Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:36, 25 July 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of genocides article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16Auto-archiving period: 3 months

This article is rated List-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Human rights High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Philosophy: Ethics Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Misplaced Pages.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated task forces: /  Ethics Crime and Criminal Biography High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Death High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Lists High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Discrimination High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

On 22 December 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of genocides by death toll to List of genocides. The result of the discussion was article moved.

To-do list for List of genocides: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2025-01-05 There are no active tasks for this page References

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14 Archive 15 Archive 16

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic: You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. Further information The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are: Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence. After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

Before writing a comment please read the comments below, and add yours in the most relevant section, or add a new section if nothing similar exists.

Comparison between some lists on wikipedia

I was curious, so I threw together this little comparison chart of what genocides are included in a few lists we have on wikipedia:

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that is very telling! Bondegezou (talk) 12:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. My feeling, especially after the change by @Cdjp1 to the definition of "genocide" used in this article, is that this list should be changed to a table with 1-line summaries of the genocides in the Genocides in history articles, so that the list can easily be sorted and searched. When there is an unsettled accusation of genocide (as there is for some ongoing or recent events) or a dispute in scholarship, or if some common definitions of genocide are met but not others, we can add a column or two to indicate that status. AndyBloch (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Long term, I hope to be able to unify the List of genocides, Genocides in history, and Genocide navbox, but this is a large undertaking, and as I have mentioned previously on this page, I do have a lot of IRL priorities so the unification effort is low on my to do list.

As a rough guide to steps, as I would follow,:

1. Any of the genocides listed in List of genocides should be added to Genocides in history
2. any citations for items in List of genocides should be added to the their relevant items in Genocides in history
3. items in Genocides in history should be checked over for any instances of citation needed and corrected (checking ideally through the journals Journal of Genocide Research, Genocide Studies and Prevention, Holocaust and Genocide Studies, and Genocide Studies International)
4. Once these have been completed I would move to adding entries into List of genocides for any items present in Genocides in history that are not already present in List of genocides.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Should the Dungan Revolt 1862-1877 be added?

the war saw a decline of an ethnic group in China. The population declined by 21 million from war related deaths and famine and displacement. TaipingRebellion1850 (talk) 17:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It can be added if there is good scholarship calling it a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 May 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Hello! I would appreciate it if someone would comment out (place <!-- preceding and --> following) the list references (references within named <ref> tags listed in the {{reflist}} template) named "Milton1992", "USHMM2", and "AxisYugo" to fix unused list-defined reference errors. Thank you! – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 21:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: I couldn't find the 'USHMM2' ref. Commented out the other 2. ''']''' (talk • contribs) 03:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! The USHMM2 ref is missing because it was removed between me posting the edit request and you acting on said edit request. Also within that time period, the two references you commented out had their use re added, so those refs should actually no longer be commented out. Sorry for the time waste... – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 12:54, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 June 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Hello! Could someone please make these edits to fix two cite errors? (This is a reversal of my previous edit request because changes were made to the page between the request and its execution that made it unnecessary.)
In § References:
Line 617:

Line 625:

Or revert this edit. Thank you!
— Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 14:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 01:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 June 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I request that all the South American Native tribes of South America and the Tribes of that came from Africa be included into the list of genocides. Everyone knows that the South American Native Tribes were wiped out by the Spaniards when Christopher Columbus came to occupy the land and kill the adults and Enslave the adolescents and children. We all know that when they ran out of Southern Native American people, they started aiming for the Africans, wiping out whole villages and tribes of people we will never hear about again. Killing them to grab their children, exposing them to disease or a voyage that they would never make to the new world with the conditions they had to endure. To say that the holocaust was the worst genocide in the world is to spread lies, when the genocide that happened during the slave trade to those who were enslaved in order to build North America and South America happened on a much larger scale than the holocaust. We are talking about billions of people who died and their deaths are being ignored and washed over just because their culture is darker skinned. The shame!! 2600:100A:A111:4C51:CDBC:D96:8247:F056 (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 01:36, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at List of genocides. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Change the "Proportion of group killed" part of the table to "Other victimization statistics" in order to encompass other type of genocide victimization in these events like displacement, rape, torture, injury, etcetera since it seems some of the boxes in that section seem to be doing that already despite the current name and could add other valuable information to the article. Vanisherman (talk) 18:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Add high end deaths for Gaza genocide from New survey

