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Requested move 20 May 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Kidnapping of Naama Levy be renamed and moved to Capture of Naama Levy. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Kidnapping of Naama Levy → Capture of Naama Levy – Naama Levy is not a civilian but rather an Israeli soldier. She was taken by militants from the Gaza Strip, making this an international incident and part of an act of war. It is more WP:CONSISTENT to use capture based on these examples: Capture of Saddam Hussein, Che Guevara#Capture, Manuel Noriega#Capture, Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed#Capture, interrogation, and torture, Capture of Manuel Briones etc. The article on Gilad Shalit says "was captured by Palestinian militants". The word "capture" is more WP:NPOV and doesn't imply a value judgement like "kidnapping" does. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Most of the examples you've given are of military leaders rather than regular troops. I think that the current name is more consistent with the other Israeli hostages, which are all Kidnapping or Killing of FOO. Mason (talk) 01:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. If we were to take nom's assertion that it should be "capture" because the incident was an act of war upon a military target, we would assume that the captive would be treated as a POW under International Human Rights Law, which we unfortunately know is not the case. In addition, WP:RS overwhelmingly refer to Levy as a "hostage" rather a POW, strengthening the case for kidnapping (or abduction). In this context "capture" is a POV term, rather than "kidnapped", which is the overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME in WP:RS. Finally, per Smasongarrison, "kidnapped" is the WP:Consistent here. Longhornsg (talk) 04:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you show that "kidnapped" and not "captured" is WP:COMMONNAME? I did not find that to be the case. Can you also explain what is POV about "capture"?VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The pages related to the other hostages in Category:Israel–Hamas war hostage crisis are named:

• Rescue of Ori Megidish
• Kidnapping of Hersh Goldberg-Polin
• Kidnapping of Naama Levy
• Kidnapping of Noa Argamani
• Kidnapping of the Bibas family
• Kidnapping of Yarden Roman-Gat
• Kidnapping of Mia Schem
• Killing of Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka
• Killing of Shani Louk

Mason (talk) 22:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Update: I found a page that describes a much more similar situation than Gilad Shalit: Abduction_and_killing_of_Nachshon_Wachsman. Here's the lead of the article.

The abduction and killing of Nachshon Wachsman was a 1994 incident in which Palestinian Hamas abducted Israeli soldier Nachshon Wachsman from the Bnei Atarot junction in central Israel, and held him hostage for six days. The incident ended in a failed Israeli rescue attempt, during which Wachsman, three of his captors and an Israeli officer were killed.

Note that the situation is described using language, like abduction and hostage, and not as prisoner of war.

Here were all the Israeli soldiers(plus a border police person) that I could dig up.

• Abduction and killing of Nachshon Wachsman (soldier)
• Abduction and killing of Nissim Toledano (border police)
• Killing of Avi Sasportas and Ilan Saadon (soldiers)
• Abduction and killing of Yaron Chen (soldiers)

So I don't think capture fits with this list either. I think that either Abduction or Kidnapping are consistent with wikipedia naming, not so much capture. Mason (talk) 22:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

These are incidents going back 30 years. And perhaps the wording there should be examined. In any case, policy is to follow RS, not be consistent with old, different incidents. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

My point was that there are other more cases/examples than just the one the nominator used. WP:Consistent is also policy.Mason (talk) 00:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

What kind of lack of balls coward are you to say that a 19 year old peace activist girl who held some low ranking ceremonial non-combatant position in the IDF is a soldier that was captured as part of war?

What a cowardly castrated eunuch you must be Kvwiki1234 (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Keep it WP:CIVIL,@Kvwiki1234. Name calling does not help your argument. Mason (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you strike your disgusting edit. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

She was a 19 year old GIRL you disgusting cowards. How dare this discussion even be had. More on my thoughts here.

Kvwiki1234 (talk) 00:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• There are not (yet) a lot of scholarly sources on Naama Levy, but their case is quite similar to Gilad Shalit: both are IDF soldiers who were taken from Israel into Gaza and held by Hamas. I found a survey of scholarly sources shows capture to be more commonly used than kidnapping, albeit not by much. However, "capture" is more WP:NPOV than kidnapping, which carries a moral implication.

VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Or the title of the page could be just changed to Naama Levy, like in the page for Gilad Shalit. --78.208.128.133 (talk) 19:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

She's only known for the one event, which typically means that the person doesn't get a biography. Mason (talk) 22:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Support This is a grown adult soldier of a belligerent military. Calling this a "kidnapping" is intelligence-insulting. JDiala (talk) 07:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support: This is a descriptive title, and the proposed wording is the correct way to describe a solder captured at a military base in an enemy operation. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Civilians and soldiers alike were dragged away into captivity as hostages, often raped and murdered in the process, not by a military organization but by a band of terrorists and their civilian supporters. No distinction was made between civilians and service people, except that a higher price is being extorted for the latter. "Kidnapping" is correct. "Capture" does not reflect what actually happened. Kidnapped, as in the similar articles, is a reflection of reality. Coretheapple (talk) 17:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  "Terrorists", as well you know, is a POV, not NPOV characterisation, just as "resistance fighters" would be POV, per MOS:TERRORIST. And yes, by a military organisation – regardless of its POV or NPOV characterisation. In targeted strikes, militant special forces raided military positions and captured soldiers. That component of events alone on that day – the taking of POWs for exchange with other POWs is a common thread throughout military history. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  They were taken as hostages. Hostages are kidnapped. POWs are captured. Coretheapple (talk) 21:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  It goes both ways. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Whatever RS say O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

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