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Aron Tendler

Lobojo (talk · contribs) is readding content to this article that I feel is clearly in violation of WP:BLP. The content concerns rumors of sexual misconduct by a Rabbi who has not been charged with any crime. The reporting of rumors has no place o Misplaced Pages, in my opinion, and I would ask an impartial admin to review. I would note that two other admins have been involved, one of whom reverted to the rumorless version, and the other to the version including the rumors. However, the latter admin did not respond after discussions on the talk page and let the version without the disputed content stand. This is not a content dispute, as i see it, but a policy dispute. Jeffpw (talk) 14:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• I also do not care for being called an "lazy academic infant". This user seems to have something to learn about WP:NPA. That's just one of several diffs directed at me. I also don't think it's kind to our project to be told that Misplaced Pages is "worse than tabloid journalism", as a rationale for adding rumors to a BLP, and referring to Misplaced Pages's owner as "Jimbo Christ" because of his position on BLP. Jeffpw (talk) 15:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This individual is apparently a brother of Mordecai Tendler, whose article was recently AFDed. The AFD, history, and talk page of the brother's article are relevant context for understanding inter-user disputes here. GRBerry 16:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I see the Mordecai Tendler article was Kept at the AFD.DGG (talk) 17:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Err, the article in question is Aron Tendler, not his brother. The only things relating them are the fact that they are brothers, the articles were created by the same editor, and both contain rumors which have not been substantiated. What separates the two is Rabbi Mordecai Tendler denied the rumors (apparently, anyway--there are no inline cites in the text), while Rabbi Aron Tendler has not commented on the rumors. The fact that the Rabbi did not comment makes the rumors unfit for his biography, in my opinion. Jeffpw (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Aron has not been charged or sued in either a U.S. or Rabbinical court, but his brother has. Allegations against Mordecai, although also unproven, were investigated by the Rabbinical Council of America. In comparison, claims against Aron are sourced by reliable sources to internet forum rumors. Deletion was correct. Cool Hand Luke 10:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

are you saying they are more likely to be verifiable if they are denied?DGG (talk) 19:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I am saying that the fact that the subject has spoken directly about them makes it allowable in the encyclopedia. The fact that the subject of this article has not commented makes it even more so just rumor and speculation, and thus a violation of WP:BLP. There is precedent for this position: Just look at the discussions on the talk page of the Clay Aiken. Though media sources speculated about his sexuality, that didn't make it into the article, because he didn't directly confirm or deny it, Only the quotes he himself made were put in the article, per BLP. That same principle should be applied here. It frankly amazes me that there is even a debate bout whether this material shoudl be excised. It is against policy, pure and simple. Jeffpw (talk) 20:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

BTW, neither Aron nor Mordecai Tendler have been charged with any crimes. They were forced to quit their posts by colleagues and congregants who require a high and irreproachable standard. It is certainly not the job of Misplaced Pages to act as a (kangaroo) court of law nor is Misplaced Pages a sex offender registry of any kind. Until such time that a charge is brought, or an allegation is proven in a formal court of law, then any aspersions cast against anyone is a violation of WP:LIBEL and I would not be surprised if the offended parties would get angry enough to sue, but evidently some editors and admins do not realize this, so they allow yellow journalism and muckraking to exist and pretend that it's a legitimate "biography" when it is not. Reports in newspapers are not much more than hearsay when it comes to such legal situations, so everyone concerned needs to be very cautious before creating more of these articles which are nothing more than ticking time bombs waiting to go off. IZAK (talk) 11:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It is appalling that I should be attacked in this way openly, but behind my back so to speak. I was not informed of this discussion by the one who initiated it, as I should have been. Lobojo (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anyone attacking you here, Lobojo. I see instead a discussion of the BLP policy and whether the article violates this policy. Please don't take things personally. I would also ask that an administrator explain to Lobojo what our civility and NPA policies mean. After attacking me here, and being warned here for the second time to stop contacting me on this issue, and rather discuss on the article pages, he has persisted on leaving annoying messages on my talk page. I'd like it to stop. Jeffpw (talk) 15:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You should have notified me, as you well know you are trying to create a sense of great tension around this issue. You have needlessly escalated this issue all over wikipedia for no good reason and you are making edit summaries to make it seem like I am being uncivil, when I am behaving quite properly. You should have notified me of this discussion, you did not do so, I'll turn the other cheek, since this is all no use anyway. Lobojo (talk) 15:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And as for the "warning" you cite above, they are just you warning me! You are simply using the old tactic of spattering around warnings to intimidate to try to provoke opponents by patronising them. The second warning was one that you just made ((!!!)) just now in responce to my complaint that you failed to inform me of this discussion! I mean really, please stop this drama! Lobojo (talk) 15:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I just feel that I you are trying to bully me into submission. I am not ashamed of my complaint on your talk page? Where else was I supposed to go to express my dismay at not being infomred of this discussion about me? Here it is since you erased it from your talk page. Lobojo (talk) 15:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason to be discussing this article on ANI. An RfC is the appropriate next step. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Will, there was, since there was a policy violation. That nobody on this board cared to look at it is immaterial. In any event, the problem is resolved, as the article has been deleted and the AFD courtesy blanked out of consideration for the subject. Once again, why this was allowed to stand for as long as it was is beyond me. Jeffpw (talk) 11:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

COI editing on Transcendental Meditation and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

The main editors to these pages are admitted employees/devotees of Maharishi, who is the originator and marketer of Transcendental Meditation. Recently, two RfCs have been lodged requesting additional non-TM editors evaluate the pages for NPOV and COI concerns. The TM editors are closely allied in their edits, and are most vocal in refusing any large changes to the article (some edit-warring on this took place yesterday - so TM is now protected). They also are insistent that their conflicts-of-interest should not dis-qualify them from being the main editors to the page, and seem to mis-understand consensus and neutral-point-of-view. One editor in particular, User:TimidGuy, has said that anyone who thinks he shouldn't edit the page should lodge a complaint with ArbCom. ArbCom shouldn't really be bothered by this, but the talk page posts approach flaming levels, so could someone please take a look at these editors and decide what is indicated?

The relevant accounts are User:TimidGuy, User:Littleolive oil, and User:Spairag, although the last hasn't been very active recently. Based on their edit histories, I would put all three right on the edge of being single-purpose accounts Michaelbusch (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I know nothing about this topic but I did take a quick look at this. There's more to the story. There's an obvious edit war going on or User:Ryan Postlethwaite would not have just fully page protected it two days ago. It's also obvious that editors on the other side of the coin are User:Naturezak and User:Dseer, who just got a civility warning from Jossi, which Dseer deleted as "spam", see . I don't know what's going on here, but I do know a more thorough investigation is warranted. For now, I say keep the full page protection, have the editors peaceably settle it on the talk page-hopefully, and neutral admins and editors take a deeper look. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that peaceful settlement is unlikely - the COI editing is a long running problem going back at least a year. Michaelbusch (talk) 19:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There is considerable dis-content with the current article, outside of the TM editing block - that much may be stated with certainty. Dseer apparently has a great dislike of Jossi (see my talk page), which perhaps explains that particular problem. My reading of the situation is that the fire of the current objections will eventually die down, but unless some remedy is applied, the COI editing will continue indefinitely. I have several times asked the TM editors to stand down from the articles and allow comprehensive rewrites, but they refuse - and do not seem to appreciate the nature of the problem. Michaelbusch (talk) 06:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This issue been before mediation and also COI twice already in the last year and a subject of repeated edit warring with no resolution or enforcement for NPOV, article ownership or compliance with COI Noticeboard determination that TMers have COI. Any issues with my edit should not derail the train. It is not cool heads that are required anymore, it is someone to take control and if need be enforce all policies evenly, or if you can't do this, it needs to go to Arbcom. Jossi has strong opinions on NRM/Cults and supporters and critics, and selectively enforced his opinion on civility without also acknowledging the context, and that the Civility policy itself says that NPOV comes first, then civility. I have asked Jossi to seriously consider defering to Admins who have no interest either way in cults (he considers that trolling), and I'd prefer one who can recognize fringe claims, POV, COI. article ownership and information suppression for what it is, civil or not. --Dseer (talk) 07:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Before this thread gets archived, could someone please review the matter? I'd rather not have to repeat this when the protection on the page expires. Michaelbusch 16:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Recurrent IP editing on Missouri road articles

An anonymous editor (most recently 12.74.143.212, others presumably within the same IP range) has repeatedly made edits to the articles on Interstates in Missouri (see history of I-70 in Missouri for an example), generally editing against the Manual of Style and the exit list style guide by changing directions in the articles' exit list to all caps. The IP also usually signs the end of the article. Numerous attempts to reach the IP editor through talk pages and inline HTML comments, like on Missouri Route 370, have failed. This led to the interstate articles being semi-protected, but the editor has branched out to unprotected state route articles and even non-road articles . Calling it 'vandalism' doesn't seem quite right, but at this point it seems that they're willfully editing against policy - would like others' opinions on what should be done. —Scott5114↗ 06:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's a list of some of the IP addresses involved. --TMF 06:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Anybody? --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Anybody? --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I've soft blocked the range 12.74.128.0/19 for two weeks; hopefully this will be enough to get him to stop. --krimpet⟲ 02:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Baffling creation of subpages

• (cur) (last) 15:03, 29 November 2007 Thundermaster367 (Talk | contribs | block) (14 bytes) (←Created page with '{{db-userreq}}')

This user has done like half a dozen of these already, what's going on? What should I do (other than keep deleting them)?—Random832 15:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Thundermaster367 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
you mean this user..--Hu12 (talk) 15:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The user in question has made almost 1000 edits, more than two-thirds of them this month. Thirty percent of those edits have been to the user's own userspace. About a third have been mainspace edits. Less than half of the edits have summaries. To be frank, although there may have been some useful edits from this user, I have to point out the Signal:Noise ratio. Now, this creating pages with ?{{db-userreq}} appears to be trolling, no? — Dave (Talk | contribs) 15:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Non admin Has he been doing it since you commented on his talk page? Maybe he was just testing, and didn't realise that there were people involved in the deletion (that have better things to do), and it is not an automated process. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I posted here after three appeared subsequent to that post, but on looking over things, it looks like that was due to delay in things showing up in the category.—Random832 14:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible Circumvention of a block by User:The King of Clay

User:The King of Clay was recently blocked on 23 November, 2007 for one week. Today, a new account was created called User:The King of Clay V2.0. I suspect this is the same person attempting to circumvent the block, as also today, an attenpt was made to add User:The King of Clay as a new participant to The Cheshire WikiProject, although it was User:The King of Clay V2.0 who added it. I think this is an attempt to circumvent the block. Could someone look into it?

I also wonder what should be done about the added name to the Cheshire WikiProject. My initial thoughts are that, regardless of the first matter, it should be removed, as the addition is not the i.d. of the editor who added it. Whether trhis would then result in some action against User:The King of Clay V2.0 would also seem to be independent of the first matter, although of course it may be superceded by what is done about the first matter. I would welcome thoughts about this and action of a friendly administrator if required.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Note User:The King of Clay was actually blocked on the 23rd.—Random832 15:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok update: After a quick chat with someone, I removed the attempt to add The king of Clay to the Cheshire WikiProject stating that it was not that user who made the edit. I still the other issue needs some attention, however.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked User:The King of Clay V2.0 indefinitely. Leaving it to someone else to evaluate whether User:The King of Clay's block should be extended, since this could hypothetically be someone else trying to make him look bad (the 5-day gap seems strange) and I haven't looked at the contributions in depth.—Random832 15:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Some overlap of contribution areas, needs an admin to review style issues. Preferrably one who knows something about British independent bands ... which definitely is not me. GRBerry 21:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

A CU would remove doubt if the two underlying ip's were sufficiently different, as would a clear positive if they are the same. A maybe leaves us back to here. My doubts would be in the matter that a soon to be expired block risks being extended for a) no real purpose, and b) via a fairly obvious alternate username... LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it's pretty apparent that it's a sockpuppet, or a meatpuppet. As long as the account is indefblocked, I don't see any real reason to extend the original block - blocks aren't punitive, they're around to prevent damage. Nevertheless, it would be a plan to watch the original user's contributions when he gets unblocked. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 20:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Violation of WP:ICA by user Nikkul

User Nikkul is falsely claiming that I have added the sentence "Conversion in India has become hard Due to anti conversion laws which were made by hindu nationalist and extremists.To propogate ones religion other that Hinduism and sikhism is an activity which could cause Death as most citizens and many government officials are always 'conspiring to kill" in Human rights in India article. The truth is that this sentence is not added by me, but by IP user 122.169.51.217 See this link . I wonder how user Nikkul can make such false claim? He is violating WP:ICA by such false claim. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

See , . Didn't realize that this user did not input that. I am not trying to accuse this user of stuff he did not do. That was my mistake. This user has failed to remove the false claim, which still lies unremoved on the page. Nikkul (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Cobain conspiracy theory

I have been warning Jason2520 (talk · contribs) about his edits to Courtney Love. He is stating that there is legitimate debate over the cause of Kurt Cobain's death and whether or not the suicide note read by Love was real. As per WP:NPOV, I believe it is inappropriate to give such emphasis to a conspiracy theory held by an extreme minority of people and I have warned the user to please find a reliable source if he insists on continuing to change the wording. If he continues, I will have to block the user. Does anyone disagree with my interpretations of WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:V? Note that the user has noted that there may be WP:BLP issues, though I think if so, they are on his side. --Yamla (talk) 19:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There was a discussion of this very issue several days ago, I think, either here or on BLP. Does anyone have a link for context? They are public figures and the dispute is real, even if not legitimate. Probably worth covering as a conspiracy theory but not for the truth value of the assertions, and not on Courtney Love's page. I think that's more of a BLP issue (on his side, yes) than an NPOV issue, but the weight is a problem too. Wikidemo (talk) 19:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It was at BLP; I remember seeing it. :) --Moonriddengirl 14:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that an account that lay inactive for 15 months arrives on the heels of User:Cobaincase's (since blocked, along with a vandal account) attempts to insert similar allegations into the Love article. Tarc 17:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

And there he goes, folks;

• You people are absolute fucking morons
• are you people brain damaged?
• vandalizing chickpeaface's page
• blanking a page that that user created
• profane response on his own talk page

Tarc 20:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Unconstructive suggestions

I'm aware that flaming, vituperation, and WP:POINT are the order of the day after the Durova mess. But it's hard to see how the next to last paragraph of this is helpful to anyone. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

So far as I know, that is largely a copy of a post at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Durova and Jehochman/Proposed decision#Everyone else, that was somewhat endorsed by at least one Arbitrator (same page, prior section). I recommend a higher thought/keystroke ratio. GRBerry 19:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

So, we're now endorsing the public re-posting of private Misplaced Pages related correspondence? Just trying to get this straight. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

RA, I think posting to a blog site, so it can be "legally" quoted here is clearly against the spirit of the policy. However, perhaps, rather than condemning the page (or Giano's methods) the committee members should consider the motivation driving that page (and Giano's actions).

What hole in the dam are people trying to plug? To me, it appears to be a sincere effort (however misguided the current wording) to fix something that is at least perceived as being broken.

Some people have claimed that Durova would have gone to arbitration regardless of Giano... yet others firmly believe that DurovaGate would have been swept away and hushed.

Regardless of which would have happened (since we'll never know), perception is reality. Confidence in the system has been shattered, or at least soundly shaken. Whether or not Durova had permission to communicate to the committee, she claims that (at least some) members received her email. A good start toward repairing that faith would be for those members to come forward and said "oops". This would be some small step in the right direction to restore confidence in the leadership that is supposed to be overseeing the sailing of this ship.

There may not be a cabal, but as long as the perception exists so does the cabal. Lsi john (talk) 21:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

But only so long as it isn't done on Misplaced Pages, because somehow it is better to do it elsewhere than on Misplaced Pages. I believe in transparency, but I can't see why it is better to air our dirty laundry on the neighbor's lawn than our own. It is being gradually edited out. More thought, fewer keystrokes, especially in dramastorms. GRBerry 21:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Silly stuff. Are we endorsing it? Well, if we're locked into silly false dichotomies, sure. If we're not locked into binaries, then we're endorsing whistle blowing and the demystification of an attempted block without transparency, and we encourage people to keep e-mail private, while recognizing that retreating to e-mail is no way to conduct Misplaced Pages business without responsibility. How's that? Geogre (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Incomprehensible, I'd say. How do we "encourage people to keep e-mail private" by saying it's OK to post private correspondence on your own web page, or to splatter it across public forums? There's got to be a sensible middle ground between keeping everything top-secret and saying anything goes (except, ironically, posting Misplaced Pages-related email on Misplaced Pages itself). I note that the proposed guideline is in a state of flux and may yet come to a sensible conclusion. All concerned should keep in mind the principle that hard cases make bad law. Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And horror vacui. (see above, arbcom has unfinished business). Lsi john (talk) 22:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, we say, "Keep e-mail private. Keep identities secret." However, we also acknowledge that e-mail is no justification for any action on Misplaced Pages unless that e-mail is part of Misplaced Pages record. There: I never wanted to try to specify anything, but that would do. You want to e-mail me to tell me I'm a dork? Ok. You want to e-mail me to tell me you're going to block me? Well, then that, if you haven't rationalized it on Misplaced Pages, is part of Misplaced Pages, and you should expect me to make it public in the absence of your having done so. If you block me and say, "per my secret e-mail to super respected people and Jimbo," then you'd best expect someone to post it, if you don't provide an accurate and complete summary. Don't use e-mail to justify on-wiki actions, and then no one should reveal any of your e-mail. Don't use irc to justify or perform Misplaced Pages actions, and no one will post a log. Try to rationalize, motivate, or hide Misplaced Pages actions in these ways, and you abrogate the expectation of privacy. Geogre (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That is an interesting concept indeed. "If the author mentions the e-mail in any way which is used to justify an on-wiki action, it will be construed to be waiving any right of privacy to said email (or IRC log) and as such anyone may post it in full. Lsi john (talk) 22:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that I'd endorse this specific simplification of the issue, but I agree that as a general principle it should not be permissible to say both 1) "you may not question my evidence" and 2) "you may not see my evidence". So far as policy goes, it ought to reflect that saying 1 forecloses your right to insist on 2, even (perhaps, especially) if you come up with an interpretation of policy that says this is not so. — Gavia immer (talk) 16:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• It's one of the silliest ideas I've seen in a long time. Not only is it an open invitaiton to gaming, you could drive a coach and horses through it. Even if we applied a need-to-know basis, Giano's edit fail, because the arbitrators already had the email. This guideline was written to enable people to satisfy prurient interests, not to protect the project. Misplaced Pages is not, and never has been, a free speech zone. Guy (Help!) 13:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages is not a dictatorship either. A balance needs to be struck that all can agree on. Carcharoth 13:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Right. And the balance here is that you can mail it to ArbCom. Guy (Help!) 13:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• There really ought to be some guidelines somewhere for non-insiders on how to appropriately make use of information from private correspondence. Saying here, "just email it to Arbcom" doesn't solve the problem. Also, the actual text of a message may not be its primary import. If, for example, someone writes you to say that they are not the same person as someone making a particular IP edit and the long headers or other software for tracking IP addresses used in email correspondence shows that your correspondent is using that very IP, the long headers or other ancillary IP indicators are the substanive part of the communication. --Pleasantville 13:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  My gut feeling on that situation would be "email it to any checkuser" - they're the ones in the position to decide whether it is appropriate to publicly reveal the connection between an IP address and a username.—Random832 14:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  But again, easily available guidelines are called for. --Pleasantville 14:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Also, I don't think your check-user analysis is correct, as even IP editors can tag an IP as a suspected sock puppet.) --Pleasantville 14:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

← To be clear here, I was referring to this version. As written now it is a statement of existing policy as underscored by ArbCom rulings, so I have no problem with it. Encouraging people to publish private data anywhere is an extraordinarily bad idea for which we have no obvious need - there is no evidence that ArbCom has failed to act on credible evidence supplied by email, and inviting people to publish widely if a claim is dismissed as baseless is not really a very good idea. Guy (Help!) 13:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring at a set of Israeli/Palestinian articles; admins please review my action

Due to edit warring on List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada and its new fork List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, I have protected both pages for a week, each undoubtedly on the m:wrong version. Discussion seems to primarily have been at Talk:List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, as that is the older article. Can other admins from outside this conflict area review and decide if there is a better way to handle this, perhaps by awarding blocks to some of the editors? Thanks. GRBerry 21:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Clarification, they are both fork/splits of List of attacks committed during the Second Intifada, last discussed at AFD in September. Somewhere along the line that got moved to List of attacks on non-combatants in the Second Intifada. Israeli looks older because that is where the original article has been moved; but both are forks. GRBerry 21:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

When I arrived at the discussion, in early Nov, the title was List of massacres during the Second Intifada; it was tightly titled to include every suicide bombing during the period, The title construction was such that it only covered one side of the bloodshed. What ever ‘it’ was, it was fact and commonly understood from normal media sources. It had survived two AfDs; it was also quite easily ‘listable’. The ensuing title changes resulted from discussion to remove the emotive word ‘massacre’ and an attempt to cover death on both sides. That was, from what I saw, a positive evolution, except the Palestinian deaths are not in an easily listable format, because there are many methods of death and it is a very, very long list that is ’’’not’’’ commonly understood from normal media sources. Your admin action cut this process off at the knees. Fact: Palestinian deaths are nearly five times greater than Israeli deaths, and there is no article that deals with that except here, buried in the top right info block and argued throughout the ‘Casualties’ section. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Now that this article has been split in two, the resulting articles have just become pissing contests over death tolls. You're never going to have settlement here; the previous article survived AfD because at least it presented attacks on/by both sides; I'd suggest sending both articles back to AfD. If the incidents are notable enough they have got their own articles already. ELIMINATORJR 00:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Boy, you are right there; it started as soon as the consensus started to populate the companion list. The development of consensus took a month. But a new AfD isn’t the way to go, because they will both survive, trust me. They will argue the same points; my point has been that the common denomator is body count and the wikiperfect article should take that view. With the state of the Wiki-world as it is, that wiki-perfect article can't presently be written, so the POV fork was chosen and now there are two. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC).

I don't see how an AfD is a solution. Ideally, the list would have been one, not two, but since some people keep deleting Palestinian civilian deaths from the list using the argument that they are somehow not on the same level as Israeli deaths, the separation seemed necessary. I have found compiling the list useful in determining where new articles are needed. For example, I just created Iyman Hams by researching for the list article. What's wrong with making a list of casualties? Misplaced Pages is not paper. Tiamut 00:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The question is more whether having these lists is worth the effort of the resulting edit-wars which can be seen in their histories. ELIMINATORJR 00:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe that seeking an answer to that question when the two article compromise proposed by the AfD on the one list has barely been in effect for a day is a little premature. Why not give it a little time to see if the separation allows for things to simmer down? The new article List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada was a little less active (as regards to edit-warrining, that is) than the other. People still need time to digest the split and new naming scheme. Tiamut 00:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely premature. My very brief experience suggests that the proper action at this point is to lock out the filibusterer and his attached camera crew, not shut down progress. Time is required to build something honest and robust (i.e. NPOV); WP:AGF isn’t there. It only took God seven days to create the universe; mere mortals need at least a month to honestly build and defend an NPOV description of what has happened in the Holy Land. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue here is that some the delete voters from the last afd (there's actually been two afds) are outraged that it was kept, and have been disrupting the article ever since. The only options they appear to be able to accept is to either redefine it as a completely different list (deletion by other means) or create POV forks. Ironically, this was the objection to it at the afd because of a lack of massacres by the Israel Defense Forces on the list. They fervently believe that the IDF has committed massacres, however, they're having trouble finding RS support that the IDF actually targeted the civilians. Unlike the list that this one appears to have been modeled on, List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, the restricted to incidents in which at least 10 civilians or disarmed soldiers were killed deliberately "bar" has been dropped to allow terrorist attacks by Israelis such as this. Apparently that still isn't good enough, so now we have this clear violation of WP:POINT. <<-armon->> (talk) 04:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Posts like Armon's above are not a description of the problem, but a primary cause of it.--G-Dett 20:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don’t know what other people did or didn’t do; I don’t give a fork, but suggest that a fork is, in fact, necessary at this juncture. I dont think ‘they‘ were outraged, severely miffed maybe, because the original article was such an un-Wiki path to start with; the article was not deleted because it was, in fact, true and defensible; but it also absolutely required a companion article, which was immediately warred upon. I accept that the effect of what appears to have happened can honestly be considered a ‘deletion by other means’, but note that if the originial article hadn’t been engineered and defended specifically to include only one side, it wouldn’t have been such a problem. This is the fault of its creators, not its complainers (which constitute the consensus). Concerning ‘their’ belief that the IDF has committed massacres, I can reasonably say that they have the RSs, that in fact, dispute what you fervently hope and apparently believe. To put it in a more specific topical light, I believe the term ‘zealous’ might be better. Concerning a similar 1948 list upon which this article is somehow supposed to have been based, I will note that 1948 is sufficient time to allow reasonableness; but 2000 to 2006 is insufficient time to allow this to happen. Simply put, 1948 is history; 2000 to 2006 is current events. Also, there is no way to simply and equitably compare ‘listable’ big blasts with an un-listable endless stream of single bullets that have created a much higher total body count. I honestly believe and hope that the WP:Point to be considered by Wiki-Admin is the total body count, not the side that is sufficiently and regularly covered by normal media sources. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• I concur with Tiamut that the conflict should given time to sort itself out, since the split is very recent. I also concur with the protection by GRBerry, always wise. If the discussion cannot sort itself out of the talk pages after a few days, we can proceed from there. I'll look over the history, to see if blocks are warranted, but I'd suggest a little laxness, since the split was initially bound to cause some upset; I don't believe this necessarily reflects the probability of long-term success. At least the discussion has moved forward to trying this new approach -- that's progress. Xoloz (talk) 10:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Your comments come from your previous involvement. I appreciate that. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don’t know if I want to be here, but there are mis-understandings and mis-statements above this line that should be corrected or maybe be re-examined. Not knowing better, I have made specific comments above where they can be best understood. I have been in the discussion for a month. You don’t know me from Adam, I’m a newbie; so, read my posts, it might be helpful and I believe that my views generally represent the consensus. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me wipe some of the spittle from my monitor and unclench my little fists long enough to type an explanation for my "outrage". The list was variously as a list of massacres, mass murders, attacks, or attacks on civilians, but it was always constructed as a list of Israeli casualties only. According to Armon, Tewfik, and one or two others, this is merely an incidental result of the fact that Palestinians target civilians, while the IDF doesn't. Or something like that - because the goalposts kept changing. First it was about massacres, until it was acknowledged that "massacre" is a term of moral outrage with no firm definition. Then it was about attacks on civilians, until it was shown that reliable sources describe plenty of Israeli actions as collective punishment of civilians, attacks on civilian infrastructure, failure to distinguish between civilians and militants, enforcement of curfews and closures with machine-gun fire first and questions never, conducting a major offensive "as though the main aim was to punish all Palestinians", "confirming the kill" of a thirteen-year-old girl with an M-16 at point-blank range, and in at least one case, the deliberate demolition of a busy apartment block with a thousand-kilo bomb. Then the new standard, apparently, became attacks on civilians clearly intended to kill as many civilians as possible with no other target, purpose, or rationale. The distinction, then, became one of intent, a nebulous and inherently unverifiable concept. And of course, no citations were ever provided to show that Palestinian atrocities were intended solely as random killings with no other rationale; it was always assumed that Palestinian actions were intended thus, and it was always assumed that IDF actions were security measures with unfortunate unintended consequences. In other words, the declared standard was a smokescreen; the actual standard was purely partisan-nationalist.