New survey gives a higher death toll for Gaza deaths https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext Vanisherman (talk) 03:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

It is a non peer-reviewed "correspondence" to The Lancet without doing any research whatsoever. Its "calculation" consists in a poorly based estimate about FUTURE (sic) deaths: "...many indirect deaths in the coming months and years". Its methodology: multiplication of Hamas' numbers by five, that's it. 46.57.106.124 (talk) 13:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of Gaza genocide

In the interest of avoiding further edit warring, I'm starting a section to discuss the Gaza genocide inclusion and the list inclusion criteria more generally.

I don't think we can verify many of the list entries as being the majority view in relevant scholarship. Usually we cite a couple sources that call the event a genocide. So, I support inclusion of any genocide described as such in a significant body of scholarship, with a disclaimer at the top of the list indicating that this list doesn't represent Misplaced Pages's viewpoint and a note of relevant disagreement with every disputed entry. (t · c) buidhe 19:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

In this case we should change the article name to present this change in criteria. Vegan416 (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

buidhe's suggestion is no different from the criteria that is currently detailed in the article lede, so a change of name is not necessary. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

we did that a few months ago—blindlynx 22:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

As per the discussion in April, it was agreed to change the criteria from the previous criteria where it was scholarship + "in line with the UN convention", to "significant scholarship" (this can be by prominence or by multitude), as most Genocide Scholars and related specialists use frameworks different to the UN convention. So in trying to apply the previous standard editors would have to make that determination which it was thought bordered to close to OR. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Buidhe's suggestion seems very reasonable to me: articles like this one should reflect significant body of scholarship. Of course we shouldn't require unanimity – there will always be sources close to or sympathethic to the perpetrators, while decisions by international tribunals unfortunately have also a political dimension and may or may not reflect the facts on the ground. Impartial scholarship appears the best way to go here. No disclaimer is necessary – there's no "Misplaced Pages point of view", and anyway every Misplaced Pages page already contains a link to Misplaced Pages:General disclaimer. — kashmīrī  02:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, keep it on here that is the way the consensus is going now, and you can see plenty of other massacres and events that are only considered as such by a few sourcesa as you say there. Ecpiandy (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

By including it, we're saying that it is a genocide. This is going beyond what we can reasonably do based on the current sourcing. For example, we exclude the Ukraine genocide. We need to wait until the ICJ ruling for both of these. BilledMammal (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's what we're saying necessarily. The standard I think, which is what it is written at the top of the list, is acceptance in some "significant scholarship". See for example the Holodomor: the majority scholarly position is probably that it is not a genocide, but we include it because there is legitimate scholarly debate. I think if we include the Holodomor we should include the Gaza genocide. Though there is also a reasonable argument to include neither. Endwise (talk) 01:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There are several items on the list that probably don't belong here, but given these events are happening now it's more important that we get this one right. BilledMammal (talk) 01:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of "Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contradiction"

This topic is also regarded as genocide and ethnic cleansing. Should be included in this list too. Crxyzen (talk) 00:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Please provide reliable sources that support inclusion—blindlynx 13:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Blindlynx Reliable sources are the page itself Crxyzen (talk) 00:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The article doesn't offer evidence that the events are commonly classified as genocide. — kashmīrī  11:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing these citations, please list them here—blindlynx 15:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The Gaza genocide is false as it does not follow the 10 stages of genocide. 1. Classification 2.Symbolization 3.Dehumanization 4.Organization 5.Polarization 6.Preparation 7.Extermination 8.Denial 9.Cover up The Gaza strip is a current warzone and using the logic being used to say Israel is on a genocide would mean that America during world war 2 geocide the Japanese and the Germans along with other countrys. Sirfartface (talk) 02:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — kashmīrī  11:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Chinese genocide

The Japanese crimes in China during the second sino Japanese wars are considered genocide no? It definitely should be included The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

