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Revision as of 15:00, 20 October 2023 editNoonIcarus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers40,017 edits WP:SIZE← Previous edit Revision as of 04:37, 21 October 2023 edit undoWMrapids (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers7,017 edits January agreeement ??: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit →
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::::::You mean the mention that Haussman was a Guaidó apointee? I have already included the fact in a footnote, with the mention from the reference. I agree the whole paragraph and section needs reviewing, though. --] (]) 10:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC) ::::::You mean the mention that Haussman was a Guaidó apointee? I have already included the fact in a footnote, with the mention from the reference. I agree the whole paragraph and section needs reviewing, though. --] (]) 10:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Yes. I'm not sure if it's quite sufficient but also I don't want to have unnecessary disagreements. ] (]) 14:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC) :::::::Yes. I'm not sure if it's quite sufficient but also I don't want to have unnecessary disagreements. ] (]) 14:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::::{{u|JArthur1984}} I agree that this is not sufficient. The mention of Haussmann's status of being a Guaido official should be included and not hidden in a footnote. ] (]) 04:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
I had just started trimming and standardizing US/EU to U.S./E.U. when the release of sanctions edits started, so it is probably better I hold off until that works its way through. ] (]) 02:30, 20 October 2023 (UTC) I had just started trimming and standardizing US/EU to U.S./E.U. when the release of sanctions edits started, so it is probably better I hold off until that works its way through. ] (]) 02:30, 20 October 2023 (UTC)



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On 29 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from International sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis to Sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis. The result of the discussion was moved.
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis was copied or moved into List of individuals and entities sanctioned during the Venezuelan crisis with this edit on 2023-10-18. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Potential errors on the map

I noticed something strange about the map at the top of the article, the one that shows countries have introduced sanctions against Venezuela. For the most part it looks correct to me, but I noticed that parts of Northern Norway, Central Norway and all of Svalbard are marked as green. Did these particular regions introduce their own sanctions against Venezuela or is this just a mistake with the map? Not a Sandwich (talk) 14:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

The Lancet

Why is the discussion in The Lancet not included in the entry? The Lancet is one of the WP:RS specifically cited in WP:MEDRS. Nbauman (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Nbauman: Is this the Lancet article you are mentioning that I placed in this edit? WMrapids (talk) 07:33, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 29 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per WP:CONCISE. (closed by non-admin page mover) ❯❯❯ Raydann 09:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


International sanctions during the Venezuelan crisisSanctions during the Venezuelan crisis – None of these sanctions are international, on the contrary all sanctions against Venezuela are unilateral sanctions imposed by a few states and multinational organizations, including the US, the EU, Canada and probably a few other countries. Hence, the article name is misleading and should be moved to a more appropriate article name. The term "international sanctions" give a false impression that the sanctions are in fact international and sanctioned by the United Nations, when they are in fact not. Te og kaker (talk) 21:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talkcontribs) 15:14, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I do not get it. The complain here is that these international sanctions are not worldwide sanctions?--ReyHahn (talk) 21:39, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
The complaint is that these sanctions are not in fact international but unilateral sanctions (unilateral and international are two different things, learn the difference). This makes the article name misleading, as there are no international sanctions against Venezuela, only unilateral ones. --Te og kaker (talk) 21:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
If you want to reach consensus please take your time on explaining your terms. Do you know how that differs from other articles called "International sanctions during X"? (truly curious here--ReyHahn (talk) 22:17, 29 June 2023 (UTC))
I don't recommend focusing significantly on this (the policy Misplaced Pages:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS applies), but even Sanctions against North Korea is worded without the "international," and of course those sanctions even include UN Security Council-imposed sanctions. JArthur1984 (talk) 23:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Weak support: I think that some sanctions here can be considered international sanctions (per the Misplaced Pages article definition) however as there are also some unilateral sanctions I think the proposed article covers both.--ReyHahn (talk) 22:28, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now, I think I misread the international sanctions article. In the lead it seems to say that international sanctions can be issued by other countries and not necessarily by a collection of countries. There is no proof so far that "international sanctions" equals "UN sanctions". A good definition of "international sanctions" from a notable source is needed to solve this debate. As of now, it seems like a matter of taste and maybe a general RfC on the question could help us to standardize the title of many of the articles that have "sanctions" on their title.--ReyHahn (talk) 19:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
That being said, I am fine with the shorter title, so I am neutral. {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 08:11, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Note: WikiProject International relations has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talkcontribs) 15:14, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Support. "Sanctions" is much more WP:concise than "International sanctions". CLYDE /STUFF DONE (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 03:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Content moved without attribution and misinterpretation of size

Please see WP:CWW on the improper move of the list and the post at User talk:WMrapids re this being the third time at least that same has happened.

Further, with respect to size, removing a list does absolutely zero to the readable prose size, as lists are not calculated in readable prose.

WMrapids, PLEASE begin to use article talk pages to discuss your edits so as not to create unnecessary cleanup work for other editors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The size (300k) was simply too large. There are multiple issues here; the old article size results with choking, Misplaced Pages is not a directory and verifiability does not not guarantee inclusion. The split is justified, especially since the inclusion of all entities and individuals on the project is questionable. After the split, many notable sanctions are still included in the history of sanctions in prose throughout the article. WMrapids (talk) 18:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
In addition to the incorrectly attributed move of the individual list, other content was blanked. There are better ways to trim this article; pls engage talk before reverting again, and gain consensus about the best way to proceed towards trimming the article (it is now just above 10,000 words of readable prose, so bringing the size down is not unmanageable, and it can be done without leaving an unintelligible sub-article). This is an odd statement ("inclusion of all entities and individuals on the project is questionable") since the article could not be a featured list (a sample of Misplaced Pages's best work) if it was not complete. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
So you're going to ignore the choking issues that face readers and users? WMrapids (talk) 23:51, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm not "ignoring" anything; you made a messy move, didn't clean up after yourself, didn't seek consensus, blanked content, etc. so the mess has been reverted. Collaboratively reducing the size is the way I roll, and you well know that, as you saw a model of how to proceed collaboratively right here. I do not intend to continue to do all the cleanup that results from non-collaborative, non-consensual editing. Clean up the messes you left, including this, and then discuss with others the best ways to reduce size here (which aren't necessarily the way you did it). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Why would I need consensus for an initial edit? Must I ask you for permission for each edit on Venezuela-related topic? As I have already said, I made a mistake with my initial edits and have fixed them for the most part. WMrapids (talk) 03:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Of course you don't need anyone's permission to edit, but when editors make non-collaborative editing a habit and then leave the cleanup for others, they can expect to be reverted when patience is exhausted. Doing a correct content move takes a lot of work to get both ends right, you didn't do that, perhaps you didn't notice the hours it took to get the Silvercorp Agreement right, and asking others for help on talk is not a bad idea and gets the job done more quickly and with less agida. If you are willing to slow down, engage talk and edit collaboratively, I'll be happy to go back through this article and do some trimming; that is, since I wrote a lot of the content, I hopefully won't ruffle anyone's feathers by ditching some of it. (I already pulled some poorly sourced bits that were added during my break from Venezuelan topics.) But I am not interested in being reduced to secretary and mediator again on another topic. And I won't be home for two more days, and have exhausted my hotspot data limit, so patience. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: My main concern is the list; not that it exists but that it is very heavy on browsers for everyone (sure that can't be good on your tablet haha). If we could include the main, notable sanctions in the body and then move the rest of the listed information to list article, that seems reasonable. Again, no intention to "ruffle" anything, but it seemed necessary upon my encounter and I didn't want to bother anyone else with something that appeared clear at the time. Sorry that it's been a bother anyways... WMrapids (talk) 04:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
I have moved the list-- this time, I hope, correctly ... fixing the lead over there, and the hatnotes over here, and with proper edit summaries. I will slowly pick through the text to trim the readable prose size. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
By the way, it's not at all hard on my browser or iPad, and the KB of the article, at 250, was not even remotely large compared to some really problematic articles, but done anyway. And I do hope you can understand that when other editors have put a lot of effort into developing a well-sourced article, with a complex table, seeing this done to it, rendering it uncited and without a lead, is not going to generate warm fuzzies. Just something to keep in mind. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
And another reason to discuss before moving is to get the name right; ships and planes are not organizations, individual vessels were sanctioned, and that's why the original content used the word entity; now List of people and organizations sanctioned during the Venezuelan crisis needs a move <sigh>. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Apologies. Should be fixed. WMrapids (talk) 05:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
And for questions about similar lists, please see the consistent title use in List of people and organizations sanctioned in relation to human rights violations in Belarus and List of people and organizations sanctioned during the Russo-Ukrainian War.--WMrapids (talk) 18:04, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
All manner of garbage is to be found on Misplaced Pages; I suggest consulting WP:FL for better examples. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Gratuitous tagging