The second AfD was closed with the finding that the selection criteria were problematic but the information itself was valid, and a recommendation to fork the list into Israeli and Palestinian casualties. The question of whether such a fork was admissible was considered; it was determined that a dispassionate listing of events, divided "for reasons of economy" by national affiliation was OK. This solution was not implemented, and some time later edit-war began over the inclusion of Palestinian "massacres". I requested page protection (strange way to get it deleted...) and suggested we "simply move the page to List of attacks against Israeli noncombatants during the Second Intifada and drop the pretenses", a suggestion which won support from all but one party to the edit war. Tewfik and Armon started by mis-representing the closing admin's decision, describing move proposals as equivalent to deletion, and trying an Allegations of Puerto Rican apartheid-style slight-of-hand based on an entirely different article listing atrocities in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. So here we are.

Not since, well, the last Israeli/Palestinian WikiWar have I participated in such an inane, hostile discussion. Armon and Tewfik simply ignored everything we said ("we" being both the alleged "delete faction" and a variety of editors not involved in the AfD, including people who disagree with the "delete faction" on a number of substantive points), complained about "incivility" (ie, calling them on their bullshit), and endlessly trolled. Repeatedly, they insisted that a list with the exact same information was a "completely different list" (see above) if it didn't take their preferred didactic, soapboxing approach. At one point, Tewfik tried a "gotcha" with a point that G-Dett and I had explicitly acknowledged several times before, indicating that he hadn't even read the discussion he was involved in. And as usual, Jaakobou was incomprehensible.

Now, I don't know what Tewfik, Armon, and Jaakobou contribute to the Misplaced Pages overall, but every time I see them they're tag-teaming to blank information that's unflattering to Israel, or disrupting discussions with tendentious soapboxing about the moral and political nature of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle. It's not my place to draw the line between a good-faith dispute and unacceptable disruption, but somebody needs to draw that line eventually. <eleland/talkedits> 20:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

For a thorough, pithy, and precise summary of the situation Eleland's post can't be improved on. I would only add the minor caveat that this isn't the usual Israel-Palestine wikiwar with partisan camps editing in lockstep. Notwithstanding a wide range of opinion and ideological orientation among the dozen-some involved editors, the goal of all but two has been common: to find a way to maximize the organizational benefits of a list while minimizing the stimulus for pissing contests and edit wars. This means clear definitional criteria about which RSs are in unison. There is no definitional criteria more divisive among RSs writing on the I-P conflict than that of what constitutes an "attack on civilians." Suicide bombings are a no-brainer, obviously, but there are heated divisions among RSs about Israeli attacks. This RS-debate is far-ranging and complicated. For some writers, an "attack on civilians" by definition means deliberate targeting of civilians qua civilians; for others this is not the case at all. Most of us are trying to propose solutions that avoid this fault-line among the RSs; the proposals have included (i) a single list with the less contested formulation "attacks involving civilians," (ii) separate lists with subtly different titles reflecting the RS-consensus on one side of the ledger and the RS divisions on the other, that is, "attacks on Israeli civilians" vs. "attacks involving Palestinian civilians," and (iii) a single list with different sections and/or disclaimers about the RS-disputes over criteria. With such proposals on the table and a shared goal of maximizing usefulness and minimizing controversy, we've made progress toward consensus, progress both concrete and rhetorical. This progress has been squarely opposed by Armon and Tewfik, who want exactly the opposite result; that is to say, they want the list's criteria built directly on the RS-fault-line referred to above. In this way they hope to use Misplaced Pages to foreclose a debate which is wide open among reliable sources, a debate centered on questions like these: Do Israel's military operations in crowded residential areas of the Gaza strip and the West Bank, including missile attacks by helicopter gunships, bombing by F16s, and heavy shelling and demolition by armored tanks and bulldozers, constitute attacks on civilians? Or are attacks on civilians by definition only those attacks that have no strategic military objective? At what level of indiscriminateness in the use of lethal force, at what kill ratio of civilians-to-militants, does "collateral damage" cease to be collateral? Is Israel's attitude toward Palestinian civilian casualties influenced by its belief in the legitimacy of collective punishment? Can "intent" be determined definitively, and is it an appropriate way of adjudicating responsibility for civilian deaths? Armon and Tewfik want Misplaced Pages to agree – in its official encyclopedic voice – with those RSs whose answers to the five questions above are no, yes, never, no, and yes; who say the IDF never "attacks civilians," no matter how many it kills and no matter excessive and indiscriminate the use of lethal force, because those killings may be wanton but aren't "deliberate." Any RS describing IDF attacks as "attacks on civilians" is instantly set upon by a kind of Orwellian octopus of wikilawyering, inventing ambiguities where none exist. They are both currently arguing, for instance, that a Human Rights Watch report about "Armed Attacks on Civilians" can't be used because it isn't clear that Human Rights Watch regards the contents of its report on "Armed Attacks on Civilians" as constituting attacks on civilians. No, I'm not kidding. The reason they're twisting themselves into this logical and semantic pretzel, instead of merely citing one of the many sources who contest HRW's definition of "attacks on civilians," is that Armon and Tewfik can't admit that there is any RS-debate at all about this question. Why not? Because to do so would mean throwing into question the editorial wisdom of building list-criteria along a fault-line of heated RS-division in the first place. They have to pretend that the debate doesn't exist, in other words, precisely so that they can use Misplaced Pages to settle it in their favor.

The most important thing for fair-minded outsiders to realize is this: no matter how vexatious, heated, and toxic this RS-fault-line about responsibility and intent in the killing of civilians is, it needn't stymie us in the least, because we don't needn't straddle it – or even go anywhere near it – to make helpful and effective lists on the subject at hand. The last thing a list should be doing is trying to settle thorny issues of intent. Indeed, it doesn't improve things for the reader one jot to do so: the reader will benefit from having major attacks grouped together in overview, for quick reference, not by having the moral status of those attacks evaluated and determined for him by Wikipedians. Armon and Tewfik want to do this because they have an argument to make, about comparative infamy in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and they want to use WP to make it. But for those of us for whom the reader's interest in having well-organized information at his fingertips is more important than the editor 's 'right' to make ethical conclusions and shape content accordingly, there are any number of satisfactory ways to resolve this impasse.--G-Dett 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Trivia issues on South Park articles

Imaginationland, Imaginationland Episode II and Imaginationland Episode III are getting out of hand. Each episode features many references to characters, so massive lists are on the articles. Anytime they get removed, they are re-added for no good reason. A poll is on the talk page: which is a joke, and basically full of editors that don't know policies on trivia and cluttered lists. Can anyone help out? RobJ1981 (talk) 23:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The sections on "allusions" are valid, even if the content will need to be trimmed. The charcters lists should not be included and I have removed them. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 00:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to blank the "allusions" sections and leave an HTML comment about sourcing, though I expect to be reverted by cruft-pushin fanatics... RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 00:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The sections on allusions aren't valid. What sources are they citing? Someone sitting down, watching the episode and drawing his or her own logical conclusions is original research. Articles need to site secondary sources. A Train 18:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

As predicted: they were re-added back. However, it was only on Imaginationland so far. What else can we do about this? I requested page protection the other day, but it was declined. These fanatics simply wont stop, unlesss something harsh is done in my view. RobJ1981 19:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I took the proactive step of removing the allusions section to the article Discussion page, with a caveat that once reliably and notably sourced, they can be re-added. Anyone can revert additions of uncited allusions and refer the contributor to the discussion page, where such debate really belongs. - Arcayne () 20:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Block review of Cabin Member

Yesterday I declined a speedy delete nomination of Image:Latif Pedram 2002.jpg by Cabin Member, but on closer look found that it indeed violated the non-free content criteria and tagged it myself as {{di-replaceable fair use}}. However, his insistence that the image be really speedy-deleted led me to suspect his tagging was ultimately done in bad faith. Seeing that he had been warned as far back as a month ago for such image deletion tagging , I blocked him indefinitely for this disruption. In my block summary I noted my suspicion that this is a sockpuppet account, because which new user heads straight to image space and begins tagging stuff for speedy deletion?

Today I wake up and find that even though Nat has declined to unblock , Physchim62 has asked me to unblock because "His edits do not seem to fall under the definition of vandalism", and given that "you yourself were edit warring with him... you response seems quite excessive in the circumstances." Well on reviewing Cabin Member's contribs and deleted contribs again, I find at least one image (Image:Afghan National Army parade 2006.JPG) whose tagging appears to be outright vandalism. In addition it seems at least an odd coincidence that all his image taggings have been of Afghanistan-related images.

In conclusion although I have not come with clean hands (thanks Jreferee for teaching me this term) in seeking this block to be reviewed, I still believe my block to be justified and would be averse to anyone undoing it without a convincing reason. Pegasus «C¦T» 01:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any pity for editors who resort to edit warring and vandalism accusations instead of discussion after being informed why their speedy deletions were being declined. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the block and, given the obvious topic focus, it appears obvious that the editor tagged with an agenda, not to protect WP. — Coren  16:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Karyn Kupcinet article

Me and another editor are having issues regarding the Karyn Kupcinet article. The article is somewhat controversial and has undergone a whole lot of changes, but the two of us are attempting to get it right and up to Misplaced Pages standards. Long story short, a few people have been making this next to impossible. I rewrote the article last night after discussing it with the other editor (basically, there's only three of us battling it out) and we both agreed on content, sources, etc. Today, two users (one newly registered) have decided that they don't like a particular theory that is included and have set about to remove it. Yes, theories are frowned upon in an encyclopedic sense, but the reason the article basically exists is because her murder was connected to the JFK assassination. Since the theories were presented by reliable third parties, we both agreed to include them. In the past hour, DefianceofTheGood (newly registered) reverted my edits twice and called me an obsessed fan. I responded to them on the article's talk page. Both me and the other editor have attempted to have compromise with the one editor who continues to battle with us and I have tried to get the page protected. Nothing seems to be working. Short of letting people put whatever they think happened, what else can be done? Pinkadelica (talk) 06:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You could always try dispute resolution. Seraphimblade 08:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Help fixing page move

For some reason an editor moved Bamban, Tarlac (about a municipality in the Philippines) to Sto. Nino Academy Bamban, Tarlac so that the editor could replace the article about the city with an article about a school in the city. Another editor tried to fix this by restoring the former text, yet the article about the city is still located on the school's page, Sto. Nino Academy Bamban, Tarlac. Can someone help get the Bamban, Tarlac article about the city to be on the Bamban, Tarlac page? Thanks. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it fixed? This didn't require any admin tools. east.718 at 07:19, November 30, 2007

Looks good. WODUP 07:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous but heated (wheel) war at Misplaced Pages:Classification of administrators by name

This was protected following serious wars, but, as one can see, this has not abated. I think a lengthy discussion is now needed. It really is ridiculous: a war over whether a "category" is insulting. -- Anonymous Dissident 08:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Stewards are being flagged down right now. east.718 at 08:38, November 30, 2007

Please don't. And if a steward has been contacted and sees my message, please have the sense to not desysop anyone. Everyone involved with that page just needs to cool down; a desysopping would be counterproductive, as it would ignite even more conflict. --Iamunknown 08:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that is possibly the lamest edit war I have seen on wikipedia. Viridae 08:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I can only echo that. This is completely ridiculous - admins should definitely know better than to engage in utterly silly conflicts like this. henrik•talk 08:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ludicrous - Alison 08:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have an image of a large scottish man in my head screaming "ARE YE DAFT MAN!!!!". ⇒SWATJester 08:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear God. I second Swatjester's comments. Save us. Pedro :  Chat  09:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I did a google images search for a "big hairy scottish man" to photoshop and it yielded gay porn :( Viridae 09:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it looks like Jc37 (talk · contribs) and Mikkalai (talk · contribs) have been reverting each other over some section headings? Abtract (talk · contribs) moved the page to "Classification of users by name," saying "it should be open to all;" the move was reverted by Jc37, who justified this by saying that only admins should be adding themselves. As far as I can tell, Jc37 protected to their own preferred version on two fronts, and then they and Mikkalai continued reverting back and forth on the protected page (both being admins). Why on earth is this such a big deal to everybody that they're wasting admin tools like this? – Luna Santin (talk) 09:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't want anyone de-sysopped here, but fully protecting something that only admins were interested in at the time is pointless in itself any way. Lame? Beyond Lame. Also, there was no category to put myself in, so I feel very put out :) Pedro :  Chat  —Preceding comment was added at 09:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You could put yourself in the "Boring" category, so long as you're not insulted by it... Gracenotes § 09:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ha! see my ec'd comment below! Yes - boring I must be! Is there a kill joy category? Pedro :  Chat  09:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a bloody "Neopian" category...sad, since otherplaces my moniker is the Neopian Doppelganger (hence the Kacheek emote in my sig). -Jéské 09:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Not only is it a pointless page (and not even funny), it begat an even worse wheel war. This is the shit WP:LAME thrives on. Really. Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 09:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It was as a result of highlighting this page to admins that respected editor in good standing User:Jreferee ended up with a 15 minute block, that also proved contentious (see here). Much as I love WP:COMMUNITY if this is going to cause so much grief, wheel warring and "mis-use" of admin tools it may be better to take it to WP:MFD, sadly. It's just a bit of fun but we can't have this. Shame. Pedro :  Chat  09:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

MfD? It came from userspace, so why not just put it back there? Carcharoth (talk) 09:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, just wow guys edit warring on a humourous, and protected page?... Seriously if you're not even able to abide with the policies you are enforcing, it might be a good time to reconsider your involvement... -- lucasbfr 09:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Note. I've advised Jc37 (talk · contribs) and Mikkalai (talk · contribs) of this thread, as no-one seems to have let them know yet. Pedro :  Chat  09:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the notice, I was unaware of it.

