Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:53, 27 July 2008

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

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Index -index- As of January 16, 2003 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 - late May 2006 May 24 - July 2006 July 2006 - August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 - Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 - December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 - Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 - Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007- Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2-5, 2007 March 5-11, 2007 March 11 - April 3, 2007 April 2 - May 2, 2007 May 3 - June 7, 2007 June 9 - July 4, 2007 July 13 - August 17, 2007 August 17 - September 11, 2007 September 14 - October 7, 2007 October 28 - December 1, 2007 December 2 - December 16, 2007 December 15 - January 4, 2008 January 4 - January 30, 2008 January 30 - February 28, 2008 February 28 - March 11, 2008 March 9 - April 18, 2008 April 18 - May 30, 2008 May 30 - July 27, 2008 July 26 - October 4, 2008 October 4 - November 12, 2008 November 10 - December 10, 2008 December 5 - December 25, 2008 December 25 - January 16, 2009 January 15 - January 27, 2009 January 26 - February 10, 2009 February 8 - March 18, 2009 March 18 - May 6, 2009 May 5 - June 9, 2009 June 10 - July 11, 2009 July 12 - August 29, 2009

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Thank you

		The Original Barnstar
		I award you this barnstar for co-founding this amazing project. Thank you for providing free knowledge to the world. EoinMahon (talk) 11:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello Jimbo

I am Dylan Borg from the Maltese Misplaced Pages. I edit on both the Maltese and the English Wikipedias. I am proud to be a Wikipedian and I also want to thank you for founding Misplaced Pages. I am currently doing chemistry realted work on the Maltese Misplaced Pages.

From the Maltese Wikipedian: Dylan Borg (talk) 14:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

P.S. My existing User Pages: en · mt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Borgdylan (talk • contribs) 14:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Unwatched pages

We have a special admin-viewable page for unwatched article. Such a report would be incredibly valuable for finding subtle vandalism, or vandalism that slips past RC patrol. It would be especially useful if we could filter for pages that need extra scrutiny, like articles with the BLP category.

Unfortunately, this special page only lists the first 1000 articles in alphabetical order, and is only updated perhaps once a week. It's therefore been nearly useless. Since it debuted over two years ago, we've actually moved backwards in the alphabet. We can only see a small tip of the iceberg.

Some admins have proposed various ways to make the page more useful, but it's apparently not a priority. I think that's unfortunate, and I hope you could use some of your influence to help make this special pages as valuable as it ought to be. See discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Special:UnwatchedPages#Suggestion. Cool Hand Luke 00:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages on Twitter

I think it's time the English Misplaced Pages got on the Twitter bandwagon. Thus, I've created an account called @ArticleoftheDay (it wouldn't let me create @Misplaced Pages, even though there seems to be no one actually using such an acccount) to broadcast the featured article from the main page every day. I've emailed the general info address of the Foundation about this from the email account created to register it (wikipediatwitter gmail com), but I thought I'd drop you a line as well. Thanks, Steven Walling (talk) 01:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiPedia and WikiMedia content is copy-left. But certain terms like "Misplaced Pages" are trademarked. Don't use them except where fair use applies or the Foundation says it is ok. We use trademark status to generate money needed to run the servers. You like that we are ad free, right? Well, respect the options left to us to pay for the costs of this free service. Thank you. WAS 4.250 (talk) 07:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Guidance from da Boss

Hey Jimbo...can you take a look at http://meta.wikipedia.org/User:Buster7/Wikiknights and tell me what you think. And, if you think it has potential, how and where should I develope the idea? In the short time I've been editing, it just seems that I run across many, many editors that have called it quits. Also, I see the knights as a way to implement support for the overwhelming majority of good faith editors that wind up "going down the rabbit hole".--Buster7 (talk) 06:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Errors in Misplaced Pages?

I just added a "disputed" tag to Misplaced Pages's article titled error. How many points do I win for unintentional humor? Michael Hardy (talk) 23:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

PS: The photograph at the beginning of the article is amusing. Check it out if you've never seen it. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Humour is all very well and is a valuable safety-valve here. However, there is a serious point to be addressed. I have, say, 500 articles on my watchlist; I also have a list of articles that I would like to improve, to the point of taking to good article if not better. I think that is what we should be doing, producing a free and reliable encyclopedia; however, I spend a lot of time dealing with utter nonsense on those 500 articles, and that is why I support "approved versions". I go further:

It's no great problem in principle to have accredited/trustworthy editors to certify and freeze articles as to meet policy and guidelines and only permit major edits when they are justified by WP:RS and WP:V. In a sense, we have this with page protection, but Admins are not supposed to protect on the basis of content. However, in an accountable and volunteer community, the authority to freeze an article in an acceptable form is, although attractive in pragmatic terms, likely to be politically unattractive. I've committed my last few remaining years to transferring my expertise on to this website, because I suppose, for what it's worth, I choose it to be my epitaph. Not much, perhaps, but it matters to me. If it had been around thiry years ago, however.... --Rodhullandemu 00:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually not trying to be negative here; but obvious vandals are obvious. Subtle vandals are so much more trouble, and we don't have much defence against them. In the last month, for example, incorrect changes were made to French Indo-China, not an article I'd normally even be aware of but for impact on my watchlist for other articles by the same editor. How many other editors would have picked that up in a timely manner? --Rodhullandemu 00:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Deutschkurs

Hallo Jimbo, ich find's richtig gut, dass du Deutsch lernst! Eine interessante Seite gibt es hier: . Sorry, der Beitrag ist etwas länger geworden. Ich hoffe, du verstehst trotzdem, worum es geht. Grüße aus Dresden (no, it's not near Frankfurt, it is near Berlin ;-)) --Brutus Brummfuß (talk) 18:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

'Bout Bedford

Hiya Jimmy. Which was the MySpace blog post of death for Bedford's administrative privileges? --harej 18:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

"Never suffer fools gladly", the update. I can send you the link if you cannot find it from that, email me.

Btw, I was not online the last two days and missed the mess, I would simply like to say I do appreciate you stepping in and saving the community the trouble of Yet Another ArbCom, Jimmy - thanks and kudos. KillerChihuahua 19:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

^ For he's a jolly good fellow :)   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 20:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

We need a better process for de-admining admins. Also, a required one month per year vacation from admin tools might be useful. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see how this instance, at least, prompted your comment, WAS. That particular admin seems to have been de-adminned quite effectively (although admittedly he shot both feet full of holes and sank himself.) KillerChihuahua 21:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking that it would be nice if all our de-admin cases were handled as fast and with as minimal drama as this one. Our processes seem designed to create maximum drama, although I know that was not the intent. They should be rethought. Perhaps by a bunch of people specifically elected to rethink our admining and de-admining processes. Perhaps the Foundation could pay for a dispute resolution expert to assist such an elected group. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is fine up until a desysop is fast tracked that you have qualms about (and I am not referring to any opinion I have on the current case). Then it may be a case of, "Hey, couldn't youse guys'n'gals waited a while and discussed this before rushing to deadmin?" If someone does (appear to) abuse the trust by which they were granted the tools, it behoves the community is most cases to see how that trust was misapplied so the same mistake may not be made in future. Unless the consent of the community is removed in the awarding of the bits, then it is the community that ultimately needs to be involved in the removal of same. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:08, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes. This is a difficult issue. Everyone paying attention knows there are issues. No one has a slam dunk solution. We need honest discussion of the issues. At WikiVersity I and others are trying that. I don't know how successful we will be, but we are trying. WAS 4.250 (talk) 03:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

An Essay Im working on

Hi Mr Wales,

Would you please give your point of view on users who whine about issues on your user page with complete disregard to the processes set in place to deal with those issues? Thanks   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 20:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Bedford

Neither desysopping him, nor "dictating" the terms under which he can be resysopped again, is your decision to make. All authority properly rests with the community. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 20:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Last time I noticed User:The Community was blocked -- with his consent. In that user's absence, the defacto chair is Jimbo. It is long-standing common-law procedure that the chair of an organization may make ad-hoc decisions according to his or her perception of the welfare of the organization, subject to appeal to the sovereign. And who is the sovereign? There are actually several: there is the Foundation, there is the community which supports the Foundation (this is what Kurt insists upon, but that community has allowed its authority to remain with the Foundation and with Jimbo); and there is the legal sovereign for the state that granted the organizational charter. In any case, Jimbo's decision was a common one, which he certainly had the authority to make. Don't think he has the authority? Take that bit away from him. That might be a tad difficult, especially since he, in this case, exercised his authority exactly as was appropriate, as shown by community response. (I've seen other, far more questionable actions, creating much, much more fuss. But everyone makes mistakes. It's what happens later that counts.) --Abd (talk) 22:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with Kurt and I'm going to make it known to him. Kurt, you have no right to tell Jimbo what to do. --Elkman 21:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The community solidly supported Jimbo's action at ANI. Durova 22:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a reminder, desysoping should be done at meta, not locally. Hope you don't mind this, Prodego 22:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Then the community should have been the ones to take the action, and it should only have been done after the community assented. The Outlaw Jimbo Wales has no authority to do it on his own initiative. And Elkman, it's Jimbo who has no legitimate authority to tell anyone else what to do. He's nothing special. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

He did take the action with the community's consent. And in the beginning, Jimbo had absolute power. It's only through voluntary devolution on his part that the ArbCom exists and the Foundation has a wide range of powers. In a sense, his presence on Misplaced Pages is like the monarchy of England - once absolute, but with most powers deferred to the elected and the populace, but still possessing a Royal Prerogative (hell, Jimbo himself cited Queen Elizabeth II in the creation of ArbCom). Sceptre 00:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Your first sentence is false. At the time of the action, there was no evidence at all of a clear consensus to desysop. It doesn't matter what happens after the fact; to be legitimate, all such actions must follow consensus rather than precede it. What's so difficult to understand about that?

And I'm quite familiar with the history of Misplaced Pages; probably more so than you. That doesn't make it right. His "voluntary devolution" is not necessary, since he has no legitimate authority to be devolved in the first place. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't he have legitimate authority in the first place, then? Sceptre 00:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Because he called it a "community project" from the outset. While I certainly recognize his (or rather, the WMF's) moral right to do what they wish, and so would never dream of taking anyone to court over this, that does not mean that I am obligated to personally like or not object to whatever they choose to do. Blatant hypocrisy is blatant hypocrisy regardless of whether one has the right to engage in it or not, and while the government has no business interfering, that doesn't mean I can't try and put an end to it so long as I do so through persuasion rather than coercive force. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Kurt, if you're so much against Jimbo having power/authority, leave the project.--KojiDude 00:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

"If you don't like everything, then you should leave instead of trying to fix what you don't like" has never been a particularly compelling argument, and is generally just the last resort of someone who can't make a better counterargument but is too intellectually dishonest to admit it. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:48, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a compelling argument to me. You've got no power to change things here, and bitching about it doesn't help. If you dislike how Misplaced Pages works so much, really, why stay? Maybe try and answer this time, instead of turning it around to insult me.--KojiDude 00:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Who's bitching? I'm working to persuade others. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

And you still haven't answered.--KojiDude 00:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

What is there to answer? Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 01:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps because he sees it as mostly moot? Really, is this helpful? --Abd (talk) 00:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Jimbo is a trustee of a kind, as are all admins, in a lesser way. Trustees are empowered to use their tools as they see fit in the interest of the community. They not only may ignore rules, indeed they must, they are not mere robots. We see this every day with an efficient chair of a meeting. They bypass rules of procedure routinely. However, any member may appeal at any time, after the fact. If I had an employee who insisted on asking my permission to do something obviously necessary, before doing it, and delaying it when delay was harmful, I'd probably fire him. Depends. Kurt has a private fantasy of "legitimacy." Jimbo has the authority to use his tools as he did because (1) He began with it. (2) Nobody took it away. (3) He has not relinquished it. It's a fact that the community, awakened, would have the power to take it away if it were to so choose. But (1) the community is not awake to the necessary degree and (2) it is far from obvious that, were it awake, it would take the power away. Why take away the power of a servant? It's only shooting yourself in the foot. Speaking, now, for that community that isn't awake yet, and thus unable to confirm or deny what I'm saying, we would not take away anyone's power unless it became blatantly necessary to do so. Surely a libertarian would understand that, in theory. --Abd (talk) 00:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Abd put it better than I could. All I can add is that "community project" is not the translation of "ἀναρχία". Sceptre 00:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I am sick and tired of this ludicrous strawman built by people who are so lazy that they would rather jump to ridiculous conclusions about what they think I said, even though they're not supported by any sane interpretation of the actual words I wrote, rather than pay attention to what I actually did write. This isn't the only instance (really, I challenge anyone to show me how any sane interpretation of what I actually said would indicate that I view Misplaced Pages as more important than someone's life, or that I opposed Gwynand's RfA because of his choice of username, etc.), but it's the most persistent and the most frustrating. I do not, nor have I ever said anything even remotely indicating that I, oppose authority in the abstract, and I defy anyone to show me where I have. Authority is fine, so long as it stems from the community. And someone claiming authority and the community failing to counter it is absolutely not the same as the community positively and explicitly granting that authority. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

--KojiDude 00:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You did it again--drew a conclusion that's not supported by any sane interpretation of what I actually wrote. Tell me, how does one go from "The Arbitrary Committee is not a legitimate authority" to "There is no such thing as a legitimate authority"? Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 01:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually with Kurt on this one. Misplaced Pages can never be a community project until the status of Jimbo is something other than "benevolent dictator". (Sorry, Jimbo, no personal offence intended.) While Jimbo has indeed performed less dictatorial actions of late, there is still the looming presence, like a Big Brother without the obvious evil connotations that go with that name. People also need to stop overreacting to Kurt's comments. Assume good faith, please. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 01:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to know what your getting at here, Do you think the de-sysop was unjustified? No I don't think so. Then what your trying to get at is that Jimbo saved Misplaced Pages alot of dicking around with Arbcom to get this guy de-sysoped. Jimbo wales has every right to intervene where he see's fit and usually has VERY GOOD REASON TO (in this he did also). Your probably jealous of Jimbo that's all. The only thing worse than a "benevolent dictator" (not that i agree with the term) It a person telling another how or what he should do and when, or in this case NOT DO.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 04:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, Kurt Weber you need to cool of a little, I'm sure everyone here knows that your slightly agitated, its showing in your posts   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 05:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

http://uz.wikipedia.org

Dear Jimbo Wales,

In Uzbekistan there is no access to uz.wiki. People believe it is banned by the Government. I'd like to know your opinion about this problem and also would like to know does the Wikimedia Foundation have a power to overcome such problems. Thank you. Gülməmməd 20:41, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Only since I mentioned you in the policy proposal...

I'm not asking for your support or opposition, but feel free to do either, or comment. Regards, NonvocalScream (talk) 22:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

My farewell to Misplaced Pages

Dear Jimbo,

I appreciate very much your creation "Misplaced Pages". I have contributed to your creation in 3 languages (english, italian and spanish) in the last years but now I believe it is changing to something where little groups (well connected to admins who are their friends) can decide everything....even create the ban of wikipedians who disagree with them. Specifically, I refer to what is doing a group of nationalists from former Yugoslavia: they have obtained the ban of all the Italians dealing with dalmatian issues. I wrote you last year about how they were manipulating the sockpuppetry issue creating multiple IP from webservers like "earthlink" and then accusing we italians. Indeed they have used last year the hacker method of stealing my IP and create, for example, a user:Dalmata sockpuppet of me (I am user:Brunodam). You probably know that an "emerging gang of wrongdoers called “bot-herders” hijack other people's computers, stitch them together in a “botnet” and use them to send spam, steal data or disrupt the internet" Please, see article on ". That is why I wrote you and we got successively the dalmatia arbitration , where I was not found guity of anything. But then I found myself accused to be a confirmed sockpuppeteer of the same user:Dalmata by a checkup that did not consider the hacker method I explained before. And that was the beginning! After that the group of nationalistic croats went irritating and consequently obtaining the ban of user:Giovanni Giove, user:PIO, user: Luigi 28, user:Marygiove, user:ItaliaIrredenta and many other italians who defended the "italianity" of Istria/Dalmatia. I was accused of being all of them, of course, even if chekups later demonstrated the contrary. Then in november 2007 appeared a slovenian user:AlasdairGreen27, who suddenly from nowhere (he started saying he is a "british boy" living in Lubiana ) showed very good knowledge of croatian topics and a few months later now dominates wikipedia rules, creating continuously cases against we Italians (e.g.‎,, , etc...). How a boy can master all this in a few months? May be he is a banned fanatic croatian, like user:Pio writes in Simple english wikipedia. Pio writes here that this "boy" is a sockpuppet of banned croatian user:No.13 ( and banned croatian user:AfrikaPaprika (;). This is the only logical explanation of how a kid can write so many articles on croatian issues with perfect knowledge of the topics, in just a few months! If you check his history page you will agree that his knowledge is astonishing: a man need many years to accumulate such a knowledge. Now this "boy" is harrassing me because I am the only italian left in the english wikipedia defending italian dalmatia issues. If you check how the articles on Dalmatia were last year (even with italian points or view), and how they are now totally written by croats, you will understand why they want to ban all we italians. Now the croatian group is accusing me of being a lot of other users, who are totally unrelated to me. Some inappropriate admins banned Italian accounts of users Luigi 29, Jxy, Ciolone for simple suspects and no evidence, like they want to do with me now here . They use the same trick of inserting my name as "proven" sockpuppet, like here: Cherso = 4.231.202.49 = Brunodam seems clear were the "seems" means proven! And the usual "boy" (AladairsGreen27) writes that I am user:ItaliaIrredenta even if the checkup has proven that I am "unrelated" to him! Furthermore, an anonimous user:210.19.71.60 (probably another croat) accuses me to be user:MagdelenaDiArco without any evidence and the "boy" quickly uses this accusation to ask my ban! Admin Sam Korn writes about my checkups that "Obviously there is a limit to the evidence CheckUser can provide", and this means to me that the croats are pushing my ban with incredible imagination. They argue that I post from Colorado (while I live in southern Florida), then from New York and then from Italy and then from Broomfield ....in their fanatical minds I should travel half the world across the Atlantic only to post something on Misplaced Pages!! Unbelievable. Why should I write so many posts from so many places? Why should I have so many sockpuppets? The usual croatian trick has banned user:Luigi 28 for being user:PIO, while they are not related and communicate in the italian wikipedia (see ): why admins don't see this mistake and reinstate user Luigi 28, who is an experienced writer on dalmatian issues at scholar level? May be they too are afraid of the growing power of this group inside the english wikipedia? Listen, dear Jimbo, I don't write on the english wikipedia since the beginning of may 2008 and for nearly 3 months my discussion page has been harrassed by the croats (see ) without any admin intervention to forbide this offensive abuse at the level of teenager students. Two weeks ago the "kid" (AlasdairGreen28/AfrikaPaprika) accused me of multiple socks , but was forced to accept the evidences by a serious admin. Yesterday was the last false accusation against me (see ): How do you call all this harrassment and invasion of my privacy? And now the croats got me out, irritating me as they did with Giovanni Giove, Pio, etc..: now who is going to balance the dalmatian and istrian articles? Thanks to some admins who ban even ladies who want a peaceful wikipedia (like user:Marygiove, see ) all is in the croatian hands now....... Well, this post is too long now. Sorry for this, but it is my farewell to you and your wonderful creation. I hope you can prevent Misplaced Pages from falling in the hands of fanatical groups, supported by admin who are onesided and not based on clear and precise proofs. Sincerely,--Brunodam (talk) 06:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)