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Morgoth has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: January 15, 2023. (Reviewed version).

A fact from Morgoth appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 31 January 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that Tolkien's Morgoth has been seen as analogous to Satan? A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2023/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Morgoth.

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"Ainu" vs "Ainur"

An editor is seeking to use the rare term "Ainu" for a member of the "Ainur". The plural term is moderately well-understood by Tolkien readers; "Ainu" is a rarely-used singular, and however correct it might be, it just makes the article harder to read, which is undesirable. I suggest we leave it as it is, which is correct in British English, and more readable to boot. There certainly should not be repeated edit-warring attempts to insert "Ainu" against consensus. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello from that "an editor",

sure both terms are accurate if one get fit them in. And yes, the singular is not quite as well-known as the plural. So I take your point of better readability (a point that should apply in other articles as well) - a reasoning not clear from the edit history - but I wonder why you want to eliminate the penultimate occurences of that word but let the final one stand. Could you explain that? If that final one stands, then the reasoning "we shouldn't be using that obscure form" falls flat.

NB: "repeated edit-warring attempts" and "against consensus" is way overstating the matter. I made one change once - that's not edit warring. Nor can you claim consensus for either version. Str1977 05:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for discussing. On the technical matter, I'm really not sure that increasing the number of uses of a term like "Ainu" is moving the article in the right direction. We are writing for the general reader. In the "Ainulindale" section, I suppose the average person will put two and two together and connect "Ainu", "Ainur", and "Ainulindale". However, such a philological approach does not come easily to many people, and relying on that sort of Tolkienesque thinking is open to the charge of being overly technical. Of the three terms, "Ainu" is certainly the most obscure; we can avoid it (most of the time, at least) by writing "one of the Ainur", or to use a better-known term, and one that is actually more specific in Morgoth's case, "one of the Valar" – this has the advantage that it is actually used in The Lord of the Rings, which has a readership around 100 times as large as The Silmarillion.

The guiding principle must be readability and comprehensibility. That does not forbid us from using rare terms like "Ainu", but it does enjoin us to be careful with such things; and I'd say that in any article except Ainur (Middle-earth) itself, we should certainly not use it in the lead section, or without a wikilink or explanatory gloss. Whether the term should be used in the body at all is debatable; reading the article through again now, I don't find its repeated use too obtrusive; equally, I don't see a need to use it more often.

I'm sorry to mention this, but since you've raised the matter, I feel obliged to say that even one repeated re-insertion without discussion is tending towards edit-warring, as the policy in fact makes clear; there actually wasn't even an edit comment, and I'd remind you that the onus is on the person who wants to make a change to start the talk page discussion, i.e. the default is the status quo ante and discussion is required. So, I'm glad you are now joining the discussion. There is not a great distance between our positions here - the term is legitimate but obscure, and I think we can find a way to use it sparingly. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

No, we aren't far apart. I agree that "Ainu" is the most obscure of the three terms and I actually do not mind much whether it appears one time more or less. That readability and comprehensibility are guiding principles - next to accuracy, of course - has always been my view.

Since, as you say, readers can put two and two together, I also do not think that the occurence of the term "Ainu" in the spot of our contention, really hurts readability.

From my perspective I was not "increasing the number of uses" of the term but rather reverted a reduction of the term without proper justification.

I'm sorry too that you felt you need to mention this but this usage of the term "edit-war" serves nothing but to poison the working atmosphere (which, in the long run, would result in conditions like in the German Misplaced Pages, where any change to articles is instantly reverted with the stereotypical reasoning of "not an improvement" and further attempts at changes are declared "vandalism"). Also, it is not true that the status quo has any greater right to exist. WP rules do not require editors to discuss before making any changes. It requires us to discuss after changes have been reverted. Str1977 16:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

The idea is that once you've been reverted, just once, you discuss if you think there is a reason for the change. But we've aired our respective views thoroughly now. Let's move on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:02, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

In earlier versions ...

I repeatedly stumble over the passage (emphasis is mine):

In earlier versions', Melkor's first reign ended after the Elves, the eldest of the Children of Ilúvatar, awoke at the shores of Cuiviénen, and the Valar resolved to rescue them from his malice. The Valar waged devastating war on Melkor, and destroyed Utumno. Melkor was defeated by the Vala Tulkas, bound with a specially forged chain, Angainor, and brought to Valinor, where he was imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos for three ages.

The expression "In earlier versions" implies that in later versions this was told differently. But no such information follows. While the next paragraph starts with "According to later texts", this pagraph deals with the Dagor Dagorath, an entirely different event.

Can anyone provide information on how the Enemy's first reign ended in later versions? If not, should we not rather remove this qualification? Str1977 16:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Hard to see what purpose it serves. Let's do without it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:59, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 02:05, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment or view
• Article history

• ... that the fictional character Morgoth has been seen as analogous to Satan? Source: Carter, Lin (2011). Tolkien: A Look Behind The Lord Of The Rings. London, England: Hachette UK. ISBN 978-0-575-11666-5. p. pt 16.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Cedric Oglesby

Created by Chiswick Chap (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 21:45, 18 January 2023 (UTC).

• I reviewed this for WP:Good article status, so I'm not going to review it for DYK. That being said, I think the hook should mention Tolkien and include a link. I also don't think the proposed hook is all that interesting, but I'll leave that to the reviewer. TompaDompa (talk) 04:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
  • A well-written and comprehensive article. The Tolkien nerd in me cannot find anything missing, and enjoyed reading it. Recent GA nominated within the necessary time period. QPQ done. I agree that the hook should be complemented, e.g. '... that the fictional character Morgoth, the main antagonist in J. R. R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion, has been seen as analogous to Satan?'. This provides more context, and is likely to bring in more readers. Otherwise this is good to go. Constantine ✍ 17:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

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