Misplaced Pages

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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation

Disruptive school project?

I thought it was odd that two similarly named editors (User:Parker229 & User:Gudhka229) would make similar, consecutive edits to Photography to add Susan Sontag quotes, but didn't look at it too closely. When the third one (User:Choi229) showed up on my watch list with more Sontag quotes, I understood it was related to a school project. After 11 such editors adding quotes and what looks like snippets of textbooks or essays, Photography is now semi-protected.

If you look at other articles edited by these users, you will find a similar pattern of good-faith edits followed (in some cases) by reverts by more experienced editors. In other cases, no one seems to be cleaning up afterwards. See the history of Internet activism where great swathes of text have been added by a series of editors with the same reference, presumably the course textbook.

I'm not sure what to do about this, but it definitely needs some more eyes. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• How about fixing the problem for good for the Win of all? A Wikiproject "School Projects" with good ways to proceed, sandboxes, curricula for secondary and college courses, and teacher guides? I mean, it would provide (a) a good frame in which school projects can be made good for the school and not disruptive, (b) encouragement for educators to perceive WP as a valuable resource and (c) training for future editors!

  My training in education is minimal, but I'll give whatever help might be needed; I'm sure we can summon some enthusiasm and participation from educators for this. — Coren  15:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

  • There is such a project at Misplaced Pages:School and university projects, but it only works if instructors know about it and follow the suggestions. In this case, it looks like guidance about WP was lacking and students are unfamiliar with WP policies and guidelines. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I'm guessing this is a course in media studies. Some of the hardest hit articles are Broadcasting. Social aspects of television, Telegraphy, Social determinism, and Technological determinism if anyone wants to do some clean-up. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Might it be a good idea to leave a message on each of these students' talk pages asking them to get their instructor to look at WP:SUP? Better if he does that late than never. JohnCD (talk) 17:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
        • I hope jbmurray won't mind (especially as I don't think it's finished), but his essay at User:Jbmurray/Advice should be required reading for all educators who want to integrate Misplaced Pages into their teaching. EyeSerene 18:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this project arguably even more disrruptive that Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Global Economics from Marshall University, which was discussed at length on ANI in May. This one involves multiple inappropriate edits in multiple exisiting articles with intervening proper edits by others which makes reversion and clean-up very messy. Several of them edit war as well. At least the Marshall project had a central page and identified themselves so we could get in touch with them. This lot are all anonymous and there are now literally dozens of them. I've left messages on the talk pages of quite a few of them asking them to let their instructor know about this thread and Misplaced Pages:School and university projects. I don't know how effective it will be. Voceditenore (talk) 14:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The exact same thing happened with what looks like the same university last year, with similar amounts of less than ideal editing: see here. The instructor was contacted last time, but it doesn't seem to have helped. - MrOllie (talk) 15:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Hopefully they will see it and get in touch. If the disruption gets out of hand, I reluctantly suggest that the alternative is to start issuing temporary blocks until someone talks to us. I hate to paint Misplaced Pages as an unwelcoming place, but we can't forever be doing damage control for these school assignments. EyeSerene 15:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Most of what they've done seems to have been tidied up. The article Hacker ethic has been considerably expanded with, to my mind, too much detail and too many explanations and references. I think the previous version of 23 October is a better article, but rather than just revert, I have made a proposal to do so on the talk page. Comments welcome. JohnCD (talk) 17:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Identification

The course is MAS 229 at Macquarie University. The "G. Meikle" whose book is cited in so many of the edits is the Dr Graham Meikle who runs the course.

Looking at the history of internet activism reveals that this is a problem that has been extant for more than 1 year. Around October 2007, a whole load of users whose names all ended in "MAS 214" edited that article. There are are more at around the same time in the revision history of broadcasting. There are yet more at around the same time in the revision history of photography. There are so many, in fact, that I've had to refactor them out of this text and put them in a table. MAS 214 was another of Dr Meikle's courses.

It appears that Dr Meikle is anually setting xyr students a task of editing Misplaced Pages. You can even read the instructions that the students were given for choosing their account names at User:Wumas214. Uncle G (talk) 16:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It's just an assignment where we edit three wikipedia entries that are relevant to issues discussed in MAS229 (it could just be a few sentences per entry). All entries would be correct, as they are coming from sources approved by the MAS229 course (hopefully they have been cited as needed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stapleymas229 (talk • contribs) 07:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm really uncomfortable listing all these accounts in a table on the main page of WP:ANI. Many of those names appear to consist of first and last names; putting them in a table listing the specific class they are taking at a specific university essentially "outs" people that may have an expectation of privacy here. I've removed the table; it may or may not be appropriate to put that table somewhere else, I'm not quite sure, but I request a discussion take place before it is re-added here. Thanks, and sorry for the trouble. --barneca (talk) 17:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

No trouble barneca, you're right to err on the side of caution. The table may be useful at some point, but it's probably best if it stays out of sight for now. The thought occurs that a discussion of privacy issues should have been part of these students' preparations for their assignment... EyeSerene 18:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I'm taking it that "G. Meikle" doesn't have a Misplaced Pages account? (Against rule one of my, yes, unfinished little essay.) Ugh. Will try to help out with this tomorrow; I'm simply too busy today. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps no account, but one of his students did create an article for Graham Meikle. Perhaps if we delete it, we will get his attention. Just joking... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

How about an AfD? (Seriously - he doesn't appear to meet WP:PROF). JohnCD (talk) 12:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

That (revised) table is really disheartening :( I think that unless we can get some productive communication going, we'll need to close this project down somehow while all those articles are reviewed. Perhaps first though we should allow some time for a response - Dr. Meikle, if you read this thread via Voceditenore's messages on your students' talk pages, could we please ask you to either post here or contact one of us via talk-page/email? EyeSerene 19:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this has already been done, but I've sent an e-mail to Dr. Meikle alerting him to this discussion and the minor controversy around his students' editing. Avruch 19:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad I checked back here first - I just had that same thought and was looking up his email address. Thanks Avruch ;) EyeSerene 20:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone heard anything yet? Actually, looking at the first three articles, maybe Delicious carbuncle wasn't far off the mark. I'm not seeing anything there that meets WP:PROF... EyeSerene 12:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

It would be good to find out who is now running this course. It must have some kind of instructor! --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Failing that, I suggest an email to the head of department. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Update

I've heard back from Dr. Meikle. He no longer works for the university hosting this class (and has not for at least two years apparently). He cc'd my e-mail and his response to the course instructors for this year and last, so I will let you know when I hear from either of them. Avruch 12:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Meikle also requests the deletion of Graham Meikle. I'm willing to take the article to AfD in a day or two if the article does not get deleted as part of the resolution of the larger issue. Avruch 12:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Rather than an AFD, would anyone freak out if I deleted Graham Meikle based on WP:CSD#IAR? It comes very close to an A7 (doesn't quite make it IMHO, but if you think it does that's another way to go), and the subject has requested deletion. Good enough for me... --barneca (talk) 13:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd think that a good idea - it's borderline A7, wouldn't survive an AfD against WP:PROF, not a lot of point taking 5 days over it. JohnCD (talk) 15:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yup, no issues here. I'm not sure how far we normally take subject requests for deletion when the subject is clearly notable, but I don't think that consideration applies here anyway. Btw JohnCD, I didn't see your earlier WP:PROF comment when I posted mine, so apologies for the unnecessary duplication (but we're obviously thinking on the same lines!) EyeSerene 15:17, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm good with an A7 deletion as well, but someone placed the tag earlier and it was removed shortly thereafter by a non-admin (I believe). I've posted a prod just in case you (barneca) decide not to delete it A7. Avruch 17:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Deleted; will restore and take it to AFD upon request. Thanks for the feedback. --barneca (talk) 17:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not freaking out, but can we take this to AFD? Despite the subject's off-hand request, they do seem to be notable. I know this will seem pointy, but why don't we have a policy for subject-requested deletions? That's not a rhetorical question, but this isn't the thread for an answer. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Withdrawing my request for AFD. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well, a response is good news at least. If we can turn this around into a productive exercise, that would be great. However, I don't want to get too optimistic just yet. EyeSerene 12:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
• He needs to get the University to fix its web site, then. Its 2008 course handbook (linked-to above) lists him explicitly as the staff contact for these courses, and he is still listed as a senior lecturer in the Department of Media staff listing (also linked-to above). Uncle G (talk) 13:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
  • He noted that the university had not updated its website (which I can believe, looking at it). The signature on his e-mail states that he is a senior lecturer at the University of Stirling. Avruch 13:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
    • When people in the world at large are affected by actions resulting from one of its courses, it's not very helpful of Macquarie University to be publishing incorrect staff contact details. ☺ I've crossed off the relevant part of the table title. I've also asked for general editor assistance in the task of review. I'm sure, by the way, that I haven't listed all of the affected articles. I didn't find all of the accounts and what articles they had touched, and new students were still creating accounts yesterday. Uncle G (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
• There's a more general email address for the Media dept. at Macquarie University here. Probably worth a try. Their blurb says it's "Australia's Innovative University". Ahem... Voceditenore (talk) 13:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

  Maybe they'd better slow down the emphasis on being "innovative" and start teaching some of their students to write coherently. I cleaned up two of the articles so far, and the writing style was positively ghastly. Gladys J Cortez 16:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm engaged in an interesting e-mail conversation with Dr. Meikle, but I have not yet heard back from the current course instructor. Perhaps we have an Australian editor who can call? Avruch 22:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello. I just wanted to introduce myself. I am John Scannell, and I am the convenor of the subject (MAS229) that has made life difficult for some of you. First of all, I do apologise for the inconvenience, and yes, if you have to correspond about this "incident" - then don't direct your correspondence to Graham Meikle, but to me. I am now the convenor of the course, and quite frankly had no idea that this project would be considered so disruptive. As someone who values Misplaced Pages, I did not realise that the actions of the students would have created such a controversy. Yes, I did take part in the project again this year, and yes, I was aware of the problems of last year. At the beginning of the semester, I proposed that we should create our own Wiki, so as not to raise the ire of Misplaced Pages again in 2008. However, after consultation with peers and open source advocates, I thought that what we were doing was entirely within the spirit of open collaboration? My predecessor, Dr. Meikle, and myself both did our best to advise the students to treat their editing with appropriate care and concision as to make valuable contributions to a valuable resource. With the problems of last year in mind, I told them to act responsibly, and to put "quality" over "quantity", don't go in and "slash and burn", make the most appopriate edits etc...I can assure you that, as best I could, I tried to steer them in the right way. Of course, given the fact that I have 100 odd students, its hard for me to do anything else but hope they act on my advice. That said, as someone who has a very strong interest in valourising the contributions to open source culture, via Linux, via Misplaced Pages et al, I am somewhat shocked that contributions made in good faith would attract such derision. Yes, I can understand that many students, will only contribute to Misplaced Pages for this subject and may never contribute again. One hopes, that some will have enjoyed this exercise to the extent that they might be valued contributors in the future. The success of the project is based on collaboration, no? Am I being too naive here? I know that doesn't mean that its a free for all...and if the students haven't acted appropriately, I will sort them out, personally. However, I think you know, as well as I, that open source can also have its element of "exclusivity", and that newcomers need to pay their dues etc, before getting their hands dirty...which is understandable in some respects, but on the other side of the coin, only a very small number of these students had ever contemplated contributing to an open source project and this project is undertaken with the hope that some of them will value the experience enough to contribute in the future... If some of the writing is "positively ghastly", then it is constructive peer review that can assist them in becoming better writers. I mean, come on, there is poor writing all over Misplaced Pages. Again, I'm not happy about this...but none of them were acting unethically, none of them were trying to do anything other than contribute to the project AS BEST THEY CAN. So basically, what do you want to do here, keep it egalitarian, or not? Chances are, that after two years of problems surrounding this assignment, that I, personally, WON'T attempt it again. So there you go, that's 100 potential contributors (even if only a small percentage will contribute again) that you've lost. The point is, that every potential contributor has to start somewhere. You did, right? --Scannell229 (talk) 07:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I should also add that I am so very grateful to those who DO expend so much time and effort in contributing to Misplaced Pages. Your comments, for better or worse, are actually very instructive indeed, and I will be making use of them when MAS229 reconvenes in the next couple of days. FYI, The students won't be making any further entries. The assignment is now over. --Scannell229 (talk) 08:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

One small comment: If you're going to conduct such a large scale "experiment" or "project" on Misplaced Pages, you should notify people on Misplaced Pages, if only out of common courtesy. Enigma 09:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I was hoping to phrase this a bit more diplomatically, but frankly I don't believe there's a diplomatic way to make this point: It's not the job of the Misplaced Pages community to teach college students how to write. We're here to write an encyclopedia. Yes, there certainly is "bad writing all over Misplaced Pages"--and we generally deal with that when we find it--but those bad writers are here under their own steam; they weren't told by an authority figure that they HAD to edit Misplaced Pages. Since you are the one who told them to do that, it's incumbent upon you to make sure their writing quality is up to snuff. If, when I was a teacher, I had created an assignment like this, I would have copied the relevant articles into an offline space, had the students make their initial edits, and vetted those edits, both for prose style and for adherence to WP policy, BEFORE allowing them to add their desired content to live article-space. Yes, that would have been a lot of work to do with a group of 100 students; however, that work has now been handed over, in the form of cleanup on dozens of articles, to the larger community of Misplaced Pages editors. In theory, the task you assigned your students is laudable; however, I feel that neither the potential pitfalls, nor the means of avoiding them, were thought through completely. Your assignment considered the aims of your course and of the students taking it; however, it doesn't quite seem that anyone considered whether those aims meshed with the more-general aims of Misplaced Pages. Since the assignment is now over, the issues raised here are now moot, but please consider them while developing similar tasks in the future. Thank you. GJC You were saying? 16:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that puts it very well. As a community we are pretty obliging, and if we're forewarned about this sort of thing we're only too happy to help out. We've had some incredibly successful academic projects, (see WP:MMM, WP:NRG and WP:WAPB; latter two still ongoing) but they've only worked so well because they were designed to integrate with Misplaced Pages's editing and article policies, and the teachers and lecturers concerned ensured both they and their students were operating together with the Misplaced Pages community. Our purpose here, as GJC has said, is to build an encyclopedia; advocating an open-source philosophy is almost an incidental by-product. Misplaced Pages can be successfully used as a educational tool (as shown by the projects I've mentioned above) but only in very specific ways, and only as long as an improvement in article content - in line with Misplaced Pages policies - is the result. We have no wish to deter you from contributing in the future, but please consider following the advice on User:Jbmurray/Advice and some of the other links hereabouts, and giving us some warning next time ;) EyeSerene 23:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, consider me admonished. This was the first time that I took over this course project, so there are things that I would absolutely do differently if I had a chance to do it again. At least I now know who to liase with! Again, I apologise for any disruption to your work.--Scannell229 (talk) 11:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that while zealous moderation has its advantages, in this case it's perhaps a little too zealous. I've no doubt that the majority of the information added by MAS229 students was largely unnecessary - one of the problems with assigning students a compulsory editing task on a small range of subjects - but there may have been, in the spirit of Misplaced Pages, valuable additions made to subjects. While it's unfortunate the task of clean-up falls to Misplaced Pages's editors, is this not just a drop in the proverbial ocean of edits made per day? I don't know why this rated several pages of discussion - apart from the fact that all students had names ending in 214 or 229, there would be no way of knowing whether this was a class project or a series of independent edits. This doesn't sit particularly well with the collaborative, open-source nature of Misplaced Pages in my opinion.--CsimpsonMAS229 (talk) 01:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposal?

I realise that a formal proposal should go elsewhere but it might be opportune to float it briefly here first:

Perhaps the Create account page could have one more field as follows:

Is this account being created as part of an organised study or training activity: Yes/No.

If No then there is no difference form now.

If Yes then a form is presented asking for such things as Name/identifier of course, organising institution, course supervisor's wiki account. A user page for the new account is template preloaded with the above wiki linked details, with a reading list of instructions, guidelines and essays on wikipedia as the subject of a course.

While this might not eliminate all such problems, it might stop the vast majority of them.

Peet Ern (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Tiptoety's block of user:Boodlesthecat

• Tiptoety (talk · contribs)
• Boodlesthecat (talk · contribs)

Tiptoety blocked Boodles for two weeks, claiming that he violated his self-imposed 1RR restriction. The "violation" at hand was the reinsertion of info removed by Poeticbent (talk · contribs) over an hour after removing an in-line tag placed by Piotrus (talk · contribs).

Assuming there was 1RR violation, the two week block is extreme. A tag removal followed an hour later by a reinsertion of content is not in the spirit of edit warring.

But more importantly, there was no 1RR violation. Some Background: There is this huge arbitration case going on in which a major part of the issues there are the alleged tag-teaming of Polish nationals who are trying to whitewash alleged Polish anti-semitism. This is not the place to rehash these issues. But what's important about this arbitration is that in the original self-imposed 1RR agreed to by Boodles - which is the basis for this block - the restrictions were limited to reverts of neutral editors. This is the relevant discussion at ANI:

But here's my predicament--given that Piotrus works in concert with others--is 1RR practical without having it apply to his team? Boodlesthecat Meow? 04:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please see my message above: "1) Piotrus reverts 2) Boody reverts 3) neutral user X reverts to Piotrus version 4) Boody reverts him." - simply reverse it so that you are the first one to revert. Tiptoety talk 04:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Since Piotrus has a number of IRC and IM "admirers", happy to blindly revert to Piotrus's versions I doubt that it would work, but we can try (edit conflict) Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Who is this "neutral user X" of whom you write? It often feels like there are battle lines drawn at the articles related to Polish-Jewish history. It sometimes seems like Piotrus and other editors are engaged in tag-team editing, and it no doubt seems to him like Boodlesthecat and I do the same thing. I have a feeling that this is going to lead to edit-warring by proxy, but I suppose it's worth a try. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Any random user, a third party if you may. Tiptoety talk 04:52, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Ironically enough, it was Tiptoey that agreed to the "neutral editor" condition. The block of Boodles is based on the assumption that the second revert was a revert of a "neutral editor". However, this is clearly not the case. The condition was established for this very situation, a situation in which one of the alleged tag-teamers reverts to version that is in agreeance with the other tag-teamer. Piotrus (talk · contribs) and Poeticbent (talk · contribs) which were the two editors that were reverted by Boodles are accused of tag-teaming. Thus, per the above discussion, they were explicitly excluded from the 1RR restrictions imposed unto Boodles. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. Yes, there is a huge arbcom, but concerned mostly with other things. Boodlesthecat has edit warred and clearly broken (R1: ; R2: ) the 1RR restriction (which is why his unblock request has been declined three times today - and since when we allow a user to ask for an unblock three times within three hours anyway? what is it, unblock roulette? - and this is why Tip, who has designed the 1RR in the first place, enforced in the way he did), nobody else has done anything wrong (I have not reverted there, and Poeticbent is not close to 3RR and not under any restriction, and his involvement there, - as the creator of the article - is quite understandable, no conspiracy theories needed to explain it). Not surprisingly, the ArbCom member Kirill has proposed the following findings: Boodlesthecat banned as well as There is no definitive evidence that Piotrus is responsible for any of the off-wiki editing coordination that occurred in this case. I certainly resent the accusations of tag teaming / meatpuppetry; they are unprovable slander in any case, and not something I'd expect from another admin (some may want to brush up on AGF and similar policies, and concentrate on dealing with disruptive users, not defending them - and for who is a disruptive user here, just look at Boodlesthecat's block log). If Brewcrewer wants to look into some serious issues, why not check this BLP report, for example? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus might also want to note that ArbCom member Kirill has also proposed that Piotrus shall be assigned one or more volunteer mentors, who will be asked to assist him in understanding and following policy and community practice, and particularly in avoiding further involvement in edit-warring. Boodlesthecat 15:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This is what I hoped would not happen here - a rehashing of the arbitration case. The only issue here is whether Boodles violated the 1RR restrictions. He did not.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:05, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The 1RR restriction aside, there was clearly edit warring going on beyond or right at the limit of normal policy. The edit warring was not sterile - there was talk page discussion - but none of the parties did the right thing and used self-restraint on the article while discussing to consensus on talk.

Piotr and Poeticbent deserve slaps on the wrist and the usual "Please stop that and don't do it again". Boodles, with significant history of warnings and blocks for edit warring, could legitimately be blocked for it, though I would personally have treated all three equally in the name of fairness.

I see no reason to overturn the block. A 1 RR restriction with some exceptions is not a license to edit-war the exceptions. It's a notification that someone has been edit warring more than usual and is discouraged from doing it much more if at all. Asking to overturn this on the technicality is missing the point. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

A technicality is the only basis for this block. If you look closely at the edit history of the article you will see that most of Boodles edits were accepted. The edit warring, although not acceptable, fell far short of the 3RR standard. The only way to get a block in was though the 1RR technicality. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

He added a controversial para, removed a tag I added to it, and then restored the para after Poeticbent removed it. This is no technicality - this is pure edit warring to one's version, and his edits are far from "accepted" (nobody has reverted to his version).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

He made plenty of other edits besides for the reinsertion of a paragraph (that was removed sans discussion). In any case, at most, he's only halfway toward a 3rr. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is disputing his minor edits, and he is on 1RR restriction, so being halfway towards a 3RR... QED, I think.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly! The 1RR restriction is inapplicable here because none of the editors involved were "neutral" as defined in the 1RR agreement. The only legit way to block him is through 3RR, which he does not meet in this case. It is most blatantly wrong to establish specific rules for people and then just block them anyway despite their abidance with the rules. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be under a misconception - 3RR is not an entitlement that one may revert three times before there's a problem. 3RR is a bright line in the sand that you shall not go past this limit, and behavior short of 3RR may well constitute edit warring, which is the practice that we actually block for. People who edit war over and over again may be blocked for edit warring before they reach 3 reverts. Anyone who's been put under a 1RR restriction should know better and just avoid doing it.

We gave the guy very strict and very specific rules regarding reverts. He abides by those very strict rules, and then we block him anyway. That is wrong under any moral standard. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Repeating myself, but... Edit warring is prohibited and 3RR is not an entitlement to revert three times. See Misplaced Pages:3RR#Not an entitlement which specifically states:

The three-revert rule limits edit warring. It does not entitle users to revert a page three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique. Disruptive editors who do not violate the rule may still receive a block for edit warring, especially if they attempt to game the system by reverting a page. Administrators take previous blocks for edit warring into account, and may block users solely for disruptive edit warring.

The bottom line: use common sense, and do not participate in edit wars. Rather than reverting repeatedly, discuss the matter with others; if a revert is necessary, another editor may do it, which will demonstrate a consensus for the action. Request page protection rather than becoming part of the dispute by reverting.

Please don't reply in all-bold. It is condescending and thus uncivil. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:14, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The only part that's bold is the quote from policy, and only to distinguish it from my comment. This is used elsewhere. I had to include more of the policy as a quote, as essentially all of that policy section was directly relevant... The size of the bold block is therefore perhaps unfortunately unusually large. But I didn't use bold emphasis other than for typographical reasons. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

People who have previously been blocked for edit warring or 3RR violations, especially those under special restrictions such as a 1RR restriction, must not push the limit by edit warring. The behavior is not OK. Whether they specifically violate their additional restrictions or not, the behavior is prohibited. People should not do it on Misplaced Pages. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:58, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Side note: Piotr complained on my talk page that I incorrectly characterized his edits in my first comment above. On review, he's correct, he didn't participate in edit warring on the article. He only made one edit after the point that the edit warring began, and that was a harmless wikilink not involved in the back and forth others were doing. My apologies for the mischaracterization... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

If he is on 1RR, he can be blocked for it, otherwise we wouldn't bother issuing it in the first place. 1RR are simple creatures: if you revert more than once, you break them. Boody is not to revert on articles I edit more than 1RR (and vice versa), not counting tiny stylistical/MOS changes and other AGF exceptions - of which removing a tag and restoring a controversial para are not. It doesn't matter whom he reverts, or what (per WP:3RR. Revert is a revert - again, those are pretty simple creatures. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

He never reverted you more then once. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

So? He reverted somebody else, 1+1=2. Perhaps you are laboring under a miscomprehension: Boodlesthecat 1RR restriction is not limited to reverting me, I am the one who triggers it: as long as we are editing the same article, we are not to revert anybody more than once. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The "anybody" must be a neutral editor. I am sorry if I was no being clear enough, but the "neutral" aspect is the whole point. The "neutral" condition was established because of the concern (I have no opinion about its legitimacy) that since Polish editors are tag-teaming, a 1RR scheme would result in an unfair disadvantage to Boodles. The "neutral" condition was specificaly created for a situation like this - you add, Boodles reverts, an alleged tag-teamer adds, Boodles revets. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid you are mistaken (and consider for a moment that Tip who created this restriction reviewed this case and carried it out). The restriction was created to stop Boodlesthecat from edit warring (see his block record). The word neutral was used without much thought and not defined, and was clarifed below - in the fragment you cite - by Tip himnself as random, which fits the situation better (because neutrality is in the eye of the beholder). If admins involved in 1RR had to review and argue who is neutral and who is not, this would be unenforceable (hence it is never an issue on ANI/3RR). The 1RR restriction had and has nothing to do with any tag team accusations. ArbCom, although not done, indicates (via the proposed finding I cited above) that arbitrators have not found any evidence form Polish editors tag teaming, and I would ask you not to repeat such slanderous, bad faithed accusations. If you have proof that Poeticbent and I are part of a tag team, please present your evidence in the arbcom.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I specifically stated earlier that I have no opinion regarding the tag-team accusations. But whether they are true or not, they were the basis of the "neutral editor condition" in the 1RR agreement - the basis for this block - so we have no choice but to deal with it. Please see the part of the previous ANI discussion that I copy and pasted above. From the discussion and subsequent agreement is it clear that the editors that are part of the tag-team accusations are not considered random and neutral for 1RR purposes. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:11, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

This is putting an argument on its head. Let me illustrate the fallacy of your logic: 1) 1RR is designed to prevent edit warring 2) 1RR if applied globally to all reverts by a user prone to edit warring prevents edit warring 3) 1RR if applied to only reverts of one specific user is unlikely to prevent edit warring between the user prone to edit warring and other users. Again: the restriction means we are not supposed to revert anybody on affected articles more than once per day, there is no discussion of "but I thought he was tag teaming with him", which could excuse ALL reverts and make the 1RR restrictions completely pointless. Oh, and don't forget that for your argument to be valid you have to prove I was tag teaming with Poeticbent - and since you said yourself "I have no opinion regarding the tag-team accusations", what's the point of this discussion? Excuse me, but I am not a fan of wikilawyering over a tiny technicality, when the big picture is obvious (1RR was designed to stop an estabilished edit warrior and was implemented when 1RR was broken, case closed).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Only those that are part of the tag-team accusations, which if I'm not mistaken is around 5 editors and includes Poeticbent , are considered non-neutral for purposes of the 1RR rule. But in response to your general point, I understand that, rules aside, there should never be a spirit of edit-warring. However, in this situation, where we are dealing with an editor who is under an extreme and strict 1RR standard, it is immoral and wrong to use the very strict rule which he agreed to abide by as the basis for his block when he never broke the rule. I am turning in for the night so I won't see any replies. Good night. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

How come, with all these unsubstantiated ArbCom accusations repeated against me by Brewcrewer in defence of Boodlesthecat above, nobody but Piotrus cared to let me know about this discussion at its final stage. I wrote the article which took days of painstaking effort. Immediately, I was faced with a barrage of attacks that went on for days. Boodlesthecat tried to destroy my 32 KB creation in a maddening spree that began with a request for speedy deletion and claims of copyvio based on a meagre few words from the source. And now, you say I was tag-teaming? Based on what proof? His empty claims? Boodlesthecat has been slandering people for months. And, speaking of 1RR, who is that mysterious neutral editor in this instance, a Martian from planet Mars? How would you feel, if your fresh new article was being defaced with a bunch of loaded messages based in ethno-specific spin? 1RR, 2RR or 3RR, I don't care about Boodlesthecat's agreement reached with Piotrus, or its technicalities. What I care about is a nightmare he's put me through already. --Poeticbent talk 19:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

It's clear by now that

1. Boodlesthecat did not technically violate his 1RR restriction.
2. If he was blocked simply for edit-warring, then so to should his opponents have been blocked for edit-warring.
3. A two week block is, in any event, an extraordinarily long block.

