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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Lima Bean Farmer

Johnrpenner

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Johnrpenner

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Johnrpenner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 21 August 2024—violates WP:PSCI by immunizing Anthroposophy from falsification through performing WP:OR (seeks to reject the label of pseudoscience through attempting to make it look like a category mistake—but not according to any WP:RS)
2. a lot of previous edits at the same article, 21 August 2024, see e.g. , having the edit summary cutting like a knife between physics and metaphysics

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 2 May 2024 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• Misplaced Pages is a collaborative environment—up to a point. We don't seek to "collaborate" with those who breach our WP:RULES with impunity. More to the point: Johnrpenner is violating WP:RULES such as WP:PSCI and WP:OR. If he thinks I'm wrong, he should WP:CITE mainstream WP:RS to that extent. Merely giving us his own opinion won't do. Again: his assertion that the label of pseudoscience is a category mistake, is solely based upon his own opinion. He did not WP:CITE anything to that extent. Even if his POV were the unvarnished truth, he still does not have WP:RS to that extent.
• @Theleekycauldron: Until May 2024, I had no idea that Penner is a Misplaced Pages editor. In respect to what you say: I would accept a restriction of 1RR and a limit of 500 words per topic. Also, you have to consider that these Anthroposophists overtly stated they want me banned from Anthroposophy, so, while they knew they stand no chance in respect to their own edits, they were merely flamebaiting. Anthroposophists are generally speaking highly educated people, so if they behave as too dumb for their credentials, it is a token they are merely acting a show. Playing dumb and employing vicious libel (flamebait) is justified, according to them, since they are defending the public image of Anthroposophy. I mean: for a university-educated Lead Technical Writer it would be easy-peasy to understand they're breaching website policy. And if I lambasted them for failing to do so, my criticism was genuine and to the point. What do they stand to lose, here at Misplaced Pages? A bunch of disposable accounts. Since both Johnrpenner and the previous Anthroposophist at WP:AE are extremely fond of performing WP:OR—I don't think that's just a coincidence. When multiple accounts misunderstand Misplaced Pages in the same way, we may suspect they're WP:MEAT.
• @Ealdgyth: It was not intended as mockery. I don't think he is unintelligent, and if he appears as unintelligent, that's for flamebaiting purposes (just to make me angry).
• Full disclosure: there was an off-wiki hounding campaign against me, see , , and Talk:Anthroposophy#Evidence—which I now came to see as flamebaiting. Its objectives are overtly stated: recruit other editors against me and get me banned from Misplaced Pages. So, I see my opponents at these articles as an organized campaign, starting with October 2023, or even earlier. The only damage I did to Misplaced Pages is extensively bickering about being hounded. It is rather unusual for Misplaced Pages that a cult organizes off-wiki to take action against a specific editor.
• If I get banned from Anthroposophy, the "Fortress Steiner" (here) will regain its upper hand. Anti-fringe editors will be reluctant to intervene, since they lack a deep understanding of the topic. So I will have to get unbanned as the only person able to restore order. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• 21 August 2024

Discussion concerning Johnrpenner

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Johnrpenner

after making additions to the 'Anthroposophy' article — user tgeorgescu deleted / reverted my edits, and so i took it on to the talk page, asking him: instead of just deleting a whole bunch of stuff, why not engage in something more constructive? he did not engage in a friendly fashion, and quickly shut me down, and launched this Arbitration request against me.

if i were writing an article on the phenomenolgy of colour — i would expect to see criticism and debate — but i would also expect to see some effort in improving the article — doing what wikipedia does — helping provide some sense of the topic, which covers a neutral and informed point of view.

user tgeorgescu has expended considerable effort solely directed towards attacking and finding sources discrediting Anthroposophy (hundreds upon hundreds of edits.. almost as if it were some sort of personal vendetta). if one sees only efforts directed at this — then i might also question how neutral things are — when i dont see as much effort towards contributing anything that might help provide insight on the given topic.

tgeorgescu claims category error — and my claim is that anthroposophy is no more scientific than the subject of philosophy. in my edits — i did not dispute or remove his claims, and took care to preserve his references/links and to make it clear that anthroposophy is not scientific.

i believe i was following the wiki principle as stated in WP:RNPOV — as follows:

WP:RNPOV § Neutrality: In the case of beliefs and practices, Misplaced Pages content should not only encompass what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices but also account for how such beliefs and practices developed. Misplaced Pages articles on history and religion draw from religion's sacred texts as primary sources and modern archaeological, historical, and scientific works as secondary and tertiary sources.

in short — this issue could have been more constructively solved with some friendly edits aimed at improving the article, and making a subject more understandable — for example:

i) what are the epistemogical differences which distinguish anthroposophy from critical idealism?

ii) from whom did steiner get the idea — the article mentioned 'German Idealism', but neglected to mention Goethe.

iii) the article talks about 'perception of the spiritual world' — but it fails to mention the key role Anthroposophists place on Intuition in this regard.

these would all be useful things to know if i was a reader and unfamiliar with the subject.

instead, tgeorgescu has undertaken to report me to arbitration — i find it disingenous to spend such an inordinate amount of time logging in such an amount of effort cataloguing all criticisms against Anthroposophy — without making any efforts towards providing the reader with a better comprehension of what is being criticized — the criticisms and critics tgeorgescu has referenced only makes a case for condemning Anthroposophists — and deleting or reverting edits which disagree with him — and ultimately weaponizing the wiki process — which i find is generally quite fair, and i expect someone might be able to follow up and arbitrate his disproportionate critical activity, and attacks against users like myself which are trying to make honest contributions (as i have helped improve numerous other wiki articles, and believe in the wiki process).

i have no complaint against a good critical review of contributions to wikipedia - good editors, good referencing, and the good will to work together instead of shutting people down is what makes wikipedia great and useful. please, lets work together, and find a way to make better articles. peace out. Johnrpenner (talk) 03:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Statement by fiveby

tgeorgescu could use some help at Talk:Anthroposophy in trying to nip problems in the bud before they escalate. See this this FTN thread from November of last year (maybe just read Hob Gadling's comment at the end of the collapsed "Extended content") All that effort expended when it turns out an editor was just using phony citations for content. When he raises issues at FTN i at least often feel behind the curve with an unfamiliar topic, and tgeorgescu usually seems to be going it alone on the talk page. I don't know if AE can do anything to help and maybe the answer here is just to remember to watchlist the articles and pay more attention. fiveby(zero) 06:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Statement by KoA

I want to echo's fiveby's sentiment above, and I would caution admins to be mindful to check out what they link at FTN. I’ve been noticing that problem at the noticeboards and tgeorgescu’s frustration too often handling a lot of fringe stuff and now apparently becoming a target off-wiki for it.

theleekycauldron, I am concerned about your comments here at this time in the AE and making them in the uninvolved admin section. I reviewed the talk page, and the only recent dispute was from this interaction at Talk:Anthroposophy#Violation_of_WP:PSCI. However, I couldn't verify any of your claims made without diffs there such as bludgeoning talk pages, going on long-winded "own the crazies" rants, insulting other editors, so that was a serious red flag when I instead saw tgeorgescu making very short replies and largely behaving properly at the time. The only little knock against them was that they should have stopped interacting before the I have already reported you at WP:AE. . . comment, but even those comments are relatively chill compared to your characterization. If there are recent diffs prior to when you commented, those are absolutely needed, because when I see a mismatch like that in depiction, that looks a lot more like battleground pursuit on your part that we'd typically see of involved editors behaving poorly. If anything, it looks like tgeorgescu's talk page use had actually vastly improved and it wasn't until you started needling tgeorgescu with your initial comment that they got off the rails here at AE. At least as I've tried to review this report with an even hand, you created more heat than light.