We'd need good sources. They were civilian massacres, war crimes for sure, but has there been a genocidal intent? — kashmīrī  11:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I hope this source is good enough

some sources have called it a genocide, with focus on the nanking massacre and soon ching

https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlui/handle/1794/25558https://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm

The “three Alls” policy could also be used to argue that there was an established intent, especially with what happened on the ground The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria:, I'm working to unify the lists as per "Comparison between some lists on wikipedia". For actions in Japanese invasion of China, there are multiple specific aspects/instances which have scholarship describing them as genocide/genocidal, besides the Three Alls policy you identified, there is also the Nanjing Massacre.

From the relevant articles potential sources are:

• Three Alls
  • Felton, Mark (2015). "The Perfect Storm: Japanese military brutality during World War Two". The Routledge History of Genocide. Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781315719054-10/perfect-storm-mark-felton (inactive 31 January 2024). ISBN 9781315719054. Retrieved 24 July 2022.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: DOI inactive as of January 2024 (link) (Though I'm not to happy having a Felton source, I'll dig to see if I can find more to add to the main article)
• Nanjing
  • Campbell, Bradley (June 2009). "Genocide as social control". Sociological Theory. 27 (2): 154. doi:10.1111/j.1467-9558.2009.01341.x. JSTOR 40376129. S2CID 143902886. Also, genocide may occur in the aftermath of warfare when mass killings continue after the outcome of a battle or a war has been decided. For instance, after the Chinese city of Nanking was occupied by the Japanese in December 1937, Japanese soldiers massacred over 250,000 residents of the city.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

In this case it definitely should be included, the sources are good enough The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at List of genocides. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Please make the following change to the article:

AndyBloch (talk) 13:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• I disagree with this edit. It's not correct that genocide is just killing large numbers of people. (t · c) buidhe 03:46, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a question of what is a correct definition of genocide. These columns in the table are titled Estimated killings and Proportion of group killed, and the information in those columns should only include that information. The Yazidi Genocide Proportion of group killed cell should be changed too. AndyBloch (talk) 09:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Left guide (talk) 05:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I am going to change answered= back to no, because (1) you are asking me to do something that is impossible for me to do under the rules adopted last year for ECP pages, and (2) this seems to me to be a simple change that is primarily removing content that does not belong in the the column. If I'm wrong, then EC editors should start a discussion. AndyBloch (talk) 00:55, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

AndyBloch (talk) 00:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at List of genocides. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Please make the following change to the article:

AndyBloch (talk) 13:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• I disagree with this edit. It's not correct that genocide is just killing large numbers of people. (t · c) buidhe 03:46, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a question of what is the correct definition of genocide. These columns in the table are titled Estimated killings and Proportion of group killed, and those columns should only include that information. The Yazidi Genocide Proportion of group killed cell should be changed too. AndyBloch (talk) 09:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Left guide (talk) 05:27, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I am going to change answered back to no, because (1) you are asking me to do something that is impossible for me to do under the rules adopted last year for ECP pages, and (2) this seems to me to be a simple change that is primarily removing content that does not belong in the the column. If I'm wrong, then EC editors should start a discussion. AndyBloch (talk) 00:55, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Source reliability

I've opened a discussion at RSN on the reliability of the source "Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential", which cited in this article: Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

RFC - Inclusion of Gaza genocide

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: History and geography Politics, government, and law Society, sports, and culture When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Should Gaza genocide be included in this list? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Don't include unless the title is changed to "alleged genocides" or similar. In my view, inclusion under the current title amounts to a statement in wikivoice that a genocide is occurring. Regardless of what the majority view is, we should avoid such statements in cases where there's significant (non-fringe) controversy. I know there have been attempts to qualify such implied statements with prose like "recognized in significant scholarship", but that doesn't fully address the issue, just as false advertising can't be remedied by adding fine print. The non-neutral (implied) statement is still there. — xDanielx /_C\ 22:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Include there are a lot of reliable sources calling it genocide or saying in so many words that Israel is engaging in genocidal actions. Most of the sources that disagree with that label are either simply unreliable or directly tied to Israel and its backers. If this situation was applied to an enemy of the US, like China or Russia, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Dronebogus (talk) 02:38, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  If this situation was applied to an enemy of the US, like China or Russia, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

