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User:Tundrabuggy and edit warring over images at 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict

I am quite frankly tired of the constant edit warring around images, an a discussion were the arguments change by the minute 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict.

WP:ARBPIA was supposed to take care of this type of POINT behavior, were one editor is warring over content that by any objective measure belongs in an article. I know ArbCom doesn't rule on content, but my issue is not that: is that every time I see consensus developing, positive conversations happening, in comes Tundra and bang, screams "no consensus" reverts everyone, and then generates a new polarization. Reasonable differences are to be expected, but POV pushing to where no consensus is possible is not.

I have tried in multiple occasions to engage Tundra, and have even defended the editor from uncalled for attacks, but the behavior exhibited is not one that moves us forward, but keeps us stuck in a partisan and devisive environment. Let us argue with the dim hope of acheiving a good article, not with the nagging feeling that one is in the talk page of some debate website.

But really, this is the straw:

Tundrabuggy (Talk | contribs) (142,259 bytes) (→Gaza strip: No consensus. POV and unbalanced. Time to take this to arbitration I think)

Ok. ArbCom, ball in your court.

--Cerejota (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Possibly ban Tundrabuggy and Cerejota from removing or reincluding images on this article for a month? PhilKnight (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Tundrabuggy is a troll. Ban him permanently. Moreschi (talk) 15:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I've had several disagreements with Cerejota on that page, he's new to I/P articles. But I've found him more than amenable to discussion, consensus and good-article building, and he came to that page because of a keen and real interest in military history, which indeed is in part what the page deals with. I won't comment on Tundra, since I'm biased, except to remark, more for comic effect, that I don't believe Cerejota shares outland views like Tundrabuggy's belief that Jews, collectively, constitute 1% of the world's Muslim population. It is hard to work with people who think like that.Nishidani (talk) 16:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This is an aside, however I think he was saying that around 20% of humanity are Muslims, while 0.02% are Jews. I'm not sure if that was relevant to improving the article though. PhilKnight (talk) 20:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Following comments here, and a bit more background checking, I've given Tundrabuggy a 1-month ban from 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, and listed Cerejota as notified of the restrictions. PhilKnight (talk) 19:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Very sneaky - posting this here without giving any sort of notice to Tundrabuggy to discuss his edits. I would think the blocking admin would have made sure that TB had a chance to discuss his edits before banning him from the article. Cerejota previously unsuccessfully tried to get TB blocked on some nonsense 3rr violation, so this looks like revenge. This ban was based on some kangaroo court of partisan editors (see block log). I would strongly advise the banning admin to reconsider this ban. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The page is on my watchlist, and the edit warring over pictures has got out of hand. PhilKnight (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, apparently overlooked by the banning admin was that per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions, a ban must come after some sort of warning, none of which was given to this editor. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Disagree PhilKnight (talk) 20:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? A vaguely worded warning from his first week of editing nine months ago is the warning?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The standard message was given to Tundrabuggy June 2nd. This is the same warning everyone else gets, and yes, it covers the requirement dictated by the remedy.--Tznkai (talk) 21:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

That satisfies the letter of the ruling, but not the spirit. Turn it around and look at it in the context of some other topic area (say, pseudoscience). Would it be fair to ban an editor for 30 days from an article, without a single warning to their talkpage, and then defend it as, "Oh, well, you were warned 6 months ago, you should've known a ban was coming?" I think that if an editor is editing in such a way that no warnings are needed for several months, that we should do them the courtesy of at least one new "warning shot across the bow" on their talkpage before proceeding to a lengthy ban. --Elonka 21:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. This is not simply a question of bureaucracy. The question is whether Tundrabuggy was aware that the topic area was under arbitration sanctions. Clearly he was - he has been notified before and he is well aware of what is expected of him. It should not be necessary to notify an editor every time he edits a new article in the same topic area or after every arbitrary period of time. If an editor is aware of arbitration sanctions, he should modify his behaviour thereafter. There is no time limit at which a notification "expires". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Does this qualify as a 'warning shot across the bow'? Nableezy (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

What's more shocking, it that Cerejota, one of the most partisan editors I have ever come across (see history of Roof knocking) gets some friendly warning while he knows good and well about the Arbcom rules for I-P articles, while TB a relatively new editor, gets blasted with a ban without any sort of valid warning. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Brewcrewer, I notified the entire talk page of the article in question, on a single thread. --Cerejota (talk) 21:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by the ban as well. Before imposing discretionary sanction bans, the ArbCom requires that a warning be issued to the editor first, to give them an opportunity to moderate their own behavior. I see no such warning on Tundrabuggy's talkpage. --Elonka 21:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Tundrabuggy has had plenty of exposure to arbitration sanctions before; he certainly can't be said to be ignorant of the restrictions that the ArbCom has imposed on these articles. If I recall rightly, I notified him myself some time ago about arbitration sanctions , and I note that his talk page is full of people requesting him to stop edit-warring and reverting against consensus, so there was clearly a problem here that needed to be resolved. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but though you're an administrator, you're also an involved editor in the topic area. I'm more looking for something in the nature of, "Hi, I'm an uninvolved admin. Your behavior lately when you <fill in blank> was not acceptable, and discretionary sanctions are being considered. To avoid this, you need to <fill in blank>." Then, if the editor still ignores a clear warning, then on the next infraction, admins can either choose to warn again, or just proceed to a ban or block. The amount of warnings necessary prior to a sanction can vary depending on a lot of factors: Is this an editor with a history of good content contributions, or an obvious SPA; is the editor antagonizing a lot of other good editors, or are there multiple people that are causing the problem; has the editor been banned/blocked before, etc. My own experience with Tundrabuggy is that when he receives a clear warning from an uninvolved administrator to modify behavior, he does so. But I haven't seen a warning from PhilKnight on Tundrabuggy's talkpage for several months. Instead, TB's talkpage was quiet for days, and then suddenly PhilKnight appears with "You are banned for 30 days". If I were an editor in that topic area (or any topic area), that's not how I'd like to be treated. And even for you, ChrisO, if you were being disruptive, even though you've received warnings (and a ban) in the past, I would hope that any administrator who was concerned about your behavior would do you the courtesy of a warning before placing another discretionary sanction. Isn't that how you would like to be treated? --Elonka 22:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Have a look at Cyde's warning. PhilKnight (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It's been suggetsed that a number of people on the talk page opposing Tundra are SPA's, for what that's worth (I can't speak to that, just noting it). Effectively, no warning was given Tundra which is highly improper. June 2nd(?) was a while ago. I'll also note that on Cerejota's talk page, the message reads: "This message does not necessarily mean that your current editing has been deemed a problem..." Is that a warning? I'll answer my own rhetorical question: no. So, one user gets a ban with no warning, and the other involved user gets no ban and no warning... IronDuke 21:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Not sure how relevant this is, but I've pointed out the ARBPIA sanctions a couple of times on the talkpage of this article, including reproducing the entire notice once. Anyone who has been editing it consistently over the last couple of weeks will have seen the notice. Avruch 22:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to note that the last time PhilKnight has been involved in an Arbitration enforcement issue it was also a very questionable action taken against a pro-Israel editor. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive30#Jaakobou, where PhilKnight issued a "final warning" to an editor after a bunch of uninvolved admins agreed that no warning at all was warranted. I would suggest that PhilKnight remove himself from being an uninvolved admin regarding the I-P conflict. I am not suggesting that he isn't neutral, but I think it's important that editors have true confidence in the system. PhilKnight has apparently lost the confidence of half of the editors at the I-P conflict. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's true that PhilKnight has "lost the confidence of half of the editors at the I-P conflict" and even if it were that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing anything wrong. This article is a hotspot, with lots of conflict and inappropriate comments and actions flying around. Which "side" you're on is really not relevant - we all ought to be on the side of Misplaced Pages, and permitting this sort of poor conduct is not to Misplaced Pages's benefit. Avruch 22:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I explicitly disclaimed any ideas that PhilKnight is doing anything wrong. However, as I stated above, it is important the editors involved in the I-P conflict have confidence in the system and trust that they will be treated fairly. Unlike the other uninvolved admins, PhilKnight has clearly lost the confidence of half the editors. Of course "we all ought to be on the side of Misplaced Pages" and it's the most beautiful thing I've heard today. However, it is important that we be practical and realize what's going on here. There will be partisan editors here at WP for as long as WP exists. Most fundamental is the partisan editors have confidence that the system will treat all partisans fairly. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I’ve actually been having similar thoughts about Phil, but haven’t been sure enough to post them. Seeing as you’ve opened the discussion, I’ll make my thoughts known. I believe that, in terms of adminstrative actions, PhilKnight is reliably “pro-Palestinian.” I say this purely from my own, anecdotal observations, not from any exhaustive look at his logs. If there is a strong feeling that I make a study of it, I will, though I’d really rather not. I recall that in the Eleland “cunt”/”douchebag”/”He can go fuck himself” affair, wherein Eleland (a pro-Palestinian editor) compared a self-identified Jewish editor with a Nazi (widely regarded as itself being antisemitic), Phil reduced his block to a week, citing in the log that it was based on “rough consensus.” By my count, the feeling was running at about 9 for the block, 9 against, discussion here “Rough?” Yes. “Consensus?” Not at all. Phil does not, AFAIK, take much part in editing articles in the I-P area. This would allow him to appear as “uninvolved” when enforcing ARBPIA decisions, but my impressions leave me with the feeling that he has a strong POV, and that his enforcement efforts are demonstrably one-sided. I’d like to be wrong about this, and would welcome evidence to the contrary. IronDuke 22:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I wish that Tundrabuggy had been warned on his talk page before a ban was put in place. That being said, Cerejota did warn him at Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict#edit_summary that this discussion had begun and based on Tundrabuggy's almost continuous presence on the talk page I would find it hard to believe that he was not aware of this discussion before the block came down. I would also like to point out that Cerejota previously referred Tundrabuggy to the 3 revert warning board for removal of pictures of casualties of the conflict (there was some consensus to include pictures of the casualties of the conflict) after which Tundrabuggy continued to remove pictures . A summary of these events can be found at Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict/Archive_25#Pix_.28restored.29. This latest removal is the straw that breaks the camel's back.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh please, counting Cerejota's warning as something to be reckoned with is like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse. Cerejota himself was blocked a few weeks ago for edit-warring at an I-P conflict article. Cerejota spends most of his time here at WP edit-warring and issuing bogus warnings to editors (see his talk page history). He secretly brought this complaint here without giving TB any sort of notice. The 3rr that he initiated against TB was nonsense and was consequently closed with no action taken. The picture controversy is exactly the type of issue where TB's viewpoint is needed. Unless of course we want the whole article plastered with pictures of dead and burned Arab babies.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Look, I know you and Tundrabuggy are buddy buddy and it's quite obvious that you hold the same opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That in itself should be a warning that your edits might lack a necessary amount of neutrality, or give the appearance of a lack of neutrality. But this discussion should clearly be about policy, not politics. We wouldn't be here if Tundrabuggy were just expressing his viewpoint. Tundrabuggy repeatedly removed pictures against consensus and after numerous, numerous discussions where consensus was that they should be kept. It's called edit warring and it can get you blocked on wikipedia. Please take care not to confuse the issues.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 22:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that TB and I are buddy-buddy, and we share similar views about the I-P conflict. However, this conversation should not be about politics nor about who is buddies with who. What's important is that we not confuse a partisan and previously blocked editor's comment as a valid warning. TB has removed the pictures when there was no consensus for the addition of the POV-violative pics. Even with all the SPA's, you guys were unable to get any sort of consensus to turn the article into a picture album of dead Arab babies. If you call me non-neutral because I opposed turning the article into the Holocaust article, then yeah, I'm not neutral.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Please don't lump me in with the SPAs. As far as being one of the "guys" you refer to, my concern with the page is with the censoring of the pictures, which began with anonymous editors removing them without edit summaries. I am in the group of "guys" who would like to see this page reflect an "honest" portrayal of this war. That includes not forgetting about the casualties. Obviously, this issue goes hand in hand with finding a "balance" on the page that people will accept. Do some of Cerejota's edits look partisan to me? Yeah. Do some of your edits look partisan to me? Yeah. Do some of my edits look partisan to you? I suspect they do. (By the way, don't tell anyone, but I actually secretly do have an opinion about things). What's relevant here however, is the constant edit warring by Tundrabuggy that has gone on over these pictures, which in my opinion, was against consensus. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 23:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• To elaborate with an opinion now that I've fully read the rest of this... the requirement for a warning is intended to ensure that folks open to sanctions understand that before they fall afoul of them. We don't need to assume that they'll forget with time once told- clear warning one time is all that is needed to make editors aware that caution is necessary, and awareness is all the warning step is supposed to create.