However tgeorgescu, I do have some advice after seeing your comments on talk pages over the years. Remember to center yourself on the ideas of WP:NOTFORUM/WP:FOC more often on article talk pages. I have seen you give in-depth answers at times when not needed or just posting on the talk page not clearly tied to any edit. Sometimes I've seen you come back for an "and another thing" comment when the conversation was just likely to die. I saw that before your warning theleekycauldron mentions, and it looks like you've been vastly improving in what I've reviewed so far. That said, be careful about personalizing comments about editors or how comments might appear to be a battleground mentality. That too creates more heat than light like I just cautioned theleekycauldron. When I look at the AE after their comment, you brought up that you felt like you were being trolled by Johnrpenner at the article with comments like so if they behave as too dumb for their credentials. Even if you feel like that, don't take the WP:BAIT. You honestly were fine from what I can see initially until your interactions with theleekycauldron here. It wasn't until that moment I was seeing AE comments with a bit too much bite towards editors, so it didn't appear anything WP:PREVENTATIVE was needed on your part to that point. KoA (talk) 15:58, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish, I'm right at the word limit, so I'll leave it at this just to say the issue I saw was that when you look at recent edits before this AE (most stuff mentioned here is pretty stale or minor), it really did look like tgeorgescu was improving significantly in the last few months (especially the very last talk section at the page before AE) compared to the period of their warning or when I even told them to chill out on the treatises awhile back. Whatever threads the needle between "you've made some good improvements in mainspace/talk" and "you've still got scaling back to do" will be helpful here for a grounded approach. KoA (talk) 20:23, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Johnrpenner

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Looks like tgeorgescu is exhibiting the exact same behavior that landed them a logged warning for battleground behavior and incivility nine months ago. that's a shame, because they seem to solidly be in the right that Johnrpenner is only here to push a pseudoscientific POV. If Tgeorgescu doesn't agree to stop bludgeoning talk pages, going on long-winded "own the crazies" rants, insulting other editors, and generally behaving as if yelling at people about how wrong and stupid they are is the best way to make them go away, the pseudoscience topic area will lose a valuable editor. perhaps a topic ban from Anthroposophy is in order, since the last row took place there as well. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  Support topic banning Johnrpenner from Anthroposophy, broadly construed. Also support restricting tgeorgescu within ARBPS, broadly construed, such that they may not write more than 500 words across discussions related to this topic area (not 500 words per thread) in a calendar month; and placing them under 1RR. They are reminded to seek out admins before engaging in disruptive behavior in their attempts to combat disruptive behavior. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:52, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  @KoA: I'm taking my cues from this thread. Some of it was from before Johnrpenner was a wikipedian (although this isn't), but I don't think it'd be ridiculous to say that it's relevant to the onwiki portion of this spat. I'm also considering the sum of other threads they've started since the SamwiseGSix AE thread. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

• Tgeorgescu - first, "A more nuanced view of how I see Anthroposophy:" has no bearing on how you should be editing. Your personal views are no more useful than the personal views of Johnrpenner or any other editors. In fact, you state later in this very filing that "Merely giving us his own opinion won't do" so putting your views here isn't helpful to the admins looking into your filing. Further, with "Malcontents should not blame me for what full professors write" you are continuing to describe other editors (I think? It's hard to tell if you're referring to other editors or merely folks who subscribe to Anthroposophy, but either way it's a sign of battleground behavior) as "malcontents". You were warned for this last November. Here's another unhelpful comment "I mean: for a university-educated Lead Technical Writer it would be easy-peasy to understand they're breaching website policy." ... you're clearly mocking the editor who you filed this against. Really, this battleground approach needs to stop.
• Okay, so to the edit that is given as the basis for this filing: this edit, I see a description of the subject sourced to a pile of what appear to be independent reliable sources (at a quick glance) that is being replaced with stuff sourced to Steiner's own works. Also, I see that "Though proponents claim to present their ideas in a manner that is verifiable by rational discourse and say that they seek precision and clarity comparable to that obtained by scientists investigating the physical world, many of these ideas have been termed pseudoscientific by experts in epistemology and debunkers of pseudoscience." this sentence (which is sourced to the pile of independent sources) is replaced with "Anthroposophy does not belong to the study of the physical sciences, any more than Plato's Metaphysics should be considered Physics — doing so would be pseudoscientific" while still sourcing it to the same pile of reliable sources. This is source mis-representation unless each of those sources actually supports this new text (I'll go on a limb here and say it likely doesn't). On the griping hand, though, Johnrpenner isn't exactly a prolific editor - his edit count is around 1700, but they are widely spread out and mostly appear to relate to Goethe. While they are not editing well, I'm not sure they've had a chance to learn that wikipedia isn't a philosphical debating place. They need to learn to edit well with others, but either a topic ban from the narrow topic of Anthroposophy or a warning about their editing there would probably be fine. Ealdgyth (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Topic ban for Johnrpenner sounds good. I don't necessarily disagree about a word limit for Tgeorgescu, but I'm not sure it's going to work or be easy to enforce. Call me agnostic on it. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
• A topic ban for Johnrpenner from Anthroposophy is reasonable, and some sort of anti-bludgeon/anti-thousands of words restriction on Tgeorgescu wouldn't be amiss either. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

  KoA, just as an example of a long-winded "own the crazies" rants see User:Tgeorgescu#My quarrel with anthroposophists, or Talk:Anthroposophy#Category. I'd be interested in scaling back that type of engagement with the topic. I don't know if a word limit per month or discussion would be helpful, but even some advice or a warning might help. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

  So the topic ban has consensus. How do we want to move forward with Tgeorgescu? Another warning, or something with a bit more oomph? I like the gist of Theleekycauldron's idea, but I don't know how we'd ever track it.

  On a broader note, this issue comes up a lot where a milder sanction might be able to end disruptive behavior, but we end up warning a few times instead, and eventually we hit a tipping point and we end up with a more severe sanction. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Johnrpenner has been an editor since 2005 but is not yet experienced, having under 1800 edits. Their first edits (example from April 2005) concerned Rudolf Steiner, the founder of Anthroposophy. The current edits are not appropriate and I support a topic ban from articles related to Rudolf Steiner, or just Anthroposophy if others support that. I have spent time advising tgeorgescu that they should cut back on excessive commentary but in checking a couple of recent discussions, I could not see a problem. We need editors like tgeorgescu who are able and willing to keep articles based on reliable sources so my only suggestion in that area is that I would be happy to investigate if anyone wants to draw my attention to a future discussion where a participant might be overdoing it. I agree that ScottishFinnishRadish's links just above ("own the crazies") show excessive enthusiasm: tgeorgescu should stick to verifiable facts related to current editing proposals. Johnuniq (talk) 04:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
• It certainly seems that some action is needed here, so I'll try to take a look. For the moment, just commenting to avoid the bot carting this prematurely to the archives. Seraphimblade 01:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  It looks like the topic ban has pretty clear consensus, so as far as tgeorgescu goes out seems like we just need to decide on the level of reminder/warning, or discussion restriction we want to go with. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm rather torn on that. I don't generally like to give more than one warning, or it turns into "Stop that, I really really really mean it this time", but I sure don't love the idea of rewarding a harassment campaign either, and it seems there's at least pretty credible evidence that something like that is going on. Seraphimblade 20:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  The issue, as I see it, is that a single admin has much more blunt tools than AE as a whole. At AE we can tailor a word limit or other anti-bludgeoning measure, but a single admin can only block, topic ban, iban, or set a revert restriction. That seems overkill for this behavior. Perhaps we can form a consensus here that if the behavior continues after a warning any admin can institute an anti-bludgeoning sanction as an individual admin action? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  I am not up to speed at all on this report. But is there a reason not to just institute it now? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  The topic ban? I don't think there's a rush on that part, as they haven't edited in two weeks. No reason not to log it, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:04, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  Oh I thought you were proposing an anti-bludgeon sanction in lieu of the topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:09, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe an "anti-bludgeoning" sanction could be applied at page level, rather than to a specific editor? Having had a look at Talk:Anthroposophy, tgeorgescu is far from the only frequent poster there, so maybe some sort of "If after X amount of discussion, consensus has not been reached, engage further dispute resolution or drop it" sanction could be applied there in general? Seraphimblade 21:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think anyone else has dropped 3000 words to themselves, like Talk:Anthroposophy#Category. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  That's...impressive, indeed. I think we could find a sanction that could curb that type of thing; there's really nothing added to the discussion by a huge wall of text like that (and if it's a "note to self" type thing, that can always be kept in one's userspace instead). But I still don't think Tgeorgescu is the only problem there, either. Seraphimblade 23:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  I linked to their 3000 word "note to self" on their user page earlier in this discussion as well. I don't think they're really the core of the problem, but they need to moderate their response, and as they've already been warned we need either a warning with some teeth, or a tailored sanction. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:22, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I think we're largely in agreement at least in principle, and the devil's more in the details. How would you envision a "warning with teeth"? Seraphimblade 11:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I think with a rough consensus here that an individual administrator can institute an anti-bludgeoning measure on them if they continue then that would add, in this particular case, that tool to an administrator's toolbox. Then, rather than having to come back here, whatever admin saw it could just say, "you're limited to 1000 words a month on the topic of Anthroposophy," or "you're limited to three replies per week on the topic of Anthrosophy." That way it's not a warning that requires another trip to AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:19, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Seraphimblade 19:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

TenPoundHammer

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Toa Nidhiki05

Silvertide goldwaves

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Mountain of Eden

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

The Mountain of Eden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction being appealed

One week block from editing the article Mohammad Deif

Administrator imposing the sanction

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Diff of notification

Statement by The Mountain of Eden

I was accused of violating WP:1RR. I did not. I committed only one revert. On my talk page, I explained that an edit that Makeandtoss accused me of being a revert is just a copyedit since I did not undo any other editor's edits.
So far, ScottishFinnishRadish has refused to answer my repeated attempts to ask why I was blocked, both on my talk page, and their talk page. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

An univolved admin refused to unblock me on procedural grounds, and advised me to appeal here. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I can't really write "I won't do that again" if I didn't do it the first time. The first edit that alleged a revert was not a revert. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 13:28, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish:

• Date of restore death into infobox w/ the note that Hamas is disputing the death.: 21:46, 27 August 2024
• Date of Undid revision 1243089857 by Makeandtoss (talk) The references are already at the end of the sentence: 13:11, 30 August 2024

⇒ More than 24 hours.

