm done. --Larry Sanger 14:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, buried along with everyone else's comments and understandably, so he could clear his talk page and say what he had to say. Wales has said he made mistakes and has even apologized. Meanwhile why don't you offer a helpful word or two based on your experience with credentials over at Citizendium instead of implying your comments have been singled out and brushed aside? Gwen Gale 14:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Jimbo deserves sole responsibility here: if some of the issues that emerged in the last week had been known earlier on then the community would have dealt with the issue without such fuss. It had been my belief that serious misrepresentations usually get weeded out at the RFA level. Once I saw the relevant diffs, Essjay's fiction was apparent: he demonstrated the spelling and punctuation mistakes of an undergraduate rather than the prose of a professor and Catholicism for Dummies isn't the type of source a Ph.D. normally cites. Someone who knew his contribution history could have made a strong circumstantial case to challenge his CV, either during a formal nomination or at RFC. A few step forward now to say it was obvious...well, what seemed obvious to me (and I suppose to many others) is that an administrator, bureaucrat, etc. probably had told the truth all along or he wouldn't have attained those positions of trust. As I stated in my first comment on this scandal, if any other administrators have padded their credentials I hope they come clean now. Durova 15:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree: Jimbo appointed Essjay - the buck stops with him. Exclusively. The point is this: Godkingship is a very poor idea in a wiki and Jimbo should step down from that post. .... contributed at on 5 March 2007 by 129.170.29.111

• Is this getting us anywhere? This is an opportunity to make some improvements for the better, can we not see it as such and grasp it. Anyone who imagines Jimbo is going to resign is wasting their life in cloud cuckoo land. It is his project, his encyclopedia - in short his show - so he is not going to leave it. Maybe he has been a little gullible on this occasion, I don't really see anything beyond that - and I'm pretty good at spotting faults. Anyway this is all hypothetical because he's not stepping down, so get used to the idea and lets improve the place. Giano 15:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear. What I meant to say is that in a wiki decisions are made by extensive discussion, not by fiat, and that decisions are never permanent and wiki-internal appointments never permanent. The idea of Wiki-chief is incompatible with that. The system runs on trust and respect. You can't demand respect, you can only earn it.

Never mind respect, trust is everything. Gwen Gale 16:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Mr/MS IP, I hadn't realized that it was J Wales who appointed Essjay administrator or bureaucrat. (Actually I'd have voted for him as bureaucrat myself, but didn't merely because of what you might call a technicality. So a cent of the buck stops with me. Should I step down? If I do, must I step into a cowpat?) -- Hoary 15:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Since you two have spoken up I'll say this, Wales botched and he says so. Meanwhile if by some docking fluke he left this wiki it would grind down into throes of gridlock and a messy end within months. Talent and leadership ability are behind what has enabled the social engineering marvel of this wiki. Flaws and all, it's his talent, his wiki. Gwen Gale 15:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Other wikipedias manage rather well without a chief.

Look Jimbo will be going nowhere. Maybe other Wikipedias do maybe they don't - but I don;t see the ppoint if having further hypothetical discussions on the subject. Incidentally your points may carry more weight if you logged in. Giano 16:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the OP, but speaking as an observer it seems to me that Jimbo's accorded "status," if you will, on this site seems a direct contradiction of both the spirit and the letter of WP:OWN. It seems to me that WP has long since reached a point where the policies have to apply to everyone, even and especially Jimbo, if the site is to counter ongoing criticism that "the rules don't apply" to Jimbo's active friends on the site. I'm not saying "get rid of Jimbo," but that that no editor or admin should be accorded status above the spirit and letter of policy. Academy Leader 19:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This wiki's the knack so far 'n I don't think he wants to blow it :) Gwen Gale 16:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Under rug, swept?

Just as the New York Times is rather complimentary about our "transparency" and efforts to resolve this issue through discussion, all evidence of this incident is being deleted. If anyone were to look today, there would be no RFC about Essjay, no letter from Essjay to "other" professors, no talk archives about other users trying to talk to him about the situation, and no article about "Essjay". If this continues, the next article in the Times is going to be titled "Misplaced Pages attempts to cover up scandal", and as we have all just learned, sometimes the cover up is worse than the crime.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.150.34.235 (talk • contribs)

Jimbo, take a look at this deletion reveiw: The evidence that the community disapproves of this fraud is now gone; so far as anyone can discern, we are collectively mostly interested in covering it up. That's not true at all, but thanks to this deletion, that's the appearance.Proabivouac 17:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is not good. David Gerard's actions could further damaging the reputation of Misplaced Pages in the press - this is going to appear like a mamoth attempt at a cover up, if we don't have a very strong message from you, Jimbo - that we are facing up to the problem and confronting it. Giano 17:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If Phil Sandifer is acting here in some official capacity, please let us know about it.Proabivouac 17:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Please do let us know if some sort of authorization to erase these histories has gone over the backchannels. Gwen Gale 17:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Some of us expected this and archived some things with webcitation.org:

• Letter by Essjay to an academic in which he falsely claims academic credentials and accomplishments.
• Edit in which Essjay claims to a user that he had a PhD and students under his charge
• Essjay's (non-)apology
• Letter by Essjay to an academic in which he falsely claims academic credentials and accomplishments.
• Edit in which Essjay claims to a user that he had a PhD and students under his charge
• Sample of Misplaced Pages community reactions
• User:Essjay/History1
• Deletion log 1 of Essay's userspace
• Deletion log 2 of Essay's userspace

74.225.21.234 19:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Exhausted

First let me make crystal clear: I have no axe to grind against Essjay. I knew and admired him mostly through his reputation and had only very limited direct interaction with him. Until a few days ago, that's all there was.