Can someone please present a rationale why his block should not be lifted at this point? He has already served 30 hours of a technically invalid block. Jayjg 05:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

But he did violate it. He made 2 rather clear reverts of the same content within a ~2 hour period. If you are thinking that he did not violate it because the other party who reverted was not "neutral" enough is not really applicable here. Where is there actual evidence to support the claims that these two users are tag teaming? And whether it was a user who supported Piotru's view or not, it does not make it alright for Boodles to simply revert it. Just because Poeticbent makes a edit/revert does not mean it is a open door for Boodles to revert that edit. Tiptoety 05:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious to see what Jayjg's response is to this - merely saying it is technically invalid doesn't make it invalid. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Saying it was technically invalid means that one should give Boodlesthecat more leeway, as he no doubt reverted Poeticbent under the quite accurate view that he was in no way a "neutral third party". I've clarified further on Tiptoety's talk page. Jayjg 02:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The original conditions that you and Boodles agree upon were based on the accused tag-teamers, not proven tag-teamers. When you made the agreement a month ago there was no proof that they were tag teamers, yet you agreed that alleged non-neutral tag-teamers are not part of the 1RR conditions. Now you want proof that they are tag teamers?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no that was not my intention. I never specified "accused tag teamers" I just said "neutral third party", so that is clearly open to interpretation. Either way, I have offered to allow a uninvolved admin unblock if they see fit on my talk page, I would appreciate if someone less involved would mind reviewing this. Thanks, Tiptoety 06:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

That might have not been your intention, but what you said was in direct response to Malik Shabazz's concern what he explicitly called "tag team"'s. A most reasonable understanding of the colloquy and its subsequent 1RR agreement is that the accused tag teamers are not part of the 1RR conditions. Anyway, kudos to you for offering another admin to review this block. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

And so three admins have reviewed the block after three requests of unblock by Boodlesthecat on his talk, and they upheld it. Further, there is certainly no consensus or even slight majority for unblock here. And given his history of blocks, longer and longer blocks are fully justifiable - particularly as he is not showing any remorse. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, I wonder if your continued defense of Boodlesthecat is because you think he did nothing wrong - or because you support his content POV? After all, you have often reverted to his version and supported him on talk. At the very least, forgive me for not treating your input here as completly neutral. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

If your question is "Do you share Boodlesthecat's concerns that a number of members of the Portal:Poland/Poland-related_Wikipedia notice board, supported by User:Piotrus, are busy inserting into a series of articles the victim blaming POV that Polish antisemitism was caused by the Jews themselves, using dubious, revisionist, extremist, and in some cases out-right antisemitic sources, and tag-teaming anyone who attempts to bring the articles into line with policy?", then I would have to answer "Yes, like a number of editors, I am concerned about this." Jayjg 02:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I've reviewed this entire issue here and on Tiptoety's talk page. On the one hand Boodlesthecat was edit warring. On the other hand, so were his opponents, and it is not completely clear whether he broke his 1RR restriction or not. As the blocking admin has said he would not object if an uninvolved admin unblocked, and as Boodlesthecat has already been blocked for 3 days, and indicated he will be more careful in his editing, I am unblocking. I recommend that both sides in this be very careful about edit warring here. Khoikhoi 02:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks Khoikhoi, I just hope we are not right back here in a few weeks (though I do not have high hopes) :-/ Tiptoety 03:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Please review this case

I don't know what to do. There is a single-purpose account user who is active solely on cold fusion named User:Pcarbonn. We know that he is a partner in a company that is trying to sell thin-film technology to cold fusion researchers and is hoping to promote cold fusion here on Misplaced Pages. How do I know this? Well, for one, he says as much on his user page and here off-wiki. I've filed conflict-of-interest reports, but the board seems to think that we should refer it to administrator review. So I ask someone to review this case. Should User:Pcarbonn be as active as he is in trying to advance cold fusion here on Misplaced Pages? What should we do about it?

ScienceApologist (talk) 05:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Is he doing some advertising, astroturfing or such? If not, COI in mind, experts are welcome to contribute on subjects of their interest (and expertise). If an expert contributes to a subject he is an expert on, it's not a problem as long as he adheres to NPOV, V and so on. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

He is definitely POV-pushing a pro-cold fusion viewpoint which, of course, is in his own best interest considering that his company would benefit if people began to take this idea seriously. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

What is the evidence that Pcarbonn stands to benefit or not from the content of the Cold fusion article? I would also like to know what ScienceApologist means by his recent strong words toward the most recent content mediator of the article. IwRnHaA (talk) 20:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• I propose to block the account indefinetly as a single purpose account with a conflict of interests pushing a marginal theory. Any objections? Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• I am not objecting, not knowing enough about this case, but I will not support: POV pushing is allowed (per NPOV, editors are expected to have a POV). Moderating one's POV is of course recommended :) Is he being disruptive? Edit warring, harassing others...? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, the history of cold fusion is extremely contentious. Most of the people who are not cold fusion advocates editing that page thinks he is problematic and should be removed. An example would be this comment by User:Kirk shanahan (someone whom Pcarbonn derides personally -- and falsely, I might add -- on his user page), an expert in cold fusion, who writes the following: . I should note that Shanahan has expressed that he has felt almost hounded off Misplaced Pages due to Pcarbonn's tendentious and disruptive gaming of Misplaced Pages conventions. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I note that User:Kirk shanahan (contribs) continues to contribute to Cold fusion and Talk:Cold fusion on a regular basis. IwRnHaA (talk) 20:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I think blocking is a bit premature. There is some history that might stand to be reviewed first, I think. ++Lar: t/c 05:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I would encourage people to please review the history. I have a very hard time getting anyone willing to do this. Lar, do you want to review it for us? I'm not a big fan of people asking for a "review" and then not being willing to do it themselves. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

This is covered by Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. WP:AE is the appropriate place to go. The way you get an administrator to review the history is if you post a list of policies violated with a few sample diffs. Jehochman 05:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Goddamn it, why can't we review it here? If I file a Pseudoscience claim, I am going to have to argue for proper jurisdiction over there since cold fusion is probably pathological science and not pseudoscience. I'm tired of being subjected to the bureaucratic runaround. I've been complaining about this for a long time and I just want someone to look over it carefully. There seem to be some outsiders here who are willing to do this. I've provided diffs here. Isn't that enough? ScienceApologist (talk) 06:01, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

You already filed a report at WP:COIN. Could you link to that please. There are administrators who patrol that board. In what way is this not forum shopping? If you need more admins, post a request asking for help. Don't start a new discussion. Jehochman 06:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's the link. I was under the impression that the COIN result that YOU yourself wrote was that it wasn't a COI issue. I interpret that to mean that it should be brought up somewhere else. So if I'm forum shopping, it's because I'm following your instructions. (And now you're telling me to go to yet ANOTHER forum.) ScienceApologist (talk) 06:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Pcarbonn is certainly relevant. And the time-line on his userpage would seem to provide his version of the history. Eluchil404 (talk) 05:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

That timeline in his userpage is interesting. I found this line September 2008: Dr. Shanahan wants his work to be promoted in our article. I resist, on the basis that scientists should not contribute content about their own work. to be particularly so. Somehow Pcarbonn feels it's acceptable for someone who's financially invested in a particular POV for an article, or an "expert" to edit it - but not this guy? After reviewing quite a few of Pcarbonn's contributions, he's clearly an SPA and one with a substantial conflict in editing as there is the possibility of real personal gain by inserting his POV in the article. Looking at the substance of the material he's added to the article, he does appear to strongly push a particular viewpoint and solely insert content favorable to that view. I'm pretty confused by the previous COI threads where editors said "well, as long as he plays by the rules" - since when is long term POV pushing directly related to one's own interests "playing by the rules"? I see no reason that Pcarbonn should be editing any article related to cold fusion. Shell 06:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, to expand, the "financial investment" is something which troubles me greatly but for some reason didn't fly on COI. I don't know why. I had another cold fusion advocate angrily retort that my evidence that he had a financial stake in cold fusion was basically made out of whole-cloth (User talk:ScienceApologist#COI evidence) and then decided to request that I stop editing cold fusion altogether (User talk:ScienceApologist#Request for a voluntary topic ban) since he didn't like the fact that I pointed out that the company in which Pcarbonn is involved makes products used in various cold fusion advocates' claims. Just another day in the life.... ScienceApologist (talk) 06:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

So topic ban him. ~ L'Aquatique! 06:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Support Alex Bakharev (talk) 09:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The accusations of SA are baseless. I don't have any share in MEMS Instruments. MEMS Instruments has no interest in cold fusion, and SA has not provided any evidence to the contrary. In any case, SA has not demonstrated any wrong behavior of my part. I have always provided reliable sources in support of my edits, and I have written for the enemy. This is a content dispute, and several other editors have the same opinion as mine. Content dispute are not resolved by ejecting users, but by abiding to WP policies and mediation. These policies have worked in the past, and I have always respected them. I'm ready to go to mediation again if needed to resolve this content dispute. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

As for the accusation of Single purpose account, Sa must have not looked. I invented the To-do list mechanism, and I have written 2 user scripts recently . Pcarbonn (talk) 09:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

As for Shanahan, I objected about him writing 4 paragraphs about his own papers on cold fusion. I did not object to his contributing to other parts of the article. Pcarbonn (talk) 10:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Clear COI, POV editing, and an uncivil attitude. It'll also show whether he's an SPA or not. Verbal chat 10:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:SPA is an essay, not a policy and in any case doesn't indicate that SPA's aren't allowed. Pcarbonn does not edit tendentiously, but rather seeks consensus on the talk page and cites reliable sources. That SA happens to disagree with Pcarbonn's POV is not sufficient to disqualify him from editing the page. Ronnotel (talk) 11:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - I disapprove of ScienceApologist's use of Misplaced Pages's procedural tactics to impose his point of view and censor others', because he has also tried to use them on me. I strongly support his efforts, for example, on homeopathy, but in the case of cold fusion the peer-reviewed scientific literature is clear: There is still a controversy and it is entirely premature to scrub the article (and its introduction) of subject matter which varies from ScienceApologist's absolutist tendencies. IwRnHaA (talk) 20:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not votes for banning. Please stop. WP:AE is that way. As I said above, you have a perfectly good arbitration case that can be used to topic ban somebody who causes disruption. Starting a lengthy thread here just to get lots of attention is not being fair to the user at all. Even if they ultimately need to be banned, we should still treat them fairly. Whipping up a frenzy on ANI is not the way to do this. Jehochman 12:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, can you explain what difference it makes whether this shows up on AE or here? ScienceApologist (talk) 12:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:AE is the place to get arbitration decisions enforced. What you are doing here is creating a big fuss for no reason. You're duplicating a discussion that was already held at Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_27#Request for injunction against Cold Fusion investor where you were warned about the risks of speculating on the real world identity and activities of other editors. If there is actual disruption, please go to WP:AE with diffs in hand and make your request. That board is watched by administrators with the most experience in these matters. You'll get the most accurate result there with the least fuss. Jehochman 13:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Jehochman. I encourage everybody to have a hard look at the harrassment behavior of SA towards me. How come that he is the only one to come after me ? I have been judged, and cleared, about possible COI. There is a principle in law that someone not be judged several times for the same issue. It should apply on WP too. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to take this opportunity to officially "speculate" that when User:Pcarbonn writes Hi, my name is Pierre Carbonnelle he is not lying about his identity. So... do I get blocked for outing an individual now? SHEFFIELDSTEEL 17:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Pcarbonn is an aggressive PoV pushing editor who acts uncivilly. In a recent post PCarbonn mentions that some of his edits had been made because of a 'need' to harass SA. Misplaced Pages does not need editors who feel the need to harass those who disagree with them. --Noren (talk) 17:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

What is requested here? If you want a block for harassment, post diffs. If you want a topic ban, your best bet is to use the arbitration case. I don't see a community topic ban materializing. Sleuthing and making remarks about editors' real world activities are discouraged. Normally a COI case happens when an editor writes about themselves or their company. Writing in a biased way about a subject, such as cold fusion, can be dealt with as a violation of NPOV. It is not COI. Therefore, talk about identity is not helpful. In the present case, I have not seen a sufficient weight of diffs to support a block or ban. They might exist, but those advocating for sanctions need to dig them up. Don't come here with conclusory assertions, please. Jehochman 18:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

We seem to have a reasonable community ban discussion on-going here. Since a recent rfc just said that Cold Fusion does not equal Pseudoscience, I think it would be a slap in the face to tell the community it was wrong and decide to set sanctions under that case anyways. If you don't want to participate in this discussion or look through the contribs yourself, that's up to you, but please stop trying to derail the discussion or move it elsewhere. Just in case my earlier post wasn't clear, I would strongly support a topic ban and suggest starting it at 6 months - this gives him time to show he's not here only for that purpose and to better learn how NPOV works. Shell 19:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be a far more reasonable and balanced discussion if we were also considering whether ScienceApologist's use of forum shopping in raising the same issue here after it had been resolved elsewhere is also grounds for a topic ban. IwRnHaA (talk) 20:37, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I think if SA had brought up an NPOV or SPA issue on a COI noticeboard (alphabet soup!) he probably would have rightly been told that wasn't the correct venue. Shell 21:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

That is essentially what happened. Shell, can you link to the RFC that said Cold Fusion is not Pseudoscience. If SA had come here and disclosed the COIN thread we already had, and pointed out the RFC that says this topic isn't under pseudoscience, I would not have objected. It also would have been good form to post diffs of the poor conduct at the outset. Perhaps we should close this thread and start over with all the relevant facts at WP:AN. If you read the header, you will see that is the recommended place for ban discussions. Stuff on ANI tends to get quickly archived. AN is slower moving, better for that sort of discussion. Jehochman 05:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is the link to the RfC on CF as pseudoscience. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, the relevant link is Misplaced Pages:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_bureaucracy. The matter has already been to mediation, the COIN thread closed weeks ago, and it only takes a scroll down Pcarbonn's main user page to find an articulate argument against AE. Rather than drag out this long thread even further with more quibbles over venue and disclosure, suggest either refocusing attention to the main issues at hand or yielding the discussion to those who do. Durova 06:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Please note that mediation resulted in Cold Fusion being presented as a valid scientific controversy (see here. My edits are perfectly in line with the results of the mediation. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I support a block on Pcarbonn for the reasons mentioned by SA and Verbal.--OMCV (talk) 15:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Executive summary

A request was made to look into the situation of a particular user, User:Pcarbonn who has been active on cold fusion for some time in strident advocacy of the subject as a legitimate scientific enterprise, somewhat in contradiction to the mainstream consensus on the matter as illustrated by most summaries of the subject in reliable sources. The user, it was pointed out, has a company which may directly benefit from cold fusion promotion and the user has written works outside of Misplaced Pages calling attention to his ability to get cold fusion portrayed in a positive light on Misplaced Pages, in seeming defiance of WP:NPOV. Conflicts between this user and those wanting to present the mainstream, majority opinion of the scientific community that cold fusion is essentially bunk have been unrelenting, and attempts at dispute resolution often were fabulously unsuccessful. Since his involvement with the article, the quality of the article has steadily decreased from its former FA status. It will be delisted from GA any day now. He is not without his supporters (namely User:Ronnotel and User:IwRnHaA) who are both fellow cold fusion promoters that actively work to POV-push pro-cold fusion perspectives both on and off Misplaced Pages. He has worked to marginalize and push off people who disagree with his position in defiance of WP:OWN. He does not do any work on Misplaced Pages outside of cold fusion.

Some questioned whether this was the right venue to discuss sanctions on this particular editor. Consensus seems to be that this is as appropriate a venue as any.

ScienceApologist (talk) 04:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Can you, or somebody else, please post a concise list of diffs showing what you are asserting? Jehochman 15:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, the most significant diff is that between Misplaced Pages and Britannica on the topic of Cold Fusion. If that doesn't concern admins here, I'm not sure what will ... Vesal (talk) 17:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not interested in losing my sysop access for blocking or banning somebody on a whim. We need evidence to show that a sanction is needed. Take a look at User talk:Water Ionizer Research as an example of how to present evidence. Jehochman 18:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Jehochman. Indeed, Misplaced Pages is not an ochlocracy. Pcarbonn (talk) 22:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, unlike Pcarbonn here, I don't have a vested interest in this topic to spend hours assembling evidence. I wonder what drives ScienceApologist to even bother trying to make Misplaced Pages more in line with reputable reference works; but I admire his efforts. Vesal (talk) 22:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

User:BalkanFever and User:Alex Makedon

A content dispute over whether to include Greek in the languages section of the "Republic of Macedonia" article has turned rather ugly. I have been called a "vandal" and "nationalist troll" and compared to Adolphos (Adolf Hitler) and Osama bin Laden by User:BalkanFever for attempting to restore Greek to the list of languages spoken in the country. The fact that Greek is spoken there is confirmed by numerous reputable sources. He and User:Alex Makedon, who has also described my edits as "pure Greek nationalistic propaganda", have tried to argue that the sources are ambiguous. They are not. User:Alex Makedon has also engaged in further insults and threats, apart from violating WP:CANVASS by spamming a plethora of like-minded users to support an AfD nomination he has instigated. Most seriously of all, he has used extremely offensive language against countries and ethnic groups other than his own, referring to Greece in particular as "Hellass", deliberately altering the endonym Hellas in order to render it a compound of hell and the fundamental orifice. After being asked to retract this inflammatory statement, he simply repeated it. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 06:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops called me a ridiculous nationalist for citing the source, among other things. See Talk:Republic of Macedonia#Languages Section for his continuous incivility towards users who disagree with him, accusing everyone of trying to "expunge minorities" etc. He even directed his insults to an outside user (Luka Jačov). BalkanFever 08:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

And Kekrops is hardly innocent when it comes to offending people, continually putting the words Macedonia, Macedonian and Macedonians in scare quotes to assert that the country, ethnic group and language are not the "real" Macedonia/n/s. That's after his continual use of the offensive term "Skopjan" was taken to ANI a while back. More of his incivility: comparing Macedonia to Nazi Germany (funny how he gets hurt if I call him Hitler in retaliation) and accusing me of ethnic nationalism. And no, he wasn't restoring Greek to the list, he added it, probably to further his nationalist motives, but whatever. I don't have time for senseless bickering with him, so hopefully an admin can lay down the law. BalkanFever 09:11, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Cool it guys. BalkanFever and Kekrops, I know you two are perennial sparring partners in all your national disputes, but at heart you love each other. So c'mon now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

All's fair in love... BalkanFever 09:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

To FP: No, I am not going to have a laugh over this spat like I usually do, nor I am not going to let the insults just go by this time. Being called a "nationalist troll" by BalkanFever is nothing new, but his insults have escalated to an altogether different level. Enough is enough. My father's family fought the Nazis during the occupation, and had their home bombed by the German Stukas, for which Germany still refuses compensation. Did his?

To BF: No one is going to force me to call another people "Macedonians" when that is how I identify. My resistance towards your desire to impose your point of view on me cannot reasonably be construed as incivility. The equivalent would be for me to try to coerce you into using Macedonia only for the Greek region. I use the scare quotes because that's what they call themselves, but I don't have to agree with that self-identification, do I? The "ridiculous nationalist" comment was the result of extreme provocation, and was not directed towards you personally, as I didn't bother to check the edit history before posting it. But I stand by my view that seeking to expunge any references to the Greek and Bulgarian linguistic minorities, which incidentally have been restored by a non-ethnic partisan administrator, is an eminent example of ethnic nationalism. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they did fight against the Nazis. Happy now? BalkanFever 11:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The thing that riles me the most about all this is that if I really were a "nationalist troll", I would've certainly opposed the inclusion of "Macedonian" at Greece#Languages from the very outset. Naturally, I've done nothing of the sort. But when I dare to request the bare minimum of reciprocity, and am actually backed up by the sources, I'm an Adolphos. I mean, fuck me. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 11:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Reciprocity has nothing to do with anything. BalkanFever 11:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I meant reciprocal behaviour, not content. That's what the sources are for. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

My few words on the matter:

• User ΚΕΚΡΩΨ has been stubbornly adding the Greek Language among the languages spoken in Macedonia in a total of 8 times up till now in the last few days.
• Despite the fact that there is some pretty strong evidence that the language is not spoken in Macedonia, at least not in a significant number: European Council , United Nations , Britannica encyclopedia , BBC Educational , Eupedia , none of them mentiones the Greek language once in relation to the languages spoken in Macedonia. This has been backed up by many editors also. This user has continued to vandalize tha page.
• The only lame arguments this user uses to support this fantomatic language minority is this web page and even here the Greek it is not clearly stated among the languages of Macedonia. "The number of languages listed for Macedonia is 9." Non of them is Greek. Whatever they ment is not clearly stated.
• The user ΚΕΚΡΩΨ has some bad reputation for using unproper language and racial personal attacks: "Fuck You", "Drop the dead donkey", "That's rather rich coming from a Slav".
• This user has heavily offended Republic of Macedonia refering to it as the nazi Griechenfrei republic just because we do not happen to agree on adding a language that is just ambiguously reported in a single cherry picked irellevant source, that he by some personal reason is insisting on.
• In the bottom line this admin board report he has made is just a WP:GAME to cover his disruptive editing and vandalizing.

I hope you do something about the user ΚΕΚΡΩΨ and his recent (and not so recent) disruptive behaviour. Thank you Alex Makedon (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

As I've stated before, the fact that Greek is absent from your sources does not constitute sufficient evidence to support your assertion that there is no Greek linguistic minority in the country. Omission does not constitute denial. As for my "unproper" language, I have lost my temper on a few occasions but I have also been severely provoked: comparing the exodus of a few thousand refugees on the losing side of the Greek Civil War who escaped with their lives to the genocide of 350,000 Pontic Greeks is more than enough to ignite me. Regarding my calling you a Slav, well, aren't you? "Racial attack"? I don't see it on the list of ethnic slurs. I even qualified the remark by saying that it wasn't intended as a slur, but merely to illustrate the point that you constantly bait Greeks with accusations of a national obsession with the "immutability and continuum of 2500 years of Ancient Hellens", despite being a member of a Slavic ethnic group who calls himself "Alex Makedon"—Alexander and his Macedonians were not a Slavic people. And what's wrong with Drop the Dead Donkey? It was one of the better British comedies of the 90s. I shan't bother replying to the more inane allegations, but the one about my being "alone" is a blatant lie, as a cursory glance at the edit history will confirm. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 13:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Update: Rummaging through edit histories, I've made a rather interesting find. User:Alex Makedon used to be this guy, according to this. And one of the IP's more noxious posts was this, signed Alex Makedon: "Too sad Misplaced Pages is full of Hell Ass Neonazi wishing bloodshearing, wars and ruin just on etnic-national basis to its neighbouring country." Emphasis mine. I rest my case. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 16:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Weren't we talking about Republic of Macedonia Languages related arguments. Even if irellevant i will say a few words on the matters:

1,2 years ago: my noobish second account from my first days on wikipedia is a closed matter in 2007, i still keep linked on my user page "see earlier account Alexander Mak" so all know my "alter ego"

7 months ago: my heavilly provoked comment by the Hellenic Neonazi that were auguring dismembering of Republic of Macedonia and were fueling nationalistic hate among the Albanians in Republic of Macedonia in hope for a new 2001 civil war were in a critical moment for Republic of Macedonia, 5 April 2008 when Greece managed to pospone Republic of Macedonia's NATO access

Again clear attempts to WP:Game and to switch the attention and distracting from the present day ΚΕΚΡΩΨ vandalism, disruptive editing and lack of real eviednce (displayed above) with digging out things closed more than 1 year ago. Its interesting how ΚΕΚΡΩΨ accidently reported me and BalkanFever that again accidently happen to disagree and contrast his lame interpretation of a cherry picked source and speculations over a Greek minority in Republic of Macedonia with solid arguments. I guess gaming with reports was the only thing left to do to push his POV on the page. I expect something is done about the user ΚΕΚΡΩΨ disruptive behaviour. Thank you Alex Makedon (talk) 20:14, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't a one-off remark, it's persistent, inflammatory and unwarranted ethnic baiting of the worst kind. I hadn't realized you'd made the outrageous comment I exposed earlier from your proper user account, and had even engaged in a bout of edit-warring when others tried to remove it. It appears you're hell-bent on denying the existence of Greeks in your country, going so far as to proclaim that "No one in Republic of Macedonia clames to be Greek", despite the nation's official census being entirely unambiguous that the opposite is in fact true. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 20:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

And the insults and intimidation continue... ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 19:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised that Alex Makedon is still editing Misplaced Pages to be honest. In fact I sincerely believe he is a liability to the ethnic Macedonian editors here and they should have acted first.--Avg (talk) 23:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, is anybody going to provide some outside response here? I'm too involved with the various disputes here to take action. Anybody? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Fut. being too involved didn't stop you from asking for User:Crossthets to be indef banned . In fact recently the blocking admin User:Moreschi was sent evidence for another two users User:MacedonianBoy () and User:Mactruth with extremely severe violations and nothing has happened. I'm starting to feel weird here.--Avg (talk) 14:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Of course, being "involved" doesn't stop me from asking for somebody to be banned, just like any other user could, whenever I feel like it. What's the issue? In this case, I personally don't feel like pressing for sanctions, because both BalkanFever and Kekrops, despite the nastiness they sometimes slide into, are probably the most intelligent people on both sides of the dispute, and the ones that are actually able to negotiate in a meaningful way. I prefer to get the more clueless ones banned first. – Moreschi seems to be on a wikibreak or something, that's why he didn't get active quickly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to BalkanFever (my objections have always been only civility-related) but mainly to Alex Makedon. Regarding Moreschi, it's pretty clear from his contributions that he has edited his talk page since the reports, so he chose to ignore them.--Avg (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I've involved myself as well. But it seems that Kekrops provoked - his sources are weak, ambiguous, or don't say what he purports. Alex Makedon's responses were and continue to be uncivil, as have BalkanFever's. They all are close on 3rr, (Kekrops closest, but that's only because it is essentially two to one - still doesn't excuse him deleting my warning); they've all baited. As this page falls within the Macedonia arbitration, an admin should review that page, as well as the editors' block logs.

From the Macedonia enforcement logs we find all three:

• BalkanFever (talk · contribs) placed on supervised editing for two months due to today's big edit-war on Macedonians (ethnic group): see here. Note: I came back to this later to add the time-expiry: user did seem to be genuinely trying to help but fanned the flames by accident. Moreschi 17:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Kékrōps (talk · contribs) placed on revert parole for 2 months due to disruptive edit-warring on Countries bordering the European Union: see here for details. Moreschi 18:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
• Kékrōps (talk · contribs) blocked for 48 hours for violation of revert parole on WP:MOSMAC: and . User has also been engaging in slow edit-warring recently over the templates in dispute. Moreschi 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• Revert parole for Kékrōps (talk · contribs) altered and extended: see here. Moreschi 11:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
• Alex Makedon (talk · contribs) banned from Macedonian + talkpage due to recent disruptive editing. Moreschi (talk) 23:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not, essentially, a content dispute. It is a behavioral issue. At least two of the users are aggressively 'marking territory' whether by using preferred names, or, as in this case, by claiming the existence/non-existence of a group of people in a particular region. The arbitration gives an admin wide discretion in setting sanctions. Please consider how best to use that discretion. Jd2718 (talk) 15:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You say I have provoked, attempting to discredit my sources. One of them, Ethnologue, is widely used throughout Misplaced Pages, especially in regards to lesser-used languages that would otherwise be overlooked by sources such as those promulgated by Alex Makedon, which omit a number of languages spoken in the country in question. The other is entirely unambiguous in its reference to the "Greek-speaking families" of Bitola. These two sources pertain specifically to the present situation, and I have not invoked the multitude of sources which attest to the diachronic presence of Greeks in the area. I must also note that you are not uninvolved in the disputes that fall within the scope of WP:ARBMAC; I recall your rather stubborn assumption of bad faith when I edited Thessaloniki a few months ago to describe it as the "capital of Macedonia, the nation's largest region", a decidedly uncontroversial choice of wording that has stood by consensus since. Your more recent foray into a very minor disagreement between me and BalkanFever pertaining to the perennial Macedonian disambiguation issue simply confirms your involvement. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 15:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

1. In February of this year I opened a discussion on the Thessaloniki talk page, that led to two consecutive small edits (no edit war) that have stood since. 2. I have challenged Kekrops' sources, appropriately, on the article's talk page, Talk:Republic of Macedonia#Sources. 3. Kekrops, please strike the unsupported accusation of bad faith. 4. I started my previous comment by writing that I have involved myself; I'm not sure why you need to note the same. Certainly an administrator looking at the behavior of involved parties would want to at least take a glance at mine. Jd2718 (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

My impression that you were assuming bad faith was based on the tone of your language in your initial post here, in which you claimed that this edit of mine constituted a significant departure from your preferred version, going so far as to accuse me of "breaking the compromise". As other participants confirmed, it simply wasn't, and you acknowledged that perhaps your "initial concern was petty". Could your accusation that my initial edit in this case was "designed to get a rise out of" my "opponents" not be a similarly petty assumption of bad faith? Putting it into perspective may help: we are talking about the inclusion, on the basis of at least two reputable sources, of a single word, "Greek", in a 67-kilobyte article. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 17:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Perspective can be useful. You opened an AN/I thread over an edit war and series of incivil comments, and apparently that single word, "Greek," was the source. You thought it merited admin attention. I agree. Jd2718 (talk) 18:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I did nothing of the sort, thank you very much. I opened this thread only after being likened to Adolf Hitler and Osama bin Laden for wanting to make an edit that would be considered perfectly natural in almost any other country article. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 18:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Those are the incivil comments I was referring to. Jd2718 (talk) 18:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

And I only made those comments after he likened Macedonia to Nazi Germany. BalkanFever 09:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the diff. But after half a day of talk on the talk page, it's blown up again. Luka Jačov used the perjorative Grecoman, and refused to revert himself; now there's a new series of reverts on the article itself (including BalkanFever and Kekrops). Could we get some administrative attention? Jd2718 (talk) 12:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with NikoSilver that Future Perfect's compromise should stay in place until the dispute is resolved. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

John Wilkes Booth and User:Arcayne

A section near the end of the article on John Wilkes Booth has stirred some controversy. See Talk:John Wilkes Booth. In the spirit of cooperation, all involved have discussed possible compromises to problems with undue weight, Wp:Fringe, and WP:Verifiability and WP:Reliable sources. In an attempt to increase awareness of the discussion, I placed an appropriate tag here ], in the section called Booth Escape Theories. The tag was removed by User:Arcayne on at least four occasions ]]]]. The last deletion include the deletion of other information as well. This user has a problem with the tag because, as he puts it, I am the only one who wants the tag. This is not true, since User:Unschool has agreed with the inclusion of the tag. Each deletion includes an edit summery that is not true. User:JGHowes displayed displeasure with the tag, since not all of the references in the section have a verifiability problem. I then placed an appropriate tag on only the citations in question. I did so here,]. That too was reverted here ], and continuing to claim that I am the only one who wants this although the talk page says differant. My intention was to make other users aware that a discussion is ongoing, but it seems that one user does not want that to happen. On the talk page I have been accused of being, and I quote Fucking arrogant and rude] for placing the tag on the section. Even if I am wrong about the information, We should at least be able to place a tag on a section so that others will be aware of a discussion. Can anyone help?--Jojhutton (talk) 20:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, Jojhutton actually seeks to remove the entire section that discusses the (well-cited) conspiracy theories that Booth somehow escaped justice.

