Revision as of 17:44, 19 March 2007

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March 13

'Shop' and 'store'

What are the different usages for these two terms? In the UK, I think we would normally use 'shop' in an undifferentiated sense. We would also usually refer to a bookshop and a record (CD, maybe) shop. But we use 'store' in terms like department store and general store. I get the impression that American English uses 'bookstore' and 'record store'. Is 'shop' as a noun ever encountered in American English, and if so when? --Richardrj 07:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, you go shopping in stores, but shop normally refers to where you take something to get repaired, or made. For example, you take your car to the shop, or the model is being made in the shop. I can't think of an example where you'd call a store a shop off the top of my head. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 08:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. In that sense of 'shop' the normal British English word would be 'workshop' (a word that has also taken on a secondary meaning, that of a discussion group or exercise). Does this word exist in American English? --Richardrj 08:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Using Wirbelwind's example (which I took to be talking about a location you would take a car to to get it repaired) "take your car to the shop". I'm sure the British version would more likely be "take your car to the garage". - X201 12:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

At least in its secondary meaning, I think... 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 12:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Americans certainly recognize "shop" as a kind of synonym for "store" but don't often use it in that sense. I think that there are differences in nuance between the two words. I think that "shop" means either "workshop" or "place where mechanics work" on the one hand, or "little store" on the other hand. For example, you might go to a "card shop" to buy greeting cards. I think that for Americans, a "shop" (if it is not a place where mechanics work on cars or other equipment) is a small store, typically oriented to pedestrians rather than car drivers, that typically sells small and dainty items. Most Americans do not often shop at such a shop. Generally they shop at stores instead, which are typically larger, with multiple aisles, and, except in the densest cities, ample parking. We do have the word "workshop" in American English as well. "Shop" is a shorter form of "workshop", which sounds a bit more formal. Marco polo 13:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It occurred to me that the prototypical "shop" in American English might be "gift shop". I don't think I've ever heard of a "gift store". And then there is that American cliché, a shop named "Ye Olde ____ Shoppe" (where the blank indicates what is sold there). The word "shop", when used to mean a kind of store, implies quaintness, all the more so because it is more often pronounced with a British accent. Marco polo 13:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

An example of the latter is The Shop Around the Corner, which is indeed a gift shop (and not a bookstore/bookshop as in the remake You've Got Mail). Plenty of bookstores in (for example) NYC call themselves "bookshop", possibly to suggest the specialized knowledge you expect less and less from a store. Also, there seem to be a lot more flowershops than flowerstores in New York. Who needs stored flowers? While there are more mon-and-pop stores than mom-and-pop shops, the difference is marginal.  --Lambiam 14:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Enlighten me, please, as to the contents of a mom-and-pop store (I've never heard the term). I'd love to believe it sold mothers and fathers to orphaned children, but I suspect the truth might be rather more prosaic. --Richardrj 14:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a small family-owned and -run store. The name suggests that it is run by a married couple, perhaps assisted by their children. Marco polo 15:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

See List of American words not widely used in the United Kingdom#M.  --Lambiam 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Though it appears that USians still go shopping even if they go to a store. The OED has the origin of 'shop' as the Old English 'sceoppa' (etymologically related to 'shippon'), meaning a lean-to, shed, booth or vestibule. The earliest recorded use is to describe the Jerusalem Temple treasury in the Old English Gospels. On the other hand, 'store' seems to be a newer character. It is attested in Middle English as 'stor' and, earlier, 'estor', and is from the Old French 'estor', meaning 'provision' or 'a stock of provisions'. It would make more sense if places that sold provisions were called stores, and little specialist outlets called shops. I used to live in Darlington in the North East. There used to be a large section of railway factories along North Road, which were called the North Road Shops, but you could only buy rolling stock there. — Gareth Hughes 17:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Americans have barbershops where Britons often just have barber's (actually I guess the plural would be barbers'). Americans often have coffeehouses rather than coffee shops. And instead of chip shops they have...um... diners? Britain has department stores and chain stores, but the village shop, if it exists, is not a general store. jnestorius 22:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