  That's not true. For example, Persecution of Uyghurs in China and Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War are not included in the list. BilledMammal (talk) 04:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think there is sufficient sourcing to call China’s actions against the Uyghurs genocide of some description, at least. Dronebogus (talk) 04:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

  You may think, but editors' consensus was different. — kashmīrī  22:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• Don't include, per xDanielx. Sourcing is not sufficient yet to put it in Wikivoice per the recent RM - and generally, we should wait to do so until after the ICJ has ruled, at which point we can either make it clear that the allegations were true or that they were false. BilledMammal (talk) 04:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't include per XDanielx. Right now the status of a genocide is disputed, and really entries to this article should only be made when it's clearer. — Czello 09:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't include. This article "only considers acts which are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides", and this case is obviously an extremely controversial topic right now, the allegations could be false as well. We should wait and see how things develop. HaOfa (talk) 15:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

  Based on that criteria, then Gaza should be included, as in the currently published scholarship, it is overwhelmingly described as a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

  No, it's not. For example, the Economist: "Charging Israel with genocide makes a mockery of the ICJ... it diverts attention from the real humanitarian crisis in Gaza". https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/01/18/charging-israel-with-genocide-makes-a-mockery-of-the-icj HaOfa (talk) 11:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure I follow, this isn't a scholarly article—blindlynx 11:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  @האופה the Economist is not a scholarly publication, try again. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  Serious publications and scholars need time to analyze the evidence and provide their verdicts. Those who have already drawn conclusions while the war is still ongoing, despite many leading outlets and world leaders directly stating this is a fabrication, should be questioned. Claims of genocide have often been made during Israeli operations in Gaza all over the past decade by activists, so there are lots of good reason to doubt their credibility. HaOfa (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Include. Historical events are always subject to debate, and violent events are routinely challenged and contested, especially by the minoroty aligned with or sympathetic to the presumed perpetrator(s). However, this page is not titled List of unchallenged genocides (it would probably be blank in such an instance). Where the majority of reliable sources agree, or where there's evidence of a very high quality (e.g., the UN or multiple subject experts), then it would be a violation of NPOV to let minority opinions dictate Misplaced Pages content. This is precisely the situation with Gaza genocide. — kashmīrī  22:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
• Include: this is not a list of officially UN-recognised genocides or anything according to that metric, henceforth the inclusion of so many events in the article including Yazidi, Osage Indian murders, Rohingya, Genocide of Acholi and Lango people, Guatemala etc I could go on. The article is literally called Gaza genocide too. It is a list of genocide or genocidal-like massacres that are recognised as such by vast sways of scholars and non-governmental organisations etc. - the only reason for not including it is due to personal bias or else we need to have a discussion about the entire page. Additionally as per Kashmiri. Ecpiandy (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't include, per xDanielx. The allegations of genocide in Gaza are obviously contested (according to many they are totally made up), and lack consensus. Adding such a controversial claim would violate our neutrality guidelines. O.maximov (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Read the first line of the article "This list of genocides includes estimates of all deaths which were directly or indirectly caused by genocides that are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides; overwhelming scholarship recognises this as genocide. We articulated this point well when discussing the ultimately successful name change to Gaza genocide. Ecpiandy (talk) 00:08, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

This has been going back and forth for a while, so let's go ahead and continue with the WP:DR steps. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

• List-Class Human rights articles
• High-importance Human rights articles
• WikiProject Human rights articles
• List-Class Philosophy articles
• Low-importance Philosophy articles
• List-Class ethics articles
• Low-importance ethics articles
• Ethics task force articles
• List-Class Crime-related articles
• High-importance Crime-related articles
• WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
• List-Class Death articles
• High-importance Death articles
• List-Class List articles
• High-importance List articles
• WikiProject Lists articles
• List-Class Discrimination articles
• High-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists
• Misplaced Pages extended-confirmed-protected edit requests
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment