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	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 12, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted August 18, 2004 Today's featured article Main Page January 23, 2007 Featured article review Kept July 26, 2007 Featured article review Kept April 15, 2008 Featured article review Kept September 16, 2008 Featured article review Kept November 4, 2008 Today's featured article Main Page December 2, 2008 Featured article review Kept A news item involving this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on November 5, 2008. Current status: Featured article

view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Jose Antonio Vargas (2007-09-17). "On Misplaced Pages, Debating 2008 Hopefuls' Every Facet". The Washington Post. Alison Stewart, Rachel Martin (2008-04-03). "'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare". The Bryant Park Project, NPR. Brooke Gladstone, Bob Garfield (2008-04-04). "Editors in Chief". On The Media, NPR. Eve Fairbanks (2008-04-09). "Wiki Woman". The New Republic. Jesse Brown (2008-04-10). "Hillary's Wiki Defender". Search Engine, CBC Radio One. Tom Foreman (2008-04-12). "Misplaced Pages Wars". This Week..., CNN. John J. Miller (2008-04-21). "Liberal Web". National Review. Kelly Heyboer (2008-05-28). "Clinton's entry in Misplaced Pages has a watchdog". The Star-Ledger. Paul Murnane (2008-05-28). "one of two pieces aired". WCBS Newsradio 880. Noam Cohen (2008-11-09). "Updating a Reference Site on the Fly". The New York Times. Adrian Bridgwater (January 22, 2009). "Obama Misplaced Pages page under possible security attack". ZDNet.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84

Specialized archives /Article probation /Article probation/Incidents /Historical diffs /weight /race

This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

Redundant discussions

In case anyone is wondering if they have an original comment about one of the frequently-discussed issues for this article, here is a list of discussions at length which have taken place just in the past couple of months.

Race

• Talk:Barack Obama/race
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Barack Obama is half-white
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Ethnicity in first sentence
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Media coverage of ethnicity controversy and the intro
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Mulatto, the term is Mullato
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#He's Multi-Racial.
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race

Religion

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Religon
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Religion

Citizenship

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Supreme Court Controversy
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Still no mention on the birth certificate?
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Donofrio v. Wells
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference

Full name

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Article Name
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II

Give this some consideration before deciding to start another one. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there an article or section related to the Transition Team? Chadlupkes (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The "Race/ethnicity" section has (presumably by "Wikidemon", the self-styled "owner" of this page) not just been consolidated or shifted to another already existing section: it has, in effect, simply been removed. The contents are no longer available unless one presses a special link to enter the "archive". Misplaced Pages guidelines explicitly forbid tampering with other contributors' material on a Talk Page. The current treatment of the "Race/ethnicity" section (rendering none of the contributions visible on the main Talk Page, effectively "hiding" it all inside an "archive") is a violation of these guidelines.Jakob37 (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Anything that can be done to speed the loading of this talk page up, I'm all for it. It's taking forever to load, and old issues that have been discussed ad infinitum don't need to be here. It's hard enough to discuss current issues as it is. Dayewalker (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case, there are several other "overly large" sections that could be archived. If User#1 thinks that Topic X is too long and boring, then that user may, without further ado, hide its contents inside an archive. But then User#2 thinks that Topic Y is too long and boring, so that user hides Topic Y's material inside an archive, although User#1 thinks it should stay visible. Is that how it's going to work?Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the issue of African-American, mixed race, Black, designation by oneself vs. by others, etc., this talk page has spiraled completely out of control. I was rather miffed a day or two ago to find that my contributions, along with others, on the subject had, without any consultation, suddenly been stuffed into an archive, and now I am doubly miffed to see that the same subject has grown another head, even much larger than the material subjected to archiving, and yet nobody is archiving it this time -- quite UNFAIR. In any case, the more important point I would like to raise is that 95% to 99% of the contributions on these interconnected topics have no PARTICULAR connection to Obama; these issues are part of the socio-political nature of American (U.S.) life. Since there seems to be no lack of Wiki-editors who love to manipulate other people's contributions, may I suggest that all this material, instead of being archived (effectively out-of-sight, out-of-mind), be used to construct a separate article on "race attitudes in the U.S." or something to that effect (cf. my comment in "Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama" ). The Obama article itself should contain an appropriately brief discussion of Obama's relationship to these issues, followed by a hyperlink to the (proposed) article where these issues are described/discussed in the larger context that they deserve. And the Obama Talk-Page will then hopefully return to a focus on Obama himself. The way that Obama has dealt with these issues is not so different from the way thousands or even millions of other people have done.Jakob37 (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC) i have come to notice that some of the people on this board are extremely racist and wont admit in the text of the article that obama is half white ..i understand the importance to some of the people on here that he be considered black but face facts he isnt.. he is listed as the first african american when in fact ,he isnt ..he might be the first half african american ever elected then when a true african american is elected you wont have to undo all the lies you have spouted about this one.this is afterall,a place where people come for knowledge not some general idea that is put forth by some people

Your comments are totally off base from beginning to end. Baseball Bugs 15:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC) bugs , nice brush off if i am so offbase then why isnt it mentioned anywhere in the text about his white hertitage..people are wanting to claim his citzenship but not the people who gave him the right to that citizenship his black father was not a citizen so why is everyone harping on his race and wont acknowledge the white side ..maybe if this source were more fair to other people there wouldnt be the rage about how a man with dual citizenship got elected president or about where he was born when anybody can have a birth certficate made up with about 30 minutes planning just a little research i can be anybody with a legitament birth certficate if you want to fair to the readers and to the man himself at least make it fair

Have you bothered to read past the first paragraph? Like where it states that his mother was white? Oh, and have you found any reliable sources that don't call him "the first African American President"? Of course he's African American. He's also English American. But that last part is hardly news, as most every President has been European American. Baseball Bugs 16:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC) yes i read the entire article and have seen lots of things about his life not published or ignored but the point i am making which you seem to be dodging he is only half and should be noted that way.. it is not as if it is hidden by him or anybody else if you were half italian 1/4 english and 1/4 russian would you want to be considered just russian ..he is english arabian and kenyan

We describe him the way the reliable sources describe him. And this has been already discussed at length. Your comments bring nothing new to the discussion. Baseball Bugs 16:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC) so you need to change the slogan from "the 💕" to the free " follow the masses rumormill" if you cant post truths about somebody

First rule: Misplaced Pages bases its information on reliable sources, not on the "rumormill" and not on someone's opinion of the "truth". Second rule: Kindly put your 4 tildes at the END of your comments rather than the beginning. Baseball Bugs 17:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

my apologies for posting incorectly ,but back to the main argument so you are saying that it isnt a reliable source that he is half white. if it is a reliable source it should be noted in the lead paragragh instead of half way down on one line69.134.20.90 (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

We go by reliable sources, and the wording is proper on that basis. Baseball Bugs 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm a bit intimidated by the attention this article receives, I'm not going to repeat an edit I've had to make several times in the past without some feedback. In the "Cultural and Political Image" section, it states: "With his Kenyan father and white American mother". This is a minor issue, but I think that "white" should be removed, simply because it is unnecessary. That he is of mixed ancestry is well-documented throughout the article. Originally, because I hate the whole concept of race, I wanted all mention of "black" (instead of Luo) and "white" (instead of English/American) removed, but as I am mostly satisfied with the White American article in how it addresses race perceptions in America, it works. The restating of it in the Cultural and Political Image section seems redundant if not obsessive. —Godheval 19:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the term "white", just as I wouldn't use "black" to describe Obama or his father. Since we are talking about the "Cultural and Political Image" section, I think describing his mother as European American would be appropriate. --Evb-wiki (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking it was redundant to mention ethnicity again at all - his father is listed simply as Kenyan, so the mother should be American. If there is need to mention ethnicity again, then either the used White American or European American are fine.—Godheval 20:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

End of term

There's seems to be an edit war going on over whether it should be mentioned when the current Presidential term ends. Let's discuss this, rather than edit warring. Should it be mentioned anywhere in the article? SMP0328. (talk) 03:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if it seemed like an edit war, but I just don't see why the end of term date should be on the George W. Bush article and not this one. Friginator (talk) 04:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I just reverted my own revert because I saw that it was in GWB's article before his term ended. Not an edit war. Just a simple misunderstanding. Ward3001 (talk) 04:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

←No, not exactly Ward - Friginator put it in, I removed it once, and he put it back instead of coming here to discuss - your edit was after that. Of course what happened on Bush's article doesn't dictate what happens here, but in any case, on the merits: Bush's exit was not put into his article less than a week after he took office in his first term - it was put in some time in January 2008 with some opposition to it, in fact. I think this is a wholly different situation, and it seems inappropriate to me for the introductory section of this biography. The Presidency of Barack Obama article might be an appropriate place for this, but not here, in my opinion. Tvoz/talk 04:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Technically, and not to be morbid, but Obama's term only ends in four scenarios: forced to remove from office (via legal process, incapacitation, or death); chooses to leave office; or January 20th, 2012 at 12:00pm EST, whichever comes first. Since arguably his term ends based on information and RS we have today, the only "valid" date to put in today is "January 20th, 2012 at 12:00pm EST", the RS that is the Constitution. The only question is 'should' it be in the article. From a purely technical standpoint, sure, it's valid to include it, since only one of those four other events can change the date. It's solely a question of do we put the current "known" date in. I'm neutral on it. rootology (C)(T) 07:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

2013, actually. And it's fair to include, for those who might wonder when his term is scheduled to end. There is one other scenario, that there might be an amendment to change the date. Rather unlikely. Baseball Bugs 14:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Not even going to bother logging in to ask. But isn't the constitution a primary source? Don't you have to rely on secondary sources writing about their interpretation of the constitution before you can cite? This does not seem to be one of the instances where a primary source is exempt from the guidelines which apply. Stating primary source information as if it were a fact about the practice of a thing would constitute invalidation of Misplaced Pages's continued role as a tertiary source. I don't come down one way or the other about the issue of IF the date should be included, but the US Constitution is a primary source document and only suitable for citation when talking about itself. If we're talking about how America's going to APPLY the constitution, secondary sources are necessary. 142.12.15.19 (talk) 14:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If the information is to be included at all, then it's "scheduled as" 1/20/2013. Anything else amounts to crystal ball. And if you find any secondary source that says anything other than what the Constitution prescribes, that would disqualify it as a "reliable" source. January 20th is not like the 1st or 2nd amendments. It's a straightforward and undisputed fact that doesn't require interpretation. Baseball Bugs 14:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

All sources require interpretation if they're challenged, since all sources can be interpreted. Independent analysis is the only way to work with a primary source which purports to be a matter of law. Otherwise supreme court interpretations of what information in the constitution means could be declared "not reliable sources" because they appear to countermand or strike down extant sections. The fact that the date is in there doesn't alleviate the need for a secondary source which flatly states the term's end, does it? The remark can be made in general, such as "the date prescribed in the Constitution of the United States of America places his term's end at January 20th, 2013", so that's cool. I thought the proposal was putting something definite like "Obama's term WILL END ON...". And a secondary source isn't invalidated just because it countermands a primary source unless the source is unreliable for all other purposes as well, since there is no inherent superiority to primary source a or b except from terms of understandability and reportage. 142.12.15.19 (talk) 15:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Since Obama may run for re-election, and the result of a re-election race is obviously unknown, we don't know yet when his presidency will end. Saying His current term will end on January 20, 2013. is a true but meaningless fact and makes it sound like he's some sort of lame duck. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Check the U.S. Constitution. A Presidential term is for four years. If he wins another election, that's known as a second term. No one has said that when his Presidency will end. Ward3001 (talk) 16:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we're getting too hung on the fine details, oddly. His Presidency is not mutually exclusive from his term, he's only "President" beyond the honorific of the title while his term runs. Simply put, legally, he's president unless he's forced from office by impeachment, resigns, incapacitated/death, or Jan 20 2013, whichever comes first. It's just a question of do we list Jan 20 2013 as term's end right now. It would be technically accurate to do so, since we have no reason or source to assume otherwise. That's the only real question. Do we or don't we? rootology (C)(T) 16:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely with Rootology. Do we or don't we? It's as simple as that. Ward3001 (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm saying we don't. If he's re-elected, he will serve as the 44th president from 2009 to 2017, not as the 44th president from 2009 to 2013 and the 45th president from 2013 to 2017 (see the intro to Bill Clinton or George W. Bush). Yes, this would be two terms and requires a re-election but in this case the presidency is for all intents and purposes continuous. What I'm saying is that although it's true that his current term ends in 2013, stating this gives the incorrect impression that he will stop being president then. The biographically important date will be when his presidency ends which we don't yet know, not the end of his first term. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If anyone is getting hung up on the notion of his term not necessarily lasting until that date, how about the phrasing "his current term expires"? That conveys the meaning of why the date has any relevancy. I can't confess to caring whether it has a place in the article. Bigbluefish (talk) 17:48, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't mean to be stupid here, but what exactly is the relevancy? Until he announces whether he's running for re-election, and if so whether he wins or loses, we have no idea if this date has any significance whatsoever. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The man's been President barely a week & there's already discussion over weither to show when his current term ends? GoodDay (talk) 18:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Presidents of some other countries are in an indefinite term of office. The timespan of the term is relevant. Bigbluefish (talk) 19:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

