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Revision as of 05:44, 22 January 2024 editAd Orientem (talk \| contribs)Administrators76,466 edits →Javier Milei's Speech: ReplyTag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 05:47, 22 January 2024 edit undoAd Orientem (talk \| contribs)Administrators76,466 edits →Javier Milei's Speech: ReplyTag: Reply Next edit →
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	:::@]: "I don't like it" isn't what I stated. I pointed out issues with this addition, and you just repeated what you previously stated without addressing any of my concerns. –] (]) 05:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)		:::@]: "I don't like it" isn't what I stated. I pointed out issues with this addition, and you just repeated what you previously stated without addressing any of my concerns. –] (]) 05:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
	::::@] Your concerns as far as I can tell are that you do not agree with his speech, You believe that his position would not pass muster with an academic body. And you think it is similar to remarks by Donald Trump. (A point on which I strongly disagree, but then I have listened to the entire speech.) You also refer to the speech as part of a catalog of criticism "by just anyone." Not many speeches by the President of the United States get this kind of coverage. It appears that you believe his speech consists of the four sentences quoted. I am guessing you have not heard the speech or ready any of the coverage. FTR I have. -] (]) 05:29, 22 January 2024 (UTC)		::::@] Your concerns as far as I can tell are that you do not agree with his speech, You believe that his position would not pass muster with an academic body. And you think it is similar to remarks by Donald Trump. (A point on which I strongly disagree, but then I have listened to the entire speech.) You also refer to the speech as part of a catalog of criticism "by just anyone." Not many speeches by the President of the United States get this kind of coverage. It appears that you believe his speech consists of the four sentences quoted. I am guessing you have not heard the speech or ready any of the coverage. FTR I have. -] (]) 05:29, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::::@] I think we are in different time zones. It is close to 1 in the morning here and unfortunately, I need to get some sleep. I will be happy to have a look at this later in the day when I have a few minutes and continue our discussion. Good night (or day). -] (]) 05:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:47, 22 January 2024

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Section sizes

Section size for Socialism (32 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	27,983	27,983
Etymology	13,425	13,425
History	3,401	11,761
Early 21st century	8,360	8,360
Social and political theory	5,422	27,539
Criticism of capitalism	6,981	6,981
Marxism	4,443	4,443
Role of the state	3,731	3,731
Utopian versus scientific	2,354	2,354
Reform versus revolution	4,608	4,608
Culture	7,093	7,093
Economics	12,138	37,368
Planned economy	4,834	4,834
Self-managed economy	9,318	9,318
State-directed economy	2,526	2,526
Market socialism	8,552	8,552
Politics	2,787	85,654
Anarchism	12,921	12,921
Democratic socialism and social democracy	13,254	13,254
Ethical and liberal socialism	3,556	3,556
Leninism and precedents	16,156	16,156
Libertarian socialism	13,982	13,982
Religious socialism	2,309	2,309
Social movements	19,233	19,233
Syndicalism	1,456	1,456
Public views	4,240	4,240
Criticism	8,613	8,613
See also	597	597
References	30	16,200
Bibliography	16,170	16,170
Further reading	8,127	8,127
External links	1,354	1,354
Total	249,954	249,954

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Large swaths of the 20th century section are about Communism, not Socialism

They're related enough to be worth mentioning, but devoting multiple entire paragraphs to Communism, with no sources that mention socialism at all, is WP:SYNTH. It also seems as though much of this was copy-pasted from Communism (where it belongs!) --Aquillion (talk) 23:06, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Yep, this copy-pasting across the two articles took place in June and July 2023. –Vipz (talk) 22:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Clear usage of slanted argumentation in supposed factual description

Under the section on planned economy it is written "State socialism is unfeasible in this view because information cannot be aggregated by a central body and effectively used to formulate a plan for an entire economy, because doing so would result in distorted or absent price signals" This is a clearly a subjective opinion of the writer which if anything should be in criticisms of socialism. Nowhere is it mentioned either that 21th century computing, AI and statistics can be used to potentially predict with a high degree of probability the consumption of a population and required production. Midflyer (talk) 17:18, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Also Socialism is more of an economical theory than a political ideology. The modern invention of categorising socialism under the political umbrella terms such as "left-wing" ideologies is a modern invention produced by mostly non academic slanted sources and as a product of modern right-leaning propaganda. The definition of Socialism is simply: 'workers controlling the means of production' which is a purely economical definition and not a political ideological one. whilst socialism obviously branches off and can have progressive social elements social similar to left-leaning ideologies, it is important to make the distinction as the economical mode of function should be the focus point of socialism. Midflyer (talk) 18:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Difference between Socialism and Communism

Reading the communist manifesto, their IS a distinction, and the terms weren't use interchangeably as the the page suggests.

Source:

"Thus, Socialism was, in 1847, a middle-class movement, Communism a working class movement. Socialism was, on the Continent at least, "respectable"; Communism was the very opposite. And as our notion, from the very beginning, was that "the emancipation of the working class must be the act of the working class itself," there could be no doubt as to which of the two names we must take. Moreover, we have, ever since, been far from repudiating it."

Page 8 preface https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Manifesto.pdf Frederick Engels January 30, 1888, London 16:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Request to add

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jonathan Deamer (talk) 13:37, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Too many links

MOS:SEAOFBLUE and MOS:OVERLINK toobigtokale (talk) 20:13, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Javier Milei's Speech

@Vipz This was not boiler plate "anti-communist propaganda" delivered by a nonentity. He is the president of Argentina, a well known economist, and his speech was delivered at the World Economic Forum in Davos. His speech, in its entirety, has gone viral on the internt and has been garnering widespread coverage in the press and media to the degree that it probably rings the notability bell in its own right. Google is your friend. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Virality of Milei's recent speech is temporary, and it certainly won't pass a WP:10YEARTEST. It is in its entirety boiler plate anti-communist rhetoric, everything from making people poorer, through having always failed, to 100 million deaths. There is no original criticism here that an academic body of people could come around and uphold it to support its notability. Nothing dissimilar to hundreds of remarks about the same topics made by Trump. And again, this article and this section is not a catalog of speeches that 'criticize' socialism. –Vipz (talk) 05:06, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree. The last thing this section needs is to be blown up with run-of-the-mill criticisms of socialism from reactionary politicians.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 05:40, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@C.J. Griffin Polemics and name calling do not lend themselves well to a sober discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Vipz WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a compelling argument. You are certainly free to disagree with his remarks. But the speech goes into considerable detail and has garnered massive coverage in the press and media. That coupled with who delivered it and where, and IMO it easily passes the customary standards for a mention in the article. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:15, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem: "I don't like it" isn't what I stated. I pointed out issues with this addition, and you just repeated what you previously stated without addressing any of my concerns. –Vipz (talk) 05:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Vipz Your concerns as far as I can tell are that you do not agree with his speech, You believe that his position would not pass muster with an academic body. And you think it is similar to remarks by Donald Trump. (A point on which I strongly disagree, but then I have listened to the entire speech.) You also refer to the speech as part of a catalog of criticism "by just anyone." Not many speeches by the President of the United States get this kind of coverage. It appears that you believe his speech consists of the four sentences quoted. I am guessing you have not heard the speech or ready any of the coverage. FTR I have. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:29, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Vipz I think we are in different time zones. It is close to 1 in the morning here and unfortunately, I need to get some sleep. I will be happy to have a look at this later in the day when I have a few minutes and continue our discussion. Good night (or day). -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

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