Revision as of 17:51, 24 February 2008

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Extension of remedies on Derek Smart

I'm requesting an extension of the remedies on Derek Smart. As currently stated, the SPA restrictions expired 5 months ago, the ban of User:Supreme Cmdr (Derek Smart) expires next month, and the ban on Derek Smart and his surrogates editing the Derek Smart page is infinite. Smart/Supreme Cmdr has continuously violated all of the remedies in this case that apply to him, including as recently as creating a role account to push his POV in January, and using IP's which resolve to his office's location to delete content from the page (violation of both his ban, and the article remedy), and harassing users on their talk pages who revert his damage. I'm requesting that the ban on Supreme Cmdr be extended to 1 year from the date of his last infraction, resetting with each infraction. His last infraction was yesterday, so instead of expiring next month his ban would reset with yesterday's infraction, to expire on 2/23/08. Should he evade his ban again, the ban should reset each time, with the 1 year countdown starting over. ⇒SWATJester 07:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean 2/23/09 right? SirFozzie (talk) 15:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Complaint against ScienceApologist

I am making a formal complaint about ScienceApologist because of his comment at . I am co-director of the AA-EVP and an active researcher in the field of EVP/ITC. He knows I monitor the EVP article, and so I am assuming that he intended his comments to me and my fellow researchers as a personal insult. This belief is further supported by a subsequent edit by SA:

Alone, this event could be considered an editor having a bad day, but he has used the same tone many times and his active expression of this attitude in his edits has become an obstruction. At best, it make it very difficult to work in such an environment. There has been at least one judgement against him here .

Can you assist me in finding a way of stopping this direct assault on both my character ad the character of the thousands of people around the world who study paranormal subjects? Tom Butler (talk) 00:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologized, struckthrough the comment, and am trying to move on. What more do you want from me? ScienceApologist (talk) 02:38, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

...WP:WQA#Complaint against ScienceApologist? This is more of a civility issue that has since been corrected by SA retracting the comment and apologising. What more do you want? seicer | talk | contribs 02:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with seicer. If an editor ameliorates a problem, we do not punish. Do you have reason to believe that there will be imminent recurrences for which we must block the user to prevent harm? I don't see it. Also, what are you talking about? The alphabet soup has me confused. Jehochman 02:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I received this comment on my talk page. Stating to someone that they are "making things up" is a very far reach of a personal attack. seicer | talk | contribs 02:53, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for 96 hours for breaking arbcom civility and AGF restrictions. SA only struck the comment after the AN/AE thread was started. Obviously the previous shortened block did not have the desired effect. SA is not allowed to be incivil and then strike comments - the arbcom case requires that SA is careful to AGF and be civil. In reviewing SA's other recent contribs, I noticed other problems I will note here shortly. John Vandenberg (talk) 03:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Two additional aspects of SA's recent contribs stand out - I found many other problems, but here are two that characterise the user conduct.

SA is involved in a content dispute on What the Bleep Do We Know!?, and has been resorting to incivil behaviour, with snide remarks in the edit summary.

Also, on Talk:Parapsychology#Problems_with_the_revised_lead, SA has been advocating that other users comments be "taken with a grain of salt", and has repeated accusations of COI that have been decided by the community to be unsupported at WP:COIN (Archive 19). Note that her user page clearly states her potential for COI - so any editor can evaluate it for themself - SA does not need to use this in order to request that editors disregard her opinions. John Vandenberg (talk) 03:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The edit summary on What the Bleep Do We Know is not a violation of WP:CIVIL in any way. He is not making a comment about an editor ... he's making a comment about a project manager with a BS in Engineering Science that lists his job as "research physicist" in his press releases and bio. "Fraud" would have been quite appropriate.Kww (talk) 03:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I didnt say that edit summary was a violation of WP:CIVIL - I said it was a snide remark, about a living person. How do you know that the person is not a Misplaced Pages editor? It was unnecessarily inflammatory, which lead to an edit war. John Vandenberg (talk) 03:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That edit summary is pretty borderline, and seems to fall well on the side of "direct expression of relevant opinion" rather than "sanctionable incivility". As SA withdrew the inappopriate comment in question and apologized, this block has a fairly punitive feel to it. I'm not going to undo it, but I'd urge reconsideration. MastCell  04:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. In the original WQA complaint, TomButler referred to SA's comments as "the sign of a sociopath" so there's bad blood on both sides of this dispute, and the OP came to WQA clearly seeking for SA to be severely punished (he originally asked for him to be banned from all paranormal articles). SA's comment was clearly not called for, but it was retracted and he apologized, and from what I've seen elsewhere on Wiki, such a comment would not normally be considered a blockable personal attack. Please reconsider.DanielEng (talk) 07:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I think this editor gets too many do overs. The comment was uncivil and he is under an Arbcom restriction. The edit summary seems at first borderline, because he wasn't commenting on an involved editor. I understand John Vandenberg's comment that it is still a personal attack and the editor could be a wiki editor. Anthon01 (talk) 07:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is worth noting the time line here:

• Original comment made at 0237 (UTC) 22 Feb by user:ScienceApologist
• WQA report made at 2238 (UTC) 22 Feb by user:Tom Butler - Tom does not post a notification to ScienceApologist of the report
• user:Randy Blackamoor responds on WQA at 0043 (UTC) on 23 Feb. Tom respons on Randy's talk page 11 minutes later, and then on WQA after a further 2 minutes. Randy responds to Tom on WQA after another 2 minutes.
• Discussions then continue for more than another 25 hours involving user:Leadwind, user:Fill, user:Seicer, user:Wndl42, user:Anynobody, user:Martinphi, and user:DanielEng. During this time, no one thinks to inform ScienceApologist that a complainst has been filed at WQA.
• At 0203 (UTC) 24 Feb, Seicer notifies ScienceApologist on his talk page, and notes this fact in the WQA discussion 1 minute later.
• 13 minutes after notification, ScienceApoologist posts the first of three edits on WQA in response, which includes an undertaking to refactor. It seems that ScienceApologist responded as soon as he was made aware of the report, and had struck the comments by 0222 (UTC) 24 Feb - thus the promised refactoring occurred within 4 minutes of leaving WQA.
• It turns out that Tom Butler posted a complaint to WP:AE about ScienceApologist 1 h 11 min before Seicer notified ScienceApologist of the WQA report. As with the WQA report, Tom did not post any notice for ScienceApologist of the AE report. Seicer notifies ScienceApologist of the AE report 15 minutes after the refactoring is made, and ScienceApologist responds on AE 1 minute later (at 0238) stating that he "apologized, struckthrough the comment, and am trying to move on". In issuing his 96 h block (at 0305), John Vandenberg states on AE that "SA only struck the comment after the AN/AE thread was started", which is technically true. However, John states on ScienceApologist's talk page that his "post on AN/AE mischaracterises your handling of this matter. You clearly did not intend to strike your comment prior to this." This is not supported by the evidence. The comment was struck prior to ScienceApologist being informed of the AE report, and occurred immediately after he was informed of the WQA report. John, you have unfairly judged ScienceApologist's actions here.
• Both WQA and AE procedures require the user being complained about to be notified via their talk page. Tom Butler did not do this in either case, and should be at least admonished for this failure. Depending on how commonly he has previously made WQA and AE reports (about which I have no idea), a more serious sanction may also be warranted.
• It is also worth noting that the talk page where the comment was made appears to have no request for ScienceApologist to refactor, either by Tom Butler himself or by any other contributor to that page.

In other words, ScienceApologist refactored immediately on being advised that a concern had been raised. Tom Butler, as the complaining party, did not request refactoring where the comment was made, nor on ScienceApologist's talk page> He did make reports at WQA and then later at AE, both without notifying ScienceApologist, whilst engaging in talk page discussion of the issue with both Randy Blackamoor and Raymond Arritt. John Vandenberg, you should immediately re-evaluate your block - I think you have made a mistake, and might even have not accorded ScienceApologist the assumption of good faith. You should also do something in response to Tom Butler's actions. Jay*Jay (talk) 08:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

What is at issue here is that per WP:RFAR(Martinphi-ScienceApologist), SA is not supposed to be incivil. Arbcom didnt say "you may be incivil provided that you strike your comments later". SA is supposed to be careful to avoid ABF and incivility. I don't see that. Do you see that?

When I pointed out that SA didnt strike the comments until it was raised here, I was not implying that my decision was primarily based on the fact that he had delayed striking until it was raised here. I was noting that SA's response here was mischaracterising the situation; SA made it sound as if this had already been dealt with, and that raising it on AN/AE was inappropriate. The fact is that it hadnt been corrected before that time.

The real problem is that SA is continually using "borderline" incivility, and it is usually being used to inappropriately dominate an article or discussion. Enough is enough. This talk comment is incivil to every single editor who might believe in that topic. That is no different from atheists going to talk pages about religions and saying that anyone who believes in the religion is a pack of morons. This apology is not good enough. Many other diffs are also unacceptable. Do you want me to list them all?? Talk pages are not an avenue for attacking other editors; talk pages are there to discuss the content, and should be done in a civil manner. If SA needs practise in debating skills, I am sure that the local Toastmasters will be welcoming -- wiki talk pages are not the place to exercise those skills.

The point of the arbcom case was the prevent this type of behaviour. It's not working; the behaviour exhibited at the time of the last block is still occurring. The last block was shortened, so I have been cautious and blocked for the same period as the previous block. The purpose of escalating duration of blocks is to persuade editors to improve the way they interact with others. Hopefully this block will convince SA that the mission to protect the wiki does not supersede the arbcom outcome that SA is under restrictions due to prior bad conduct. John Vandenberg (talk) 09:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: JV's comment "I was noting that SA's response here was mischaracterising the situation; SA made it sound as if this had already been dealt with, and that raising it on AN/AE was inappropriate."

Just so everyone's clear that SA didn't mischaracterize anything, a timeline:

• 00:52, 24 February --TB's original post to AE (this is the time stamp seen at top of thread).

• 02:03, 24 February --Science Apologist is informed of the (1+ day old) WQA thread by seicer.

• 02:09, 24 February --TB Removes post at AE.

• 02:16, 24 February 2008 --SA apologizes at WQA.

• 02:22, 24 February 2008 --ScienceApologist strikes offending part of comment.

• 02:27, 24 February --TB reposts but with original (00:52) time stamp.

• 02:38, 24 February --ScienceApologist re-iterates apology at AE (11 minutes after 2nd AE post by TomButler).

Submitted by R. Baley (talk) 12:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully endorse this block. John Vandenberg is spot on. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't endorse it at all. John Vandenberg seems to be working up a lather from very little indeed. At worst, we have something that merits a warning (and I'm not even sure about that). A 96-hour block is ludicrous. -- Hoary (talk) 14:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not endorse a 96h block. At the most, for using the word "moron" in a term that is not derogatory towards another editor, it would have warranted a warning if that. Most of those involved outside of SA have been those involved either with the article itself, Electronic Voice Phenomenon, or are involved in the Wikiproject itself and have a vested interest in seeing this editor leave the project or become blocked indef. seicer | talk | contribs 14:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

_{Side note: I've left a note on the original poster's talk page regarding the lack of notices given to SA at WQA and AE. seicer | talk | contribs 14:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)}

Taken alone and if the first time SA did this sort of thing, I'd agree, but SA has a long, long history of this sort of behavior of pushing the envelope and prior blocks have not worked, he continues in this sort of behavior. There is also a request for mediation in which he was the only one who didn't agree to it and another where he said he'd only agree if the mediator were a scientist. I'll look up the diffs later today on these. These show his unwillingness to work this out with others in this collaborative encyclopedia. That is why this block is justified. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a great big gap between unwilling to work with others and unwilling to work with people that think their radios are haunted. Perhaps Misplaced Pages could focus a bit on how to get such people to stop editing, and then the rest of us could have an easier time living under the constraints of WP:CIVIL.Kww (talk) 15:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That comment would be offensive to those people and shows that you do not understand that wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia. The way to live with WP:CIVIL is to be civil, not cut out an entire group of people just because they don't agree with you. Not to mention SA's failure to apologize to Annalisa after several polite requests, including from a totally uninvolved admin. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I will first apologize to SA for not notifying him. I had assumed an admin did that and I had no desire to risk his aggressive response back at me. I posted this complaint at the bottom and then realized it was supposed to be at the top. I gather I did that wrong as well--didn't think of the time stamp.

When I tried seeking advice from the etiquette page, I immediately ran into what seemed like a wisecrack. Already irritated that I had to take time away from my other duties, I was deeply saddened that an editor would respond in that fashion--attack the person not respond to the point. The discussion went downhill from there as many of the editors seemed to agree with SA and Blackamoor.

SA has been an abusive editor toward me and others since I began editing over a year ago. I have a hard time believing in his recantation. He later accused me of making up "all kinds of things": "AAEVP is not quite good enough to source this. They make up all kinds of things at their website. What would be best is if we found someone who didn't believe in EVP reporting on the classification scheme (per WP:FRINGE#Independent sources). Barring that, if we could find one of the people mentioned in our article (like Raudive, for example) who used the classification scheme, at least that would be more authoritative than some website that Tom Butler made up one day. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)" . That is identical to saying that I lied. He did not strike that.

Some of you seem to be trying to excuse SA by finding fault with me. There is no doubt bad blood between us, but I am not the one who has decided to ... well it is hard too describe what without stepping over the edge. If you think it is okay to call any group of people morons, then perhaps we have a more systemic problem here. It is obvious that other editors take the lead from those who so easily ridicule others and follow with their own name calling. Are some of you saying that other editors should just get think skins? Don't forget that many unregistered people simply read the talk pages. What do you want them to see? Do you like anarchy? Tom Butler (talk) 17:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist emailed me, asking me to review this block. 12 hours is more than suffecient given the triviality of what he did, that he immediately revised it when asked, and that he wasn't notified about the thread on this page. As such, I've unblocked him. Raul654 (talk) 17:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Waterboarding

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Neutral Good blocked for 24 hours by SirFozzie for disruption.

We have article probation in effect. I believe this edit by Neutral Good (talk · contribs · count) needs to be addressed. Jehochman 20:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not on the waterboarding page, that's on the mediation page. Also, I'm not sure what it has to do with the article probation? I'm happy to enforce the remedy if you can help me understand what's wrong with the edit? ⇒SWATJester 20:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, SWATJester. Jehochman, article probation affects "all closely related pages" and your whine for help here is symptomatic of your overall witch hunting approach at Talk:Waterboarding. Mediation is not a closely related page. Furthermore, I've been called a sockpuppet for TWO MONTHS, I have had an  Unrelated finding and a  Declined decision in separate investigations, I am sick and tired of being called a sockpuppet, and I believe that I have a right to a prompt resolution and an apology from all who have pushed that false accusation so very hard for so very, very long. Neutral Good (talk) 20:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Swatjester, Neutral Good has a history of forum shopping, wikilawyering and disruption. He does not have a free pass to spread waterboarding-related disruption to other pages. Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Waterboarding is clearly a closely related page. When he calls bona fide sock puppet investigations "witch hunts" and rolls out the same tired  Unrelated and  Declined icons, he is battling and wikilawyering. This is not an acceptable way to behave on a collaborative project. Jehochman 20:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

As has been said many times, an "unrelated" result from checkuser doesn't disprove sockpuppetry. Suspicions of sockpuppetry are ultimately based on behavior, and Neutral Good's is similar enough to ByranFromPalatine's that many users think they're the same person. If I were Neutral Good, I'd stop asking for an apology, because I doubt that one is forthcoming. Anyway, I don't think Neutral Good's comment on the mediation page is a violation of the article probation, but I think his persistence in pushing the dispute on the waterboarding talk page beyond any reasonable limit is disruptive. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• More provocation by Neutral Good here: I think we need to clarify that Misplaced Pages does not tolerate this sort of discourse. Jehochman 21:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
• Yet again and again and again Neutral Good violates decorum, and disrupts multiple venues. Jehochman 22:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Neutral Good characterizes Jehochman's request here as a "whine for help". At what point does this user reach a certain net negative contribution value that merits simply indeffing it? Lawrence § t/e 23:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

