Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:17, 5 October 2024

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Religion: Interfaith Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is within the scope of Interfaith work group, a work group which is currently considered to be inactive. Jewish history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Islam Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Arab world Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. History Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

It is requested that an image or photograph of History of the Jews under Muslim rule be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible. The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Airmax21.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

The section I have marked as NPOV is quite biased and presents a lot of info (esp. regarding Jewish tribes of Medina) out of context.Bless sins 23:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

this section also needs to reference where it is getting its info from.Bless sins 15:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

What's the problem?

I'm not sure what point-of-view problem "Bless Sins" finds in this section. If he outlines it specifically I'm happy to make some editions. As for sources, I note that its Albert Hourani (the Great Arab historian) as well as the Cambridge History of Islam. I figure I'm on pretty solid historical ground. But, I'm willing to be wrong... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Varangian (talk • contribs) 21:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

PS

Oh, and I used Bernard Lewis as an additional source. Note the "history" page.

NPOV

This article has a very strong anti-religious POV. This must be fixed. 203.158.42.118 10:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Plus the article is full of nonsense: Such as "prohibitions against proselytizing and marrying Muslim women" being called a mistreatment. With Jewry being completely religious at that point of time such a statement shows a misleading liberal anti-religious POV. The mistreatment of the Gaonim would on the other hand a more accurate statement. 203.206.248.147 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Anti Religious?

The comment (written not by me) in the introduction on the nature of Dhimmi status was indeed a bit silly--and I have fixed this. But my question is this: in the section of Jews in the Arabian peninsula, where is the "anti-religious bias". Very easy to criticise, dear interlocutor, but you must either provide a citation of what you think is wrong, or do it your self. I cannot read your mind. If you wish to criticise, please at least be constructive.

Varangian 22:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Here is an excerpt from Misplaced Pages's own guidelines on NPOV disputes:

"If you come across an article whose content does not seem to be consistent with Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy, use one of the tags below to mark the article's main page. Then, on the article's talk page, make a new section entitled "NPOV dispute ". Then, under this new section, clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why. Make some suggestions as to how one can improve the article. Be active and bold in improving the article."

So, please help me out with the suggestions. Perhaps (and I note that I am only responsible for the Arabian Peninsula section) I am missing something--I am willing to be put right. But I need to know what you perceive as anti-religious.

Varangian 23:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Anti-religion? more like anti-islam, this should be titled 'Muslim persecution of the Jew through the Ages', not 'Jews under Muslim rule', nowhere does it mention the freedom the jews lived under Muslim rule compared to the general persecution they recieved else where, no the safe havens offered. this article is a blatant attempt at inciting tensions, that frnakly dont need any help, between muslims and jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.10.94 (talk) 11:51, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

So-called fixes

Hi,

I've added a bunch of references that I hope suit you "Bless Sins". I'm having trouble with embedding the references but I'm sure someone will help me with that. I have also removed the NPOV marker not to start a flame war, but because I have added the citations you suggested, and because you have not yet indicated what specific NPOV faults there might be.

Cheers,

Varangian 16:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Eureka...

Okay, references in properly. Sorry about all that. Varangian 16:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved page

The previous name can be misinterperted to mean that Muslims always owed these lands which will lead to pov issues. Its better to strictly phrase it as under Muslim rule, because it went back and forth throughout history (Iran wasn't always Muslim, neither was Turkey).

Guy Montag 03:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the Change

I agree completely with the renaming of the page. It makes more sense in terms of thematic organisation. Varangian 11:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I support it as well. ←Humus sapiens 11:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed the following ...

Several decades ago, popular Moroccan society itself was deeply anti-Semitic; whether it still is and if so to what degree is not known. This is language hardly suitable for an encyclopaedia article, especially when there are no polls or other reliable sources to substantiate this daring claim. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.194.104.78 (talk) 19:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

OR from lead

As such, they were entitled to limited rights, tolerance, and protection, on the condition they pay a special poll tax (the "jizya"), which exempted them from military service, and also from payment of the Zakat alms tax required of Muslims. As dhimmi, Jews were typically subjected to several restrictions and mistreatments, the application and severity of which varied by time and place. Conversely, they sometimes attained high positions in government, notably as viziers and physicians. Jewish communities, like Christian ones, were typically constituted as semi-autonomous entities managed by their own laws and leadership, who carried the responsibility for the community towards the Muslim rulers. The treatment of Jews in Muslim lands was generally better than that in Europe. As a result, many Jews sought refuge in Muslim ruled Middle East and North Africa (Maghreb) from persecution in Europe.

I am removing the following because it is original research, and selective POV forking from the Dhimmi article. This article is about history (grantit it needs expansion), not necessarily the treatment of muslims under the system of dhimmi. If the reader is intrested in how jews were treated there is an entire article that covers this content, and that is the dhimmi article. No need to fill the lead with this repeated POV forking from that article.--Sefringle 06:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Whither the Arab Jew?

There was a section here on Jews in the Arabian peninsula that has been moved to the page titled "Arab Jews", which is fine but there ought to be a link to it.

Also, the time lines given in this article are bumff. How is the 19th century "Pre-Modern"? This is, in all definitions of the historical profession, "Modern", with "early modern" being from 17th to 18th c. And why does it only start in the 1600 hundreds when Jews lived under Muslim rule from the 6th century onwards? Varangian —Preceding comment was added at 11:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Bat Yeor and "dhimmi"

Please remove this info and consider replacing with something more relevant or from a serious academic source —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.140.47 (talk) 16:30, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Kurdistan

I moved some text to talk page Kurdish Jews as section seemed to have undue weight.BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:07, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is extremely one-sided. It reads as "history of Muslim persecution of Jews". While we should not whitewash or edit out that history, there are plenty of other dimensions of the Jewish historical experiences in Muslim lands that are completely missing. I am, therefore, adding an NPOV tag to the article. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:48, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

If you'd care to expand the article to cover some of these other dimensions and can cite sources, please go ahead. In the meantime, let's take care to distinguish between NPOV articles and incomplete articles. 207.207.126.218 (talk) 23:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

A broken link to "Hidden Jew"

Towards the end of the "Muslim Conquest section", there is a paragraph:

During the reign of the third Caliph of Islam Uthman, Abdullah ibn Saba' a Hidden Jew divided the Muslim nation into two sects Sunni and Shia.

The Hidden Jew is a reference to another wikipedia page which is non-existent. I would of removed it myself, but it seems like it's missing someone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.1.166 (talk) 09:56, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Leon Poliakov reference

Under the heading "Middle Ages" the article states:

"During early Islam, Leon Poliakov writes, Jews enjoyed great privileges, and their communities prospered. There was no legislation or social barriers preventing them from conducting commercial activities. Commercial and craft guilds did not exist like the ones in Europe. Jewish people under Islamic Rule were no longer excluded from any specific profession and this helped lessen their negative stigma"

Although it is correct that Léon Poliakov did indeed state this in the work referenced in the article, it is also claimed by Ibn Warraq (October 2013) that:

"However, when he (Léon Poliakov) was in his eighties, he came into contact with the work of Bat Ye’or on the dhimmis, or the plight, persecution and periodic massacres of non-Muslims under Islam, and changed his mind completely."

Ibn Warraq claims that this was communicated to him by "Personal communication from Bat Ye’or".

Not sure what the status of this is or whether some note regarding this needs to be included in the article.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

Best Wishes,

Prodos — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prodos (talk • contribs) 02:42, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Citation errors in Middle Ages section

Under the section titled "Middle Ages" the following citation errors exist:

"In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages, and in other Arab lands including Egypt, Syria."

• The links for 14, 15, and 16 lead to pages that speak nothing of the treatment of Jews in Muslim lands during the Middle Ages; therefore, they have no relevance to the section. Unless reliable sources can be provided, I want to remove this section.

• Also, all 3 citations use jewishvirtuallibrary.org. More citation variety in evidencing and legitimizing the statement's point would be ideal, but at the very least, as expressed above, the citations should be replaced with relevant sources that discuss Jews in Muslim lands during Middle Ages.

"In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco."

• The source for 23 has been removed, therefore, the citation should be removed itself.

Dbs edits (talk) 00:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

You are right. This article is in a terrible state. Drastic surgery is needed. For a start, articles from JVL which do not identify an author who is an acknowledged expert must be removed. JVL is a propaganda site whose mostly anonymous articles are written from a political position. The essay of Bennet is a slam-dunk WP:RS violation. Etc. Zero 03:13, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Inquisition, in Spain

Shouldn't it be referred to as the Spanish Inquisition?2601:346:303:A650:2177:282A:4431:848A (talk) 21:30, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on History of the Jews under Muslim rule. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928051923/http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=39 to http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=39

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Verifiability of source

The bottom half of the Ottoman Empire section of the article has large chunks that refer to Martin Gilbert's The Story of the Jewish People. Much of the book consists of letters written to the author's aunt. As a result, none of the mentioned letters are marked to any particular source, save a general bibliography at the end of the book. Since this book does not specify its sources, it is challenging to verify its accuracy. Asking for an alternative source to be supplied or perhaps the removal of the passages altogether per WP:V SomethingAppealing (talk) 07:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I looked at that book and agree that it fails RS. Given the large number of serious academic works we have to choose from, we don't this sort of popular chit-chat. Zero 08:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, and have reverted. Martin Gilbert is a reliable historian. Andre🚐 08:17, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

This book does not seem like a scholarly affair at all, I see the same material in History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire (a partial fork I suppose). The only thing I could find on the net was this referring to a synagogue being pillaged in Tripoli but nothing about Jews being murdered (and by who anyway?) Selfstudier (talk) 12:13, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Shall we start a thread at WP:RSN? The source is presumed reliable unless you have a reliable source that says it isn't? Andre🚐 13:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The claim lacks any detail on the murders (how many, by who? circumstances, all at once, individually) and is not footnoted, given that Gilbert is a biased source, I think we should not include this here without further secondary source verification. I would accept the synagogue plundering because I was able to find a second source. If not then yes, I think RSN is a good idea. Selfstudier (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Source bias like you say, should be balanced, not removed. Andre🚐 19:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Good editors look for the best sources rather than insisting that poor sources be used. This book of Gilbert is just a collection of anecdotes. It is patently not a real history book and it doesn't even pretend to provide a balanced picture. Moreover, the two events here (Tripolitania and Meshed) are quite easy to find in good sources. The Meshed event was serious and should be included (Encyclopaedia Judaica is a reasonable source). The Tripolitania event was trivial as history goes and should not be included. This article is not "List of every bad thing that ever happened to Jews". Zero 14:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Am fine with including Encyclopedia Judaica as well, and searching for a 2nd source for the other portions. However, I don't agree there's a problem with the Gilbert book. History books aren't less reliable for being anecdotal; that is called microhistory. That is the nature of much history and journalism. The Gilbert books in general are widely cited, for example House of Ishmael. The one with the letters to his aunt is less widely cited, but I'd like to leave it in and find a 2nd source, not remove it altogether. I don't see any basis for removing it altogether. Andre🚐 19:51, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

This is what the source says "In Tripolitania in 1897 synagogues were plundered, and individual Jews murdered." That's it, nothing else.

and this is what is in the articles "In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania." Seriously? OK, if it has to be RSN for this, fine. Selfstudier (talk) 21:48, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I mean, or we could just find another source for that sentence in addition to the Gilbert book. Andre🚐 21:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I looked and said above what I was able to find, if you can do better, OK. Selfstudier (talk) 22:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No problem. There's Moshe Yegar and Raphael Israeli on p. 13., Andrew G. Bostom on p. 468,, The Routledge Atlas of Jewish History also by Gilbert and contains the same info, , Renzo De Felice p.22, , another book by Israeli p.23,, yet another book by Israeli p.69, and I believe it also appears in at least 1 or 2 other works by Gilbert as well. Andre🚐 22:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Andrew Bostom, are you kidding? I already consulted De Felice which is the best source here and it shows the danger of poor sources like Gilbert's anecdotes. Gilbert: "In Tripolitania in 1897 synagogues were plundered, and individual Jews murdered." De Felice (p20, details pp302-303): "In 1897 the synagogue of the Idder quarter in Misurata was sacked." One synagogue, not synagogues plural. (Actually Gilbert does this sort of generalising all the time, which is one reason I don't cite him.) On page 22 De Felice quotes a letter which mentions one man killed by thieves in Jebel and another person killed in some unnamed village. So, contrary to the implication of Gilbert's careless wording, the deaths were not related to or even in the same city as the synagogue plundering. So we have one synagogue vandalised and two unrelated murders. Neither of these even come close to satisfying WP:WEIGHT in an article that has to cover thousands of locations over more than a millennium. Zero 02:06, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are mistaken regarding De Felice. On p.22 and 23 he mentions 2 synagogues, the Idder synagogue and the Zlitin synagogue. It says the Arabs destroyed the latter synagogue and looted the contents. Andre🚐 02:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I removed Bostom, but Gilbert, who I still maintain is correct in this case and also generally reliable and widely cited, the 2 Israeli historians, and De Felice, which in fact corroborates the 2 synagogues with the quoted letter and as well mentions the murdered person in the next para, are plenty of sufficient weight. Andre🚐 02:17, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Yegar, Raphael Israeli and Moshe (2021-08-06). The Great Delusion: Zionism and the Elusive Peace. Strategic Book Publishing & Rights Agency. ISBN 978-1-68235-517-6.
2. M.D, Andrew G. Bostom (2011-11-29). Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History. Prometheus Books. ISBN 978-1-61592-011-2.
3. Gilbert, Martin (2010). The Routledge Atlas of Jewish History. Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-55810-5.
4. Felice, Renzo De (2014-11-26). Jews in an Arab Land: Libya, 1835–1970. University of Texas Press. ISBN 978-1-4773-0408-2.
5. Israeli, Raphael (2022-04-13). Dr. Mordechai Helfman: The Fervent Zionist Doer Who Doubled Up As an Eye Doctor. Strategic Book Publishing & Rights Agency. ISBN 978-1-68235-656-2.
6. Israeli, Raphael (2022-06-23). The Rebellion of the Dhimmis: The Break-up of Slavery of Christians and Jews under Islam. Strategic Book Publishing & Rights Agency. ISBN 978-1-68235-684-5.

• C-Class Religion articles
• Mid-importance Religion articles
• WikiProject Religion articles
• C-Class Jewish history-related articles
• Mid-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• C-Class Islam-related articles
• Low-importance Islam-related articles
• WikiProject Islam articles
• C-Class Arab world articles
• Low-importance Arab world articles
• WikiProject Arab world articles
• C-Class history articles
• Low-importance history articles
• WikiProject History articles
• Misplaced Pages requested images of Jewish topics
• Misplaced Pages requested images of Islamic topics