• Date of edit for which you are alleging a partial revert: 14:30, 12 August 2024
  • That's 18 days and 36 edits later. I think that should be considered as established text.

The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish: the edit in question was not a removal of content. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish: Unattributed??? The attribution is at the end of the sentence: <ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/01/hamas-commander-mohammed-deif-killed/|title=Top Hamas commander Mohammed Deif killed in Israeli strikes, IDF says|author1=Louisa Loveluck|author2=Shira Rubinwork|newspaper=]|date=August 1, 2024|access-date=1 August 2024|archive-date=3 August 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240803052718/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/01/hamas-commander-mohammed-deif-killed/|url-status=live}}</ref> (emphasis added). The Mountain of Eden (talk) 16:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Barkeep49, ScottishFinnishRadish: I went back and looked at the allged first revert, and I believe it is absolutley unfair to call it a partial revert.

• The 14:30, 12 August 2024 edit: changed "is or was" to "is"
• On 03:58, 29 August 2024: a different editor changed "was" to "is or was"
• My alleged first revert on 12:36, 30 August 2024: I chaged from "is or was" to "was (or, according to Hamas, is)".

You have to compare to the most recent version, not a version from 36 edits and 18 days prior. I am disappointed that this is not an open and shut case that I did not violate 1RR. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:57, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Please do not procedurally close the appeal on the grounds that the block has expired. If appropriate, a 1 second block could be issued to add a statement to the block log saying that the previous block was successfully appealed after the block expired. Or, as I see the case currently standing, a 1 second block could be issued to say that an appeal of the previous block closed without a consensus, as I am not seeing the community affirming the sanctions imposed against me. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:20, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Negating the effect of an edit is a revert. There have been many long term edit wars over attribution, like the locus of this revert. The whole point of 1rr is to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring, and is a bright line. In this case the editor has already had an issue with 1rr and not recognizing a revert, and responding with hostility to the 1rr notification.

As for my responsiveness, I received around 40 alerts and notifications in the past 24 hours, and I have around 5400 pages on my watchlist. I don't see any ping from their talk page, just an unblock request that didn't generate a notification. The message on my talk page looks to be about 24 hours old.

Lastly, it would be nice to see one of these appeals say, "I won't do that again." — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottishFinnishRadish (talk • contribs) 13:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The first edit was a partial revert of this edit. That's about as clear a 1rr violation as you can have. As far as my remedying the 1RR violation, that is covered at WP:CTOP, Edits that breach an editor or page restriction may be reverted... An uninvolved administrator who enforces a restriction by reversion is performing an administrative action and does not thereby become involved for administrative purposes. With clear violations I sometimes make a revert while addressing the behavior.

In this situation we don't even have to get into the weeds of what negating a previous edit means, or that we have CTOP sanctions that refer to something that isn't defined in policy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

It was also a revert of this. Looking back just to the beginning of August this is a long running slow edit war. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

And lastly, restore death into infobox w/ the note that Hamas is disputing the death. is a clear demonstration that they were aware they were reverting an earlier removal. You don't restore something that wasn't removed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The Mountain of Eden, in my earlier 1RR warning I said, After some amount of time which is highly variable and seldom agreed on content becomes the status quo and removing it is a bold edit rather than a revert. If you're editing in a contentious topic it's safest to assume that any removal is a revert. Continuing a long term edit war is definitely going to fall on the revert side of the line. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:50, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Barkeep49, I don't see continuing a dispute they were aware of with a summary like Only Hamas would use the present tense of the verb while leaving the IDF/Israel claim unattributed as seeking consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Sean.hoyland

No one is going to like this idea because it's premised on the notion that certain events, like a block, should trigger a checkuser in PIA. An offer. If they pass a checkuser they can be unblocked. I'm curious whether the user would accept this kind of deal. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, since the question was raised, the Lehi Street bombing socks are probably not The Mountain (Icewhiz). But, as far as I can tell from a technical data (that does not qualify as evidence at SPI), The Mountain could be a sock of User:Plot Spoiler. This result is (surprisingly for me) consistent with the fact that they registered their account at 2024-04-30T21:39:22, less than an hour after Plot Spoiler's last sock, User:Loksmythe, was blocked at 2024-04-30T20:45:08...unless it is all a coincidence, which is absolutely possible. I am not going to file an SPI (mainly because a) the evidence I have is not evidence at SPI and b) blocked accounts can simply create a new account if they haven't already done so and rapidly gain EC thanks to the many tools Misplaced Pages provides for new users to get them started). Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Selfstudier

Reported editor is not paying attention to their block anyway, see Lehi Street bombing (article created by sock on 24 August and substantially edited by edited by another on 2 September). Selfstudier (talk) 22:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Apologies, I got as far as "you have been blocked from editing Misplaced Pages for a period of 1 week" and assumed it was a full block. Selfstudier (talk) 22:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hum, a source title does not constitute inline attribution in the way I understand that, reported editor likes to wikilawyer stuff, I think.Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Mountain of Eden

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Aquillion

This was clearly not a revert, not unless we're going to classify every single edit as a revert (which would make editing in 1RR areas untenable). The effect of this edit was to add a statement. Adding attribution elaborates on that statement; it does not "undo" it. That sort of addition is not a revert unless comparable attribution had previously been present and had been removed, which was not the case here.

I'm also a bit puzzled by the fact that the blocking admin then immediately restored the previous revision afterwards; maybe I've just missed it, or perhaps practice has changed, but AFAIK that has never been part of the remedy for 1RR/3RR violations. The 3RR is about conduct and not article content; therefore, the remedy consists of a block or some other preventative measure but does not normally involve undoing the offending revert as an administrative action unless BLP violations or some similarly compelling situation requires it. Actual administrative action to change article content is rare and reserved for situations like WP:BLP where the issue is the content itself and not editor conduct; the administrator guidance for edit warring talks solely about blocks and the like, not about throwing a final revert onto the pile to "fix" things.

Both of these things - the 3RR generally not covering genuinely new additions that might "water down" the text except in the most egregious cases, and revisions to article content not being part of the remedy - are IMHO important because the 3RR sits on a delicate balance; we need a red line to prevent revert-wars, but we also want to avoid situations where the red line could be weaponized to force the article into a particular state, which could lead to WP:STONEWALLing and paradoxically encourage revert-wars by rewarding the first mover. This is even more true for the 1RR; the 3RR is somewhat safe because pushing things to the line is itself misconduct, but the 1RR requires so little that an even slightly intransigent editor raising totally reasonable objections and making entirely reasonable reverts could bring editing on a low-traffic article to a standstill if it was interpreted too broadly. --Aquillion (talk) 03:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by The Mountain of Eden

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Sometimes I think that the ambiguity over what constitutes a revert or not for purposes of 1RR is just hopeless. I can readily understand why The Mountain of Eden perceives that the first edit listed did not constitute a revert, but I also understand why the party who originally complained thought it was. I'll allow some time for statements, especially from the blocking admin, before commenting further. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

  I generally agree with this. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

  First off, in response to ScottishFinnishRadish's comments, those who participate regularly on AE appreciate his efforts in this area and have no concerns about his level of responsiveness. With regard to the substance of the appeal, however, after further review I am unable to agree that the first disputed edit constituted a revert. The situation appears similar to this hypothetical: Editor A edits an article to say X is true, Editor B deletes that statement, and Editor A then inserts Jones says X is true. Editor A has reinserted the concept of X, but as a much more qualified assertion that might, depending on the circumstances, be acceptable as compromise language even to B, thereby resolving rather than perpetuating the editing disagreement. I do not believe this would constitute a revert for 1RR purposes, and in any event it is not so clearly an improper revert as to warrant a block. Therefore, subject to other admins' further input, I am inclined to accept the appeal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think that's what happened here? And if it is I'm reading the article history wrong. SFR can you clarify what the diffs that constituted the 1RR were for you? Thanks Barkeep49 (talk) 19:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49: From the discussion on User talk:The Mountain of Eden, I believe this is the diff whose status as a revert is disputed. There is no dispute that there was a revert (or another revert) later that day. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks NYB and SFR. I think The Mountain of Eden has violated 1RR. This is mitigated by the fact that they attempted to find consensus through differing wording combinations and by participating usefully in a talk page discussion about it (a discussion which was mainly a bunch of IPs acting unhelpfully and in violation of ECR in the topic area). On the other side of the ledger is that Mountain still doesn't seem to realize that there was any violation which doesn't inspire confidence for the future. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  I still am not convinced that restoring part of a prior edit is always a revert, nor that the use of the word "restore" is an admission that it is. The example I gave here the last time this issue came up is this: Editor A edits a 1RR article by adding X, Y, and Z, Editor B removes that with the edit summary Z isn't true, and then Editor A posts X and Y with the edit summary restoring X and Y which no one disagrees with and omitting Z. That would be a sensible attempt to seek consensus, not edit-warring. The actual edit history here is more complicated than my examples, as ScottishFinnishRadish correctly observes, but I ready understand why The Mountain of Edit does not perceive they violated the 1RR. That being said, if no other admins here agree with me, then a consensus to modify the sanction does not exist. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

  At least for now it's just me and you. I am curious what a hypothetical third admin says as I see the consensus seeking element at play here that seems important to you, while also seeing the broader context that led to SFR's sanction. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Do I love that edit summary? No. However, I stand by my statement: they attempted to find consensus through differing wording combinations which in a non-1RR topic area would certainly be enough for me but even here strikes me as the good faith (perhaps naively so) interpretation of their actions. However, we are in a 1RR topic area so it all gets trickier. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• @Selfstudier: I'm confused. The Mountain of Eden is only blocked from a single page. Are you suggesting that Lehi Street bombing socks are also The Mountain (Icewhiz)? Barkeep49 (talk) 22:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish and Barkeep49: I too would be interested in what other admins think about the issue we disagree on, but while we've been waiting for more input, the page-block expired by time several days ago. Should we continue to leave this thread open, or close it as unsuccessful (over my dissent) for lack of consensus? Meanwhile, if any other admins would like to weigh in, now is the time. Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Responding to NYB's request for more input. I agree with NYB in principle that an edit that partially negates a previous edit isn't necessarily a revert by definition, but in this case, I think the disputed edit is indeed a revert, because I cannot parse the language and come to the conclusion that the intent was anything other than to largely negate a previous edit. The effect is marginally mitigated by an attempt to find different wording, but the qualifier was also very clearly intended to minimize the weight of the claim. It could easily have been proposed on the talk page: why wasn't it? As such I would have declined this appeal, were it not moot. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks Vanamonde. Given this I think we can close this appeal. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Void if removed

Zatinya

IntrepidContributor

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning IntrepidContributor

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

IntrepidContributor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Sep 7 16:55 - first revert
2. Sep 7 17:41 - second revert
3. User talk:IntrepidContributor#1RR - declined to self-rv

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

24hr 3RR block on 10/15/22

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

alerted Aug 18

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think this account is almost certainly a sock. Compare their timecard/edit history with Wierzba (Wierzba xtools) and IsraPara2 (IsraPara2 xtools) (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Wierzba). IntrepidContributor, AFAICT, had never edited in ARBPIA in its first round of activity (7/22 - 2/23). The account was mostly inactive between 2/23 until August 17, 2024, when they started getting involved in ARBPIA for the first time. Aug 16, 2024, is when the AE against O.maximov closed with a warning (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive338#O.maximov). IntrepidContributor has only made 30 edits since Aug 17, almost all focused on fighting the "Gaza genocide" move. O.maximov was later blocked as a sock at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Icewhiz#27 August 2024. I could go file at SPI, and this account was on my list of SPIs-to-file, but it would save a bunch of paperwork if reviewing admin could just {{Checkuser needed}} here to see if these accounts are a technical match, which I expect they will be. If you want more behavioral evidence before requesting a CU, or if you want me to file a separate SPI, let me know. Thanks, Levivich (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I mainly edit the Russian and Ukrianian wikis... Special:CentralAuth/IntrepidContributor says 0 edits to ruwiki or ukwiki. Perhaps they edit there with another account? Levivich (talk) 18:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

So if I understand correctly, AE is not well-suited for multi-party disputes, but it looks at all parties? Levivich (talk) 06:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

SFR: it turns out we have multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing, or been part of opening such RMs Diffs/links for this incredible claim? Levivich (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Damn, SFR. That first RM was just about the disambiguator. It said "It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording." That's why the second RM was OK in that instance. Not comparable to this case. Your analysis is very similar to BM's in that you're overlooking massive differences. Can't believe this. Levivich (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

SFR, please re-ping those arbs and explain your earlier accusation was false in light of what I've written above. Levivich (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh no, SFR, your second example doesn't support your statement in multiple ways: it wasn't multiple editors, and anyway, in your second example, the first RM ended in "not moved" and explicitly suggested further discussion: "This close is without prejudice to opening a further discussion". You just made the same mistake twice, comparing RMs that explicitly said no prejudice to another RM. I went over this in detail on BM's talk page. You need to fix what you wrote, not double down on it. Levivich (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

FWIW I'm 100% going to appeal this to AN, TBANs or not. Reopening the RM was massively disruptive. I don't believe the community will decide that it was OK to launch that RM or that the right thing to do was to let it run. AE got this one wrong. Levivich (talk) 14:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, separate from asking at AN whether shutting down the RM was the right thing to do, I'm also probably going to ask ARCA to take another look at the whole "1RR doesn't apply" thing again. If that's the scope of 1RR, it at least needs to be documented somewhere, because right now every 1RR talk page notice says 1RR applies to "this article" which everyone will understand means the talk page too, and WP:1RR says it's the same as 3RR, which explicitly applies on all pages. (Also it doesn't make much sense to exempt talk pages anyway.) Levivich (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@BK: never closed, just deleted. I deleted it, then Self, then SN, then Self un-deleted it after this AE, and it's since run. Surely no one will touch it now (except an admin). I have no problem with "should have been been closed instead of just deleted," if that's the procedure I'll follow it, but I have a big problem with what happened here, that it's just been allows to run. We went from non-disruptive (me shutting it down) to disruptive (it running), IMO.

BTW could you please tell me: I suggested two masters above, and your answer about CU mentioned one of them. Is it also "unrelated" as to the other (o.max/"icewhiz")? Levivich (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Barkeep49, I will do so. Levivich (talk) 17:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee @Starship.paint, idk if this is the one you're referring to, but the May 3 RM that ended up at "Gaza genocide" had a move review that ended Aug 22. The new RM (that brought us here) was opened Sep 7, 16 days later. Levivich (talk) 15:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Special:Diff/1244541208

Discussion concerning IntrepidContributor

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by IntrepidContributor

As I mentioned to Levivich on my talk page, 1RR does not apply to talk pages and fixing TPO violations. The diffs provided show me reverting the improper removal of an editor's post on a talk page. Their entire complaint here seems to be more about their suspicion that I am a sock of another account. I mainly edit the Russian and Ukrianian wikis and I have never heard of those editors I am accused of being. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:44, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier, if you didn't like WikiFouf's RM, you could have voted against it instead of deleting it. Removing the proposal is a TPO violation and a third editor doing it doesn't make it right. There was an RfC and no moratorium was agreed on page name move requests , so you should not be obstructing an uninvolved editor from a good faith attempt. IntrepidContributor (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Barkeep49 there have been a number of editors who have objected to the page title since the last RM, and the MR that was closed a month after it. The RM discussion itself was very tight and should have been closed as no consensus, leaving the page name as Gaza genocide allegation or accusation. The MR brought up the fact that at 30 on 30, with three choices of names, the closer should have weighted it according to the similarity in two names Gaza genocide allegation or Gaza genocide accusation. But I don't think this is the right venue to arguing the case for the a new move request, and that should be left to the community. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Selfstudier

Regardless of the 1R problem, this is straightforwardly disruptive behavior. There was a well attended recently concluded RM that in addition went through MR and nothing has changed since. Rather than specifying anything new, the presented nomination is chock full of personal opinions such as I wholeheartedly believe that "Gaza genocide" is a premature title and does more harm than good, risking the erosion of public confidence in Misplaced Pages for a wide swath of the population and regurgitates everything that was already discussed in the recent RM. Yes there are editors that actively dislike the current title, that is not a sufficient reason to go through all this again.Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

A third editor has now reverted the RM proposal Selfstudier (talk) 19:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Ample opportunity to engage was given to reported editor here and here, instead they chose to edit war and only then the matter was raised here, all within a couple hours, no-one having responded to the RM in the interim. This seems to me, in all the circumstances, to be a proper approach, BM attempt to muddy the water with irrelevant "otherstuff" argumentation notwithstanding. Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted the revert by a third editor and the RM is now running. Selfstudier (talk) 02:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Not that it has anything to do with this case but seconding what Levivich says and that's not the first time you have taken out of context "otherstuff" to bolster your argument together with naming me in the process. Quite wrongly in my view. Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by TarnishedPath

Given that there was an RM which was closed on 3 July 2024, endorsed at a move review 22 August 2024 and that there have been three RMs on the article this year, the filling of another RM so soon after the last one had been endorsed by a move review by WikiFouf was disruptive. IntrepidContributor restoring it not just once, but twice, is even more disruptive regardless of whether 1RR applies to talk pages or not. TarnishedPath 11:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

@Berchanhimez per WP:TAGTEAM: Tag teaming (sometimes also called an editorial camp or gang, factionalism, or a travelling circus) is a controversial form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus.
Where's your evidence for coordinated meatpupperty? If you don't have any you need to retract your personal attacks/aspersions. TarnishedPath 07:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to draw admin attention to IntrepidContributor's comment at Special:Diff/1244972583, in which they engage in personal attacks and aspersion casting against every editor who has voted for a procedural close in the RM at Talk:Gaza genocide#Requested move 7 September 2024 by stating that they are all engaging in "POV pushing or stonewalling". TarnishedPath 09:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd further like to draw admin attention to IntrepidContributor's WP:CANVASSING of editors to Talk:Gaza genocide#Requested move 7 September 2024 at Special:Diff/1244837374. When I drew their attention to the fact that they'd engaged in canvassing at Special:Diff/1244979886 and that they should ping all involved editors to remedy their breach of behaviour guidelines they responded at Special:Diff/1244988992 by stating that I should remedy their breach for them. TarnishedPath 12:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by BilledMammal

First, there was a consensus against a moratorium on that page.

Second, it was recently established that involved editors shouldn't be shutting down/closing formal discussions that they disagreed with, and should instead go to an admin when the discussion is problematic. I note that one of the parties that shut down this discussion, Selfstudier, participated in that discussion, and so should have been aware of that.

Third, Selfstudier previously objected to involved closes in relation to RM's on that page. As part of that, they were warned against reverting closures, and told to go to an admin in the future.

In general, I think the editors closing this discussion, but especially Selfstudier who has been involved in these issues before and appears to be espousing a double standard, have behaved far below what we expect of editors in a contentious topic. BilledMammal (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Given the recent comment by David A, particularly their second sentence, I want to call out the obvious POV pushing that is occurring here.

In this AE, we have a number of editors objecting to opening an RM proposing moving the article to a less definitive title just two months after the previous was closed in favour of the title they supported.

However, that RM was opened just a month after a previous RM was closed against moving the article to a more definitive title.

These same editors had no objection to that RM, and some such as David A were instrumental in opening it.

Effectively, these editors are saying that discussions that propose a change in favour of their POV are allowed, while discussions against their POV are not - and they are using tag-team unilateral involved closures and AE to try to enforce this.

Such behaviour is a violation of half a dozen policies and I believe AE needs to act against it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@David A: Off topic, but I don’t have a position on the reliability of +972, and I don’t express one in the discussion you linked. I also don’t seek to remove all references to Al Jazeera, although I do question its reliability. BilledMammal (talk) 07:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by WikiFouf

@Selfstudier That's really a bad-faith interpretation. You don't have to agree with the reasoning, but don't pretend like I didn't detail why I think that A) the title is premature and, B) it can erode confidence in WP's neutrality. I don't cite new sources, yes, but that's the whole point : I reviewed all of the sources we do have right now and I disagree with the verdict that 'Gaza genocide' is reflective of the wording used by available reliable sources. Hence why I launched the RM, and encouraged people go through the sources table. I'm not trying to be "disruptive". WikiFouf (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Sean.hoyland

It seems likely that ongoing efforts to change the title of the Gaza Genocide (which includes less polite efforts like this) are explained in part by the attention/canvassing occurring off-wiki on social media sites etc. I don't know (or care) whether the concerns are legitimate policy-based concerns, but what also seems likely is that this attention is not dependent on the number or details of the RMs, it is dependent on the result of the RM not being the current title. Unless an RM is guaranteed to result in a change to the title that supporters of Israel find satisfactory, I'm not sure there is any point in having it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, out in the real world, interest in this Gaza Genocide article formed about 1000th of a percent of what people looked at last month in English Misplaced Pages (amounting to over 10 billion views), so the article title issue does not appear to be an urgent or significant issue from a global statistical perspective. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Just like targeting the title of the Gaza Genocide article is not likely to stop until the correct outcome is obtained, the targeting of Selfstudier is not likely to stop until the correct outcome is obtained, in my view. I find this concerning, not because of anyone's opinions on the Israel-Palestine conflict, but because by my estimation, since the start of 2022, around 1800 of Selfstudier's edits (and probably more) are directly related to implementing/enforcing ArbCom remedies including ARBECR, notifying new users, handling edit requests and creating edit notices. So, this particular user, the topic area's top (non-sock) contributor by edit count (normally a positive thing, but apparently a negative thing in PIA), spent over 12% of their revisions on essentially policing the largely unprotected topic area. For me, it's to be expected that editors will ignore this aspect of an editor they perceive as an obstacle or opponent of some kind, but if admins ignore it the AE process starts to resemble an autoimmune disorder. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by xDanielx

A new RM might arguably be appropriate now that the closely related RM for the parent, Palestinian genocide accusation → Palestinian genocide, was unsuccessful. In any case, if editors feel it's too hasty, they should request a speedy closure by an uninvolved party, or possibly snowball close it if there's a clear consensus that it's too hasty (which seems unlikely given the consensus against a moratorium). It's really inappropriate for two highly involved editors to simply delete a good-faith RM they don't agree with. — xDanielx /_C\ 17:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by David A

I do not think that Levivich or Selfstudier should receive any punishment. People who disapprove of the current page title keep forcing us to vote over and over and over regarding the same topic, with very brief breaks in-between, until they get their desired result.

It is to demand too much from Levivich and Selfstudier to expect them to know exactly where to draw the line regarding what is or is not allowed in every possible development in this regard.

Also, they are knowledgeable, constructive, and well-behaved editors. Putting them on restraining order for such a limited reason would cause longterm damage to the overall wellbeing of the pages concerning this topic. David A (talk) 19:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

In response to accusations by BilledMammal, there does not exist any coordination between myself and other Misplaced Pages members. We are merely people from different parts of this world who seem to share a humanitarian concern for the unnecessary loss of innocent lives, particularly children, and going by the United Nations recent voting records regarding the currently ongoing military actions by the government of Israel, the vast majority of the population of humanity strongly disapprove of them, so statistically speaking there should logically be a much greater shortage of people in Misplaced Pages who agree than those who disagree.

Also, I was referring to that this was not the first time that there have been attempts to overturn the recent page title move within a brief timespan, although going by my, possibly flawed, memory, most of them were by new editors to Misplaced Pages who did not have extended edit-confirmed rights to respond to the Gaza genocide talk page.

In addition, even from my, likely very limited, observations of BilledMammal's own activities here in Misplaced Pages, he has very actively participated in several attempts to remove all references by both Al Jazeera and +972 Magazine, which are the two main news organisations that report war crimes by the Israeli government.

