Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:46, 4 June 2023

Template:Vital article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. India: Tamil Nadu / History Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Tamil Nadu (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (assessed as High-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Hinduism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HinduismWikipedia:WikiProject HinduismTemplate:WikiProject HinduismHinduism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Former countries (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesFormer countries Tamil civilization (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Tamil civilization, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Tamil civilizationWikipedia:WikiProject Tamil civilizationTemplate:WikiProject Tamil civilizationTamil civilization Dravidian civilizations (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dravidian civilizations, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Dravidian civilizationsWikipedia:WikiProject Dravidian civilizationsTemplate:WikiProject Dravidian civilizationsDravidian civilizations

Etymology Of pallavas

Hello Kautilya3, I am opening new discussion on 'Etymology' section added by Nittawinoda. I believe the content added by the user is not following WP:NPOV.

The content added by the user under Etymology section is as below

The word Pallava means a creeper or branch in Sanskrit. They were also called Tondaiyar after the word Tondai, meaning creeper. The Pallavas were also known as Kaduvetti in the Ganga grants. The term Kaduvetti means destroyer of forests, in Tamil, an obvious reference to their role in the establishment of agrarian settlements and townships by clearing the forests and introducing civilization.

My objections on the same

1. The word Pallava means a creeper or branch.
My view: As per the sources , The word Pallava is a sanskrit word and the same was masked by user.

2. They were also called Tondaiyar after the word Tondai, meaning creeper.
My comment: Pallavas who migrated further south to tondai and adopted local traditions which happened in later statges and pallavas and the word existed much before that. Tondaiyar and pallava are two different words of two different languages. Hence I believe 'Tondaiyar' is a kind of translation in other language at later stage and adding the same in etymology is what I believe 'unnecessary content. I leave this to admin suggestion to retain or not

3. The Pallavas were also known as Kaduvetti in the Ganga grants.
My comment: As per the same sources, later pallavas were called by this name. what one has to do with etymology of 'Pallava' with that of what later pallavas being referred in some grants of other dynasty.,br>

4. in Tamil, an obvious reference to their role in the establishment of agrarian settlements and townships by clearing the forests and introducing civilization.
My comment: I believe this is not sourced rather self written. Even if sourced it does not look as it any has relevance with etymology of 'Pallava'.

Apart from the above,

Pallavas etymology is also believed with that of 'Pahalvas' and even this should be included

@Kautilya3, Request your moderation on the same. Thanks By LovSLif (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, Request you to also validate the soutrces and content by

Nittawinoda for etymology. The content written in the section is a complete POV self written with out of context matter.Not even single sentence in this section deserve any support. By LovSLif (talk) 07:28, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Restart

@Kautilya3: Hi would like to tweak the etymology section as follows, please let me know your thoughts on this:

"As per historians Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund, the name Pallava which means leaves or foliage is the Sanskrit equivalent of the the Tamil word tondai which designates their original domain, namely Tondaimandalam." Moreover, the later Pallavas also called themselves as Kaduvetti, meaning destroyer of forests. -- Nittawinoda (talk) 15:13, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

References

1. Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund. A History of India. Psychology Press, 2004. p. 120.
2. Andhra Pradesh (India). Department of Archaeology. Andhra Pradesh Government Archaeological Series, Issue 29. Government of Andhra Pradesh, Department of Archaeology, 1960. p. 55.
3. N. Ramesan. Copper Plate Inscriptions of the State Museum, Volume 3. Government of Andhra Pradesh, 1960 - Decca, India. p. 55.
4. Gautam Sengupta, Suchira Roychoudhury, Sujit Som. Past and present: ethnoarchaeology in India. Pragati Publications in collaboration with Centre for Archaeological Studies and Training, Eastern India, 2006. p. 133.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
5. Bridget Allchin. Living Traditions: Studies in the Ethnoarchaeology of South Asia. Oxbow Books, 1994. p. 212.

Nittawinoda, I find it difficult to follow how the scholars are able to connect Pallava = leaves to Tondai = creeper. Every plant has leaves, whether it is creeper or not. This seems like confirmation bias to me.

In any case, we need to state the facts first before getting into interpretations.

• In the first inscription of Simhavarman, the name is spelt as "Palava". (Aiyangar & Nilakanta Sastri 1960, pp. 315–316 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAiyangarNilakanta_Sastri1960 (help))
• The southernmost people of Mauryan empire were named "Paladas" (Sanskrit: Pulindas) in some of the Ashokan inscriptions (Sathianathaier 1970, pp. 256–257 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSathianathaier1970 (help))

These connections seem much more direct than the Pallava ~ Tondai connection. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think it is worth bothering about "kaduvetti" because it is described as a 'title' or 'epithet', not their name. Moreover, "later Pallavas" are supposed to have used it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:52, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Kautilya3 I concur with you when you say the connections are not direct between Tondai and Pallava. Besides, Chutu Pallava is mentioned as the ancestor of Veera Kurcha. This is noteworthy to mention. They used the term "Pallava" not Tondai. To quote from the Bombay Historical Society, "The father of Virak'ircha, according to the same authority, was a prince called Chuta-Pallava".

