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Lernayin Gharabaghi or Lernayin-Gharabaghi

Shouldn't there be a hyphen as well? Steelmate (talk) 23:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know Armenian, you tell me. Nagorno-Karabakh is how it is handled in English. --Golbez (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure myself, some armenian speaking people pls... Steelmate (talk) 00:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no hyphen in the Armenian version of the name see wikt:Լեռնային Ղարաբաղ, of course thats not reliable. But the Foreign ministry of RoA agrees. You might have to teach your browser to read Armenian. VartanM (talk) 02:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok Thanks VartanM for confirming that, just wanted to make sure. Steelmate (talk) 04:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

History section

Isn't it way too big? We have a separate article for that, so can we possibly shrink it to include only main events? Steelmate (talk) 14:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Area and Geographic boundaries of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic

As I've mentioned in Talk:Lachin. This article is no longer about Nagorno-Karabakh the region. So when we talk about the de-facto bondaries of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, we need to state the bondaries described in the NKR and Armenia's negotiating position. This is the entire Nagorno-Karbakh Region plus Shaumian, Lachin Rayon (Kashatagh) and Kelbajar Rayon (Karvajar). In terms of are by square miles/km we should do what they do in the Israel article for area and but the area of just the region, put a slash then beside that put the area of the NKR/Armenia's negotiating position above. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 23:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

What is your sources saying the NKR has claimed Lachin and Kalbajar? The map you showed me also included areas like Agdam, Jabrayil, Zangilan, etc. Either all of this is claimed or none of it is claimed. --Golbez (talk) 00:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Rather than trying to prove that they have annexed it, shouldn't we be trying to prove that they have not annexed it? What we know is the following:

1) They hold census data for the Lachin Rayon which they call Kashatagh.

2) They maintain the infrastructure for much (but not all) of the occupied territories.

3) They assert that a Nagorno-Karabakh as an enclave inside Azerbaijan is out of the question.

4) Members of the Government in Armeniand Nagorno-Karabakh seem to acknowledge that they will need to give something back for peace.

I will gather some references and post them here and we can discuss.Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

How do you propose I prove a negative? I have a source saying the NKAO+Shahumian=NKR. You do not have a source that says the surrounding rayons have been claimed or annexed. Of course they maintain the infrastructure and maintain census data, the USA performs similar services in Iraq, but that's not a part of the country. #3 and #4 have no bearing on this discussion, as that's their wish for the end-result, not the current situation. --Golbez (talk) 06:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me ask this, if a country conquors a peace of land renames that land and holds elections and census data and upgrades the infrastructure in that land, isn't it automatically implied that it has been annexed? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Annexation or claiming is an active thing, that is to say, it doesn't happen passively. Just like diplomatic recognition - there's no such thing as 'de facto' diplomatic recognition, just as there's no such thing as 'de facto' annexation. Until such time as it is actually claimed by the NKR or Armenian government, it's part of Azerbaijan, an occupied part. Anything beyond that, like what you're trying to do, is purely original research. --Golbez (talk) 18:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Again if we compare this article to the article on Israel, the article on Israel provides two numbers for it's area. One excludes East Jerusalem and Golan Heights and the other includes it. In terms of annexation vs occupation, the Golan Heights are considered annexed but not everybody recognizes this annexation. The West Bank is considered an occupation. When we compare the occupied/liberated territories surrounding the Nagorno-Karabakh region, would you say they are more similar (visavis occupation vs annexation) to the Golan Heights or the West Bank? Remember also that Israel has never declared that it has annexed the Golan Heights and it has never even used the word annexation with regard to the Golan Heights. It has merely extended its "laws, jurisdiction and administration" to the Golan Heights. Therefore, for the purpose of this article, we should treat the territory surrounding the Nagorno-Karabakh region the same way the Israel article treats the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

"The Golan Heights Law is the Israeli Knesset's law, ratified on December 14, 1981, which applies Israel's laws to the Golan Heights." "The Law, jurisdiction and administration of the State will take effect in the Golan Heights, as described in the Appendix." Give me a source that says anything similar exists for the occupied rayons, or Lachin in specific. The Golan law is pretty much as close to annexation as you can get without actually using the word, and I very much doubt anything similar to it exists in the Caucasus. But if you can show it does, then we can move on. Anything less is original research. --Golbez (talk) 05:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Some support of Lachin under NKR

From panorama.am I have taken the liberty of bolding certain passages

AZERBAIJANI POLITICAL SCIENTIST SAYS COMPENSATING FORMER LACHIN RESIDENTS AN ATTEMPT TO SOLVE ARMENIAN-AZERBAIJANI CONFLICT

Six Azerbaijani citizens, formerly living in Lachin, have submitted a claim to the European Court of Human Rights demanding compensation for damage. The claim was accepted against Armenia and the court decided to discuss the case. Azerbaijani political scientist, Ilgar Mamedov, believes that Lachin is the one of the cornerstones of Nagorno Karabakh conflict settlement. He said OSCE co-chairs report serious progress. Particularly Mamedov refers to Matthew Bryza saying “the sides have agreed on hand over of territories under the Armenian control.”

This statement was followed by the Armenian ministry of foreign affairs saying “until the status of Nagorno Karabakh is decided, the right for self-determination of Karabakh people guaranteed and smooth geographical contacts with Armenia assured, Armenian side is not going to talk about tertiary issues.”

Further, the political scientist deliberates that “if the Azerbaijanies get compensated for their property according to law, they practically lose their right and interest to return to their places of resident. Isn’t this a best solution to settle numerous issues on the table of talks?” Mamedov raises the question. The political scientist also believes the compensations will be funded by international donors under “investment for peace regulation.” “It will be easier to force Azerbaijani to go for concessions on Lachin if there is no claimant for property,” Mamedov says.

More to come... Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing here that says or implies that Lachin is part of Nagorno-Karabakh. It is all talking about what they want or demand the final settlement to be - but at present, it is Azeri territory, acknowledged I believe by everyone, even the occupying parties. --Golbez (talk) 06:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

NKR is not part of Azerbaijan, the NK region is

Grandmaster, wake up, we have two articles now, nothing to be confused about. Steelmate (talk) 08:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Still the territory of NK is part of Azerbaijan, and NKR does not exist de-jure. Grandmaster (talk) 08:19, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, NK de-facto is not part of Azerbaijan... so what? We all know about it. In verbiage that you put it was like NKR is part of Azerbaijan, which is not correct statement. These are the only ways of correctly stating facts:

• NK region is de facto part of NKR.
• NK region is de jure part of Azerbaijan.

or reversely,

• NK region is not de jure part of NKR.
• NK region is not de facto part of Azerbaijan.

Steelmate (talk) 18:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Folks, stop changing the intro that was a result of compromise after many months of discussions. We will have to start it all over again. Grandmaster (talk) 08:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

The before split negotiations did not take the fact of split into account so they are outdated a bit. Steelmate (talk) 15:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It is clearly stated in the article that the region is de facto independent republic, and de jure part of Azerbaijan. Anyone reading this article is aware that the entity the article is about is officially internationally recognized part of Azerbaijan. I see no point of previous revert. --Ehud (talk) 18:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

"officially internationally" Does it really help that much to repeat these terms over and over and over again, thinking that maybe this time it will be hammered into the heads of everyone else reading? --Golbez (talk) 19:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

"the article is about officially internationally recognized part of Azerbaijan." - no, it is not, it is about NKR - the republic, info about region should go to Nagorno-Karabakh.I wonder how much longer this question will be popping up again? Now just stating this fact about NK being de jure part of Azerbaijan, should involve another edit in article about Azerbaijan, saying that thos regions are de facto part of NKR. Steelmate (talk) 20:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, what other option do I have other than repeating it over and over. This is a neutral stance: NKR is indicated as de-facto independent, and de-jure Azerbaijani territory. Just mentioning that it is is a de facto independent republic located in the Nagorno-Karabakh region of the South Caucasus, entirely surrounded by Azerbaijan implies otherwise. I think it is fair enough.

Steelmate, it doesn't matter whether it is about self-proclaimed NKR or formerly NKAO or NK region of Azerbaijan. The bottom line is that it is recognized as Azerbaijani territory. What is not clear here? (Ehud (talk) 20:29, 23 December 2007 (UTC))

What option do you have? Not insulting your fellow editors by repeating the same crap over and over again, treating them like they are incapable of reading. --Golbez (talk)

Dear Ehud Lesar, it matters! It mattered so much that article was split. So please consider those two articles for two different reasons. One about region, another about republic. What is not clear about it? Also I can see your position that when talking about location of NKR we mean NK region then I agree with you. Steelmate (talk) 20:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

As we know, there are de-jure states and de-facto ones. There are 2 aspects of "NKR". 1. It exists de-facto (even though many question even that and see it as a sleight of hand used to cover up the fact of annexation of that territory by Armenia). 2. It does not exist de-jure, as it is not recognized as a state by any other country. If we mention 1 aspect, neutrality requires that we mention the second aspect too. Mentioning de-facto implies that we should mention de-jure too. Grandmaster (talk) 09:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Fact tag on De Jure part of Azerbaijan

If you look at the definition of De jure in wikipedia it means "by law" meaning by international law. If this is to remain in the article, it needs to be sourced. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, de jure is used as opposed to de facto, so we can say - if we use de facto for "A" then we can use de jure to "not A". Steelmate (talk) 04:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Steelmate, the use of de jure vs. "officially" was discussed for months in a very lengthy mediation in 2006. The consensus version, which lasted for a very long time, settled on "df independent, officially part of Az." The reason de jure was problematic is that it has legal meaning, and anything having to do with law is up to interpretation by lawyers (in this case international ones). Whether de-jure unrecognized also means de-jure part of the original state is one such question open to legal dispute. If we are to avoid lengthy edit wars, we need to stick to the consensus wording.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 02:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

"Republic of Mountainous Karabakh" instead "Nagorno Karabakh Republic"

Nagorno means mountainous and the official name therefore should be the "Mountainous" Karabakh.

MosMusy (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Official name should be whatever the republic chose it to be, not you or me, and it chose Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. Look here :

http://www.nkr.am/eng/ , and here http://www.nkrusa.org/ Steelmate (talk) 18:33, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The constitution of the Republic Nagorno-Karabakh states: The Nagorno Karabakh Republic and Artsakh Republic designations are the same. (1.2) .

That means, they're equal. I think Atsakh Republic schould be added in the article (perhaps like this: "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic or Artsakh Republic ... is a de facto independent republic ..."). - Vacio (talk) 15:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Problematic photograph

The image with the caption "Internally displaced Azerbaijanis from Nagorno-Karabakh and the adjacent regions" is, according to the image's page, in the public domain. However, it clearly has been photographed or scanned from a printed book. The reflective glare at the bottom right of the image, and change in tone at the top right indicate the curve of the printed surface. For this reason I doubt if it really is a PD photo: if the photographer really had placed the photograph into the public domain then he/she would have released the original image and not just a scan of a copy in a book. If someone agrees with my reasoning, could they place an appropriate copyright violation tag in the image's page (I don't want to do it myself since I've not done it before and I'm not sure which tag to use). Meowy 17:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I would ask Parishan for clarification, he's the one who uploaded. VartanM (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation needed

Wow, I've never seen another article so densely populated by s.

Territory and admin. divisions of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic

4.400 km2 is the territory of the former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is however 11.458km2 . Please see also Artcle 142 of the Constitution. This should be added in the infobox. Maybe like this:

Territory: 11.458 km2, 4.400 km2

Moreover, NKR has 7, not 6, administrative divisions (provinces):

1. Shahumian (older name: Gulistan/Gyulistan)
2. Mardakert (Jraberd)
3. Askeran (Khachen)
4. Martuni (Varanda)
5. Hadrut (Dizak)
6. Shushi
7. Kashatagh

-Vacio (talk) 06:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Constitution of NKR, Article 1.2
2. De facto administrative territory of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic
3. Territory of the former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast

Armenians have renamed Lachin to Kashatagh but I see no evidence at all that either Armenia or the NKR has claimed or annexed it. You'll need to find a source for that. Also, we need a source for western Kalbajar being part of Shahumian. Or, for that matter, the occupied areas of Agdam being part of those areas. It looks like you've taken a map of the occupied areas and just extended lines, when in reality the NKR and Armenia have not claimed or annexed these, have they? --Golbez (talk) 16:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think those territories are indeed claimed by NKR, first of all because they call them liberated areas. Evidences can be found at the official web-site of the National Statistical Service of NKR. In fact there are 8 administrative divisions, since Stepanakert itself is also a region . The map of NKR with its administrative divisions: . Please see also article 142 of the Constitution , wich states: "Till the restoration of the state territorial integrity of the Nagorno Karabakh Republic and the adjustment of its borders public authority is exercised on the territory under factual jurisdiction of the Republic of Nagorno Karabakh." -- Vacio (talk) 07:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All the doccuments and maps I have seen from "NKR" claims to the former territory of NKAO, plus former (original) Shaumyan territory, which does not have a visible border with Iran, not even with Armenia. For the latter, a corridor is demanded, but no one really knows what and where that corridor will be. For example, one of the proposals on the table (in negotiation process) back in late 1990's was a territory in the North of Kalbajar, not even Lachin. So therefore, at least "official" statements, maps from "NKR" do not show these other territories of Azerbaijan, as described here. --Aynabend (talk) 20:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Posibly you haven't seen all the documents and maps from NKR. The maps and publications of the National Statistical Service of the NKR are the recent ones and they are official as well. Furthermore, we don't have to forget that the borders of the NKR have been changed since its proclamation in 1991. I think its is very clear: NKR is a de facto independent republic, wich borders with Armenia, and the territory under factual jurisdiction of this de facto republic is divided into 8 provinces. While you are speaking about a possible solution of the confict, supposed that the status and borders of NK should be defined and internationally recognised. --Vacio (talk) 14:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Vacio, the republic itself is unrecognised, how can we recognise its statistical service? :-) Ok, if talking seriously - here are the maps from the "official" representation of "NKR" in U.S.A. and some other "official" websites here and here. Also look at what it says about its neigbouring states . Please see the maps and borders. If one day we see the territories you were trying to include here reflected in these kind of maps and websites, then may be we can have them mentioned here at the Wiki as well. You are not a representative of that "state" and you cannot claim on behalf of that "state" more than what its "government" wants publicly. Regarding the "changes" of 1991 and inclusion of Shaumyan, I have mentioned it above. I hope my points are clear. --Aynabend (talk) 18:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The map used on this page is not appropriate, not recognized and is not used by any entity, even by Armenian warlords of Nagorno-Karabakh. It's an original research by VartanM, pushing his own POV in the article and shall be replaced with more appropriate one based on international definitions. Also added CIA World Factbook source, which clearly says that occupied territories including NK are under control of Armenia, no other entity is defined. Atabek (talk) 12:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Atabek, what you pushed without discussion, its the real POV. The map by you is that of Soviet times, unfortunately (and you know it) the some of northern rayons are under Azeri occupation, while Armenians already liberated some surrounding parts of NKAO. So the map by Vartan is discussed and factual, your's is a memory from Stalin's times. Andranikpasha (talk) 13:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Adranik, WP:AGF discussing memories. Also, explain how CIA World Factbook source is supposed to be "memory from Stalin's times". What you call "liberated" are actually occupied territories per UN SC resolutions and opposite point is Armenian POV, thus the neutral source to rely in this case is CIA World Factbook as well as UN SC resolutions. Unless you can prove otherwise with reference, the source and the wording will be restored, even if mediation involvement is necessary. Atabek (talk) 19:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Atabek, the pages you refer to:

1. — this map shows the location of the former NKAO.
2. — says the NKR was proclaimed in the borders of the former NKAO and the Shahumian region.
3. — the verbatim text: Soviet-era borders placed NKR four kilometers east of Armenia, but today Lachin corridor makes the two contiguous.

Thus, they are not contradict to what I've sayed above. The above map is really appropriate, since it is made by virtue of the map of NKR as it's presented on the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of NKR  ! (A smilair map is also used on a.o. the Russian wikiarticle of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.)

I would also ask you to be more polite next; and don't move the issue of discussion: we are talking about adminstrative divisions of the NKR and it's contiguity with Armenia. The fact that CIA or UN SC resolutions call this areas occupied, the fact that they don't recognize the NKR and see it as part of Azerbaijan, doesn't hold back the people of Nagorno-Karabakh to consider their land not to be part of Azerbaijan, and to call this areas liberated.

It's moreover remarkeble that even the NKAO itself had conjugtion with Armenia until 1936.

Anyhow, this article is about the de facto republic, thus we can start from the official websites of this republic to decribe it, weither it is recognised or not. --Vacio (talk) 06:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The references you brought above are from websites of unrecognized entity, so called "NKR", its "representations" in U.S. and Armenia, and obviously cannot be deemed as neither neutral nor legitimate. If you think otherwise, we can invite mediators and decide how that invented map from the page of Armenian separatists in Nagorno-Karabakh is at all supposed to be legitimate, neutral or encyclopedic. Atabek (talk) 08:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

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