Many of these tags were gratuitous; some already had secondary sources, some didn't require secondary sources (attributed opinions), and a (very) few were valid. I've cleaned up those I could; there are still two big chunks of primary-sourced text which may be given UNDUE weight if secondary sources don't back them. Cleaning up size issues will be easier if sourcing is first clean. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Burrobert: Just wanted to inform you about the tags since it appears to be you edit. What were your concerns and did Sandy clear this up for you? WMrapids (talk) 04:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
If Burrobert plans on re-tagging anything, a justification here on talk would be nice; it was odd that some primary sources speaking for themselves as opinion were left, while others were tagged. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:SIZE

Hi @SandyGeorgia:. Since you were the one that provided a format to the list of sanctioned people and you're experienced in watching out for articles sizes, I thought about notifying you about the recent concerns, but I see that discussion has already started. Although my Prosesize gadget says that there are currently 69 kB of readable prose size, but I wanted to ask you what you thought about a split to List of people and organizations sanctioned during the Venezuelan crisis (sorry if you have already said it!), and I see this has already been done as well. Kind regards, NoonIcarus (talk) 10:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, NoonIcarus. Short version (see #Content moved without attribution and misinterpretation of size): the split did not need to happen per WP:SIZE, and should have been discussed first, but neither do I see any harm resulting in going ahead with it. If others disagree, we should discuss whether to re-merge the content back here. Longer version: there has been long long long-standing discussion at the talk page of WP:SIZE about how to apply the split recommendations now that most people have much faster connections. I, for example, right now have a spotty connection, but had no problem loading the article. The modern concerns about WP:TOOBIG, as stated on that page, do not apply to WIki Markup size, rather only to readable prose. For reasons beyond my comprehension, many editors either don't know what readable prose is, or don't know how to use the tools to calculate it, but for our purposes here, it's important to note that lists and tables are not counted in readable prose size, and the split did nothing, zero, to the readable prose size here. The objections to readable prose longer than 10,000 words have to do with difficulty in maintaining the content, and reader attention span. The readable prose of this article is as of today only slightly above 10,000 words, and my plan was to continue trimming some older overquoting, which was needed anyway. Because of POV concerns, I suspect we tend to overquote throughout Venezuelan content, and with hindsight, I see a lot that can be removed. So I'm working my way through it, and expect to be able to bring the readable prose to a manageable size, and think that work was needed anyway; but the long story is we did not have a serious size reason for the split, and if there are serious objections to it, we should discuss. If others view it as a POV fork, that's a problem: note that in the Silvercorp Agreement split, which was a legitimate TOOBIG readable prose issue, I specifically raised those questions before proceeding, which was not done here. If done correctly (it initially wasn't), it doesn't trouble me, but I'm open to persuasion. If others have objections to the split, they should bring them forward, but the work needed on trimming readable prose is an entirely separate matter; bringing the table back will not change the WP:TOOBIG readable prose size. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
PS, another thing I could do -- but will only do if others are concerned -- is ping in some stalwarts of the featured lists process, as they are well versed in how to best build list pages. I am generally unimpressed with the overpinging/canvassing that is occurring throughout Venezuela content, so will only seek that feedback if others concur it may be helpful or needed. Slow and steady wins the race. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Many thanks for the explanation. One of my points precisely is that the readable prose still did not warrant a split, but you also give a good explanation that I was unaware of. Please let me know if you need any help in this regard. Best wishes, --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
NoonIcarus in the trimming effort, I moved this to the sub-article as it is content not totally related to the sanctions, rather the broader agreement, and we have room for expansion there, while this article is TOOBIG. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:22, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: That's alright, thank you for the heads up. Would you like me to help with the trimming? --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

January agreeement ??

Separately, the amount of space/size given to the Weisbrot/Hausmann issue is way too much and I was planning to rewrite that entire section for a better thematic flow/organization (right now it's WP:PROSELINE) and to reduce that one section. I see someone attempting to entirely remove Hausmann, which I don't see any basis for, nor can I find mention of some January agreement; what and where was that agreement, and are there objections to trimming that whole UNDUE bit to be more in line with due weight? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:19, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

The overall issue is that Hausmann was a Guaidó appointed official, including when he published the study cited at length. In January 2023, a series of back-and-forth edits about how to address his concurrent political status resulted in a stable version of the article noting that he was the Guaidó appointed representative to the Inter-American Development Bank. That was deleted today as unsourced.
In my view, if Hausmann is to be used, the material absolutely must be qualified with Hausmann's political role. At the moment of my reply, the article contains the political role with a citation for it. This seems fine. I also think Hausmann could be removed entirely, but specifying his political role seems much less controversial. JArthur1984 (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
So there was no talk discussion that I need to read, then? I am traveling and iPad editing, and would like to better consolidate and trim that entire section when I am back to real computer (saturday or sunday). Regardless of Hausmann's appointment, he's among Venezuela's most respected economists, and shouldn't be ignored, but I hope to find a better way to resolve that disagreement and the entire messy section. Will taking this slower work for others, to avoid in the meantime edit warring? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:50, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
We are essentially back to the stable version, but now including a citation for his political appointment. This addresses the grounds supplied for the removal of the political appointment language today, so it ought to be fine pending a more holistic re-write of the section. JArthur1984 (talk) 15:57, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
I will look into that entire section then when back to a real computer ... it needs a major restructuring to get away from PROSELINE, a better thematic organization, and reducing the whole back-and-forth on Weisbrot/Hausmann. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Well, there went the stable version with citation.
I'll nonetheless refrain from editing on this point until you've had an opportunity to look more holistically at the section over the weekend. We would obviously benefit from a third perspective on the material. JArthur1984 (talk) 18:27, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
You mean the mention that Haussman was a Guaidó apointee? I have already included the fact in a footnote, with the mention from the reference. I agree the whole paragraph and section needs reviewing, though. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Yes. I'm not sure if it's quite sufficient but also I don't want to have unnecessary disagreements. JArthur1984 (talk) 14:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
JArthur1984 I agree that this is not sufficient. The mention of Haussmann's status of being a Guaido official should be included and not hidden in a footnote. WMrapids (talk) 04:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I had just started trimming and standardizing US/EU to U.S./E.U. when the release of sanctions edits started, so it is probably better I hold off until that works its way through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:30, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Blue color

Can anyone tell me why Carvajal is in blue color over at List of people and entities sanctioned during the Venezuelan crisis? Best I can tell, it's undefined, and it breaches MOS anyway by using only color to convey ... something. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems to have been introduced in this edit by Farolif . Probably a typo. Note that Alex Saab got blue too.--ReyHahn (talk) 16:41, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
It could also mean sanctioned people that have been arrested? Not sure. --NoonIcarus (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
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