I did some counting earlier, and I don't think either of us went past 3RR, since it involved different sections. (and I'll freely admit to sleeping in between some edits.)

That said, I attempted to discuss this with the user (as did others) here, at their talk page (now archived), noting that as the admins in question are adding themselves (one such admin reverted the user's removal), they should be allowed the capacity to decide what they feel is "insulting" to themselves. I also dropped a note on Radiant!'s talk page (since, at the time, it was a subpage of his userpage).

Slim Virgin may have crossed the line slightly , and though I honestly think she did so with humour (and was supported by at least one person), I did comment about it at her talk page as well.

And in hindsight it dawned on me that I could resolve the user's issues if we just protected the page so that admins could be the only ones to edit. That way her concerns of potential "vandalism" would be unwarranted. That's been/being discussed on that page's talk page.

And finally, I don't have a "preferred version", except to let the admins decide for themselves : )

I hope this helps clarify. - jc37 09:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by involved party which is Mikkalai, classified by SlimVirgin as "Boring": I was strongly opposed the admin categories "Boring" and "Total Nonsense" on the grounds that there are jokes and there are sick jokes and in a multicultural community it is very easy to cross the line, and if someone tells you "back off, this is offensive", you better back off. In response SlimVirgin classified me as "Boring" in this page. Even my replacing "Notal Nonsense" by "Unfathomable" was duly reverted several times. A while ago a long-time active but kinda pain in the ass user was blocked indefinitely because he called someone Muntenian, which was classified as "unquestionably racist" attack by the blocking admin referrred to a "consensus" of an unknown discussion and quorum, and who firmly stood his ground despite numerous protests.

Further, in an outrageous gesture of self-isolation from the rest of the community the page was protected from edits by non-admins. And you are saying "There is no cabal". It appears there is, a self-loving and self-righteous one, with its own subculture of growing intolerance.

Misplaced Pages is for creating encyclopedia. I see a growing number of people turning it in a playground. If it is too boring for you to write interesting articles, and it even became boring for you to chase vandals, to delete stubs about presidents multibillion companies saying the "notability not proven" (feels good, try sometime), and block colleagues for months for minor infractions, get some real life. `'Míkka>t 16:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It was a joke, Mikka, which I posted because you were reverting the boring category. My apologies if it offended you. SlimVirgin

After reading the comments above I just want to repeat what I said on the Mikkalai's talk page: You're taking this all waaay too seriously, and in my opinion, severely over-reacting. Whatever stress is causing this, makes me wonder if maybe you wouldn't do better with a Wiki-Break.

I don't intend to revert the sections (again), but "someone" probably should, considering that they (the admins in question) wanted their names under those headers. (Whatever happened to trusting to our fellow admins' discernment?)

And finally...

. o O (I'm a member of the CABAL? - When did that happen? And are there jackets?) - jc37 21:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I'm a cabalist? So where the heck is my access to the L'Admin Rouge club? -Jéské 11:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude, for real, get a sense of humor. Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 21:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Dude, what if this all is my sense of humor? `'Míkka>t 23:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

By "this all is", do you mean edit war drama? Well, in any case, I sincerely admire your excellent work for articles. It's great that you're able to develop content the way you do, whereas I'm mostly skilled in the technical maintenance of Misplaced Pages. Some people, though, find it useful to develop a community (see WP:COMMUNITY) to create a healthy social environment in which they can collaborate efficiently and discuss things openly with each other, rather than police around and, regardless of community opinion, enforce their will (a behavior for which you've expressed disdain, at least previously). There are problems with this community approach, as it often fails, especially when openness is only partial. I see that you dislike it. But, MediaWiki is social software, and Wikipedians are humans, and nothing can change that. Jimbo's question was: "Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia?" The answer: "Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki." Fine, you don't want to be classified. At this point, I don't think anyone's seriously considering adding you. Situation resolved. Gracenotes § 08:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm tempted to say that we should waive 3RR and no-wheel-warring for this page and let people take out their repressed desires to edit-war and reverse other admins and flame either other here, rather than someplace more important. For lameness, however, nothing will ever top last Christmas Eve's lengthy discussion on whether to block Santa Claus. Newyorkbrad 16:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This category shouldn't even exist, it serves no point whatsoever. I believe it is also a sub user page of Radiant!'s, which I do not object to, but as a category, I do. And yes, this should be added to the lamest edit wars list. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad's idea would be great, except I think part of the issue is whether or not people could be added, by others, to "insulting" categories. So, I propose creating a new page, WP:FIGHTCLUB (with additional redirects WP:CAGEMATCH and WP:THUNDERDOME), where rules about 3RR, CIVIL, NPA, wheel warring, etc are all waived. There's only one rule: you are not allowed to mention another human being that has not already entered the cage. (well, there are two rules, and that's the second one; the first rule is "no talking about WP:FIGHTCLUB"). --barneca 17:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone tried to block Santa? : ( - jc37 21:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This may be more cathartic. ;) Black Falcon 17:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment 7 of the 8 names covered in this diff are self-added: Alvestrand, Alex Bakharev, Akradecki, Jehochman, ais523, Xoloz, TSO1D. Since this is a humour page, I think we can agree that anyone who doesn't want his/her name anywhere on the page, or in a particular section, needn't see it appear there. However, the fact that these names were self-added (indeed, the category titles were created by two of the users listed above) should ameliorate concerns about their potential to give offense. Please let's end this unproductive thread. – Black Falcon 17:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Notso fast. I'm in the middle of preparing an extensive series of diffs for a community ban of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and 6 of the 7 Dwarves. --Haemo 03:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Not the Easter Bunny! Have you no shame... Shell 03:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone thrown this on WP:LAME yet? ♠PMC♠ 06:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

OMG looks deeply concerned The Borg have assimilated all the other aliens, how long till my time is up?--Alf 07:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I still see some free Grundo o... oh, never mind, they appear to be under Combine control. D: Are there any free races still in existence? -Jéské 11:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Sensitive contact details in BLP article

Should this edit be deleted from the history of the article? Jeffpw (talk) 11:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It is funny that the article states "The ordinance prohibits any harassment that utilizes an electronic medium, including the internet, text messaging services, pagers, and similar devices" yet happily repeats the name of a woman who has faced no charges over the case, using solely blogs as sources for her name, basically alleging (within the article) she was responsible for Meier's suicide. Note the sources from real media sources (such as or ) do not give the name, but Misplaced Pages does. The entire article is a reeking BLP violation at the moment. Neil ☎ 11:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Neil, the name of the woman was only posted in the article after a reputable newspaper reported it in an article. The article itself (a link to it) is in the bio and on the talk page. But the adress never should have gotten in the article. I contacted the concerned editor, but think it should be taken out of the history, if possible. Jeffpw (talk) 11:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The three references (currently numbers 2, 3 and 4) given to state the woman is "responsible for the death". Not one of them state that or anything like that, merely the fact the Drews have been the victims of harrassment (Misplaced Pages editors who should know better have subsequently synthesized 1+1 and made 5). There's not one reliable source for giving the Drews' names in conjunction with this case. Neil ☎ 11:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have just reread the article after reading your concerns, Neil, and don't see what you are seeing. This reference names the woman, and the article basically paraphrases what the newspaper says. I see no BLP infraction. I did not make the edit, but I do not feel it needs to be changed. My concern, however, is that the woman's address has been put into the article, and even though it has been removed, it remains in the history. Does an admin feel that the address needs to be removed from the history? That is the only question which needs answering on ANI. The rest can go onto the talk page or the BLP noticeboard. Jeffpw (talk) 12:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jeffpw. WP:RFO states "Removal of nonpublic personal information such as phone numbers, home addresses, workplaces or identities of pseudonymous or anonymous individuals who have not made their identity public. ". So if the information is not publicy available then request oversight at that board (you e-mail an oversighter and they'll make a decision). If (and only if) the information is publically available then I can't see any issue leaving it in the revision history. Pedro :  Chat  12:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Pedro. I'll e-mail oversight with the edit. The address was found and posted on blogs, and the person has had their house vandalised as a result. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Jeffpw (talk) 13:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If that is the case, then Misplaced Pages certainly should not be party to publishing the address in any way. As you say, err on the side of caution. Pedro :  Chat  13:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that caution should be exercised in cases like this (people's property being vandalised), even though it is available (and more accessible) elsewhere. The address was added in this edit so all revisions between will need to be removed. Might be helpful to include that in the email unless you've already sent it. James086 13:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing large chunks of edit history (I didn't even look, but you said "all revisions between") is a problem for the GFDL, though I hope that the oversights know this and can take appropriate measures like pasting the history entries to the talk page.—Random832 14:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Oversight gives more information on this. It is acknowledge that there may be no simple solution at time when subsequent edits have occured in proper attribution (GFDL I'm not sure about). Pedro :  Chat  14:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

There's 26 edits to be removed but I'm sure the Oversights will figure something out. There were only 3 different editors to change the page in that time, 2 of which have edited it much more, so they are credited in the history elsewhere. The other editor was just adding a wikilink. Still, there's probably a procedure established for this. James086 14:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I've emailed the diffs to Oversight, and have added a message on the article talk page in bold, saying that the info may not be returned to the article, with links to policy supporting that. Jeffpw 15:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If nothing else, they could just kill all revisions from the time the information was introduced to the present. That'd be drastic, but would solve the attribution problem.—Random832 18:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Vvmundakkal

Advice. User:Vvmundakkal may have just violated WP:LEGAL. Basically, the guy has been focused on an extremely limited series of articles, one of which is Ezhava. That article had been permanently locked down for almost a month and after a ton of discussions, a good semi-clean version was there. All he has done since then is:

• revert back to the old biased one (note that he starts adding it in pieces later which you are telling are just copy-and-paste because its two ref tags for the same source badly done).
• He did attempt to simply post a pile of OR at Talk:Ezhava but I can't get him to actually discuss anything.
• He keeps recreating List of Notable Ezhavas (regarding of what I keep telling him about the previous deletions), again no sources.
• Tonight, he complains and warns me (User_talk:Ricky81682#Re) that he has talked on the "Orkut forums and we have planned to contact Mr Vayalar Ravi GOI Federal minster,(in order to reach a amicable solution)"
• Tonight, he again post the exact same old text (the problem is that sources are all lies - 2 are the same and say nothing of the sort, 2 others are online and also complete misrepresentations).
• He's added something at Talk:Ezhava but frankly, I'm pretty sure it'll be the same.

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for what to do with an article like Ezhava where there are a ton of books cited but the ones I've managed to get have so far been mostly completely nonsense or non-existent? Delete and start over? Any help would be very appreciated. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

please see , this was he reported as vioaltion. please see my reply in detail. i am not a regular editor of Misplaced Pages and i have more or less infor abt wiki policies. I strongly beilive that i have not vilated any policies.

