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The Bhoys from Seville

The Bhoys from Seville (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

I've considered nominating this before, as it seems pointless to have an article about a team who came second in Europe's second most prestigious football tournament. With the recent creation of 2003 UEFA Cup Final, this article now seems redundant as any encyclopedic information contained within it is now at the new article. WATP  • _(contribs) 19:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

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• Delete An article for a team's cup run when they didn't even win it? I think not. EliminatorJR 19:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
• This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. WATP  • _(contribs) 19:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, an article about a team's run to being runner up isn't that notable. See also Edmonton Oilers in the 2006 Stanley Cup Playoffs, another article about another playoff campaign that ended in a runner-up finish. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 20:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to the relevant section of History of Celtic F.C. Deletion & merging is not an option according to GFDL. Qwghlm 20:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeed - having read it again, I don't think anything needs to be moved anyway. EliminatorJR 20:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
• Ultra Strong Keep, very notable team and cup run. It was Celtic's first European cup final and they brought 80,000 supporters to Seville and got two awards (FIFA and UEFA) because of it. It was front page news in Ireland and Scotland for weeks and there has been videos and books produced about it. It was a phenomenon (sp?) Also this is possibly a bad faith nomination (no offense Arch) because the nominator is a Rangers fan and this is about a Celtic topic. P.S. Lets not forget the "multiple non-trivial indepenent sources" that document it and therefore passes WP:N and WP:V--Vintagekits 22:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• No offence taken, but it is very much in good faith - as I said in the nomination I didn't nominate until after 2003 UEFA Cup Final was created, and I believe the article's worth should be debated now that the information it holds is within an altogether more encyclopedic article. WATP  • _(contribs) 22:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• I take back the bad faith nomination accusation! Your a good editor (even for a bluenose!). Anyway "the Bhoys from Seville" is bigger than the game Estadio Olímpico de la Cartuja (£450 quid well spent) - it became the generic name for the game that created the phenomenon, the whole run and the fans and awards thereafter - as I am sure you will remember (or were ya wtchin the Bill). Anyway I will improve the article and add more sources. --Vintagekits 22:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks. I'd suggest merging the article into the new one, to be able to include the various details surrounding the match and coverage of it - I just don't see the point in having both articles, and I don't see anything like it anywhere else on Misplaced Pages. Perhaps something like a more detailed article like this would be better. WATP  • _(contribs) 22:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, the FIFA ref you added just links to the FIFA homepage. WATP  • _(contribs) 22:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• My issue would be that it is about the whole run rather than just that one game.--Vintagekits 22:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Another article additional info about the run could be added to is this one. Looking at the article, I only see around two paragraphs worth of information which is not already at 2003 UEFA Cup Final, Celtic F.C. or History of Celtic F.C.. WATP  • _(contribs) 23:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