Also, for the record, I have been subjected to a death threat and multiple serious personal attacks from people who support the current military actions of the Israeli government. David A (talk) 07:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: Okay. My apologies if I made a mistake regarding +972 Magazine, but as far as I am aware, disqualifying sources from being considered reliable by Misplaced Pages allows editors to systematically remove all of them from Misplaced Pages pages, which in the case of Al Jazeera would severely cripple the reporting from the Gaza war. David A (talk) 07:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Bluethricecreamman

Will point out the obvious hypocrisy by BilledMammal for forgetting that opening an RM a week or so after move review closed with your team losing is anything other than POV-pushing in the process. Won’t argue against the fact that violating WP:TPO by deleting a discussion isn’t POV-pushing itself by the pro-Pal folks either… I saw the admins saying that ARBPIA states all rules are more especially enforced in this area, but maybe the request for ARBPIA5 could resolve such matters by putting in place much more explicit rules within ARBPIA instead of relying on the entire corpus of wikipedia policy? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by berchanhimez

I'd like to say I'm surprised to see this. But I'm not. Levivich and other editors are continuing to try to weaponize AE to cover up their own bad activities in pushing their POV. While the last move review was closed as "endorse", the closer was quite clear that that was mostly a "no consensus to overturn (but not necessarily meaning there is a consensus that it was correct and proper)". The closure of the last RM "overturned" what was about a 3-to-2 majority (if not more) for a title other than the now-current one, but because of the actions of some editors (not necessarily here), the closer found a "majority" for the current title. Then editors (some here) bludgeoned the move review to prevent the actual problems with the close from being adequately discussed. And now they're mad that the community is being asked to opine again given the woefully improper close of the last move review that amounts to a supervote.

That all said, since AE has already been unable to take action on a recent report in the area because of the number of users involved and the cross-user issues (tag-teaming, POV pushing, potential off wiki coordination, etc), this report should simply be punted to ARCA as evidence in the already ongoing request for a new arbitration case. Specifically, this case should be used as evidence that Levivich (and others) are attempting to weaponize AE to remove people they disagree with from the topic area so their POV pushing cannot be questioned. Beyond that, the only short term action that should be taken is a prohibition on the most flagrantly abusive users (Levivich coming to mind as making multiple threads here recently) from making AE reports until the conclusion of the arbitration proceedings. If a user is truly problematic, Levivich should be able to trust that someone else can make a report. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• And just to be extremely clear, I disagree completely with Barkeep's message below that he does not consider threatening another user (BilledMammal) on their talk page to be evidence that should be considered here. Levivich is weaponizing AE, and is attempting to get "first mover advantage" by claiming that if they make a report on AE, their own behavior shouldn't be able to be looked at, because they made the report. Should not be allowed whatsoever. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  I will not retract anything, but I will clarify that "their" here was not solely intended as a third-person singular pronoun, but also to cover other editors with whom Levivich frequently tag-teams (whether intentional or not) on reporting editors. As SFR replied on BilledMammal's talk page, it's more than ripe to have the behavior of others involved brought up when evaluating a AE request, because the actions of others influence and inform the evaluation of the reported user. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Levivich has now taken to claiming that AE shouldn't review the whole circumstances of the situation when a report is made (in other words, that they want a first mover advantage), and claimed that they intend to "appeal" this even further because they think they should be able to own the topic area and have their views on a discussion taken as fact before adequate discussion, making involved closures/removals without repercussions. If this isn't more than enough evidence that Levivich is one of the biggest problems in this topic area on either side of the debate I'm not sure what would be. Textbook disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. I'll say again - if there are disruptive editors there are more than enough other people who can bring those editors to AE. But Levivich's participation in this topic area at this point and especially in AE regarding this topic area is no longer beneficial or constructive - and it's been that way for quite some time. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

  To be extremely clear: I am fine if AE admins choose to punt this to arbcom in conjunction with the recent ARCA request for a new case in the Israel-Palestine conflict area. But do it already - stop giving the guise that anything can (or should) be done here if that's going to be the end result. I think there is a strong case that Levivich should be prohibited from bringing users to AE until a case on those issues is held at ArbCom. They are wasting administrator and other user time at this point. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by starship.paint (2)

berchanhimez has utterly misunderstood the situation in their claim that Levivich … is attempting to get "first mover advantage" by claiming that if they make a report on AE, their own behavior shouldn't be able to be looked at, because they made the report. Levivich’s position has been consistent. Less than a month ago, Levivich said: Don't use my report as an opportunity to bring attention to an unrelated grievance between other people. Please respect the time I put into this. Unless it's about me, or HaOfa, it doesn't really belong in this thread, it belongs in a new one. Levivich did not mind his own conduct being examined in the same AE thread, he just wanted other editors to be examined in new AE threads. I look forward for berchanhimez's false claim to be retracted. starship.paint (RUN) 04:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: - the context was that the 12 January move, explicitly said: This RM is intended specifically to fix the incorrect year disambiguation as soon as possible: a clearly incorrect title shouldn't be left in effect long-term on a heavily viewed page. It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording. This move was closed 20 January 2024. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• @Valereee: - you are correct. There is a May RM that ended in June and which move review ended in July. starship.paint (RUN) 15:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
  • move review ended in August. My bad, thanks Levivich. starship.paint (RUN) 15:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by PhotogenicScientist

Apologies for the tangent, but I think this is worth clarifying while we're here: The applicability of 1RR to talk pages is not clear from current policy/Arbcom pages.

• Per policy (WP:EW), the three revert rule (and WP:1RR by extension) applies to all "pages", including those in talk and project spaces.
• Per ArbCom (), 1RR is meant broadly to address article content, and specific talk page 1RR "violations" were deemed to not be violations.

So, 2 questions:

1. If ArbCom's standard applies to WP:ARBPIA, would that standard apply to all CTOP talk pages? And to all talk pages generally?
2. If the above are true, should WP:3RR be amended to remove the explicit mention of Talk pages?

Thanks. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Barkeep49 if that decision is binding, then can WP:3RR be summarily updated, on that basis? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Barkeep49 that separation I (vaguely) understand. Though, the ArbCom 1RR sanction appears to be documented here, where "revert restrictions" links directly to the section with WP:1RR. And in that section, 1RR is explicitly defined as being analogous to 3RR with a few specific changes (none of which mention excepting Talk pages).

So, can the WP:EW#Other revert rules section be modified to reflect the ArbCom decision? It's on a policy page, but that section starts off saying its material is from ArbCom. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning IntrepidContributor

