Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:52, 12 July 2007

Biography Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Isn't the "rap" a little inappropriate and also a copyvio? —Keenan Pepper 23:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

This article needed a lot of work, and still needs more

Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC) START: The article, especially the early section on Zwicky's life was argumentative and lacking the tone of an encyclopedia article. The thrust seemed to be that no one in the scientific establishment understood Zwicky, largely due to the incompetence of other scientists.

I toned this down, and remove some of the repetive claims to this effect. One small example is changing 'prophet' (in reference to Zwicky) to 'visionary'.

This article needs more work, and might easily become the basis of a revision war so the editors should be alerted (I could not quickly find a tag for this.)

One possibly controversial addition by me: I quoted the Science Channel (with attribution) broadcast which claimed Zwicky was a "borderline psychopath" and difficult to work with.

It was this reference on "Most of Our Universe is Missing" which led me to curiosity about Zwicky and it would be appropriate to either document the original sources of this claim, or refute them with facts.

END Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Science Channel just reran the above cited program, and it did indeed call him a "borderline psychotic". Anyone have any citations for this? 69.165.175.130 09:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at this sentence from the end of the "Life and Work" section.

...career.He was a fitness freak and used to amaze onlookers by doing onearmed push ups.

"Fitness Freak"? Is this something that belongs in a so called encyclopedia? Plus the person who added the line did not put in a double space after the end of the previous sentence. And "onearmed" is not a real word.

I agree, it struck me as odd. I investigated two of the cited references and found no mention of this, so I've deleted it on the basis of not having been supported with a citation. If someone has a citation to offer, by all means restore it. Accounting4Taste 19:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is still a mess. There are indications that much has been written by a modern day advocates of the "tired light model", which has no serious standing in astronomy at all. I've already deleted a paragraph about an alleged Mössbauer effect on photons in deep space, which is as silly a notion as you can possibly imagine. It was proposed by an amateur critic of modern cosmology, Lyndon Ashmore. Nothing of the kind can be found in the scientific literature. There is still a paragraph called "Feynman's explanation, rehabilitation of Zwicky", which is also extremely silly. It is presented as if Feynman was supporting the tired light model, and Zwicky's ideas on tired light have regained credibility. This is ridiculous. The material cited to Feynman is makes no mention of Zwicky at all, but rather to the transmission of light in a medium like glass. This is also part of Lyndon Ashmore's confusions on Mössbauer effect, as he relates this to light passing through a thin plasma. The very first paragraph says that Zwicky is mainly known for tired light. That's false also. He's much better known for proposing dark matter; and probably better known for his observational work and for his proposal of gravitational lensing. Duae Quartunciae 10:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

DONE?

I hope our club could help a bit to do so. 84.158.112.69 11:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I am going to remove the section: Mössbauer effect prevents blurring

This has no place in the article. Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals. The section refers to Lyndon Ashmore, with whom I am very familiar. He is a high school teacher with an amateur interest in reinventing most of cosmology, and has no credibility anywhere. He speaks of a Mössbauer effect in deep space plasmas, which is physically ludicrous; it is part of his unique proposal for tired light which conflicts with very elementary physics on conservation of momentum and energy, and has nothing to do with Zwicky. I don't know who put this there, but it is nothing but a plug for Lyndon's ludicrously incorrect theory that fails elementary physics. I will remove this section after dinner; this gives a bit of time for anyone to comment. Duae Quartunciae 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

OK. The deletion is done. Lyndon Ashmore showed up at the Bad Astronomy forum a couple of years ago, and had all the errors in his work explained to him at length by every other contributor. I was involved then, under the name "Sylas". You can see a sample post where I explain why Lyndon's work is unphysical, and unrelated to the Mössbauer effect. Check out msg #34 of thread and also read the rest of the thread if you really want to know more. Duae Quartunciae 09:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Tired Light

We have a bad problem with this article in relation to tired light. I have deleted two sections which were especially badly supported and were, in fact, founded on totally unphysical crank science that has no publication record. There's lots more still here that is badly flawed. Tired light is a long since refuted idea in physics. It has no credibility. Modern day tired light advocates do not use Zwicky's model in any case; they propose unphysical interactions with matter particles in deep space. Frankly, nearly everything in this article starting from the section heading "Tired Light" right through to the section headed "Hubble's Meaning" should be deleted, and replaced with a brief description of what Zwicky himself actually proposed and the fact that it was never generally accepted and is now long since falsified. Most of the material I think should be deleted is actually an attempt to argue an extreme tired light model quite different to that of Zwicky, and one which is universally dismissed as nonsense by working astronomers. However, I don't want to do more drastic deletions until someone else can speak up -- preferably someone who is also at little bit familiar with astronomy. Or, if I get a vote of confidence from a few folks, I can go ahead with the deletion and the replacement as suggested here. Duae Quartunciae 11:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is a concrete proposal for a replacement section, entitled Tired Light.

Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually loose energy as they traveled through space. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a gravitational drag effect; in which photons lose energy in some way to the gravitational fields through which they pass. (Ref here to Zwicky 1929)

No way has ever been discovered to make this work, and the effect is now understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. (Ref here to the Misplaced Pages article Tired Light.)