References

1. Pran Nath Chopra, T. K. Ravindran, N. Subrahmanian. Ancient period. S. Chand, 1979. p. 29.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. Journal, Volumes 1-2. Bombay Historical Society, 1928. p. 262.

By LovSLif (talk) 22:17, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: A few things,

1. We're talking about "etymology" of the word "Pallava". So merely suggesting someone was named Pallava or that they figure in some inscription will not suffice. We should rather try and identify how the Pallavas came to be called as such. The word Pallava has been translated variously as sprout, twig, bud, branch, creeper, leaves, foliage etc.

2. Ram Sharan Sharma states that the word Pallava means creeper and is the Sanskrit version of the Tamil word Tondai.

3. So whether Pallava is translated as leaves/foliage or as a creeper, scholars and historians equate it with the Tamil word Tondai. This is key because Tondaimandalam was named after the Tondaiyar (or vice-versa), the people whom some historians equate with the Pallavas. Now if you consider this reasoning it is much easier to understand why they may have called themselves as Pallavas in the Sanskrit-Prakrit grants for it is simply the Sanskrit word for Tondai. FYI, the Pallavas never called themselves Pallava in the Tamil grants. They were called Pottarasar or Pottaraiyar like Nandipottaraiyar or Narasimhapottaraiyar etc.

4. Now my question to you is, why are you second guessing Kulke and Rothermund's interpretation? I thought this was not a Forum as you earlier told me

5. Chutu-Pallava should not be included as you mentioned earlier , since the 9th century Velurpalaiyam plates tries to make claims about ancestors in the 2nd century. This is one of the reasons why the different grants do not agree on genealogy. If at all the earliest ruler named Pallava must be mentioned and this ruler is the son of "Aswattama" as per the plates (check )

Nittawinoda (talk) 17:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

References

1. Ram Sharan Sharma. India's Ancient Past. Oxford University Press, 2005. p. 267.

Well, NPOV issues are not settled by citing particular sources, but by looking at all the reliable sources. Since we have two theories in the Origins section, we can't write the Etymology section as if only one of them is valid. Not all scholars equate Pallava and Tondai. Aiyangar & Nilakanta Sastri don't do it. Srinivas Iyengar has said it is "untenable". It would be best if we report facts in the Etymology section and fewer theories. (And I am certainly not going to go anywhere near Virakurcha theories.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:15, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Iranian culture

Hi,

I removed below from history/origin of pallava. Because there cannot be any link to Pallava in Tamilanadu to Iran. It is just vandalising this page. Non of the south Indian history on pallava predicts their origin to other than Inida. Palalvas not just follow Hinduism and south indian culture, they cultivated Hindusim, enriched, enhanced Hindu system from their heart. Nothing linked to Iranian culture. See the links to their Hinduism https://en.wikipedia.org/Venkateswara_Temple,_Tirumala. and https://en.wikipedia.org/Mamallapuram.

Removed content; The Iran chambers have sighted it is from Iranian lineage in this website http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/india_parthian_colony1.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8F8:1327:3429:945B:5B24:2E5B:AE1B (talk) 09:03, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Nice work. That was an unreliable racialism filled site. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

(Tamil:பல்லவ சாம்ராஜ்யம்) (Telugu:పల్లవ సామ్రాజ్యం) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:400:6F0:9973:8555:8FE7:4BEA (talk) 02:01, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

What is this about? Are you trying to add these in teh infobox or lead. Not happening as per our WP:NOINDICSCRIPT policy. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Is Mamallar are pallava rulers

Yes mallars are pallars Mamallar is narasimha Varma pallavan Yes they are pallava rulers Raja.m82 (talk) 09:12, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Common Languages Used by Pallavas

There is no proof that Pallavas used Telugu. It should be removed from Common Languages. Pikachu 9988 (talk) 05:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class India articles
• Mid-importance India articles
• C-Class India articles of Mid-importance
• C-Class Tamil Nadu articles
• High-importance Tamil Nadu articles
• C-Class Tamil Nadu articles of High-importance
• WikiProject Tamil Nadu articles
• C-Class Indian history articles
• High-importance Indian history articles
• C-Class Indian history articles of High-importance
• WikiProject Indian history articles
• WikiProject India articles
• C-Class Hinduism articles
• Mid-importance Hinduism articles