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I'll probably circle back to the substance of this report but from a CU perspective IntrepitContributor is technically  Unrelated to Wierzba. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• Turns out I circled back faster than I had anticipated. IntrepidContributor can you please address the substance of why you are restoring the RM, not just why it is/isn't 1RR, and why it is not disruptive. Namely, why a new move discussion is appropriate now given that the previous move review closed 17 days ago. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm unimpressed with Intrepid's response, which has large elements of "I don't agree with the consensus so I'm going to try again and see if I can get my consensus." While I am sympathetic to the idea that the MR closed a month after the move discussion itself and that this is a developing situation, the idea that consensus can change does not allow for the same point being brought up repeatedly over a short period of time and/or in multiple venues in an attempt to shift consensus. I also continue to have concerns, as I expressed in May with editors reverting formal discussions - such as moves or RfCs - in order to shut them down. Now that May discussion also clarifies that 1RR does not apply here but that doesn't mean that I don't find some behavior here troubling. I'll wait to see if any other admins post thoughts before stating what specific outcome I favor. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Levivich has the RM been closed? Or was the RM simply reverted so no one knew it was attempted? I was in favor of closing the RM which I note in the comment above. When Selfstudier decided to revert SN, I nearly procedurally closed it myself. If another uninvolved administrator is thinking about closing it, I would support them doing so. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Levivich I did not check the account against Icewhiz. You're welcome to ask for that to be done at SPI. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  @PhotogenicScientist I think this answers your questions (decided by ArbCom itself rather than AE so it is more binding). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  PhotogenicScientist, 1rr is an arbitration sanction, 3rr is a community policy. Two different things. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  PS: ArbCom can't make policy. It can only make decisions within its remit. Which includes this conflict and 1RR. So the decision to update the policy page is up to the community to include (or not). Barkeep49 (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Up to the community about updating that or not. So if you're interested I'd read WP:PGCHANGE about what that looks like. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• First, I'm in agreement with Barkeep that the 1RR question is adequately addressed by Arbcom, and there is no violation here. This is very similar to a repeat of the May report specifically dealing with involved editors vetoing consensus establishing processes. In that report we issued a final warning for exactly what Levivich and Selfstudier did here, and it was clear that such involved closures were inappropriate. Although the RM didn't bring anything new to the table, this is not an uncommon situation in the topic area. Selfstudier supported a RM three days after the closure of a prior RM, and even if they disagreed with the RM procedurally, they should understand that editors often disagree about when another RM is appropriate. Gaza genocide has been through several recent RMs in close proximity so another, though not great, isn't so flagrantly out of process, e.g. started by a non-EC editor, that heavily involved editors should have stepped in. This should have been brought to AN or an uninvolved administrator, or at the absolute least brought up at the editor's talk page.With the unrelated result of CU we're looking at an extended-confirmed editor in good standing who opened a RM two months after the prior request that, while as Barkeep pointed out doesn't really bring anything new, isn't wildly malformed or procedurally flawed beyond repeating a two-month old discussion. Involved editors do not have veto power on discussions that they believe are occurring too close to another recent discussion, or any other formal process. This was already widely agreed upon at AE. That two editors who are taking part in a discussion about involvement and involved actions in this specific topic area would think that this reversion was acceptable is surprising to say the least. Additionally, simply believing that someone is a sockpuppet doesn't free us of WP:AGF, and contributions can not be reverted simply on suspicion of sockpuppetry.In my view the shutting down of a discussion started by an extended confirmed editor in good standing by two involved editors is more of an issue than starting an RM too soon after the last one. WP:SNOW or WP:AN exist for this situation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  SFR: I'm not being glib here: are you saying that the "trout" noted in the closing summary was in actuality a final warning? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  Makeandtoss received a final warning for closing the rfc. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  OK. I understand now. I suggest a warning for IC and Selfstudier, and maybe even a narrow topic ban on closing/reverting formal discussions for Selfstudier. I don't see the same history for Levivich and I see attempts to use our processes so I don't see a need for a warning about the conduct in this complaint (which I do not consider this message a part of). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see a functional difference between a warning not to close discussions you're involved in and a topic ban. The result of doing it again is likely to be the same. so I think a warning is fine in that instance. A more sternly worded reminder that editors should not be closing or removing consensus establishing discussions when they are heavily involved might be in order, as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  That all makes sense to me. I do want to note the general warning will only carry so far - for instance I would not expect everyone in the topic area (even "regulars" at this forum) to see the message. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  To be honest, I don't think we should even have to give such a general warning/reminder, because that is covered in WP:CTOP and the alert pretty much every editor in ARBPIA has received or given. Within contentious topics, you must edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice. This type of behavior shouldn't need a warning, because WP:INVOLVED and WP:TPG already cover it in detail, and editors must comply with all applicable policies and guidelines and follow best practices. Why are we making sure everyone gets a notification that they must do this if we're just going to warn for violating PAGs? So, I guess what I mean about a more sternly worded reminder is saying that this already prohibited behavior will be sanctioned if it occurs in the future. We don't need to hand out any more individual warnings for this, because everyone with a CTOP alert has already been put on notice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  Barkeep49, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice.? That might be enough time for an Arb case to get started, or some subs from the bench to make their way onto the committee. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• @Aoidh, Cabayi, Guerillero, HJ Mitchell, Moneytrees, Primefac, Sdrqaz, ToBeFree, and Z1720: here we have another case where at first blush there is one issue to address that AE could probably handle, but it turns out we have multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing, or been part of opening such RMs. Editors from across the spectrum can't help but to show up and accuse each other of bad faith editing, to make bad faith accusations that everyone supporting an option in an RM are People who apparently support Israel's current military actions, to demand other editors not take part in AE proceedings, or claim that editor misbehavior in the RM and MR led to a POV issue with an article title. No one seems to think their aspersions or personal attacks are the same as the aspersions and personal attacks other people cast, and this shitshow happens pretty much every time we end up here for any but the most obvious behavioral issues with new or inexperienced editors. There aren't enough AE admins to be expected to take the brunt of the fallout from any significant action, if there is even consensus for anything. Can we maybe put the scoot on getting a case started? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  TarnishedPath, I've pinged the few others from those discussions and given an only warning for canvassing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Levivich, Closed 19 January, New RM opened on the 24th, Selfstudier, David A Levivich. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  So there's also Closed 13 February, new RM 29 February, David A, BilledMammal.

  Both of those RMs had no prejudice towards another RM, as did the RM at the center of this report, which had a consensus against a moratorium. We're, again, looking at standard behavior in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Also, if we're looking at the reasoning behind the move, that RM on 29 February was spurred by this, which is about as "there was no consensus for the name I wanted, but I disagree with the previous close" as it gets. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  SFR, I'd need to see the context for multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing. Valereee (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• I looked through this filing and the comments from other editors ... and I have to agree with SFR - the accusations are certainly piling up here. From a quick read ... the following statements stood out to me as being less than optimal (in fact, often completely useless) in helping to resolve issues:
  • "Their entire complaint here seems to be more about their suspicion that I am a sock of another account"
  • "attempt to muddy the water with irrelevant "otherstuff" argumentation"
  • "People who apparently support Israel's current military actions"
  • "and they are using tag-team unilateral involved closures and AE to try to enforce this"
  • "That's really a bad-faith interpretation"
  • "this is straightforwardly disruptive behavior"
  • "obvious hypocrisy by BilledMammal for forgetting that opening an RM a week or so after move review closed with your team losing is anything other than POV-pushing in the process"
  • "Levivich and other editors are continuing to try to weaponize AE to cover up their own bad activities in pushing their POV"
  • "editors (some here) bludgeoned the move review to prevent the actual problems with the close from being adequately discussed"
• Note I didn't link these to specific editors because they are examples of the continual low-level sniping, accusations, and off-topic digressions that continually interfere with non-involved admins ability to get to the bottom of issues. I get it that the real world war is inflaming passions all around. But it doesn't help the issue here on wiki if we tolerate this sort of sniping/off-topic digressions/etc. Ideally, all editors would agree to dial things back, and at least try to pretend to pay lip-service to the ideals of editing here. Unfortunately, I think its gone on too long and I certainly can't say that I have any intention of opening myself up to actually taking action in this CT - because why should I expose myself as a target of this level of constant sniping? Why do folks think this is what editors should be acting like? I don't like the idea of treating everyone in this CT like a toddler who needs to be sent to time-out, but honestly - what other choices do non-involved admins have? The best way to discuss things is to not discuss what you think the motivations of other editors are, but rather to engage with sources and facts. None of the above examples do that - and frankly, until that type of editing goes away .. nothing will improve in the CT.
• As to the actual original complaint about breaking 1RR, Barkeep and SFR discussed this above. All the other stuff about possible sockpuppetry in the original complaint - that should have gone to SPI, which is the correct venue for handling possible sockpuppetry. (I note that Barkeep ruled it as the two accounts being unrelated on technical reasons) All the extraneous commentary from many other editors above ... is pretty much useless. So, we're left with - nothing. We can close this without addressing the other issues, as the one complaint that was suitable for this venue appears to have been decided as not a problem - if I'm reading the statements by Barkeep and SFR correct? While I might like to see something done about the digressions by everyone and the kitchen sink, I don't have the bandwith right now to topic ban everyone on my own admin authority nor do I care to deal with the nasty fallout I can see as likely in my future if I did such a thing. Close this and wait for the inevitable next time when we go through this same cycle again. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  There were some warnings above that Barkeep and I were roughly in consensus about, although as I asked above, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice.? That might be enough time for an Arb case to get started, or some subs from the bench to make their way onto the committee. We can do that with a rough consensus here without having a lone admin eat the inevitable dozen hours of shit at all the appeals. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  I could get behind topic bans imposed by a consensus of admins here, although I really wish that we didn't have to treat other editors like toddlers. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  ArbCom has a procedure for temporary injunctions to handle the kind of situation described above. I am opposed to AE usurping that authority for itself. I remain open to the warning expressed above. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  No, I don't have the appetite for tbans all around. That feels punitive. Valereee (talk) 14:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• No opinion on whether this is the wrong venue for 1RR in this case, but starting a new RM that quickly simply because you disagree with the previous one is clearly disruptive, and I do think 1RR should apply here. Valereee (talk) 14:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  We could choose as AE to impose 1RR on that talk page going forward, but I don't think we can decide the previous reverts were a 1RR violation. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I get it. I missed the discussion, but I'd have said reverts on talk pages at CTs are disruptive enough, too. Not going to reopen that recent discussion. :D Valereee (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Starship, there was an RM that ended in June here that was endorsed in a move review at the end of July -- am I reading incorrectly? Valereee (talk) 15:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  NM, I realize you were responding to a post above, sorry! The context there was the closure itself, which actually invited another RM. Valereee (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• I find myself unimpressed with the behavior of several participants here. As Ealdgyth notes, the ad homimen snipes serve only to raise the temperature. Socking has been ruled out and 1RR appears to be a non-issue, which doesn't leave much that is actionable. I am opposed to TBANs at this time; it feels disproportionate to the conduct here. I would support logged warnings. The CTOP restrictions do lay out behavioral expectations, but only in the most general terms. I would make a warning explicit as to the behavior that we find to be a problem. For me, in this case, it is the venue-inappropriate sniping, but particularly the bludgeoning of a process in violation of procedural convention when the outcome is not to your liking, or alternatively the use of procedural fine points to shut down a discussion when a previous outcome was to your liking. As far as I can tell many users have engaged in this behavior, on both "sides", and it isn't acceptable in any case. That said, I want to flag a concern with my colleagues' comments above. Sometimes there isn't anything differentiating parties in a dispute, and the appropriate response is either mass sanctions or an ARBCOM referral: but sometimes a single user's behavior is very clearly actionable, because they are pushing the envelope further than any others. I don't want us to get in the habit of taking no action, or taking mass actions, simply because multiple parties have shown sub-par behavior. If we sanction one party in a dispute, the others are still free to file AE reports on each other - we are in no way obligated to deal with all the disruption at once. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  I definitely agree with the approach Vanamonde suggests in the second paragraph. Though admittedly I'm not sure who all that means would get a warning (where the 1st paragraph seems to be going). Per the I don't want us to get in the habit of taking no action, or taking mass actions, simply because multiple parties have shown sub-par behavior. If we sanction one party in a dispute, the others are still free to file AE reports on each other note I'd still favor logged warnings for Selfstudier and IC as an appropriate close out of this. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Just noting that I have closed the RM. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Jaredlcravens