A "shop" definitely sounds smaller and friendlier than a "store." The little second-hand bookstores downtown call themselves "bookshops," but if Barnes & Noble called itself a "bookshop," it would sound phony. Note that in some parts of the U.S., it's common to refer to the local grocery store/supermarket as simply "the store." As in: "Can you stop by the store to pick up some horseradish on your way home?" -- Mwalcoff 22:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, jnestorius, the plural of barber is just "barbers". Inserting an apostrophe is ... well, wrong. You didn't put an apostrophe with Americans, barbershops, coffeehouses, shops, diners, or stores - so why make an exception for barbers? :) JackofOz 00:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

barber's is singular: it's an abbreviation of barber's shop. You say "I'm going to the barber's" if the shop has only one barber. OTOH, whether there are several barbers in one shop, or several each with his own, then barbers' is the abbreviation: for both barbers' shop and barbers' shops. Similarly, in Britain you go to the baker's, not the bakery. jnestorius 01:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I see what you're getting at now. I guess I was confused by your comparison between barbershops and barbers.  :) JackofOz 01:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How do you correct a spelling mistake in a non-editable area?

Reference>> Horatio Alger Jr

In the first paragraph, last sentence...

"As bestsellers in their own time, Alger's books rivaled those of Mark Twain in popsularitine"

It probably should read as...

"As bestsellers in their own time, Alger's books rivaled those of Mark Twain in popularity."

Regards,

Chris —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.47.1.226 (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

It is an editable area. But it seems to have been fixed now in any case. Regards, --Richardrj 17:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Look at the very top edge of the page. There should be a tab marked "edit this page" which will allow you to edit the first paragraph, section headings, and so on. Shui9 22:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Term, pronunciation, and legal standing for a third party who pays legal cost

I cannot find a legal term for one who pays the legal cost for one whom needs legal representation. Can you help me with this legal latin term and if I am protected (and process of protection of remaining unknown to court and complaintants.

Thank You and Respectfully,

Dennis —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.119.200.61 (talk) 17:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

It is not completely clear what you are asking for. In the United States there is the figure of the public defender in criminal cases for defendants who can't afford a lawyer. The cost is then borne by the local government (read: the tax payer). In civil cases one rarely needs legal representation. In various places there are legal assistance groups, like in New York the New York Legal Assistance Group. As far as I know, there is no uniform solution to the problem, and what you are asking for is not a legal concept, let alone that there would be a Latin term for it. I don't understand the part about being protected and process remaining unknown. Can you rephrase that in plain English?  --Lambiam 19:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Lambiam, I think you are misunderstanding the question. Either that or I am misunderstanding your reply. Surely you did not mean to write that "in civil cases one rarely needs legal representation". --Mathew5000 22:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is that there is often no legal procedural requirement to have a lawyer; you can represent yourself. See Pro se. Whether that is wise is another matter, but it implies that "the system" can get away with not providing a solution for legal representation of indigent parties to a lawsuit.  --Lambiam 09:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is possible that the term being sought is champertor. Note that champerty was traditionally prohibited although the law is in flux on that point and of course it depends on the particular jurisdiction. As I understand it, the question here is asking essentially this: If X is involved in a legal proceeding against Y, and Z puts up the money to pay for X's lawyer, is the identity of Z protected by privilege or can Y find it out? Also if X loses in court, is there a possibility that Z will be liable to Y (for legal costs, e.g.). Clearly no good answer can be given to the question considering that the questioner did not even specify what country he or she is talking about. --Mathew5000 22:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a little blurb on this issue in Ohio: . --Mathew5000 07:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Or it could be Maintenance. It's illegal though.203.109.167.159 08:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Seeking help from Bengali speakers

i want to know the meaning of my name,SHIMOLI, in bengali language..!!can u help me plz?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.95.203.174 (talk) 06:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

y cant any one answer my question?? plzz help me find it!!!

Sorry that we have a lack of expertise in Indian languages. I have almost no such expertise myself. Hopefully someone will come along who can help. Marco polo 17:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If you can speak bengali you are probably better placed to answer this than us. Perhaps you could ask the question somewhere on the Bengali Misplaced Pages. If it is any help personal names are often mad up or borrowed from other languages simply because they sound nice. There is a Shimoli plain in Afganistan and shimoli apparently means north in the Uzbek language. It also means stinging or smarting like a wound in the Choctaw language. meltBanana 20:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

but i m not a bengali...i dont even understand a word of bengali language.. plz help me find the meaning in bengali...plz???

I have taken the liberty of changing the title of your query so that it might be more likely to attract someone who could help. Marco polo 19:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Shimoli, here is another suggestion. Here is a List of Wikipedians whose native language is Bengali. You might try leaving messages on their user talk pages. Click the person's name in the list to go to his/her user page. Then click on the "Discussion" tab. Your best bet would be to ask the question of a user who has several posts on his/her talk page, which would indicate that he/she is an active editor. Marco polo 19:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Translation

what is a reposteria from Spanish to English? (accent on the i)Coffsneeze 20:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

A generic term for sweet things, including confectionery, pudding, cake, icecream.  --Lambiam 20:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Translate into german "a broken limb of a shipwrecked faction"

Hallo, Algornon Sidney (1622-1683) wandered about Europe for almost twenty years “as a vagabond through the world, forsaken of my friends, poor, and known only to be a broken limb of a shipwrecked faction.” Can you translate or describe what the meaning of ""'a broken limb of a shipwrecked faction.” is? The other parts are no problem for me. Thanks in advance -- Jlorenz1 20:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Germans can't help me see this page -- Jlorenz1 20:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

In this, the word 'faction' represents Sidney's political group — he and those who supported his position. At this stage, his once powerful faction had lost its leading position and was unable to influence the politics of the day — poetically, 'shipwrecked'. In some senses, 'limb' can simply refer to a separate, or almost separate, part of something. Just as a ship wrecked splinters, so his faction splintered, and he remained a lone limb, like a timber from such a wreck that floats on the sea. I think 'vagabond' and 'forsaken' speaks for itself. — Gareth Hughes 22:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I actually thought that the Germans did a fairly good job of translating and explaining the phrase, which is a bit obscure even to a native English speaker. Marco polo 00:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the meaning was well explained. An attempt at a translation that keeps some of the original flavour: "ein gebrochenes Glied einer Partei die Schiffbruch erlitten hat".  --Lambiam 06:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all, it is really complicated. Should I use a close translation or should I try to find a similiar metapher - (I will find a solution)? Background is the writing competition in the german wikipedia and this articel about Algernon Sidney in work. -- Jlorenz1 08:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

March 14

Language without questions

Many people post things on the reference desks which are not framed as questions, but merely as declarations. Naturally, I assumed these people were idiots, but in the spirit of WP:AGF assumed they were not native speakers of English, and their natural language did not have interrogative sentences. So, my question is: There is a language without questions. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 04:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No, every language has a way of marking questions. The written form of the language, however, may not have any way of marking it. It's also possible for questions to be marked only be means of things like intonation (English does this with the question forms of declarative sentences, like "you gave it to her already?"), although even for languages that do that, I'm almost positive there will always be interrogative pronouns (like "who?" "what?", etc.) as well. --Miskwito 04:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Some questions in the Gaelic languages take the same form as the affirmative (though pitch inflection tips you off that it's a question), and in Welsh the only difference between many questions and their responses is a single letter. ("Ydyn ni'n mynd nawr? Ydyn. Rydyn ni'n mind nawr." = "Are we going now? Yes, we are going now.") The Jade Knight 06:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Differing pitch seems to be common for denoting questions worldwide. For Chinese, questions are marked with a particular high-pitch "question word" at the end. In some languages, questions are apparently marked with a low-pitch, how odd it appears to me... It is hard to imagine a working language without interrogative sentences, actually. Seems to be a basis for human communication and interaction. I have a hard time figuring how crucial collective tasks such as animal-hunting, fishing and planning journeys for richer places to stay, could be performed in a reasonably efficient manner without asking questions and receiving answers in your tribe... 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 12:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Idiots they are then! − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 19:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe they are just too lazy to use ?s :] HS7 19:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This question reminds me of the scene in My Cousin Vinny where one of the yout's is being interrogated and the sheriff says something like "So is that when you shot the clerk?" Having no idea until this moment that there had been a shooting, he replies: "I shot the clerk?" And later this four-word sentence is read back in court -- as a confession, by just repeating the four words without inflection. --Anonymous, March 14, 2007, 22:41 (UTC)?