While there is, no doubt, a way to correctly state the information about when a presidential term ends, this seems nowhere remotely close to relevant for the lead of the Obama article (and probably not anywhere in this article). If readers are interested in the legal details of US presidential elections/terms, they can read plenty of linked articles directly on that topic. We're not hiding that information. On the other hand, how this pertains to Obama himself is just WP:CRYSTAL. Maybe he'll resign, be impeached, or die (heaven forbid the last, and all). Maybe he'll not run for second term. Or maybe he'll run and lose. Or maybe he'll win a second term. Putting any such scenarios in the lead is in no way relevant to this biography. Readers don't need speculations and probabilities. LotLE×talk 18:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Apart from the issue of whether we should include anything, I don't think this is a WP:CRYSTAL issue if it is stated that "his current term ends" on a specific date. Even if he left office for one of the unforeseen reasons mentioned above, it's still his term. For example, it was commonly said that Gerald Ford finished the remainder of Nixon's second term, and Lyndon Johnson completed Kennedy's term. Ward3001 (talk) 22:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed it is not crystal. However, rather than arguing all of this on first principles, why not follow convention? This must come up in every article about every person elected or appointed to a position for a fixed period. How do other good / A / featured articles describe terms for other politicians? Wikidemon (talk) 23:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The WP:CRYSTAL issue is not about the date his first term ends, but about whether the end of his current term will have any special significance. Because he may run for re-election and win, we don't know whether this date will be the end of his term of office or basically just another Sunday. Here's how the only other FAs where this applies treat it:

• Ban_Ki-moon (no mention, but Secretary-General of the United Nations says when the current term ends and that he's eligible for reappointment)
• Richard Cordray (end of his current term is mentioned, but he was elected out of cycle to fill a vacancy so this is not a normal case)
• John McCain (no mention other than that he's intending to run for re-election in 2010)
• Yoweri Museveni (article has sections for each term and lists the current term as 2006-2011)

This is not really a large enough sample to draw conclusions from, but if forced I'd say the prevailing "style" is that the end of a person's current term is not mentioned unless there are special circumstances. President of the United States, which is linked from the very first sentence of this article, clarifies the term of office is four years with a two term limit. If the point is to clarify here how long he might be President we could perhaps change the last sentence of the first paragraph to He was inaugurated to his first term as President on January 20, 2009. which basically says he's expected to be President until 2013 and may be until 2017. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL has nothing to do with whether the end of his current term will have any special significance; that's WP:N. WP:CRYSTAL does not address significance; it addresses whether a future event is likely to happen. And regardless of whether we decide to include the end of Obama's term, it most certainly will happen. WP:CRYSTAL is irrelevant. Ward3001 (talk) 02:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

From WP:CRYSTAL: 1. Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and .... Let's turn this around. Regardless of WP:CRYSTAL, are you saying you favor including something like His first term ends in Jan 2013 in the lead? If so, why? -- Rick Block (talk) 02:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying anything about whether the end of his term should be stated in the article. That is an issue addressed by WP:N, and I'm not expressing an opinion about notability. Of course WP:CRYSTAL says that a future event should be notable; virtually everything in Misplaced Pages must be notable. But notability is not the major issue of WP:CRYSTAL. I am saying that his term will end whether it is notable or not, and that the concerns expressed by WP:CRYSTAL do not apply. The only concern here is whether a statement about the end of his term is notable enough to include. Ward3001 (talk) 02:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, so you have no preference about whether the end of his current term is stated (particularly in the lead). Is there anyone actually in favor of this, or can we just close this issue? -- Rick Block (talk) 03:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with those who say the term is four years long and ends on January 20, 2013. Anything before that and someone would be filling out Obama's unexpired term. Newguy34 (talk) 03:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no question about how long the term is or when it ends. The question is should a sentence like His current term will end on January 20, 2013 be added to the lead or, as SMP0328. asks way up yonder, anywhere in this article? Tvoz, LotLE, I, and (I'll assume) GoodDay are saying no, at least not in the lead. Friginator seems to be saying yes, in the lead. I've suggested an alternative (probably not for the lead) qualifying that his recent inauguration was for his first term (leaving it open what might happen later). No one else seems to be taking a stance. Is that about right? -- Rick Block (talk) 04:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

One giant impassioned 'don't care' here. Wikidemon (talk) 04:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I feel that there is zero notability about the end of a president's first term, other than for wishful anticipators. It has no place in the article. Tarc (talk) 04:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If he wins the second election for his second term - does he have to be sworn in again ? If so then it ends 2013 and starts again once sworn in 2013 - Also it's not like it's a horse race and if he falls someone else will get the win, he's there till that date and thats it, unless dead, caught with some nasty secret or lie or kidnapped. In the UK we have no fixed term so we wouldn't put a date, you do have a fixed term so I cannot see a problem putting a date. If something bad happens we change the date, if not then it's correct - The Day will end at midnight, unless the earth blows up or we get hit by a meteorite or the sun explodes - the day ends at midnight cause my watch says so.--Chaosdruid (talk) 04:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It's customary to do the swearing-in again when the President wins a second term. Baseball Bugs 05:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not editors want to call it WP:CRYSTAL (which it is), adding this end-of-term bit is entirely unencyclopedic. For comparison, can anyone imagine adding "end of term" to the article on JFK?! We already know that past for sure, after all, even if we want to describe it as "Johnson served the latter part of Kennedy's term. For that matter, would anyone dream of adding to the article on Nixon that "He was elected to a term ending Jan 20, 1973; and reelected to a term ending Jan 20, 1977". While not quite as macabre, that would be equally strange sounding. At this point, we have no idea what the outcome of Obama's "first term" will be... and arbitrary insertion of content that happens to be relevant to the President of the United States or Constitution of the United States articles doesn't belong in the lead to this article. LotLE×talk 09:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

LotLE, Rick Block, Tarc, et al have it right. With Bush it could be argued that it was notable to include in the lead at the time it was added - January 2008, the start of his last year in office - as a countdown had begun regarding his lame-duck status. We've all seen the "1-20-2009 The End of an Error" bumperstickers and tshirts - the end of his Presidency was, in some quarters, as notable as the start of it. But regardless, a week into Obama's first term it seems out of place and unencyclopedic for this article, particularly for its lead. Presidency of Barack Obama perhaps, but not here. Tvoz/talk 09:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree - it is not notable, and should not be added to this article.--4wajzkd02 (talk) 03:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree with LotLe's point. This is at best, a body, not lead para, point for the article about the Obama Administration, not the article about the person. ThuranX (talk) 06:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama left handed.

Maybe it's trivial but maybe it should be mentioned that Obama is lefthanded(Or seems to be)

Quote-"Congratulations to President Barack Obama, the eighth left-handed person to become President of the United States.

Out of the 44 Presidents, 8 have been left-handed now—or 18%. Proportionally, that’s a higher percentage of lefties than the general population (which is estimated to be about 12% left-handed)."

from http://www.leftiesforobama.com/

Jellyboots (talk) 21:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

So how do we know if he's one of the 12% who would have been left-handed presidents anyway or the 6% who were advantaged because of their prowess in left-handedness? Put simply, this is an article about the most important details of Obama's life, and it draws from sources which discuss the most important details of Obama's life. The source you give is not like that - it exists purely to focus on his handedness without any balanced hint of where that might come between being the first black US president and what kind of pasta he likes. Bigbluefish (talk) 23:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, I believe that for a country with 44 presidents randomly selected from a population with 12% lefties, the probability of at least 8 of them being left handed could be expressed as: ${\displaystyle \sum _{n=8}^{44}{44 \choose n}\cdot 0.12^{n}\cdot 0.88^{44-n}=15.1\%}$. In other words, given seven countries with this long a history of leaders, on average one of them would have at least this number of lefties in their history. I'm not saying that the factors are purely random, just that out of interest it's not that surprising really. Any proper statistician willing to scrutinise my calculation, please do tell me if I got this right! Bigbluefish (talk) 00:13, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

A political blog isn't a reliable source, and I find his handedness trivial and not worthy of inclusion here, unless a reliable source makes that the focus of significant commentary, like 'Obama is making a major decision about the economy because he's left handed, here's the medical studies blah blah blah'. I would not find' Obama's left handed, which proves hes' a lefty(handedness), and thus a leftie (political), thus he's making these decisions.' ThuranX (talk) 00:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

It's possibly relevant in that left-handed people are statistically about half a sigma smarter and better looking than the other 88%. Nah. We had "left-handed" in there a while ago, along with stuff like his fondness for chili, but they were cut out as trivial. They should stay gone. PhGustaf (talk) 00:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Obama brought it up at one of his news conferences during a signing ceremony. That makes it relevant. Twested (talk) 22:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

He made a casual joke about it. That's not notable enough for a summary-style biography. PhGustaf (talk) 22:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The Presidents' right-or-left handedness would be more appropriate for an article about the U.S. Presidents overall. I think that same stat was brought up in The History Channel's recently re-broadcast series on the Presidents. FYI, Truman was ambidextrous, and used to alternate hands when he threw out the first ball each opening day. Baseball Bugs 00:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I am a minimalist/deletionist, but this factoid actually wouldn't bother me if it was in the right section and "read well". My son is a lefty and we have spoken about Obama being a lefty. Anyways, no biggie either way, --Tom 15:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, Handedness of Presidents of the United States is not a redlink... - auburnpilot talk 15:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
  • So there you are. It's covered. Baseball Bugs 17:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Ages of children

WP:BLP indicates that giving a year of birth for the ages of the children would be appropriate; however, that should only apply to their own BLPs. Of course, since the children are only notable by inheritance, they (quite rightly) don't have their own BLPs. Personal information about a well known person is permissible in their own BLP, but not in the BLP of another. I have, therefore, removed the date of birth information from the infobox. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:17, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that Family of Barack Obama contains a section on Sasha and Malia, and gives their exact birth dates. I think the privacy concern expressed in Misplaced Pages:BLP#Privacy_of_personal_information is mooted by this fact. In any case, that issue does not prohibit including birth years, just specific dates. I do not believe this policy has any direct relevance to whether or not to include birth years (i.e. ages) of Obama's children in this article.

Including the ages of Obama's children would, in my opinion, have sufficient relevance and notability to include in this biography, such as in the infobox. A Senator or President having a family consisting of school age children has a somewhat different possible effect on his/her perspective/priorities/family life/etc. than would having either infant children or adult children (at least at the level of "something readers might wish to know). Or also, the events of their births is relevant to Obama's own life during the years of their birth, as context for what else he was doing at those times. Having no children would be relevant too, but listing names obviously indicates they exist, even without ages. It is harmless, accords with policy, and is nominally useful to include the children's birth years in the infobox of this article. LotLE×talk 21:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I would note also that information on birth year of Obama's children has been in this article for a while, and was only removed (twice) today by Scjessey. The burden of showing a revised consensus is on the removal, according to WP:BRD, not on including the information (since no, it is not a WP:BLP issue). I do agree that the addition earlier today of specific birthdays was unnecessary, but Scjessey should have only removed that day-of-year, not the birth years. LotLE×talk 21:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think the information should be removed there. The years are enough, and the ages are covered elsewhere for the math-impaired. I can see no good reason to violate BLP with regards to anyone, including high profile famous kids. ThuranX (talk) 21:46, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The ages are pretty much common knowledge, so there shouldn't be a problem with including that. The exact birthdates, probably not so common, so not necessary for inclusion (here or in the Obama family article) IMHO. --Bobblehead 21:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree with years yes, month/day no. Years of childrens' births are biographically significant to the parent, and are included in most of our BLPs. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok with me - that's been bothering me too on the family article. Tvoz/talk 05:03, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Birth years of children are relevant and there is no good reason to remove them, no need to be more specific though. Landon1980 (talk) 05:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

That seems reasonable and appropriate. Baseball Bugs 05:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The White House pages for Barack and Michelle Obama give the ages of the kids, so presumably the birth years are fair game. The specific dates seem to be unimportant at this point, unless someone has in mind sending them birthday cards, in which case the sender could probably expect a pleasant visit from the FBI. Baseball Bugs 05:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I actually want to know what astrological sign they are.... just kidding, keep exact date out but include year. --Tom 15:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC)ps, birthday cards to the kids would not trigger FBI visit as it is a nice thought, what is the sinisterism in that? --Tom 15:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

That's what the FBI would be determining. Baseball Bugs 17:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This talk page's archive time

So, what do you all think? It was set to 3 days, but this page really cleared out fast as discussion in new sections slowed down way faster than I thought it could. I just set it to 7 days on the edit preceding this one, so that we don't archive too fast. Recommendations? rootology (C)(T) 05:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Political positions

I probably have formatted my inquiry incorrectly according to Misplaced Pages guidelines, so please excuse the mistake. I am concerned as to why President Obama's positions on abortion or gay rights are absent from the excerpt on this page. I recognize that there is an extended page detailing his views (including views on these issues). My honest worry is that people wish to remove these two social debates from the US political sphere. It is dishonest to manufacture an exclusion of these issues on an encyclopedia. Obviously, as an anonymous user, I cannot edit this page, or I would have made good-faith edits.

195.154.156.71 (talk) 14:08, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

See Political positions of Barack Obama, where many of the individual issues, such as LGBT and women's reproductive rights are addressed. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 15:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I, as I mentioned, was aware of the page devoted to his political positions. I am inquiring into how the political positions extract on this page was decided (I do know there are many edit wars, debates on popular pages like this one). Also, I want to know how can I propose an inclusion, or a further discussion as to why certain issues were highlighted in this page over others. I would contest the right-to-life/abortion debate along with the gay rights issue have importance equally with the other issues presented on this page. Again, I would expect the 'lock' on this article to bar me from edits even with a newly created username. Thanks. 195.154.156.71 (talk) 22:08, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

All of the issues are important — to somebody or other. So I find the rationale for singling these two out to be less than compelling. However, overall the section should be brought more up to date with the main subarticle on political positions, and should specifically attempt to be a summary of the content there. In particular, it currently seems to dwell disproportionately on foreign policy, and gives quite a dated account of his economic policy. Also, I am going to move (right now) the paragraph about the HIV summit to the subarticle. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 22:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I understand revamping in general. I hope, rather than singling out certain issues, to understand why the issues in the excerpt were selected, as well as why others were left to be exclusive to the sub-article. That includes, of course, the two issues I mentioned. It does seem to focus more on economy and international policy, with little substance on social issues. The discussion of Obama's appeal to the evangelicals doesn't reveal much in terms of his political positions.195.154.156.71 (talk) 18:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

May I ask the reverse question to you, why do you feel that the Gay Rights/Abortion stances should be placed in the main article over any other issue. Reasoning stands to say that no one issue should be put in the main article and that they should all be left in the daughter article. My thoughts are that we should remove the entire section and just leave the link to the sub article for the readers to follow if they want. That way we are not equating one issue as more important then any other issue. Brothejr (talk) 18:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I would not be against removing the section. Since I've entered the edit process with the current section the status quo, any inquiry or wish to edit is now perceived as undermining the importance of the other issues. I am not attempting to do so. Instead I wish to learn why these issues were selected above others.195.154.156.71 (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The best answer would be that when previous editors were writing that section, they were just showing a wide and very general examples of what his positions are. One of the things that needs to be remembered, is that this article was written in summary style. That means that we don't go into all the details and all the issues. Instead we just cover the over all picture and leave it to the daughter articles to go into the nitty-gritty. Plus, another issue here is what issues you believe in. The reason I say this is that those issues you believe in strongly are going to be the ones that you feel should be highlighted and are the most strongest to you. Yet, this does not mean they are more or less important then any other stance on an issue that Barack Obama takes. Also on a side note: if you truly want to edit this article, then why not take that last step, create an account, edit a few other articles for a very short bit, then come back and start editing here. Having an account does give you more choices and options then anonymous IP editing ever will. Brothejr (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

what is barack obamas position on serbias' kosovo and metohija region? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.187.11 (talk) 00:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

see Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama#Kosovo. Discussion of changing the article text of that position probably belongs on the talkpage of that article rather than this one. regards, --guyzero | talk 00:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama's half brother arrested on charge of marijuana possession

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

It's time to close this WP:SOAPBOX section due to no consensus to add the information. Brothejr (talk)

See: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/01/31/george.obama.arrest/index.html

Include this on the article. OK, I know this isn't very good for the president, but we have to write the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.151.211 (talk) 17:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd agree. We're talking about a half brother, in Kenya, who Obama has only met once in his life. It doesn't seem very relevant to Barack's bio at this point, and the article linked above even states "George Obama and the president barely know each other". - auburnpilot talk 17:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Unless Barack supplied the dope, it has no relevance whatsoever to Barack's bio. Baseball Bugs 17:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, IP, a contributor has already contributed this info here: George Obama. ↜Just me, here, now … 17:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

It's also covered in Family of Barack Obama. Baseball Bugs 17:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

As a point of reference, Bill Clinton's half-brother had some drug problems, which are not mentioned in Bill Clinton. The former President even controversially pardoned his brother, and that's not in Bill Clinton either. This is why we have WP:RECENT. Issues that people seize on as huge today (note "!!!!!" in the section header above) dwindle to almost nothing weeks or months later. Ward3001 (talk) 17:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the exclamation points from the header. To me, they seemed to be a form of POV pushing. SMP0328. (talk) 22:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Ya think? :) Baseball Bugs 22:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Is this the same brother who was living in a shack on a few dollars a month?--Jojhutton (talk) 22:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The Republican view would be that if someone's living in a shack, it's by choice. Baseball Bugs 22:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

"I've removed the exclamation points from the header." A small team from White House is working on to colour the president's bio on wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.151.211 (talk) 23:46, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Please watch the false accusations. You're edging into a personal attack. If you're concerned that the White House is editing this article please ask for a checkuser. Otherwise keep the personal comments about editors off this page. Ward3001 (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

How many 3 letters agency do you know? Do you really think that by a simple IP check you can catch them?

It's a non-starter here. I've removed it for the moment from the "family" article, where it is attracting some tabloid-ish BLP problems, until and unless the notability becomes clearer. We'll see how it plays out but it's a minor current incident. We have time to get these things right, Misplaced Pages is not world news today. Wikidemon (talk) 00:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

"minor current incident" currently this is a top story on cnn, I wouldn't call this minor incident. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.151.211 (talk) 00:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The operative word there is "currently". It's minor. Baseball Bugs 00:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually it's number 2 on the list, right ahead of "Prison employee sentenced to prison for having sex with inmate". Want to write an article on that? AnyPerson (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

This section should be closed because it is just soapery from an IP looking to push negative POV into a featured article. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:37, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

gb2conservapedia Sceptre 15:02, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Listing note

• I've listed a question re WP's coverage of George's arrest at the BLP noticeboard. ↜Just me, here, now … 17:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Steelers Fan

Can we add that he's a Pittsburgh Steelers fan under the Personal section. Here is the source- http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/obama/2009/01/30/obamas-big-endorsement-steelers-over-cardinals-in-super-bowl.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.138.187 (talk) 22:41, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

No. He's a Bears fan first and foremost. And there isn't enough space in this biography for every little tidbit of trivia known about him. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

No matter how smart he is about his football, it's not relevant. Grsz--Review 00:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Only maybe if he sends a sure-fire play to the coach, the way Nixon did once. Baseball Bugs 01:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Given all the interest, I'm wondering if it would be a good idea or not to branch off a "personal life of Barack Obama" (or under some similar title) where people could add stuff about chili cooking, sports fandom, basketball playing, left-handedness, favorite pizza topping, etc. I know it sounds like it might be a bad idea, but it just might work. Wikidemon (talk) 03:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That would make it easier to truncate like a dead leaf, in case someone posts an AFD. How about "Worshipful attention to everything about Barack Obama"? I voted for him, but it seems like McCain's comments about Obama being a celebrity were right on the mark. P.S. I'm making fun of the idea, but I wouldn't oppose it. Baseball Bugs 03:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Or better, Useless and completely unencyclopedic trivia about Barack Obama. --Bobblehead 03:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't hold back. Baseball Bugs 03:36, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

And don't assume it's useless. Some readers will want to know not just that he likes chili, but what kind of slow-cooker he uses; the specific kinds of chili beans; the types of spices used; and what brand of antacid he takes when he ate too much of it. The companies that make Tums, Rolaids, and Pepto-Abyssmal will be hanging on every word. Baseball Bugs 03:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

How about Information for obsessives of Barack Obama? SMP0328. (talk) 03:45, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, we're putting way too much trivial stuff in this article, stuff like this isn't necessary at all. Wizardman 03:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

We need a separate site called "wikitrivia" to cover this sort of thing. I'm sure it will be at least as well-sourced as "wikiquotes". Baseball Bugs 03:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I hear he puts two tablespoons of splenda in his coffee, and only drinks using his right hand, unless it's past 11:30 CST, in which he switches to his left hand. Just saying. OrangeMarlin 19:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I heard Obama beat up Chuck Norris. It can stay out, it's just trivia... rootology (C)(T) 01:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama's Criticism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closing this discussion before it degrades any farther. Brothejr (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I think even though Obama's approval ratings soar in the high 70s, for the sake of equal criticism (or at least an attempt at it), I think we should make a criticism section. This way we can be more neutral, and see why there are still people who don't like him. FOX News broadcasts propagated lies, for example about him "being a communist," and paling with terrorists, but we don't have any reason understand why people believe this other than the theory that they just don't know any better. Many people like Rush Limbaugh say that they hope he fails, but we need to understand why they say this rather than just dismiss them as unpatriotic. Then, of course, we have the illogical racists who resent having a black man as president, but...actually I guess we can just exclude that since it's too childish to even give attention to. People also point out that he is opposed to same-sex marriage, and that's something common of conservatives which liberals would criticize him for. People like Vladimir Putin say that as a politicion, he made alot of promises, but like all politicions, is not likely to keep them. In the interest of fairness, I think like George W. Bush had a criticism section, his successor, Obama, should have one too...however small anything valid may be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.199.102 (talk • contribs)

Criticism sections are strongly discouraged in Misplaced Pages articles. Rather than balancing the article, such a section is likely to become unnecessarily inflated by POV-pushers. Any criticism (or positive statements) should be well sourced and integrated into other sections of the article. And George W. Bush does not have a criticism section. Ward3001 (talk) 04:55, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Bush doesn't have a section, he has an entire article. That being said, other crap exists isn't a valid reason for creating an article here. As has been covered many, many times on this talk page, if you have any specific criticisms that you feel are missing from this article, they can be interleaved into the existing text here, or in one of the many sub-articles. --Bobblehead 05:12, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I realize that Bush has an article of criticisms, just as there is an entire article about Obama controversies, but anon 76.27.199.102 was suggesting a criticism section in Barack Obama. Ward3001 (talk) 05:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Please to point to an article that is entirely dedicated to Obama controversies. Can't find it.--Jojhutton (talk) 05:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I think he was referring to Barack Obama citizenship controversy, Bill Ayers presidential election controversy or Jeremiah Wright controversy. Grsz--Review 05:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Remember, Impartial (NPOV), which we do seek to achieve, may not mean 'balanced'. We don't have to give equal coverage, simply proportional, at best. With over 70 percent support, and some moer people still on the fence, the Rush Limbaugh type 'hope he fails/he's a dirty commie wrong for America' vibing folks are a small, if not FRINGE minority, and do not warrant 'equality' on the page. ThuranX (talk) 06:30, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I think we are being neutral, we aren't trying to push one side or the other.We should not give FoX or Rush Limbaugh any more light then what the media gives them.In general even if the bigger portion of RS started to give Limbaugh more light because of something he said about Obama, I'm not sure if it would even fit in this article, as this article is about Obama and not really about what people say about him.The article would be insanely long if we were to talk about what every person thinks/says about Obama.The illogical racist ( are their logical racists?) are just as childish as Limbaugh is, who wants Obama to fail simply because he does not like what he Obama is saying/doing.The racist doesn't like the person of different race, because they are different, you can see the similarities.From what i have figured from Obama's talk on same sex issues is that, he personally does not approve of SS marriage( maybe because he does not want it to be called "marriage" ) however Obama has said, he does not want to be the one to decide as President, he wants to leave that to the states.If he was completely opposed to the idea you would think he would try better to make it hard for the SS couples.All politicians make a lot of promises, Obama is no different in that respect to any other politician.According to politifact its 510, most politicians are unable to keep all their promises, and with Obama having that many i wouldn't be surprised if he cant keep them all.Having a section for purely criticisms or praise is bad, because it attracts more criticisms or praise, mostly of stuff that are not really of importance in the bigger scope of the article.If you think there are items (criticism) missing from the article then find RS that report it and then add it to the article at the location it best fits. Durga Dido (talk) 07:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

To tally the present discussion page, some editors seem to want coverage of the following "criticisms":

• That, according to a certain conspiracy theory, Obama was not actually born in the US.
• That Justice Roberts flubbed the presidential oath, and this was ... "bad."
• That despite being "bi-racial", Obama has assumed the African-American moniker, to great political effect.
• That Obama's half-brother, who he may never have actually met, was arrested for drug possession.
• That Obama is a politician, who has made some promises.
• That Obama opposes same-sex marriage (maybe), and is pro-choice (maybe). There are people who disagree with these two positions.
• That Obama "is a Communist".

While it is very likely that a "Criticism of Barack Obama" article is likely to develop eventually, the above bullet points seem to be a rather tenuous basis for doing so. Can we please try to do this with some decent sources? Nothing from the blogosphere or extreme-right-wingo-sphere (read "The Free Republic"). siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 07:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

sounds like an article better suited for Conservapedia. Theserialcomma (talk) 09:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

If you make a critic, then it a large chance that it will be deleted in 5 minutes, and perhaps your wiki account also. They say for every critic that it is a personal attack and so on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.145.160 (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

What was Obama's school performance?

Why there is zero information about his school performance? What was his average mark/how many tests he failed, etc. I think we should write that, even though that was bad/good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.145.160 (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

We have magna cum laude from Harvard Law School. That might trump any earlier stumbles, if there were any, but I haven't seen a hint of any cite for such. PhGustaf (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Was it ever an issue, at any time? The grades of Kerry and Bush became media fodder during the `04 election, but I don't believe the same ever came about for either Obama or McCain. Tarc (talk) 00:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

McCain was fifth from the bottom of his class at Annapolis, but nobody brought that up during the campaign. PhGustaf (talk) 03:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you know where are you? We talk about Obama's school performance, and not Mccain's or my grandmother's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.144.8 (talk) 08:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It would be worth discussing and reviewing if we had sources for his college performance, so we could decide if it's worth including (but probably would be better in the Early Life article). Sources? rootology (C)(T) 01:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Presidency Section

I suggest Section 4 (Presidency) to be moved into a position as 2.4 (under Political Career), seeing how his previous political career is featured there in a time-lined fashion. His career as a President should thus be featured there, as a summary like it is now, with the main article linked to from there! 80.216.56.89 (talk) 00:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Presidency is too major to be a subsection, but I added years to the Political Career subhead to clarify. Thanks for the suggestion. Tvoz/talk 07:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

First non-white western leader???

I think I would classify Jamaica as part of the west to where they've had black leaders, as well as South and Central America for hispanic people. Therefore Obama isn't even close to being the first non-white leader in the west. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.222.112.34 (talk) 06:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget about Alberto Fujimori. A Japenese-Peruvian who was President of Peru.--Jojhutton (talk) 13:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And South Africa is historically part of the west. Timrollpickering (talk) 10:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Broken Citations

I have found two broken citations, and than i removed them. You can see them on the history page. C H J L 10:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Was that a personal attack? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.144.8 (talk) 10:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

None is personal attack! I just removed the broken links which can't be accessed, please check it! C H J L 10:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where the IP editor's comment about "personal attack" came from, but as a sourcing matter, citations are allowed whether or not a live link can be found. Library books, offline government documents, radio and television shows, etc., are all valid sources in the right context - although where possible it is useful to find a live link, or provide a "courtesy link" to another copy of the same thing, or to add a second source that can be found online. When a link goes dead it's best to keep it, and if possible to find an archive or alternate version. Hope that helps. Wikidemon (talk) 18:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Open intellectual challenge: Why is Barack Obama considered African-American?

Oh good grief...here we go again with the African American race thing.

Obama is called what he identifies with. If that's OK with him, then it should be OK with all of us, regardless of what some newspaper is trying to define as "African American" (which it is never in a position to do, in the first place.

A view from a colored, Negro, Afro-American, Black, African American person (yes, we've been called all of these labels throughout our lifetimes) with people in my family from both sides of the aisle...really, becoming hung up of race definitions is not of major importance in the grand scheme of things.→Lwalt 23:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

FAQ Q2

This is a dynamic website and just because some text stood there for a longer period doesn't mean it can't be changes. In this article we use a broad non precise term. But for an example Rod Blagojevich article talks about the first Illinois Serbian American Governor, not European American, because we know who his ancestors are. Blagojevich calls himself American of Eastern European descent and talks about Serbia as often as Obama talks about Luo and Kenya, meaning rarely, but we still don't use that in the article. But in here we call him African American. (full stop) Despite the fact we know he is first of all not entirely African American and more importantly we know that he is exactly Kenyan Luo American. So in two similar articles in one we use a broad term and in the other article we use the most specific one. Why?

The current FAQ is not some final truth and perhaps we should change it to this:

Q2: The article refers to him as person of African descent but Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. Should he be called "person of African descent," "biracial," "mixed," "Kenyan-American," "mulatto," "quadroon" or something else ("African American," "black", etc.)?

A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. However Encyclopedia Misplaced Pages tries to contain as much as precise information as possible. It tries to avoid media generalization in order to also avoid misinterpretation and defamation and to provide readers with more thorough and encyclopedic data. That is why this article refers to Barack Obama as person of African descent. As you can see in other articles when person's ancestry is known, for an example Rod Blagojevich or Rahm Emanuel, they are referred according to their specific ethnic groups, in this example Serbian-American and Jewish-American. As for Barack Obama this would be Kenyan-American, however Barack Obama is not entirely of this descent. His mother was of white European ancestry and therefore we say that Barack Obama is a person of African descent.

Btw I tried discussing this with one user, but it can't be discussed because he literally wrote to me that he considers talk page correspondence to be harassment. Can we get some input from more serious editors?--Avala (talk) 15:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC) A bit off topic, but Avala is lying when he wrote about me: "he literally wrote to me that he considers talk page correspondence to be harassment". This is my response to him after he used a harsh tone with me about reverting his edit regarding ethnicity against consensus: "please don't make your arguments about Obama's ethnicity on my talk page. It goes on Talk:Barack Obama where the entire Misplaced Pages community can read it. ... please read WP:HARASS if you plan to repeatedly put your comments on my talk page instead of the appropriate page." Here's the diff if he denies it. Ward3001 (talk) 22:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The "current FAQ" is the reflection of the broad consensus that has been reached on this matter. The entry will remain "African-American" unless it is determined that consensus has changed, which appears to be extremely unlikely. otherwise, all this is is digging up the same ol horse and re-beating it. Again. And Again. And again. Tarc (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Consensus of whom? I don't like such arguments as "oh this is a closed chapter, we decided on that. any questions regarding that are not welcome". Either you can address the specific thing I wrote here (about FAQ) and specific questions (consensus here going against Misplaced Pages-wide consensus that can be seen in other articles. why?) or you can't. If you can then please do so, if you can't then don't waste your time to write how you are not interested in discussion - if you don't post it will be an obvious thing.--Avala (talk) 20:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

To read the history of the consensus on this matter, there are links at the top of this talkpage to the many archived discussions regarding identifying Obama as African American or something else. Consensus has continuously been the former, following the language of the overwhelming majority of reliable sourcing. In short, he made headlines for being the "First African American President", not "person of African descent" .... so we report A-A per WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:BLP. To answer your question, comparing this bio to Blagojevich or Emanuel does not demonstrate going against wikipedia-wide consensus -- we can find bios that handle the subjects ethnicity in a wide variety of ways, depending on the subject and the relative notability of his or her ethnicity, etc. We describe the details of Obama's parentage in the appropriate section. thanks, --guyzero | talk 20:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your constructive answer. However regarding the substance, I am still unconvinced that it is per Misplaced Pages rules to handle the very similar subject in different manners. It's very hard to find articles that match this one. For an example Alberto Fujimori, it says in the lead Japanese not Asian etc. And regarding Blagojevich - he campaigned as Eastern European American not Serbian American (though some media obviously emphasized the exact ethnic background due to the fact, that like Obama it's rare to have them in top politics). Even in his official biography it says his religion is Eastern Orthodox and not precisely Serbian Orthodox. Yet the article here deals with the subject in encyclopedic manner - it gives precise information. That is why I still can't figure out why do we put Obama on one side and all the other articles on the other side? Consensus doesn't mean much if it was made by people who dislike Barack Obama, if their intentions weren't good, if they edited in manner which can't be described as good faith etc. For consensus as you all know, it's necessary to have prevailing arguments, not votes support or oppose. It's per WP rules that consensus is not a set of votes but arguments. And I am still looking for an argument why are we using incomplete information here. The only thing I get is that Obama refers to himself in general as African American but like I said Blagojevich did the same and many others, they generalized for the media - you don't expect Obama to go around saying "Hi, I am Barack Obama, the first Luo-Kenyan and Anglo-Saxon American president". Nor Blagojevich to say all the time that his religion is "Serbian Eastern Orthodox Christian". Article on Bill Clinton begins with words "William Jefferson" and per this logic, he doesn't use that and everybody calls him Bill - we should drop it? --Avala (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

As Guyzero points out, we are bound by what can be verified in reliable sources, particularly in the context that the reference to him being A-A is used. In the context that A-A is being used it is not saying that Obama is only African-American, only that he is the first African-American to be elected president. It's a nuanced difference, yes, but an example of what I'm talking about is Daniel Akaka. One of Akaka's parents is Chinese and the other is Native Hawaiian and yet, it is perfectly acceptable to say that he was the first Native Hawaiian to serve in the Senate and he is also the only Chinese-American in the Senate. The sentence is highlighting the notable part of his ancestry. Applying this to Obama's ancestry, there isn't anything particularly notable about him being the 43rd white person to serve as president that part of his ancestry is not included in the lead. --Bobblehead 21:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

That I agree and is less important issue to me then the one that says African American when known perfectly where in Africa his roots are. Why are using broad terms if there is specific information? Arnold Schwarzenegger - the first thing we learn in the article that he is Austrian-American, not European American. Why? Because Arnold came from there and it's a known fact. Just like Obama knows his father is not somewhere from Africa but from Nyang’oma Kogelo. E-A term is not widely used like A-A for one simple reason - it is the unfortunate fact that most of the African American can't trace their ancestors to the exact spot in Africa while most of the Europeans know their roots. Nonetheless Barack Obama is luckier, he knows very precisely where his African ancestors are from (obviously because his ancestors came to the US in different time, more recently then ancestors of most of the A-A). So why is it the problem to say "of African descent"? It discreetly covers both the issue of him having other than African ancestors (and without going into unnecessary detailing in the lead) and him knowing his roots. I am not proposing anything radical, just the slight change of wording for greater precision.--Avala (talk) 21:47, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Because we follow the language that the vast majority of RS's use to describe him: First African American President, which, given the significant number of sources that report this idea, is noteworthy for the lead. The details of his specific parentage (and his father's origin) are also described in the appropriate section, so no information is missing and it is all located in the article with the same weight that the RS's discuss it. If the RS's later give significant prominence (in proportion to the other items in the lead) to the fact that his father is Luo, then we should look at this again, and consensus would maybe change. As a side note, (and I'm not at all trying to be snarky) my own POV -- and presumably that of most scientists -- is all of us are "of African descent", but applying that label to all bios in the encyclopedia would probably not be policy compliant (as RS's don't claim this per subject and it would be synthesis to do so.) Anyhow, apologies for the digression... regards, --guyzero | talk 22:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes but like I said according to that logic we can drop the William Jefferson from Bill Clinton article because no one ever calls him that way neither he refers to himself as WJC. And I think it is rather clear that we when say "of African descent" we mean of Barack Obama as person, not human being.--Avala (talk) 22:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ahhh, sorry, must have misunderstood what you were saying, but anywho, in the US the term African-American is more a representation of race than a country of ancestral origin. So a black person that is from Jamaica may be referred to as African-American even though their lineage is not a direct path from Africa to the US. Granted, in the case of Caribbean blacks, you're more likely to be corrected and informed that they are from the Caribbean, not Africa, but the term still applies to them. --Bobblehead 22:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with asking the question, but I am not interested at this time in a major substantive change to FAQ A2 or the determination it explains of referring to Obama as African-American as a primary racial identification. It's there because it represents long-term stable consensus, and avoids the endless repetition of the exact same discussion every day or two. It's also there because those discussions keep coming up - if 100% of the people agreed we would not need to put it in a FAQ would we? Let's call it 88%-92%. Wikidemon (talk) 22:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I've reviewed the answer to FAQ Q2 and I think it's pretty good (although possibly it digresses somewhat when discussing race in the second sentence). Regarding the article content and lead, the former is meant to provide a comprehensive account of what has been published by reliable sources, and the latter is supposed to be a brief summary of the most important information about the subject. As such it is appropriate that, in the body of the article, we provide all significant information, with reference to what our sources judge to be important, and in the lead, we look at how our sources describe the subject in their headlines and article leads. As others have noted, most sources providing a brief or summary description of Obama describe him as either African American or black. I hope this explains why our article lead uses the term African American. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 23:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The FAQ is written by people who have followed most or all of the 49 pages of discussion about this article. It summarises good faith discussions in which the majority agreed on certain editorial outcomes. It exists so that people with a particular idea about the article can see at a glance if their issue is a frequently visited subject without reading through all the archives. It presents the rationale by which the consensus has generally been reached.

If you think there is a flaw in the rationale you are entirely welcome to discuss it. However, my problem with your alternative is that the details of his ancestry are not nearly as important as his ethic identity, which is a matter of self and public identification. Obama is African-American, by definition, just as he is also Kenyan-American, bi-racial and so on. What matters is that in terms of historical significance, in terms of the context in the civil rights movement and in American history, the most notable perception of Obama is as African-American. The rest of the article and its sub-articles make it quite clear the specifics of his ancestry and the factors in his racial identity. Bigbluefish (talk) 13:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I just wanted to say I found the term Encyclopedia Misplaced Pages amusing. Thanks for making me smile. Paliku (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Public Service: Obama Race Arguments Reference

No telling whether it really will help, but I wrote up some of the "We shouldn't call Obama African-American" arguments on my user page, along with responses for each argument. It's effectively a longer FAQ Q2/A2. Perhaps referring the racial identity-questioners to a more complete response will help shorten these endlessly-recurring discussions. I copied the text to my talk page so feel free to comment on my Q's and A's. If it helps we might want to give it its own page. CouldOughta (talk) 04:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

You say "Note that there is no Misplaced Pages page for Person of African Descent, Afro-Caucasian, Luo-American, Other Term I Prefer, and so on. This is just a clue that the term you prefer is not superior to African American, which is a term known and understood by the overwhelming majority of English-speakers". But what about the article for term Multiracial American, where Barack Obama is listed anyway? He undoubtedly is that. African American or black is misleading - looking at the article Multiracial American I learned some new things, which media never emphasize. For some people they always call black, it turns out that they have mixed heritage. Luckily their WP articles are precise - they say in the lead that they are Multiracial Americans. Multiracial American actually doesn't exclude the term African American, on contrary it includes it, as well as any other term that could be used to describe Obama's ancestry.--Avala (talk) 11:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The other aspect of this argument, one that is unspoken, is that the people who do not prefer A-A and say that he should be described as African Descent or Mix-Race have something personal here. Either they completely disagree with the term African American or they do not apply it to themselves, if it could be applied to themselves. There are many variations of that same thought, but it all boils down to the same thing. While this argument is only about the FAQ, it is still exactly the same argument that had been used before. Plus, it will soon lead to the article itself. To restate what other editors have said, we only report what reliable sources call him, nothing more. Brothejr (talk) 11:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The definition of 'reliable sources', a term this list is very reliant on, is never clearly explained. In my mind, if a cite states something which is demonstrably false, it is by definition NOT reliable on this subject. You've also missed out a big argument - called Barack Obama black is an insult to his mother and generations of her ancestors (not least Barack's maternal grandparents who raised him), by simply erasing their involvement in him. Mr. Obama met his father TWICE and did not like him, so how can his father take precedence over his mother? Another theory is that 'African-American' is an acceptable term for a multiracial person if both that person's parents identified as black - people such as Will Smith, Beyoncé Knowles and Colin Powell can thus be regarded as black. As a counter-argument, Lewis Hamilton's page calls him mixed-race (and notes his 'first black F1 driver' status) in the intro, and Lewis' father has had a much bigger role in his life than Obama's. Barack Obama is the Harvard-educated son of two well-educated people, one of whom happens to be black - his election says little about the plight and achievement of inner-city blacks in most US cities.--MartinUK (talk) 11:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well if you have an issue with the term: reliable sources then this is not the place to discuss it. Please bring it up in the appropriate policy: WP:RS. Also, I have not missed a single thing about this argument. A variety of sources that have already been judged to be reliable, accurate, and verifiable refer to him as African American. He allows his friends to call him an African American, and so on and so on. Like I mentioned before, this all boils down to what you perceive him as and how you want the article to refer to him. This argument can be said a hundred different ways with a hundred different types of argument and debating styles, but it all boils down to the same thing. Brothejr (talk) 11:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is denying the fact that Obama is A-A as most of the media call him, but that is only one part of him. Barack Obama is a Multiracial American and while the media might ignore his maternal ancestry as uninteresting we should not do it for the sake of encyclopedic precision. And I have no relation to the term African-American one way or another. I just think that it is not precise in this particular example. This reminds me of a vigorous fight of some users a few years ago to have the article called Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and to use that wording in the lead. And they had consensus so it stayed like that while I was the odd user who proposed to use just Elizabeth II. Luckily Misplaced Pages matured over time and that as you can see now redirects to the article Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom which talks about Elizabeth II. I am sure that these partisan attempts of users who dislike Obama or who simply can't get a good view over some issues will go away in some time and that then we will have a mature, encyclopedic, neutral and precise article.--Avala (talk) 13:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

And I found this interesting text so I will share it with you: "Unless the one-drop rule still applies, our president-elect is not black. We call him that -- he calls himself that -- because we use dated language and logic. After more than 300 years and much difficult history, we hew to the old racist rule: Part-black is all black. Fifty percent equals a hundred. There's no in-between... To me, as to increasing numbers of mixed-race people, Barack Obama is not our first black president. He is our first biracial, bicultural president. He is more than the personification of African American achievement. He is a bridge between races, a living symbol of tolerance, a signal that strict racial categories must go."--Avala (talk) 13:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course Americans of mixed race identify with Obama, and want to claim him as one of their own. They are quite right to do so, their campaign is laudable, and when it is successful enough that most of the media decribe Obama as mixed-race or biracial rather than African American or black, I will be at the forefront of those urging the article lead to change. But until then, Misplaced Pages is not here to right great wrongs. We report what reliable sources say and we'll continue to do so. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 14:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well-stated. What we see in wikipedia from time to time is the desire to "set the public straight" about what some editors see as some perceived popular misconception. That is not wikipedia's purpose, and it's why reliable sources are so important. I'll give you a more mundane example. The sources will all tell you there have been 43 men who served as President, but there have been 44 Presidents, because Cleveland is counted twice. I claim that's incorrect, because the President is a man. 43 men, 43 Presidents. There have been 44 Presidencies or presidential administrations. However, the conventional sources say 44 Presidents. Hence, that's what we report also. Baseball Bugs 15:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Many media reported on Obama becoming 44th president, 43rd person to hold an office. Let's not twist it. It looks like a deliberate attempt to present this issue in wrong light. It is quite clear that the fact of his ancestry comes from reliable sources too, sometimes even the same but they don't go each and every time through this. So you will find CNN discussing Obama's multiracial background in one report but in everyday news they will probably not mention it and if they do, they will probably just call him black or African-American. To sum it up: His multiracial background is not disputed, the only question is whether we should ignore it. Just like I said with Bill Clinton - using this logic - what most media use in 99% of the time and what he calls himself we would have to drop the William Jefferson. But we don't. It's another issue where I had a dispute with a bunch of users a few years ago who thought that the article should omit his full name because no one ever calls him that way. In meantime it became an article that features his full name and his birth name in the lead section for which I am glad. I am 100% sure that this article will come to that level of maturity through time, perhaps I am asking for that too early but nonetheless I know it will.--Avala (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

There's the basic flaw in your argument. You're claiming wikipedia is "ignoring it". That is absolutely false. There is a section in this article that explains it. There is an entire separate article that discusses his diverse family. Your complaint boils down to a claim that "mixed race" should be in the lead. But the sources don't put "mixed race" in the lead of their articles. Nor should we. Baseball Bugs 16:55, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The article as it is now is already at that "level of maturity". Perhaps some editors just need to catch up? As others have noted, the only place where this "multi-racial" or whatever the euphemism-of-the-day is is left out of is the lead, since most reliable sources do not refer to him that way. They refer to him as simply "African-American" as a general description, then go into further detail later in their own reporting, if desired. That is precisely what the Misplaced Pages does as well; the general introduction, then the specifics later on. You're the one trying to swim against that. Tarc (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, that didn't go too badly. I'm a supporter of using "African American" in the lede and following with a clear, early paragraph that makes his heritage clear. My purpose in putting the arguments on my talk page was to provide a reference, and try to create clear, concise statements of the reasons to use "African American". Definitely not to start up the debate here again. MartinUK (talk) has brought up an arguemnt I didn't cover, the loss of Barack's (Nuts! I keep using his first name for some reason!) Obama's mother's contribution to his heritage. Rather than address MartinUK's new argument here, I'll respond on my talk page, since he echoed his response there. We're all free to debate here what term to use; if anyone wants to debate the specific arguments, feel free to go to my talk page. Not to debate what to call him-- but to address & refine the arguments. I'm intending to add all the counterarguments as well; with luck, future debates on this page can be conducted by cutting & pasting from the predefined list of arguments and counterarguments, thus saving time for everyone. CouldOughta (talk) 23:13, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Religion yet again

The addition of the second site reflects through the use of the preterit, that Obama is no longer affiliated with the UCC. I believe that we should remove the cite or use it fully to show the separation from the denomination. This is an official communication from the denomination and can thus be used to corroborate that he is no longer a member of the denomination. there is nothing in the article that disputes this : ]Die4Dixie (talk) 18:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I read the article, and typical of anything in which Microsoft is involved (my personal dead horse that that I keep kicking), I'm left confused. The implication is that he resigned from UCC when he resigned from the church, but is that true? I don't mean to impugn the quality of MSNBC journalism, but I am. Anyways, sans verification that he still belongs to UCC, we should remove any church affiliation. Honestly, I think he's non-religious, but that's just an opinion and original research. :D OrangeMarlin 19:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I assume you're referring to "The United Church of Christ, the denomination from which Obama resigned when he left Wright's church, issued a written invitation to join a UCC denomination in Washington and resume his connections to the church."? I don't think it would hurt to find an addition cite stating he resigned the denomination because I think a writer could easily mistake congregation with denomination. Grsz_Review 19:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The source added to his religion box uses the preterit when describing his church affiliation with the UCC, that in conjunction with the AP piece that msnbc promulgated that stated that he resigned from the denomination would tend to be corroborating evidence. I think the gratuitous mention of the UCC cite without more explanation of the resignation and Wright issue is undue weight. I believe we should remove the second citation from the information box, as it does nothing to clarify that he is currently a christian. You are correct in assuming that that is the part to which I referred, Grsz.Grammatically, the church's press release, by using the preterit, shows that he is not in. Were this not so, then it would have used the present perfect to show a continued affiliation.Die4Dixie (talk) 19:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

] third paragraph. I will try to find the comments from a more reliable reporting source. The one who allegedly stated this is without a doubt a reliable source if he indeed did say this.Die4Dixie (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

]. The horses mouth. The Obama's are no longer in fellowship with the UCC.Die4Dixie (talk) 19:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Has anything changed factually, since the last time this came up? Baseball Bugs 20:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

No; however, someone added a new citation to the box. I think that it should go, or be a lead in to a more developed discussion in the article about Wright and the leaving of TUCC. It is a dor opener that I imagine we don't want opened.Die4Dixie (talk) 21:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Nice try D4D, but we're not any closer to resolution on this matter. Thomas says he hopes the Obamas "will consider retaining their United Church of Christ membership" (bold added). You cannot retain something you do not already have. I would like to retain the $20,000 I just spent on a car, but it's not mine to retain. I can, however, retain the $20 that's in my pocket right now. Although it's still vague, to me the statement says that Obama (at least in Brown's view) is still a member of UCC (something that Brown wants him to retain). If Brown had said "return to membership" that would be much clearer. But you can't retain something that you have given up. Ergo, the Obamas have not given up membership in UCC, just the Trinity congregation. So we are left with conflicting sources. Nothing in the article about UCC membership should change, although I don't have a problem with removing the second cite that was added to the infobox. Ward3001 (talk) 22:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That's what I'm asking for. How an individual arrives at removing it is fine with me. The source is clear, however, that they are not in "fellowship" with UCC any longer.Die4Dixie (talk) 23:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree that it's clear that Obama is not "in fellowship". The press release says "grieve when any of our members chooses to leave our fellowship". It doesn't say he did leave, just that it would be sad if he did. It's too vague. Ward3001 (talk) 00:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

] this source refers to his membership in the preterit. It is dated after the other. Preterit is used for completed/finished action. The present perfect would have been employed if his membership continued into the present. This source is an official release from the church.Die4Dixie (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It says "spent more than 20 years as a UCC member". That's still too vague. I've spent more than 20 years on Earth, but that doesn't mean I have left or that I'm planning to leave any time soon. I don't think this statement clarifies anything beyond what we have already discussed. Ward3001 (talk) 00:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you have made my point by using a contracted form of the present perfect "I've spent" ( for I 'have' spent). If you had said " I spent 20 years on earth," it would mean there was some interruption to your presence on earth and that it was a completed event.Die4Dixie (talk) 02:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree again. I spent 20 years on Earth. I plan to spend many more years on Earth. But all of this is extreme semantic quibbling, and I don't think we can reach any conclusions analyzing to death a couple of words that the writer probably didn't give two seconds of thought to. Ward3001 (talk) 02:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to take a wild guess here that "in fellowship" is a flowery term for "attending", or attending on a regular basis. I get the feeling this may have been brought up before, but has anyone contacted the church hierarchy to find out definitively whether Obama is still considered to be a member or not? So far, what we've got are smidgens of comments from different writers that we're trying to interpret like some Papal pronouncement from 500 years ago. How about actually asking someone that knows? Baseball Bugs 00:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

That might be interesting info and I'd love to have it, but for Misplaced Pages's purposes, as you probably know, it would be off limits because of WP:NOR or WP:SYN. But the UCC hiearchy might point us toward a published source that's clearer. My guess however, is that the top dogs at UCC might not know or might disagree with each other. I doubt that anyone speaks with the authority that the Pope or Cardinals have in Catholicism. In fact, that's probably one reason we can't get a clear idea of what the truth is, if there is a truth here. This may remain vague unless/until Obama makes a clear statement, which may never happen. The Obamas may just simply start attending a church and, as we have discussed, attendance is not necessarily equivalent to membership. Ward3001 (talk) 00:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Precisely. Not as a source, but as confirmation or to tell us where to go, so to speak. And if the hierarchy can't even agree on what their own rules are, then the so-called reliable sources have no basis for whatever they might say, and therefore there is no choice but to say his church is still UCC until he declares otherwise. Baseball Bugs 00:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I offered to contact the Church directly if the community would accept their response, but was not encouraged by the lack of interest. If you are interested, I will do it and make any response, favorable or not, available to whomever desires to see it. If they are truly still members of the denomination, nothing would make me happier that an accurate reflection of their status. Accuracy is my only agenda with all this.Die4Dixie (talk) 01:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and ask. It may or may not help clear this up, but it can't do any harm. I think we need (1) their general rule for a hypothetical situation that matches Obama's; and (2) their position on Obama specifically, if they ineed have a position on it (they might or they might not). Baseball Bugs 01:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Their denominational head quarters are closed. I will call in the AM to get the email address of the answerer of questions :). I will identify myself as an editor here at Misplaced Pages, state that editors would like a definitive answer if it is possible to give one, and that our goal in asking is not to disparage nor denigrate the denomination nor the Obamas, but rather encyclopedic accuracy.Die4Dixie (talk) 01:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. Baseball Bugs 02:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually D4D, there isn't any question whether "the community would accept their response". We can't. Policy is very clear: no OR or synthesis. The most we can hope for is a suggestion by UCC about a published source specifically about the Obamas. Even if they direct you to one of their general policies, it violates WP:SYN for us to apply that to the Obamas. We can't interpret their policies. I also would oppose a statement such as "The Obamas resigned the Trinity congregation which, according the UCC policy means ..." That's synthesizing information not specifically pertaining to the Obamas and reaching our own conclusions. Whether our conclusions are right or wrong is beside the point. Either way, it violates WP:SYN. Ward3001 (talk) 02:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The need at this point is to try to find the right answer. That should make sourcing easier. Right now the so-called sources, which are little more than offhand comments in news sources that contradict each other, are of little use. Baseball Bugs 02:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I just don't want us getting swept off our feet in the excitement of a general statement by UCC and applying it the Obamas when we are not allowed to do that. Then we have another lengthy debate on this page. We can put UCC policy on United Church of Christ, but we can't put it on Barack Obama and imply something about Obama's church membership. That's where we cross the WP:SYN line. Ward3001 (talk) 02:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm with OM. I read all the above citations and sites as saying that Obama left both his congregation and the denomination following the Wright second shitstorm. Some articles note he hasn't been back to any church much since, and has picked no church or Church as his new choice. Hardly the actions of a man secure in his faith. ThuranX (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

That would be an original-research conclusion. He's been kinda busy. It would be interesting to find out if the family has attended any DC churches at all. Baseball Bugs 01:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thuran, Obama has also said his faith is not contingent on his church affiliation. The question for me is not if he has faith or does he have security in that faith, but rather if he has an official affiliation or denomination.Die4Dixie (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm with D4D here and as long as there are no reliable sources about his up-to-date '"affiliation or denomination" we should just leave Christian in the info-box without foot notes, remarks or what-so-ever.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with just "Christian" in infobox and no footnotes, but there should be no statement in the article that he has left UCC. That just isn't clear. Ward3001 (talk) 02:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You're right. It would leave us all in a strange place : We would know the fact had a positive (or negative) truth value, but would be unable to allow the article to reflect that truth. (I also responded to one of your earlier comments above, Ward)Die4Dixie (talk) 02:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The info-box and the article are two different issues, so I say. Of course details of his past can and should be included in the article or a sub .--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

And if Die4 can get the "official" answer, that should tell us which sources to use, if any. Baseball Bugs 02:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It's going to be difficult to get anything "official" from so non-hierarchical and Congregational a group as the UCC. The pastor's blog D4D cited isn't much of a source. "Christian" is fine in the infobox until something interesting happens. PhGustaf (talk) 02:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

This source seems to take the synth problem away from us, and connects the dots, again from UCC:]Die4Dixie (talk) 03:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry again, D4D, but I must differ. If you're referring to the statement "withdrawing his membership from the church", are we talking about the church known as Trinity, or the church (Church?) known as UCC. In fact, the statement is made immediately after reference to Trinity, thus raising much doubt about the possibility that it refers to UCC. It still is not clear. Someone can belong to St. Thingamajig Church, or the Worldwide Church of Whatsits. We don't know what "church" refers to. I applaud you tireless efforts to get an unequivocal source, but this is just too vague. Ward3001 (talk) 03:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking more about the 5th paragraph and the sixth where the connection between leaving TUCC is turned into how UCC members lament the breaking of fellowship. Perhaps still a tad ambiguous. Are emails ever considered reliable sources? I know that I have been able to use them for MLA styled papers and scholars certainly use letters in their scholarly writing. Anyone know if an official correspondence from the denomination would be a reliable source?Die4Dixie (talk) 03:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately not really unless there is a third party source confirming such statement.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

My response was to e-mails, just to clarify.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"5th paragraph and the sixth where the connection between leaving TUCC is turned into how UCC members lament the breaking of fellowship": Except it doesn't say he left TUCC. It says he withdrew "his membership from the church". Trinity Church, or UCC?? Back to square one. Ward3001 (talk) 03:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hence the ambiguity and seeming contradiction among the sources. The possibility has to be considered that the sources may not know the right answer either. Baseball Bugs 03:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Back to the email question, forgive my ignorance, but isn't there something about emails sent to the mysterious "OTRS" being official if the source is verified as authentic? I've never understood OTRS, but I see the term tossed around as a way to verify something like an image as authentic. It's probably a moot point anyway because I think there's an iceberg's chance in Hades of officals at UCC making an official statement about Obama's membership. Ward3001 (talk) 03:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It depends. Whatever the UCC would state we could only use it as a statement of theirs, not as a fact. To use it as a fact we need at least one reliable 3rd party source.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about that, but basically there are 3 possible answers to the question "Is Obama a member of the UCC?" - (1) "Yes"; (2) "No"; (3) "I don't know." Let's see what they have to say. We're waiting for an answer like it was an expected child. Give it a chance to hatch. :) Baseball Bugs 04:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Answer number 4: We don't give out personal information about our members. Ask Mr. Obama. His number is 202-456-1414. Ward3001 (talk) 04:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Silly me. Yes, that's the most likely answer. Die4 could still pose the hypothetical and see what they have to say (or if they hang up). Thanks for posting the number for the White House. I'm thinking I'll call him right now and tell him to drop whatever he's doing, like trying to fix the world's problems (or watching Leno or Letterman), and answer some nosy questions from a wikipedia busybody. :) Baseball Bugs 04:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

When you make that White House phone call, mention me, because I know how we can fix many of the things that need fixing (or poke fun at if we can't); the burdens shouldn't be all his. Modocc (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

arbitrary break

To turn this discussion in a more productive direction, I suggest that the following Newsweek article should be added to the article as a source on Obama's faith: Lisa Miller; Richard Wolffe (July 12, 2008). "Finding His Faith". Newsweek. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 04:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you leave your crap out of this discussion since you don't seem to understand the point anyway? Thanks, --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's really not helping here.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:49, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

That article is pretty much all speculation, as well as being half a year out of date. It's a good thing nobody pestered Lincoln about this stuff, or wouldn't have stood a chance. Lincoln was, in fact, probably the closest thing we've had to a non-religious or non-Christian President, although he seemed to gain faith as time went on. Baseball Bugs 04:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a "horse" in this race, as it were. But the Newsweek source appears to be about two years more current than the other sources for Obama's religion. Regardless, it is some further somewhat in-depth coverage of Obama's religious beliefs from a major US news outlet. I'm sorry if Newsweek is taboo, and I also agree that the article isn't great, but you seem to contend that Newsweek is no longer a reliable source for anything pertaining to Obama's religion. I find this puzzling, as well as the above comment by MCK. Did I miss something? siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 04:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for refactoring your comment, Silly Rabbit :) --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 05:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for your reception. The answer that we were searching for was about present affiliation. I certainly don't think your offer was crap. I have no idea if you have any history with clean keeper. I'm not sure how the information would fit in, and what information from the article/piece you would want included. Again, the reception was less than amicable, however I believe the fellow explained it didn't have anything to do with you personally. I hope he will reconsider, and that you will continue to contribute here at this and related pages. Another voice would be welcome, whatever the point of view.Die4Dixie (talk) 05:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I have spoken with the denominational headquarters and have received an answer to our question. I am unsure how to share it with the community. Please email me via Misplaced Pages and I will forward it to those who are interested.Die4Dixie (talk) 17:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The postulated four possible answers to the question, "Is Obama a member of the UCC denomination," were (1) Yes (2) No (3) We don't know (4) We won't say. Which of those four best describes the response you got? Baseball Bugs 19:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Because of the reluctance to come forward on Die4Dixie's part, I'm guessing their answer is "Pending" thus is both 3 and 4. They won't say we don't know, and are giving Obama an unofficial grace period. So lets label this answer 5, cause I don't care to begin secretly inquiring into unofficial emails responses. Modocc (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I spoke with Barb Powell by fone, and then sent her an email which she had agreed to answer. According to her, Obama ceased to be a member with the termination of the TUCC membership. She expressed the hope that he would reconcile. This is not a secret email, however, I used my name and school email account. I expect one might understand why I would prefer to forward this to those who are comfortable with me having their email addresses. Nothing secret nor sinister about that. If anyone has had experience with this kind of thing, could they tell me if there is a forum where by admins can authenticate an email and remove the personal information and share it with the community at large?21:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is the correspondence, with Die4Dixie's real name removed. Looks to me like this is solid enough to keep out assertion of UCC membership (though not verifiable enough to assert UCC non-membership.)

Dear Mr. "Die4Dixie",
Thanks so much for contacting us.
In the United Church of Christ, membership resides on the local church
level. When someone joins a local congregation, that person becomes a
member of the UCC. Similarly, if one resigns membership from a local
church, the person technically ceases being a member of the UCC. If a
person then joins a different UCC congregation, he or she is, once
again, a member of the denomination. The United Church of Christ is a
non-hierarchical denomination, and the relationships between its
settings are covenantal. The local church, then, becomes the
determinant for membership. Therefore, at this time, the President and
his family are not members of the United Church of Christ.
Thank you for taking the time to inquire.
-- Barb Powell
---
Barb Powell
Director for Production and Administration
UCC Proclamation, Identity and Communication
700 Prospect Ave.
Cleveland, OH 44115
216-736-2175
<email redacted>
>On 2/3/09 12:07 PM, "Die4Dixie" <someone@some.college.edu> wrote:
Dear Ms. Powell,
I am an editor at Misplaced Pages, an online encyclopedia that anyone can not
only use, but also edit. In such a project, it has proven necessary for
the community to implement rules that govern the the way that we decide
what can be used to write articles and the manner in which it can be
used. As a community, we strive to present factual information in a
neutral way, and are particularly mindful of the information that is
added to biographies of living persons.
Currently, the article on President Barack Obama reflects that he is
Christian. Until the last week, the article reflected that he continued
to be a member of the UCC. As editors, we are unable to read the
Constitution and Bylaws of the Church and apply our personal
interpretations to arrive at a determination as to if the First Family
have retained their membership at a denominational level. Some of the
national media reports have also interjected a degree of ambiguity. In
light of this ambiguity and our prohibition on original research, a
group of editors felt that direct contact with the Church might help to
clarify the situation.
We would be extremely gratified if you could explain to us the Obamas'
current official relationship with the Church, and specifically if they
retain membership at the denominational level and the reasons they do
or do not. Your response will be shared with other members of the
community in order that the article be as accurate as possible.
I want to thank you for your having so graciously called me and for
your time and willingness to help us clarify the matter.
Sincerely,
"Die4Dixie"

--jpgordon 22:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that's really cool (I mean, the process, no opinion about the substance). There are some sourcing problems to work through I suppose, but that's as close to the horse's mouth as anyone ever gets on Misplaced Pages... Wikidemon (talk) 22:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Should we import the following (along with its link to the Wright controversy sub)?

From "Religious affiliations of United States Presidents":

Christian/formerly United Church of Christ.: http://millercenter.org/academic/americanpresident/obama : An Associated Press wire story on Obama's resignation from Trinity United Church of Christ in the course of the Jeremiah Wright controversy stated that he had, in doing so, disaffiliated himself with the UCC. (See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27775757/.)

↜Just me, here, now … 22:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

• The fact is, most Christians have had denominational affiliation. The "religion" entry in an infobox is usually used to fill in the public on this point. Obama is formerly UCC, and otherwise is unaffiliated. Should this be included in the infobox with wording akin to the "Religious affiliations of United States Presidents" article's "Formerly United Church of Christ"? ↜Just me, here, now … 00:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

What is your reliable source that he is formerly UCC (and the email above is original research). If you can't come up with a reliable source (and none of the rest of us have been able to do this), it can't go in the article. Ward3001 (talk) 01:13, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Ward3001, the reason I started this thread was to discuss this issue in more detail. Those who mentioned in the above thread that they favor no mention of Obama's former affiliation should be allowed to defend their positions in this one. For example, D4D mentioned that the UCC should only be referred to if the Wright controversy was; but this objection may be met by way of my suggested edit's inclusion of a link to the article about the Wright controversy in its footnote. ↜Just me, here, now … 00:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Well looking at it, Obama has not picked another denomination to associate with. It is clear he is not part of the UCC anymore. So for now I feel that the religion part should just be left as Christian. I also see this as a way to bring the Wright controversy back into the article and give it more weight then it has now. Personally, I do not see a need to rush and do this now, next week, or next month. Obama will be in office for at least four more years and in that time he will most likely make some kind of announcement as to which denomination he chooses to associate with. I do not think we should or need to be rushing things and there is certainly no urgency to decide this now. Brothejr (talk) 01:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

What is your reliable source that "it is clear he is not part of the UCC anymore" (and the email above is original research). If you can't come up with a reliable source (and none of the rest of us have been able to do this), it can't go in the article. Ward3001 (talk) 01:13, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Which source claims Obama still is a member of the UCC? The UCC itself says that Obama was a member of the United Church of Christ for over twenty years. Then the Jake Tapper piece fleshes out the fact that Obama is no longer a member. Although I've never been a Protestant Christian, I've been somewhat curious about the rationale behind the various Protestant denominations for some years now...therefore I sensed that historical Congregationalism was not a-Church-one-"belonged"-to through baptism so much as it was a "congregation" of fellow believers who accepted a "Calvinistic understanding" of the Christian creed -- and thus had the hunch that the premise we've been arguing -- namely, whether a member of the UCC (one of the main, contemporary inheriters of Congregationalism) would still be UCC despite having quit his congregation -- would be out of synch with a basic premise of Congregationalism. Which is "original Research," I know. But, after we add in the UCC citation and Tapper, what more encyclopedic homework need be done? ↜Just me, here, now … 02:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

To answer my own question: I guess if someone believed in Congregationalism -- and this despite their not being a member of a congregation of such believers -- they could remain a Congregationalist or self-identify as one. So I retract my statement immediately above. ↜Just me, here, now … 02:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC) (PS I'd gotten this article by Jake Tapper confused with D4D's AP piece. Sorry.) ↜Just me, here, now … 03:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

"Which source claims Obama still is a member of the UCC?": First, that's not needed. If you want to say "formerly UCC" you have to provide a source that says he is not UCC. That's what much of the earlier debate focused on. Please read it, including the archives. Secondly, I did provide a source earlier: . Again, please look at the archives.
As I have said, you have provided no new information. This issue has been discussed in detail. Ward3001 (talk) 02:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

We wnt to the proper board and consensus was that that was not a relaible source.Die4Dixie (talk) 03:09, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Amended proposal

Instead of "Formerly UCC" we simply state Obama was a member for over 20 years, leaving his present identification ambiguous (retaining our mention of his having resigned from Trinity and our link to the Wright controversy article in the footnote). ↜Just me, here, now … 02:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree to this proposal. I think most of us in all the previous discussion came to the conclusion that identifying him in the infobox as simply "Christian" will suffice, and details about his leaving Trinity (but not UCC) can be provided in other parts of the article. Ward3001 (talk) 02:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Combine the email that confirms the reliable source ( the ap story that I have linked to ad naseam) and we have grounds for formerly. The email corroborates the ap story. Don´t believe the email, email me and I will send you Barb Powell´s number. christian is fine. Mention UCC, and we have to deal with Wright. Leaving a denomination after 20 years is a significant event in the life of a person of faith, which Obama claims to be. As far as the other page, the article (ap source) is reliable for formerly on that page. I don´t understand what the problem is here other than disruption.I have reomved protesdtant as it is ORDie4Dixie (talk) 03:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope, the email is OR and not available for official use, so it does not officially corroborate anything. It might be interesting info for us as individuals, but it is simply not a part of this process. We all agreed in good faith before even contacting UCC headquarters that such information cannot be used in the article. So we are left with conflicting sources about "formerly UCC", and, with respect, I consider it bad faith to now try to change the good-faith agreement (not to mention violation of WP:NOR) and try to circumvent the previous discussion by using email to decide the issue of "formerly UCC". And please carefully note the words of admin jpgordon about the email: "not verifiable enough to assert UCC non-membership". If we follow such a path I will not hesitate to go to RfC, mediation, or arbitration. Ward3001 (talk) 03:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don´t know where bad faith comes from. I just reverted the article to the consensus version, which I want to maintain. The about.com, per consensus at the prper board is not rliable and the other source that claims he is in the denomination was considered suspect by others here as to if it is a relaible source. Please note: I want to maintain Christian, and nothing else. The email is not OR, it is a primary source, and they are usable, in certain circumstances, if the article is not based on them. I am not pushing this. So , please assume good faith ,and not BAD Die4Dixie (talk) 03:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

And please behave in good faith if you want me to assume it. Please explain, in detail with links to Misplaced Pages policies, how an email sent to an individual user, which is not in any published work or on any reliable website other than Misplaced Pages, is not OR. And the about.com is no more suspect than the possibility that the writer of the msnbc article simply misstated himself. Let me repeat for about the fourth time. There is nothing new here. We simply have the same discussion popping up again. And at this point we certainly don't have consensus to state "formerly UCC". Ward3001 (talk) 03:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Look, you are trying to pick a fight that I do not want. I am in favor of the consensus version we have. ¿Why are you being so god cursed antagonistic?Die4Dixie (talk) 03:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm fine with using "Christian" and with taking out "Protestant". Where I have a HUGE problem is trying to slip the email in under the radar as an acceptable source for "formerly UCC" and pretending like it's not OR or that we have a consensus for "formerly UCC". Drop that issue and we're fine. Ward3001 (talk) 04:00, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't tell your not trying to pick a fight. Nobody wants to slip a fucking thing under any damned radar. I converted the article back to the fucking consensus version. I have not suggested we had any consensus for formerly UCC on this page. I was referring to the page that Just me mentioned. Now if you want to be pissy about it, I'll get fucking pissy. You have accused me of bad faith several times tonight. Now if you like, I will take the other pitiful source that you offered last week declared as unreliable as your about.jokes.com offer and have the ap article review as to if it is a reliable source and run with it. Now if you doubt the veracity of the email,( Barb informed me that she does the PR at the denominational level) or truly believe that he is a member of UCC, then say so. We can get this in with out the email. I'm happy with Christian. Now it might be more productive to find who ever keeps putting in Protestant and jump his shit. i'm only saying that if you mention UCC there, we will discuss Wright. I have a shit load of reliable sources about their relationship. Drop ity? You're the only one that has picked anything up.Die4Dixie (talk) 04:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I "doubt the veracity of the email". I said that the email is OR. And if you will read your words above, you're trying to say it isn't OR. There's a difference between "veracity of the email" and what is considered OR. Please read WP:NOR. I have no opinion about the Wright matter at this point. My only concern in this discussion is using the email to determine the contents of the article, in violation Misplaced Pages policy. I do believe you received the email, and that you received it as it is written above. The issue is not your truthfulness about the email. I believe the email is genuine. But that does not mean it is not OR. Why do you think admin jpgordon said "not verifiable enough to assert UCC non-membership"? Why do you think Misplaced Pages articles aren't full of citations to personal emails? It's because the email is OR, plain and simple. And if you think an email sent to an individual user is not OR, please give me the policy stating such. This is the second time I've asked you to do that. If you are willing to acknowledge that there is no such policy, then you and I are fine and we can bury the hatchet. But I don't intend to see anyone run roughshod over WP:NOR, whether you or anyone else, so please don't take that personally. You did a great job getting that email. But that doesn't negate Misplaced Pages policy. Ward3001 (talk) 04:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. The AP reporting is by definition a reliable source. The AP is explicitly mentioned in WP:RS to be a relible source. The idea that he might have mistated is lunacy. The email cannot be cited in the article. You are absolutely correct. The AP source can. The DC gossip mongering publisher that doesn´t enjoy a history of fact checking is unreliable. As I have looked more deeply into the source, the more troubling it is. About.com is unreliable. It can be verified that the publisher has stated that she doesn´nt know sht from shinolah about the issue. Now I am happy with Christian. If someone wants to build a consensus in usuing the AP source to say formerly, then I am willing to discuss it. If no one does, then it should remain as the consensus version. If someone wants to take the other source you offered last week that contradiscts the AP source to the reliable source board, then I will support that too. The AP source alone, with about.com already being declared unreliable and the other source likely to be, would stand alone and support Justme´s proposal. Hatchet buried.Die4Dixie (talk) 15:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

.Oh by the way, Mary just updated your about.com article that you have maintained is reliable. You might want to check it again. Quote "I did provide a source earlier: "Die4Dixie (talk) 15:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree, hatchet buried if you're not trying to use the email in a non-OR manner. And now that about.com has been updated, I think there is more weight to the position that "formerly UCC" might be used, although we still need consensus. And I'm with you that anyone can discuss using "formerly UCC", but currently there is no consensus. I've never felt that "formerly UCC" was an erroneous statement per se; I just wanted it decided by consensus. I really don't think you and I had any new differences of opinion until you made the statement that a personal email is not OR. That's really the only point where I had a serious problem. But as long as you don't push the issue of the email as not OR, I think we are OK. Sorry if I overreacted, but it was more in defense of policy than anything personal about an editor. I do sincerely believe you did a superb job getting the email, and it convinced me that we should just use "Christian" unless another consensus emerges. Ward3001 (talk) 16:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for my intemperate language and my abiguous statements. I should have said that the email should allow us to evaluate the other sources. We cannot quote it directly in any article; however, I think that common sense would allow us to have it in our minds. I am half tempted to contact that Hill source and ask them to run a correction. It would seem that it was more likely that that gentleman made the offhand remark than the AP reporter. Again, I apologize for my attitude.Die4Dixie (talk) 16:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems this forum is being "Baled" (...'though I don't know which of us arguers is Christian Bale.) ↜Just me, here, now … 04:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

D4D → Sms your usr nam should b Di4Dixi.<wink> ↜Just me, here, now … 03:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

New laptop.Spell check is in Spanish and I am a lousy typer. We used pencils when I was a kid.;).Die4Dixie (talk) 03:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

<laughs>

Re BHO/Protestantism (being "O.R," etc....): I think it'd be totally cool if he started attending an Eastern Rite church! :^) ↜Just me, here, now … 03:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama's health report

I've heard many times that the USA presidents health conditions (diseases etc.) are public and we can read them. Where can I downbload them? Why there is no link for that in the Obama's article? Pikacsu (talk) 19:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to research the matter and find the link. Baseball Bugs 19:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Number of men serving as President

Some weeks ago, someone was making a thing over Obama saying that 44 men had taken the oath of office. It occurs to me that while Cleveland counts as 2 Presidents but only as 1 man (even though he was big enough for 2 - n'yuk, n'yuk) that Obama may have been right, even if for the wrong reason. Cheney served as acting President a couple of times during Dubya's administration, and presumably he would have taken the Presidential oath of office. Voila. 44 men. Baseball Bugs 01:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Except the same could be applied to Bush Sr following the assassination attempt on Reagan. Technically, Secretary of State Alexander Haig at one point claimed he was in charge while Bush Sr. was in transit. In which case, Obama was still wrong because if you count "Acting Presidents", there have been 45 or 46 men. --Bobblehead 01:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Except that Bush Sr eventually became President anyway. And I do recall Haig saying he was "in charge", but I don't think he was ever constitutionally the Acting President, since there was no declaration of disability by Reagan or Bush Sr at that time. Baseball Bugs 02:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I never thought of that. When Younger Bush went under the knife, did Cheney actually take the oath? What about when Reagan and Older Bush, and Clinton and Gore, and anyone that came before? I usually know all this Presidential trivia, but I have no idea on this one... rootology (C)(T) 01:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The Vice President takes his own oath of office when he is sworn in, so I don't think he needs to take the Presidential oath of office before serving as "Acting President"... his Vice Presidential oath of office would suffice. I think he only needs to take Presidential Oath (which is different than the VP one) in the event that he becomes the actual President... I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so. Blueboar (talk) 02:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

It would be interesting to find out for sure. Not that it matters much. Baseball Bugs 02:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

If a person is Acting President, it means he has the Presidential powers without occupying the office of President. The numbering is based on how many times the office has changed hands (that's why Grover Cleveland counts twice). Neither time Dick Cheney was Acting President did he enter the office of President, so he doesn't count towards the numbering of Presidents. As for Al Haig, he was a usurper. SMP0328. (talk) 02:24, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's 44 with an asterisk, then. :) As for Al Haig, he was called other things that were less polite. :) Baseball Bugs 02:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Definitely not "Acting Prez" for Haig, since not even in his twisted fantasy were the Speaker of the House and President Pro Tem of the Senate also disabled. There aren't many polite words to accurately describe Haig. LotLE×talk 07:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Aw, poor Al. He was just trying to help even though it did sound a bit like a coup . Tvoz/talk 07:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe people are trying to defend Obama's misstatement. He (and probably his speechwriter) simply got a little confused by parroting the official count. I doubt it had anything to do with some sneaky, technically correct definition that only some political junkies would be aware of. marbeh raglaim (talk) 13:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

"Defending" is a little strong. As I said at the time someone brought it up and was trying to make a big deal out of it, it's entirely possible they said it the way they did just to keep things simple and not divert the inaugural address into a classroom lecture about the two Cleveland administrations. When I was reminded of the "acting President" situation, it occurred to me they might have been right after all, but just for the wrong reason. Baseball Bugs 13:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the famous JFK statement, "Ich bin ein Berliner," and how, by his not-quite grammatical statement, he was literally comparing himself to a pastry. I asked a German colleague about that once, and he said, "We knew what he meant." The meaning can be more important than the pedestrian details. Baseball Bugs 13:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, VP Cheney in 2002, 2007 & VP Bush in 1985 did not take any oath to assume (under the 25th Amendment) the Presidential powers & duties. During those incidents both men continued as Vice President. GoodDay (talk) 18:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Deletion review - First 100 days

Please see Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2009 February 4 for a DRV on a First 100 days article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:11, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Television Interviews as President

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Barack Obama's first television interview as president was with Arab news network Al-Arabiya, in which he stated that it would be possible to see a Palestinian state "that allows for trade with other countries, that allows the creation of businesses and commerce so that people have a better life." So far, Obama has also appeared on the TODAY show with Matt Lauer, ABC News with Charlie Gibson, and FOX News with Chris Wallace.

The fact that Obama gave his first interview to Al-Arabiya is probably worth mentioning somewhere for its symbolic value, which was quite intentional. However, a generic statement about wanting to see a Palestinian state is something I think every American president has done. Paliku (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not agree with the need for this edit. This is not the level of detail that should be going into a summary style article, and it would seem this would give the event undue weight. Furthermore, "completeobamaspeecharchive.com" is not a reliable source as far as I can tell. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:23, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Presidency of Barack Obama touches on the theme of Obama's outreach to the Muslim community; currently I think his statements about his approach are more important than specific gestures like this. Let's see if people hark back to this interview when talking about the issue in the future, then it might be relevant. Bigbluefish (talk) 15:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Agenda as president in lead

There should be a sentence in the lead section about his planned agenda as president, or what he had campaigned on, or however you wish to phrase it. I'm sure there will be a debate over every single word of the sentence, but I think things like restoring America's image abroad (whether the need to do so is real or perceived) merit mention as his central focus was a change from the previous administration. Paliku (talk) 21:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The lead should represent a summary of the article and even so you have a point here it can't go as far as "cherry-picking" points that one might prefer. Yet a short addition could be added after presenting/discussing it on talk to reach some consensus (especially when it comes to the lead).--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not see a need to add any of this in the lead. The lead is only for the most major over all representative overview of the article. It's kind of like a quick snap shot of the man. I do not see Obama's agenda as that important to merit a line or two in the lead. Brothejr (talk) 01:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This is Obama's biography, not an article about his presidency. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:13, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

There is a valid concern here, although maybe not about his political positions per se. The last paragraph of the lead discusses exclusively his political actions or achievements as a senator. His actions addressing the subprime mortgage crisis and Guantanamo Bay are at least as important and influential as this. I was going to add the following to the lead but then thought that there should be some feedback first:

Upon assuming the presidency, Obama's early actions included steps to address the subprime mortgage crisis and order the closure of Guantanamo Bay detention camp.

How does that sound? Bigbluefish (talk) 15:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm still going to say no. I even will go so far as to say that we should remove that paragraph all together. To try an include some but not others brings up questions as to why we note some positions and actions, but not others. To simplify and also to stem any further "why can't we include this..." arguments, I say lets remove the entire paragraph. If people want to find out what he has already done, they can look down into the article or follow the links to the sub articles. Brothejr (talk) 15:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Being Bold I went ahead and removed the paragraph that should never have been there in the first place. The lead is there as a quick overview of the extremely major events of Barack Obama's life covered in the article. It is not there for highlights of his presidential positions, his political positions, stances, or any derivation there of. Brothejr (talk) 16:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Applaudably bold, and I for one agree. I now just wish I had been the one to realise the unnecessariness of that paragraph! Bigbluefish (talk) 16:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Should we take off "Community Organizer" as a listed profession?

This is not something to be placed on the greater scale of someone who ranks as high as the President of United States. --96.232.61.149 (talk) 06:02, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, scratch that part of his resume. Let's try instead that he was a war hero. No? OK, how about hot-shot plaintiff's lawyer? ...A television evangelist? A business tycoon? </sarcasm> ↜Just me, here, now … 06:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it does not seem to be a significant part of his professional development, more like an occasional duty at some of the political positions he held.Wikidemon (talk) 07:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep it. If only to encourage other Community Organizers who might be President some day. Come on, it's an important part of his career. PhGustaf (talk) 13:02, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep it. His role as a community organizer turned out to be pivotal, as it was where he honed his skills for politicking, public speaking and mobilizing people. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:18, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama is also on record saying that he views the Presidency as a large-scale community organisation project. It is an important part of his background. Bigbluefish (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

" former community organizer"? BTW, WIkipedia does not exist to offer career encouragement for would be organizers.Die4Dixie (talk) 16:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Ronald Reagan's acting career and Gerald Ford, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Grover Cleveland's law careers, to name the other presidential FAs, ended long before their ascension to Presidency. That space in the infobox is specifically to list previous notable professions, and Obama's pre-political career is without question defined by community organising. Bigbluefish (talk) 16:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds right, even if gustafs reasoning was specious.Die4Dixie (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Died soldiers

How many soldiers died under the Obama administration in Iraq and Afganisthan?

Why isn't this data in the article? Under Bush it was known and news agency almost every day reported this growing number.

1. ], Al-Arabiya Transcript, January 27, 2009.

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