Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:52, 30 June 2023

Why are antifa not classed in this manner? I have witnessed absolute despicable behaviour from antifa .

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Proud Boys article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7Auto-archiving period: 3 months

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: I'd like to suggest a change. Where should I start? A1: Great! The first thing you should do is check that no one else has already brought up your suggestion. You can check this by going through the current discussions below, or by searching the talk archives. Q2: Why does the article describe the Proud Boys as "far-right", "neo-fascist" or as having connections to white supremacists? A2: Misplaced Pages is built off reliable sources, and the significant and clear majority of sources use such descriptions. You can see a few selected sources for these determinations in the article's content, though many other sources have also been included in previous talk discussions: far-right discussion, neo-fascist discussion, white supremacy discussion. Discussion amongst editors around this happened in 2020, resulting in an editorial consensus to keep this three terms per all available evidence. Q3: I have a connection to the Proud Boys, but there's something wrong. A3: Neutrality is important to Misplaced Pages, so editors with conflicts of interests are generally discouraged from editing directly, and instead should request edits to be made to ensure their independence. This can be done by creating a new talk section, describing your request (including what needs changing and sources), and adding {{Request edit}} to the top of the section. If there is something wrong like spelling or grammar, feel free to change it yourself, but any meaningful changes are best to be discussed first. Q4: What sort of policies should I be aware of before I start editing? A4: If you're wanting to jump in and start editing, it's best that you're familiar with Misplaced Pages's neutrality, verifiability (referencing), and biography policies. We're all here to help build a better encyclopedia, so if you would like some help making sure your change is okay or would like a second pair of eyes to skim over it before you save it, just post a new message on the talk page!

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Conservatism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Men's Issues Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Men's Issues, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Men's Issues articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Men's IssuesWikipedia:WikiProject Men's IssuesTemplate:WikiProject Men's IssuesMen's Issues Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Discrimination High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Organizations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organizations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Organizations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OrganizationsWikipedia:WikiProject OrganizationsTemplate:WikiProject Organizationsorganization Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics: American Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Crime and Criminal Biography: Terrorism This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Terrorism task force (assessed as Low-importance).

Before requesting any edits to this protected article, please familiarise yourself with reliable sourcing requirements. Before posting an edit request on this talk page, please read the reliable sourcing and original research policies. These policies require that information in Misplaced Pages articles be supported by citations from reliable independent sources, and disallow your personal views, observations, interpretations, analyses, or anecdotes from being used. Only content verified by subject experts and other reliable sources may be included, and uncited material may be removed without notice. If your complaint is about an assertion made in the article, check first to see if your proposed change is supported by reliable sources. If it is not, it is highly unlikely that your request will be granted. Checking the archives for previous discussions may provide more information. Requests which do not provide citations from reliable sources, or rely on unreliable sources, may be subject to closure without any other response.

The Proud Boys have a history of self-published claims that often contradict independent reliable sources. As per the fringe perspectives policy and self-description guidelines, these statements should be mentioned, but attributed in-text to the group and be within the context of coverage from reliable sources. Be careful not to give undue weight to the Proud Boys' statements, especially when they conflict with reliable sources.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 2 times. The weeks in which this happened: September 27 to October 3, 2020 October 4 to 10, 2020

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: Park, Meadhbh (2022). "Fight Club: Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys, and Male Supremacism". In Carian, Emily K.; DiBranco, Alex; Ebin, Chelsea (eds.). Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right. Abingdon, England: Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781003164722. ISBN 978-1-0005-7622-1.

Should we add anti Zionism to the Ideology list?

The founder, Gavin Mclnnes once wrote a list about the things he hates about Israel, one of the Proud Boys leaders said Zionists are criminals who are trying destroy our civilization. Bradenmeddleton (talk) 05:21, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any sources we can cite for those statements? — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:08, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

https://www.jta.org/2020/11/11/united-states/a-leader-of-the-proud-boys-says-it-is-now-a-fully-white-supremacist-group-called-the-proud-goys Bradenmeddleton (talk) 14:37, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this source is sufficient to identify this as part of the group's overall ideology. The source notes It is unclear how Chapman’s call has been received by others in the group. Other Proud Boys channels on Telegram have not reflected the changes he wants to institute, and a message from the administrator of one said, “No, we are not the Proud Goys. No, Kyle didn’t stage a coup,” and then referred to him with an ableist slur. If this change were broadly accepted, I would expect additional sources would have reported on it in the intervening two plus years. VQuakr (talk) 23:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The word "always" needs to be changed in the sentence

"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump, who has always denounced such groups, including the Proud Boys."

because it simply isn't true, as later described in the article.

I suggest the following

"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump, who sometimes denounced and sometimes offered acknowledgement of such groups, including the Proud Boys." Chuckjonesbabygorilla (talk) 03:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: I'm going to change "has always" to "has". "Offered acknowledgement" doesn't appear in the article and needs consensus. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Ideology

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

So i looked through the PDF linked in Reference No. 1. The word "Chauvinism" are mentioned two times, "Authoritarianism" are mentioned one time, "islamophobia" are mentioned 0 times and none of those are in relation to the subject of the article.

Does the reference really support the statements or am i missing something?

Overall it might be a good idea to diversify the references for the ideology section of the infobox Trade (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Callmemirela 🍁 19:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Trying to get some consensus here @Callmemirela:--Trade (talk) 21:02, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Then the edit request template is inappropriate to establish consensus. Callmemirela 🍁 21:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll make the change myself if i dont get any responses within a week Trade (talk) 21:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Trade @Callmemirela Authoritarianism is not an ideology, but a political system; it should be removed.

Anti-immigration, anti-feminism and anti-LGBT rights can be summarized with the term social conservatism.

What do you think of the following ideologies (as internal factions)?

• Pinochetism

"The Proud Boys have increasingly embraced Pinochet as a sort of mascot. “Helicopter ride” memes and the phrase “Make Rotary Aircraft Great Again” – references to the dictator’s practice of dropping political enemies from helicopters – are common on Proud Boys’ social media posts. At one point, the group also sold merchandise and gear featuring a crest associated with Pinochet."

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys

• Occidentalism

"but welcome non-white members as long as these members acknowledge that Western civilization is superior to all others"

https://www.populismstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ECPS-Organisation-Profile-Series-1.pdf

• Right-wing libertarianism

"Despite purporting to oppose government tyranny, the Proud Boys’ values exemplify the slippage between right-libertarianism and fascism (Vitolo-Haddad, 2019), working toward what Michael Orth (1990) described as a “libertarian Utopia which combines violence, repression of women, and a dictatorial state into an all-American Utopia which emits strong fascist resonances.” Similarly, political scientist Adolph Reed, Jr. (2013) argues that this contradiction is inevitable in right-wing libertarianism, and the Proud Boys adopt a libertarian “aesthetic” of freedom to promote a politics that is often authoritarian"

https://www.populismstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ECPS-Organisation-Profile-Series-1.pdf 93.45.229.98 (talk) 13:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Sounds excellent to me Trade (talk) 14:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Participation in the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (2017)

The episode should be added to the proud boys history section.

References:

"In March 2017, a Proud Boys member named Brandon Vaughan of the Ottawa, Canada, chapter assaulted a Palestinian-American community college professor. Videos of the assault show Proud Boys members fighting alongside the Jewish Defense League, a right-wing militant organization." https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys

"Vaughan is a prominent member of the Ottawa Proud Boys, a right-wing group that describes itself as “Western chauvinists.” He is also a regular at far right protests in Ottawa, Toronto and elsewhere in Canada." https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges https://canoe.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges/wcm/5b97e2c2-4875-47c4-a5e9-730ae5a8e916 93.45.229.98 (talk) 13:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Symbolism

I propose to add the following:

RWDS - Right Wing Death Squad https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2023/05/09/what-to-know-about-right-wing-death-squad-phrase-linked-to-texas-shooter-proud-boys/

Hoppean snake https://theintercept.com/2021/02/04/pinochet-far-right-hoppean-snake/

If you know of anything else please say. 93.45.229.98 (talk) 13:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

p.s. POYB - Proud Of Your Boy

https://extremismterms.adl.org/glossary/proud-your-boy-poyb 93.45.229.98 (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Issues (June, 2023)

The neo-fascism template is "open" and takes up much of the page. In the other Misplaced Pages articles it is "closed" (see show/hide).

There is also a neo-Nazi template that I am not quite sure what it is for. The group is not listed in that template. Also, why in the major action (in the militant organization template) is there not the January 6 Capitol attack instead of "terrorism" which is much more vague?

The organization, formerly registered as Proud Boys International LLC, is now decentralized; the groups are semi-autonomous:

"The Proud Boys is a decentralized organization with semi-autonomous chapters in several U.S. states."

https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys

From the way it is written on the ADL website, the organization appears to be international:

"Proud Boys have international chapters in Canada, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Australia and the Philippines."

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/proud-boys-0

Kyle Chapman's expulsion is missing.

https://www.insider.com/ousted-proud-boys-underling-attempts-white-supremacist-coup-2020-11

Libertarian Party candidates and Proud Boys members:

Alex Furman

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/he-was-a-drug-smuggler-now-hes-a-proud-boy-and-running-against-cori-bush-34136115

Augustus Sol Invictus before being expelled from the Proud Boys

https://reason.com/2016/11/07/florida-senate-candidate-struggles-bears/

While affiliation with the GOP is present, affiliations with the Libertarian Party have been omitted. In my opinion they are to be incorporated into the article.

93.45.229.98 (talk) 16:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages articles that use American English
• All unassessed articles
• Pages using WikiProject banner shell with duplicate banner templates
• C-Class Conservatism articles
• Low-importance Conservatism articles
• WikiProject Conservatism articles
• C-Class Men's Issues articles
• Low-importance Men's Issues articles
• WikiProject Men's Issues articles
• C-Class Discrimination articles
• High-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles
• C-Class organization articles
• Low-importance organization articles
• WikiProject Organizations articles
• C-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• C-Class American politics articles
• Unknown-importance American politics articles
• American politics task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• C-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• C-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject United States articles
• C-Class Crime-related articles
• Low-importance Crime-related articles
• WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
• Unassessed Crime-related articles
• Unknown-importance Crime-related articles
• Unassessed Terrorism articles
• Low-importance Terrorism articles
• Terrorism task force articles
• Pages in the Misplaced Pages Top 25 Report