I was deeply disturbed by his long-term deception, the black eye he gave the project via the New Yorker article, and the seemingly cavalier attitude regarding all this from you. Because of my strong feelings that without accountability on this issue that I could not continue at the project, I have spent a great deal of effort over the last several days trying to focus discussion on what I believe are the core issues at stake. I have done this knowing that such heavy involvement might earn me the wrath of many of the long-time and key contributors here who counted Essjay among their friends. I've done this despite many direct and indirect accusations of being part of "a mob", "a lynching", or simply someone motivated to "kick someone while they were down". Nothing could be further from the truth. My motivation was to help rescue the project from a wound inflicted by one of our best contributors.

It has been a difficult and unpleasant process, and one likely to have cost me much goodwill from many of the others here that hold similar positions of high trust as Essjay did. I accept that cost if it helps the project because really for me the only alternative was to leave.

Now it seems that this process of community discussion and evaluation is being replaced by out-of-process attempts to, as put above, sweep much of this under the rug. I can think of nothing at this point that will harm the project more than that. David Gerard's deletion of the most orderly and constructive discussion on this is perhaps the last straw for me. I am reluctant to give up the fight for the project, as I have seen that most people here understand the absolute need for accountability despite the personal pain involved. However, I am becoming exhausted with the effort required to continue against the emotionally-driven efforts of many people here—and many from the innermost circles of the project hierarchy—to undo the painfully achieved progress on vetting and moving forward. It makes me sad, and it has exhausted my energy for the moment to continue to fight for the dignity of the project.

For now, I'm stepping back and hoping that others will save the project from itself. I hope to return soon, but it depends on whether the project has the strength to complete the process recently praised in the New York Times article. Sorry if this all sounds melodramatic, but I believe this to be a defining point for the project. You have stepped forward and that gives me great hope in the leadership, but for now I wait to see how this plays out. Your skills at moving the community forward constructively are needed now as much as ever before.

—Doug Bell  17:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on this. As you say, it's essential for the record to be as open as possible: the praise of open process praised in the NYT article is marred by the opening sentence "In a blink, the wisdom of the crowd became the fury of the crowd." which sorely mischaracterises the sympathy of many, probably most, of those trying to resolve this difficult human situation. The community seems to me to be doing pretty well with the assistance of Jimbo's helpful words, and the record should be there to make this clear. .. dave souza, talk 18:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Having watched the Essjay drama unfold over the last week, I found Doug Bell's contributions to be the most helpful in putting things into perspective. Take a break, Doug. You've earned it. // Internet Esquire 19:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Honesty, lucidity and/or transparency are essential elements of any reputable journal, paper, or encyclopedia:

As a new editor, using my real name from the beginning; albeit an accused "sock puppeteer," I have seen first hand what can come from a misguided "checkuser" system and I have also been disappointed, having seen thousands of meaningful items of knowledge deleted by individuals seeking to create their own encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia for "the people."

I have said this beautiful creation called Misplaced Pages, should be "the source," of all information...for us, and our children. "THE SOURCE," that does more additions than subtractions; a source with verified proof of facts and the integrity to show it.

By using our real names, ages, and our verifiable credentials, we truly share our experience, strengths, and hope...for our future here.

I suspect without the above, we have many/all of the elements that make "MySpace" a giant machine, however, we are all left without any form of verifiable truth to help substantiate any valid concept or theory ...that we are truly adding value and/or knowledge to our world.

Finally, as a dad, I want my children to use this miracle, with confidence, that someone with verifiable credentials is responsible for reviewing and correcting any lack of verifiable truth, herein.

Thank you for your time, Lee Nysted 18:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem with real names, at least in my situation, is with editing controversial topics. People obsessed with these topics, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories can sometimes engage in trolling and harassment of others. Now, I have met some conspiracy theorists in real life and most do not engage in such behavior. Nonetheless, harassment is a real concern, thus I don't use my real name. But, I also have said pretty much zero about my educational and professional credentials and not making up stuff. Now, if I wanted checkuser or other positions of trust, I find it reasonable that I would have to provide my information to the foundation and let them verify it. --Aude (talk) 19:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I think it is essential that check users are known to all, and I hesitate to say this, be legally accountable for damage caused by any breaches of confidence they should make, in that way perhaps slowly editors may feel encouraged to give identifiable information to the foundation. Giano 19:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

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