Joj first tried to have any mention of the conspiracy theory purged from the Lead (edit-warring in that effort for almost a week). When that failed to find consensus, (s)he then turned to trying to have the section itself removed - ie., no section, no need for the Lead to mention it.

Jojhutton has repeatedly tagged the section noting (in edit summary) that a "verifiability check" is ongoing - a quick check of the user's history indicate no such check existing. When asked to provide a link to this "check"; (s)he finally posted to the RS Noticeboard days later, There, his arguments claiming lack of verifiability have been dismissed by two different editors (neither of them myself). It should be pointed out that the verifiability tag was placed in a section containing verifiabl citations, and lots of them.

Jojhutton's excessive tagging of the section indicate a singular purpose to have the section removed. He misinterprets Misplaced Pages verifiability policy, despite numerous attempts by myself and others to help him/her get up to speed.

He has no consensus for the removal of the section, and the tagging is an attempt to end-run that consensus. He is not - as he has claimed here and elsewhere - 'notifying folk of ongoing discussion'; a simple 'dispute' section tag would address that. That suggestion, as well as that of seeking out sources that explicitly address and contrast the escape theories were repeatedly ignored.

As to the 'fucking arrogant and rude' comment, I should point out that it came from my sheer frustration at having the user ignore good advice from many other editors and continuing to tag the section in an effort to remove the section. Even the kindest of the editors in the article discussion call his attempts to remove the section a "gambit". I found it to be pointy and disruptive, and was not at all gentle in my disapproval of the user attempting to end-run consensus, ergo the comment. Sure, I should have avoided calling a spade a spade. I did in fact apologize for the outburst, but not for the transparent nature of the tagging. The user has less than 2k edits, and likely not yet truly aware that (s)he is not the smartest person in the room while editing in Misplaced Pages. Jojhutton may very well have thought that gaming the system was an appropriate tactic (which makes me sincerely doubt the "newness" of this user).

Lastly, the only person who feels there is a "controversy" with the Booth Escaped section is in fact this user, and this user alone. There is no consensus for either the section's removal or tagging. Maybe this noticeboard can do what the article discussion and the RS noticeboard have clearly been unable to accomplish. - Arcayne () 04:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Arcayne is again misrepresenting the facts. I said the information is being checked for verfiability here ], and I placed the notice here ]. Less than 24 hours later, hardly days later as Arcayne claims. Sorry, but editing wikipedia is not my full time job, so I waited until I had ample time to make a report. As to the two editors who have dismissed my opinion, One is User:JGHowes, who is one of the involved editors, the other added this comment ]. Not exactly the been dismissed that Arcayne made mention of. Arcayne seems to only be able to tell half truths, I have never seen it mentioned that Arcayne had ever suggested a differant tag. If I am wrong, then please provide a link to that suggestion. Arcayne thinks he has consensus, but User:unschool has disagreed with Arcayne as well. It is true, that I think the section should be deleted. It has no place on wikipedia. I was willing to find compromise, but it was met with disdain. Originally the debate was with WP:Undue weight. Arcayne and JGHowes responded to that request by actually making the section longer. That is when I began to scrutinize the sources. My argument is that anything can be sourced, but those sources must meet the criteria for inclusion. Sources based on unreliable facts by biased authors have no place on wikipedia. Arcayne argues that as long as it is sourced, it doesn't matter who says it or why. I tend to take a more realistic view of source material and look at who is making the accuations, especially when it comes to Fringe theories.. My full argument can be found on the talk page, as I do not wish to keep repeating myself.--Jojhutton (talk) 05:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but most of your post is incorrect, Jojhutton. To begin with, you said in your edit summary for the linked edit: "the sources have been nominated for a verifiability check". Yet, no such thing was done. Or at least, not for at least two days. If you meant you were searching on your own, then you should have left the material be and come back when you actually had info. We aren't here to wait on your schedule. Misplaced Pages moves with a pace independent from your own.

As well, thanks for admitting that you wanted to purge the section, and were using tags towards that end. We here call that "gaming the system."

Secondly, I and others suggested different tags, though, as noted before, none would have been best - you are equating the verifiability of the material provided in the cited material with our verifiability policy. They are two different things, as was pointed out t you at least four different times. You aren't a suitable evaluative source to contradict the info presented in a notable, verifiable source.

Thirdly, when it comes to sourced, notable material, it doesn't matter who or why they said/wrote what they did. That they did is the notable event. You need to arrive - and quickly - at the realization and understanding that evaluating why someone makes a citable statement is original research. Your evaluation - as the sole voice of opposition to the current consensus - isn't usable. I understand that hurts your pride, but you need to suck it up. Ask some questions when you are getting reverted, instead of thinking we are all morons who don't appreciate your touted insight into Booth. You may have been here as another user before, but it doesn't appear that you have learned how to actually work with folk. Precisely what compromise had you suggested?

As has been said before, your energies are better directed at adding material that presents a more balanced section (and thereby a better article). Filing an ANI to complain about your incorrect tags getting reverted is hardly an effort in that direction, now is it? - Arcayne () 07:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Not only did he survive, he went on to work for Alexander Graham Bell, helping to develop the Telephone Booth. Baseball Bugs 13:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

That store merged with one of Ice-T's companies, and is now known as "T-Booth". -t BMW c- 18:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I hear there's a small company about to release a gadget called the iBooth, which plays back Shakespeare plays done up like they were on the US east coast during the 1860s. I think stateside and European teens will canny flock to this. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) And then it was bought out by the Toothy Inc. dentistry corporation, which changed the name to Toothy Boothy: Assassinations, good acting and dandy root canal all in one visit. - Arcayne () 18:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Root canals are so cool, but my heart goes aflitter at the (wistful) thought of being able to hear John Booth do Romeo Montague. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

It appears that both jojhutton and Arcayne continue to edit war over this. As I am an involved editor in this instance, it is requested that another admin intervene.  JGHowes 

Actually, i'd chosen to disengage from Joj some hours ago, as the tenor of his edit summaries has grown a bit too aggressive and attacky. Until the lad/lass calms down, things would only get worse by interacting with him/her. And I would cetainly not define keeping the article from becoming a battleground to be 'edit-warring'. - Arcayne () 22:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

All sources must meet the RS standard. If not, then the source is not suitable and can not be used. If content can not be supported by a RS it should be removed. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

That is what I have been trying to say, but somehow Arcayne thinks that I am too new to add a tag. He is only upset, because I don't see things his way. I am the only one actually using wikipedia policy to make a point. Arcayne just wants the section to stay the way it is, and I don't know why.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you are wrong. Yet again. Maybe if you actually read the reasons why you have been incorrect, it might dawn upon you that some of us are (or in my case, were) trying to help you along. You want the section removed, and - for the reasons stated above and elsewhere - think that your personal opinion of the authors cited counts as a "verifiability check". It does not. You are not a part of the verifiability equation that Misplaced Pages uses. I wish you would learn this, because if you are unable to, you are going to butt heads with a great many other editors. - Arcayne () 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of argument, I am not, by myself, able to determine whether or not the sources are verifiable. That is why I continued to place a tag on the section, so that the citations can be looked at by other editors. Without the tag, readers will just think that the sources meet the condition for verifiability. At least with the tag, other editors will have a chance to voice their opinions, but I guess we will never know now, since it has been reverted several times. I even asked the editor who doesn't want the tag, what his impression of the sources are. I am still waiting for a response.--Jojhutton (talk) 04:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Correction: you placed the incorrect tag on the article section, not seeking to draw folk to the discussion, but instead to water down the section by calling the cited info "unverified".

As for my response in that page, I (and others) answered your inquiry at least twice. That you didn't like the answer cannot be blamed upon us. - Arcayne () 22:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Incidently, are you really sure that stalking my edits (1) is the best way to make your point? You never posted to Fitna (film) before today. Hmmm. - Arcayne () 22:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was not the unverified tag, but the unreliable tag.]. Is Arcayne really the best judge of my intentions, since he has misquoted me several times as it is?--Jojhutton (talk) 02:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Image Upload Problems

I tried to upload a radio station logo and keep getting "internal errors" that would say something like "Could not rename file "/tmp/phpUk1svS" to "public/1/1a/WHRV-FM_2008.gif"." and even the image database wasn't writeable. I asked on IRC, but they were having a conversation on drugs (no...really), so I bring it to your attention. - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 9, 2008 @ 04:19

Next time, slap them until they give you the techies' IRC chan (irc:wikimedia-tech, If I remember correctly). -- lucasbfr 16:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Sync Guy

Despite three checkusers this month alone, this fool manages to return despite four years of trying to shut him down. I tried to taunt him into answering me via the talk page, but he has yet to apply a single keystroke to a talk page. This account is blocked, but there are five more waiting to be blocked. What is it going to take? At the very least, creation of sub-accounts by new users should be eliminated. He creates an account and then uses it to create several more. He didn't clobber any articles and isn't likely to given his history, but the five remaining socks should still be shut down and perhaps a rangeblock applied after another checkuser is run. I don't mind playing whack-a-vandal, but this is ridiculous. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 04:25, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the subaccounts are blocked. I've never initiated a checkuser, but I've alerted User:Gogo Dodo to the issue. He's been following this kid's exploits for some time now. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 04:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

ec. Those five accounts blocked. I don't think that restriction account creation by new accounts would help; it's already capped at 6 per IP. WODUP 04:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone made another contact with his mum or something? Maybe if we could convince her to watch over her son's behaviour and block or ban him from using the Internet, or Misplaced Pages. Having her block all Wikimedia-related sites might be the fix if you're really tired of him. Blake Gripling (talk) 04:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I actually tried to initiate contact a couple of nights ago using the three early e-mail accounts. All three were kicked back. I'm assuming they simply aren't active anymore. So, whenever this little nincompoop decides he's going to create a slew of Misplaced Pages accounts, it would seem he's damned well going to. I'm thinking that the recent IP blocks should be extended to include the entire range. Ditto this latest assault. He's managed to keep at it without a single iota of acknowledgement; even a death threat is unlikely to stop him. And no...I am not goingto threaten anyone nor should anyone else. I'm just saying that to emphasize the fact that we're dealing with a remarkably persistent individual who happens to have access to several IPs. Lucky us.  :) --PMDrive1061 (talk) 06:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

have we contacted his ISP?--Crossmr (talk) 06:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Lord knows I've tried. I brought this up to the foundation some time ago. Never heard a word from them. Since a checkuser brings up the IP and we have a possible last name on the account which I won't mention here, it seems like a no-brainer. How do we get started? I think four years of goofs, guys and glowballs is quite enough. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 06:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Crossmr beat me right to it. We should contact his ISP and have them contact him. I don't remember the last case but I don't think it was even this bad. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You beat me to it as well, Ricky.  :) This has got to stop and now. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 06:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's Misplaced Pages:ISP contact information but realistically, they'll just ignore it. There's Misplaced Pages:Abuse reports, so there's some process here (assuming we know the IP address). Has that been tried in the four years? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You know in extreme cases we should have the complaint pass quickly through arbcom (as a sanity check, just for them to make sure its truly warranted) and then have one of the foundations lawyers or something send off a formal signed letter to the ISPs in question. Nothing threatening, just far more official.--Crossmr (talk) 06:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

What, under some sort of request for arbitration? It would be a strange way to do it but process-wise, it might work (or encourage them to make sure that Misplaced Pages emails to ISPs are in better control). On the other hand, it seems like the prior process has involved just random users complaining (which might explain the lack of effectiveness). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm good with that, so count me in. This may set a precident for present and future serial vandals. I've never filed an RFA so I don't know the procedure. If someone here will take the initiative to do so, I'll not only throw in my support, I'll help deal with the foundation as well. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 07:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Looking over the abuse reports, they have already discussed who should sent out the reports it doesn't look like they are up for additional bureaucracy. I think it's best to format an abuse report first before approaching arbitration (I would ask at its talk page before going forward as well). I don't know the history. Does anyone know some checkusers with knowledge on the IP addresses? They would could help format the request. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't mean a formal arbitration request, I just meant we should have a kind of chain of command kind of thing for ISP abuse contact. The reason I mention arbcom people is because the community has decided to entrust them with our most important decisions. Therefore if we're going to ask a foundation lawyer to send a letter (Templated or otherwise) to an ISP as a formal abuse complaint, we should just have it pass through them as a matter of 1 or 2 of them looking at it and going "yes this seems pretty severe" or "no this guy hasn't gone completely whacko yet". and then have them forward it directly to one of the lawyers who could sign it and fire it off.--Crossmr (talk) 11:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Drop a line over to Gogo Dodo and to Alison. They both have first-hand experience. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 02:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Bedford's actions on Rush Limbaugh

User:Bedford has reverted a sourced statement three times simply because he does not like it on Rush Limbaugh. The first time he didn't even give an explanation.. The second time he didn't dispute the information, he simply stated he didn't like the person making it. The third time he once again did revert claiming the L.A. Times does not fact check. Limbaugh has claimed Obama plans to take over people's 401(k)s, yet there is absolutely no evidence of that. In their print edition, A Section, the L.A. Times examined that statement by Limbaugh, saying there was absolutely no basis for his making such a statement. I put this under the appropriate section, with the source to the L.A. Times article, with a rationale, and Bedford has revert three times, edit warring with no valid reason based in any policy or guideline, and with no discussion - despite my bring it up with him on his talk page. I ask for a short block of Bedford for edit-warring since he is a former admin who should know better than to edit-war to remove sourced content. --David Shankbone 19:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

David, you are the one showing ILIKEIT. I haven't broken #RR yet, and don't intend to. I read the article earlier this morning, so I knew all about it. It's an opinion piece, that the writer hoped people would take as fact, which you did. Now that I didn't back down on you,. you try to intimidate me. You didn't even try going to the talk page.--Gen. Bedford 19:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I've reworded the ill-formatted section heading for neutrality. the skomorokh 19:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Content dispute, doesn't belong here. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not a content dispute, it's edit-warring, which is an admin issue. The L.A. Times fact checks opinion pieces. Regardless, you aren't disputing that there is no factual basis for Limbaugh to claim Obama plans to take over people's 401(k)s, you are simply stating that a respected writer reporting that Limbaugh has no basis to make a claim doesn't like Rush Limbaugh. I broached you on your Talk page, and you didn't bother to go to ANY talk page. One does not have to revert 4 times to run afoul of 3RR; regardless, you are edit-warring to keep out factual information - that neither Obama nor ANYONE in his campaign has ever mentioned taking over 401Ks, and Limbaugh claiming that they will - that you simply do not like. You can't provide any sources to back yourself up, so you simply dispute the source, which whether you like it or not, is a reliable source. --David Shankbone 19:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Truth be told, they're talking about it. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gwen; this is a content dispute because users are edit-warring over whether a particular piece of content ought to be included. Both Bedford and David Shankbone have been edit-warring, and there has been no talkpage discussion. I'm posting this to WP:BLPN. The article may need protecting and warned editors may need to be blocked - in future, but for now no admin involvement is needed. the skomorokh 19:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree completely. As a former admin, User:Bedford should not just be reverting without explanation to remove content that is factual and sourced. That he reverted three times, despite my approaching him on his Talk page, makes him the edit warrior. This is not how issues are meant to be handled. In the end, Limbaugh is claiming Obama plans to take over people's 401(k)s, and there is absolutely no basis for that assertion. I put this under this "accuracy" section on his article. Bedford is edit-warring to keep it out. That's an admin issue, especially since he is an experienced user who should know better. --David Shankbone 19:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a discussion now at Talk:Rush_Limbaugh#Obama_and_401Ks. Close and move on? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we could give both editors a 1 days rest so that they could read the news, find current updates on the topic, re-think the statement about the LA Times and its op-ed pieces, and come back tomorrow as awesome, team-building editors :-) -t BMW c- 20:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

That's an abusive way to use blocks, pure and simple. Especially when there is no source to say Democrats/Obama will take away 401(k)s except for conservative commentators. But threatening blocks because there is a dispute is not only poor form, it's dangerous for the viability of the site. --David Shankbone 20:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring isn't allowed. Y'all are going back and forth a bit too much. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The emotion is deafening, I've yet to see NPoV wording from either "side." Gwen Gale (talk) 20:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I would never suggest a block due to a "dispute". To suggest that I am leans horribly towards WP:AGF in its own right. Interestingly enough, most of the same letters appear in the word "disruption", something that is happening to Misplaced Pages due to edit-warring and other actions,and that I highly recommend blocks for. -t BMW c- 21:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I've bookmarked your diffs for when you run for admin. I find your loose advocacy of blocks to be problematic, and not what most editors want in an admin. Have a nice day. --David Shankbone 21:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

That sounds markedly like a threat to me; that is, publicly noting the intention of keeping a record of contentious comments/actions for future use, with an intent to chill the perceptions of the other party. Don't we, uh, issue warnings and blocks for the likes of that? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Can you point to this curious guideline/policy? Specifically, the part that says we block people for stating that when we disagree with how they propose blocks to be use, we say we will not support them for admin? Please...it would make fascinating reading. --David Shankbone 21:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

In what way do you believe Misplaced Pages:HARASS#Threats to be curious? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

In what way do you think I feel injured by Bwilkins? That's a pretty broad reading of Misplaced Pages:HARASS#Threats - are you sure you're an admin? I often feel harassed by you, and many people know it, so do you think you should be blocked? What about when you called me a "fairly wretched individual"? Does that deserve a block under WP:NPA? What about your constant involvement in almost any thread I am a party to? Does that fall WP:HARASS? --David Shankbone 22:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Certain. While I will endeavour to keep my language neutral in future, I should advise you that I do not care for your eagerness to play victim when it suits you and yet resort to threatening language in other interactions. You may not care to have me point it out, so perhaps it would be best if you didn't indulge in such actions and then I would not feel the need to comment. And who are these "many people"? Lastly (from me in this matter, anyway) is that I often comment at discussions at the admin noticeboards; there is nothing special in me saying stuff here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

And I'm letting you know now that you were part of an e-mail discussion between myself, Jimmy Wales and several arbitrators where you pursuit of me and your harassment of me were discussed. Your personal attacks. Your constant refrain of "block him! block him!" and your trolling my talk page. Back off LessHeard, or this is going to end up before ArbCom and I'm a hair away from bringing it there. There's thousands of admins, and you have demonstrated extraordinary personal animus and pursuit of me, and it will be addressed if you don't quit. That's not a threat, it's a promise. Your harassment needs to end now. --David Shankbone 21:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

As ever, I invite review of my actions and contributions - and I will edit how and where I feel my abilities are of benefit to the encyclopedia. However, I have not (certainly not recently, and rarely if ever in the past) edited your talkpage and I do not have it watchlisted; I am sanguine regarding your claims of harassment and would be prepared to discuss my very limited interactions with any third party who felt it necessary. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

You've been edit warring and are at the edge of 3rr at Rush Limbaugh. Bwilkins warned you about that and now I'm warning you too. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Your second warning noted, Gwen. You're welcome to warn a third time even though nothing has changed since your first. --David Shankbone 22:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Limbaugh lies all the time. What's special about this particular lie? P.S. I would put Limbaugh's page on my watch list except my computer might get infected. Baseball Bugs 22:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Must confess; this made me laugh out loud: http://blog.shankbone.org/2008/11/09/strange-logic-on-wikipedia--rush-limbaugh-barack-obama-and-the-democrats-taking-your-401k.aspx?ref=rss --Gen. Bedford 02:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you really want to fuel the fire? -- lucasbfr 13:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh (Southern Cone)

I would appreciate some objective intervention. The user, Tb, and I have been engaged in combative editing of this article for several days. Tb continues to revert text that I have changed and cited without providing any new information to support his claims. Because I am unfamiliar with the procedures to deal with such a problem on Misplaced Pages, I would appreciate if somebody could view the discussion page and provide some help. Perhaps blocking the user would be in order, but that would only serve to delay the problem. thanks for you input! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.157.11 (talk) 22:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a WP:3RR issue for both parties involved. Both taking a step back and discussing would be beneficial, as may be Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks like neither Tb (talk · contribs) nor 76.124.157.11 (talk · contribs) had been formally warned about 3RR yet, so I went ahead and put cautions on both of their talkpages, as well as a note at the article talkpage. If either one of them reverts again within the next 24 hours, their account access should be blocked. --Elonka 22:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Correction: 76.124.157.11 (talk · contribs) was warned at 22:13, but has not reverted since the warning. --Elonka 22:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it looks like 76.124.157.11 (talk · contribs) did another revert at 23:04. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Already blocked by Will Beback. --Elonka 23:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to give some more history; the anon user here was blocked three times for repeated vandalism (blanking of large bits of text repeatedly); the pages had to be semi-protected for a couple days, and during that period he refused to either use edit summaries, engage in text, or do anything else. He was IPsocking to avoid IP blocks, and even went so far as to blank the IP socking report once. He seems to be willing now to discuss, but even so, I am extremely frustrated by an editor who makes many changes, discusses one, ignores most of my requests for discussion--which you can see go back to the beginning of the vandalism, and now--and continues to insist that the reason the page must say what he wants is because he has the facts, and text of mine which simply says that there is a controversy gets reverted. I would appreciate the help of some neutral voices in the discussion. Tb (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Behavioral problems aside, these changes in the dioceses create content forks. I've started a thread at WP:NPOVN#Schismatic dioceses = POV forks to get ideas on how to deal with that problem. Suggestions are welcome. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Nicktoons: Globs of Doom claimed original research

In some ways, this could be viewed as a long-term abuse case, but it is hard to tell from how many contributions are involved.

The involved parties include: Majora999, KensouYagami, and the IP 69.137.144.243. If you look at the IPs contributions, they vary, but include mainly tweaking of spelling/minor fixes, blatant vandalism, and addition of questionable material.

The two users claim the IP is "vandalising" the article by adding Bessie Higgenbottom as a playable character, as well as several others that are apparently not playable. They also state that there is no multiplayer mode, but have been unable to provide a source to contradict this. I have been waiting and waiting for this to go away, but it wont, so I would appreciate if an administrator would look into this.

If you need any information, just let me know on User talk:Jock Boy my talk, and I will be watching this page and the article's talk page as well. Thank you. Jock Boy (t/c) Sign 23:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I have semiprotected the article for two weeks. A number of IPs were edit-warring to add unsourced material and original research. The videogame was only released October 20, and it is hoped that the topic may settle down soon. EdJohnston (talk) 04:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Templates in Barack Obama

Someone is messing with the templates that show up at the bottom of the page, substituting the N-word and otherwise fooling around. We need help from someone who can quickly track down what's going on. Baseball Bugs 02:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it's OK now. Thanks, to whoever fixed it. Baseball Bugs 02:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Somebody blanked the template after it got vandalized. I restored the template and semi-protected it. If this happens again, the easiest way to find out which templates could have been vandalized is to click "edit this page" and scroll down. There is a list of transcluded templates there, just look for any unprotected or semi-protected ones. J.delanoy_adds 02:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. I'll copy this info to the Obama talk page. Thank you! Baseball Bugs 02:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This tool may also help: . Note that there may be a short lag before edits appear, because the tool is using the toolserver database. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

And this tool lets you check which templates are unprotected, which can be another way to find vandalism: . — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

What about Special:Recentchangeslinked? — Werdna • talk 03:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, just remember to filter it by namespace or you won't see anything useful due to the obscenely large number of "related changes". — CharlotteWebb 05:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Block of Addbot

I have temporarily blocked User:Addbot in the absence of any response to my concerns at User:Addshore's talk page. The bot is making buggy edits and substing templates which are not usually substed, listed in several places as templates which shouldn't be substed, and outside the mandate of the bot's approval at the time it was approved. I will unfortunately not be around to deal with this further at this time, so I'm reporting it here for review and appropriate followup action. Thanks. -- zzuuzz 02:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If I had to guess, someone probably messed up AWB's list of templates that should be substed, and since a good number of bots (mine included), draw from that list, anything would be passed onto it. Oh well, good block, I'm sure Addy will have it fixed shortly. MBisanz 03:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Firefly322 again

Firefly322 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Serious lack of good faith, borderline personal attack on this admin here right after release of 2 recent back-to-back blocks for personal attacks/agf. Could use additional, uninvolved admin help on this. It's a long edit, but saying I advocate punitive blocks is what I'm referring to. Toddst1 (talk) 02:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Not the longest edit I've seen but close enough (about 2/3). — CharlotteWebb 03:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Blocks are educational, and this editor doesn't seem to have learnt WP norms yet. Verbal chat 08:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I see longwinded wikilawyering whilst blocked, which I take as a strong hint there will be more worrisome edits when the block is up in a day. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• See the more or less wide open offer to unblock which I made 5 days ago. It went unanswered. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Could anyone explain the oblique reference to WP:TROUT being somehow equivalent to WP:TROLL? I am confused (perhaps too easily?) SHEFFIELDSTEEL 14:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is, he's trying to say calling someone a troll with a cite to the soft-linked Meta essay WP:TROLL is not a personal attack, since trouting someone isn't a personal attack. At first he thought WP:TROLL was policy and likened it to other policy links but when told otherwise, he came up with the non-policy link WP:TROUT (which, by the bye, is clearly marked with a humour tag). Gwen Gale (talk) 14:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gwen's assessment of wikilawyering. How to handle? Toddst1 (talk) 15:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Either lengthen the block for lack of acknowledgement and ongoing wikilawyering about it or let the block lift and see what happens. I find myself leaning slightly more towards letting the block end, keeping a keen watch and if any more PAs stir up, blocking indef. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree, so long as it is a "last chance". Perhaps forcing user adoption might be an option to help them? Verbal chat 16:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It would be that, I think. As for adoption/mentoring, though it's almost always brought up in a helpful way, like Verbal has done, I've seldom seen it have much sway on outcomes. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I support the last chance / final warning. I will annotate the user's talk page to reflect this. Toddst1 (talk) 17:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Brandon Rochelle

I've been watching an obviously-experienced new account engage in borderline trolling at the Village Pump.

Does anyone happen to know who Brandon Rochelle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a sock of, and should he be blocked? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

My guess is Jvolkblum, look at his sock categories and you'll see why. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure on that one - the edits have been scattered in various places, though rarely beneficial from what I've seen. The name does bring to mind Jvolkblum, but the edits don't. And the user's userpage says they're 11 years old. It does smell funny, all told, though. Tony Fox (arf!) 04:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Posting (trolling) at VPP, RefDesk/Misc and various user talk pages? My money is on this fellow. CIreland (talk) 04:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Password learned, abuse to articles

Someone learned my password from knowledge, and has so far edited 2 Misplaced Pages articles. I've already gotten 2 messages. One for vandalism and another for unconstructiveness. These two articles were Comcast and Chris Pirillo. I do not know if the person is going to continue to do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Osxdude (talk • contribs) 03:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Change your password NOW! — Rlevse • Talk • 03:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I've done that, of course, but he may have his cookies on. -- Osxdude (talk • contribs) 03:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Log out and back in. Logging out anywhere should log you out everywhere. (That's how it works for me, anyway.) -- Vary Talk 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC) (Who almost didn't remember to log back in after testing this.)

Also remember that you are generally held responsible for anything done on your account; that's why it's important to create secure passwords. -- Vary Talk 03:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Also change your email address, just in case he may have access to your email too, he might be able to use the forgot password link. Also check your computer for keyloggers. - Unpopular Opinion (talk) 03:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible to do an emergency checkuser to the affected account to see what IPs are using it and block the IP that has snagged the password? - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 10, 2008 @ 03:26

I don't think the checkuser policy permits that. Compromised accounts are usually blocked until it is confirmed that the rightful owner has control over it. - Unpopular Opinion (talk) 03:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't sure that could be done, but I thought I would throw that out there. Hopefully OSXDude has control of it by now. - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 10, 2008 @ 03:39

Um, I don't see why we couldn't use checkuser that way. What part of the checkuser policy would it violate? JoshuaZ (talk) 04:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's both a valid and a sensible use of Checkuser. I'm not so much concerned about blocking the underlying IP (though that may be a good idea) as finding out if the user has compromised other accounts or is employing other socks. From Misplaced Pages:CheckUser:

CheckUser is a tool allowed to be used...for the purposes of protecting Misplaced Pages against actual and potential disruption and abuse.

The tool is to be used to fight vandalism, to check for sockpuppet abuse, and to limit disruption of the project.

It looks to me like this case fits. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Compromised accounts that have been used to vandalise or whatever have been checkusered in the past. There's at least a couple of cases I can think of where the accounts were compromised by other editors and we only caught the guilty party by checkuser. And of course it also helps alleviate any suspicion about the account owner. Sarah 23:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Then would you mind doing a checkuser on Osxdude's account, please? - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 10, 2008 @ 23:15

I'm just an ordinary admin and don't have checkuser rights. Rlevse or one of the other checkusers might comment in this section again, otherwise we'll have to ask them to consider running a check. Sarah 23:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, sorry about that. I will, after dinner here, list Osxdude's account for a checkuser. If someone doesn't beat me to it :) Take Care...NeutralHomer • Talk • November 10, 2008 @ 23:38

• I posted the Request for Checkuser on RCU just a couple minutes ago. Link: Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Osxdude - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 10, 2008 @ 23:55
  • Results of Checkuser: "Unfortunately Osxdude has almost no recent edits. I can confirm that the 4 edits around 02:00 on 10 Nov were made from a different location than the most recent edits at 03:11 and 03:19, but I have no way to know which (if either) is the correct account owner. Thatcher 00:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)" - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 11, 2008 @ 01:17

Obama talk page is a bloody mess

Alright, that is quite enough out of all of you (kudos to Bugs for going to bed though). Trouts all around for personal attacks and incivility, and anyone interested in settling the content dispute should do something productive over here.--Tznkai (talk) 18:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring by possibly banned users

• 128.122.253.228 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 72.179.45.224 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Ayodhya debate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm not sure if a 3rr report is more appropriate. They have been edit warring over Ayodhya debate for a few days. They have each accused the other of being a sockpuppet of:

• BhaiSaab (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and
• Hkelkar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) respectively.

Both of those accounts were banned by the arbitration committee. (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar). Enviroboy_Cs 04:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

They're also edit warring over the edit war report at WP:RFPP (oh, the irony). No idea whether either (or both) is socking/banned/bonkers. CIreland (talk) 04:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the whole mess started with this addition by User:Backtalking khartoumi, blocking indefinitely as "Hkelkar." Might be some truth to that one at least. I see that nobody has bothered to use the talk page at all. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The two IPs above have been blocked 72 hours for edit warring, as also 128.122.253.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). I think they were up to 60RR at Ayodhya debate. If this doesn't help, semi-protection might be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 04:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

They also briefly fought over Microcephaly (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) which had to be semi-protected. Enviroboy_Cs 04:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on the article but it's an entire mess of unsourced garbage. The only decent citation offered is differing version of Britannica. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the Microcephaly warring, man do I feel embarrassed at my culture. Anyone who argues the West is prejudicial should head out there and see what real intolerance looks like. Mix in politics to everything and it's just a disaster. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Bad hand account?

IwRnHaA (talk · contribs) appears to me to be a bad hand account of another user on Misplaced Pages who is not identified. His contributions are solely at cold fusion and they are made to advance an agenda of portraying cold fusion research in an unduly positive light. The stated purpose of this user's "alternate" account is to be "a separate account for a controversial topic so that I remain unsullied by potential wikidrama." I believe this violates our alternate account policies. I started a sockpuppetry case to this effect Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/IwRnHaA. I am appealing the decision to close this sockpuppetry case and want an uninvolved administrator to consider the question of whether we can have bad hand accounts such as this. In particular, I'll note that one of people in the discussion who quixotically did not believe there was anything wrong with this account usage wrote: "Agreed. To 'remain unsullied by potential wikidrama' is not a good reason, but to 'remain unsullied by potential real-world drama' is a good reason." I concur. Since the user is not indicating that it is real-world drama they are trying to avoid, I believe that this particular user should either identify their other Misplaced Pages account or go back to using just it. Another user put it well: "I think this account should be deleted but no actions taken against IwRnHaA core account since he appears to be very honest." Such a solution would be very agreeable to me as well.

I'll note that I was admonished, in particular, not to engage in this type of activity by arbcom who stated, in part, "Abuse of sockpuppet accounts, such as using them to evade... user accountability... is strictly forbidden." I believe that this is exactly what this account is for, and I find it extremely unfair that this justification was taken to be legitimate.

Additional problems, as I see it:

1. There is no guarantee that this person is not contributing to cold fusion under another account since we do not know what the identity of the other account is.
2. There is a concerted effort on the part of various cold fusion advocates to protect this activity as legitimate (in particular User:Pcarbonn and User:Ronnotel). I believe that this has swayed the appearance of consensus on that page which brought the sockpuppetry case to a premature end.

Thanks for your consideration of this matter.

ScienceApologist (talk) 05:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

On the one hand, diffs would be useful if there's a concern that this account is violating policy. On the other, I'm extremely uncomfortable with the use of alternate accounts in an active and contentious dispute. The idea that using an alternate account in such circumstances reduces wikidrama is ridiculous; it creates wikidrama. A desire to keep one's main account "unsullied by wikidrama" sounds semantically equivalent to "avoiding scrutiny". I recognize that this is a largely unsettled gray area of policy, but in the case of active disputes I feel strongly that people should be using their main accounts if they wish to participate. This is a can of worms we should not allow to open. MastCell  06:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I cannot speak to the exact content issues, but just based on sockpuppetry policy, I'm not seeing anything of concern here. What IwRnHaA (talk · contribs) is doing appears to be in accordance with WP:SOCK#LEGIT. As long as there are no reasonable concerns of block evasion, or using multiple accounts on the same article, it's fine. Just don't cross the streams. --Elonka 07:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It is, however, in direct contradiction to the arbcom-outlined principle I quoted above. To be sure, I used precisely the same defense you are outlining here and the arbcom decided that it was better to have consolidated accounts to avoid any hint of impropriety. I can see their point. If we allow segregation of accounts in this fashion it will be very hard to prove when sockpuppetry has gone "crossed streams". ScienceApologist (talk) 07:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I agree with MastCell that "avoiding scrutiny" seems to be a valid concern. Using a sock in a contentious area during a dispute also seems problematic, as does this user being involved in protecting some users and in disagreements with SA - which dos suggest block evasion. IMO main accounts should be used for contributing, and alternate accounts for admin/bot like services which are clearly labelled as such. I also find SAs argument immediately above compelling. Verbal chat 07:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) is under specific ArbCom restrictions to only use a single account, via Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#ScienceApologist limited to one account. However, that is an unusual situation, because of other history from that one user. As long as there is no history of disruption from IwRnHaA (talk · contribs), alternate accounts are still an option. It also is in accordance with policy at Misplaced Pages:CheckUser, which states that CheckUser is not to be used for "fishing", unless there is actual disruption. So in the meantime, we assume good faith, which means we take IwRnHaA's word that the account is being used exactly as stated, as an alternate account just for use on this one article. Which is in accordance with WP:SOCK#LEGIT. --Elonka 07:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Referring to me in the third-person, misrepresenting an arbcom decision with respect to me ("However, that is an unusual situation, because of other history from that one user." references claims that are nowhere to be found in the arbcom decision or deliberations), and bringing up checkuser seems to me to indicate that either Elonka is way out of her league in dealing with this matter or is simply nursing her ever-evolving vendetta against me. I really wish she wouldn't inject herself into discussions where I'm involved. If you check her contributions, you'll see that she seems to be preferentially active in discussions that involve me. I would appreciate it if she butt out. Should I ask for an injunction? ScienceApologist (talk) 07:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I also take the view that using an alternative account to avoid scrutiny of a main account is not acceptable in controversial areas that are subject to arbcom restrictions. Policy is descriptive not prescriptive and I'd say we do now have a pretty clear view that using a sock to avoid controversy attaching to your main account is not acceptable if you are engaging in editing in a controversial arena. What, for example, if the sockmaster were standing for Arbcom or adminship and wanted to hide their activity in a controversial area? That would be completely unacceptable. Spartaz 07:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with comments here saying that using a sock account for editing contentious topics is inappropriate. IIRC, the exemption that allows multiple accounts was placed there partly to allow for people to edit "embarrassing topics" like List of sex positions without it reflecting on their main account or their real names. The ArbCom has endorsed the proposition that socks should not be used for editing policy pages or proposals for policy changes. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion. I'll just point out that there are topics that are "embarrassing" and contentious at the same time. A few LGBT-related articles have resulted in topic bans for certain editors. VG ☎ 09:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• There seems a pretty clear consensus that this account is not being used in an appropriate way and that practise (if nor written policy) no longer supports the use of alternative accounts in controversial areas just to keep the contribution of the main account uncontroversial. As such I have blocked this account but took care to disable the autoblock. Open to discussion as always. If the owner of the blocked account wishes to contribute I'd appreciate their owning up to the edits. Spartaz 10:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Agree with this block. I have to disagree with Elonka - whilst the account may well be being used per WP:SOCK#LEGIT, she can not be sure of that because we don't know the main account - is the sock backing up the main account in editing, supporting it on talk pages, or vice versa? The only way that it would be OK is if the main account was not participating on cold fusion related articles, which, again, we don't know. Yes, we should default to WP:AGF, but on such contentious articles (and with contentious views), we have to be far more careful. Black Kite 10:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Now we need to make sure that WP:SOCK represents practice and community opinion, which in this case needs clarification. (I support this block, btw). Verbal chat 10:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• The user is requesting unblock. I would decline it, but feel it is best not to having commented above. A thought - whoever deals with the unblock could ask this account to email them from their main account, and then check that the main account is not being used to edit cold fusion topics. If this is the case, they could be unblocked. Black Kite 18:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I really, really don't know about this block. I looked over the user's contribution history a little, and most of the edits seem reasonable to me. We do not block people for having alternate accounts, we block them for using them inappropriately. No evidence has been posted that suggests this is going on, other than the user's up-front admission that they have another account. If this user is POV pushing then maybe a block is in order. But I see no specific evidence about that being presented by anyone here. It seems to me that if we could not have blocked this user if they hadn't been up-front about this being an alternate account, then we should not penalize them for being honest. And I certainly do not approve of the idea that we should start blocking accounts just for being opinionated WP:SPAs in contentious areas. As much as they're a pain, this is supposed to be an open project. Mangojuice 19:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess the question is what constitutes "inappropriate" use of an alternate account; I recognize this is a gray area. Using an alternate account to edit "controversial", probationed topics without attaching any controversy to one's main account seems improper, to me. This is the definition of avoiding scrutiny. If the edits are completely in line with Misplaced Pages policy, then why the problem with using one's main account? This smacks of trying to keep the main account's rep squeaky-clean, perhaps in the interest of seeking office, while also asserting one's viewpoint on a controversial topic under ArbCom probation. You can't have your cake and eat it too; that to me is the essence of WP:SOCK. MastCell  19:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

As grey areas go, this one is pretty dark. Maintaining a separate account is generally pretty questionable to me, and I believe that the areas laid out as legitimate need to be very, very narrowly interpreted, and the interpretation of the descriptions of unacceptable uses need to be correspondingly broad. This one is an effort not to taint a main account with the efforts put forth on battleground topics. That certainly comes under the umbrella of avoiding scrutiny in my mind.

I would suggest making all of the nationalist and pseudoscience articles explicit sock-free zones. Choose a date for implementation, and from that date forward, only one account per person can edit anywhere in the zone, and using multiple accounts to edit would resulting in blocking of all.—Kww(talk) 20:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The description at WP:SOCK under "Avoiding scrutiny" is quite clear to me: "it is a violation of this policy to create alternative accounts in order to confuse or deceive editors who may have a legitimate interest in reviewing your contributions. Is someone alleging that this user has a history of POV pushing on other accounts? If so, show me a history of POV pushing on this one -- some real diffs, please. If someone is alleging that this user is using multiple accounts on overlapping articles to create a false impression of popularity of an opinion, then Thatcher's comment rules that out, but again, if someone could be specific about any evidence I would be much happier. Is this account involved in any kind of disruption? If so, please show the evidence. I categorically reject the idea that merely editing controversial subjects is so suspicious that any use of alternate accounts is automatically inappropriate. Users ought to be allowed to have openly declared alternative accounts for controversial areas, so long as they do not use those accounts to disrupt Misplaced Pages, or to do what would be prohibited for one account to do. POV pushing is a kind of disruption, so I feel we don't need to cut this particular account a lot of slack. But it bothers me a lot that no evidence has been presented about POV pushing. Mangojuice 20:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• The user seems to have at least two other accounts, and they have edited overlapping articles and talk pages, although IwRnHaA does not overlap the other two. He also has IP edits to a topic frequented by a banned user, which I hesitate to disclose at this point without more information on the banned user's old IPs, which I do not have but may be able to obtain. This should probably be listed at WP:RFCU for follow-up. Thatcher 19:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Based on this, I have marked the unblock as reviewed. The block is preventive of disruption, specifically engaging in a dispute while evading scrutiny. Guy (Help!) 20:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher's comment makes the block more reasonable on its face, but I think the "Wikilawyering is not helpful" comment in the unblock wasn't quite on. What was he/she supposed to argue in an unblock request? An assertion that his use of the account was within policy, and a request to see the ArbCom case noted, isn't really wikilawyering as I usually think of it - and is really the only unblock avenue to take other than repudiation of past conduct. Avruch 20:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

As SA feels the need to name me personally as an "advocate" for cold fusion, I'd like to respond by pointing that I've made a grand total of seven edits in the past *year* to the article page, and not that many more to the talk page. My interest in this page has less to do with cold fusion as a science (or psuedoscience, as the case may be) than in opposing SA's despicable behavior (for which he was blocked on one occasion, and oversighted in another). Apparently no brush is too broad that he won't try to use it, including the use of smear by innuendo for any who dares to insist that he adheres the same policies that everyone else does. Has he no sense of decency? Ronnotel (talk) 20:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I am uneasy about this block. When blocking users we need to be rigorous (yes, even bureaucratic) because we must protect users against unfair blocks. What should happen here:

1. Evidence is assembled at WP:SSP or WP:RFCU, including diffs.
2. A checkuser request can be run, if there is sufficient cause.
3. Once all the related accounts are identified, appropriate blocks can be placed.

There is no rush to block a user right away. It is more important to be correct, and do a thorough job. I suggest following up with steps 2 and 3. This thread should be closed. Follow up can happen at WP:RFCU, per Thatcher. Jehochman 20:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Could someone add a link to the RFCU/SSP discussion, for completeness, if one has started or when it starts, per Jehochman and Thatcher. Thanks, Verbal chat 21:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Link to SSP in SA's opening statement.

(ec)I'm curious why you find this block problematic? Its quite clear that policy as written no-longer reflects what we do but since written policy often lags behind the practical application there is no problem with that. There has been no damage to the main account's reputation as I took care to ensure they wouldn't get caught in an autoblock and we still don't know who it is. All that has happened is that a fairly wide consensus of experienced and trusted users has emerged from discussion of the situation and said, actually we don't want you to use the account in that way and taken action to enforce that. The action seems to have wide support and wasn't imposed in a reckless or arbitrary way. Frankly this is no different to blocking a malfunctioning bot. I'd appreciate clarification of where the problem with the block is. Spartaz 21:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

My experience with these things is that the community has one standard, and ArbCom has another. I was involved in an arbitration case where somebody was forced to resign her adminship for making a sock puppetry block that turned out to be wrong. As a result, I have become more careful that most admins. It is my personal policy not to block anybody for sock puppetry until after a WP:SSP or WP:RFCU report is filed. Better safe than sorry. Here's the RFCU report Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/IwRnHaA. Another benefit of this approach is that we nail all the socks, not just the most obvious one. I am not saying you did anything wrong; I am saying that you took more risk than I'd be willing to take. Also, WP:SOCK should be updated if the community feels that blocks in these situations are appropriate. Editors should be able to read the policy and get an accurate idea of the standards to which they will be held. Blocking is a serious action that should not take users by surprise. Jehochman 21:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I understand now. I read your comments the other way. I remember the case you are referring to but in this case this was an acknowledged alternate account so blocking it really seemed to me to be no more troubling then blocking a bot. I did realise that there could be trouble if we ended up outing the main account by accidently autoblocking it but Thather's comments certainly suggest that there may be more to this. Spartaz 21:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, if there is more to this, I will be very glad that SA decided to file an appeal instead of dropping the matter. Jehochman 21:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I am looking forward to the results of the CheckUser. However, to be clear, I am opposed to the indef block of IwRnHaA (talk · contribs). There was no history of disruption from this account. Instead, s/he was upfront that it was an alternate account. If IwRnHaA had lied and said he wasn't an alternate account, would we have blocked at this point? I do not think so, as there is no indication here of any policy violations whatsoever. It appears that we indef blocked someone for being honest.  :/ --Elonka 23:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

ROFL. Skinwalker (talk) 23:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Based on Thatcher's comment above, it appears we have blocked someone who was being dishonest (multiple accounts, including overlapping edits to articles and talk pages on other accounts), but not necessarily with this particular account. From what I understand, this account may actually be the 'good hand' rather than the 'bad hand', but in any case the editor appears to be editing abusively.

Elonka, I'm concerned that perhaps your past history with ScienceApologist might be colouring your approach here. It may be wise for you not to dive into situations concerning SA unless the matter directly involves you and/or administrative actions you've taken with respect to SA. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

From what I see that most of the overlaps are at Lithium-sulphur_battery, which has zero posts on the talk page, so it seems uncontroversial. Is this a crank article?. Sorry, I'm not familiar with that area. There are some more overlaps at Plug-in hybrid, but that's a FA it's hard for me figure out what's going on. Did he abused the voting process? On the other hand, one of the accounts did edit sexuality related articles, which is exactly the kind of isolation that Will_Beback mentioned. I can easily point you to an AfD-only account I've seen, which votes keep all the time, but (s)he's not doing any real disruption. Is this behavior off-limits now? Can I ask for a RCFU for that AfD-only account just to tie it to the main account(s)? VG ☎ 00:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

See , , and . This guy's about as banned as it gets. Skinwalker (talk) 00:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

He, he, this guy needs to get a (real) life. Anyway, I left a note about Lithium-sulphur_battery at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Chemistry; the article may need a closer look. VG ☎ 01:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Ten socks have now been blocked. This user was in fact being deceptive. I hope everyone now understands the value of getting a Checkuser before blocking to reduce the risk of false positives and to avoid playing whack-a-mole with the sock master. It is far better to go slow, get the Checkuser and then nail all the accounts at once. Jehochman 00:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• I have started a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Sock puppetry#Explicit numeric limits and controversial areas for anyone that cares to discuss modifying our sock policies to better accommodate this kind of case.—Kww(talk) 03:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

User Talk:East718

Would somebody please semi-protect User Talk:East718 for a few hours? Anons are attacking it unmercifully. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 08:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Assemblies of Yahweh

It appears someone has taken issue with edits Jayjg has made to this article. This IP address has cross-posted in several areas a lengthy complaint about bias in the article, etc. Can someone take a look, as this may be a sock of ModObjective? Thanks in advance! TN‑X-Man 14:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess I shouldn't say sock. It is possibly ModObjective editing anonymously. TN‑X-Man 14:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Blocked... I remember reading this rant somewhere. -- lucasbfr 15:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I am following up with FT2 (he acted on it). -- lucasbfr 15:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

As do I, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Anyways, thanks for the response. TN‑X-Man 15:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Block needed for censor

Wikidemon should be blocked because I put a reasonable discussion in talk:Barack Obama and it was removed. I made it more polite sounding and asked people not to remove it. Wikidemon removed it.

Removal of discussion from article talk pages is not permitted. There is a danger when it's done with Obama that censorship may be an issue. If you disagree with the discussion of changing the article, just say so, don't remove it. Removal is disruptive because it blocks discussion.

Disruption is blockable. 74.174.46.41 (talk) 16:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Your contributions are telling. Please don't think that starting a section called "presidential lies?" at the Talk:Barack Obama morass is going to be remotely helpful. If you're interested in actually discussing something, go prepared with reliable sources that actually back up any assertion and don't be deliberately provocative. — Scientizzle 16:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The Talk:Barack Obama page is for discussion of the article, not for attacks on Barack Obama. Wikidemon was right to remove it. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 16:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

(I was not notified of this discussion) I deleted it because it was primarily an attack on other editors, and it was impossible to separate that from any nugget of a proposal for the article. In doing so I advised the IP that they were welcome to make any constructive suggestion for improving the article. Wikidemon (talk) 17:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, the IP editor started a new thread that also begins with a personal attack, this time on me, which I've had to refactor twice now to stick to the proposal. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong to remove these personal attacks and I'll stop, but on the Obama talk page one has to be fairly firm lest it turn into a free-for-all (see above discussion, for example). Wikidemon (talk) 17:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not an attack. He's saying that his comments were removed, and giving the names of the users which did it. I'm not going to revert your reversion of my reversion of your refactoring, since I don't want to start an edit war, but I don't agree with your actions. Dendodge Talk 17:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

There should be a very high threshold for editing other people's contributions on talk pages, and this doesn't even come close to crossing the threshold. looie496 (talk) 17:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

No, not really. here is a case in point from an article on my watch list. Complaints about other editors have no place on article talk pages, particularly not Barack Obama, which is on article probation. Singling specific editors out like that is a personal attack, and deleting the attack is not editing a talk page comment - it does not change the substance of the proposal one bit. The other option is to delete or close the thread entirely, which would only incite the editor further.Wikidemon (talk) 17:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case, you are also making a personal attack, since you're singling out a specific editor. I think you need to recognize the distinction between "attack" and "criticism". We get to criticize; we have to criticize. --jpgordon 18:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Wikidemon, but you're being oversensitive. This is not a personal attack and does not justify removal or refactoring as done here. The comment about you was undeniably true, non-offensive, and relevant. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with it IMO. Oren0 (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sensitive, firm. I'm not exactly shedding tears over the computer from the insult. The IP editor had made three increasingly disruptive attempts in a row to start the same discussion, harangued one of the regular editors, and started the lame complaint above before finally saying it in a way that was almost acceptable. That's pretty close to wearing out the welcome. What I deleted was editor-on-editor sniping, phrased as a process request to not delete the discussion. The request got honored - the discussion is ongoing right now. There is absolutely no reason to also preserve a moot, inapt complaint about other editors on the talk page. Spend some time patrolling the Obama article and you'll see why we need to keep the discussion on track and not use the talk page to cry censorship.Wikidemon (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

What insult? Yes, you are right in objecting (and even removing) to the anon's edits; but doing them under the rubric of "personal attacks" is not helpful. --jpgordon 18:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Taken as a string of successive edits, the anon in short order accused people of editing in bad faith, censorship, being POV pushers, vandalism, and sanitizing the Obama article all because they objected to his pointing out Obama's "lies." You may be right on a technicality that the specific edit was intrinsically some other form of incivility rather than a personal attack - but it's all about the same. Editors who start off so tendentiously on that article usually cause a flame out. Telling them early, firmly, that it is okay to make good faith proposals but not to do battle with other editors, can do some good.Wikidemon (talk) 19:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a horrible suspicion that come inauguration day we're going to see a whole host of "nigga stole my country" style crap, combining the worst excesses of wingnut drivel and redneck bigotry. Maybe this will be the article that pushes us over into the German flagged revisions system. Guy (Help!) 20:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm the IP editor. I have become more and more polite. However, Wikidemon's actions should not be supported. Just because someone has friends on wikipedia or is an administrator, doesn't give them the right to delete reasonable comments that they don't like. Only comments like "obama is a muslim" can be deleted. All other suggestions for article improvment must stay.

The article is frankly terrible. There is missing important information, some removed by editors who live there and some fluff. We need to look at other encyclopedias and TV documentaries to see what they have. They have some information which is a little negative but negative information is not permitted here. It is quickly deleted. That's bad. I'm not out to smear Obama, in fact I voted for him, but we must neutrally report him, not be his public relations firm.

Wikidemon must be blocked for about 12 hours or a day. Otherwise, I will interpret it as permission to delete one or two talk page comments which I oppose. At the least, a warning should be placed by an administrator on Wikidemon's page. 74.174.46.42 (talk) 21:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Your ultimatum is unwelcome, and will be roundly ignored. --jpgordon 21:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

(EC)Exactly, Jpg. IP, please don't make threats to disrupt to make a point. Dayewalker (talk) 21:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikidemon's deleted other talk page comments, like the one by Neurolenis. This is disruptive. I am giving up because people are not fair. At the very least, an administrator should politely warn Wikidemon not to delete talk page comments. I will say no more about this but appeal to people's fairness to act nicely and don't play favorites. 74.174.46.42 (talk) 21:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, not a place to voice your opinion. You're looking for Usenet, it's over there. ----> Guy (Help!) 23:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Deleting comments is one thing, but I would like to request that other people's talk page comments never be revised except to fix formatting problems or add signatures. When I read a talk page comment, I want to be confident that I'm reading what the author wrote, not somebody else's idea of what they should have written. looie496 (talk) 01:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Robot programs filling in missing signatures is an accepted practice. Re-aligning indentions is considered OK as long as it does not deceive. But altering the content is strictly verboten. Baseball Bugs 03:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

New problem, same article talk page

I don't know what Wikidemon did but a similar thing happened to me.

I made comments about improving the article. It was completely neutral. It asked whether we should keep the political positions section static or adjust it for inevitable changes in positions (all presidents change some positions).

This is clearly not anti-Obama. Yet is was removed. An IP removed it.

Obama is clearly controversial but article talk pages shouldn't be removed especially mine which asks simply policy questions on how to deal with the article.

I make a motion that the talk page of the article be placed under special probation of blocking any editor that removes article talk page comments. The only exception would be clear and unmistakable vandalism. If it is not clear vandalism, then the deleted must be blocked. ImNotObama (talk) 03:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Moulton is back, need CU?

Banned user (alternately banned by both Jimbo and Cary Bass) is back again. He's tagged my page with nonsense,, has posted on Jimbo's several times, and appears to be on that IP for some time now. Might ferret out more of him from that IP, if he has other accounts. He also tagged me on meta (where he is also blocked), as he appears irked that I've blocked him from communicating with me via Misplaced Pages Review and for calling him out on his general B.S. and faux martyrdom there. rootology (C)(T) 21:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Now now, assume good faith; someone else could have a fixation on "pre-Hammurabic tribal cultures"... --NE2, WR lurker 21:41, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL! --David Shankbone 21:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

 Confirmed that this is Moulton (how could it not be?!). No socks apparent. Sam Korn 21:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Images on Wikimedia Commons

There is a serious backlog in Category:Images on Wikimedia Commons. You may want to clear some of that. -- Cat 23:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

User:AndrewWeaver and his orchestra

Odd case here. Not only do we have this account, but five more numbered "AndrewWeaver1" through "AndrewWeaver5." That sort of multiple account creation tends to set off alarm bells in my head. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 00:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

While strange, not against policy that I know of so far. For convenience:

• AndrewWeaver (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• AndrewWeaver1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• AndrewWeaver2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• AndrewWeaver3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• AndrewWeaver4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• AndrewWeaver5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Toddst1 (talk) 00:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Be a really good idea to keeep an eye on that. That just screams 'sock farm'. HalfShadow 00:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless they're just 'red' herrings, to distract you from his real socks. Baseball Bugs 00:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Or someone having a bit of fun with the account creation tool. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Or someone who knows they're going to be editing on multiple accounts (public terminals, semi-automated work you don't want clogging your history etc) but wants to ensure they're easily identified as being from the same editor… Iridescent 2 (talk) 01:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting you do anything; we should just keep an eye on them, that's all. As the saying goes: 'It isn't paranoia if you're right.' And I'd rather be wrong and be sure I was wrong. I mean certainly we should assume good faith, but on the other hand...HalfShadow 02:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Educate the intolerant

After seeing this anti-Islam comment in my watchlist today, I did a little poking around and

found some strongly hateful anti-gay comments coming from User:Lestrade at Talk:Raymond Burr and Talk:Emily Dickinson and Talk:Mario and the Magician and Talk:Christopher Lee and Talk:G. H. Hardy. (There are possibly many more, I only spent 10 minutes searching after seeing the first one: enough to establish that it was a pattern that I could bring here.)

I don't know what process to submit this kind of behavior to, and I don't really want to think about it right now. Hopefully someone here can deal with the whatever lasting impact he might have made. Ugh. I need a shower. (Please just move the thread if I've posted in the wrong place. I can follow pagehistory trails. Thanks.) -- Quiddity (talk) 00:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Ick. Block. Forever. X MarX the Spot (talk) 00:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Ick yes, but those comments are (save the first) all months old. If this user is an active current problem, please provide some newer diffs. I agree that an admin with some time should warn them, but not clear if they're a serious active ongoing problem or not. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I've also seen this guy around on occasion, but I don't think a block is warranted - after all, many of the comments did point to actual article problems, such as poorly-sourced or speculative information, and he hasn't been editing article content to reflect his views. The fact that he ascribes this to a "gay conspiracy" is divisive and could create conflict; he should be warned to avoid this in the future, but his actual effect on article content will hopefully be positive. Dcoetzee 01:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I know it was a while since he made the comments. I know he's not overtly or consistently disruptive. I know most of his contributions thus far have been constructive. I know blocks should be prophylactic not punitive. Nevertheless such edits predict his inevitable banning. Mark my words. X MarX the Spot (talk) 01:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

just my two cets, what bit of advice that iw ouwld offer you is that its usually better to block someone when they becomine a distruption rather than before they do. the natur eof wikipedia means that most damage is temporary and eaisly reversible by either regular users or oversight by people wiht special adminsitrative privileges. its better to forgive adiviseive conment made several months ago rather than trying to start a new dispute now. tahats my advice though, so dont take it as policy by any means. Smith Jones (talk) 02:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone notified him of this thread? Maybe he's reformed. It seems like the best thing to do would be to talk with him about it, let him know that that behavior is inappropriate, thank him for stopping, etc. L'Aquatique 02:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Ja. Todd-someone-or-other has clued him in. X MarX the Spot (talk) 02:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

He should not be banned. His anti-gay comments are so ridiculous that it is actually a good thing tolerate this. It helps to discredit the ideas he is arguing in favor for. If you systematically ban such people then they claim to be victims of "censorship by liberal websites". You get a situation where reliable information is seen to be unreliable by these people, simply because it is on such a website. This effect already exists, but you make it much worse if anti-gay activists can point to censorship. California Proposition 8 (2008) was passed because people still buy anti-gay arguments. Count Iblis (talk) 02:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Well let's not over-egg the pudding here, Count. Truth be told I'm not overcome with a "Ach! Ban teh Bigot!!" sentiment here. His silly views, in and of themselves don't really faze me. I'm thinking about the inevitable disruption he's gonna cause. It's for that reason I say shit-can him now, because it seems the most efficient course of action. X MarX the Spot (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Some of his comments are helpful. Others such as this one are just soapboxing. If it becomes too disruptive we can block but I don't see a good reason to do so at this time. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Quiddity, I'm assuming you meant "strongly hateful" in the PC sense. This guy's actually (thus far) quite mild as anti-gay soapboxer kooks go. He's mostly just ignorantly soapboxing; he hasn't threatened or specifically attacked anyone, he isn't spamming talk pages or POV pushing in articlespace...easier just to ignore him, really. If he becomes a more serious nuisance someone will probably indef him. I'm sure he'll be unlikely to be missed. Bullzeye 03:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I say leave him until he digs a hole for himself; having an opinion you don't like isn't a blockable offense. Having an opinion you don't like and stating that opinion in a offensive or disruptive manner, though... HalfShadow 03:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Everyone here arguing for a speedy block need to keep their own intolerance in check and review the block policies. While he should tone down his rhetoric, he is right about poorly sourced and weasel-tinged speculation. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 03:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

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