If no one objects and anyone approves, I'll make the replacement. Duae Quartunciae 11:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

No one has commented; I am going to take the advice of some of the guides and jump right in. Major edits will be taking place. Deletion of most of the tired light material for reasons given, some changes to formatting of the rest to clean it up and help my edits. Duae Quartunciae 01:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Finished all the edits, for now. I've worked it over pretty thoroughly, though I'm sure there's lots more improvement possible. Did a whole pile of edits, one at a time. Is that an ok way to work? Duae Quartunciae 15:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

New user "Cosmic Relief" has come to make some further changes. I am relieved to see that I'm not alone here! The change to the accelerating expansion paragraph is very good; I approve. Thank you. I disagree with your change to the Tired light section. Can you please talk about it? For instance, you add the word "was" inappropriately. I had said of redshift "is now" understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. You replaced "is now" with "was". That is incorrect. The redshift is far and away now understand to be due to cosmological expansion. The number of scientists disputing this is tiny. The correct term as an accurate and neutral account of current knowledge remains as I expressed it previously. It is now understood to be cosmological expansion. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I have tightened up a bit the sentence on accelerating expansion. It is not a conflict between theory and observation, but an indicator that of a non-zero cosmological constant. It is a new development and a refinement of theory; but not a conflict with theory. Duae Quartunciae 15:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Another change by "Cosmic Relief" that I dispute in the tired light section. He adds a sentence as follows: "However, several workers (admittedly in the minority) have now taken this theory up again and proposed several possibilities." No citation is given. If you are referring to people like Lyndon Ashmore, who was cited in older versions of this page, then you are speaking of ideas that are trivially inconsistent with simple physics and invoke concepts that cannot apply in a plasma, and which have never been published in the scientific literature. Ashmore is a high school teacher with a self published book, a web page, and a paper riddled with very elementary errors published in a fringe journal with no credibility and no meaningful review process. This is not worthy of any mention at all. There are a few other mavericks like this; but as far as I know there is no credible process for tired light that has been proposed in recent years or which has had any impact whatsoever on the scientific community. I'm happy to talk about it, and don't doubt your sincerity. But I think this change is not warranted. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I need to tread carefully. "Cosmic Relief" is actually Lyndon Ashmore; spoke to me at the Bad Astronomy forum we both read. I am going to fix the changes to something I consider more reasonable, while taking some account of Cosmic relief's perspective. If we cannot reach an agreement then there are processes we can use to help arbitrate. Duae Quartunciae 13:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

ASHMORE gave User:Duae Quartunciae good stuff, where is it?

• 1. shows: your meaning is too common, but not correct, see e.g. ] and that a modified tired light declares Pioneer anomaly!.

• 2. Correctly! Feynman confessed not Zwicky - but his Physics:
• First step FEYNMAN: Light in glass as Quantum effects, never been GR-related.
• Second steo ASCHMORE: He compared CORRECTLY (see below) interstellar gas with glass.
• Two (very hard?) steps to understand what was meant?

• 3. Is insulting other meanings a WIKI-manner?
• Reminder: ZWICKY must be treated with old physics - or not?
• YOU (CITED): "I have deleted the section, based on CRANK PHYSICS and having nothing to do with Zwicky. Mössbauer effects occur in a rigid crystal; not a plasma."
• Are and were all (physicians) not supporting new meanings CRANK (PHYSICIANS)?

• 4. Was it fair to erase the CITED (!)part of Ashmore and THEN talking to him - only after it was erased? How could he see how he was cited? PLEASE BE FAIR...
• Lyndon Ashmore was directly cited and your talk with him was completely negative for your meaning, because ZWICKY means (his and our) old physics - of course no Standard...

• 5. YOU (CITED TALK): "Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals." - Please look in (better:) German WIKI to Mössbauer effect => to learn how it is valid for gas, solids and liquids

• 6. Is it fair to pervert what ASHMORE wrote (to you?)?:
• "Originally Posted by Sylas View Post ... Misplaced Pages has a biography on Fritz Zwicky that I have just noticed. It seems to have been largely written by someone who is using it as a vehicle to push a modern day tired light model. I have taken it upon myself to delete a paragraph on Lyndon Ashmore's Mössbauer effect nonsense; and also a paragraph in which Feynman's lectures about light transmission in glass is associated with a supposed "rehabilitation" of Zwicky -- meaning tired light.
• ASHMORE: Thanks for any help or comment -- Sylas

Thanks for drawing our attention to this article Sylas. I hadn't seen it before. However, there is nothing 'nonesensical' about Lyndonashmore's tired light model. Whilst we will not discuss it here, It remains THE most viable theory on the Hubble redshift."