For example; "Jehochman (talk · contribs) name withdrawn. This involved administrator is already trying to sabotage mediation. Neutral Good (talk) 21:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)" Lawrence § t/e 23:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• Now Neutral Good is misrepresenting the significance of checkuser results. This is posting to elicit a negative response (that's a euphamism): . Jehochman 00:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
• Now Neutral Good is harassing me on this very page, falsely implying I'm violating probation. I feel he has exhausted the patience of the community. Lawrence § t/e 00:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of comments on Talk:Waterboarding

Uninvolved admins, please review this diff: I was announcing a mediation request and the results of an RFCU. User:Lawrence Cohen deleted the entire section, declaring unilaterally in his edit summary, "you have no further need to post here." Please take appropriate action against Lawrence Cohen for this disruptive violation of article probation. Thank you. Neutral Good (talk) 00:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The mistaken subject header aside, I'm not sure why I'm being reported for removing a section on User talk:Lawrence Cohen. I'm certainly entitled. This is functionally harassment now by this disruptive SPA. Lawrence § t/e 00:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Readers should not be deceived by the erroneous heading, which appears to be purposeful disruption (poisoning the well). Any editor is allowed to remove unwelcome comments from their own talk page. User:Lawrence Cohen did not remove any comments by User:Neutral Good from Talk:Waterboarding. Jehochman 01:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me like a block is in order, though I personally don't feel I understand what's going on enough to feel comfortable issuing one. ⇒SWATJester 01:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

No rush. The evidence is improving minute by minute. Neutral Good has just left Lawrence Cohen a spurious block warning. . Jehochman 01:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC) Jehochman 01:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I have issued a 24 hour block on Neutral Good for disruption. SirFozzie (talk) 01:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

A block is certainly in order. Given Neutral Good's history, he's fortunate someone as decent and generous as SirFozzie saw this - 24 hours is pretty light. If this sort of rampant bad faith and misrepresentation continues after the block expires, I'd have no problem blocking him for a substantially longer period. MastCell  01:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo and Serbia

The 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence a few days ago touched off (or reignited) a ferocious edit war on Kosovo that spilled over to Serbia, the reason being that some asserted that Kosovo was an independent state, while others said it wasn't. It is my understanding that Kosovo was already under Arbcom probation at the time (whatever that means), and that Serbia was likely under the same probation, because of earlier assertations along the same lines. Currently, both pages are protected for a week. I'm not at all sure that this was the right thing to do (I am NOT an admin, so don't ask me), and I'm not at all sure that a week's protection is enough (or too much, for that matter). What says Arbcom? — Rickyrab | Talk 06:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you are thinking of WP:ARBMAC, which is the ruling for Balkan issues. BalkanFever 08:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Plus, Kosovo and all related articles have been under permanent Arbitration-imposed article probation anyway, since before ARBMAC. The only thing we can do is to try to use these tools quickly, decisively and judiciously, on whatever article the edit wars spill over to. A useful rule of thumb might be a quick short block for incipient edit warring, and then a medium-length topic ban (like two or three months until the dispute has hopefully abated) for repeat edit-warring offenders, especially those whose talkpage behaviour is either non-existent or openly tendentious. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Ferrylodge

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge: Ferrylodge is subject to an editing restriction indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing.

Ferrylodge is behaving disruptively at Talk:Abortion. The entire thread in question is here. He claims that a quote sourced to numerous secondary sources is taken out of context, stating: "This is about as biased and misleading a statement as can be, but I will not attempt to correct it. Instead, as a harmless experiment, I'll provide the full quotation from Dr. Koop, with citation, and we'll see if the people who control this article have the slightest interest in providing any neutrality whatsoever... I'm curious to see whether anyone else will correct it, or whether they prefer it to be grossly misleading and biased in this and so many other ways." This was his initial statement, before anyone even argued the point. He added: "but, who cares about accuracy, right?"

Subsequent highlights include:

• "Attention Admins... None of the cited sources say that Koop used the word "miniscule" in any letter to Reagan. And when a speaker clarifies a statement, as Koop did here, it is dishonest to completely exclude the clarification. This little incident is symptomatic of rampant POV editing in the abortion-related articles." (The "dishonesty" consists of using the quotes selected by the New York Times Magazine and the New Scientist without appending the additional quote that Ferrylodge mined from the primary transcript of the hearings).
• "It appears to be Misplaced Pages policy for admins to look the other way."
• Repeated charges of "dishonesty", concluding with "Evidently, you prefer the article to be grossly misleading and biased in this and so many other ways."
• "...normal Misplaced Pages rules apparently do not apply at the abortion-related articles."
• (In reference to another editor): "This is entirely typical of you... But there's apparently some kind of policy to let you do whatever you want, so I give up."
• (Again in reference to another editor): "You continue to avoid answering a very simple question: Do you believe that you are entitled to insert whatever you like into Misplaced Pages articles, regardless of how many people object? ...Is it because you're able to succeed with this steamrolling that you continue to do it?"
• "OK, I've had it. You're repeatedly pasting massive amounts of redundant stuff, swamping whatever comments other people make, refusing to respond, and genereally being obnoxious. Goodbye, and I hope you enjoy writing this article to satisfy your every whim and fancy, just like you did the fetus article. And shame on Misplaced Pages's admins for allowing such a travesty."

Ferrylodge has, as ArbCom has pointed out, "a long history of disruptive editing on topics related to pregnancy and abortion." His behavior on Talk:Abortion was clearly confrontational rather than collaborative from the get-go, and as usual produced tons of heat and zero light on a topic that's difficult in the best of times. In view of his long history and his current behavior, I'm asking that the ArbCom remedy be enforced and that he be banned from abortion and its associated talk page. MastCell  19:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Mastcell is not an "uninvolved admin" as specified by the ArbCom decision. Mastcell made this edit at the abortion article yesterday. I reverted here. He has not thanked me for correcting him, nor even acknowledged that the POV editorial he was citing did not use the language which he attributed to it. Anyone can look at Mastcell’s edit, and see that my reversion was correct, and that he was inserting an unsourced statement into the abortion article. I urge people to go see if I am telling the truth about this, by looking at the two diffs I have just cited.

Then today, Mastcell accused me of trying to remove “context” from the abortion article, and I replied to that plainly erroneous accusation here. It is absurd for Mastcell to say that deleting a sentence from a quote provides context, and that inserting the sentence removes context. I urge people to go see if I am telling the truth about this, by looking at the diff I have just cited.

Not only is Mastcell not uninvolved here; he has been POV-pushing and making personal attacks, as demonstrated by the diffs I have just provided. And to top it off, he cannot cite any edit that I made to the abortion article that was inappropriate. Instead, he quotes some colorful language from the talk page, which I admit did become somewhat heated, but was not unreasonable given the circumstances.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

If I were an uninvolved admin, I would have topic-banned you based on your well-documented negative effect on these articles. The reason I brought the issue here is that I am involved and therefore not about to use the tools myself. I have made 1 edit to abortion in the past 4 months (that's as far back as I looked). Ferrylodge's expectation that I "thank" him for "correcting" that 1 edit is exemplary of the problem here. Applying "the best defense is a good offense" by attempting to impeach me here is not likely to be successful - you're under ArbCom sanction for a reason. I'm not interested in the sort of endless debate that these conversations inevitably deteriorate into; I've said my piece, and I'll wait for an uninvolved admin to look this over. MastCell  19:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The complained-of comments don't seem disruptive; he provided the full context of the quote, but it wasn't unreasonable for him to predict the reaction in advance. Was his prediction incorrect? Is he supposed to ignore what he sees, and pretend that the heavy contingent of "pro-choice" editors are editing in a neutral fashion, when experience shows otherwise? I think he's entitled to a certain amount of cynicism, given what he's experienced. -- Zsero (talk) 19:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

"Predicting" that people will be "dishonest", "biased", etc in your initial post is a surefire way to generate conflict and sabotage any hope of consensus. Can we keep this area free of input from Ferrylodge's partisans (or mine, I suppose, were that an issue) and allow an admin to review it? MastCell  19:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Mastcell says, "This was his initial statement, before anyone even argued the point." People can look at the edit history of the abortion article, and see that the matter had already been the subject of edit summaries.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• I notice in reviewing the proposed decision that the restriction version which passed was chosen in favor of an original variant that said "any article or other page". The elimination by the committee of language "or other page" is to me significant. I'm not inclined to take any action based on talk page behavior, and all the diffs above are from the talk page. My review of the article's history does not evidence disruption by Ferrylodge in the past week. I think this report should be closed without action. However, if there is an ongoing pattern of disruptive behavior on talk pages, a case could be made for an expansion of the ArbComm sanctions. I note that there are no prior incidents logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge#Log of blocks and bans, so evidence to support such a request will need to be found elsewhere. GRBerry 19:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that a request for clarification resulted in an arbitrator saying talk pages were included, see Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge#More clarification requested Mistakenly thought Thatcher was on the ArbCom all these months.-Andrew c  20:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Andrew c. I'm not clear about who the arbitrator was. In any event, it says at the link you provided that "I personally would allow more freedom on talk pages, but there still will be an actionable level of disruption." And it also seems that the elimination by the committee of the language GRBerry mentions was significant.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I was unaware that this talk-page issue had come up before. I'll mention Thatcher's comment to GRBerry, but I'm not going to shop it around - if GRBerry feels this is either passable behavior or outside ArbCom's remit, I'll accept that. MastCell  06:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious, Mastcell, does elimination by the committee of the language GRBerry mentioned affect your opinion in any way? It seems possibly significant to me. But in any event, even putting that issue aside, do you think that the behavior of other editors (to whom I was responding) is relevant? Those other editors included one admin who had just inserted a false statement into the article text, with an accompanying footnote to a POV newspaper editorial that did not even support the false statement. Correct?Ferrylodge (talk) 19:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me be very clear and avoid extraneous debate here: ArbCom has identified you, quite correctly, as an editor with "a long history of disruptive editing on topics related to pregnancy and abortion." Despite sanctions intended to curb your behavior, you continue to be an argumentative, tendentious, uncollaborative, and disruptive presence on these articles and talk pages. All of these horribly biased editors and admins whose "falsehoods" you're continually "correcting" are not under ArbCom sanction; you are. MastCell  21:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, though that's not what I asked.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Perhaps it should be mentioned here that Mastcell has requested action from ArbCom in this matter. Ferrylodge (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Eleland (talk · contribs) again

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Nothing to see here. Final warning given to Jaakobou for trying to use WP:AE as a weapon for block-shopping. This flood of reports is getting out of hand. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Arbcom case:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles,
• 'Case Final Decisions' .
• Eleland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1) I've previously posted 25 diffs from 3 weeks after the Arbcom (i.e. more than one per day) of soft decorum and editorial process violations resulting in a warning for Eleland (talk · contribs).

The diffs were directed -- during conflict -- at editors, not content.

Chosen samples:

• "political leaders of a faction you identify with" stricken. 04:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
• "a ]... makes you look rather desperate"
• "your personal crackpot interpretation of the RSes"
• "because you don't like them."
• "looks a lot like just shouting "antisemite!" because something personally troubles you."
• "quote that you're so very, very fond of."
• "achieved via serial POV-pushing" (directed at a single editor)

2) After the given warning, Eleland has again made a similar violation and was blocked for 48 hours'. Eleland then made a pledge of civility, requesting an unblock which was granted.

• "nsulting language is not appropriate anywhere. I will not again... collaborating to improve articles, not attack one another. I will also pledge not to edit... for seven days starting today. I will refrain from any direct communication with Jaakobou for the same period." - Eleland, 00:34, 15 February 2008.
• "Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s): Sounds fair to me." - Jpgordon, 03:25, 15 February 2008.

3) During recent couple days, Eleland has made numerous "indirect" user directed commentary and incivility violations of the Arbcom final decisions.

• "Jayjg... anyone who opposed his fairly ludicrous interpretation" -
• "I can't help but wonder if a person or persons is pushing for the POV of the Israeli extreme right" -
• "Sidelines about incivility (or whatever) will not distract from the real issue here... Benjamin Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman do not hold "veto power" over our presentation of facts in this encyclopedia. Nor do their adherents." -
• "I'm aware that there are far worse Israeli right-wingers than Netanyahu. Some of them edit Misplaced Pages." -

Eleland's approach suggests he purposefully makes personal attacks that are "vague" and "indirect". It has been the same pattern when he previously had the audacity to "indirectly" suggest I was a war criminal or when he made an old apology that looked more like mockery; and I note that it hasn't even been the pledged 7 days since his first block was lifted. Jaakobou 02:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit that I violated my pledge not to communicate directly with Jaakobou. I forgot it. I do find it interesting that he waited until he had drawn me into a talk page conflict, without making any attempt to remind me, and then posted to WP:AE once he had accumulated a bit of heated dialogue. In any case, if this means my original block needs to be reset, then reset it. I should have taken more care to follow the conditions I volunteered for myself.

First, I'm not sure why Jaakobou chose to cite his earlier "25 diffs" against me. Those diffs were liberally padded with totally innocuous edits, clumsily contextomized, and the whole complaint was dismissed as (almost) totally without merit. No surprise there; his first diff contains my shocking and offensive request that Wikipedians "please, don't tell us what you personally believe, or what notable political leaders of a faction you identify with believe, unless you are able to present credible scholarly sources which endorse those beliefs specifically." Horrors!

I don't know whether Jaakobou is really affronted by this type of simple, reasonable, policy-based commentary, or if he's deliberately quote mining in bad faith, but either way it's getting very tiresome. Look at his bizarre "apology that looked like mockery" claims; that was manifestly a sincere and heartfelt mea culpa, but he's constantly posting that diff as if it's evidence against me!

Likewise, Jaakobou's claim that I stated or implied that he was a war criminal is a simple falsehood. The only statement I made about him was that he is an IDF member; I do not know whether that is the case, I should not have said it, and I withdraw the claim. I stated, correctly, that Jaakobou would not answer questions about whether he was involved in a particular IDF operation. Jaakobou has maliciously tied together the claim about "how destructive actions are" to the IDF member issue, but the full quote makes it clear they are totally separate:

Yes, yes, I have noticed that you like to complain about incivility instead of addressing substantive issues. I find your need to see yourself as a helpless victim, unjustifiably targeted by hostile forces, regardless of how destructive your actions are, to be fascinating If you remove material with no justification, or with no more than a passing reference to some TV show you saw on Israel's equivalent of the Discovery Channel, you'll face this type of response. Two cases in point would be your insertion of the term "Big Jenin Lie" in boldface to the lede, and your original research claims of accusations of "genocide" when that term only appeared once in all of the sources you provided.

Now, on this particular dispute, which occured on Talk:Palestinian people: A review will show that Jaakobou arrived independently at a novel interpretation of the sources, edited the article to reflect this, and then refused to listen to reason when called on it. He wanted to say that the largest Palestinian population (actually, the "majority") is in Jordan, and not the Palestinian territories, because he believes that they are "artificially unified." Well, he's welcome to believe that, but that's not what the sources say. I provided a survey of staunchly pro-Israel sources (Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Jewish Virtual Library, Yediot Ahranot,) all of which list a population for the West Bank and Gaza in the "artificially unified" fashion. He simply ignored them.

Jaakobou's approach suggests that he starts spurious disputes through questionable editing, sustains them until the point where people lose patience and object pointedly POV-pushing, and then cries "j'accuse" over incivility. It also suggests that he uses intellectually dishonest methods in an effort to secure blocks on his opponents in content disputes. <eleland/talkedits> 03:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention. It was actually Jaakobou, not me, who broke the "no direct communication" provision; shortly after I was unblocked pledging not to talk to him, he started a discussion on my talk page. He was trying to claim that Zionism did not originate in the late 19th century, and that his sources supported this. His sources said that Zionism originated in the late 19th century. I called him on this, he dissembled and made vague accusations about me. I realized what he was doing and blanked the discussion. It looks like he later found a better way to bait me. <eleland/talkedits> 03:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Eleland, just because you believe something to be false and I believe it to be correct does not mean I am practicing in "intellectual dishonesty"; and it certainly doesn't give you justification to make "indirect" suggestions that I'm far worse than extremist right winged politicians. I already gave you a polite request that you stop with these comments, but you've ignored my request and practically dared me to file a complaint. Jaakobou 03:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

eleland

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Sour grapes after the report below (putting it bluntly). Nothing doing here. Moreschi 09:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• "This user's contributions consist almost entirely of contentious reversions on Israel-Palestine articles, often accompanied by hostile personal commentary" - Not true. "eleland" is pissed of because I submitted his "Israeli Occupation Forces" redirect to RfD.
• He has been bothering me and stalking me for quite a while.
• He's trying to get me blocked due to the fact that my opinions differs from his.

To "eleland" - stop stalking me and stop bothering me. I don't want any kind of connection with people like you. You seriously need to grow up and I won't even bother going over the infinite number of unjustified POVs you've edited into articles. I'm not interested in any kind of discussion with you. Radical-Dreamer (talk) 22:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Number 57 (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Much as I hate to disappoint, nobody is getting blocked or paroled today (such a shame, after all that). Both parties are warned to play nice with each other in future. Moreschi 10:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

User has violated the Decorum principals, specifically 'personal attack', 'incivility', and 'assumption of bad faith' with the following edit summary and diff:

• "Mr POV pusher himself"
• "the biggest POV pusher around" - пﮟოьεԻ 57, 16:00, 13 February 2008.

Requesting a retraction and apology or administrative action. Jaakobou 16:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly not going to apologise. I might have WP:AGF a year ago, but your contributions make it quite clear that you are a POV pusher; as evidenced here. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The Arbcom ended a month ago with no action taken against either of us. I believe that bad faith assumptions and personal attacks are detrimental to the Israeli-Palestiian articles and to the project in general. Jaakobou 16:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There was no action taken against me because I wasn't an involved party, and I have no idea why there was no action taken against you given the weight of evidence provided my myself and several other editors. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your link is misleading as you were certainly mentioned in the presented evidence but this is entirely germane to the reason I posted this complaint. Jaakobou 16:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Only by yourself in an attempt to discredit my evidence against you, and in passing by two editors, one of whom noted my response to an RfC, and another who noted that pro-Israeli editors attempted to bring down my RfA. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea on how your comment relates to this complaint about a personal attack, but I'd be interested in resolving the old disputes and avoiding future similar attacks in the future. I think the best solution would be a retraction (and maybe even an apology) so that we can move forward, but I don't see that you're interested in leaving the past in the past. Jaakobou 16:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd be willing to forgive and forget, but whilst you have reduced your bias in the article space, the fact that you're complaining about Nickhh's perfectly legitimate NPOVing of several articles suggests that there is still an underlying issue. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh is not the person making the "Mr POV pusher himself" comment.

I'm requesting a retraction. Jaakobou 16:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• Links should always be to the final decision in a case, not the proposed decision. The final decision is at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Final decision. I, who read the enforcement definition of "Uninvolved administrators" very stringently, defer evaluation of the situation to other administrators here. Frankly, though, I think the complainant deserves close scrutiny and am certain they are not an uninvolved bystander. GRBerry 17:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
• I also will not consider myself an "uninvolved administrator" by a stringent definition, since I am currently working with Jaakobou on a different Palestine-related article. However, it would seem to me that the operative part of remedy 1 of that case is "despite being warned, repeatedly or seriously fails". 1) Is there evidence that the user has been warned that his behavior is inappropriate? 2) Is there evidence that his behavior entails serious failings after said warning? If so, let's see it, please. - Revolving Bugbear 21:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• I can live with a retraction (and hopefully an apology), but Number 57 just repeats the same "he's POV!!!" vindication of the insulting comment. Jaakobou 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There are only quotes and case decision links here. Both sides please provide pertinent DIFFS. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say that Jaakobou's repeated reinsertion of a huge criticism section to the article on left-wing journalist Gideon Levy ( - at one stage the criticism section amounted to more than two thirds of the article's length) was a clear violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight, and thus a good basis for pointing out that he is a POV pusher. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My complaint here

• per '"Mr POV pusher himself... the biggest POV pusher around (which is why I want you banned from Middle East articles)"'

Has nothing to do with a months old argument from October that Number 57 has etched to his memory (similar opposite examples exist but are germane). Number 57's old notes only show that he is an involved admin, who refuses to let go of very old disputes, and therefore should not pertain to be neutral.

On point, Personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith are a violation of the Arbcom final decision and as long as he does not post an ANI or AE notice about recent activity; Number 57 should avoid making comments while reminiscing about conflicts we had months ago.

My request is a retraction (and hopefully an apology) or administrative action.

-- Jaakobou 12:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• Number57-that's from 5 months ago. Anything more recent?
• Jaakobou-you have not provided diffs of your allegations of 57's incivility and personal attacks. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I may be able to help. How about this whole section, written by Jaakobou more or less in its entirety, and last amended only a couple of days ago? Or this factual error which happily meets a POV that suits. Or this, in total breach of a recent RfC? Can I also refer to several trivial and vexatious posts complaining about the actions of other editors on this very page, including this one and the one below? --Nickhh (talk) 22:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I was about to provide this diff of Jaakobou changing an article to state that something in the West Bank is in Israel (obviously breaching WP:NPOV), but Nick beat me to it. пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

— Rlevse,

There is a single recent diff of the POV charges issue I've raised here, and other similar comments go back about a month (Arbcom days) or more.

The diffs presented by Number 57 and Nickhh, are misleading. They pick single edits out of their content based arguments. The "worst" example, Mar Saba, I've already admitted was a good faith error and my error was nicely resolved by ChrisO who corrected it, and actually made a small error of his own which I in turn corrected and all was well:

"thanks for the clarification!" - ChrisO, 01:05, 2 February 2008.

Mar Saba relevant discussion (if you're interested): .

My problem is that Number 57, who is an admin, sees nothing wrong with holding grudges and making these statements (self-justified "the biggest POV pusher around..I want you banned" charges); and he's promoting bad behavior from non admins who are emboldened by his comments. see this recent comment:

• "Get over yourself. It's like dealing with a sexually frustrated and incontinent adolescent." Nickhh, 23:18, 14 February 2008.

I don't see a good reason that a highly involved admin will point fingers like Number 57 did. I believe it is not only a violation of the Arbcom Final decisions but that it promotes similar conduct from non-admins. I've initially requested a retraction since there was only a single recent such comment; but I don't see any sign that Number 57 might scale back. Jaakobou 04:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, how about some more then. Jaakobou's entire purpose of editing Misplaced Pages appears to be to either insert or strengthen negativity about Palestinians/Arabs, or to remove or weaken negativity about Israel. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If my entire purpose is as Number 57 proffeses, then I would not be writing 95% of Haim Farhi, retouching Image:Peasant Family of Ramallah 1900-1910.jpg (used as the main image for all the Palestinian articles) and Image:FatehMilitia.jpg, working to fix problems on Yemenite Jews etc. etc.

I've already shown on the Arbcom that Number 57 has violated WP:3RR and WP:TE himself, and this entire discussion is not about content, but rather violations of the Arbcom decisions, which Number 57 refuses to recognize.

To be specific, this comment is a violation of the Decorum Principals. Jaakobou 11:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

So you have made 10 edits to Haim Farhi; kinda pales into comparison with 182 edits on Battle of Jenin, 92 on Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict and 71 on Muhammad al-Durrah. In fact every single one of your 15 most-edited articles are controversial Israel-Palestinian ones . In reply to your other points (a) I was asked to provide evidence to back up my claim, and (b) in the "evidence" you link to, you only claimed that I violated WP:3RR, so now trying to claim to have shown that I violated WP:TE seems to be a little bizaare (though is in line with your standard attempts to devalue criticism against your behaviour by attacking the criticiser).

Anyway, this will be my last reply to this farce, as quite frankly I have better things to do on Misplaced Pages (i.e. constructively editing articles) than this. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Since a retraction request of the uncivil personal attack was rejected by Number 57, I request some form of administrative action that will hopefully prevent future similar "better things to do on Misplaced Pages" contributions. Jaakobou 12:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

comment - diff numbers say nothing; I've created 90% of the Haim Farhi article on my first contribution. I've also tried to slowly create good changes on problematic articles, and at those days tag-team 3RR was the norm.

Number 57's violation of 3RR shows not only that norm in action, but also how (certain few) admins abused their rollback tools in these edit conflicts while deleting anything that might be construed as pro-Israeli.

Sure, I've had my judgment lapses and made many errors in the (5 months ago past), but regardless, even if I am (allegedly) a POV pusher, an involved admin should not follow established editors to complaints they've made about someone else and bluntly state: "Mr. POV pusher... I want you banned".

I was thinking a retraction could, hopefully, solve this long standing issue fast and the suggestion still stands. Jaakobou 10:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, so it's ok so describe someone as "not neutral" and strongly insinuate that they are POV pushing by saying they delete "anything that that might be construed as pro-Israeli.", but not to actually call them a POV pusher? Hilarious.

Also, you might be interested to know that I also delete pro-Palestinian stuff. The joys of working on Israeli-Palestinian articles! пﮟოьεԻ 57 00:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

"I want you banned"... hysterical right? Jaakobou 01:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

p.s. You are an involved admin who assumes bad faith and makes uncivil personal attacks at the hint that you are not impartial. Jaakobou 01:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting question. Is a calmly stated opinion that a particular set of articles would be better without a particular editor in itself a personal attack? I don't think so. Relata refero (talk) 18:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand. Are you saying that there's nothing wrong with calling someone "Mr. POV himself, I want you banned" while you are an involved editor? Jaakobou 21:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about Mr.POV, but merely saying he doesn't understand why you're still permitted to edit a particular set of articles is relatively mild, I'd say. Relata refero (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not what he said. He did not ask another Admin "why is he allowed to edit on...", he went directly to me and told me Biggest POV pusher ever!... I want you banned!. Thank you for making excuses for him though. Jaakobou 09:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to work out what the limits of civility parole are here. Because, as I dont know the particulars of this particular dispute, I can see that I frequently tell people when I'm convinced they're pushing a POV, and I have even been known to mention to people that certain areas of the project would be better without them. At what point does that become uncivil? Genuine question, as I said. Relata refero (talk) 09:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I might also mention that Jaakobou is attempting to mislead editors by (a) twice incorrectly asserting that I am an involved party on that RfAr - the list of involved parties is here - I merely provided evidence to the case; and (b) appears to be attempting to make my comments looks worse by inserting exclamation marks to them. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)