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Revision as of 16:58, 18 April 2008

Word of the day
Treeware. noun. Template:IPAEng.
An antediluvian method of publishing information on a portable medium created from processed arboreal macerate, often with decorative covers glossed by petrochemical solids.

"Reginald went to the athenaeum to peruse treeware with the assistance of an informatics professional."

I cleared out the third opinion request list again. 04:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Help me out.

• Take a look over History of early Christianity and Apostolic Age and provide some feedback on the talk pages. Thanks! 06:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
• Contribute some thoughts and feedback to m:Dispute resolution analysis group.

• What I did today archives: 1
• Talk Page archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Alice Bailey

Vassyana, a new editor of the Alice Bailey article has initiated an RfC . Would you be willing to look at the discussion and comment? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Osho

Hi Vassyana, User:Jossi mentioned the other day that you and he had done some work on getting Laozi to GA. I also saw your earlier GA review of Prem Rawat, an article that I've been spending time on recently. I (self-)nominated Osho for GA yesterday and wondered if you might be interested in doing the review, or have a read-through and provide improvement suggestions? Cheers, Jayen466 21:58, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You are too kind

Thank you so much, your thoughts are most appreciated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

On FAs (reply)

I've been worrying away at it for some time. I don't have any particularly helpful ideas yet, unfortunately.

What I have come to conclude is that our current method - "rewarding" individual editors with some form of status for "taking an article" to FA - is part of the problem; with the best will in the world, having a particular individual or like-minded group of individuals working intensively on an article for a fortnight doesn't aid in ensuring the use of a multitude of perspectives and sources. We're all amateurs, but we aim for results superior to individual professionals through the aggregation of perspectives; the way that FAs are managed seems to work at cross-purposes with that basic mechanism. I also fear that MoS-obsession (I stopped observing FACs a few years ago after one particularly vicious and borderline-incomprehensible squabble over the exact form of citation templates, or sub-headings, or something of that sort) tends to obscure actual questions of content.

If there's a solution, it probably would incorporate artificially elongating the process. Relata refero (talk) 18:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm off to do a GA review now, in the hope that it will give me some ideas. Relata refero (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

RfArb

I have not named you as a party, as you have not been involved recently, but given your early intervention with the GA review, you may want to state your comments at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Prem Rawat. If you think that you rather be named as a party, please let me know. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems as though ArbCom will accept the case. I will present evidence and take limited participation in the discussion when the case is opened, after I have some time to collect my thoughts and some diffs. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 18:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

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Blocking consensus, analysis

Here's a big image made by User:Kevin Murray:

• Sample of old new and hybrid CCC Consensus flowcharts.

The normal consensus process is on Chart 1. Some people, however, use a modified process, at Chart 2. (Chart 3 and Chart 4 may not be relevant today.)

Basically, Chart 2 introduces just 2 really new concepts. The first is that large changes should be discussed first; the second is that it introduces a minor bias towards the status quo: "changes should not happen too quickly". If you say it in english, that sounds fairly harmless, right? People think it is a good trade off between efficiency and "safety".

But a closer look reveals that that is not the case! If you actually plot the flowchart, you find that when you modify process thusly, you can get stuck in an infinite loop. Consensus might never be reached. (Flowchart 2 has an infinite loop at "is the result accepted"->"should process continue"->"discuss at talk, 3O, VP, RFC"--->"is the result accepted" )

In reality such loops are not really infinite, as we are dealing with human beings here. At some point in time, one or more parties get worn down and burn out, and just walk away. :-/

Another interesting thing is that in chart 2, several meatball:ExpandScope methods are used ... in the middle of that same loop.

Sure. I think that one or two steps of ExpandScope once in a while might be a part of your normal everyday meatball:HealthyConflict.

But repeated scope expansion in a tight infinite loop? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. And guess what? Interestingly, that seems to be the pattern you see in all sorts of high profile wikidrama. :-)

So by simple systems analysis using flowcharts, we can already predict that certain simple, reasonable looking changes to the consensus process might actually be responsible for a large number of the unhealthy conflict interactions between established users.

--Kim Bruning (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Nifty! Some food for thought there. It does some to indicate where some of the logjam comes into play. As a thought, the "standard process" can be used as an excuse to play mum and pop (venue shopping), which can certainly add to a decline of good faith and to a growth of acrimony. This does not fully account for intransigence and obstruction. However, it certainly seems to point towards some tools which accommodate such ends. Definitely something for the mind to chew. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 19:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Indian Religions

Even after agreeing to consensus, User:IAF is back to his usual mode violating the consensus and the WP:3RR here. --Anish (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Coppertwig and "dab" seem to be handling the situation just fine. I will keep an eye on the article to head off any future edit wars, but the editing conflict seems over for now and others are handling the situation. Vassyana (talk) 18:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... as far as the article is concerned, Dab handled it well. But no one is doing anything about the abusive language of IAF "Jackass, stupid edits et all". Check this out. --Anish (talk) 14:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Informal mediation on Bosnian War article

Hello, I see that you have protected the Bosnian War article. I have suggested some form of dispute resolution to User:Nirvana77, which he seems to agree with. I'm not sure whether informal mediation would work here or if we should go directly to ArbCom. What is your suggestion? RegardsOsli73 (talk) 09:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

A good first step would be to request a third opinion to get an outside view on the matter. You should also ask for some outside opinions and expert assistance from the military history WikiProject. It's an active project with a solid reputation for common sense and high quality. A neutral outside opinion and some participation from members of a well-reputed relevent project can help bring a balance of perspective and put the article on track. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

RfC

I've started drafting a user conduct RfC that you might be interested in here. There's a lot of evidence to locate, sift through and present, so I think it will take awhile to get it put together. If you'd like to participate, please feel free to do so. Cla68 (talk) 06:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Right, now that is ambitious. Relata refero (talk) 19:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Request

Could you do me a favour and look over Two Witnesses? My cruft-alert is beeping like mad, but I think I need some advice with this one. Obviously the reference and the related mythologising and interpretation is notable and encyclopaedic, but am I wrong in supposing that this particular article contains material more suited for many, many others (Christian Zionism, America-Israel relations, Millenarianism, Postdispensationalism (?)), and a large amount of OR-through-sythesis? It has the classic look of the latter, with lots and lots of references, except for the crucial points. Relata refero (talk) 19:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I will look over it a bit more this evening, as I am currently a bit busy IRL. However, taking a brief look, I immediately got a "red flag" impression from the lede being comprised mostly of a large quote from the Bible (as opposed to following WP:LEAD). Vassyana (talk) 19:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I've had the time to read over it and it's most assuredly a SYN'd up mess. Outside of taking the ax to it and starting over again from a stub (Gordian style editing), I'm not sure how to untangle the clusterfun. I'll read over it again and check some sources on Questia and see what I can do to help reform that poor article. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Question

Hi Vassyana,

At Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat/Evidence#Jossi's alleged COI you presented an analysis of evidence presented in Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 22#Jossi COI diffs.

Since this is primarily Analysis of evidence I wonder how you would feel about moving that analysis to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat/Workshop#Analysis of evidence?

Anyway, I'd like to comment on the analysis you presented, but don't want to burden the /Evidence page with that: the section on the /Workshop page seems more appropriate for me to relate to the analysis. How do you think? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to think the evidence page is the appropriate place. The COIN thread was not raised as other parts of evidence (that I noticed). The presentation and analysis of previous discussions is usually typical ArbCom evidence. To my knowledge, replies to evidence (barring long discussions) are usually placed on the evidence page. However, I would welcome the input of a clerk or arbitrator regarding the proper placement of my comments and diffs. Vassyana (talk) 12:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Tx for the reply.

I'd welcome clerk/arbitrator input too, since I've little experience what the primary intended goals are of a "Analysis of evidence" section on a /Workshop page, compared to presenting evidence on the /Evidence page. I used the /Workshop section extensively now - no idea whether I'm heading the right way.

For me, the question was primarily: where do I present my views on the analysis you presented? Unless instructed otherwise, I'd prefer the /Workshop section, but thought I let you know first.

I'll mention this on the /Workshop talk page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Perfectly understandable. If an arb or clerk thinks my statements should be moved, that's quite alright. I am admittedly not as familiar with arbitration as other steps in the dispute resolution process, so it's entirely possible I placed the links and my comments in the wrong place. Please let me know if you receive feedback from a clerk or the arbs. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 16:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Prem Rawat assessment of sources

Feel free to add your evidence, but please take into account that I still think that you were nearly completely wrong in your assessment of the sources (Reender Kranenborg, Jan van der Lans, and Saul Levine). I have some sources to back up my opinion about them. I have to admit though that you were right that the "sermonizing" by Kranenborg (which was in a seperated section in Kranenborg's book) did not belong in the article Prem Rawat. Andries (talk) 17:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You are free to disagree and it's quite possible that I was wrong. :) Is there a particular place where the sources are being reviewed? Vassyana (talk) 17:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

List of Alpha Phi Alpha brothers and Alpha Phi Alpha

Might want to semi these articles because banned user Mykungfu is constantly hitting these with new socks here, here, here, with the argument that Alpha Phi Alpha is the "oldest" living fraternity. Also, he uses proxies, too. That's why CU evidence is inconclusive in targeting him down. The reason that I am asking you to do this is 1.) I am not an admin 2.) I used to ask Mr. Darcy to take care of this, but he retired. :-( miranda 16:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Assistance

Thanks. Gwandoya requested and IP check, and confirmed that BicMacDad18 was a possible sockpuppet of banned user and prolific puppeteer User:EverybodyHatesChris. Thanks anyway. Nightscream (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what else there really is to do seeing that he's been checkusered here. I'm not sure if a "Possible" constitutes a ban. But thank you. Gwandoya 01:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I sincerely apologize for my delay in responding. I hadn't checked on the MedCab talk page for a few days. My recommendation would be to raise the issue at WP:ANI or WP:SSP. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 01:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd love your assistance. Thanks so much for your time. I'd also like to note that the issue Gwandoya has brought in our argument (which is the issue she's brought up above and twice now on my user talk page) on the MedCab page is really an irrelevant one to that argument. The debate on that page has to do with an edit on the Coral Smith article. I am the one who brought the problem to MedCab because I didn't want to edit war with Nightscream over it, and I even titled the problem "Coral Smith article". If you see things differently, my apologies and I certainly thank for your willingness to help in this issue. BicMacDad18 (talk) 02:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Kim Bruning said I might enjoy chatting with you (I know very little about the mediation cabal). Cheers! Gwen Gale (talk) 05:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

unprotect Bosnian war article

Hi, Nirvana77 and I seem to have worked out our differences on the Bosnian War article (see talk page). Could you please unprotect it? CheersOsli73 (talk) 07:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. Please be cautious in reverting and generous in discussing. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 08:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank's. While you're at it, could you please check User:Texwiller071, suspiciously like User:Grandy Grandy.Osli73 (talk) 08:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter

The Christianity WikiProject Newsletter

The Christianity WikiProject Newsletter! Issue IV - April 2008 Monthly Challenge: Article News Go on over to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Christianity. A lot is going on and your input is needed! Look over the recent changes list for recent improvements to articles, other changes and vandalism. Articles needing improvement can be found in Category:Christianity stubs. Twenty four articles are at FA level and Forty four are GA level articles. You can help by adopting a topic. Christianity Articles by Quality Make visible or invisible by clicking Show or Hide, respectively. Christianity articles by quality and importance Quality Importance Top High Mid Low NA Other ??? Total FA 10 9 38 126 3 1 187 FL 1 14 20 35 FM 210 1 211 A 1 1 2 GA 21 15 191 451 35 3 716 B 224 263 805 2,245 393 235 4,165 C 347 806 2,309 6,783 1 2,497 645 13,388 Start 217 221 1,307 18,721 2 10,466 1,030 31,964 Stub 1 10 256 14,652 8,263 489 23,671 List 13 39 702 1,011 2 79 29 1,875 Category 22,621 1,370 23,991 Disambig 325 18 343 File 881 34 915 Portal 374 1 375 Project 171 19 190 Redirect 7 41 108 693 1,771 599 2 3,221 Template 2,277 120 2,397 NA 16 3 19 Other 113 113 Assessed 841 1,405 5,730 44,703 28,764 23,901 2,434 107,778 Unassessed 1 1 9 15 26 Total 841 1,405 5,731 44,704 28,764 23,910 2,449 107,804 WikiWork factors (?) ω = 369,397 Ω = 4.98 Project News WikiProject Christianity Coordinators : The project coordinators are generally responsible for maintaining all of the procedural and administrative aspects of the project, and serve as the designated points-of-contact for procedural issues. They are not, however, endowed with any special executive powers, nor with any authority over article content or editor conduct.The Lead Coordinator bears overall responsibility for coordinating the project; the Assistant Coordinators aid the Lead Coordinator and focus on specific areas that require special attention. The nomination period for coordinators is currently ongoing at Election 2008 Nominations for open positions will be open through 23:59 (UTC) on April 30 and project members should vote for any candidates they support by April 11 2008. The election will be conducted using simple approval voting. Any member of the project may support as many of the candidates as they wish. The candidate with the highest number of endorsements will become the Lead Coordinator (provided he or she is willing to assume the post); the next four candidates will become Coordinators. Two new workgroups formed - Indian Christianity and Methodism Portal:Indian Christianity launched. Member News Our membership continues to expand. It is currently at 184 users. 86 new users have joined the WikiProject since last issue. Please make them feel welcomed! Archives of previous newsletters can be found here. To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, add your name here. If you have any news or any announcements to be broadcast, let ~ Tinucherian know. This newsletter is automatically delivered by GrooveBot.

BetacommandBot (talk) 00:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Brainstorming

Your thinking is very close to my own - I think it very unlikely that a set of guidelines designed to write about advanced physics topics will work well for articles on the other end of the encyclopedia, and with two million articles there are an awful lot of other ends. To my mind, the original design of Misplaced Pages solved this problem organically - large discretion was granted to whomever was working on an article. They were told "cite sources, avoid original research, be NPOV, and be nice to each other," and turned loose. If their work sucked, well, more people would surely be along to fix it. Thus the overall structure and set of rules was broken up.

Over time, of course, people noticed trends of problems and we accumulated some rules that were meant to apply to all articles. And that was fine and needed - AfD is a great example of a rules-based editorial procedure that comes from the top instead of from the bottom. The problem is that this trend of top-down solutions has continued to snowball. Which, anyone who studies online communities would have guessed, so it's no surprise.

And there's no way to stop that - top-down solutions will continue to, often messily, be applied. The trick, to my mind, is to treat bottom-up thinking as a viral property of the system (which is how it originally worked - the wiki so naturally pushed bottom-up thinking that people's top-down instincts got effectively countered). That is, one pushes top-down rules that require bottom-up thinking to implement. Which is why, whenever I talk about policy, I argue for phrasings that include hedges, phrases like "common sense and local consensus must prevail," admissions that decisions are difficult and complex, etc - to jam the top-down policies up and force bottom-up processes to fill in the gaps.

But this involves a heavy measure of fighting against human nature, as top-down policies are much more comforting and much easier. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Moving articles

Is there a reason why the article Madrid (autonomous community) cannot be renamed/moved? Since the official name of the community is simply "Community of Madrid" (Comunidad de Madrid), I have proposed that the article be renamed in order to avoid the unnecessary parentheses. Since very few users edit that article I have received no response, so after waiting 10+ days, I decided to do it myself. However, I don't get the option of moving the article. Is it semi-protected in some way? Can it be unprotected? --the Dúnadan 22:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/212.159.16.175

I'm wondering how he got off (pardon the pun) without so much as a warning? xenocidic (talk) 13:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The IP Is blocked. Vassyana (talk) 16:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha. I was curious because I didn't see the usual block tag on his talk page. I'll check the block list next time. xenocidic (talk) 16:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

for reverting that BS on my utalk. 21655 23:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the smile. :) Vassyana (talk) 02:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

NOR discussion

Continuing from: Misplaced Pages talk:No original research#Actual proposed change. Both of your responses were intelligent and helpful. I would like to discuss this further, but I don't want to clutter up the policy page (at least until the discussion is more refined :-P). My main question remains. How would you distinguish between legitimate coverage of the "gap" and fluff or nonsense in the absence of editorial or professional authority? That is the question that needs to be answered, because it is the principal question that will arise in relation to policy and good practice. To clarify the "gap", how much obvious or nuts & bolts information is missing from textbooks and other introductory materials? Vassyana (talk) 23:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

My inclination remains to say that distinguishing that gap across two and a half million articles is an impossible task for a policy page, and to leave it, as we are obliged to by the foundation, to the wiki process - that is, to assume that, when directed to avoid novel synthesis, the given community of editors working on any given article will, in fact, be able to do so without a machine-readable guide to doing so. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

• The rules should not focus on examples, hard limits and mechanical benchmarks. The rules should focus on simply explaining what is meant by the principle. For example, the rules should answer: "What does X-POLICYNAME mean? What is Y-POLICYNAME?" They should not answer: "How do I apply X to Y subject? What examples are there of POLICY-Z?" The latter questions should be asked in article talk pages, RfC, and other wiki/community-based avenues. Essentially, rules are intended to give direction with common sense and consensus determining its individual application.

Would you agree with that statement? Vassyana (talk) 03:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with that. One difficulty that comes up on the policy talk pages is that each editor has a different genre of articles in mind, and so there is a lot of misinterpretation between editors. That can make it hard to talk about general principles.

I have been thinking about your original question above, and I hope to be able to write a response soon. I need time to work out some details for myself first, and think of just the right examples to avoid leading the conversation into dead ends. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for putting thought into this. Vassyana (talk) 04:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that summary is very much on target. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Cervical cap

To start out with, I really appreciate your time in offering a third opinion on the merge proposal at cervical cap. Unfortunately, I do not believe your response supported either side of the dispute; that a definition needs to be supported by reliable sources is agreed on by both parties. I believe I have provided reliable sources that some medical professionals refer to this device as a cervical cap. The other editor has provided reliable sources that, at the time Prentif was the only cervical cap available in the United States, United States sources used the term "cervical cap" to refer only to Prentif; because of the recent introduction of FemCap to the U.S., and to avoid U.S.-centrism in the cervical cap article, I do not believe these sources are reliable for the current definition of the term "cervical cap". I was hoping from the third opinion to receive a judgment of which sources were reliable to support which definition.

Also, the issues coming up on that talk page are becoming much more complicated than just the merge. While I would be happy to see your further involvement in the discussion if you are interested, I am planning on posting a notice at the doctor's mess to get a couple more people involved on the cervical cap article. Hopefully that will help a consensus to form instead of the one vs. one situation currently there. Thank you again for taking the time to read the disagreement and offer your opinion. Lyrl _C 23:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Jihad watch MedCab

Hi, just checking that you are still working on mediating this case. Another editor User:Bless sins has now indicated their willingness to join. Whilst there is no great urgency, I do feel a desire to see this mediation progressing. Hoping you are still committed to being mediator. SmithBlue (talk) 03:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

My apologies for any perceived delay. I am taking a little time to familiarize myself with the subject and the article's history. One thing I immediately noticed was a long quiet period on the talk page, and then a very quick movement into dispute resolution. I will be posting to the article talk tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Thanks for understanding. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 03:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Bosnian War

Hi Vassyana. I've seen you protected and unprotected Bosnian War article. Can you protect it again or allow just registered users to edit, because, there is an anon 79.143.164.56 from Republika Srpska who deleted (, ) a good portion of the article and drastically changed some sentences not supported by the sources presented in the article which can lead to false conclusion. Šljkljkž (talk) 09:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:Lectures

#wikipedia-en-lectures @ 15:00 UTC today, yay. Xavexgoem (talk) 14:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

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Barnstar time

This may not be exactly what you wanted, but your handling of 10 Third opinion requests tonight deserves recognition. Please feel free to replace it with the barnstar of your choice, or remove my rave at will :-)
  — Athaenara ✉ 08:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I like the juggler better than a barnstar. :) Thanks for the kinds words! You should know though, I didn't answer all ten, as a couple had been answered but not removed from the list. Vassyana (talk) 08:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome, glad you liked it, happy I got it right. — Athaenara ✉ 09:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

answer

I have posted a reply to your third opinion, and pointed out that the reference-note you criticised was originally added by Peter Jackson. It is a quote from an interview for a magazine. Indeed not very credibly. The other notes you didn't comments on are from review articles and textbooks. Those were deleted by Peter Jackson. Greetings, Sacca 10:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

please revert

please revert your removal of my reinsertion at Chiropractic? I am a neutral observer to the page, I came and reviewed the section, saw it was NPOV, and well sourced. There was no valid reason to remove that content. Thus, my revert was reverting vandalism, something that is OK to do when a page is protected. ⇒SWATJester 16:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)