Please find details added on Talk:Ezhava pointing refs for the content added.

regarding List of Notable Ezhavas

Many so called List of Ezhava Tharavads or List of Nair Tharavads deleted because there seem to be no valid resources to varify it. Now the List of Notable Ezhavas consists of entries/items which has an article in wiki. I think there are list like this

There are many list like List of Nairs, which also consists of some items or entries doesnt have an article in wiki. still its there and also its just list of Notable ezhavas,(not the list of all ezhavas). Also If you see Nambiar (Nair Subcaste), its also has a large list of family names and list people from that community. None of these entries(in List of Nairs and Nambiar (Nair Subcaste)) are varifiable there except one or two which have an article in wiki. thank you

Vvmundakkal (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not seeing where this user has made a legal threat, and other than that this looks like a content dispute. You may want to try dispute resolution. Natalie 16:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Michael Broadbent

John Michael Broadbent (notable wine chap) has been replaced with Michael James Broadbent (not notable Australian) at the instance of User:Broadbent30. Please could it be reverted. - Kittybrewster ☎ 12:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Reverted (non-admin) and warning given to Broadbent30 --WebHamster 12:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying us. Note that you could have done it by clicking on the date of the previous revision, then edited and saved that revision. -- lucasbfr 12:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Forwarded request

The following request for a block is being made by 213.124.168.231 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) with this message: "This IP address is from Da Vinci College in Gorinchem, Netherlands. It is full of students and will probably continue to be a source of vandalism. I recommend this account be blocked indefinitely."

• note: I wasn't for sure if I should add this {{SharedIPEDU|Da Vinci College in Gorinchem, Netherlands}}

because the ip-hostmask doesn't identify the school. also this ip-address has never received a block before but has been warned many times.▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 13:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If they want to block their college from editing Misplaced Pages they can do it at their end, through technical restrictions. No need for us to intervene. We've been down this line before, I'm sure. Pedro :  Chat  13:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll convey the message, should I also add the SharedIPEDU template to alert admins in the future?▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 13:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

May as well. Thanks Sirex. Pedro :  Chat  13:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Moldopodo

This user has already been brought once here because of PA remarks against me on his userpage. He had then opposed the admin's deletion of questionable text from his page, reintroducing the text, until he was threatened with more severe action by the admin who handled that.

Nevertheless, he has reintroduced the remarks under a different form: "My page was vandalised by User:Moldorubo related to User:Dc76." I have asked him nicely to remove them. However, he does not want to respond to this, despite the fact that he has been online for many-many hours in the last 4 days, since I asked him.

Could you, please, see that the remarks are removed. I have stated clearly to the user that I have no relation to Moldorubo, and I dislike being suggested that I am related with a banned user. I asked that all references to me be removed from his page.:Dc76\ 16:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• You may delete my post if I am not allowed to post here. All I wanted to say, User Moldorubo used exact same edits, exact same language, exact same places, exactly at the time when user Dc 76 was off line, right after the heating with editing on Balti article, and right after Dc 76 publicly declared "I will not edit for the next hours". When I have publicly mentioned all thse details on one of the talk pages, User Dc 76 reappeared and pretended to have an imaginary dialog with User Moldorubo on Balti talk page with personal references (which may as well fall under personal attack policy) in my regard (which were at a certain point deleted from the talk page, but I brought them back). Should you (the neutral person who will review this) need more references, exact diffs, etc. please let me know on my talk page by a short notice request and I will spend the necessary time and find them all. In the meanwhile you can find all of them on my talk page and on Balti (as referred to Moldavian city) talk page. I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that the user apparently plays with I.P. addresses (we had just as Polish IP users editing the same edits as Dc 76 or Moldorubo, as well as Tanzaian IP users doing exact same dits at exact same places while Dc 76 was "officially offline", who surprisingy know so much about Moldova in general and even about Balti (city in Moldova) in particular, being either in Poland or in Africa, interesting coincidence. Thank you in advance.Moldopodo (talk) 23:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

The above text is a characteristic sample of badmouth and unsubstantiated claims by Moldopodo. I would like to state again for the record: I have no relationship with Moldorubo or any blocked users. My only possible mistake was that I considered Moldorubo a good faith editor, without checking his/her contribs, and exchanged two paragraphs. The fact that a blocked user does some edits when I am offline should not be my concern. I also am outraged at the indication that I play with some IPs. I hereby ask a sysop to perform an IP check against whomever one wishes. Recently (last several months) I edited from two IP addresses: home and office, both located in the same city, same country. I am open to provide futher information by email to an admin that needs that. I fail to understand what is wrong with the fact that someone from Poland or Tanzania does a random edit on one of the articles I edit; how can I be responsible for that?.

I also ask respectfully to review the above statement by Moldopodo, and decide whether it is not an abuse for one user to badmouth another one so shamelessly (full of falsities) as Moldopodo just did above.

After this would be done, I have a last request. I would like to ask a sysop to check Moldopodo against this person, the administrator of this site. Moldopodo has constantly pushed for the inclusion of this website as an external link to the artilce Bălţi, despite it being a commercial site, and I am afraid we are dealing with a commercial PR campaign here. :Dc76\ 14:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Dispute resolution, second on the left down the hall. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

About Moldorubo, he has already been confirmed as User:Bonaparte, so the Tanzanian Ip's make perfect sense. About verifying Mold's identity, Misplaced Pages is based on the respect of anonymity, so identifying a user certainly should not be done. TSO1D 15:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

2. So, a statement that I am related to Bonaparte should just stay on that user's page?
3. The proper place for this last one is dispute resolution, but I just want to add the extent to which I meant it: I suggest that there could be a conflict of interest, of commercial nature, when an user related to a company repeatedly adds his/her company in the external links of the city's WP article. Who that user is in real life is not my concern, you are right here. So, only about commercial interest, nothing more. :Dc76\ 16:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

String of usernames

I am not very well versed in usernames and/or sockpuppets, so I thought it better to report this suspicious group of names and creations here (a bit too complicated for WP:UAA, probably).

Created today:

• 15:21: User:Annual pilgrimage
• 15:21: User:Insult da profet
• 15:22: User:Going to hell if i shave my beard (blocked at 15:33 by Pilotguy)
• 15:23: User:God isn't real
• 15:24: User:Allah is the greatest, most merciful
• 15:24: User:Forgive my sins

I suspect that these are six accounts by the same user (aren't users restricted to max 6 accounts per IP per day?), and the second, third, fourth and fifth are immediately blockable per our user name policy (2nd and 4th probably with a username hardblock). What to do with user 1 and 6? Leave alone? Block? Checkuser? Fram 15:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd say block em all. This is simply a hunch, but a load of socks were attacking The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its talk page. As well as my and GlassCobra's user pages. I think the only reason those haven't done anything is because I protected the article and its talk page. I may be wrong but I think there is a good chance that they are connected. They may be the Genesis vandal.KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 15:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove (redux)

Community ban imposed. — Coren  05:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Dalmatia

Recently Giovanni Giove has taken to removing talk page posts he doesn't like on the grounds that they are "personal attacks". The problem is that (a) the comments he removes are not personal attacks, (b) he edit wars over it, and (c) Giovanni himself makes comments that are much worse than the comments he removes. Examples of supposed "personal attacks" removed: (edit warring over it: ), , (edit warring over it: ), . Examples of peronal attacks Giovanni has himself been making: "poor, poor idiots", "shameful lies of shameful users", "you (...) are a shame for your own country". (These are not exhaustive lists)
Giovanni Giove is on an ArbCom revert parole (one rever per page per week). Whether this applies to talk pages seems to be a grey area (though one ArbCom clerk I spoke to said it probably would) but the underlying issue here - the total inability to work with other editors - needs to be addressed regardless. I am more than aware that few users in the Dalmatia dispute are saints, but one user is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of edit warring, POV pushing and generally creating conflict. I indefblocked Giovanni Giove a fortnight ago for this reason, though Thatcher131 reduced this to two days on the grounds that there were extenuating circumstances (I hold no grudge against him for that). Giovanni Giove unfortunately has not changed at all since then, has continued with his typical POV warrioring and indeed has become significantly more hostile towards everyone. I think it's time that we realise that he is unlikely to become a productive user anytime soon given his deep-seated POV and substantial history of disruption (see block log). Therefore, I ask the community to ban this user. – Steel 16:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the terms of parole, this is a clear WP:3RR violation (that isn't limited to articles). I am blocking for one week; let's hope that's sufficient for him to cool down. — Coren 

(Added note) I don't think it's clear that the revert parole would apply to talk pages either, hence I'm not considering this a parole violation— but I'm not going to raise a fuss if someone disagrees and extends/indefs the block. — Coren  16:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; I appreciate the action. I still think it's worth keeping this thread open to gather opinions on whether a full community ban is warranted. Seven previous blocks have failed to solve the problem. – Steel 16:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not marking this resolved yet. — Coren  16:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm fully prepared to indef this. Edits like demonstrate that, in addition to edit warring and incivility, there is also a blatant failure of even trying to reach something like neutrality. This is the hallmark of an inveterate tendentious editor and POV-pusher. We ought to be banning such people far quicker and with far less prior fuss. Failure to strive for NPOV is the true bannable offense here and the true cause of all the disruption. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. – Steel 17:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I can not support blocking someone because of how they treat their own talk page, no matter as a regular 3RR complaint or as a 1RR parole violation. 3RR/1RR certainly applies if the editor is editing someone else's user talk page, and it clearly applies to all other namespaces -- but not the user's own talk page. Regarding the rest of the allegations of poor behavior, I will have to look at them later. Note, however, that there are at least 5 edit warring editors on Dalmatia issues, they appear to work in groups, and only two of them are currently under Arbcom sanction. Thatcher131 17:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Then the solution is to ban the others too, not to let this one loose again. Arbcom sanctions or no Arbcom sanctions. If G.G.'s behaviour, as far as I've seen it, is in some way representative of "normal" standards of behaviour in that domain, then the domain needs a good thorough purge. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Where does Giovanni's own user talk page factor into this? No-one has even mentioned it. – Steel 17:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify: The 3RR violation was on Talk:Birth Place of Marco Polo, right? Some of the other incivil edit summaries were on his own talkk; the edit warring there isn't really the issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That's (Talk:Birth Place of Marco Polo) is why I blocked him. The duration, however, was increased to one week rather than the more typical day because of the general incivility and the previous 3RR blocks. — Coren  17:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Err, yes you're right. Removing posts from his own talk page is fine, but incivility there is not. – Steel 17:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

And the inappropriate edit cited by Fut.Perf. was on the Jakov Mikalja article, not their own user talk page. — Satori Son 17:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I missed that he was reverting article talk pages. Comes of responding to messages in the middle of an experiment. Article talk pages are definitely covered by the 1RR parole (as would be policy pages, images, etc.) Thatcher131 17:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay then, if there are no other objections, I'm going ahead and extending the block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

May I request for review ban against Giovanni Giove? Because I think so: he is valid collaborator. Regards. LEO, 1 December 2007

There comes a point, LEO, when the net benefit of an editor's contribution is no longer believed to compensate for the disruption caused by their behavior. Giovanni Giove has pretty much passed this point by now, and does not appear to be willing to amend his behavior.

A ban, however, is not a permanent or irreversible matter— Giovanni might be able to return under some parole terms, for instance, if he discusses those with an administrator who then agrees to unblock him under those conditions. Alternately, he may request that the arbitration committee look at the ban, possibly also including parole terms. In all cases, it is very likely that such a return would be conditional to a topic ban. — Coren  16:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

David Mader Article

Dont know if this is the how process works but I am looking for advice on an article I am having trouble on the David Mader article with an editor who is using two accounts. I have placed citation tags on this article and the editor Fansnofans 1983 who is also ip 62.199.135.50 which can be proved here keeps putting in spurious references which are in Danish. I have removed refs as per WP:RSUE not sure if I was correct on that assumption surely on English Misplaced Pages refs should be WP:V which I cant do as I dont speak Danish, what is procedure regarding non-English refs. I think it is a vanity piece. Editor has even denied being David Mader without even being suspected, thanks in advance for your help. BigDunc 16:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You may want to post a note at WP:BLP/N. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Will do thanks. BigDunc 17:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The policy you cite has detailed discussion of how to handle non-English references, at WP:V#Non-English sources, which says they're allowed if there isn't an equivalent English reference. The fact that you don't speak Danish doesn't make the reference spurious. The reference would be unverifiable if no-one spoke Danish, but lots of people do. Of course it should be checked, particularly if suspect them - the correct place to do that is either at the talk page of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Denmark or someone in Category:User da. I don't understand why you are removing Danish language references when the policy says that, in some circumstances, they're okay, and you've not taken obvious steps to check that they are okay. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats why I asked thanks for that but one ref was a PDF document and another looked like a scanned page out of a magazine. But will go to places you have suggested. BigDunc 17:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This singer does not appear to meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC. Suggest you try WP:PROD and then take it to AfD if it is contested. Challenging the article's notability is less bothersome than having to sort out any issues of editor misbehavior or foreign language references, which are much less clear-cut and are harder to resolve. EdJohnston 18:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A few obvious socks that could use blocking

Already blocked

• Paradocks (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Still around adding nonsense or as sleepers

• Paradocks11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks14 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Other than the obvious name similarities, Paradocks11 also appears to have the same fascination as Paradocks8 with Kermit the Frog. I can't see the majority of Paradocks13's edits, but his talk page would suggest none have been helpful. As far as I can tell, Paradocks14 has done nothing yet, but I would expect that the name alone would be enough of a link. --Onorem♠Dil 17:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Having multiple accounts is not a blockable offense. Disruption is. `'Míkka>t 17:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This seems like a worthwhile edit.

This is another gem.

Obvious socks of obvious sockpuppeteers that blatantly vandalize are being disruptive. --Onorem♠Dil 17:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that having over 10 "alternate accounts" is disruptive in itself. — Coren  18:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Roadcrusher Socks

CheckUser confirms two new socks of Roadcrusher, who often uploads copyvios. Since Roadcrusher had previously been blocked for socks, I advise blocking socks User talk:Bothtones7 and User talk:Soondesk6 and requesting that Roadcrusher go back to using his original account.

Because there was a notable break in time between the last block of a suspected Roadcrusher sock and the addition of these socks (which can be considered a time out, I suppose), and that Soondesk6 has shown to be less rampant with the copyvios than previous socks, I am not opposed to lighter measures than blanket blocking, but I leave final decision to admins' discretion. Kelvinc 19:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

BetacommandBot blocked

This discussion is now closed. The issue with the bot editing incorrectly is not an issue anymore, which was the reason for my block. The bot is unblocked, and beta is attempting to identify and resolve the issue. There was never an issue with the bot's edits when it runs properly, and I'm big enough to take my part in this on the chin. Before this drags out any further I think we should just move on to more productive areas. Hiding T 23:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I've just blocked User:BetacommandBot. To my eye it is tagging images as orphaned when they are not in fact orphaned, Image:Doggy's Angels Pleezbaleevit.jpg, Image:Subpro.jpg and Image:KennethOppel Airborn.jpg are examples. I know nothing about bots, so if I am wrong please unblock it. If I am right, well, that makes a change. Hiding T 20:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Unblock the fucking bot, I know about it, the bot was stopped and Im reverting it. Please read my talkpage. β 20:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Civility, Betacommand. It's a preventative measure. Can you slow down the bot a bit? 2/3 edits per second is a bit excessive. Will 20:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Fix your bot. You do not have a right to run a bot, it is a privilege, nor a right to run a malfunctioning bot. Your anger and your use of foul language is misplaced, even if you might insist on a right to use foul language. Hu 20:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

And Beta, if you use this kind of language after causing damage all over, you yourself will be blocked. Please read up on WP:CIVIL. Crum375 20:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• I've unblocked the bot, the rest of you can sort out if you want to block it again or not. I've got better things to do. Hiding T 20:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

How many times will a bot be blocked before enough is enough? Lawrence Cohen • I support Giano. 20:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Errors happen. They get sorted out. Mistakes are made. They get sorted out. Wikipedians upload images in violation of the law. The bot sorts them out. People get angry. The community sorts them out. Wikipedians go around pouring fat on any fires they see... ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 20:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What s/he said. I think this is between me and beta as much as anything, and I think we can both say it ain't worth anymore than what's already been said. I don't see the need to dissect the bones of two people's miscommunication, ignorance or whatever. Hiding T 21:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

He. But it gives me the excuse to go off and double check. Excuse me for a few minutes. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 21:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

"Errors happen" just doesn't explain this. This bot has a far higher malfunction rate than comparable bots. The bot operator is unresponsive to improvement suggestions and treats legitimate criticism like personal attacks. Haukur 21:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, I gave as good as I got, if not worse, so I think we can stick the civility in the bin. Beta has had to revert a number of edits near enough single handedly while everyone else chucked peanuts. I don't think mine and beta's whatever it was should be used as a stick to beat the bot. Hiding T 21:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Since image issues will continue to be a problem, even after the deadline passes, might it be worth investigating if editors could build an open source alternative to BCB? Like right now if BCB breaks, its up to Beta alone to repair it, since its his code and his design. But if there were an open-source bot that could tag images, then a number of editors could monitor the code and fix errors. Just a thought for discussion. Mbisanz 21:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

actually this appears to have been caused by the mediawiki API. I cannot seem to duplicate a false tag right now. /me scratches head and keeps looking. β 21:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I assumed this when I first spotted the error. The bot's previous "errors" have usually been people not understanding the FU guidelines or the bot being on the other side of that weird line between Foundation policy and community tolerance. This was so straight forward, spotted by so many, stopped so quickly and was clearly so "out of character" that it was obviously an API problem. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 21:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what the root cause of the bug is, the fundamental problem is that because the bot was not properly monitored by the operator, it ran amuck, and I notice that several people had to come in and clean up after him or her. Making that many edits that quickly (a couple hundred per minute) precludes proper monitoring. I really don't think it is such a good idea. Hu 22:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Any bot, encountering an error where the API tells it wrong information, will "run amok". It could be ClueBot, or MizraBot or any other bot. But since it's Betacommandbot and (not so) secretly people around here want Misplaced Pages to be another YouTube and not give a rat's arse about copyright, a pile-on appears. If we get rid of BCB, what happens? Do people suddenly start correctly tagging images? Do they suddenly stop uploading clearly marked copyvios? Do we suddenly get some backbone in the community about properly policing "fair use"? Or, more likely, do we just let it pile up until we get a DMCA notice and the WMF decides to pull all "fair use" images? 'Coz you can't have it both ways - it's either police it or get rid of it entirely. There isn't a middle ground that we can afford. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 22:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't get rid of the bot. Operators should properly monitor it and all bots. Hu 22:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Will you stop abusing and harassing Beta? The bot is not writing policy, not enforcing it. It is very stressful for any user to deal with something. Although two wrongs don't make a right, harassing Beta EVEN MORE over some frustration isn't going to achieve anything. Nor threating blocks. Smarten up. Maxim_(talk) 23:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Add a stop button to the bots' page, as per other such bots. That will help stopping the bot when needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Legal Threat

Here. She appears to be Sasha Grey. This does not appear to be her first threat. I would warn her but I think since this involves a BLP, I will let an admin handle it as I am not sure how WP:DOLT figures into all this yet. spryde | talk 20:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

From July when the user was new, AFAICT, so I'm not going to block. I've blanked it instead and left a nice-but-firm message to say that help is available if asked for, but that restating the threat will lead to a blocking. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 20:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I wound up there playing Connections starting with Recent Deaths that had Emily Sander and through a whole bunch of Porn and voila. Sometimes I have no clue how I end up on parts of Misplaced Pages. spryde | talk 20:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Please don't block her, or even threaten her, the Misplaced Pages:Don't overlook legal threats essay is quite right here. It's not proven, but she very likely is Sasha Grey, and she wrote that on her user page specifically after she was in a rather heated conflict with someone about posting very personal information on her article, back in July. That statement was actually a disclaimer, that she wasn't going to be making any more legal threats, after coming a lot closer to them. By the way, the article personal information thing was settled; she still has some issues with some mediocre photos of her on Commons, but that seems to be much less of a heated issue. By the way, putting a potential double-entendre about showing puppies on the talk page of a lady in her profession may not have been the best idea... 8-0 --AnonEMouse 22:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of editing the statement on her talk page to be a bit less threatening. Hope that's all right. --AnonEMouse 22:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Um, I specifically said that I wouldn't block her. I specifically mentioned that the "threat" was old. And I specifically offered her help but told her not to make legalese statements in future because it didn't help. Please don't wave WP:DOLT at me because that essay itself, used in this way, has a chilling effect on free editing. As to her profession (whatever it is, I haven't looked) vs my signature, well, if she - or you - are that touchy (and are reading something into my signature that isn't there) then I have two words that don't break the spirit of WP:NLT but certainly do break the wording of WP:CIV. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 22:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

(added after ec)No, it certainly is not. Revert it. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 22:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've reverted it and am not best pleased with you, AnonEMouse. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 22:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can guess you haven't read her article. Please do. While I won't redo my edits of your comment, I would like you to consider the fact that she may be rather touchy, and would encourage she be granted a bit more leeway than you would grand another editor in this specific matter only. For us, editing the article is no big deal, it's one of two million. For her, this is her life, and it's not the easiest life. --AnonEMouse 22:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

<---- Well, I hate to try yet again to get this through to you but I specifically said that I wouldn't block her. I specifically mentioned that the "threat" was old. And I specifically offered her help but told her not to make legalese statements in future because it didn't help. Policy would have allowed me to block her there and then. Common sense allowed me to not do so, remove the threat and offer to help her whilst warning her of the dangers of threatening to sue contributors. DOLT would seem to be requiring me to fall over backwards offering to help someone who is making legal threats. That's a blackmailer's charter and the chilling effect - I mention it again because it is very important - of legal threats and now of the (over)reaction to DOLT is making this place suddenly very cold. There would appear to be no right place to stand on this, so instead of acting on concerns about legal threats, I will now let them stay and do nothing. I'm sure that helps someone. Perhaps in Trenton, New Jersey? ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 22:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I had reported this months ago, but the admins decided to ignore it then, so you can't blame her for not removing it. Jackaranga 22:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Note I said nothing about letting the actual lawyer comment on her user page stay and do nothing; I didn't restore it. I just hoped you would not write to her how otherwise you would be considering blocking her for it; she hasn't mentioned a thing about lawyers in 4 months. But we're veering now, the threat is gone, which is the important part, that we chastize her about it is a shame, but not fatal. I'll let it drop. --AnonEMouse 23:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

WHOA! Timeout guys/gals! Redvers made a simple statement about her userpage and nothing about the previous incident. Look at the history of the user page for confirmation. I mentioned the previous incident as I did not see it handled at that time (and if it was handled at that time, she would have been blocked straightaway). I think doing a quick note about WP:NLT and then waiting for a response is a perfectly valid way of handling it. And for the record, I interpreted her use of the lawyer statement after she reverted her page as an extension of the previous threat. spryde | talk 02:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Really, really advanced new user (day 8)

Third edit, six days ago, was to post "This is my user page, I am just going to be a helpful editor making changes when required!" and the next day posted "Dear administrator.... help!!! I need to know how to be able to add the edit option to my pages". So - brand new editor, right, usual newbie question.

Except (the same day) asked about using templates for stubs, started creating redirects, participated in RfD, and started doing CSD postings, including using subst on templates to notify editors.

And now is using Twinkle (JavaScript) to revert BetacommandBot edits. Day 8. For an editor who appeared so clueless on day 3, very, very unusual. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 20:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

True. I learned the basics as an anon and even after I registered I still made some boneheaded mistakes. I would watch and see if anything really nefarious happens. spryde | talk 20:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's assume good faith for now, and pretend he ported himself from another Wiki, or is an old "good" user who decided to vanish. No harm remebering this rapid learning though, if any problems arise in the future. Someguy1221 21:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

AGF. I told him how to rv using Twinkle on IRC. Will 21:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Then you think that his labeling of Betacommandbot's edits as vandalism is correct? And that reverting valid fair use tags is also correct? Corvus cornix_talk 21:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, my fault. When you need to revert 750 edits, rollback->comment is too slow. (and any malfunction is technically vandalism, either by tag abuse or vandalbots) Will 21:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Why does he/she need to revert 750 valid tags? Corvus cornix_talk 21:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You're out of the loop, Corvus. Between 20:13 and 20:19, bcb went on an orphan tagging spree on many used images. About 750 images in total. Will 21:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

They may have been orphans, but they were still invalid FU's, at least the last one that Thehelpfulone reverted didn't have a fair use rationale. Corvus cornix_talk 21:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Add the FUR tag back on then. Will 21:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

DYK update needed

Looks like the DYK update is about four hours overdue. --Kralizec! (talk) 21:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, why is this an incident every time it's overdue? Someguy1221 22:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Because we don't have enough people doing it. I would do it, but I need a basic tutorial first.--293.xx.xxx.xx 11:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Cannot edit

Help? Every time I try to add an edit to Talk:List of Space Marine Chapters I get the following:

This is a talk page. Please respect the talk page guidelines, and remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes ().

The spam filter blocked your page save because it detected a blacklisted hyperlink. You may have added it yourself, the link may have been added by another editor before it was blacklisted, or you may be infected by spyware that adds links to wiki pages. You will need to remove all instances of the blacklisted URL before you can save. Blacklists are maintained both locally and globally. Before proceeding, please review both lists to determine which one (or both) are affecting you. You can request help removing the link, request that the link be removed from the blacklist, or report a possible error on the local or global spam blacklist talk page. If you'd like to request that a specific link be allowed without removing similar links from the blacklist, you can request whitelisting on the local spam whitelist talk page. The following link has triggered our spam protection filter: http://s4.invisionfree.com Either that exact link, or a portion of it (typically the root domain name) is currently blacklisted.

Return to Talk:List of Space Marine Chapters.

I don't understand what it's asking me to do - I'm not adding any links (external OR wiki), just text asking for a citation. Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 22:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A link was added to the talk page one and a half years ago that has since been blacklisted. I have just removed it; you can edit the page now. Cheers. Someguy1221 22:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Cheers. I looked for the link and couldn't find it, hence my confusion.

Please mark as resolved. Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 22:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:W.marsh speedily closing Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Emily Sander

This AfD nomination was speedily closed only 11 minutes after it was posted. This action seems premature and heavy handed. What is the harm in letting the AfD take its normal course, and allowing WP contributors to comment? There are clearly some editors who believe this person to be non-notable, and they are entitled to have their voices heard. User:W.marsh had earlier contributed to this article, so he may not have come to this decision from an entirely neutral perspective. WWGB 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd have closed it as a clear speedy keep at that point too, so it's not that controversial a close. If she become just another statistic (ie, her 15 minutes of posthumous fame is up quite quickly), then an AfD would be appropriate in a month or so. I'd bet on that happening and the article being deleted. Just not at the moment whilst it's news.

And W.marsh's last meaningful contribution to this busy article was about 23 hours ago and even then was just tidying up, so I don't see much of a conflict of interest.

