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Revision as of 13:21, 27 April 2007

	Macedonia (terminology) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 8, 2006.
Article milestones Date Process Result July 10, 2006 Peer review Reviewed August 23, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

Bulgaria FA‑class High‑importance

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Greece FA‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

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Suggested editing

No author is granted such long quotes, or it is misleading to do so. This looks like a PR job (unintentional no doubt). I still think the Danforth quotes are far too extensive and even though some quotes are pertinent, his 'neutrality' has been seriously disputed. I do not suggest removing but clearly summarising. I suggest replacing it with extracts from the Nimitz summary. Politis 15:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Politis do you have a link to that? (regardless of Danforth summarization/removal/leaving-as-is). NikoSilver 15:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I only found it in Greek translation: at Eleftherotypia, 13/04/2005. See what you make of it. Does any have the original text? If any Slav Macedonian friends want the gist of it, let me know; or perhaps you have a Makedonski version? Politis 15:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Quote

The quote is totally out of place, especially for a featured article, for the following reasons:

1. Biased. Presents "the Balkans" as being exotic, wild, driven by ancient primal forces. Too much history: what does that even mean?
2. It is not uncontroversial. In 5 seconds I found a paper contesting the sentiment behind it.
3. Therefore, the reason for this polyonymy, heteronymy and confusion can be summarised in Winston Churchill's words: "The Balkan region has a tendency to produce more history than it can consume."'

What information does this convey? "The Balkans have a complicated history, and it's complicated due to the complicated history of the Balkans"? It is tautological and banal.

On the other hand, I cannot see any reason for it to be included, so I'm taking it out until someone makes an argument for the status quo, beyond accusing me of vandalism (aka editing).--Methodius 16:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It had a questionmark at the end ;) --Laveol 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, implying :/--Methodius 16:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

As I your main reason is that the quote shows the Balkans in an "exotic, wild, driven by ancient primal forces". Well, I'm a Balkan native and I think the quote is spot on. Even the controversy you are trying to create is just another example of what this quote aims. I'm reverting--Laveol 18:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Well then I feel sorry for you I guess. Some of us realise that Balkan problems have concrete causes, nothing to do with "too much history" or other banal meaningless concepts. I am not trying to create controversy, but to have a neutral article. Anyway, it doesn't matter what you think, the article should not be presenting as a given something which is not uncontroversial and not relevant.--Methodius 19:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with deleting the quote. As a native of the Balkans myself, I also think that it is spot on. History is used to back everything: Serbs claim Kosovo, Greeks claim the name Macedonia, Bulgarians claim the Macedonian Slavs, Albanians claim "Greater Albania" etc all making historical arguments. However, none of these arguments are practically relevant in the modern world; they really shouldn't be issues in resolving the Balkan disputes. Who cares if the Albanians are direct descendents of the Illyrians and therefore native in the territories of "Greater Albania" the result supposedly being that their rights to the territory override those of supposedly later arrivals (Slavs, Greeks)? The facts of today should only be relevant: what the ethnic composition of the region is, what potential effects of independence are (persecution of minorities, encouragement of terrorism elsewhere etc). The truth of that quote is best proved on the internet: all Balkan nationalist websites are appealing to history to justify their claims. The quote is certainly relevant enough to be mentioned and let the reader make up his own mind.--Ploutarchos 19:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW I think Transcaucasia may be about to overtake the Balkans in nationalism if they haven't already.--Ploutarchos 19:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I give up. I have better things to do than struggle against others' inferiority complexes.--Methodius 19:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'd have agreed with Methodius. The quote is not very useful, it's patronising, and worst of all, we are not just quoting it, we are explicitly endorsing it and editorialising over it ("Therefore, the reason ... can be summarised in Winston Churchill's words:...") -- Won't hurt the article to cut it out. Just my 2c. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I second that. Churchill is irrelevant to this article. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 22:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thirded. I don't think it adds much to the article. -- ChrisO 22:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Ok, I won't insist: I only thought it worth keeping because it reflected quite well the foreign pov on the Balkans. But anyways, I agree that not much will be lost by removing it.--Aldux 22:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

My my... I feel the vibes of the old days when the violence was ready to explode for the silliest of all reasons. Hell, we can even throw a poll over it. Guys, who cares? Be as it may! Anyway, since I declare guilty for adding it in the first place, I agree with all of you ("is he drunk?"). I agree with Methodius that it makes Balkans sound exotic. I agree with with Ploutarchos and Laveol that appeals to history are the primary ammunition of nationalists in our neck of the woods. I agree with Fut.Perf. that we shouldn't endorse it. I agree that Churchill is irrelevant (Kekrops). I agree it doesn't add as it is (Chris). And I agree with Aldux (reflects foreign pov).

The solution is simple:

1. Don't make the Balkans sound exotic -> by not endorsing the quote.
2. Inform the reader that history fuels nationalism -> by just mentioning the quote
3. Stop endorsing it and editorializing -> by rewording "Therefore..." etc
4. Show the relevance of Churchill -> by pointing out that Macedonia is in the "heart of the Balkans"
5. Make it add -> by adding/emphasizing information that nationalists appeal on history within the article
6. Show foreign pov -> Well, it does on its own.

I'll try to work on these in a couple of days, and come back. In the meantime, please behave! I'd also appreciate a little civility ("load of wank deleted", "feel sorry for you"-over a quote? Jeez!) :-) NikoSilver 06:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

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