IOHANNVSVERVS

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning IOHANNVSVERVS

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

XDanielx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

The sequence of reverts:

1. 2024-06-30 IOHANNVSVERVS adds a new section
2. 2024-08-13 xDanielx removes it
3. 2024-08-13 IOHANNVSVERVS restores it
4. 2024-08-15 xDanielx removes it
5. 2024-08-15 IOHANNVSVERVS restores it
6. 2024-08-15 Alaexis removes it
7. 2024-08-15 Nableezy rewrites the section, with better adherence to WP:V
8. 2024-08-15 IOHANNVSVERVS restores his version alongside Nableezy's
9. 2024-08-20 Alaexis removes both
10. 2024-08-20 IOHANNVSVERVS restores both
11. 2024-08-26 xDanielx removes IOHANNVSVERVS' version
12. 2024-08-26 IOHANNVSVERVS restores it (while also reverting my other minor edits, not sure why)

Note the 1RR violation on 2024-08-15. Nableezy requested a self-revert; IOHANNVSVERVS didn't reply.

The pattern of dismissive replies, sometimes with links to WP:IDHT or WP:CIR, is also frustrating. For example, 2024-08-13 and 2024-08-13 were perfunctory replies which didn't meaningfully engage with the concerns raised about sourcing. Several such concerns were never really answered. Edit warring without more substantive engagement makes it difficult to reach an understanding or compromise.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

N/A

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Alerted about contentious topics in the area of conflict on 2023-11-15
• Filed an AE request on 2024-07-09

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@Ealdgyth and ScottishFinnishRadish: An RFC might make sense, but here at AE I'm not asking for a resolution to the content dispute, which I will probably WP:LETGO. Rather I'm requesting enforcement, at least of 1RR since it's a brightline rule, to ensure that future content disputes can proceed on a fair playing field. I'll try to file more expediently next time (I had a busy few weeks IRL), but I didn't think there was that much time sensitivity around incidents with conduct policies. — xDanielx /_C\ 19:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

2024-09-10

Discussion concerning IOHANNVSVERVS

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS

I will respond shortly. Please don't close this thread. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Do I have permission to exceed 500 words? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, @Barkeep49. Here is my statement . IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:24, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Barkeep49, I'll note that most (~1000 words?) of my statement is taken up by summarizing and explaing diffs, including quotations of the content which was in dispute and being added or removed in each edit. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Andrevan

I agree with the comments by xDanielx. 2 weeks is certainly not too stale to consider, so I would humbly request admins do not discard that evidence. I recently had an interaction with this user here where they in my opinion, expressed a wrong and confused perspective about reliable sourcing and my responsibility to inform them of changes. While the conversation was quite civil, I think they might need a refresher on Misplaced Pages policy on ownership of articles and the responsibility of sourcing, verifiability not truth and so on. Andre🚐 19:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich

had a busy few weeks IRL - had time to make 50 edits though, including commenting at the AE I filed above. Levivich (talk) 20:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

This is the same "various causes" POV-pushing that have been featured in my previous AE reports. Look at this discussion in which xDanielx and I participated: Talk:Causes of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight#Merge, split, or re-scope?, where xDanielx says "I wouldn't agree that the causes are not in dispute" and I and other present like 10 sources that say the causes are not in dispute, sources with statements as clear as:

• "the hard facts regarding the developments during 1947–48 that led to the Nakba are well known and documented"
• "now a recognised fact by all but diehard Zionist apologists"
• "It is no longer a matter of serious dispute..."
• "There is no serious dispute among Israeli, Palestinian, or other historians about the central facts of the Nakba."
• "We don’t need to prove what is now considered a historical fact"
• "serious scholarship has left little debate about what happened in 1948"
• "What happened is, of course, now well known"
• "The facts about 1948 are no longer contested"

(Note how many sources xDanielx brought to the discussion.)

How does an editor come out of that discussion, with those sources, and then make this edit, with the edit summary Per talk discussions, the sources don't really support this...?

Yeah, on Aug 15 it was a 1RR violation, but this "various causes" POV-pushing is a more serious problem. There is no good-faith way to interpret those sources and say "I wouldn't agree that the causes are not in dispute." And there is no good-faith interpretation of that talk page discussion as consensus that the sources don't really support this. And there is no good-faith interpretation of the sources in which they don't support that content. Words are written in black and white, they mean what they say; "no serious dispute" means no serious dispute. Levivich (talk) 23:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by SashiRolls

After detailed reading of the complaint, it becomes clear that pillars #2 (NPOV) and #4 (civility = no editwarring) were violated by repeated removal of well-sourced DUE content. This complaint seeks to penalize the defendant for unplugging the chainsaw being used to fell the pillars without using proper Briteline safety gloves. -- SashiRolls 23:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Result concerning IOHANNVSVERVS

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• By my (admittedly somewhat tired and cranky) count - the latest diff listed is 15 days old. I can't say I think that uninvolved admin time is best utilized in investigating something that is that stale. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  The thing is... *I* am busy. Like SUPER busy. It's fall - I'm trying to put some weight on some older horses before winter, it's crunch time with work, I have clients wanting pedigrees, so why should *I* drop everything to deal with something this messy that the filer didn't think was important enough to deal with when it happened, but rather waited until they had time. Uninvolved admin time is not an unlimited resource... Ealdgyth (talk) 19:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• This is long-term edit warring from multiple parties, there's sniping in the talk page discussion about it, and there's no RFC. The last revert was two weeks ago, and multiple parties were edit warring so unless we want to drop some 0RR sanctions there's not too much to do here right now. XDanielx, start an RFC. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Logged warning is fine with me. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• This is a bright line rule violation. So I think we should log something about that, but agree that something which last happened two weeks ago (at least in a 1RR sense) is stale. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  @IOHANNVSVERVS how many words do you need? If it's more than say an extra 100 put it in a sandbox and we can respond substantively. If it's 100 or less go for it. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Personally I find 1800+ words for an initial statement too much (even granting some grace for theoretical Brandolini's law) but will leave a final decision for some other uninvolved administrator. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Skimming over your sandbox draft I noticed any number of ways that it felt that it could be made slimmer and part of the value of a word count, for me, is to force people to hone in on their strongest points (we can't all be Blaise Pascal). Barkeep49 (talk) 22:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• I would support a logged warning. This is a bright-line violation, per BK49, and I'm also seeing two more reverts than anyone else has made, unless the timeline is incomplete. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Levivich, based on what you have provided so far I can't tell if this is a legitimate content disagreement based on different sources or if xDanielx is engaging in sanctionable POV-pushing - but I take claims of source misrepresentation seriously, and I would suggest you file a separate report. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ecpiandy

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Ecpiandy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ecpiandy (talk) 19:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Arab–Israeli related article topic ban

Administrator imposing the sanction

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish&direction=next&oldid=1245054504

Statement by Ecpiandy

I was unaware of recent Wiki rules in relation to 1RR on Palestine articles and was not actively checking my talk page; I am a long-standing good faith Misplaced Pages editor of more than 10 years now there won't be any more issues on articles related to this (or any) topic going forward, you can see through my historic time here I attempt to contribute to articles in a positive way. If it is possible to get a second opportunity to participate in articles relating to this topic I would be grateful; lots of the time it just for simple things like updating statistics rather than attempting to be involved in any debate.

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish (Ecpiandy appeal)

I warned them for edit warring here and two days later they continued to edit war and then canvassed another editor to help them continue the edit war. Then in early August they violated their topic ban several times, which I blocked them for. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ecpiandy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Ecpiandy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.