Note that you can't tell a real question from a rhetorical question in written English. Does "Do you think I'm insane ?" mean I'm asking you for a serious evaluation of my mental condition or that I am berating you for treating me as if I were insane ? StuRat 02:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Related to that, I wonder if there's a language without imperative (command) statements. – b_jonas 20:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What is this language?

This is of Jerome's "De Viris Illustribus" (On Famous Men). What language? --Doug 13:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Russian. Marco polo 14:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Russian. Translated by Ruslan Khazarzar who has a massive website of translated old texts. - X201 14:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're not aware of it, already, you could also check out the article on the Cyrillic alphabet, (itself heavily based on the Greek alphabet). 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 14:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

... just like ours :) Sarazyn • TALK • DE 15:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but not as much, I'd say. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 17:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, so German is also based on Greek: did not know that. --Doug 15:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, the German alphabet (a variant of our Roman alphabet) is based on the Greek alphabet. The German language is not derived from the Greek language, although some (mostly learned or scientific) words are borrowed from Greek. Marco polo 16:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Whereas Greek loan words in German are rare. For a view of relationships between German and Greek see Indo-European languages. Sarazyn • TALK • DE 14:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

De Viris Illustribus

Does anyone know of other text translations of "De Viris Illustribus" (On Illustribus Men) other than Latin, Greek, English, and Russian? --Doug 15:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As a Church father, I am sure that he has been translated into every major European language and probably into a handful of Asian languages as well. Marco polo 16:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that is pretty much what I thought. Perhaps you can help me on another related question. I am working on the article Jerome's De Viris Illustribus and another editor says that while translations into English, Latin, and ancient Greet are appropriate links under the section "Texts in various languages" -> that the Russian translation is not appropriate. What do you think? Are other languages (i.e.German, French, Italian) proper to put here, or only just those three mentioned? --Doug 18:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

My opinion is that it is not particularly helpful to English readers to have translated texts in languages other than English. The original text is helpful in case the reader knows the original language and does not want recourse to a translation. Therefore, I would question the appropriateness of the Greek text as well, since Jerome wrote in Latin. Instead of "Texts in various languages", I would prefer a heading such as "Links to the text" or "Original text and translations". If you can find more than one English translation, that would be helpful, because often one is strong in ways that another is not. Marco polo 19:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll stay out of this except to say that I'm the "other editor," and I figured the Greek version was of some interest because it seems to date to Jerome's lifetime. The article De Viris Illustribus (Jerome) could certainly use the eyes of many other editors; it's been taking way too much of my Misplaced Pages time to try to be the only editor actively involved in the article, besides its author Doug. Wareh 14:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Sanskrit

Which modern languages are closest to sanskrit? While am at it, can I ask the same about latin? Italian would seem the obvious answer but often Spanish seems closer, e.g. dia>giorno —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.85.161.130 (talk) 19:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

The Indo-Aryan, or Indic, languages are all roughly similarly related to Sanskrit. You are right that Spanish is more conservative than Italian in some ways, but probably the most conservative Romance language is Sardinian. Marco polo 20:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does French seem a lot less loyal than either Italian or Spanish? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.85.161.213 (talk) 20:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

It isn't a question of "loyalty". The main difference between French and the other Romance languages is that French has undergone more phonological change, which in turn has led to the complete loss of many syllables. The loss of audible inflectional verb endings has caused French to become more analytic than Spanish or Italian. Unlike those two languages, for example, the use of subject pronouns is obligatory in French. Marco polo 21:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If Spanish is so close to Latin, then Portuguese is close to Latin as well, since they are so close to one another. I know Portuguese and it looks really far from Latin to me, which makes this competition about which language is the closest to Latin more like a competition of which language is less far away from Latin. A.Z. 10:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me correct my earlier statement about Indic languages. While they are all descended from Sanskrit or a close relative of Sanskrit, possibly the most conservative of the Indic languages, both in terms of phonology and vocabulary, is Marathi. The vocabulary of the most widely spoken Indic language, Hindi, was heavily influenced by Persian. The same is true for other North Indian languages, other than Bengali and Assamese. Bengali and Assamese, however, are less conservative phonologically than Marathi. Marco polo 21:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I heard many times Romanian was the closest to Latin. A.Z. 18:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't that just for particular grammatical traits? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 20:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don´t know. I just heard it. So what people meant by that was that Romanian is the closest language to Latin when it comes to particular grammatical traits? A.Z. 05:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what people meant. (They might just possibly perceive it incorrectly.) I've read some criticism of that statement, though. For instance, Romanian has replaced a big deal of Latinate vocabulary with Slavic (but I don't know the exact details). 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 10:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I've heard the Romanian is the closest language to Latin too. Aparently, although there are come slavic and hungarian influences, the language was largly isolated from other languages. Italian and Romanain are very close to each other- if you know romanian, then you could understand most of italian.

Adding a Language Summary Box?

Greetings: I am working on adding a page for the language Ventureño. I want to add a language summary box, such as the one on the right hand side of the page on the English Language. This seems to be some kind of standard format, though, so I do not know where I would get this template/spreadsheet nor do I know how I would put it on the page for the language I am talking about.

Alaquwel 23:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit one article with an infobox, copy/paste the source for the infobox and adjust the statistics to your language. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you're talking about Template:Infobox Language. The instructions can be found here. — Gareth Hughes 23:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've added the infobox to Ventureño. — Gareth Hughes 23:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

March 15

As straight as a die (or dye)

I have heard this expression used in a complimentary sense meaning honest and reliable. What die or dye are they comparing a person to, there seem so many possibilities? Incidentally, is there a list of common similes on Misplaced Pages? I could not find one. Thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.211.153.199 (talk) 07:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

It refers to this kind of die. I guess it means that a die is reliable in that it can't be misused - you get an even 1/6 chance and that's it. Oops - I just discovered there are at least two other meanings of 'die' that the simile could refer to - a device used for shaping metal, and a cutting tool that is fitted into a diestock and used for cutting screw threads on screws or bolts or pipes or rods. So now, I'm confused too. --Richardrj 08:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This page suggests it's the engineering kind of die. --Richardrj 08:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I always believed it was the engineering kind. Don't know why though. Capuchin 11:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've always taken it to be about the type of die that metal is extruded through. Metal extruded through such a die is of a constant dependable form, inferring the same qualities on a person. - X201 11:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The OED thinks it refers to the small, cubic spotty, gambling dices. The earliest cite for "straight as a die" is 1877 but "smooth as" and "true as" go back much further with "smooth as" from 1530. This is considerably older than the mechanical uses of the word although the word die to mean any small cube is older. meltBanana 15:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Source of the Arabic phrase "لا مؤثر في الوجود إلا الله"

Hey all. I asked this first at the Humanities desk (since it seemed, strictly, less purely linguistics- than religion-related), but no response yet.