• 7. ASHMORE ORIGINALLY CITED: “How Do Photons Interact With The Electrons In Intergalactic (IG) Space?
• To Answer this we must look at how light travels through a transparent medium such as glass. In a vacuum light travels at 3x108m/s. In a medium such as glass the light is slowed down. The reason for this is that the photons that make up the light are continually absorbed and re-emitted by the electrons in the atoms of the glass. The photon comes along, it is absorbed by the atom, the system of electrons is set into oscillation and then a new photon, identical to the first is emitted. However, this process is not instantaneous as there is a delay between the absorption of the old photon and the emission of the new one. The result of all the delays suffered by the photons as they pass through the glass is that the average speed of the photon is reduced. Photons travel at the speed of light in a vacuum ( 3x108m/s) between interactions with the atoms but their overall average speed is reduced because of the delays suffered whilst interacting with the atoms.”

Is reading links a too hard work???

PLEASE BE FAIR AND READ SOURCES AND LINKS wfc_k for 3 Astro-clubs (we have 1 Prof. and about 15 Dres and skilled physicians) 84.158.213.87 20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I require help here from the Wiki community. I am new to how we should handle this. I mean no personal offense to Lyndon Ashmore, but his material was incorrect and has no standing or recognition in the scientific community. His only publication is in an extreme fringe journal with no credible review process -- and a self published book. Neither has had any impact; they are neither used nor cited in the conventional scientific literature. The paper is riddled with very trivial errors in basic physics. There have been no experiments or observations to confirm this stuff, and it is described using words in ways that don't fit with the ways they are used in physics. For example, the appeal to Feynman is an appeal to the transmission of light through glass, which involves no redshift, and involves interactions with crystal lattice and electrons bound to atoms. Feynman's physics -- as well as that of anyone else -- does not relate this in any way to a process that could give tried light in space. NONE of it has anything to do with Zwicky. I think we need some form of arbitration process. Furthermore, I believe this stuff is so far out of the basic mainstream that I would request that please the edits that have been applied be removed UNTIL arbitration is permitted. No offense intended here; I and I respect your good intentions. Good intentions are not enough. Duae Quartunciae 21:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to each other. I will make a series of comments to different matters, under different headings.

Respect for Other Users

I have checked over my comments, and am satisfied that they are confined to accurate statements of facts with respect to substance of proposals and the standing of the various ideas in physics. I do respect your good intentions, and will avoid attacking anyone as individuals. I will not refrained from identifying risible physics as trivially erroneous. Please accept also my good intentions in this, and realize you will have to work within a context where I respect you as persons, but consider your physics to be full of very trivial and basic errors.Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to appeal to the support of individuals never identified by name. You mention a club and a professor; but nothing that could identify them. If they are relevant, please identify. If not, please refrain. You may of course invite them or anyone to speak anonymously on their own individual behalf.Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Light transmission in glass

The fundamental issue here is that this has no relevance to Zwicky's ideas. It has no place in this biography. We have your assertion only that it has any relevance to transmission of light in deep space. This is an example of bad physics. Transmission in light involves no redshift of a tired light form; and unless you see Feynman himself making that association, your association with Feynams work on light in a crystal lattice with interactions to a lattice of bound electrons is not something you should associate with free electrons in a plasma on no other basis than your own assertion. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Zwicky's own work

Incredibly, you guys have deleted outright the new material I provided that gave a link to Zwicky's own work in tired light in the references section! As a result of your deletion of all the work I provided, discussion of Zwicky's own papers are replaced with a lot of material developing proposals that Zwicky himself rejected on very basic physical grounds that remain valid today. The link you removed was On the Redshift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space, (Zwicky 1929). You now have that only in the list of papers, with no discussion of his work in the actual tired light section! On page 775, Zwicky considered the possibility of interactions with free electrons in interstallar space, and rejects this possibility because "any explanation based on a scattering processes like Compton effect or the Raman effect, etc, will be in a hopeless position..." THAT was Zwicky's view, and you have deleted the link and replaced with the very forms of process that Zwicky and indeed effectively the entire astronomical community consider to be physically impossible. Duae Quartunciae 22:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Mössbauer effect

The Mössbauer effect does not work in a plasma. It applies to gamma rays in solid crystal. The effects of the lattice are essential. If the German wiki says otherwise then it has a problem. One claim made by Lyndon Ashmore is that the Mössbauer effect involves straighline tranmissions. That's not true. Photons get scattered in the Mössbauer effect, and they are emitted at extreme angles, without recoil of the much heavier lattice. This section should be deleted. It is a series of basic errors in physics; not "new physics" at all; and it has no relevance to Zwicky -- who correctly recognized as do effectively the entire scientific community today that tired light cannot arise from interactions of photons and electrons. The paper (Zwicky 1929) that I cited explicit considers this possibility and dismisses it. The same reasoning remains valid today, and is accepted today.

Request for a third party

I would like to propose that we invite a third party to join this discussion; it is an informal request and it is a standard part of how Misplaced Pages deals with issues such as we are having here. It would be best if we can mutually agree that an a third party from Misplaced Pages has some potential to help. Are you agreeable? If there is no answer I'll go ahead and request someone come and have a look, but I would prefer that we can both agree this is a good step first. Duae Quartunciae 22:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• Unassessed biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles