Misplaced Pages

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• Refining the administrator elections process
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Admin opinions needed

Saint Pancake has been speedied, undeleted, flagged for speedy again, had the flag removed, and had the flag reapplied all today. Can some more admins chime in and help develop consensus for what should be done?

Full disclosure: I was the one who flagged it for speedy deletion as a G10 first, and I believe it is a valid G10. After it was deleted and then undeleted, I tried to start a conversation about the situation—and about NPOV as it applies to redirects in general—at WP:NPOVN, but only 2 people have chimed in (one on each side).

Thanks, Mike R (talk) 21:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• Deleted again. G10 doesn't only apply to living people (G10 quote: "it serves no purpose but to disparage or threaten its subject"), and this is a particularly unpleasant pejorative epithet - used practically only in blogs - the existence of which reflects really badly on Misplaced Pages. I actually don't understand why it was recreated, especially as the recreating admin said "the term is a disparaging name " which is exactly what G10 actually says. Black Kite 21:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• While technically BLP does not apply we should rightly consider the feelings of her friends and family. Leave deleted and salt if required. Exxolon (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Indeed - and as said above, G10 doesn't only apply to living people anyway. It can also refer to groups, companies, organizations - in fact really anything that can be disparaged. Black Kite 22:05, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Per all of the above. This should not be a redirect; G10 applies. MastCell  22:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, G10 certainly applies to the dead as well as the living. —Travis 22:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• G10 does not apply, since the redirect does not "serve no purpose but to disparage or threaten their subject". Likewise per the examples at WP:REDIRECT "Butcher of Kurdistan redirects to Ali Hassan al-Majid" and al-Majid is a living person while Rachel Corrie is not. This is not as cut-and-dried as the above opiners would like to make it. Actually, it is... but in the other direction. Marked this thread unresolved. Jclemens (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion is for uncontroversial cases. Take it to WP:RFD. The discussion at WP:NPOVN shows that there are non-trivial arguments on both sides. EdJohnston (talk) 00:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Although you cannot threaten the deceased, articles and redirects can still disparage a dead person. G10 does apply. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Not only does G10 apply, it's a textbook G10. I'll say it again - "Pages that serve no purpose but to disparage ... their subject or some other entity". What other possible purpose could the page have? Since the nickname only exists to disparage (it's just an unpleasant nickname used on a few internet blogs and other user-generated sites) then it follows that the page only exists to do the same. Black Kite 00:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The difference, Jclemens, between this case and Ali Hassan is the reliable sources that have the 'butcher' reference. If and when the term becomes widely used and reported in reliable sources there may be a case for inclusion/redirect of this term in/to the article, until then there is none whatsoever. Quite frankly it disturbs me that an admin has such a poor grasp of That's not how I see WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. Exxolon (talk) 00:55, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's not. Find me one policy or guideline, anywhere, that requires redirects have reliable sourcing, and I'll withdraw my objections. Fact is, if someone had created Saint Pancake as a POV fork with any keepable content, it would have been merged back intoRachel Corrie and the redirect left in place. Really--read WP:REDIRECT; there's simply no support for your position there. Jclemens (talk) 02:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

That took me all of 30 seconds. WP:RS says "Misplaced Pages articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources" - if you check the footnote, it says "^ Articles include anything in the main namespace. Most other pages, such as Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, are exempt from this requirement." Since redirects ARE in the main namespace the policy applies. I have however refactored my sentence as you've requested to avoid any appearance of a personal attack. Exxolon (talk) 04:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)\

Then we have a serious disconnect between WP:REDIRECT which governs the specific case, and WP:RS, which doesn't mention redirects by name. Jclemens (talk) 05:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

We do? I've just (quickly) scanned WP:REDIRECT and came across "Reasons for deleting - You might want to delete a redirect if one or more of the following conditions is met (but note also the exceptions listed below this list): - 3. The redirect is offensive, such as "Joe Bloggs is a Loser" to "Joe Bloggs", unless "Joe Bloggs is a Loser" is discussed in the article." - this would seem completely appropiate to this case - which part of WP:REDIRECT are you looking at? Exxolon (talk) 05:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

There's a large does of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT going around. The redirect mirrors a notable off-wiki disparaging name for Rachel Corrie, it's not a Misplaced Pages-centric phenomenon. There is really no comparison with the "Joe Bloggs is a loser" example. The Butcher of Kurdistan example is far closer to the point. Jclemens (talk) 06:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

As one of the regular editors of the article, we've declined to put the Pancake into the article, it comes up every now and then. Lack of RS, mostly.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Yep, and no one in favor of keeping the redirect has argued (that I've seen) in favor of inserting it into the article. Jclemens (talk) 05:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to expect that redirects would be specifically called out as a form of attack, though I'm sure consensus to add it could be rapidly generated if it becomes an issue. If I created an article named fucking asswipe and redirected it to a person's page, would anyone seriously argue that that wasn't an attack? It's reasonable to argue over whether Sarah Pancake is an attack or not, but if it's an attack, formatting it as a redirect doesn't provide it with some kind of magic armor plating.—Kww(talk) 03:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem with your strawman, Kww, is that your example describes someone who uses a non-unique term in a specific redirect to disparage the target. As I've pointed out in the NPOV discussion, no one else is called "Saint Pancake" besides Rachel Corrie, the redirects have been averaging 12 hits a month in 2008, and the use of Saint Pancake to refer to Rachel Corrie clearly has a non-Misplaced Pages origin--thus the redirect reflects a disparaging name for Rachel Corrie widely used in right-wing circles, rather than a Misplaced Pages-specific attack on Rachel Corrie. Jclemens (talk) 05:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Even if you accept that "12 hits a month" is demonstrative of actual usage, it isn't very convincing for a site as visible in search engines as Misplaced Pages is. If a "St Pan cake" link gets a top spot among other "St Pa ncake" links in Google by virtue of being in Misplaced Pages, and therefore is occasionally clicked on, that means it should stay in Misplaced Pages? That sounds dangerously close to indirect self-referencing.

Additionally, that premise is based on a rather faulty assumption - that all of the clicks are indicative of usage rather than someone following a discussion thread. I know I can account for a few of those clicks, and a closer look at the general "stats.grok.se" link you referenced at NPOVN shows that "usage" spikes around discussion of the redirect's validity. arimareiji (talk) 06:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting argument, but I've Googled for "Saint Pancake" and I don't see Misplaced Pages anywhere in the results list, so up until today, it wasn'a substantial issue. I agree, though, that this thread has probably brought more awareness of the term than the redirects ever did in their 6+ years of combined existence, which seems the height of irony. Jclemens (talk) 06:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah... what other discussions of the redirects' validity? I wasn't aware these had been discussed previously. Jclemens (talk) 06:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

You might want to check over at the talk page and archives, if you're asserting this hasn't repeatedly been brought up and linked to. arimareiji (talk) 07:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The redirect was discussed on that talk page, or the inclusion or exclusion of the term from that article was discussed on that talk page? The latter is common knowledge, referenced above. The first, if true, is news to me. Jclemens (talk) 08:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not it's news to you, some would-be humorist keeps using fabricated/misrepresented sources to insert such gems as "Rach el Corr ie supporters held a fundraising pancake breakfast" and "known in her official hagiography as 'St Panca ke'". So yes, the nickname does come up along with a cutely-placed redirect to it. arimareiji (talk) 09:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is this discussion here? Anyone opposed to me reinstating the redirects and listing them at WP:RfD? If we're having a debate about it, then it's obvious that WP:CSD do not apply. ANI is not a place to discuss redirects--RfD is. Jclemens (talk) 06:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I strongly object. I have come up with two crystal clear quotations from Misplaced Pages Guidelines that preclude it's existence. The first mandates against it's creation (WP:RS says "Misplaced Pages articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources" - if you check the footnote, it says "^ Articles include anything in the main namespace. Most other pages, such as Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, are exempt from this requirement." Since redirects ARE in the main namespace the policy applies.) and the second would mandate it's deletion should it be created ("Reasons for deleting - You might want to delete a redirect if one or more of the following conditions is met (but note also the exceptions listed below this list): - 3. The redirect is offensive, such as "Joe Bloggs is a Loser" to "Joe Bloggs", unless "Joe Bloggs is a Loser" is discussed in the article.") - Unless the term is mentioned in sufficient reliable sources AND consenuse is established to include it in the article itself then there is absolutely NO case for having the redirect at the present time. Exxolon (talk) 06:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

To put it pithily, the name is unsupported by reliable sources, hence a CSD, both as an unlikely search term and prankish vandalism. If it ever becomes widely cited, for whatever reason, that'll be another tale. Gwen Gale (talk) 06:59, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Point - "The redirect mirrors a notable off-wiki disparaging name for <name of subject>" - I've yet to see you actually come up with any evidence that it is a NOTABLE off wiki disparging name. Exxolon (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

G10; a redirect is mainspace and is not protected from general WP policy. In response to your question of "Anyone opposed?", I would note that five people had already voiced explicit opposition just above the question, and two more since you've asked. arimareiji (talk) 07:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for those responses. Exxolon, Gwen Gale, lack of RS is not a speedy criteria under any circumstances. Arimareiji, G10 is disputed by multiple editors (check the NPOV noticeboard) and WP:CSD is not for things that are disputed. All of those arguments properly belong in an MfD disucssion. Now, does anyone have a policy-supported reason the CSD should stand, instead of being reverted and sent to MfD? Jclemens (talk) 08:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Easy - G10 - "solely to disparage it's subject" - which was applied on the 2nd deletion. Exxolon (talk) 08:41, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, G10 is disputed, so disputed discussions (and it was disputed before Black Kite deleted it the second time) should properly go to XfD, not wheel warring to re-delete a contested CSD. Oh, wait, I just said that above. Jclemens (talk) 08:45, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

As Gwen Gale said before your above comment (per timestamps), WP:DRV applies. "Misplaced Pages:Deletion review considers disputed deletions and disputed decisions made in deletion-related discussions and speedy deletions." arimareiji (talk) 09:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

If that's not sufficiently clear: "Deletion Review is the process to be used to challenge the outcome of a deletion debate or to review a speedy deletion." Not "Reverting a speedy deletion is the process to be used, then discuss it." arimareiji (talk) 09:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The RD is a CSD. CSD deletions can be disputed. See WP:DRV. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Redaction required

Normally I'm loathe to refactor other peoples comments, but I strongly feel we should remove all mentions of her actual name from this discussion - we're heavily spidered and we could create a self-fufilling prophecy here. Exxolon (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree in principle, but not in practicality. If any reliable news organization picks up on this when there are much more pressing topics to cover, I'll eat my hat. arimareiji (talk) 07:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd strongly object as well. Rachel Corrie is dead, has been for years, and is likely to stay that way indefinitely. The term has been in use since she died, and is likely to stay that way indefinitely. There is no reason to WP:CENSOR this thread. As I said elsewhere, I think the fact that this WILL show up on Google shortly is pretty funny--the redirect sat there minding its own business for years, then someone decided it was an "attack page" and pretty soon Google will have more hits on the term. Misplaced Pages didn't start the use of the term, but in the attempting to excise a relatively innocuous appearance thereof, the exposure of its use has been amplified. Classic Streisand effect. Jclemens (talk) 08:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not up to Misplaced Pages editors to forestall this kind of thing. If the term sticks, it'll be echoed here. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not it's a good idea, the argument that excising the name here will lead to its being spread further doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 13:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it was actually the other way around, that excising the name from this talk page would prevent it from coming up as "hits" for search engines. But like I said, I'll eat my hat if anyone outside the Little Green Footballs blogosphere thinks this is more newsworthy than what else is going on in the world. ^_^ arimareiji (talk) 14:06, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Since it appears to be an outcome that Jclemens has been pushing for--or at the very least he believes will happen--then I'd say yes, delete all references to forestall it. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 17:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, CalendarWatcher. Finding it "ironic" doesn't mean I desired that outcome. I've reverted the changes to my comments. The redaction here is pointless censorship, since the deletion review will list both the redirects and their targets anyways. Again, I'm specifically objecting to other editors refactoring my comments. If anyone wants to put in a request for oversight here, great, but as has been pointed out above "Saint Pancake" is regularly brought up on Talk:Rachel Corrie, so it would be rather pointlesss. Jclemens (talk) 01:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

As I did not use--and can't imagine ever using--'ironic' in whatever debased sense you're implying, I fail to see why you bring it up. I will say that I believe that yes, you do want to spread this mocking insult to a dead person used by fanatics, and given that Google relies upon linking in building up its rankings, using the phrase and inter-connecting it among different pages as much as possible increases attention to it, and that that outcome of using Misplaced Pages to promote it is what you would like. Clear enough? --CalendarWatcher (talk) 06:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, no, I meant that I found it ironic. You may feel free to assume bad faith all you want, but the simple fact remains that the only reason this is on the NPOV noticeboard, ANI, and now DRV is that those who've been advocating for the redirect's permanent deletion have gone forum shopping, twice, and insisted on DRV rather than taking it straight to RfD where a contested G10 should have gone initially. A proper application of process would have minimized such exposure. Jclemens (talk) 00:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Please note that WP:TALK#Others' comments provides for such removal only in cases of libel. Unless anyone is asserting libel, refactoring another editor's comments is contrary to accepted conventions of Misplaced Pages behavior. Please follow such conventions and continue to assume good faith, especially on politically sensitive topics like this one. Jclemens (talk) 02:41, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Not 100% true - WP:BLP allows refactoring/removal from any part of the encylcopedia, although it does not apply in this case. Exxolon (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The bit about 'libel' is pure wikilawyering: I would have thought simple human decency would have sufficed, but apparently not. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 06:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Your comment seems to overlook folks who disagree with Corrie's political stances--simply Google for evidence thereof--and unnecesarily imply that those who believe such disparagement should be accurately reflected in an NPOV encyclopedia somehow lack human decency. I'll note that while a motive has been ascribed to me several times by others, no one has bothered to ask me why I think the redirect has merit. Jclemens (talk) 00:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of folks who disagree with Corrie's political stances, in fact I'd wager the large majority of them, would also find that "humorous" nickname reprehensible. You're both overgeneralizing. If you have a good reason the redirect should be kept but haven't volunteered it because you want someone to ask, I think that's silly. But I also think that my editing of my own comments (adding spaces) was silly, and I think editing others' comments is completely undue. If this gets blown up into an RS news article because we didn't edit Jclemens' comments, I will personally drive to Olympia to apologize at her graveside. If I can find it. arimareiji (talk) 12:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/Marcus2

• Marcus2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I need admin eyes on this, because this has gone on long enough. User:Marcus2 has a serious issue with both WP:CIV and WP:NPA. I placed a non-templated message to the user warning him of his behaviour, to which he responded with seeming understanding. But apparently he doesn't get it. He does contribute with some level of value, but his negative behavior, to me, far outweighs any positive contributions. Please, to the admins, review the contribs with some level of depth, and don't just whitewash the issue; there are too many diffs for me to list here. At least one other user besides myself has tried to communicate, so now I would like an admin to attempt communication. Yngvarr (t) (c) 13:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

As the other editor who has attempted to inform Marcus2 of these issues, most of it stems usually from his own POV-pushing methods where anyone who disagrees with his take on things is insulted in edit summaries and on talkpages. This isn't anything new but after several years of the same issues coming up time and again and being reminded of the policies he breaks in regards to his editing methods there's got to be a point where it becomes apparent Marcus2 cannot conduct himself on Misplaced Pages, that point was passed for me in early 2007. treelo _radda 14:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

More diffs of the uncivil behavior would help - the one that I followed showed that he was being uncivil, but the argument could be made from the immediately-preceding edit that he was being baited: "You don't act the fool in music articles, why is it that animation articles are fair game to go and be a dick? I'm going to be watching you and I reckon that I could actually get you topicbanned so cut the shitslinging in your edit summaries and talkpage contribs towards other editors who do not agree with you."

Please note that I'm not saying that I know enough context of the situation to assert anything more than a passing impression. I'm suggesting that you provide more diffs because if it's a nasty ongoing pattern, diffs will be easy to find. Without them, I doubt you'll get a serious hearing. arimareiji (talk) 15:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I have to say I looked on the links out of curiosity, and I have roughly the same impression. Frankly, I'd remove such battering on my talk page myself from people constantly attacking and bating me if I were in his shoes. Being a little hotheaded, especially when provoked, is not such an unexpected thing (nor does it prove "making harm", because I'm not sure he's the one starting it), and I myself experienced such situations, with diverse results. --Anime Addict AA (talk) 15:45, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Among the 50 or so recent edits made by the user, most seem to be useful to Misplaced Pages, from removing useless information, to reverting vandalisms and such. My 2 cents as long as I'm around here. --Anime Addict AA (talk) 15:45, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

These are from edit summaries:

1. calling good-faith nonsense
2. POV, who says "the network has gone downhill"?
3. fairly strong tone for an edit summary?
4. idiot?
5. is that an acceptable edit summary?
6. this one, too?

These are from talk pages:

1. is that appropriate?
2. or this?
3. does a disagreement rate this kind of behavior?

Yngvarr (t) (c) 16:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

As it is ongoing and not just something recent, here's a few more from in the past regarding personal attacks either not specifically directed or towards other specific editors and POV pushing . For his extreme NPOV standpoint and attacking other editors, see this talkpage dicussion. treelo _radda 17:03, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Two of you guys (Treelo and Yngvarr) seem like worrywarts, because you don't seem to see the forest for the trees. Basically, I am trying to make Misplaced Pages more accurate and less based on things like fan fiction and cruft. For that, I agree with Anime Addict AA. Marcus2 (talk) 14:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like to me you're figuring as long as you're making something more accurate then gross incivility is alright by you. We just want to see what others have to say and preferably from more level heads than Anime Addict AA. treelo _radda 14:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• While I take no position as to anything else brought up here, the edit summary which is described above as "calling good-faith nonsense" involved reverting vandalism in which another person had added Mitt Romney as a producer of Who Let the Dogs Out (album). I don't see how such an addition could have been made in good faith; Romney is a politician and former organizer of the 2002 Winter Olympics, not a music producer or musician. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 21:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I have reported Grawp to my police department

This is because he is creating usernames with people's phone numbers in it see http://meta.wikimedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&offset=20090123234010&limit=500&type=globalauth and oversight-l has refused to delete them. This is not a legal threat, because I have already reported them. 78.145.227.16 (talk) 22:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Oversight can't kill usernames. You need to contact a bureaucrat thru IRC or email or other private means; the rename will remove the issues. -Jeremy 05:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Go for it mate, good luck--Jac16888 23:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• Ha! Since the information about me, for example, is available on my website, they may decide not to throw away the key on this one. Guy (Help!) 23:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Surely there's a few other things we could pick him up on? Defamation? Disrupting the work of a charity? Disobeying the explicit wishes of the owners and community of a privately-owned website in matters concerning them? I'm not sure how many of those are offences, but there's plenty of other things we could clock him for. We've put up with this for too long. Dendodge Talk 23:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I'm sure racism's a crime, and he must have said something racist (or at least anti-semitic) at least once. Dendodge Talk 23:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Racism isn't truly a crime, per se (IANAL). However, the harassment of volunteers via proxy would be. -Jeremy 02:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• You can't really win against Anonymous. It's a hydra. Grawp is more of a concept or a legend than a real person. Reporting to the police is really wasting time. Sceptre 23:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• That may be, but JarlaxleArtemis, the original Grawp, can be prosecuted or sued. Frag, his RL name bounces about quite often. -Jeremy 02:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• Oh good grief, what a load of bollocks! The police really have better things to do than process frivolous complaints. RMHED (talk) 23:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

It's somewhat late where I am, but how about a little WP:AGF? We know a local police dept won't be interested, but that's no reason to insult the reporter, unless we want to assume the worst, which I don't see. --Rodhullandemu 23:43, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The police? An answer, but not the right answer. The right answer could be knowing somebody who knows somebody who knows a guy named Vito. Baseball Bugs 00:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You never know... If you get a fortuitous combination of a state with a strong and untested anti-cyber-bullying law with a bored and/or fame-seeking prosecutor, you may get something going. Maybe we could see a Indiana v. Trolls article sometime soon. caknuck _° resolves to be more caknuck-y 19:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL — Kevin586 (talk) 03:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

@Sceptre: Hmm, yeah, but how come the cops who did Operation Buccaneer against warez groups pinned down an otherwise anonymous group of pirates? If the low lifes behind the Grawp mob are seen committing breach of privacy, then it might qualify as a criminal act, and we might have a good reason to put this Grawp menace to oblivion. Anonymous and/or ED sees Misplaced Pages as their nemesis, but what they're doing to us is obviously below the belt, right? Oh, and I suggest that you bring this to the FBI instead of the local police department. The Feds are more adept when it comes to cybercrime, I guess... Blake Gripling (talk) 03:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That isn't going to stop anything though, and you're deluded if you think it will. Too many copycats now. Sceptre 13:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. All it's going to do is delay it at best. -Jeremy 21:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Minor edits

Please can someone speak to this user please: Raoulduke47 (talk · contribs)

He is marking all his edits as minor, I believe in an attempt to avoid them being seen on watchlists. I asked him to stop here and he replied on my talk page with a comment to the effect of "haven't you got something better to do". Ryan4314 (talk) 23:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• You mean he wouldn't comply with your request!!! Outrageous, ban him this instant. RMHED (talk) 23:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:Minor says; "The distinction between major and minor edits is significant because editors may choose to ignore minor edits when reviewing recent changes; logged-in users might even set their preferences to not display them. If there is any chance that another editor might dispute a change, it is best to not mark the edit as minor."

It then goes on to list to what is acceptable to mark as minor edit. His response states that he considers edits such as "adding pictures to FA class articles" as "minor", WP:Minor says otherwise and I worry that he will continue to do this. Ryan4314 (talk) 23:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

If this really causes you "worry" then I urge you strongly not to watch any news broadcasts as they are likely to do irreparable damage to your mental wellbeing. RMHED (talk) 23:59, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

RHMED, if you don't have anything constructive to contribute please don't comment. Minor edits are exactly that - edits such as spelling mistakes, typos, whitespace removal etc - anything that substantially changes the article is not minor and should not be marked as such. Exxolon (talk) 00:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

This whole complaint is frivolous. At most this user is sometimes going against a guideline. If their edits were bad then it would be a problem, as it is their edits seem to be good so why the fuss? RMHED (talk) 00:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

if m:Help:Minor Edit didn't exist, then you might have an argument for the complaint being frivolous. but it does exist. actually, what's frivolous is the idea of an editor arbitrarily deciding it's acceptable to pick and choose which wikipedia rules to follow or deem optional. the guide isn't that ambiguous. Theserialcomma (talk) 00:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I can agree that this is not the most important issue in the history of the wiki. Still, "a 'minor edit' is defined as one making only trivial or superficial changes between the current and previous versions of a page, such as typographical corrections, formatting and presentational changes, rearranging of text without modifying content, and the like. By clicking the "minor edit" box, an editor represents that the change would not call for review by other editors on the page and could never reasonably be the subject of a dispute. An edit summary should accompany each minor edit, although this can be brief (e.g., 'sp', 'punct', 'format'). Except for edits automatically marked as minor by automated tools, which themselves should be used only in accordance with policy, any change that affects the meaning of an article should not be designated as minor." (From a recent ArbCom decision.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:47, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou, I was not aware of that recent ArbCom decision. Would you mind notifying User:Raoulduke47 of the significance of it and WP:Minor please, as I don't think he'll take me seriously, cheers. Ryan4314 (talk) 01:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't know if it's relevant or not, but there is a check box in prefrences that when checked makes all edits minor edits. Perhaps the user has that checked, and isn't really familiar with the Help:Minor Edits read. To be honest, I really hope the next big argument in Misplaced Pages isn't going to be a huge debate over whether or not the edit itself is minor or not. There's plenty of drama to go around as it is. — Ched (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I've never understood why we have that switch in preferences - it seems that it would make it more likely that non-minor edits would be marked as minor. Has anyone undertook to eliminate it? Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 03:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree it isn't the biggest deal ever (although the severity of an issue hardly acts to predict the intensity of response), but it is a trust and presentation problem. A lot of folks (not me, for this exact reason) leave edits marked as minor and edits by bots off their watchlist, on the presumption that they would never have to check up on edits like that. Marking edits as minor is a breech of that trust--a trust that is enforced only through social convention. When people violate those conventions, the response is usually disproportionate to the apparent offense. Sure, we are just talking about a little m, but the issue really is trust and observation. Protonk (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Another problem is because Wikipedians have their own language separate from the English language. In Wikipedian, minor means who is quoted above. In English, a minor edit is one that isn't major. Some may interpret major as significant re-writing and cutting things out and adding things in. So always take into consideration what you are thinking and what the other person is thinking may not be the same.

So don't just gang up on that other user. Ipromise (talk) 04:55, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• Raoulduke47 (talk · contribs) is an experienced editor (Sept 06)
• I have shown him WP:Minor, so he now knows what edits should only be marked minor and why it is bad to mark all edits as minor. Ryan4314 (talk) 11:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Editor creating unsourced BLPs, and tagging them as such

I've come across an odd situation; an editor is creating unsourced articles about various footballers, and tagging them as unsourced. See, for example, . I've asked him why he is doing this, but have received no response. I have no idea if the details given about these individuals is correct, or if they even exist, but I thought I'd bring the issue here for discussion. Jayjg 02:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

What I do is do a Google search, and if I find nothing to establish notability, I usually speedy tag it A7. ArcAngel (talk) 02:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

After having thought about it, I think the correct course of action is to re-direct them to the pro league they play in, as there are few Ghits for each of them. ArcAngel (talk) 03:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Usually when I see that it's usually a recreation of a previously deleted article complete with the old tags, sometimes even DB and hangon tags. These articles have nothing in the deletion logs so it might be the creator is hoping new page patrollers will see the tags, assume the article has already been checked and move on. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 06:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• It may even be more mundane that that. People may just be pulling out the history an old article (from one of the many mirrors and forks) and copy-pasting from there. Protonk (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Before getting any wild ideas you should check and notice that none of these pages have existed before or been deleted. So why is somebody creating new articles with the "unreferenced" tag? I guess it spares you the work of adding the tag, but why not cite the sources and spare everyone the work? I mean unless the user is unabashedly making up names, they have to be using some kind of source (though I'll admit I can't find it). — CharlotteWebb 21:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I found this as at least a reference for Arian Jean Akassou (Which was the only one of the above diffs I sampled). Somebody with more knowledge of international football might be able to make something of it. Maybe he has a source which we would not class as WP:RS but he is absolutely sure and wants us to find the sources to match. Agathoclea (talk) 01:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Minor revealing too much information?

Is This user, a minor, revealing too much information on his Talk page? AnyPerson (talk) 02:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I would say so. Isn't there a policy against e-mail addresses being posted? ArcAngel (talk) 03:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I deleted their userpage per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Protecting children's privacy, and left them a message pursuant to the Arbitration case. Tiptoety 03:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

... there is a policy against e-mail addresses being posted? Um, wtf? -- Gurch (talk) 01:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Possible Wage Slavery sockpuppetry

On Wage Slavery, there appears to be something amiss. Multiple experienced editors are reverting a rather large chunk of text being added by two apparent SPAs (NeutralityForever (talk · contribs) and MethodstoMadness (talk · contribs)) and a whole host of IPs, all of whom have no other substantial edits other than to this article. The IPs seem to be being used to lure the other editors into edit wars and then turn them in ( and in hopes of getting them blocked. I'm bringing this here in hopes an admin can straighten this out, or at least level the playing field. Thanks in advance. Dayewalker (talk) 03:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• NeutralityForever (talk · contribs) is currently blocked for edit warring. Protonk (talk) 03:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I am sure there's a way to check this out with special software. I have no relation whatsoever to NeutralityForever or any of the other contributors. I've been following the wage slavery page closely for a long time. The large chunk of text is not "being added". A few editors decided to REMOVE that chunk of text that had been there for quite a long time. So I and other editors keep insisting that the burden of proof is on those wanting to remove such large chunks of text. It seems a consensus that it is legitimate to delete those sections IF they are not relevant to the definition of wage slavery and important facts associated with it that the VERY editors proposing the deletion have chosen to have in the lead paragraph. I think you'll find out if you examine the definition, that the the parts are very relevant. In any case, the parts should be analyzed and discussed in the discussion page before any such drastic changes. thanks for your attention MethodstoMadness (talk) 03:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

MethodstoMadness has reinstated the section here . He also discusses his edits in terms of "our side." Dayewalker (talk) 04:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That account has been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of NeutralityForever. Protonk (talk) 04:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

He's asking for an unblock. -Jeremy 05:19, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Unblock declined. Mr.Z-man 06:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Due to the evident sockpuppetry by IPs, I have semiprotected Wage slavery for one month. Other admins may adjust this as they think appropriate. EdJohnston (talk) 06:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

If it's sockpuppetry on NeutFor's behalf, shouldn't his block be at the least extended? -Jeremy 03:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Tiptoety has granted him another 31 hours of time off. I've blocked Entresasix (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for a week as a sock of NeutralityForever, whose block he is now evading. EdJohnston (talk) 06:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Intermittent Personal Attacks

User:Btzkillerv appears to make personal attacks intermittently, getting away with them each time.

The following recent diffs illustrate what this editor has been up to.

As can be seen from the above diffs, this editor has made a number of personal attacks against other editors who have violated Misplaced Pages policy. In the latest and most serious incident so far, User:Btzkillerv viciously abuses an indefinitely blocked editor after a series of vandal edits were made by various user accounts to User talk:Btzkillerv, User:Btzkillerv and Template:User_Manchu_Chinese.

It also seems odd that Btzkillerv labeled User 77.182.67.105 a Hanjian(i.e. a traitor), considering that the vandal edits concerned (by other users) all involved denigrating people of the Manchu ethnicity only.

The question now is "What sort of remedies and sanctions should be applied to stop this type of conduct?" Does the editor involved simply get blocked for a period of time? Or will the editor be banned from editing certain pages? 72.43.122.208 (talk) 12:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh there's good timing. ^One more Tor node blocked. I'd just point out that I've blocked several other Tor nodes as well as some sockpuppets (User:Manchurianisation, User:Manchurianization, User:Anti Manchu Lobby, ...) who have been racially harassing Btzkillerv recently, and I've semi-protected Btzkillerv's user and usertalk pages as a result. Probably nothing to see here. -- zzuuzz 12:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh wait, User:Btzkillerv has also abused indefed user Manchurianisation by calling him or her a "traitor". 85.31.186.211 (talk) 00:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

User talk:84.9.144.107

A person on 84.9.144.107 has repeatedly posted harrassment and other personal attacks on their talk page User talk:84.9.144.107 despite being temporarily blocked. They should be permanently blocked.Smallman12q (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• We don't block IPs permanently except in very unusual cases. However, I have extended the block and semi-protected the talkpage for the same amount of time. Black Kite 14:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

User_talk:124.124.44.194

A user on 124.124.44.194 has repeatedly vandalised pages despite being warned. WarrenA (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:AIV. MuZemike 16:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Banned user

User:TomPhan is evading his banning through the use of sockpuppets (User:TonPham)...again. Normally, I'd go to the WP:SSP board, but this kind of abuse really requires a more expedient approach. This time, he is taunting me over a fellow Wikipedian's death. This is in extremely bad taste and I request help with another block as soon as it can be done. — BQZip01 —  18:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

On a related topic, could I have my talk page semi-protected to prevent the same kind of abuse for the near future? — BQZip01 —  18:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Blocked and sprotected -- Samir 19:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

User claiming he hacked another persons account.

The user is User:Curse_of_Fenric on Wikipedia_talk:Username_policy#Imposter account claims to have hacked User:Timelord69. How should this be reported if at all?Smallman12q (talk) 18:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative, not punitive. This appears to have been in good faith, a severe slap on the wrist is needed, but not a block, in my opinion. — neuro 19:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

he didn't hack anything. They signed up with an email address of his domain. He was sent the activation email.--Crossmr (talk) 00:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe what he means is 'gained access to the other user's account through questionable methods'. — neuro 01:12, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes that it was I mean. You are correct that he didn't technically hack the account since he was sent the activation email, but I don't believe it was appropriate for him to take control of the account. Is there a policy regarding taking control of an account when you have the activation email?Smallman12q (talk) 01:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

No, because it is an incredibly unusual situation, one which falls more within the realms of human judgment than policy and guideline. — neuro 02:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

What questionable methods? He was sent the activation e-mail. If this user genuinely uses this nickname in other venues and the email activation was sent to an address associated with his domain it is quite likely someone was setting up the account to target him. I see no problem with him changing the password and taking control of it, but if he doesn't get it blocked it should be identified as associated with his main account.--Crossmr (talk) 02:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Richard Spalding vanity edits

User:R_spald01 has been editing himself into the List of Rollins College alumni for months. Lately his aggressiveness in this matter has increased . I don't think he's a vandal, I think he's just mistaken about WP:NOTE. I told him on his talk page to provide source if he feels he is notable but he's just reverting.Yeago (talk) 19:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The editor has now been warned by several people. EdJohnston (talk) 06:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Deleted BLP violations being restored by Landon1980

Scjessey removed blatant WP:BLP-violating troll comments here from Talk:Barack Obama, and warned the IP user appropriately. Landon1980, on what basis I have no idea, has decided to restore the material 4 times, , , , . Posting here as this will likely need admin intervention to bring the disruption to a halt, as this user is not even slowing down for WP:3RR. Tarc (talk) 20:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I have notified Landon of this thread, and asked him why he chose to edit war over this as well. Tarc, it is common courtesy to notify users when you open a AN or ANI thread about them. GlassCobra 20:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Er, I did. :) Landon deleted it. Tarc (talk) 20:19, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Tarc did notify me, I reverted his comment. Landon1980 (talk) 20:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

After all the rude comments from Tarc in the past I have a hard time assuming good faith when dealing with him. I know for a fact he reverted me in pure spite of me. He has called me insane in the past, and edit-warred with an admin to keep his personal attack on the talk page of this same article. Landon1980 (talk) 20:24, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Nice bit of, um, ad hominem hysteria there. We already dealt with the spurious "insane" thing last year, discussion of which is probably still on my talk page, as I archive infrequently. As for "spite", no, I reverted you because you were restoring a nothing-to-do-with-the-article anti-Obama slur, which ran afoul of WP:BLP, as well as your removal the warning issued to the IP. Tarc (talk) 20:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, Tarc, I should have checked the page history. Landon, why were you edit warring over a trivial and borderline offensive comment? Assuming bad faith against Tarc aside, that's no reason for breaking 3RR, especially when an admin was the first to remove the comment. GlassCobra 20:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

At least four editors have reverted the comment. Landon1980 made an identical claim about me, that I did so to "spite" him, and is engaged in a discussion on my talk page suggesting that he seems to regard the whole thing as a battle against a cabal of Obama apologists. I have no opinion on whether the editor should be warned or blocked again. He says here that he is not going to revert anymore. The whole thing is unnecessary if everyone just calms down and moves on.Wikidemon (talk) 20:41, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Large family is not a living person, and calling a person charged with drug possession a criminal (in which Obama barely knows) is not a BLP violation. Try assuming good faith from time to time. Landon1980 (talk) 20:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Landon, please hold to your statement on Wikidemon's talk to cease edit warring over this comment. I'm marking this thread as resolved since no admin intervention is required now, and will continue this conversation on your talk page. GlassCobra 20:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

It appears that Eugene Krabs (talk · contribs) has taken up the edit war and is dropping vandalism warnings on the talk pages of editors that have removed the comment. --Bobblehead 21:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

And it looks like an admin or somebody should decide whether stuff about Obama's relative in Africa constitutes a BLP violation. The original posting by the IP address was certainly a POV-push. Baseball Bugs 21:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

There's already a discussion open on WP:BLP/N. It's a legitimate and in my opinion unclear question whether repeating the (apparently true) reports of this person's arrest in his home country are a BLP violation in the first place, or are inappropriate on other policy grounds (weight, POV, notability, coatrack, NOT#NEWS). We also have no idea what the story really means and what will come of it. What is clear is that it can become a behavioral or content problem if taken too far, too fast, or too enthusiastically. This is yesterday's front page news (now a day stale, and no longer on the front pages). For anyone who is truly here to edit an encyclopedia, we can afford to take a breath, wait a week, then see what if anything comes of it.Wikidemon (talk) 21:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, assuming good faith it appears that Eugene Krabs, is just trying to help but new to Misplaced Pages and a little slow on the draw... He/she has been doing non-partisan wikipolicing elsewhere on the subject of urging people not to modify talk page comments. If it's truly a BLP issue, the comment about Obama's brother would be a rare exception to that rule. I'll be bold and mark this resolved again, in hopes that everyone gets it by now...Wikidemon (talk) 21:29, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

If it is of any relevance here, my problem with the "Obama's family..." line is that it a) presumes the guilt of someone who has only been charged with a crime, and b) defames the Obama family by implying that there's bound to be criminals in there somewhere, since there's so many of em. One could even draw a racial undertone from the latter. Tarc (talk) 21:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Exactly the reasons I removed it in the first place. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The latter was not part of the comment. There is no "racial undertone" in the comment of the IP. Before you tamper with the comments of other editor's you should have a good reason. Also, read WP:BLP so not to misapply the policy in the future. You have to try extremely hard to interpret that comment as an insult to the Obama's. Landon1980 (talk) 04:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This matter is done, but I hope nobody takes from this discussion the notion that it is okay to edit war to restore unproductive comments to talk pages after they have been removed on BLP grounds.Wikidemon (talk) 08:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what grounds they were removed on, that comment was not a BLP violation and you know that. Large family is not a person, and George Obama being charged with drug possession can be reliably-sourced. So which part of BLP does the comment violate exactly? The comments insulted the human race and nothing else. It suggested in such a large group of people it was no surprise one was a criminal. Is the human race now being treated as one big "living person." You need to read WP:BLP then tell me which clause the comment violates. Landon1980 (talk) 15:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

With comments such as these, it is best to err on the side of caution. The comment's meaning is open to interpretation, hence the ensuing discussion about it right here. I suggest we leave it at that.--Atlan (talk) 16:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we don't want "large families" running a muck on Misplaced Pages having their way with the project. I bet you are yet another person that would not remove that comment if you just stumbled onto it on a talk page. Lots of comments are open to interpretation, that is why we assume good faith. You shouldn't tamper with other editor's comments unless they actually violate a policy, the fact you could possibly twist them into a violation is not enough. The comment should have been left alone, bottom line. It was on the talk page, not the article. Calling it a BLP violation is utter nonsense. The only thing I did wrong was edit war; I should have brought it here instead.Landon1980 (talk) 16:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It was a BLP violation to call George Obama a "criminal" based on the news of the day reporting that he had been arrested on allegations of marijuana possession. According to BLP one should not write, and editors are right to remove on the spot, poorly sourced information that tend to disparage living people. There is no source for George Obama being a criminal. That is a claim of fact not supported by any reliable sources, which (incorrectly, it turns out) say only that he was arrested on allegations of that petty crime. It does not matter if you could interpret it to be a comment about the human race. Others read it as name-calling against the President's half brother. BLP is about the words on the page, not what the Wikipedian editor meant when he wrote them. Even if those editors were wrong -- they aren't -- it is a violation of Obama article probation to edit war with them over a matter that is not remotely likely to ever make it into the article. And even if that were not the case, it is a 3RR violation to revert them four times. None of that has anything to do with good faith. You are within your rights to bring things here next time and that is better than edit warring, but you have a serious lapse of understanding of Misplaced Pages policy and norms here. You would do well to listen to the other editors around here.Wikidemon (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

See this edit, which shows you that I have removed a talk page comment for BLP issues as recently as 5 days ago. You're assumption that "I am yet another person that would not remove that comment if I just stumbled onto it on a talk page", seems to be baseless and uninformed. Furthermore, WP:AGF does not trump WP:BLP.--Atlan (talk) 17:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought I was getting Rickrolled there! (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 18:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I sure missed that opportunity! ;-) --Atlan (talk) 18:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

(OD)True, but seeing as the comment is not a BLP violation that is irrelevant. I would have personally removed the comment had it been in the article itself. However, just because you can twist a comment into a BLP violation is not grounds to remove it. So you are telling me that if you were just reading that talk page and saw that comment you would remove it, honestly? It would have been different had there not been news reports of an alleged criminal act. Landon1980 (talk) 17:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, that's open to interpretation. It's pointless to keep insisting it is not a BLP violation, when so many others in this thread disagree. I guess you just have to agree to disagree here.--Atlan (talk) 18:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Strange behaviour of Yearlytaxforms

Yearlytaxforms (talk · contribs) keeps recreating Bryant Ng with extracts from various books. I'm not sure what to make of it.--Patton 21:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Bryant Ng most recently was a copyvio of "Our Immigrant Stories: South Asians in Illinois, 1945-1965" (,, etc.), so it could be speedily deleted for being a copyright violation, among other reasons (edit: has been deleted now). I think delete and salt is the appropriate action. As for what's going on, my guess is that Yearlytaxforms is trying to use Misplaced Pages as a personal web host. Strange227 could be unrelated. -kotra (talk) 21:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That's just one version of it, he's recreated it about 7 times with extracts from various books.--Patton 21:45, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes he just keeps doing it done about 10 tiems in last ten mins.--Patton 21:47, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Odd. Judging by this, I'd say the user's name is Bryant Ng. Maybe he's copying the book text to "his" page in preparation for writing an article. Were all the books on the same topic? If not, maybe he's just trying to be disruptive... that's the best explanation I can offer. -kotra (talk) 21:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

No they were on random things, he even copied and pasted the Einstein article into there.--Patton 22:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

*scratch head* I'd guess just disruption then, but whatever the reason, he'll be blocked if he continues. -kotra (talk) 22:12, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

202.84.20.21

• 202.84.20.21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) all entries, despite many warnings, have been vandalism, and limited blocks have not helped.Ethelh (talk) 21:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

This report was originally placed at WP:AIV, where I noted that the last edits were 2 days ago. Is there any other response other than RBI for this vandal? The contrib history is little more than vandalism, but is there more than the expected Philippine orientated article editing that indicates that this is the one individual? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I say give him a chance, don't block untill he vandalises again.--Patton 23:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

"All we are saying is give IP's a chance..." Baseball Bugs 01:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Flags

Request for Admin help please: Aidan Jennings (talk · contribs) has added those little flags icons to a load of ship articles. He's added them to the ship builder section of the infobox, two questions:

• Is this inline with WP:MOSFLAG?
• If not, damned if I'm reverting all of them ;) Is there some magic tool admins have to easily fix all of these please? Ryan4314 (talk) 23:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Seems harmless. I can see the editorial argument that flags in ship infoboxes should represent only the flag she flies under. But that's something to take up with him or her. Protonk (talk) 23:24, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Roger, you can close this if u like now. Ryan4314 (talk) 23:28, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Ah, we can keep it open. For all I know there is some super secret collection of editors who want flags just so and will be incensed when they see this. Maybe it is a problem. I was just giving my read. Protonk (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It's being discussed here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ships#Flag icons for builders. Ryan4314 (talk) 00:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Spies sappin my sentries

We need an admin to end this utter madness. A user is hurling insane accusations at half of Misplaced Pages, with little to no supporting evidence. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. BJ 00:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. _shoot! 00:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Yea, thanks for ending that. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And a few admins have scolded him already. Honestly, the fact that he apparently doesn't know where the IP editors come from kinda surprises me, but I gave him some info and asked him to avoid two other hotspot talkpages. I often enlist anon allies to help revert vandalism on my talkpage during a 4chan attack; I don't want them being called socks of anyone. -Jeremy 00:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

"And a few admins have scolded him already"... and non-admins, as well! Anyway, I gave him links to RBI and some other stuff, hopefully he will learn quickly. I do understand the desire of a new user to burn every IP address they ever see vandalizing (when I first started I used to keep a list of all IPs I had reverted), but eventually we all learn to RBI... Politizer /_contribs 00:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

My apologies guys and thanks a lot for the links politzer. I will certainly refere to them in the future!Smallman12q (talk) 01:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

User_talk:Interveinious,_intertwined

User:Interveinious,_intertwined is editing his talk page with a bulky (1 MB) formatting filled with profanities and swearing which are clearly inadequate abuse of wikipedia resources. Please take proper action (adding a notice to his talk page in current situation looks unfeasible, given the disruptive nature of the current formatting). Fbergo (talk) 03:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Mucoid plaque

As per Talk:Mucoid_plaque#Pseudoscience_discretionary_sanctions and the general consensus of the editors of this article, could I ask another admin to step in and restrict User:Heelop from disrupting this article and its talkpage? Tim Vickers (talk) 04:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Mickproper

(I posted the text below to WP:Wikiquette alerts earlier today, and was told I should post here instead.)

After I AFDed one of his articles and reverted some of his edits, Mickproper seriously lost it and posted this to my talk page and sent me a personal threat in email, which I took seriously enough to report to my local police. ("just so you know you punk...when I find out your real identity, you're going to have a VERY bad day!") I don't wish to be involved with this guy anymore. Someone should keep an eye on him, though - I think he is well-intentioned, but his edits are frequently unsourced, unverifiable, and/or contain original research. And he has a temper. Brianyoumans (talk) 04:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeowch. I think this guy needs an indef but fast, sans email privs. Well-intentioned he may be, but threats like that are certainly NOT okay. Blocking now. Do not reply to his email; just killfile it. -Jeremy 04:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

1) Kill his account

2) Bury the corpse

3) ??

4) Profit! HalfShadow 04:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And blocked. I welcome other administrators to comment on the block on the chance I've cocked up. -Jeremy 04:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You cocked up. HalfShadow 04:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And I corrected it. (Hits self in face with shark). Correct account blocked now. -Jeremy 04:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for dealing with this ... I immediately recommended the WQA be brought here instead ... I would have brought it here myself, but I've been a tad busy lately. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 14:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Vandal SPA?

Something of note, that popped up on the radar at Super Bowl XLIII:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Newenglandsports11

Tends to be a WP:SPA editor that makes edits like the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Santonio_Holmes&diff=prev&oldid=267963380 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2008_New_York_Giants_season&diff=prev&oldid=263454544

Probably needs a look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.100.146 (talk) 04:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• May want to try WP:AIV in the future. Likely to get a faster response. Most of the edits seem fine, though those two are troublesome. Protonk (talk) 05:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Overly hostile editor at the DYK talk page

User:Politizer has been overly hostile to people who do not agree with him for over two months at the Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know page. Recently, he posted a response saying this in the edit summary: "clarification about yet another Ottava Rima factual inaccuracy. come on, man, learn your shit already". I asked him not to put personal attacks in edit summaries because he has a habit of it. He responds with "don't want personal attacks in the edit summary? fine, I put it in the edit itself" in the edit summary and this in the edit: 1) "Hey genius" 2) "Once again I am in awe of how poor your understanding of DYK is. Non-admins can update Next, and they do all the time. You fucking moron." 3) "this is how you repay me—by whining about the same old bullshit and being too thick-skulled to read or understand anything I say.".

The user has attacked others besides myself, but it is harder to dig through the archives (I can easily find my name and match the conversations). For instance, there was this where he was warned about his hostility by User:NuclearWarfare. This original diff shows his use of edit summaries to further hostilities ("haha, that's just precious..... oh well. gonna try to avoid this thread now"). As you can see here (" hi asshole :-D") I am not the only one who he does this to. Upon looking at edit summaries, he does it frequently such as here. As a side note, he also has a strange habit of issuing "final warnings" as a non-admin (examples): 1 and 2. (these were found on the same pages as diffs related to the user's actions above). Ottava Rima (talk) 04:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC) Ottava Rima (talk) 04:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to respond to the other comments right now because I'm in a hurry and other people will be better able to piece through them in an NPOV fashion. As for the final warnings, I issued those two because the users were VOAs who inserted libel into BLPs (for the one) and attacks against living individuals (for the second). But that's really irrelevant to this thread. Politizer /_contribs 04:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Any user can issue any warning. Final warnings aren't limited to an admin. Grsz--Review 04:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Using "bitch" in one of the edit summaries as you can see above shows that there is a problem with how the user handles vandals. I removed the last two, but the above is enough to show a concern. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Not really much for me to say here, other than I urge people reading to read the entirety of the most recent discussion (the bottom portion of WT:DYK#Closer look, starting from "I would really like to know who promoted it.") rather than only the diffs that Ottava Rima provided. Politizer /_contribs 04:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And another response...regarding Ottava Rima's "I'm not the only one he does this to" diff, that edit was in response to one of Ottava Rima's buddy editors, who had already attacked me just a few edits before that (in that diff, scroll up in the conversation to Malleus' comment "More experience than you of counting?" If you're unfamiliar with DYK and me, this comment was mocking me for having once challenged one of Ottava Rima's DYK nominations for not being expanded fivefold.) This ANI thread would mean a lot more to me if it were something other than just Ottava Rima and his friend wanting to tattle on a guy they don't like. Politizer /_contribs 05:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why User:Politizer has no warnings for these type of comments in his/her recent edit history. Looks like there should be a warning for being chatty around the holidays (Misplaced Pages is not your personal chat room or some such), but it seems that an editor who is this hostile would have lots of warnings for personal attacks given on their talk page. I'm not going to be reading the entire conversation because no one felt the comments by this editor were serious enough when they were made to warn him/her from making them. --KP Botany (talk) 05:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure, which comments are you questioning if they are hostile? The one set (the old set) were deemed hostile by Nuclear Warfare who mentions that. The recent set says "You fucking moron" and "this is how you repay me—by whining about the same old bullshit and being too thick-skulled to read or understand anything I say" which seems blatantly hostile. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not questioning if any comments are hostile. What I am questioning is whether or not you considered the comments blatantly hostile at the time they were issued or continued to engage him at the same level, and, if the latter, why there is an AN/I discussion about an editor who has no user talk page warnings.

It's hard as an outsider to see what is going on. Your comment about his edit summary, in the first diff you list, is an aside, and an order to him, not a request. Obviously your telling him not to do an admin-only task that apparently was not an admin only task was more important than the command to stop being hostile. If his behaviour was so bad, it should have merited a direct civility warning, rather than an aside to the more pressing issue of his editing pages he shouldn't have (which, I assumed you were wrong about, because admin only edit pages are protected). He next calls you a "fucking moron," and this does not merit a civility warning on his user page. Huh? I'm lost at what he is doing now that tops that, but, again, it did not merit a civility warning.

The exchange with Nuclear Warfare does not appear to have been escalated by Politizer. The conclusion about this exchange seems to be that Politizer was whining about something that happened in the past, not that he was being particularly hostile, and, again, it didn't merit a civility warning on his talk page. So, again, I'm just lost about what is going on here.

I checked out his talk page, going back 500 edits, and I don't see a pattern of this editor receiving civility warnings. Congratulations, barn stars, thank yous, holiday greetings, yes, but civility issues? No, I don't see it there, and I don't see that the way it has been handled according to the diffs you provided, that it's all that big of a deal right now.

Please reread my post where I don't say anything about questioning the hostility of the editor's comments. Then please reread the diffs and consider them from the angle of someone looking to see what is going on, and I think you might see that in both cases you read something that wasn't necessarily there. Potty mouth? Yes. The hostility though, if it was really an issue with this editor, probably would have gathered more comments and some serious user talk page warnings and discussion. I can't find this. --KP Botany (talk) 07:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Lack of talk page warning does not justify a user's behavior, nor does it mean that their continued disruption should not go to ANI. It is obvious that there is a discussion involving a DYK issue and he is being disruptive with his language. He has a history of being disruptive with his language. It seems that you want to justify bad behavior because of a previous lack of oversight. Why would you do something like that, by chance? What possibly motivates you to want to bend over backwards to make it seem like someone has the right to act in this way? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec)I don't see anything that requires any admin action. The editor hasn't even been recently warned for incivility, so there's absolutely no call for a block over this incident. This barely warrants a wikiquette alert, and only because both sides of that argument need to take it down a notch.

And on the point being bickered over: if there's a page in the DYK project that only admin are allowed to edit, why isn't it protected? -- Vary Talk 05:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

reply to Vary Because it's not a page that only admins can edit. The pages that only admins can edit (Template:Did you know and the queues) are protected; as I mentioned in the conversation that sparked this ANI, the DYK rules clearly state that non-admins can edit Next, and in fact most of the editing of Next is done by them. Just for some clarification. Politizer /_contribs 05:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

There was. It was the DYK queue. Then that was moved onto the Template talk page and was no longer protected as before. The protection was lost for whatever reason. Only admin are allowed to edit the main page and this loophole allows for a contradiction against a greater consensus. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Only admins do edit the main page. Nothing moves from Template:Did you know/Next update to Template:Did you know except through an admin; the admins generally review the stuff at Next before they move it to the queues and the template. So that's how it goes: anyone can move hooks from the DYK suggestions page to Next, and then only admins can move them from Next to the template. Politizer /_contribs 05:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I find it odd how Vary seems to apologize for the user's edits that were made just recently because he wasn't warned over them. He was asked by me not to continue. He was asked by NuclearWarfare not to be so hostile. So even then, there were two warnings. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

If I may, I'd like to interject something here, as a disinterested third set of eyes on this. Ottava Rima, he wasn't exactly asked by you not to continue, he was told. (See again the DIFF that you yourself quoted above. Granted, the response was a bit on the hostile side, and Politizer should not let things escalate to this point. IMHO, what I think needs to happen here is a warning for Politizer to try adhering to WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF a bit more, and refrain from letting things like this get the Wiki stress level up. Like your userpage says Politizer, think happy thoughts. When you feel like you're going to type something that you know is going to fly in the face of civility guidelines, back off from the keyboard a minute, breathe, and take a moment to compose your thoughts in a more productive fashion. Here are a few suggestions:

• Turn negative statements into neutral or positive statements.
• Try disagreeing agreeably.
• Never start a sentence with "You", always start with "I" or "We". You tends to sound attacking, where I or we is more neutral. Try, instead of "You're wrong to feel that way!", "I regret that you feel like that." It puts you in the position of taking the moral and conversational high-ground.
• Try nodding your head when you type your response, soon you'll be looking for more affirmative statements to type than negatives!

All of these can be applied by not only the editors involved in this dispute, but also all others that are reading this. Edit Centric (talk) 05:28, 2 February 2009 (

(outdent edit conflict) To provide some context, Mid-December Ottava and Politizer had a argument regarding the use of block quotes in size calculations. Thread 1, Thread 2. Both Ottava and Politizer have had their altercations, but nothing that, at this stage, deserves admin attention. Edit Centric is spot on. » \ / (⁂) 05:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• A few more - 1 ("I'd rather not go back to dealing with that imbecile at wt:dyk") and 2 (taunting). Ottava Rima (talk) 06:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

If he has in fact been advised by uninvolved editors that his conduct of late is out of line, then take it to wikiquette if you must. Taking something like this straight to AN/I (do not pass go!), especially when there is no urgent admin intervention required, just increases drama. I'll say again, though, that both sides of that discussion needed to disengage: you'd both be better off dropping the issue, taking the advice above and using it to avoid escalating any future conflicts you might have. -- Vary Talk 06:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments like this at the DYK talk page are a disruption to a process. Wikiquette does not deal with that. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Ottava, these are moot at this point, we get it. There's been disagreements. Again, a warning for Politizer to be better about adhering to WP:CIVIL, and quite possibly a nudge for Ottava Rima, try my suggestions above. I looked a bit at the two threads cited by \/ (reminiscent of OJ Simpson? Sorry, just HAD to!), and it looks to me like Ottava is fighting an uphill battle on consensus issues. Ottava, those suggestions might work in the context of these discussions as well, instead of the apparent finger-pointing and recriminations that I'm seeing. (Instead of the "you're wrong" conversation track, try "Hmm. You know, you might be right there, however the way I'm reading this guideline, and I could be wrong about this, but...") Try that. Edit Centric (talk) 06:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Disagreement? No. There are attacks. Why would you attempt to soften his actions with such coded language? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of content disagreements, Politizer has crossed the line several times. I'm going to give him a warning and ask him to act more in line with our behavior expectations here. RxS (talk) 17:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Cactushead

Cactushead (talk · contribs), a user that I've been stopping from using his/her talk page for disruption has made a potential legal threat against me . His/her actions also indicate a vandalism-only account (see contributions). Previously, he demanded that I leave his "profile" alone and I told him that I'll not leave it alone . Before that I warned him not to revert my reverts to his talk page . Can an admin take a look as to whether or not this is actually a legal threat?. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Since I'm asking as to whether or not this is a legal threat or not, I might as well report him/her as a vandal too. Cactushead has also recently vandalized a page in my user space . This shows some grudge being held. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:28, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

For goodness Sake Mythdon lighten up, there is no legal threat. I just don't appreciate you reverting edits on my own personal pages, which may be considered trespass were I to go to my lawyer Alan Shore. I am new to wikipedia and as such I am still learning the ropes. I make an undertaking to all wikipedia users that I will continue to try my best to become the best wikipedia user possible. I particularly think I can help cleaning up the Power Rangers articles, which are looking sorely delapeded.

If however the general consensus is that Misplaced Pages is not open to my types then I will happily leave Misplaced Pages without a fight. Just someone other than Mythdon let me know. Cactushead (talk) 05:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't read like a legal threat, just a dumb joke. On the other hand, many of these edits are disruptive. I'd advise you, Cactushead, to kindly cut it out. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 05:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, Cactushead. Cut out the disruptive edits. If you continue to disruptively edit, WP:AIV will hear from me and that an administrator can stop at nothing to get rid of you. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

(not an admin, just weighing in) I'd agree that it doesn't look like a serious legal threat, just a juvenile rant... but it looks like this editor has already done enough to be blocked for a long time. And even a joking legal threat is still concerning and might be worthy of some action. (What action, though, is a decision for someone with a lot more experience than me.) Politizer /_contribs 05:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Cactushead has done nothing but disrupt this project. If I were an admin, I would have blocked the user for disruption, and I do hope an admin blocks Cactushead for disruption, at least if he/she continues. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Let me be clear, I do not want this edit to be misconstrued as a disruptive edit. But I am concerned that the phrase "get rid of you" by User talk:Mythdon could potentially be a threat on my personal safety. As I am new I am unsure as to what to do about this. Should it be raised here, or should I create a separate sub-heading to check the veracity of this. Could someone provide insight on this? Cactushead (talk) 05:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

When I said "get rid of you", I meant that an admin would stop at nothing to block you. It has nothing to do with your personal safety, but your status on Misplaced Pages. That is clear by the fact that the phrase linked to WP:BLOCK. Read some of our policies and guidelines for information on contributing to this website. For instance, read WP:VANDALISM for what we are trying to get you to stop. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec)

oh come on, legal threat? totally uninvolved party here - not an admin -but really, lighten up! here's the hubbub. "Brother, the size of my penis is the question here. Maybe you should tag it as "source needed" - that is fair enough. But you should not be reverting edits about this topic. I hope you have not been conducting independent research on this issue as this would cause me to go to the police."

obviously a joke (and kinda funny, too) but i dont see what the big deal is. you cant say the word penis? even if that is so, mythdon is taking this personally and engaging in battle. why didn't he go to the admins first? anyway, lets move on from that and look at his edits. if they are disruptive, warn him and then block him if he continues. Untwirl (talk) 05:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we can say the word penis. It is not the issue that the word "penis" is being used. The issue is that he/she is potentially making legal threats against me. I ask all admins to take a look at this case. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

friend, calm down, this so-called legal threat that you are worried about is that if you are doing independent research on the size of his wanker then he will go to the police. as long as you aren't doing that, i assure you you are safe from penetration, ahem, i mean prosecution. Untwirl (talk) 06:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This dispute has already been closed. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 06:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Extensive removal of comments from Talk:Cold fusion

There have been numerous removals of comments from Talk:Cold fusion recently, plus use of strike-out (of another editor's comments) in lieu of removal. Today, User:JzG archived an active section. Because this had recently been referred to in an RfAr, I restored it. User:Tony Sidaway reverted. I then created a section briefly referring to the removal, not to reawaken discussion, but simply to point to it. It attracted some comment, then Tony removed it also, with the comment, Take this to ANI or somewhere if you care. This page is for discussing the article.

Well, Talk pages are not just for discussing the article, i.e., specific content, they are also for "the topic of how to improve the associated article, which involves process and editors. Rigidity on this can exacerbate editorial conflict. Nobody likes to be effectively told to shut up. However, I'd not have brought this here if Tony hadn't suggested it, I consider posting to AN/I about as pleasant as a tooth extraction. I did not insist on leaving that discussion in place, but because there had been reference to it, and so that the editor, if he returns -- he was new and may have had an external agenda -- would know what had happened to it, I made that small section referring to it.

And I'm leaving it at that, I'm not reverting Tony, I don't edit war, period. However, I am concerned that removal of Talk text and other restrictions on Talk seem to be frequent at Cold fusion. --Abd (talk) 06:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Without commenting on the other issues you raise, I would note that even as article talk pages exist only in order to further article development and so are to be cleared of discussion unrelated to that purpose, it is not unreasonable that one should raise on a talk page a removal or archiving from that page (even if simply to offer a link to the content removed); those who are involved in the editing of an article are, after all, best situated to adjudge whether a talk page discussion was productive or whether archiving or excision was appropriate. Tony's removal of your section, then, wasn't compelled by WP:TALK and was otherwise unhelpful. 68.248.228.88 (talk) 07:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Looked briefly at the text removed, it seems to be not so much a discussion about improving the article, but more a series of recriminations regarding other editors' perceived editing rationale(s). Not sure about the actual deletion of text from a talk page though, need some illumination on that aspect... Edit Centric (talk) 07:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

My reason for supporting (and aiding) the removal was from a similar perspective. The discussion there could take place here, or on user talk pages, or in personal conduct RFCs, or mediation or arbitration, if at all. Attempting to continue an off-topic and unproductive discussion on the talk page exacerbates the interpersonal problems on the talk page. I don't take this step lightly, it has its costs, but it seems to me that those involved are either unaware that there are more appropriate venues or they do not care. I've nudged them to use external venues (such as this one) and I think that was the right thing to do. Talk:Cold fusion has been subject to chronic abuses of Misplaced Pages is not a forum and Misplaced Pages is not a battleground (see the recent arbitration case Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion) and now it's time to get back to productive editing. --TS 09:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This is now really starting to piss me off. Over at WP:RFAR there is clear and unambiguous consensus from the arbitrators that Jed Rothwell's input is unhelpful (it is Rothwell's comments which were struck out, not by me). Abd appears to be engaging in a one-man crusade to stand up for the rights of the cold fusion kooks, which I am sure is not what he intends, but simply archiving a troll-infested thread from a talk page with a long history of trolling, POV-pushing and the like is not in any way contentious. It's not extensive removal ZOMG CENSORSHIP !!111!1!!!, it's archiving (to the current archive page linked from the talk page) threads dominated by inappropriate advocacy. What is needed on that article is for the decent editors - i.e. those who are not disruptive WP:SPAs - to be left in peace to get on with the business of restoring the balance that was destroyed by Pcarbonn, Jed Rothwell and a few others, free of their pernicious influence. What Abd is doing seems to me right now to be a concerted effort to prevent that happening, with a side order of massive dollops of bad faith. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, not a battleground, not an appropriate place to influence public opinion, not the place to "fix" real-world problems. It may well be that the scientific establishment is excessively skeptical about cold fusion but Misplaced Pages is absolutely not the place to fix that problem, and there is significant work to do in rolling back the efforts of those who have been trying to do exactly that. The last thing, absolutely the last thing, that we need right now is philosophical argumentation from the people who caused the problem, Jed Rothwell specifically and prominently included. We know what he thinks, and there is no way that a policy-compliant article could ever be acceptable to him, so we must ignore him and carry on.

I am unable to understand why it is that Abd seems so determined to have the input of Jed Rothwell (see also ). It would be really helpful to me to know why he wants this, as it is not in the least obvious to me; I see Rothwell's input as analogous to having Kent Hovind trying to edit the article on evolution - it's not that he supports the fringe POV, it's that he sees it as a war of good versus evil, with the consensus view being evil. It is impossible to have calm on a contentious topic with the input of such zealots, and we rightly topic ban those who are here to fight these external battles. It's a perfect case for WP:RBI so by archiving instead we are giving more than the usual consideration to Rothwell. We are trying to reflect what the world thinks, he thinks the world is wrong (as evidence things like his "DOE LIES" editorial on his website, which he asserts is not used for advocacy), so I'm afraid he can't help us achieve our goal. It really is that simple Guy (Help!) 11:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with JzG. These actions are proper and there is no problem, except those made by Jed and those he influences. Verbal chat 13:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the edits made by JzG. Talk page refactoring is an accepted and useful part of editting. Although I know it's a fine point. I don't like the removal of discussions about the editing, however. Dousing with petrol, as effective that is likely to be. Use compress boxes, move to a subpage, whatever, but making complaints about disappearing text disappear does actually feel like ZOMG1! censorship, and it requires a slightly lighter tough.
brenneman 13:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of unhelpful, and nonsense discussion postings from heinous single purpose editors. seicer | talk | contribs 14:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to emphasize that in removing the text, Guy also placed it in the archive page. --TS 14:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Just to note, I wasn't complaining about Guy's behavior here. Yes, he placed it in the archive. The subsequent removal (not by him) wasn't, if I'm correct, nor were some other removals. But I could be wrong, haven't checked this morning and gotta go. The matter of Talk page removal of comments is complex, and I'd not care to debate it on AN/I, I was simply following a suggestion. Maybe it was a bad suggestion! I'd agree with Brenneman, though.--Abd (talk) 14:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, the other removals (including one such by me) were of material that had no ghostly relationship to improving the cold fusion article, being just complaints about the archiving). At what point do we slavishly and painstakingly record every off-topic item written to a talk page, not only in the history of the page, but also in an archive that is intended only to aid those who genuinely want to improve the article. Speaking for myself I think copying any off-topic material into an archive is counter-productive. This website isn't a talking shop. --TS 16:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Right. So can we please just put Mr Rothwell aside and get on with the article? Guy (Help!) 17:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, not right. The notice that TS removed with his suggestion that I might go to AN/I was not a "complaint" about the archiving, it was a notice of the archiving. That's all. However, it seems that some editors may be disposed to see a simple notice as a "complaint." To me, it's symptomatic of the battles that raged over Cold fusion last year. , it is not only Pcarbonn who (allegedly) saw Misplaced Pages as a battleground. The notice I placed briefly described what had happened, it didn't accuse anyone of improper behavior, and it informed editors -- who might not understand, and I've seen admins make the error of responding to a comment in an archive -- what they could do should they wish to respond. Seemed pretty neutral to me. There was then a positive response from Olorinish, a comment from Dtobias which I considered inappropriate, Enric Naval fixed the header, I chided Dtobias, gently, to "be nice," and then TS deleted it. Above, TS points out, correctly, that JzG archived the material. He did not archive what he removed, though. These are just facts. Please don't project some imagined emotion onto them. And, JzG, this has nothing to do with Rothwell, if you want to "put Mr Rothwell aside," why do you mention him? --Abd (talk) 19:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Blocked user using Talk page as venue for continuing attacks

Is there any remedy / applicable policy for this situation?

Posturewriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is on indefinite block as a "disruptive single-purpose account", but is continuing to use his Talk page as a venue for lengthy soapboxing and personal attacks on other editors including myself , I've reverted per WP:NPA and WP:TALK, but I'm not clear if this is the correct action. Thoughts? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 09:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I reblocked them, removing the ability to edit their own talk page, but reversed myself as I think that's somewhat harsh. I have left them a warning to the effect of "request an unblock or shut up". If they continue then I'll reblock and stop them editing the talk page. _Gb 10:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I knew a formal unblock request was fine, but wasn't clear what the limits were otherwise. Is it within policy for me to remove existing personal attacks posted since the block? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 10:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

From a quick skim through (the diffs are bordering on TL, DR) I can't see any particularly egregious personal attacks..._Gb 10:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Maltese (dog)

This page has been turned into a petty edit war over what appears to be nationalistic pride. From what I can tell, two editors, Pietru_il-Boqli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and Imbris (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), disagree on the origin of the term 'Maltese' as it applies to the dog. I've warned one user regarding the NPOV stuff , and warned the other about edit-warring and that they need to seek third-party resolution.

Pietru il-Boqli then leveled a personal attack against me for getting involved.

At this point, each user is constantly reverting the other on the main article. Neither has (from what I can tell) violated 3RR, but it's become long-term, annoying edit warring, without an end in sight.

Tool2Die4 (talk) 13:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It's your user name! the roof of this court is too high to be yours (talk) 16:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It's a portion of his user name, obviously used as a pejorative in this case, and thus a personal attack. Don't do it again. (I'm not touching the nationalistic side of this argument, I have other things to do this month.) Tony Fox (arf!) 17:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Ironically "Pietru" translates to "Peter", which is an old-fashioned synonym for the same thing that "tool" is a synonym for. Hence Dick Cavett's comment that "Peter O'Toole has a double-phallic name." Baseball Bugs 17:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That's not ironic, though it is amusing. Some guy called Dick playing the phallic name game: that's irony. the roof of this court is too high to be yours (talk) 19:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Structural Integration

Could someone else have a look over the external links section? I've reverted a massive addition of links once, but the IP added it back, and I think I'd like a couple more pairs of eyes before I revert it again. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Ugh, no. Reverted all except one, which looks to be the US overlook organisation and may be acceptable. Black Kite 18:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
  • By the way, is there a more appropriate noticeboard for things like this? WP:RSN and WP:FTN seemed a bit too specific to other problems, and WP:VP a little too general. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Edward Moskal - legal action possible statement

Is this appropriate? diff I am happy to see the unsourced stuff whacked but the legal action thing is a bit spooky.sinneed (talk) 18:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not a legal threat. _Gb 19:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I would change the "a" to "an overt" ... but then the US legal system frightens me. Sorry if I am too easily spooked. I wanted people who know far more than I to get a chance to see it.sinneed (talk) 19:21, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. I think the distinction comes from saying "You could get sued" to "I am going to call my lawyer". One is a threat, one is a warning. If I tell you "Don't get close to the edge of a bridge, you might fall off", that's not a threat. I'm warning you of the danger (of gravity working). If I tell you "Come near me and I'll throw you off this bridge", that's a threat. Padillah (talk) 19:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Block required (BLP related)

Personal attack, but more importantly he's using talk pages to disparage the subject of an article having had BLP violations reverted. I've warned him, but to little avail. Please can someone review recent contributions and block..--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I've indeffed the person since they're a new account, just openly vandalizing now, violating BLP, and launching personal attacks. Undo if needed. rootology (C)(T) 19:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Second Opinion Requested (ThuranX)

I have been attempting to informally work on a dispute between Arcayne (talk · contribs) and ThuranX (talk · contribs). As part of this dispute I asked arcayne to run all concerns he had with Thuran X's behavior through me so that i could filter extraneous requests (possible wiki stalking). After i made the request to arcayne, thuranx began a wild trail of straw man accusations against me. Any editors attempting to clarify the situation were attacked. I would appreciate a review of my actions to ensure that the initial comment to set this in motion was not inappropriate. here is the comment Below is a rough timeline.

• Arcayne reaches out to me for assistance on an edit dispute
• I reply telling arcayne to assume good faith and that thuranx is acting in good faith as well.
• Arcayne expresses concern of incivil behavior
• i drop a note at thuranx's page asking him to make content disputes about the content, not the editor
• i notify arcayne that I dropped a note at thuranX's talk page asking him to make content disptues about the content, not the editor
• thuran appears frustrated with apparent continued wikihounding(stalking) from arcayne. I drop a note asking that arcayne cease editing thuranx's talk page and instead run concerns through me (an attempt to diffuse the situation).
• thuranx mis-interprets my above statement and accuses me of coming to arcaynes defense.
  • Several other un-involved editors come along and alert thuran that he misinterpreted my statement. Thuran in paranoia accuses them of coming there to protect me
• Thuran again makes a long statement telling everybody that I am wrong and that there interpretation of what I have said is wrong. That I am in fact endorsing stalking and harrassement.
• I again try to clarify my initial comments were made with the itnent of asking arcayne to leave thuran alone. I also warn him that is blatant accusations of bad faith against all editors in the thread may get him blocked (I however intentionalyl do not state that I would block him as that would be a COI).
• again other uninvolved editors attempt to explain that the comment was direected at arcayne not him.
• thuran accuses me of posting the message directed at arcayne on his talk page because, "The reason that conversation is placed here is so that I don't forget that Arcayne has friend in high places."
• I tell thuran I am done sticking up for him as it has been thrown in my face repeatedly and that I am done dealing with it.
• Thuran uses a straw man argument on my above statement saying that I am endorsing stalking and that I am a bad admin.
• I tell thuran that watching problem editors is not stalking and that I am done being involved. Isattre, " Should you engage in any blatantly inappropriate behavior I will block you, no questions asked." and otherwise I am done.
• engages over and over in straw man arguments, implying extremes and things I never said with an edit summary, "go away already, you fascist." tells me to reverse the statements I have made and threatens to take it to ANI.
• I encourage him to take it to ANI.

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks! Chrislk02 18:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

In my own personal experience (which was quite negative) ThuranX is one of the most overtly hostile editors whose account is still active. His block log does not begin to reflect the overwhelming amount of personal attacks and invective, and AFAIK (though I could be wrong on this) he has never indicated a willingness to abide by community norms. IronDuke 18:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

He has been notified here. Chrislk02 18:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Concur. ThuranX's aggressive attacks on me on this very page were criticized. He obviously needs to learn how to be civil. AnyPerson (talk) 18:55, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

A block won't do that, though; it solves the short-term disruption but nothing else. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:59, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Quite true. Perhaps a mentor is in order here, someone (who ThuranX respects) who can block if/when ThuranX gets out of hand and monitor his posts for gross incivility. IronDuke 19:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't need a mentor, and you and I have past beefs that prevent you from being at all neutral, so be honest about that. What I DO need is for Arcayne to be prevented from stalking me, and Chrislk02 prevented from acting as Arcayne's bully-protector. ThuranX (talk) 22:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

You're quite right that we have had past beefs, this is why I said "In my own personal experience (which was quite negative) ..." Thats' why I knew, when I saw this post, that Chris was correct without having to wade througha lot of diffs. Would you be willing to promise to adhere to community norms re civility? Is that possible? It could at least preclude something like a mentor.IronDuke

Another recent discussion was at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts/archive57. Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:06, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This is half the story. Arcayne has been harassing me for years on here, and I've repeatedly left pages to disengage with him, starting with Thor (Marvel Comics) and most recently Joker (comics) and The Dark Knight (film). Chris has actively endorsed, shepherded, and protected Arcayne while he engages in a protracted period of wikistalking and harassment, and edit warring. I spent days on talk watching Arcayne continually ignore consensus, and policy, to maintain material that ONLY he felt was germane to the articles. Eight editors on one page, five on the other, all reverted him directly, or otherwise removed his addition. Many, though not all, used the talk page or clear edit summaries about this. I engaged him on talk at length. His responses were the same sort of obtuse wikilawyering others have seen in him before, each followed by a restoration of the material. Here's one early example:, wher Fbunny had just commented on the talk, and instead, Arcayne chooses to open a new section, in one of the oldest moves for gaming consensus, start a new section and act like you don't see the old. I think that's in WP:FLAT section 6, Gaming. When multiple editors present consensus by act and reasoning against him, and he's running close to 3RR, he turns around and warns me about it. I wasn't there at all, but it's a good move that Arcayne enjoys - Strike first, right or wrong. Then he runs and gets his protector, Chrislk02. Lest you think I'm kidding, - Some quotes from Chris: " Arcayne is welcome to review everything that you do. In fact, I will be paying a bit of attention to what you do too, especially due to your long history of incivility. It is not wrong to follow what other people do, in fact that is what makes this wiki such a great place." After Arcayne escalates a WQA in three places, deliberately NOT redirecting potentially interested editors to one central section. He gets three separate groups of people fired up about me, constantly posting and increasing the noise. Then I get blocked, and Chris sanctions Arcayne's actions. Since then, I've been under Arcayne's "watchful eye", which is really manipulative stalking. I have never represented, contrary to Chris and Arcayne's interpretations, that I think I'm above scrutiny, I simply do not want Arcayne to be the one doing it. That's all I keep asking for. Now, however, I have to ask that Chrislk02, who comes running at Arcayne's beck and call to back him up, also be precluded from coming around at me.

Further proof this is all Arcayne's game to get me? After I stated that I would be unwatching the articles, he completely stops editing them. He doesn't respond to other editors asking about the sections, he leaves the pages. Based on that, I have re-watched them. I am being held hostage to his games on Misplaced Pages, and my options, as I outlined earlier this month, are simple. I can either leave the project, or endure his constant gotcha-games. Neither's ideal for me, because outside of his nonsense, I enjoy what I do here, and I've been doing good stuff for a long time here. I'm sick and tired of worrying about when Arcayne's going to come out with another attempt to get me banned, which IS his ultimate goal here, and unless Chrislk02 is prevented from assisting him, that ban will be quietly imposed one evening when no one is paying attention, as an indef block.

I will admit, I was rude to R Baley for no good reason; it appears he was actually trying to help. But I have no similar good faith for Chris or Arcayne, both have made quite abundantly clear that they want to see me banned. ThuranX (talk) 22:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• I have to say that, based entirely upon their block logs, that indeffing both ThuranX and Arcayne would perhaps reduce third party editor/admin workloads but it should also be noted that both editors have made very many good contributions to the project. There needs to be a way of allowing both editors (and any alleged supporters) to edit the encyclopedia. The best way would be for both parties to agree not to edit in each others areas of interest and where there is already an established contested article for them not to directly revert each other or interact. I have some experience of formulating such conditions (see here - well, supporting Ncmvocalists work) and wonder if they might be adopted by the parties here? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I endorse LessHeard vanU's helpful suggestion. We can't go on like this. --John (talk) 22:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I...I want to weakly endorse Thuran's summary of events here. I don't want to say that Thuran is a charming fellow or that he didn't say the things in the diffs above. But I do want to say that the...coverage of Thuran's edits by Arcayne/Chris is outside the norm. We saw the last AN/I about Thuran, with a number of users (most notably Manhattan Samurai) clearly agitating for him to be blocked. They got their wish, partially because Thuran acutally was incivil but partially because hectoring in AN/I usually achieves its desired objectives. I suggest that editors and administrators commenting here look through the last AN/I about Thuran (the wonderful new search means that I don't have to dig through looking for the link myself) before determining which "side" to come down on. I will also note that LHVU does have some experience in setting up mutual topic bans but that those work best when the users share a minimum of coinciding interests. This may not be the case with those two. Protonk (talk) 00:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Topic bans aren't needed for either of us. All that's needed is a clear statement to Arcayne: "Stop stalking ThuranX, unwatch his page, stop playing tattletale, and remember, he's not always wrong, when consensus is 8-1, and 5-1 against inclusion, then material should probably be out." A simple statement to Chrislk02 that in the future, he should ask another admin to review material he thinks is objectionable instead of doing it himself or coming to me about it, would be enough. This second part is commonly stated here on AN/I about admins and editors they regularly butt heads with.

Check my talk page and my contribs. Outside of those two, I've been FAR more considerate since the last mess. However, Arcayne's deliberate provocation eventually worked. I can't report it, there's an admin endorsing it, and I just kept trying to make him see that there's great consensus against it. Unfortunately, Arcayne went and came at me, got an admin who I know is hostile to me to help, and pushed things back up to AN/I levels again. If not told by the community to disengage, he will do this again and again. Look at the long, contentious problem between Arcayne and DreamGuy. And once Arcayne drives me away, he'll move on to another editor. It's like he's got some passive-aggressive compulsion, which compels him to take on, headlong and unstoppably, any editor who stands up to him at length.

I'm not denying I'm prickly at times here, I had a long row with David Fuchs, who has commented above. However, since then, he and I have settled things, and have worked together on things. Other than Arcayne, and now Chris, I've got no regular editor to whom I can ascribe no good faith. I'm not saying many of the blocks in my log weren't deserved; they were. Some weren't. But this is getting ridiculous. Am I supposed to just unwatch every page Arcayne shows up on? I'll be off the page after a few months of slow, steady, expansion by Arcayne. ThuranX (talk) 01:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, no one notified me of this discussion, of which I appear to be a part of. Allow me to be blunt: I stopped watchlisting ThuranX some time ago, almost simply because he doesn't want to modify his behavior, and I have better things to do with my time here than babysit his edits. So I don't. I have not hounded his edits; in point of fact, I only discovered the last instance that resulted in his being blocked because I watchlist some of the pages that apparently he does as well, and noticed his throwing an undeserved beating into a fairly new user. As WQA has had little effect on his behavior in the past, I thought we were at risk for losing yet another user to ThuranX's behavior, so I took the matter to AN/I.
My first interaction with thuranX, more than two years ago, was no more pleasant than the one two days ago. His good contributions aside, his unchanging behavior is problematic. Granted, I've had a bumpy past, but I think I've grown as an editor, especially in matters of editorial interaction. I've seen newer users leave the project specifically because of his behavior, which is largely, 'it's my way, or fuck you'. Prickly doesn't begin to serve as an adequate descriptor.
It was because of this animosity on his part that I sought out the last admin who told me to come to him if I encountered problems. When I saw that the problems with ThuranX were only going to escalate, I needed some advice. Not protection, or preface to reporting him here, as Thuran kept claiming.
I want to stress that blocking/banning him shouldn't be a goal here; it has not in the past addressed his behavior at its core, and he would likely see such as unfair. As well, that might affect his mostly good contributions, turning them ever more sour. As to what would be more appropriate escapes me. I can't see him accepting a civility modification mentor, but maybe that might be a choice. - Arcayne () 07:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that after making such a big deal of how he was going to be policing me, that Arcayne instead quietly,without fanfare, changed his mind and unwatched my talk page between 6 Jan and 27 or so Jan, when we again came into conflict. He made such a big deal of how he had every right to watch me, supervise and report me, that it would simply be absurd to assume he'd changed his mind silently, without telling anyone. As for his first interactions, I left the Thor page because of him, since then, I've left other pages to avoid him. Arcayne, however, every few months, shows up, picks some point to build contention, and whenever I try to talk about it, escalates, usually by digging in his heels for a few days, then reporting me when I get frustrated with his behavior. You would think I would have learned the just report him even faster than he reports me, but no. each time, I go into it thinking 'this is the time I'll get him to listen to others.' Each time, I wind up reported and hassled. I just don't have any interest in being the aggressor, but I'm no good at not looking like one in the face of his behaviors.

This ist he best way I know to summarize how I feel about him: Arcayne is the kid who pokes the other kid in the back during class, randomly, and not too often... just enough that the kid in front knows that it's coming, but he doesn't know when. Then, the kid in front abruptly turns around and punches the kid behind him, and gets in trouble, and the kid behind knows it worked, and prepares to start all over, because the punch is worth the misery caused. That's what dealing with Arcayne is like for me. ThuranX (talk) 08:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

If ThuranX were under the impression that other editors were watching his behavior, it would serve as a temper on the behavior. After the first few days following his block, I kept him on my watchlist for a short period of time. I didn't interact with him, and went about my business. After a while, I took him off my watchlist and went on. convinced that - if the problem had not been resolved - someone else could deal with it.

A more accurate representation of his provided analogy would be the bully who picks on folk, and when someone finally decides to tell the principal about it, the bully either pretends to be sorry for it, or complains that he had to hit the kid because the kid wouldn't walk the way he wanted him to.

The best way to summarize Thuran's issue here is that if he doesn't want to feel at risk for being reported, he needs to sufficiently modify his behavior so that he no longer is susceptible to being blocked for a civility issue. ThuranX thinks he is the smartest kid in the room, and the reality is that no on e is the smartest person in the room while editing Misplaced Pages. - Arcayne () 16:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

A civility probation should suffice to suppress many conflicts involving Thuran. I have his talk page on my watchlist since I blocked him for incivility last year. Since then, it has become clear to me that Thuran has a problem in the way he expresses himself to users who are bringing him frustration. Thuran also seems to believe that users who complain against him are "out to get him", like in a conspiracy ring. Thuran does not seem to acknowledge own fault, always preferring to adopt an aggressive posture to defense himself against any admonishments, regardless of their rightfulness. This behavior should be restrained. Húsönd 18:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Even though i'm not an admin, i've dealt with uncivil editors before. They continually revert pages and make personal atttacks because neither one refuses to admit their wrong or reach a compromise. I think that either they both apologize and end this year long fight, or ignore eachother enitrely (at the risk of both being indef blocked). Elbutler (talk) 21:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I have been seeking a compromise in the article discussion virtually since this issue arose, so long as the event being disputed is included; as per at least three different policies, while at least one person keeps characterizing them as BLP and undue weight. As far as ThuranX is concerned, I'm not following him around; we simply edits some of the same pages. I leave his edits alone and perform mine. He chooses to attack my edits (not reverse, or question but attack), despite being repeatedly asked to focus on the edits and not the editor by no less than four different people.

In the best of worlds, he could be a lot nicer to folk (not just me). At the very least, the guy could stop attacking me at every given opportunity. Have the pages the wikitool indicated a commonality one or both of us have dropped from our watchlist. Thor is a typical example; I haven't edited there since five days in August, 2007, and during that time, none of my 11 edits interacted with ThuranX' edits). I don't seek the guy out (I mean, seriously - considering the guy's behavior, only a masochist would), and he in fact follows me to articles to post complaints, and has done so for more than a year. I am not sure why I should apologize for not backing down to a bully, or defending the new folk. - Arcayne () 22:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you seriously accusing me of stalking you now? Is this the level of absurdity that you must resort to? I can't believe this. ThuranX (talk) 03:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

One possible solution that might work is the "bang their heads together" probation: if there are any incidents of incivility or disruption between the two of them, they will both be given equal blocks regardless of who said or did what. This might sound a little odd, and I admit it's stretching the "deterrent" clause in the block policy, but it does provide an incentive for each to make sure that there aren't future conflicts. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 05:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• I'd totally endorse that. There are a couple of beans-y issues, but those would quickly become incredibly obvious. I suggest six months at the outset, to be reviewed at three. Either of them causes a stink with or about the other and they both get blocked, escalating times, reset the BHT (Bang Heads Together) timer. //roux   05:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Thirded, though I'd say start the blocks much lower than six months. And having looked at the "extreme" incivility (, , ) that Chrislk warns ThuranX for... Chrislk really does need to step back and let another admin handle this. I'm disturbed by his elsewhere-quotes of "You don't make friends and gain respect by being a dick and I would go as far as to say at time be a total asshole." and "Arcayne is welcome to review everything that you do. In fact, I will be paying a bit of attention to what you do too, espeically due to your long history of incivility." in response to ThuranX protesting that Chrislk was enabling Arcayne to stalk him. If ThuranX's behavior is really that egregious, it ought to be obvious to an uninvolved admin. arimareiji (talk) 13:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

A look at the talk page and article page of the article in question reveals that Arcayne was edit warring against at least six other editors by my count, including ThuranX. When Arcayne couldn't get his way, he went to Chrislk's talk page with claims about incivility. Chrislk then leaves a warning about incivility on TX's talk page. Take a look at the three diffs Chris cites as examples - I can't see any incivility in any of them, let alone of the "rather extreme" variety that Chrislk purports to have encountered. No wonder then, that ThuranX considers the warning from Chris as unjustified. Having got a negative reaction from ThuranX, Chrislk then comes here to start a case against him for doing so. But on what grounds, apart from the fact that ThuranX said in effect he doesn't believe Chrislk is acting impartially? That doesn't seem like any ground for an AN/I case to me. It's hardly suprising in the circumstances then, that ThuranX feels he is being victimized.

I therefore see no ground for action against ThuranX, but in Arcayne's case this is not the first time I have seen him making dubious claims of misconduct against other users. I think it would help it he started showing a little less enthusiasm for resort to the umpire, and a little more respect for basic policies like WP:CONSENSUS. Gatoclass (talk) 09:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Gato, did you actually read that diff? I in no way accuse thuran of incivility however ask that, as a good practice, when in an content dispute that he make the argument about the content in question, not the editor. This is genreal purpose advice that I feel should be offered as a first like in any Dispute. Note that I also very clearly say, " I have no intention of blocking anybody for this content dispute, which is what it is. ." You have either failed to read my entire post, or taken it completley out of context. I am confused as to why you find this a warning about incivility (a word I do not even use in the post). I even summarize my post in a nice conclusion "As I said on my talk page, both sides are most often acting in good faith with the intent of providing the most reliable, accurate and relevant material. However, each side does thid differently due to personality differences and different understanding (or lack of understanding) of wikipedias policies and guidelines. Thanks!". Again, what is wrong with this post? Chrislk02 13:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You asked for a second opinion. I gave you one. The diffs you posted as "rather extreme" examples of incivility were, at most, mild violations of WP:AGF, but users are not expected to extend AGF limitlessly, and these two users clearly have a history.

Furthermore I don't believe there is a legitimate case here. ThuranX expressed the view that you are not an impartial admin, you are entitled to disagree, but to continue to insist on his talk page that you are "only trying to help" - and then dragging him to AN/I when he refuses to accept your reassurances - only lends strength to his argument. And what exactly did you bring this to AN/I for anyway? Where does it say in policy that one is forbidden to express a distrust of an administrator? ThuranX has a right to his view, and though you may feel miffed by it, that is no reason to drag him to AN/I. Gatoclass (talk) 14:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I appreicate the second opinion. Please note I came to ANI to have my behavior evaluated. If you had followed the case and the diffs I provided above, THuranX was going to bring this to ANI anyways. In an effort to show good faith on my behalf i requested that MY behavior be evaluated. Afterwards both thuran and arcayne came in guns a blazing. The intent of this thread was to evaluate this comment. While I felt that the comment was not inappropriate, and several other editors did not either, thuran kept insisting that I had made the comment in bad faith. Both THuran and I were frustrated about this which is why I requested a second opinion of MY behavior. Chrislk02 15:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Gato: That policy was written back in 2004, but its origins are in the dawn of time. (To any whom it may concern: Joke) arimareiji (talk) 15:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Respectfully, you are wrong, Gatoclass. I went to Chrislk's page only when the discussion turned ugly, and not on my part (recall that whole, comment on the edits and not the editor thing?). Indeed, my question to Chris was whether I was acting out of order, and warranting the personal attacks levied against me. And they weren't doubtful; if I had issued the same against you, Gato, there isn't a way in hell you wouldn't feel attacked as well. And I will retiterate that at no time was I seeking punitive action against ThuranX; I just wanted the attacks to stop.

I won't speak to the content issue, as folk here have specifically noted that they don't want to address them. While I do see a lot of protectionist ownership happening in the articles in question ('wait, you want to add real world stuff to the article? How dare you!'), I guess I should allow consensus to be wrong, despite the fact that it violates essentially every other policy that we use, you know, verifiability, reliability, original research, crystal ball, etc. But if you are okay with that and personal attacks (

Okay, now every one's arguing, i think we all need to take a deep breath, take a short break from editing to cool off and think rationally, and try to avoid contact except for this noticeboard, further incivil comments (at least try to avoid swearing, that only fans the flames higher) will only make it worse. P.S. i'm moving this discussion down so it won't be archived by the bot since it's obviously not done yet. Elbutler (talk) 19:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Unban proposal for Rms125a@hotmail.com / User:Robert Sieger

Re-adding this here as it was archived too soon, and without conclusion - Alison 19:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Back last summer when this editor came up for a possible unban, I vowed that if he went six months without socking I'd open a new unban proposal on him myself. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive451#Proposed_conditional_unban_of_User:Rms125a.40hotmail.com Looks like he's held up his end of the bargain: see User:Alison/RMS log. Eliz81 has a set of conditions at User:Eliz81/RMS and has promised via e-mail that she'd support this proposal. She'll probably endorse shortly. Rms has waited on the sidelines as we've asked; let's give him another fair try. Respectfully, Durova 02:16, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

What got him banned in the first place? Was it behavioral or what?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

More socks than Sock Shop. There are 340 listed, and probably a lot that were missed, not flagged, or not associated. Black Kite 02:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

There are waaay more than that. RMS' socks go easily into the thousand - I, and others, just stopped logging them after a while - Alison 05:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The links Durova provided say it all. RMS has quite a...colorful history, but he's really worked hard to hold up his end of the bargain since July. Let's give him another chance to be a member of the community, under the provisions laid out in my userspace. Though maybe this request belongs in WP:ANI? ~Eliz81 05:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Oops - I wasn't aware that this has started already, and I'm caught a little unawares. Let me just say that RMS promised both Eliz81 and myself that after the last unsuccessful unban request, he's stay clear of Misplaced Pages and his notorious cadre of sock accounts. Well, he's done exactly that and I've been checking up on him regularly using checkuser. His IP and other tech info makes him instantly spottable. In short, he's kept up his side of the bargain. I have a pmail here from Jimmy that I was CCd on stating that he'd "support on general principles, if not been sockpuppeting in the meantime.", when 6 months has passed. I can't believe he lasted this long without socking, but he kept up his side of the deal. BTW - I've been dealing with RMS for ... what ... over three years now, and know his ways very well indeed. I've blocked more of his socks than any other admin and indeed, was vilified on-line and in the letters page of a newspaper by Robert, back in 2006 - and yes, I'd still support his unban 100%.

Having said all that, if he's to be unbanned by the community, I'd like it to be on condition that he be placed on probation for 3-6 months under the Troubles Arbitration conditions. After a while, that can be reviewed. But yes, he's been out in the cold way too long and I believe that everyone (well, almost!) is entitled to redemption. RMS, while socking, has spent most of the year keeping out of his 'hot button' articles, and had spent a lot of time wikignoming on biographical articles, and on early movie actors, etc. Time to bring him back in out of the cold! - Alison 05:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Eliz81's conditions are more appropriate than just Troubles Probation. I'd like to endorse that plan - Alison 05:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support unban; if they kept to the conditions, and Durova and Alison confirm they have, then we should keep to ours. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support - although the conditions (specifically #4 and #9) should be written in such a way as to allow an account name change. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• The restrictions look pretty weasel-proof but I think three months probation is too short. A review after three months may be appropriate, but the probation should be in place for at least six and preferably twelve months - a year would be normal if ArbCom sanctioned someone whose history of disruption is of this magnitude. 80.176.82.42 (talk) 12:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• I see little point in parole; a violation of the conditions is going to result in a block, likely indefinite and therefore a resumption of the ban, no matter if the editor is on parole or not. With their history this account does not need the stigma of parolee to ensure severe repercussions. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Call it probation, parole, agreed conditions, whatever - if there is no violation before everyone has forgotten the specifics then I think it won't be a problem. I just think that implying a three month limit to these restrictions is unhelpful in this case. Guy (Help!) 22:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to have a whole lot of visibility here. Mind if I move the thread to ANI? - Alison 04:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• Last time I checked email adresses were not suitable account names... - Mgm| 12:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

RMS's account was created before the September watershed, so he's okay there. That comes up all the time on WP:UAA. If needs be, he also has an account in his real name - Alison 14:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The only issues are that we cannot grant userrights to accounts with an @ sign and afaik, they cannot SUL. MBisanz 15:10, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Not really an issue; this was one of the accounts that got grandfathered in before the change. BTW no objection if the thread moves to ANI, Allie. Durova 21:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Durova, I am thinking more along the lines that if he ever wants any userright like Rollback or ever wants to SUL, he'll need to be renamed, which some people will claim he is doing to hide his past. But you are correct that it does not matter if he wants to keep the account. MBisanz 23:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we're already into worrying about this stuff, does that mean he's unbanned? ^_^ Seriously, though, he also has User:Robert Sieger, which may well be the account that gets unblocked, all going well - Alison 23:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea why he was banned, what he has done since then, or if he should be unbanned, I'm just trying to head off the picky technical bickering that will ensue if the point is reached where a large number of people want to unban him and a large number of people want to prevent unbanning by arguing over details. Yes, I am jaded, but only because I've seen it so many times before. MBisanz 23:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

All bans should be publically reviewed after a certain period of time, if requested by the banned editor. Misplaced Pages risk being guilty of incivility if we don't because administrators can be quite rude by email. I have experience of being mistreated at by an administrator and even told threatened with gang rape by another Wikipedian. (Ryulong and Durova both posted here, Durova was nice. No comment about Ryulong, he'll probably block me if I say anything less than stellar). What would be a suitable period of time? 1 year? 18 months? This would encourage good behavior and not using sockpuppetry. Chergles (talk) 21:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

That's more appropriate to bring up at WP:VPP. — The Hand That Feeds You: 02:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

With respect for Chergles's input I've created a new essay about lifting community bans. Misplaced Pages:Standard offer contains the standards I've practiced for over two years. Shortcut WP:SO. Durova 04:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW - Robert emailed me to say that he's dealing with a family issue right now and won't really be able to participate (on or off-wiki) in discussions here for the moment - Alison 15:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• No. I've gone back over this guy's record - old blocks, old RFCs, etc - and it's quite clear he's a lunatic bigot. We have enough of these on Misplaced Pages without letting another one from the past back into the fold. Troubles article have plenty of nutters editing them without another one being throw in. I don't care if he's been a good little boy and avoided socking for six pathetic months - ooh, well done, would you like some chocolate cake now? Leopards spots change do not. What do you think he wants to come back for? To carry on wikignoming on movie bio articles? I really don't think so. Moreschi (talk) 22:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I found this in my plague archives: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Rms125a@hotmail.com. Do we really think that any...person...capable of writing this revolting bile should be allowed near Misplaced Pages? Do we really? Moreschi (talk) 22:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Keeping him from Misplaced Pages isn't actually feasible, but genuine reform may be. He has refrained from socking for half a year. Okay, let's give him a try. He'll be on the short leash and there isn't likely to be any opposition to a renewed ban if problems return. There's little to lose by giving banned users an incentive to turn over a new leaf, as long as the parameters are fair and reasonable to both sides. Not too lenient, but not impossible either. Durova 04:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support unban per Eliz81's substantive conditions although I would go along with the suggestions that a new name is used. At a guess, I think I must have unwittingly welcomed almost a dozen of RMS's sock accounts during routine work at Recent Changes. You can add quite a few welcomes later, after I became aware of the history involved and where I had a gut feeling from editing patterns that it was RMS, but there was no legitimate reason not to assume good faith. I've knocked off a couple of socks along the way :). The events that led to his banning happened before I was active on Misplaced Pages, so I wasn't involved, but they clearly and unambigiously fall into the category of "things-up-with-which-Misplaced Pages-cannot-put" if the system is to work; perhaps if I had been involved then, I probably would be reluctant to support an unban now. But the question seems to me to be: has the situation, or more accurately, has RMS moved on from 2006 and would unbanning him compromise the encyclopaedia? He has kept to his agreement not to sock. From the few interactions I have had with RMS - although granted those were with sock accounts - and from reading his edits over the course of late 2007 and early 2008, my opinion is that he has moved a long way from the RMS of 2006. And, perhaps this isn't really relevant, but the fact that he is agreeing to go through this process earns a few points from me, if only on grounds of "intestinal fortitude". FlowerpotmaN·(t) 00:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Without going into too much detail, Robert had some personal issues back in 2006 that would certainly have caused problems, especially those outbursts that Moreschi noted above. That's all been resolved now and is in the past, and he's unlikely to go back to that behaviour. That's all I can say, really - Alison 09:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
    • And you believe him when he says this? "Oh, sorry, I couldn't help all the xenophobia and racism, I was a bit stressed at the time"? Do we have any proof of this? These conditions are incredibly generous. I could maybe support if the topic ban from Troubles articles was lifetime, but 6 months? You must be joking. Moreschi (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
      • I'm not sure that belief is an issue here; it's actions subsequent to any unbanning that are going to be the issue, and any edits on Troubles-related articles are inevitably going to scrutinized. Of course, anything along the lines of the events that got him banned are going to result in a reban, simple as that. If he makes edits that, if made by any other editor without any baggage, would be considered legitimate and constructive, then they should be treated on their merits as such; however, if there is a pattern of edits where he "plays the player, not the ball", where there is good reason to believe he is editing against another editor or editors rather than on the point, they aren't going to escape notice. There are enough neutral editors involved in the Troubles articles nowadays that someone is going to call him on them; even in six months, a year or two years from now, because of the history of the Trouble-related articles, it's highly unlikely that there won't be more than enough neutral editors who could easily - and quickly - come to a reasonable conclusion. Hey, even bleeding-heart liberals like me sometimes take comfort in knowing there's a Big Stick around the place somewhere :). People might be willing to let his past stay in the past and if things go to plan, the past can be forgotten, but he will still be subject to the rules on neutrality and personal attacks that all the rest of us have to work with. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 15:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
• While I have some of the same reservations and Moreschi, if durova, alison, and eliz all think rms has gotten past the rediculous behavior; I would support a short leased unbann (following eliz's conditions). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:54, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

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