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Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 946 articles are assigned to this project, of which 413, or 43.7%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subscribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 11:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merger with WikiProject World History

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject World History has seen no activity since April. Propose that, given the overlap of the scope of the groups, that project be integrated into this one, either as a separate subproject or possibly merged directly into the project itself. John Carter (talk) 00:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I support this merger. Atleast, until such time there is activity to call for a split. J. D. Redding 19:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

How long should we wait till a merger is done? J. D. Redding 13:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I fully support this merger. Whenever you have the time we can go through with it, and i'll leave the nature of the merger at your discretion (John Carter). Rucha58 00:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Re-assessment of articles, where?

I am just wondering where can I request a reassessment of one of my articles, Prehistoric medicine, because there seems to be no obvious place to ask? MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 11:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for standard infobox for History of templates

In my travels around Misplaced Pages, I've noticed that there is an almost complete lack of cohesion among the "History of " navbox templates that organize articles about history by country (see, for example, France, Serbia, the Netherlands, Canada, among many). I began to go through a few templates, re-coding them, but then I realized that it would be much easier to create a meta-template. I have created one on a subpage, User:Mr. Absurd/History, but I'd like some feedback and discussion before I go ahead with it, to both improve the template and hopefully obtain consensus.

There seem to be two basic types of these infoboxes — those that contain a small number of articles, grouped in one main list (like Belarus), and those with a large number of articles, in several subgroups (like Germany). The proposed template accounts for both of these types. Basically, each article in the list will go under a |data# = parameter, and subgroup headers will go under |header#=. However, if an article has no subgroup headers, a parameter called |bold = yes triggers the template to bold these links and increase the line-height slightly, while |bold = no (or the absence of |bold) will leave the article links at a normal weight, and with a smaller line-height to account for a large number of articles. (These two basic "types" can be seen on the right).

So what do you think? Do you support the idea? hate it? have questions? want to suggest something? Please reply! Your comments and criticism will help this to succeed. (Also, I need a name — I was thinking Template:Infobox Country history or Template:Infobox History of country, but I'm not sure if they really follow naming conventions). Thank you! Mr. Absurd (talk) 04:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Template:History of country or even better Template:Country history. I like the latter here as it's the easiest to type in ... JIMO. J. D. Redding 17:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I like it, I just hope people are not going to follow your example with those massive coa's/flags. Also, make the section headers thinner I think, the point of these is to be as minimalist as possible. As for the name - naming conventions are overrated, just dump it somewhere and people will use it from there unless you've really messed up, in which case it can be moved with two clicks. :) +Hexagon1 07:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I followed your advice about the section headers — they're now the same size as the list and a little thinner. Though I personally like the image large, I've made them smaller, because I see the need for the infobox to be, as you said, as minimal as possible. Mr. Absurd (talk) 23:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Agree with Hexagon1 that the bold heds should be a little smaller. Also be prepared for wailing and gnashing of teeth from people who think their wee flags actually convey important info. I'm interested in how this template, or something similar, might be applied to e.g. the Creek Nation, which has an absurd "ethnic group" infobox on its page. That flag really has to go as well. It seems to be completely imaginary. -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 11:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right. If we have to use images, I personally don't really like using flags — I like COAs or satellite images (though that really only works for islands, like Ireland). Especially because some flags only correlate to a small part of the country's history, like Canada's, which was only established in 1967 — on a historical level, it doesn't really relate very well. Mr. Absurd (talk) 23:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Just put an option in to display an image ... that way the flag, symbol, ect. can be displayed ...

I like the bold heads w/ the grey area ... just a personal preferences ... makes it easier too to see the 'group' of links ...

just a comment ... J. D. Redding 17:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

This is something I would have proposed a while ago if I had much programming experience. Overall, the template is good, I agree with the points above, I think a flag should be included, but smaller than the ones above. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 13:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It all sounds good to me. I apologize to say I have no real suggestions, comments, or criticism, at least not right now, but it's definitely a good idea. LordAmeth (talk) 14:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

agree with teh box. looks good. peace Nathraq (talk) 20:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a wonderful idea, as it will bring organization to this aspect of Misplaced Pages. Sorry that I have no suggestions or comments. Everything looks pretty good to me already! Good luck and happy editing! --Benedict of Constantinople (talk) 00:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I want you to see this template on Thai Misplaced Pages. It's the Template:Thailand history. I suggest you make the border of the box thinner like that template. Also, I think the header should be more outstanding like that template which has the brown bar on the top. Honestly, I like the table system more - it shows you if the two kingdom splits and compound together and what years (The years there are not Anno Domini - it's Buddhist era) --Passawuth (talk) 10:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a lovely template, thanks for showing it to me. I'm not sure what you mean by "border of the box" though — could you elaborate? Also, about the brown bar on top, I disagree, because the series boxes are meant to be unobtrusive, unlike the typical infobox, which is directly related to the article (that's at least my opinion, anyway). As for the table system, I think it would only work in very specific instances — for the typical history series, there aren't really kingdom splits and joins that a table system would be used for. Mr. Absurd (talk) 18:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I've made a few changes to the headers — I removed the background entirely and bumped the font size up a bit. Is this better or worse? Mr. Absurd (talk) 18:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

It make no differences to my eyes. I've changed the template so I can elaborate to you more easily. Border of the infobox - that's where I lighten up. If the header couldn't have a bar, can it have a symbol/seal/coat of arms ? --Passawuth (talk) 05:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for showing me what you meant. However, that border colour is used throughout English Misplaced Pages — it's the colour used on every standard template, as well as Misplaced Pages itself (i.e., all the borders throughout the site). As such, I don't think we should be changing it. I'm confused what you mean about a symbol/seal/coat of arms; there's already a parameter for an image, as you can see in the examples above. Did you mean something more than that?

Also, I've reverted the change that Reddi made to the background colour — as said earlier, we're trying to be unobtrusive, and I think the colour is distracting and unnecessary (although I would be open to the suggestion if he provided a good reason). Mr. Absurd (talk) 23:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to get it the way it is now ... with the title highlighted a lil bit ./.. and withthe standard #f8eaba history color std ... sincerely, J. D. Redding

Oh, okay, that explains that then. Where else is this colour used? (I'm just curious, I don't recognize it). I still don't really like it (or think it's necessary) but I'll leave it and hopefully we can get some feedback from other users. In the meantime, I'm going to add a little padding to the header, as it's a bit squished as-is. Mr. Absurd (talk) 03:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, I see where the colour is from now. I suppose it's better to keep it, then, for consistency. Mr. Absurd (talk) 04:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh. Never mind what I said. --Passawuth (talk) 10:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Update

After some tweaking, by myself and other users, the template has now been moved to Template:Country history and can be "enacted". I'm sure it will go through a bit of a rough patch as we have to convert a whole whack of very different templates, but hopefully it will eventually lead to a much more standardized set of articles. Thank you for all your support and positive comments! Any further suggestions can be directed at the template talk page. Mr. Absurd (talk) 04:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move of Aztec and Inca

Please discuss this move here--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 14:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Please, please, please...

I am working on the 2008/9 Schools Misplaced Pages, due out first week Sept, content fixed from ten days time. It is a big project and a popular one (the online 2007 version will overtake Citizendium on Alexa within a few months and there are more than a million offline users). We want to include a lot of portal pages but it would really help to have portal pages for curriculum topics so a teacher can look at all the relevant resources in one. A few exist but many do not. Ones like "the Tudors" "Medieval Britain" British History 1500-1750 and 1750-1900 etc (see http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/curriculum.htm for ideas) would improve the schools wikipedia no end and also bring teachers onto the main site. I don't have the skills or time to do any of these. Please could someone here have a go at some? --BozMo talk 09:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a run at a Medieval Britain Portal today. --Kaly99 (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

List of countries in chronological order of achieving statehood

Does anybody want to take a look at List of countries in chronological order of achieving statehood? It is full of dubious countries and other errors. For example, it says that Bohemia, not the Czech Republic, became independent on January 1, 1993 from Czechoslovakia. (An IP keeps changing that one back.) Thanks, Phlegm Rooster (talk) 17:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Founding of Japan

On the list of countries in chronological order of achieving statehood, the date given for the founding of Japan, 660 BC, is the traditional date derived from Japanese legend. But in actual historical fact, the Yamato state which would evolve into a unified, coordinated country did not emerge until many centuries later. Whether that date is 538, when the capital was founded at Asuka, 710 when the capital was founded at Nara, or earlier in the Kofun period, is certainly a matter of debate. Many scholars of Japanese history would likely argue that there was no country of "Japan" until 1868. But in any case, whatever date we may choose, it's certainly not 660 BC, as that's simply completely historically inaccurate, going back to a period during the Jomon period before there was any organized government or society of any kind beyond small chiefdoms, extended family clan villages, or something to that effect. Please see discussion at Talk:List of countries in chronological order of achieving statehood, and respond there, not here. Thank you. LordAmeth (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date-autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional, after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages of using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

• (1) In-house only

• (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
• (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
• (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

• (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences

• (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

• (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates

• (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
• (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
• (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

• (4) Typos and misunderstood coding

• (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
• (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
• (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

• (5) Edit-mode clutter

• (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

• (6) Limited application

• (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
• (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors, and the consensus for change is overwhelming. I seek in-principle consensus here for the removal of date autoformatting from the main text of articles related to this WikiProject, using a script; such a move would also be sensitive to local objections on any article talk page. The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links.

You may wish to peruse the following capped text to compare two examples, with and without date autoformatting. The DA is set at international style—the one pertaining in this particular article—to show all WPians how the blue dates are displayed to visitors. MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted, analogous to our highly successful guidelines for the use of varieties of English. The choice of style is audited during the running of the script to ensure that it is appropriate to the article (i.e., consistent, and country-related where appropriate).

EXAMPLE 1

Original

Marshal Suchet had received orders from Napoleon to commence operations on 14 June; and by rapid marches to secure the mountain passes in the Valais and in Savoy (then part of the Kingdom of Sardinia), and close them against the Austrians. On 15 June, his troops advanced at all points for the purpose of gaining the frontier from Montmeilian, as far as Geneva; which he invested. Thence he purposed to obtain possession of the important passes of Meillerie and St. Maurice; and in this way to check the advance of the Austrian columns from the Valais. At Meillerie the French were met and driven back by the advanced guard of the Austrian right column, on 21 June. By means of forced marches the whole of this column, which Baron Frimont himself accompanied, reached the Arve on 27 June. The left column, under Count Bubna, crossed Mount Cenis on 24 June and 25 June. On 28 June, the column was sharply opposed by the French at Conflans; of which place, however, the Austrians succeeded in gaining possession.

To secure the passage of the river Arve the advanced guard of the right column detached, on 27 June, to Bonneville, on its left; but the French, who had already fortified this place, maintained a stout resistance. In the mean time, however, the Austrians gained possession of the passage at Carrouge; by which means the French were placed under the necessity of evacuating Bonneville, and abandoning the valley of the Arve. The Austrian column now passed Geneva, and drove the French from the heights of Grand Saconex and from St. Genix. On 29 June, this part of the Austrian army moved towards the Jura; and, on 21 July, it ...

DA-free

Marshal Suchet had received orders from Napoleon to commence operations on 14 June; and by rapid marches to secure the mountain passes in the Valais and in Savoy (then part of the Kingdom of Sardinia), and close them against the Austrians. On 15 June, his troops advanced at all points for the purpose of gaining the frontier from Montmeilian, as far as Geneva; which he invested. Thence he purposed to obtain possession of the important passes of Meillerie and St. Maurice; and in this way to check the advance of the Austrian columns from the Valais. At Meillerie the French were met and driven back by the advanced guard of the Austrian right column, on 21 June. By means of forced marches the whole of this column, which Baron Frimont himself accompanied, reached the Arve on 27 June. The left column, under Count Bubna, crossed Mount Cenis on 24 and 25 June. On 28 June, the column was sharply opposed by the French at Conflans; of which place, however, the Austrians succeeded in gaining possession.

To secure the passage of the river Arve the advanced guard of the right column detached, on 27 June, to Bonneville, on its left; but the French, who had already fortified this place, maintained a stout resistance. In the mean time, however, the Austrians gained possession of the passage at Carrouge; by which means the French were placed under the necessity of evacuating Bonneville, and abandoning the valley of the Arve. The Austrian column now passed Geneva, and drove the French from the heights of Grand Saconex and from St. Genix. On 29 June, this part of the Austrian army moved towards the Jura; and, on 21 July, it ...

EXAMPLE 2

Original

On 5 July the main body of the Bavarian Army reached Chalons; in the vicinity of which it remained during 6 June. On this day, its advanced posts communicated, by Epernay, with the Prussian Army. On 7 July Prince Wrede received intelligence of the Convention of Paris, and at the same time, directions to move towards the Loire. On 8 July Lieutenant General Czernitscheff fell in with the French between St. Prix and Montmirail; and drove him across the Morin, towards the Seine. Previously to the arrival of the IV (Bavarian) Corps at Château-Thierry; the French garrison had abandoned the place, leaving behind it several pieces of cannon, with ammunition. On 10 July, the Bavarian Army took up a position between the Seine and the Marne; and Prince Wrede's Headquarters were at La Ferté-sous-Jouarre.

DA-free

On 5 July the main body of the Bavarian Army reached Chalons; in the vicinity of which it remained during 6 June. On this day, its advanced posts communicated, by Epernay, with the Prussian Army. On 7 July Prince Wrede received intelligence of the Convention of Paris, and at the same time, directions to move towards the Loire. On 8 July Lieutenant General Czernitscheff fell in with the French between St. Prix and Montmirail; and drove him across the Morin, towards the Seine. Previously to the arrival of the IV (Bavarian) Corps at Château-Thierry; the French garrison had abandoned the place, leaving behind it several pieces of cannon, with ammunition. On 10 July, the Bavarian Army took up a position between the Seine and the Marne; and Prince Wrede's Headquarters were at La Ferté-sous-Jouarre.

I look forward to your feedback. Tony (talk) 07:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

A survey that takes place on a user's talk page (User:Tony1/Support for the removal of date autoformatting) instead of on the relevant guidline talk page is not much of an indicator of anything.

At the moment there is a specific discussion if autoformatting should be removed from Julian dates as it has been argued that the ISO option in users preferences means that to link Julian dates (as used for all British Irish and American articles and biographies before 1752) is misleading. See Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Gregorian calendar --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the place, but let me throw in my $0.05 (blame inflation ;) ). I prefer the linked dates, because they let interested readers (of which I am occasionally one) look immediately at other events on the given date. I consider that useful (if not of earth-shattering importance). I also don't see great clutter added by the extra blue links on dates here. (These are not the most-cluttered examples I've seen.) I don't think linking dates, in general, is a big issue to clutter or confusion, nor to de-emphasizing important links; isn't the whole idea of having links to enable impulsive jumps to new pages? Yes, I know, also to important related or clarifying content, but I don't know how many times I've been reading something & clicked just to see what the related subject was, including dates & years. FWIW. TREKphiler 16:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

British-India Holocaust

This new article looks rather POV-ridden to me, and apears to exaggerate the death toll and, possibly, the extent of British responsibility (especially the comparisons to the Nazis and Stalin). It isn't at all in line with the article on this topic (Great Famine of 1876–78) and seems unessessary and possibly should be considered a POV-fork of that article. Can this be saved, or should it be nominated for deletion? Nick Dowling (talk) 11:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems like it should be deleted, as the subject is already covered by the "Great Famine" article. If we wanted to incorporate a little more into the Great Famine article about accusations against the British, that could be alright. But the "Holocaust" article as it stands is both redundant, and founded upon a biased view of the event - the very fact that the word "Holocaust" is used is evidence of that. LordAmeth (talk) 17:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I've nominated it for AfD. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/British-India Holocaust. LordAmeth (talk) 18:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Nick Dowling (talk) 12:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Pulitzer Prize winning history books

I am not sure how active this project is, but if someone or even the project, is looking for something to do, Misplaced Pages's coverage of Pulitzer Prize winning history books is poor at best. These are some of the most important historical works of all time and we are lacking even basic articles on the majority of them. I created an article today on a book I have read. It would be good if everyone could just read through the list and if you have read a book create an article, even a stub. Every little bit helps. KnightLago (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Two major issues

Hello,

I feel I am being bullied from editing at two articles: Norse colonization of the Americas, and the telescope article. The telescope article isn't that much of a problem, but I am concerned over the Norse colonization of the Americas. I recently made a very ?good? addition to the article but it has been reverted. I don't understand. They will probably say it was because of a POV. I don't understand: the new additions were as "nice" as I could have put them. I am half-native American, but I feel I shouldn't try and degrade people so I wanted to be fair. Is my newest edit there in good graces??? I actually really respect the Germans and I think that they're strong. Guderian would often ride with his troops in the lead tank (at the expense of his staff's pleas). InternetHero (talk) 21:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

At a glance, the edits here are unsourced, of poor grammar or punctuation, & change the meaning to no discernible cause or benefit. I'd revert, too.

This move was ill-advised, IMO; a mention of radiotelescopes in the history is necessary to complete the progression before turning to types. This more properly belongs in a history of optics; a brief summary, as before was changed, is more apt. And "made monumental advances" is POV & OT for the telescope. I'd revert that, too. TREKphiler 21:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ummm, O.K. My edit was on the left, though. I added a lot of info, and it wasn't unsourced... Critism taken. InternetHero (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

These claims are unsourced AFAIK. TREKphiler 22:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to put a citation on every freakin sentence... I don't understand the grammar part. IMHO, this sentence is of poor quality: "All four of Erik the Red's children were to visit the North American continent, his sons Leif, Thorvald and Thorstein and their sister Freydis. One of the sons, Thorvald , died there."

I changed it to this: "All four of Erik the Red's children were to visit the North American continent: his sons Leif, Thorvald, and Thorstein as well as their half-sister Freydis. Unfortunately, Thorvald died while attempting to explore the lands there." (forgot a comma)

Absolutely no offence, but do you know what grammar is? Its the sequencing of clauses and punctuation. I'm actually very good with the sequencing of time. Look here for more info on grammar (I got best answer). InternetHero (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

1. ^ Siborne, pp. 775,776
2. ^ Siborne, p. 776

• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists, unused