Nevertheless, you can (a) take your concerns to the article's talk page or (b) take the AfD result to deletion review for further consideration or (c) take your concerns up with W.march on their talk page . ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 23:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with W.marsh's closure of it, and you have about as unneutral point of view bringing the issue up here as he did closing it since you started the AFD. It's clearly a notable topic right now and I don't think your point of view about it was very convincing honestly. Two speedy keeps on the AFD from one good-faith contributer and one administrator should tell you that your wrong. — Save_Us_229 23:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I just don't see why this can't wait a week or two until talking about the long-term importance isn't just pure speculation. I thought an AFD now would be drama with a predictable result (a keep after 5 days of sound and fury). So I ignored all rules and avoided a process that would just get people riled up with no useful result. If admins really think an AFD is needed this very minute, I don't object to being overturned. --W.marsh 23:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the close, easily the most high-profile murder case in months right now, if nothing else happens, relist in AFD in the future. This is a Secret 23:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess I spoke too soon... I've been overturned. Drama here we come. --W.marsh 23:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Disrespective attitude to colleagues both in AfD and here are duly noted. `'Míkka>t 23:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Your being just as disrespective Mikkalai, you can stop hammering him anytime you like now. — Save_Us_229 00:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Premature closure reverted as abusive action of POV pushing. Belengs to the sister project Wikinews. Shall we pump each and every newspaper story into wikipedia? This is encyclopedia, not newspaper aggregator. `'Míkka>t 23:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

POV pushing? You have no idea what my POV is on the non-policy issues. Please don't make personal attacks. --W.marsh 23:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Your closure without any solid reason is pushing your POV, without hearing the community on the issue. IMO you are demonstrating a misunderstanding your position. `'Míkka>t 23:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

"demonstrating a misunderstanding your position" doesn't even make any sense. I can't respond to this. --W.marsh 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, let's continue teh drama for 5 days, maybe 7 if were lucky! — Save_Us_229 23:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Mikkalai, please drop the confrontationalism, the aggressive tone and the accusations. They aren't helping anyone. ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 23:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Teach your buddy manners first. There would no drama in the first place if he admitted his mistake without irony. (see the state of the AfD now. Hardly a snowball keep.) `'Míkka>t 00:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

So I'm... whatever slurs you've made about me so far... for wanting to speedy keep without enough discussion, yet you argue to speedy delete on the same amount of discussion? Isn't that the exact same argument you blast me for? --W.marsh 00:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you think quietly what the difference is between your actions and mine. If you don't see any, then you should not be allowed to be an admin. `'Míkka>t 00:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Cool it everyone. I've absolutely no idea how anyone thought this was a speedy keeper, there's no basis for that. Bad call. But that aside - let's talk this out for 5 days. And let's debate the substance not each other.--Doc 00:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Well said. W.marsh closed prematurely, it's been relisted, and that's all that needs to happen here. Please keep future comments in the proper location - at the AfD - and civil. Tijuana Brass 00:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• I've got a great idea, listen. All these problems we have with confusing notoriety for notability, and being unale to establish the long-term influence of someone briefly in the spotlight could be solved at a stroke if we had a site for news material, distinct form the encyclopaedia. We could call it something like Wikinews. Guy (Help!) 15:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposal of a ban on Bobby Boulders (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello. For most of vandal fighters, we know who Bobby Boulders is. He uses MySpace and other means of the internet to encourage people to vandalize Misplaced Pages and advertise for the "ISV" (International Society of Vandals). He has around 40 sock puppets (1, 2), although some people vandalize with him. I would like to propose he be banned for the reasons I have stated. Thank you. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 23:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• I've reverted and blocked a number of this joker's accounts in my time. I assume that this formality isn't even necessary, since no reasonable administrator is remotely interested in letting his idiocy continue in any manner, especially by unblocking any blocked socks. For what it's worth, I fully support a site ban. — Scientizzle 23:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that, as socks or acolytes are discovered, they're blocked. So at least a de facto ban exists already. What more can reasonably be done? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A community ban is only "no admin is willing to unblock this user" and since actually no admin is willing to unblock this user, for obvious reasons, ergo he is community banned. Unless I'm missing something? ➔ REDVEЯS would like to show you some puppies 23:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Tagged as banned, per this thread. — Save_Us_229 23:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Banned indeed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Endorse ban for his continuous, ideosyncratic behavior on-and-off wiki. This doesn't require discussion, really. He is indefblocked, and there is no administrator on the website who is willing to unblock. Except for one-time, consistent vandals, this is pretty much a de-facto ban. Maser 03:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Seicer

Every edit I make User:Seicer has to change it. He constantly keeps bothering and intimidating me. He acts like he is god. Seicer has constantly been in numerous disputes with other users. It must stop --Jdlddw 23:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It appears this dispute is over this I presume. I reviewed the contents of your talk page (which you happened to remove) and it appears he was not intimidating, bothering, or trying to act like a God as you claim. I would suggest talking to the editor in a civil manner about what his concerns are on the article and why he continues to make changes, and if you two aren't able to settle it then, then please come back here with diffs after making an attempt at trying to figure what the problem is and minus the uncivil and near personal attacks attitude of yours. — Save_Us_229 23:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution is a the proper avenue for conflicts such as this. This noticeboard is not as well suited for mediation. — Satori Son 23:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I looked at Jdlddw's last edit to South Charleston, West Virginia, and he had changed "Kanawha Valley Regional Transportation Authority" to Transit authority. Since the KRT website says Transportation I am drawn to wonder how accurate the rest of the edits were. A quick look at suggests that personal opinion salted with links of non-obvious merit may well be the problem here. Guy (Help!) 14:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Jdlddw, you should leave a notice on my talk page if you open up an ANI case about me. I only found out because I keep this page watched. I don't revert all of your edits, only edits that are factually incorrect or where inappropriate page moves. And please don't delete other user's comments on people's talk pages. Regarding edits of yours that I _did_ revert, which were statistically few to the amount of edits you _do_ have,

* Sorry, your page moves at Yeager Airport and Tri-State Airport were made without consensus were reverted because they are factually incorrect. You cited no source for your change and all the sources that are currently provided state otherwise.

* This edit on South Charleston, West Virginia is more appropriate per WP:MOS, removes dead/duplicate links, removes personal opinion and original research and is structured correctly per WP:USCITY.

A warning is not intimidation, and you should use that as a method to edit correctly on Misplaced Pages. Gain consensus on controversial edits or page moves and be bold in editing but ensure that it is well within appropriate boundaries. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Jajouka/Joujouka

1. 14:28, 30 November 2007 (hist) (diff) Category talk:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of BKLisenbee‎ (→sock blocks - added information on total disagreement and smearing tactics by user frankrynne & opiumjones_23)
2. 14:23, 30 November 2007 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Frankrynne‎ (→Lisenbee - This user has been told by administrator FayssalF not to use full names, even last names, only usernames.)
3. 14:22, 30 November 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Frankrynne‎ (→Incidents reported to ANI - added comments from userr BKLisenbee)
4. 14:00, 30 November 2007 (hist) (diff) m Master Musicians of Jajouka‎ (→External links - POV link removed, the only controversy was stirred up by the user who put it there.) (top)

If this sites' own admin will not engage then I must state here formally ..................deleted but acting upon...................... This would really be as to this site rather than Kenneth Lisenbee. This is causing harm and damage....please regulate.

opiumjones 23 00:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:LEGAL. If you make legal threats, you will be blocked from editing. I hope you will retract the threat, or else admins have no choice but to block you. Corvus cornix_talk 00:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I must state that admins are doing nothing for my legal rights and as there is a BLP issue it is in fact this sites obligation to protect me. this issue has been aired frequently and often so please seek advise before blocking. I have amended my comment to state that I will seek advice which I feel you can not deny to a wiki subject of article re BLP etc

opiumjones 23 00:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

To be quite blunt, you have no rights on Misplaced Pages, only privileges, and I would amend the entire section about seeking legal anything otherwise I'll see to it that your blocked. — Save_Us_229 00:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

opiumjones, it's not clear to me what you're asking to be done here. I'm not even sure what it is specifically that you're upset about. Could you be more specific about what guideline of WP:BLP you feel has been broken and what course of action you've already tried to remedy the situation? Brevity would be appreciated. Tijuana Brass 00:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

mediation procees by User:FassalIF etc see User:FayssalF/JK plus much more archived on various pages for tyhe last two years .

opiumjones 23 00:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC) Why is it that a legal threat gets admins involved where an admin informing this page of legal issues gets igniored????? Have deleted the direct threat but am proceeding as indicated unless someone here on this admin board does more to sort

opiumjones 23 00:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Have just received some advice and you are responsible for this site's content

opiumjones 23 00:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

OOOk -- don't want to jump the gun here, but that last statement seems to be straying into legal territory again. Its not taken at all lightly and you will get blocked. You'll notice that someone has already tried to help you resolve the issue; try working with Tijuana Brass (or I would be happy to help) to resolve the problem instead of continuing this line of discussion which doesn't look like its going to end well. Shell 01:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I have indef blocked Frankrynne, per his continued legal threats. Despite his claim above to have withdrawn the threat, User talk:BKLisenbee continues to read "Further defamations of either myself or others associated with me will result in legal proceedings.", which really couldnt' be clearer. With regard to unblocking: personally I will never unblock this user, as I consider legal threats to be an attempt to intimidate other Wikipedians; I appreciate that WP:LEGAL and the apparent consensus differ, so I defer to the community's collective judgement. I would suggest that User:FayssalF be involved in any decision to unblock, based on his experience of this matter. In the meantime I have referred Frankrynne to OTRS. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, I have told Frankrynne about OTRS and suggested that, if still aggrieved (he is), he mail them. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Frankrynne has been unblocked now stating that he rescinds all legal threats. If they continue, he has been warned that the block may be reinstated without a removal again. Regards, — Save_Us_229 02:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

December's WP:PT

Hey; I think I managed to create December's protected titles page, but I'm not entirely certain I did it correctly. Could someone please double check me? — Coren  00:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks. Tijuana Brass 00:23, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Cross-space link problem

The deletion (and salting) of Talia Madison (and related names) has been endorsed at DRV twice now, see Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 October 19 and Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 November 24. User:KingMorpheus is intent on adding a cross-space link from a draft in a userspace sandbox to a mainspace article see here and here. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 01:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

How about asking User:KingMorpheus to remove all the redirects from mainspace articles that point to User:ThisDude62/sandbox? If he declines, then ask the DRV closer, User:Carlossuarez46, to delete the draft. (The draft is only there to fix problems pointed out in the AfDs and DRVs). From his comments in the DRV, it sounds like KingMorpheus doesn't perceive any sourcing problems at all in the article. A number of people with wrestling expertise joined in the AfD and !voted for delete. EdJohnston 03:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Cross namespace redirects are a speeedy deletion criteria. It is transparently obvious that wikilinks in article space should not go to user space. If the user doesn't remove them himself, someone else should do so. GRBerry 04:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Help me, I'm being stalked

User:Prester John (talk · contribs) is following me from article to article, reverting content that I've added, or deleting others' content after I edit an article.

This has all been happening in the past hour or so:

02:25, 1 December 2007 1981 Springbok Tour (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Reverted my edits. Prester John has never previously been to this page before a few minutes ago.

02:23, 1 December 2007 Malcolm Fraser (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Removed content I had added about 'Springbok aircraft'. Prester John has never previously been to this page before a few minutes ago.

02:16, 1 December 2007 Mike Carlton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Removed others' content after I edited the page. Prester John has never previously been to this page before a few minutes ago.

01:50, 1 December 2007 Parliamentary prayer group (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Reverted content I'd added. Prester John has never previously been to this page before a few minutes ago.

23:57, 30 November 2007 Joe de Bruyn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Prester is edit waring, and reverting my content. Prester not been to this page before I went there a week ago.

23:55, 30 November 2007 John Stone (Australian politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Undoing all my content. Prester John has never previously been to this page before a few minutes ago.

23:42, 30 November 2007 John Howard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Reverting my content

23:40, 30 November 2007 John Brumby (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) diff
Description: Removing all my content. Prester John has never previously been to this page.

Please help, as he's going back though the list and deleting everything I've added to Misplaced Pages. Thanks, Lester 03:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I got to him. If he does that one more time, I will have no choice but to report him. Let me know if he bothers you again. Best, -Goodshoped 03:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Just cleaning out the garbage. Lester is a serial pest on wikipedia and it is not uncommon for most of his POV edits to be reverted. articles he creates will inevitably end up at the AFD. Try to debate the edit content, not the editor. Prester John 03:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Look, guy. Do you want me to bring the mediation commitee here? Apparently you two keeps edit warring. One more revert on the same page in 24 hours and I'll report both of you to 3RR. -Goodshoped 03:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The Mediation Committee wouldn't intervene here. Furthermore, I find your threats against other established Wikipedians to be unproductive - please stop. Daniel 04:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Is it just me or is User:Prester John's user page borderline soapboaxing/attacking the middle-east? --WebHamster 03:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I as well sensed some discrimination when reading his userpage. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 03:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright, report to AIV or get him blocked right now. Apparently, he ignored my warnings. -Goodshoped 03:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that his reverts to his user page constitute vandalism, and a report to AIV. The reason why this noticeboard was set up is so that administrators can have some say in a certain incident. This is the correct noticeboard, AIV probably isn't (I'm getting tired of people using AIV as a "report so called vandals to get them blocked" noticeboard). Spebi 03:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

<-- Then what are we to do? He ain't gonna stop. He's just going to keep going and going and going and going... So? And sorry about the bunny. -Goodshoped 04:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

How about both of you take your differences to the talk pages of the respective articles instead of blindly reverting each other? android79 04:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not blindly reverting. I include reasons in edit summaries. Since admins are looking can someone revert Lesters page move at his recent atrocity at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Racial policy of John Howard where he tries to transfer his synthesis to another page? Prester John 04:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit summaries are not used for discussion -- talk pages are. Also, if you weren't attacking the other editor in question, people might be more inclined to believe this wasn't some odd campaign you're on. You have yet to provide any evidence to back up your accusations. I suggest you stop the rapid reverting of this one editors contributions unless you can make a case for those reverts. Shell 04:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Concur with Shell. You are toeing very close to the line on Wikistalking. android79 04:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, Lester, using Twinkle to revert Prester John's edits is not cool, and neither is referencing "per ANI" in your edit summaries. That doesn't make any sense. android79 04:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of chores to do on Misplaced Pages. If you let this user go, somebody else will deal with any real problems. To both parties, when presenting a case to the community, it is most helpful if you use diffs to substantiate what you are saying. See the help articles links I've placed to the right. - Jehochman 04:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

In reply to Android79, yes, in the above listed articles, where Prester removed my contributions, I reverted them. I though I was in my rights to restore them, and I will stop if that's considered the wrong thing to do. Since then, Prester John has gone back and deleted my content yet again, after an admin warning was sent to his talkpage. I have this guy following my deleting my contributions, and the evidence is clear about who is following who. This is happening on articles that Prester John has never been to before the past hour or two. It's horrible. It's bullying. No Wikipedian deserves this. Nobody. It is continuing, and I ask again for Admin assistance.Lester 04:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Actually, it appears to have stopped. Time for you both to use the article's talk pages to hash this out, and bring others into the discussion if needed. android79 04:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Andriod. It's temporarily quietened because I've stopped adding content, and Prester has been successful in removing the content that I previously added, without discussing. I point out that in the previous ANi incident involving Prester John, it ended with Prester promising he would use the talk pages instead of just reverting without discussing. As soon as the Admins stop watching, the reversions continue. When I again add new content to Misplaced Pages, I'll have Prester John deleting it again. It just keeps going.Lester 05:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is thataway. I might suggest an RFC. android79 05:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Prester does nothing but revert, abuse, and disrupt. His contributions page is a good example of that. So is his award on his page, given by a sockpuppet. Timeshift 07:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's accurate to say this is either edit waring or a content dispute requiring comment. What this is is pure bullying and harassment, of a type aimed at stopping me from editing Misplaced Pages. All editors should be afforded protection from this kind of thing. There is no reason any editor should have to endure this. Lester 12:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Help on reporting to Checkuser

61.5.0.125 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been blocked by vandalizing Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch and several articles about characters from Digimon. East718 (talk · contribs) suggested a checkuser for him because it seems to be a rangehopper, because I've also noticed similar vandal edits on Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch and other articles from the following: 61.5.68.126 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 61.5.68.60 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 61.5.0.16 (talk · contribs · 61.5.0.16 WHOIS), Template:Uipser, 61.94.40.105 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). How can I properly report to checkuser in this case because from I have gathered, one false move and I may be blocked (I said "may be" because I am not sure). - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 05:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not necessary. They're all dynamic IP addresses from the same range; it's pretty clearly the same person making the edits from the behavior pattern you've explained. Checkuser compares the IP addresses of users in order to establish if they are the same person — this is already obvious, from the situtation here, and a checkuser would not help you. However, I would point out that blocking won't help much in this situation because of the dynamic IP problem. --Haemo 05:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The affected article has been protected. When an article is "under assault" from a hoard of different IPs, you can request page protection at WP:RFPP. Someguy1221 11:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Meleniumshane90 asking for unblock

I wasn't going to post this here, but this user has severely irked me. He has resorted to legal threats on several occasions (including, "if you change the format of this page, your account will be restricted"). I tried to post a note on his page, but he characteristically just removed it. I ask someone to please handle this unblock (you may wish to see my previous comment: as well). The Evil Spartan 05:39, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I declined the unblock. It was posted without a reasoning anyway. I don't see "your account will be restricted" as a legal threat, though. - Philippe | Talk 05:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Further modifications to the format of this page will result in an immediate contact with Misplaced Pages officials. This is the final warning, harassment is not tolerated on Misplaced Pages, and I have already requested for assistance from the service department. Seems pretty clear cut to me. The Evil Spartan 05:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

That sounds more like "I'm going to tell on you!" than a legal threat to me. — Coren  05:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's how I read it too. Kind of "third-grade" fingerpointing. Now, had it said "modify this and I sue you!" then I'd think differently. - Philippe | Talk 05:55, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not a legal threat. Such would assume an attempt to coerce action through a government judicial system. But the block log says he was trying to harass other users so the block was based on that not a legal threat. I would assume there's more to it that the one statement quoted above, right? - JodyB _talk 13:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

After delving a little deeper into this user's contributions, it seems the core problem is an understanding of the WP:EL policy. He's not a brand new user but he has been around enough to know better. Another issue is that some are reverting his talk page where he has removed previous comments and warnings. Such removal of warnings is specifically within guidelines. I'm wondering if there would be an objection to some additional interaction with this user with a view toward lifting the indef block? I will post at the blocking admins page. - JodyB _talk 14:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Addition of Unsourced Original Research to Jim Kelly article

T-rex is currently reverting any attempts to removed the unsourced statement "Kelly is considered one of the best quarterbacks in the history of the NFL and possibly the best quarterback to line up under center in the short history of the USFL." He has reverted it 3 times after it was removed on the basis that it violates WP:BLP, and refuses to add citations when requested by another editor on his talk page. He instead defends his actions by accusing the other editor of "having a problem with Kelly" . I've not gotten involved in this debate yet as it is beginning to border on incivility, however I'm disturbed at T-rex's loose interpretations of Wikpedia's Biographies of living persons policy, and the fact that he is resorting to edit warring to include this material without attempting to reach a consensus. I believe that administrator involvement might be necessary.--Quartet 06:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how you can call it a BLP violation, unless its untruth would make it derrogatory towards Jim Kelly. In any event, a subjective superlative claim is inherently POV and requires a source. Someguy1221 11:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Dubious edits by User:Maneisis

I've just finished cleaning up dozens of links that User:Maneisis has added to his freewebs website TMM (Music & Movies) (also CSD A7 deleted) and started digging a bit deeper into his other edits. And I'm suspicious that there is some dubious spamming going on here regarding Martin Hernandez. Now, Hernandez is a Mexican actor who appeared in The Devil's Backbone and a couple of short flicks according to IMDb (). I can't find any reliable reference anywhere on the net as to him having a musical career, but see Martin Hernandez (with it's MySpace link to a totally different Martin), Martin (album), Faithful (Martin Hernandez Song) (with it's apparently completely fictional claims of top 10 charting in Mexico and New Zealand), crudely photoshopped album covers Image:Martin album Cover.PNG, Image:U.K single Faithful.GIF..

Looking over User talk:Maneisis reveals a long history of other articles being deleted as hoaxes, as well as many non-free image deletions. Frankly, I'm inclined to just undo every edit he's ever made, but thought I should run this by WP:AN first. --Stormie 07:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Another: see deleted history of Image:Hola Magazine.PNG for another poorly photoshopped fake image that was placed on the article on ¡Hola! magazine. --Stormie 07:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, see edits from 24.205.190.77, appears to be the same editor logged out. Also adding very suspicious claims on Martin Hernandez related topics: - claims an award nomination at the 2007 ALMA Awards, no mention whatsoever on that organization's nominees list (); claims a Best Supporting Actor award at the Ariel Award in 2005, not true according to that organization's winners list (, Spanish, can translate via Google). --Stormie 07:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Still more: Everytime (film) - Martin Hernandez's directing debut, "will be released in 2008". "Official site" is a blank page at freewebs.com. Poster Image:Everytime Poster.JPG is another terrible photoshopping with the same font as the other fakes. Claims to be copyright Fox Atomic, of course their site makes no mention of any such film. --Stormie 08:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

one of his first edits, to One True Thing, claims Ebert gave the film 4 stars and called it "a movie of intense fascination", searching rogerebert.com finds that he gave it three stars and said no such thing . --Stormie 08:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Violanchelo appears to be a real film, but not starring Martin Hernandez. Image:Violanchelo scene.JPG another terrible fake. The claimed source is an article about the production of Violanchelo but no mention of Hernandez and no sign of the "poster". --Stormie 08:39, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• reading between the lines it looks like IMDb may also have been subject to the same hoaxes. As it happens the majority of the Martin Hernandez article seems to be a copyvio from his, apparently only, fan. I've tagged it for a speedy. Putting WP:AGF to one side temporarily this appears to be the product of a young Walter Mitty using WP, IMDb and YouTube to promulgate a hoax. --WebHamster 11:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• I did wonder that. I'm not really familiar with how the IMDb handles contributions but I don't believe they'd be too rigorous about fact-checking someone's "helpful" addition of information. --Stormie 12:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I deleted Martin Hernandez (CSD G12/A7/G4) What to do with the rest? — Edokter • Talk • 12:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I was planning to leave them overnight and then go on a massive cleanup in the morning. ;-) --Stormie 13:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I've put the album, single and film up for AfD. I've removed the mentions of Hernandez from the various articles mentioned above. --WebHamster 13:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

IP POV-pushing

Can another admin deal with this guy , I've reverted twice and refuse to edit war with him. POV pushing on related articles as well, ignored my talk page warnings. ~Eliz81 09:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Resolved, blocked 24hrs for 3RR by User:Stormie (thanks!!) ~Eliz81 09:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, his belligerent attitude and five reverts across two articles made it pretty clear that he needed a cooling-off period. The content he was removing was well sourced, the only POV complaint you could even attempt to raise would be on the grounds of Undue weight, which I would trivially reject on the basis that Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park) dedicates far more space to praise for the soldiers commemorated there than to the resentment of those of the wartime generation. --Stormie 09:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The BetacommandBot Crisis.....turned up something interesting...

I've noticed that alot of the people crying to User talk:Betacommand have problems with their images that many don't see right away. Many have no rationale tags (Image:Shaw Communications logo.png, Image:Yoshi2-title.png, Image:STB-tvchannel-logo.jpg, etc.) And thats the first several images I checked when I started from recent-back. How would it be best to alert these folks about this mistake in a proper way (and not cause Betacommand anymore grief)? --293.xx.xxx.xx 11:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your complaint about some of these images. Image:STB-tvchannel-logo.jpg appears to be properly tagged and the user appeared to be warned about it. What's the problem? — Save_Us_229 11:34, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought Betacommandbot was designed specifically to do what you're asking about using community-designed template warnings. Seems the people (okay, person) noting their concerns on Betacommand's talk page are simply upset at him about the fact that his bot did exactly what it's supposed to do. Not sure it's something I would term a "crisis" :) --jonny-mt_(c)I'm on editor review! 11:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Well you'd be right about Image:CatsRugbyClubLogo.png, an image I uploaded long long ago that BetaCommandBot mistakenly took as orphaned fair use. It wasn't orphaned, but it was missing a proper Fair Use rationale (since such things weren't really thought of three and a half years ago when I uploaded it). I have added one now. --Stormie 12:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it because it was incorrectly tagging used images as orphans. I have no objections to the bot adding the FUR needed tag on the next sweep. Will 12:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Afletch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Resolved – Vandal indef-blocked. Guy (Help!) 13:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

This user has posted a threat to kill two people on his userpage, see diff: , removed today by another editor. There are no constructive contributions from this account. Used today to create an attack page. Accurizer 13:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• This looks like a little ring of vandals who make little or no contribution to the encyclopedia. The threat is conditional and probably not meant to be taken seriously, but still unacceptable. Block the lot of them. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 13:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Use of wikipedia talk pages to prove a point.

The following user, Angelriver is using the following wikipedia talk pages to prove a point Talk:Kim Bauer, Talk:Kate Warner, Talk:Michelle Dessler, Talk:Sherry Palmer, Talk:Audrey Raines, Talk:Tony Almeida and Talk:Curtis Manning. This is by posting identical information on each page which is not suited for an article talk page and should either be not posted at all, whith the sentiment posted on the correct user talk page or posted on just the user talk page.--Lucy-marie 13:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed the comments from all the talk pages and also removed the merger tags which appear to have no community support. That way everyone is happy. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 16:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

John Dandola

Biographical article blanked by JohnDandola (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), with edit summary "Removed by subject due to vandalism & harassment. Do not repost without written permission verified thru subject's web site. Misplaced Pages notified." See diff: Accurizer 13:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Even original article lacks assertion of notability with possible breaches WP:COI. PROD'd. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 14:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

User blanking talk page content.

User:Ankithreya is blankingtalk page sections. despite two warnigns, with instructions about how to create new sections, and , the editor continues to blank talk pages sections, as seen here, and here. the user has been made aware of what they are doing, but continue to do wrong. I suggest a short block to prevent further page disruptions. I will revert out the b lanking done in the last two examples. ThuranX 14:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

48 hour block. Clearly warned and continued blankings. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

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