• Since he's an editor in the conflict area, has been warned directly about the IP sanctions, has been warned and cautioned repeatedly about his conduct and has most likely seen my notes about the IP sanctions on the talkpage of the article in question... It seems strange to suggest that Tundrabuggy would have been unaware that his actions left him vulnerable to sanction. If he was aware, then the need for a warning is met. Avruch 22:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• The idea behind warning is to ensure that an editor is aware of communal norms and special restrictions - Tundrabuggy's behavior has been an issue multiple times before and even though time has passed, there's no reason to believe he would have simply "forgotten" what is and isn't acceptable. Regardless of the special sanctions in this area, his behavior was over the line. Editors who consistently edit war and block/stall consensus should be politely led out of that subject area and encouraged to contribute in places where they can contribute productively. There's only so many times we can say "please don't do that" before we have to acknowledge that the soft touch doesn't always work. Shell 23:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Davidwr

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Date_delinking#Temporary_injunction

Arbcom ruled that dates may not be mass linked or delinked during the case. Davidwr (talk · contribs) edited this template Oldprodfull to mass-delink dates in all uses of it with the express purpose of mass-delinking dates per Template_talk:Oldprodfull#Dates_dewikilinked. MBisanz 02:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I acted in good faith. I wish I could say I was unaware of the injunction but it does look vaguely familiar. It just didn't register when I made the edit. Looking at the wording of the injunction, I'm not sure it's even applicable. From what little I know of the case, it concerns using tools that make many edits, not making a single edit to a widely-used template. Because I am not convinced the injunction applies, I won't revert myself. I will however not make similar edits until this matter is clarified. I have no objection to any editor doing arbcom enforcement reverting this edit, but I would ask that if they do, they put a note on the template talk page referring back to the case, so 1) future well-meaning editors don't make the same edit and 2) when the case is over, it will be obvious that such an edit can or cannot be made.

MBisanz, thank you for bringing this to my attention. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Additional comments: If this temporary injunction does apply to templates, and it is in place for very long, it could cause more problems than it solves. If the injunction will be in place for more than a week or two, I recommend that ARBCOM make it clear that making a single edit to a template does not constitute a "program of mass linking or delinking of dates in existing articles." If the injunction does apply to templates, be prepared for more incidents such as this one. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I imagine the purpose of the injunction is to prevent masses of edits that would be difficult to undo. In this case we are talking about 1 edit which could have been much more easily reverted than bringing it here. I'm struggling to see any express purpose of mass-delinking dates here either. Kevin (talk) 02:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

To be fair to MBisanz, the injunction could be read to enjoin editing templates, particularly if the editor's purpose is to "fix" many articles in one fell swoop. It's just not the reading I have. My reading is that this applies to mass runs of edits that are a pain to undo if the wrong thing gets changed, not single, quick-to-undo edits which happen to affect large numbers of articles. Clarification from ARBCOM or the community may be needed. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Okey, we can disagree on the exact purpose, hopefully the case wraps up soon enough to make these sort of things moot. MBisanz 04:05, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Re: make moot: On that we have WP:CONSENSUS! davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

User:O Fenian

O Fenian (talk · contribs) is removing sourced material from Chronology of Continuity IRA actions. This article comes under the The Troubles Arbcom ruling. All of the material is sourced. O Fenian maintains that because some of the sources do not state dates, all of the material for each entry should be removed - rather than letting a fact or cn or even a refimprove template stand for a while so that better sources can be found. Note that many of the current sources are eminently reliable, such as the BBC and the Independent Monitoring Commission. Similarly, rather than amend an entry that had said someone was arrested and charged, he is removing it rather than correcting it to match the source (the Irish Times newspaper), which states the person was sentenced. I warned him about breaching 3rr, sought an administrator's input then remembered this Arbcom and posted about it, saying the article was actually under 1RR - and O Fenian reverted again. I concede his point about some of the sources where material has been removed (dead link, internet forum), but the BBC, Irish Times and Independent Monitoring Commission are pretty reliable. I do suggest that the material be restored with appropriate tags where necessary so interested editors can at least see there is a challenge to the dates and can see if there are additional sources. Bastun 02:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No, I am removing unsourced or improperly sourced information from the article. Bastun points out the BBC are reliable, well yes they are. However the only time the BBC are cited in the information I removed is in this addition;

• "9 January 2009 The CIRA issued a statement threatening to shoot drug dealers who were using their groups name as a cover for criminal activity. In the statement they said "Following investigations into drug dealing and allegations of CIRA involvement into activities in Belfast it has come to our attention that some individuals are using the name CIRA to engage in drug dealing activities". Five days later a man was shot in a paramilitary style attack in west Belfast." It is sourced by the BBC and undated link.

I have asked multiple times on the talk page for Bastun to reply to my questions, one of which includes "The BBC article says nothing about the CIRA, so who says it is connected to their statement?" and have received no reply other than the false assertion he has answered the question. Check the BBC article for yourself, it does not mention the Continuity IRA, it does not mention drug dealing, and tellingly it says "They added that a motive for the shooting had yet to be established and that there were no further details at present". So why is Bastun so intent on adding it back to the article to imply a connection between that and the CIRA's statement? That is just one of a number of problems with the material. I have attempted repeatedly to discuss the problems with his edits with him, and received nothing but evasion in response. O Fenian (talk) 02:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Bastun, you really didn't explain why the Trouble's ruling would be applicable here. This seems like a content dispute that should be handled through dispute resolution. Shell 03:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The remedy applies to: "All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, the Baronetcies, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related." The Continuity IRA is a splinter group of the Provisional IRA, one of the main protagonists in the Troubles.

What's the guideline for content disputes - revert then discuss? I tried that, and got accused of making a "disgusting revert" and was told never to revert him again. I have answered O Fenian's questions, but even accepting that the references need improvement and including a "refimprove" tag, I get reverted. Bastun 10:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"I have answered O Fenian's questions". Can anyone see where on the talk page or here Bastun has answered questions 2, 3, 4 and 7? This constant evasion and false assertions about having answered the questions are very tedious. O Fenian (talk) 12:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

As an aside you're both over the 1RR rule for Toubles related articles. --Blowdart | 12:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes - I'd completely forgotten about the 1RR, and when reminded of it, . O Fenian then went ahead and reverted anyway, ignoring my suggestion of getting a third opinion. Thanks for your participation in the talk page. Bastun 14:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Sigh on all counts. Bastun, O Fenian: WP:3. Looking deeper into it, but this is getting irritating.--Tznkai (talk) 15:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm quickly running out of good ideas here, so this is what I'm proposing: Bastun and O Fenian are topic banned from anything related to Ireland until they've made fifty edits doing something else.--Tznkai (talk) 23:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Luka Jačov

Luka Jačov (talk · contribs) was blocked and WP:ARBMAC-warned for longterm slow sterile revert-warring at Greeks in the Republic of Macedonia in November. Today, after an absence of several weeks, he returned and resumed the exact same sterile reverts again. It's a to and fro between two completely different versions of the article; I readily agree the opposing version of the article is about as problematic as his, so I would have hoped to enter in some halfway fruitful discussion, but he doesn't seem to be willing or capable of that; all we get from him is perennial reverting to the exact same text. I ask for sanctions under ARBMAC; too involved myself to enact them in this case. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you think a restriction against reverting the article (except for vandalism) would be most appropriate? Since it usually takes two to tango, is there another party that might need that as well? Shell 03:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Back in November, the reverting was between him and a consensus of three (myself, User:ΚΕΚΡὩΨ, and User:NikoSilver. I'm not sure a classic revert parole will help all that much - he's the kind of guy who will just slow down the revert-warring to whatever the parole nominally says, but keep revert-warring all the same. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Momento at Prem Rawat (continued)

Less than a week ago Momento (talk · contribs) was warned on this page "that, if he continues to edit-war in order to resolve issues , instead of requesting appropriate intervention, he may also be sanctioned"

Momento however continues to apply reverts to the Prem Rawat article, citing only two from the last 24 h. (reverting out "Balyogeshwar" despite a standing consensus to keep it in which was agreed several months ago): 10:44, 26 January 2009 - 20:15, 26 January 2009

Momento was warned recently not to edit war on this article (20 January 2009); Momento is well aware the article is under article probation; Momento has been blocked for edit-warring on the Prem Rawat page in the past, which was 72 hours on last instance (see block log), and despite a recent formal warning on this AE page, continues the same behaviour: I don't think a block of this user should be less than his previous blocks for edit-warring on the page of his preferred guru.

As before, the relevant ArbCom remedies are Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat#Remedies from the Prem Rawat RfAr page --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

This isn't an edit war! Cla68 correctly suggested that the lead should start with who Rawat IS not WAS. This suggestion has been accepted by all and all the edits made are good faith attempts to reflect the change to the present tense. There has been and continues to be discussion on the talk page about it. Seven editors have edited the Prem Rawat article in the last 24 hours. Pongostick has made 4, I have made 3, Cla68 has made 3, WillBeBack has made 3, Rumiton has made 3, Jayen and Surdas 2 and Sylvie and now Wowest 1. All editors have added and removed material since Cla68's suggestion. I have made only 4 edits since the Arbcom warning and have already noted in the discussion that we may need Arbcom intervention. Please don't reward FrancisSchonken's targeting of me, he is trying to use you to get at me. He says about me "my preferred guru", be very careful about supporting an editor whose actions are solely based on religious intolerance.Momento (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Momento, Cla68 said nothing about names, so citing him is irrelevant. There has already been extensive discussion of this matter going back at least four years.   Will Beback  talk  21:35, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

You're right will, he didn't say anything, he just added a new title "Lord of the Universe" to this article without discussion. You and Francis allowed it to continue but my removing it is an edit war. And, according to Cla68's suggestion to put the first sentence into the present tense, which everyone agrees with, means that "Balyogeshwar" must go because he isn't known by that name. It is a title and it hasn't been used for more than 20 years.Momento (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• And, according to Cla68's suggestion to put the first sentence into the present tense, which everyone agrees with, means that "Balyogeshwar" must go because he isn't known by that name.

Everyone does not agree that we should omit the subject's life story from his biography. I think athat Cla68 just meant we should also include his current job title, not that we should delete his former titles and names. Regardless, there is no conensus for this change to text that has been stable for months, and which has been discussed for years. You've been warned about edit warring just this week, so ther's no excuse for this.   Will Beback  talk  21:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Since Cla68 changed the grammar tense of the first sentence from the past tense to the present tense there have been more than 20 edits that have maintained his present tense suggestion. No one is suggesting we "should"omit the subject's life story from his biography" but since the source for "Balyogeshwar" is a book written over 30 years ago, it cannot be said Rawat "is known as". And since the change in the article was started by Cla68 and I have made the same number of edits as you, how can I be edit warring and you're not. At least this gives Arbcom another chance to see how you and Francis single me out for special treatment.Momento (talk) 22:08, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Re. "...since the source for "Balyogeshwar" is a book written over 30 years ago...": that's not the most recent source used: either you neither really look at talk page discussions nor references, either you're wilfully disturbing processes. Neither is an excuse for edit-warring. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The source for Balyogeshwar is "The world of gurus" by Vishal Mangalwadi. According to the author's website it was written in 1977.Momento (talk) 22:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, more recent sources are e.g. mentioned in talk page discussions, see the one I linked to above. Still, no reason to embark on the next edit-war as you did. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:49, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Mangalwadi refers to DLM in the same paragraph so that dates it as the 70s. And the Srinivas Aravamudan book gives it as an alias of Guru Maharaj Ji which dates it to the 70s also. So neither support the claim that Prem Rawat IS known as "Balyogeshar" which is what the lead sentence incorrectly said. I was right to remove it. And it is not an "alternative name" as Will suggested, it is a Hindi title given to Rawat by others and discarded by him when he eliminated Indian/Hindu aspects of his teachings.Momento (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Momento, none of what you offer here is a valid excuse for edit warring. There was no BLP violation. If you wanted to make a change to sourced, stable text that had been discussed at great length, then you should have discussed it first on the talk page rather than started an edit war.   Will Beback  talk  23:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Say "edit warring" as often as you like WillBeBack but two edits isn't an "edit war". Pongostick, Cla68, Rumiton and your good self have made as many edits as I have, why is it that I'm the only one edit warring.Momento (talk) 03:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

To add to the problems with this article, it would appear that some editors are logging out to make reverts. (and from the other day ).   Will Beback  talk  21:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Momento, there's no religious intolerance. Objecting to accusations you can't substantiate, and which (like all personal attacks and most strongly the frivolous ones) reflect back unfavourably on the accuser. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

As an outside observer, I think those three edits I made recently may be the first I've ever done to the Rawat article, I'd say that a checkuser needs to be run on those IP reverts and that an uninvolved admin check the diffs to see if Momento did violate the article probation and the revert warning he was given recently. If so, I would suggest a longer than 72-hour block to follow the principle of escalating corrective actions. Cla68 (talk) 23:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The spirit of last week's warning appears to have been to encourage Momento to use regular processes rather than engage in edit warring. Although I do not edit Prem Rawat or related articles, my role in Jossi's retirement may lead some editors to doubt my neutrality here, so seconding Cla68's request for neutral review. Momento may be stretching the BLP policy a bit farther than it actually extends: the policy does not authorize unlimited reverts to neutral information. Talk discussion and content RFC are preferable, especially so soon after a formal warning. Durova 23:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

We don't need any more evidence or another neutral review Durova, anyone can see that I made three edits in 24 hours as did Cla68, WilBeBack, Rumiton and Pongostick. What separates me from these other editors (and the 6 other people who have edited this article in the last 24 hours) is that FrancisSchonken and WillBeBack's claim that my last two edits equal an "edit war". Since one was to remove an undiscussed and inappropriate addition to the article, the only question is why are you and the other admins allowing this witch hunt to go on? No one complains that Cla68 was naughty to add material without discussion, no one complains that Cla68, Rumiton, Pongostic and WillBeBack made 3 edits in 24 hours, no one even cares that the first sentence now has a redundant comma! No, hold on a minute, I care. And I'm going to remove it . Is this what you mean by "unlimited reverts"?Momento (talk) 03:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• This looks just like a day's Rawat editing to me, with Momento on 2RR Will on 2RR , Pongostick on 4RR , Surdas on 3RR , and two IP reverts. By all means run checkusers. Now of course you might ask, why is it that Momento is dragged here with his two reverts, rather than Surdas or Pongostick, or indeed Will? And if anyone still cares about writing an encyclopedia rather than counting reverts and hoping for the AE post that will finally get rid of the hated opponent: It's nonsense to say "Prem Rawat, also known as Balyogeshwar". Bal is Hindi for "baby" or "kid". It's a name Rawat had when he was six, and it meant "the kid master yogi". We've discussed that a number of times before as well. It's like saying "Bill Clinton, also known as Little Billy." If there's still people who don't get it, and insist on reverting that back in, it's not for lack of being told. I am tempted to say lock the article or topic-ban the lot of them for a week. Jayen466 02:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Jayen: Bravo! Olé! I hope more people like you will come to Misplaced Pages, and fewer of a differente kind.--Pedrero (talk) 04:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The reason that Momento bears blame in this matter is that he instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable. And then he proceeded to edit war over it, depsite having been specifically warned not to do so less than a week ago. While the inclusion or exclusion of this or that name may have merit, it should be discussed rather than just done unilaterally, especially when the issue has been discussed for over four years, including just last year at length including Momento. His behavior qualifies as tendentious editing. User:Pongostick has been warned repeatedly not to edit war, and informed of the topic probation. He has no excuse either.   Will Beback  talk  04:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

WillBeBack's comment above is a complete lie. Cla68 is the editor who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable" when he changed the lead that had been stable for months to put it in the present tense.. By changing the tense, which I agree with, he wrote that PR is a guru, which is not true. The article and every scholar on the subject says PR dropped the tiitle "Guru" and almost divine status in the early 80s. Rumiton reverted the error . Cla68 then made an edit to say PR is a "spiritual leader", which is not great . And then added "Lord of the Universe" as a current name for PR, without discussion, which is completely untrue . I then made my first edit of the day, removing the "LOTU" and "Balyogeshwar" titles that are not current names.. Then followed a dozen edits whilst people tried to get the best wording for who PR is - "philanthropist, teacher, teacher of meditation" etc but not "guru, LOTU or Balyogeshwar". During this WillBeBack reverted once, claiming to "restore names that have been discussed extensively", which is a complete lie since "LOTU" was a new addition less than 24 hours old, had not be discussed extensively and is not a title by which Rawat is currently known. The "LOTU" inclusion was removed by Rumiton . And then reinserted by a new editor Surdas. . Removed by Pongostick and then reverted by WillBeBack to include "LOTU" with the dishonest edit summary "undiscussed deletion of sourced, discussed material" since the "LOTU" title was not discussed. Pongstick reverted, Surdas reinserted "LOTU". I made my second edit of the day and removed "LOTU" and then another edit to remove "Balyogeshwar" because the sentence, now in the present tense for the last dozen edits, required that an old title from the 70s wasn't appropriate for the present. My editing in the 24 hour was based purely on Cla68's correct suggestion that the first sentence of the lead should state who PR is not what PR was. That suggestion has been accepted and still holds 20 edits later, the "LOTU" title has also been dropped and "Balyogeshwar" remains even though the source for it was written more than 30 years ago. It is a complete disgrace that admins who have read this complaint and followed the diffs haven't thrown this "complaint" back to FraqncisSchonken with a warning to stop harassing me. WillBeBack should also be warned, his gross distortion of the facts above to try to paint me as the person who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable", demand it.Momento (talk) 22:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't approve of Jayen's querulous contribution above (in view of Pedrero's reaction I'd even qualify it as somewhat "populist").

Only a few days ago Jayen attempted to infuse more and stricter WP:NOR material into the WP:NPOV policy. And then here the crux of the reasoning s/he presents is an elementary WP:NOR transgression. What should be the crux of our thinking on the content of this matter is what the sources say. It is a fact that readily available sources (reprints as well as new publications, e.g. from US university presses) refer to the subject of the Prem Rawat article as "Balyogeshwar". So, on the content side of the matter: no, Jayen's comment is missing the point, defends an "Original Research" stance and can only be qualified as tendentious editing.

And then Jayen's defense of the behaviour: where was, e.g., Will notified that he would have been behaving improperly on the Prem Rawat article? Where was he reprimanded recently for reverting on this WP:AE page? Will wasn't, that's clear. So, no, there's not a sound reasoning to put Will and Momento on the same line: it's just "quid pro quo" mud-slinging, bad style because Jayen provides a gloss of equality to what is profoundly unequal. So also on the behaviour side of the matter reprehensible tendentious editing by Jayen.

I think it's about time to take the cloak of protection offered to *edit-warring* editors like Momento by *ambiguous* editors like Jayen away, then pretty soon imho editing articles like Rawat's will become a harmonious enterprise. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Knowing another language is not original research, neither is having a rudimentary understanding of the culture one is purporting to write an encyclopedic article about. Here is Balganesh (baby Ganesh), here is Balhanuman (baby Hanuman), here is Balkrishna (baby Krishna). Jayen466 14:52, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• I think you have made your point rather well, Jayen. What do other editors think? Rumiton (talk) 15:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
  • What does any of that have to do with the edit warring that is being complained about here? These arguments should be made to explain edits and seek consensus beforehand, not to justify an edit war after the fact. (Even so, Jayen's links don't seem to touch on what Prem Rawat has been called during his life, the topic of this dispute. Whatever point Jayen is making belongs on the article talk page, not on WP:AE.)   Will Beback  talk  16:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• • • Will, as far as I can see, Momento's first removal of the Balyogeshwar name at 10:44, 26 January 2009, as diffed in the filing above, was not even a revert. The name had been there for months. Its removal became necessary because of Cla68's sensible edit changing the first sentence to present tense: . The old wording, "Prem Rawat, also known as Balyogeshwar ... became guru at age 8 ..." had long enjoyed broad acceptance by all, including Momento, because Rawat was called Balyogeshwar at the time he became guru. Once Cla68 changed it to present tense, "Prem Rawat, also known as Balyogeshwar ... is a spiritual leader based in California" , the childhood name no longer fitted. Rawat is no longer known as Balyogeshwar, and has not been for decades. That's what Momento fixed. So now Momento's two reverts, inasmuch as they relate to the Balyogeshwar name, are actually one. That gives you one more revert than Momento – and they are proper reverts, making the same change twice and undoing, rather than building on what another editor had just done – and you are just as aware of the strictures against edit-warring, just having reminded Momento of them. ;-) So let's remember WP:KETTLE and stop this. I suggest we return the article to strict 1RR rules; I seem to remember that worked quite well last year (once we had defined exactly what it meant). Jayen466 19:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
      • I don't recall anyone discussing these deletions before making them. The fact that an uninvolved editor drops in and changes the tense of a single word doesn't mean that we should re-write stable, relevant, sourced text to accomodate his change. The names could have just as easily be kept by splitting the sentence or other minor changes. For reasons that I don't entirely understand, Momento and other pro-Rawat editors have objected to including his alternate names, and it's pretty clear that Cla68's minor change was used as a pretext for deleting them. This issue does not involve any violation of BLP or other extenuating circumstances to excuse the edit warring that did occur. Momento knew he was making a controversial edit. He didn't discuss it and then he restored it, still without discussion. On a topic like this, already under probation, editors should seek consensus or at least give a thorough discussion before upsetting the apple cart. Constantly re-fighting settled issues is tendentious editing. 1RR can't work in an environment where brand new accounts and IPs appear out of nowhere to further edit wars started by established editors. I don't see any admins stepping up to handle the violations by Pongostick, so perhaps this case needs to go back to the ArbCom to get enforceable remedies.   Will Beback  talk  19:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Taking a more charitable view, one could also concede that the appellation "boy yogi" (which is what balyogeshwar means) is not very appropriate for someone in his fifties, especially when the text has been changed to imply that that is what he is called today. As for your point about 1RR, I'd suggest it is still worth giving a try. At any rate, my impression is that new editors are popping up on both sides of the debate, and 1RR would force people to talk and work out agreements. (Here's hoping!) Jayen466 19:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
          • No, I don't concede that we should delete things from biographies just because they happened decades ago. The text that implied he was being called that today should have been changed rather than deleting the relevant, sourced text. If a random editor visited Jimmy Carter and changed "is a former U.S. President and peacemaker" to "is a U.S. President and peacemaker" then we wouldn't delete the presidency even though it was almost 30 years ago. We'd adjust the grammar instead. As for 1RR, it didn't work before so I don't know why you think it would work now. 3RR isn't even being enforced, despite the ArbCom probation. What would work is if editors treat this as a controversial topic and use the talk page to seek consensus before making significant changes. Do you object to that?   Will Beback  talk  20:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
            • Hope that will do it for anyone. If not, then let's have any further discussion on where and how to mention the Balyogeshwar name on Talk:Prem_Rawat, please. Jayen466 00:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
              • Anyone who wants to make any significant change to the article, especially to material that has already been discussed, should first discuss it on the article talk page. There's no excuse for starting these edit conflicts.   Will Beback  talk  01:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
              • PS: Jayen, thanks for drafting that version, which is close to the status quo ante. It's fine with me.   Will Beback  talk  08:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
                • • Can't agree with Jayen's edits shown in the diff above (). It is just continuing the edit-warring. Sorry, Will, can't agree with you, these edits are not "fine with me", neither are they close enough to the status quo ante to be even near to acceptable. They are just Jayen showing off disruptive behaviour. The talk page discussion I linked to above (TWICE already, and here for the third time shows external links, AS SAID ABOVE to "readily available sources, including new publications, from US university presses", in other words scholarly publications, from English-speaking countries, published when Rawat was about 40 years old, *still* preferring Balyogeshwar as name for the subject. It shows Jayen (as well as Will, as other participants for that matter) ignoring what others have to say, and certainly not finding any time to look at a previous discussion or external links contained therein before feverishly proposing and implementing new solutions.
                    Really, this has to stop. I reiterate: Jayen has been disruptive while (1) being tendentious and incorrect on the level of content preferring a quick original research over careful perusal of sources, and (2) tendentious and showing favouritism on the level of behaviour. His way of ignoring other peoples comments and links is taking near proverbial dimensions. (as he recently did in the WT:NPOV discussion finally admitting "Having now read – which I failed to do at the time). Seems like for Jayen it's WP:TLDR too often, typing faster than reading previous discussion and external references. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
                • If all Momento did was 1 revert, then I'm not sure if it's serious enough for a block, in spite of the previous warning. I did, in fact, add Lord of the Universe to the lead without discussion (it was based on the Register article which stated that Rawat is also known by this title), so I don't think it necessarily improper for someone to remove that and ask for further discussion first. Cla68 (talk) 02:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
                  • No offense, but I think you're right that you "started" this, so to speak, even if with the best of intentions. Technically, the article probation applies to all editors but new or occasional editors can't be expected to know that. This topic has so many contentious issues that it is like a minefield. As my high school physics teacher liked to say in similar circumstances, "your punishment is 50 lashes with a wet noodle." Just don't do it again. ;)   Will Beback  talk  08:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No offense!!!! This is hilarious. It's taken you days to figure out what every conscious editor knew from the start. I spelled it out for you 30 edits ago. "Wet noodle"? You should resign as an admin and FrancisSchonken should be topic banned 6 months.Momento (talk) 09:55, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Jossi sent me an odd email last night (quite surprising) in which he both admitted that I was the proximate cause of his retirement, and acted offended. So setting the record straight. On 22 January at AE I defended Jossi against an unsubstantiated attack on his character, then did likewise when someone posted a corresponding attack from the other side. In the current dispute, going to mediation or a content request for comment would be a very good idea on all sides. Yet one specific party was warned for edit warring very recently. So particular attention there may be appropriate. Any Wikipedian whose neutrality may be challenged ought to disclose it proactively when weighing in at AE. Walking the walk there, and anyone who may have been contacted via backchannels about it is welcome to get both sides of the story. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Durova 17:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not Jossi was offended by your evidence section doesn't really matter to us here. What matters is if Jossi has any explanation or defense for his violations of the community's trust and standards which are detailed in your evidence. Cla68 (talk) 02:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a look through Durova's evidence to see how well it stands up to scrutiny. I have not clicked through all the diffs. But edits like this , given as examples of Jossi's wrongdoings, or Durova's entire argumentation in this section, don't convince me at all. Jayen466 14:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

When Jossi was a Wikipedian he faced several investigations spurred by his self-proclaimed conflict of interest. He was examined by Misplaced Pages's best and brightest and was cleared of all charges, in fact commended for his restraint. It seems now he is gone his history will be written by a self-serving reporter at the Register. It is a sad and pitiful situation. Rumiton (talk) 14:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

We're not here to discuss the current ArbCom case in which Jossi is a party. This noticeboard is for discussing enforcement of remedies in closed ArbCom cases. The applicable one here is Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat.   Will Beback  talk  21:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

<outdent>I believe that the editors of the Prem Rawat articles are in need of formal mediation. We had some informal mediation last year, but that fell apart after our mediator had his own problems and left Misplaced Pages. When formal mediation was subsequently explored, I was against assigning a designated representative for each side (for various reasons), but now I'm willing to consider representatives if that's what a mediator requires. I have been asking editors to refrain from making major edits on these article(s) main spaces for some time now, until they have proposed their changes and gained consensus on the talk page(s). Formal mediation will certainly make the process more tedious and slow everything down, but this article(s) always takes a lot of time and seems to be in a perpetual status of change, despite already-agreed-upon matters having been stable in the article(s). The practice by some editors of changing long-standing, stable edits is getting real old, real fast, given we are going on five years editing these Rawat articles. There are 39 archives on the Prem Rawat talk page alone! I'm sort of throwing out a desperate plea for help here to the community for some genuine assistance to rein things in. I also think that a tag needs to be placed on all Rawat articles warning new editors to discuss changes on the talk pages before editing the articles. Food for thought. Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 14:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

As I recall (correct me if I err) we were heading towards mediation but Francis didn't think it was a good idea. Rumiton (talk) 15:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You are erring. Further, please comment on edits, not on editors, that was near (too near) to a personal attack. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Sylviecyn is right that editors should discuss significant edits before making them. However I don't agree that mediation is needed at this time, because it is designed to settle specific content disputes and there aren't any major ones right now. However there is clearly are problems with the interactions of editors on the topic and the ArbCom's remedies haven't worked out well in solving them.   Will Beback  talk  21:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The only problem is some Admins are reluctant to apply the remedies. Last week Nik Wright2 made a dishonest complaint against me and FrancisSchonken and WillBeBack vigorously supported it. The remedy applied by Sandstein and backed by PhilNight was that Nik Wright2 was topic banned for one month and I was warned not to edit war to solve similar problems. A few days passed and FrancisSchonken made this complaint about me and WillBeBack has supported it to the extent of falsifying the editing. He has said I deserve "blame in this matter in that Momento instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable. And then Momento proceeded to edit war over it". In fact, it was Cla68 who "instigated changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable". And Cla68 belatedly confirms it here. And it was WillBeBack who indulged in the "edit war". WillBeBack's response to Cla68's belated admission is that he should be "lashed with a wet noodle". "Wet noodle" for Cla68 for "instigating changes to material that had already been discussed, was sourced, and was stable"? An Arbcom complaint for me for, and I'll let Cla68 say it, "If all Momento did was 1 revert, then I'm not sure if it's serious enough for a block, in spite of the previous warning". You're right Cla68, the revert isn't serious. What is very serious is the long term and persistent harassment of another editor (me) by FrancisSchonken and WillBeBack. FrancisSchonken needs to be topic banned from Prem Rawat and associated articles for six months (he made this absurd complaint after Nik Wright received a one month ban for the same behaviour). In May last year after another FrancisSchonken/ WillBeBack harassment I wrote "I don't deserve to be blocked, I deserve to be protected". WillBeBack needs to be stripped of his admin status. If a Misplaced Pages admin is allowed to indulge in this sort of behaviour despite previous complaints and appeals for help, heaven help Misplaced Pages.Momento (talk) 23:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Wehwalt

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Handled in more detail at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive509#User:Eleland. End result: Eleland blocked 2 weeks for incivility, WP:BLP issues addressed. MastCell  01:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm astonished at what's been going on for months on Adam Shapiro's biography. Wehwalt, an admin with years of experience, has been attributing blood-curdling calls for genocide to this guy, using personal homepages of fringe activists as sources. From the looks of this he first started his vendetta in 2006! It's unbelievable. Please, somebody, look into this. <eleland/talkedits> 00:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Read the rules, try again. (Hint: link an arbcom case an make an actual clear complaint instead of a broadside attack)--Tznkai (talk) 01:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

What do you want, diffs? Well, here's the earliest problematic edit, adding his own personal belief that Shapiro likes killing babies. That's September 2006. Here is the first time he starts fighting efforts to enforce BLP, where he restores blisteringly negative material sourced to somebody's personal Comcast homepage. That's May 2007. And then here he undoes a BLP enforcement action by User:Sceptre, in May 2008. Here again he restores a long string of material, some of which is merely dubious and some of which is blatantly libelous. As you can see he's been consistently restoring the libelous language and characterizing its removal as "vandalism."

And the arbcom case isn't actually necessary, come to think of it, since this goes right to core Misplaced Pages content policies, but it would of course be Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Remedies. <eleland/talkedits> 01:15, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Mentioning which arbcom case you are referring to is actually necessary for admins to be able to enforce ArbCom decisions. Admins cannot guess that and that's why Tznkai asked you to read the rules: This page is for users to list breaches of an Arbitration Committee ruling. It is not part of dispute resolution.-- FayssalF - 02:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Why do we even have policies to begin with? All you guys seem to care about is bureaucratic nuance, formatting, and punctillios. Meanwhile, an admin rewrites a biography of a living person to make him out as a genocidal maniac, and nobody seems to give a damn. <eleland/talkedits> 03:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to take your word for it Eleland - I'm not going to take anyone's word for it, and let me be blunt: abusing admins who respond to your complaints, combined with a sensationalist, overwritten and beligerant complaint makes me think the person causing the problem is the complainant - in this case you. I gave you a chance - albeit a strongly worded one - to do it right, and you decided to heap abuse on us for "not giving a damn."--Tznkai (talk) 04:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI, this thread on ANI might shed some light. Shell 02:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to start handing out blocks for abusing WP:AE--Tznkai (talk) 04:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

My god, what is wrong with you? Are you capable of reading English at an adult level? Wehwalt has been re-writing Adam Shapiro to portray him as a genocidal maniac, based on a Comcast personal webpage which claims to reprint a Lebanese newspaper which no longer exists. That isn't a question of taking words or of language, it's a question of fact. Has he or hasn't he? Do my diffs document BLP violations or don't they? <eleland/talkedits> 05:01, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

When someone posts a concern here on AE that properly belongs on another noticeboard, then unless the resolution of the concern is obvious in any event, the best response is probably to point the person to the right place rather than argue about why the person is abusing AE. Here, a response that the concern belongs better on the BLP noticeboard or ANI would probably suffice. (Not commenting on the merits of the underlying complaint.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 07:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you in general boss, but in this case this appears to have been a case of forum shopping.--Tznkai (talk) 07:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Please note that both the ANI thread noted above and the WQA were both started by other users. There are now diffs documenting quite serious BLP breaches by an admin (Wehwalt) and a link to a relevant arbcom decision. Note that the problem is not simply that there are BLP breaches (these are being more or less dealt with) but that these breaches were made by an admin, hence a possible need for 'higher level' resolution. Given that involved's on both ANI & WQA have agreed Wehwalt's edits are seriously problematic & discussion is ongoing, are you saying it is innapropriate here at the moment? And if not were should it be taken if discussion at ANI does not resolve the issues, ie is this remaining 'open' pending non-resolution there? Misarxist 09:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Your point about who started the threads is granted freely. As to the problem being such and such was done by an administrator - that is a serious problem, but not one in my opinion that can be handled by AE. Aside from the genuine philosophical disagreements as to how big a deal the admin bit is, discretionary Arbitration remedies don't care whether or not someone is an admin: just whether or not they're causing a problem. Review of administrator conduct and any sanctions related to their bit (read: have their admin bit removed) falls within the jurisdiction of the Arbitration committee, not AE.

Part of the problem here is likely me: I dislike arbitration enforcement being used to further conflicts between users and tend to require complainants to do more leg work. In addition, going back two years to build a case at AE also tends to make me suspicious. I am reluctant to sanction someone for edits they did many years ago - recent actions are easier to judge. I will however, do my best now to address the complaint:

The most recent questionable edit is this, where Wehwalt's summary was rv:vandalism. Its worth noting that the complaint said Wehwalt has "been consistently restoring the libelous language and characterizing its removal as "vandalism." " which hardly squares with a view of the last 500 edits to that article where the word vandalism shows up 3 times - only once used by Wehwalt. This is a reversion of an IP editor who had been editing without useful summaries or discussion, which generally is given greater tolerance (should it? I'm not sure, depends how bad sockpuppeting has gotten).

This edit was in fact a legitimate reversion and reveals what the fight over the "personal comcast" page is: the site hosts a copy of an article. Does that make it appropriate? Maybe, maybe not - but its relevant information that the complainant neglected to add.

Wehwalt made a significant run of edits as seen here which adds significant amounts of negative material. Compared to the most recent version like so shows it has been removed and then comparing to Wehwalt's most recent string of edits (several months ago) Wehwalt's most recent version like so (this week) shows that Wehwalt tried to maintain the substance of his material. The talk page suggests however, that that content evolved out of civil and productive discussion with User:Carolmooredc.

The primary problem with Wehwalt's content seems to be one of balance - too much negative material, but I am not a sufficient expert in the subject matter nor the nuances of BLP. Most of the editorial comments complained about in early edits have been stripped out since.

A brief review of the edit summaries shows that Eleland was totally over the top and disruptive, flinging wild accusations - its no wonder that his concerns weren't taken seriously - despite that, talk page suggests that Wehwalt tried to discuss civilly with him anyway.

At the end of the day, someone being wrong is not sufficient reason to sanction them under AE provisions, because I have not been given, nor have I found evidence to suggest Wehwalt is using any undue influence to affect control over the article. While there may have in fact been problems of BLP violations (I leave this to experts on BLP to determine) nothing suggests to me that Wehwalt cannot be reasoned with and the article improved under normal means. In fact, evidence suggests that the most objectionable material is very old (in wiki time) and has been since dealt with - which suggests that the wiki-way has worked here.

I have  Declined to take action at this time, but do not object to another admin taking action.--Tznkai (talk) 15:54, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

As Risker has noted on WP:AN/I, "When a situation can be corrected using Misplaced Pages policies, it should be. Arbcom general and discretionary sanctions are extensions of our basic policies that lower the threshold at which an administrative action can be taken. The ARBPIA sanctions are not required in this case, because the editors involved have breeched ordinary, everyday Misplaced Pages standards." I suggest that any followup discussion of this issue should take place in the ongoing thread at WP:AN/I#User:Eleland. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)