I'm doing some study on a poem in which it would behoove me to find out the source of the following Arabic phrase: لا مؤثر في الوجود إلا الله. The meaning is basically "none but Allah has dominion over creation", and it is used primarily in reference to tawhid, or the unity of God in Islam ... however, I'm curious about the source of the phrase. Does anyone happen to know? Is it from the Qur'an, from the hadith, from somewhere else? I haven't been able to find an exact-word Arabic Qur'an or hadith search online, and googling the exact phrase didn't help much either (largely because I don't actually know Arabic). Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Cheers. —Saposcat 08:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought I knew this one. I wanted to say Qur'an 39.6, which talks about creation and ends with لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ, but it's not the exact phrase you're looking for. So, that's stumped me. I'll mull it over, and see if I can think of it. — Gareth Hughes 10:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Rule Britannia

• Arose from out the azure main

For translation into de:. As azure means sky-blue, does "main" mean ocean, sky or continent? Thnx -- Cherubino 21:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that main means the open sea here (as in "the bounding main"). ---Sluzzelin talk 21:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It's poetic English and short for main sea, which means the same as high sea or open sea. — Gareth Hughes 23:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Starting and Ending Dates of a Century

I would like to know the actual start date and ending date of a century. For instance, did the 21st century start on January 1, 1901 and end on Dec. 31st, 2000? Can you site a reference?72.10.96.164 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Using the 20th century as an example, the century began on January 1, 1901 and ended on December 31, 2000. More precisely, it began the instant the time was 12:00 a.m. on January 1, 1901 and ended the infinitesimal moment before the time was 12:00 a.m. on January 1, 2001. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no such thing as 12:00 a.m. You mean 12 midnight. --Auximines 09:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there is such a thing as 12:00 a.m. --Ptcamn 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

In the States at least, 12:00 a.m. is known as midnight and 12:00 p.m. is known as noon. Dismas| 00:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is the most common convention today, but it is not universal. Not even in the US. "12:00 a.m." and "12:00 p.m." are usages best avoided. -- Anon, March 18, 8:30 p.m... er, March 19, 00:30 (UTC).

See Century. --Anon, March 15, 2007, 23:16 (UTC).

no 12am is midnight and 12pm is noon because really as soon as the infinitesimalist instant happens its the next day, midnight is considered to be on the next day/morning/am•R_C2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 11:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

March 16

No velar trill?

The consonant table, as shown in velar consonant, says that's impossible to produce a velar trill. Is that really true? I seem to be able to produce a sound that way, which sounds like a non-nasal snoring. It doesn't sound nice, though. It is certainly not uvular - as a German speaker, I'm very familiar with . — Sebastian 01:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I am a non-native speaker of German, but I learned from a native speaker, and I also articulate /ʀ/ as a velar, not uvular, trill. I agree that the consonant table is incorrect. Perhaps two distinct symbols are needed for velar vs. uvular trills? I'd appreciate hearing from another native speaker. Marco polo 13:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's the IPA, not Misplaced Pages, who has declared velar trills impossible. Nevertheless, Peter Ladefoged writes in Sounds of the World's Languages, "Palatal and velar vibrations of the tongue body are sporadically produced, particularly as transitional phenomena in the release phase of Dorsal stops. A 'double burst' is seen particularly often at the release of a velar stop; this could be said to be a brief trill, but it never appears to be a required articulatory target" (p. 230). —Angr 13:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The IPA targets sound distinctions that are, in some language, phonological. It may be that many people make velar trills, but no documented language distinguishes velar trills from uvular ones. --Diderot 16:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's more than just the absence of a symbol (indicating lack of use as a phoneme in any language). The IPA chart actually grays out the cell for "velar trill", with a note that grayed-out cells are "judged impossible". —Angr 16:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Many linguists do not like the IPA for these sorts of reasons. The Jade Knight 08:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the text on the chart is simplifying. Graying-out does not actually indicate that an articulation is entirely impossible. The IPA Handbook actually says:

It's not strictly speaking impossible, but it's too difficult to be produced consistently, hence "it never appears to be a required articulatory target" as Angr quoted above. --Ptcamn 09:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the quote. The mention of the bilabial lateral fricative makes it apparent that my mouth just works differently from the IPA folks: I find it much easier to produce a bilabial lateral fricative than many other consonants. And thanks to Marco: I now think I'm actually pronouncing the German /ʀ/ as a velar trill, or better: somewhere between a trill and a fricative. The snoring-like sound I described earlier results when I increase the pressure, thereby forcing it to only trill. — Sebastian 19:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

translating

how do you translate "decoracion de interiores"--201.201.164.198 02:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

"Interior decorating" --Miskwito 02:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

March 17

How do I pronounce Mount Antero?

http://en.wikipedia.org/Mount_Antero

If you want to edit that entry directly to put this information once you've figured it out, that would be fine, or I would be happy to do it!

I've added an IPA pronunciation based on the pronunciation keys provided on a few online dictionary websites. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

March 18

Author of a famous quote

Who originally said, "What the mind can conceive, the body can achieve."?

Napolean Hill, the famous motivational author, had said something similar to this.

Is this quote one of those authorless truisms that has been around forever?

71.198.134.17 21:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems like Napolean Hill himself was the originator of the quote. --Ptcamn 21:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The quote is: "Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve. See Napoleon Hill. -- JackofOz 01:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Map of the world

Lately I've heard the same expression in two different songs by different artists but I don't know what it means. "Suddenly I See" by KT Tunstall has the line "Her face is a map of the world..." and also "From Yesterday" by 30 Seconds to Mars has "On his face is a map of the world...". I've never heard this before though, what does it mean? Something akin to having a look like the person has had a lot of experiences and isn't naive? Dismas| 00:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

March 19

Question please

What does this hebrew phrase mean ?

רוא-יהיו רוא יהי םיהלא רמאיו —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.157.232.184 (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

It's backwards. That's to say, it only reads correctly if you take it letter-by-letter from left to right (which is difficult if you know any Hebrew, which is written from right to left). It's from Genesis: "And God said, let there be light, and there was light." Cutting and pasting Hebrew seems to produce all kinds of screwy results on many computers. I believe this will display correctly though (contains vowel markings, unlike the posted version): וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור וַֽיְהִי־אֹֽור׃ Wareh 15:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow -- good call, Wareh! I guess the literal answer, then, is that the phrase means "thgil saw ereht dna ,thgil eb ereht tel dias doG dnA." Jfarber 15:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed! I defer to Jfarber's translation. Wareh 16:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

antonyms

Is the antonym of nobility humility or humiliation? And is the verb 'ennobled' the antonym of 'humble' or 'humiliated'?Coffsneeze 02:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wictionary defines the adjective form of noble as "Having honorable qualities; having moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean or dubious in conduct and character." The entry then lists "ignoble" as the sole antonym, which means "common" or "not honorable".

Given that, rather than humility, I'd suggest "pettiness" as an antonym for "nobility", and "dishonored" as the antonym of "ennobled". Jfarber 02:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

How do you say honour in Latin?

Honour as in man of honour. - Pyro19 06:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Early classical Latin: honos, honoris. Classical Latin used Rhotacism, thus honor, honoris. See History of Latin. Rockpocket 07:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC) Withdrawn per the expert correction below. Rockpocket 17:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

In the sense you want, honestas is better than honor (which generally means an honor or office). The man of honor himself is honestus. Wareh 15:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

How should honor be interpreted in the quote honorem, cui honorem from the Vulgate's version of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans? ---Sluzzelin talk 15:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is very much in line with the core Classical meanings: "high esteem or respect accorded to superior worth or rank, honor" "a particular mark of esteem, an honor." This is the honor Paul says one should pay to the persons to whom it is due. This is a good example of honor not meaning "title to respect, honorableness, honor; moral rectitude, integrity," which is the sense Pyro19 asked about (Latin honestas). Wareh 16:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! ---Sluzzelin talk 17:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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