More of a case of expand then delete then I reckon.--Vintagekits 23:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as there is more info under the more encyclopedic title. --John 23:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, do you know what you are even talking about? Where is there more information on this? ANd what do you mean about the title - do you mean like the Lisbon Lions - I despair!--Vintagekits 23:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The Lisbon Lions were famous because they won a trophy. Losing in a final does not entitle you to an article. The more encyclopedic title currently has the better article, largely because it is not full of unreferenced cruft like the ridiculous and embarrassing "V for Victory" section. The title of the article should be 2003 UEFA Cup Final, any marginally noteworthy or encyclopedic content from this article can be merged in, and then it can be the redirect it always should have been. Problem solved.--John 00:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not even going to continue this with you because you obvious havent a clue about the significance of the Bhoys from Seville.--Vintagekits 00:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep but rework im not sure it should be merged into the 2003 UEFA Cup Final as that just deals with the final the article could be expanded to include the entire campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barryob (talk • contribs)
• Keep. It appears to be the title of a widely available DVD . IIRC, there was certainly significant media coverage of Celtic's road to Seville beyond the back pages, such was the scale of the fans' response. It may require some work to bring it into shape and perhaps the DVD should be the focus, but I'm not sure what policy says being a runner up makes you inherently non-notable, as seems to be suggested by the first few respondants. Rockpocket 02:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, thats the whole point of my argument - the whole thing became bigger than just the game - infact the fact almost became secondary at one stage.--Vintagekits 02:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Delete this article is clearly not about the DVD, and the current content is absolutely excessive for a standalone article. --Angelo 03:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, its not supposed to be about hte DVD - its about the team, The DVD was named after the nickname given to the team.--Vintagekits 03:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment well, in this case it is better to merge the content into History of Celtic F.C.. We are actually talking about a single UEFA Cup campaign. --Angelo 03:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, its going to be far to big to go in there and there is already a short paragraph on this in that articel. Would you also say the The Lisbon Lions should also be merged into that article?--Vintagekits 04:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment And not even a winning one at that. --John 04:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Which policy states we should delete articles because an editor considers the content "excessive"? Its about notability, not whether you think there is too much information or not. Rockpocket 04:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• To me a single (and unsuccessful) UEFA Cup campaign of a football club is absolutely not notable. It has some meaning only in case it becomes part of a larger content, such as "the club's history" for instance. --Angelo 15:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thankfully the multiple independent non trivial sources state otherwise - who many other times has a football team before 80,000 fans to an away game?

• This is not a matter of sources, but of mere notability. Read the Note 5 on WP:N. The event is notable only within the whole football season. If you don't want to merge it into History of Celtic F.C., consider creating Celtic F.C. season 2002-03 and include it there. --Angelo 16:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• That article would be mainly about the SPL league campaign - this isnt.--Vintagekits 16:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• That's absolutely untrue - that article would be about what the title claims, i.e. Celtic FC season 2002-03 (Scottish Cup, UEFA Cup, SPL and any other tournament played by the club in that season). --Angelo 16:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) There's nothing to say that would be the case - it would be about the season in full and events as notable as the UEFA Cup campaign, in context, would merit a fairly major proportion of the article. WATP  • _(contribs) 16:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Exactly. In any case, see U.S. Città di Palermo season 2005-06 and Middlesbrough F.C. Season 2005-06 for a couple of examples. --Angelo 16:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• You are missing the point.--Vintagekits 16:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• So show me the light. I am unsupportive of the article as it is now, and I am trying to find some kind of agreement, however you don't seem to be interested in it as well. What does the article want to talk about? The UEFA Cup campaign? The sole final match? You see, it's not me who is missing the point. --Angelo 16:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep- sourced and expansionable potential. Although it should be renamed to a less "tabloid" title. Astrotrain 08:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 09:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I would have to say a strong keep and while some may call me bias, thats fine but the person that what the article deleted is a Rangers Supporter. So his objectivity on this issue has to be questioned, while I don't think that personal attacks are right it must be said that he has a clear bias. I believe it should be kept because Celtic recieved awards from fifa and uefa for the supporters behaviour. Some estimates put the number of supporters at more than 80,000 which is unprecedented in European football. Several books and films have been made about the Celtic supporters in Seviile. The people of Seville still welcome and praise Celtic supporters each year. Many friendships between Celtic supporters and the locals have continued to endure 4 years later. The head of Uefa traveled to Celtic Park to present a award to the supporters which is very unique indeed. The event stands something memorable to the people of Seville as much as it does to Celtic.Maplecelt 16:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• "it must be said that he has a clear bias" - could you explain that? And had the above statement been put in an article, it would require rather a lot of tags. WATP  • _(contribs) 16:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment In that case, that information belongs in 2003 UEFA Cup Final. EliminatorJR 18:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep* This event was notable on so many levels other than football and merits inclusion. The behaviour of the Celtic FC supporters and the resulting award is a standard set for other supporters to aspire to.Coeur-sang 16:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment - see Special:Contributions/Coeur-sang. WATP  • _(contribs) 17:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

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