Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:16, 30 April 2009

Template:Article probation

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ancient Egyptian race controversy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18Auto-archiving period: 14 days

Template:AncientEgyptBanner

Ancient Egyptian race controversy received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2006/12/10. The result of the discussion was keep.

	Human Genetic History (inactive)
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human Genetic History, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Human Genetic HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryHuman Genetic History

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Archives

Archive 1 - Dec 2006 to Jan 2007 Archive 2 - Jan 2007 to Apr 2007 Archive 3 - Apr 2007 to May 2007 Archive 4 - May 2007 - 12 May 2007 Archive 5 - May 2007 Archive 6 - to May 23, 2007 Archive 7 - May 25 to July 14 2007 Archive of "appearance" article) Archive 8 - to August 23 2007 Archive 9 - to September 15 2007 Archive 10 - to October 29 2007 Archive 11 - to November 5 2007 Archive 12 - to December 13 2007 Archive 13 - to August 12 2008 Archive 14 - to September 3 2008 Archive 15 - to September 23 2008 Archive 16 - to February 6 2009 Archive 17 - to February 13 2009 Archive 18 - to February 16 2009 Archive 19 Archive 20 Archive 21 Archive 22 Archive 23

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Redundant images

The image http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Seti.jpg appears twice on the page. I haven't followed the previous editing of the page so I didn't know which image was more appropriate. I assume there is a precedent for only using an image once in a given article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.80.150 (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The user AnwarSadatFan has repeatedly deleted images he perceives as being redundant because they are of the same person and clutter the article. In particular he has a problem with the multiple images of King Tut in the Modern Controversies section. I do agree to an extent that we do not need so many pictures however I also strongly feel that the Egyptian artwork of an individual should be represented if we are going to post a reconstruction. I propose sending the Death Mask and Bust to the gallery. But as stated earlier I am having trouble adding images to the gallery myself. AncientObserver (talk) 10:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Anwarsadat, the second image of Tut is necessary to illustrate the basis of the controversy. When you choose instead to accept one image only, you are pushing a POV that the Egyptians were Caucasoid instead of rightly showing that the debate has merit on both sides. Your rationale that "one is enough" is irrelevant and in fact contrary to providing readers a balanced, verifiable insight into the debate of the Ancient Egyptians. I will support any move to restrict your access to the article or to limit your ability to continue if a grievance is made. Please stop, I think showing two varying images side by side is a perfect example that illustrates the debate itself. --Panehesy (talk) 13:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm hoping that we can reach a consensus on this issue. I'm fully willing to allow the National Geographic image to stand alone in that section so long as King Tut's bust is placed in the gallery. But I agree with Panhesy that Anwarsadatfan's POV editing of the images must stop. Originally he deleted the bust because he complained that it was painted and could mislead viewers when the scholarly consensus was that Tut had tan-skin. Now he is changing his story to complain that multiple images of the same person are cluttering the article yet he now approves of Wdford's presentation of two images of Amenhotep. This is proof of POV bias. I uploaded those images to be placed side by side for a reason and insist that both images remain on the article because they are necessary to provide balance to the subject. AncientObserver (talk) 13:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

If he does it again, we can submit a complaint together. --Panehesy (talk) 13:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I've noticed too that he deleted wdford's picture only to reinstate it after he saw who it was that contributed it, which suggests selectivity bias. A complaint may indeed be warranted if it persists. Did you try communicating with him first on his talk page?Taharqa (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused. The painted image could mislead viewers because he had tan-skin? How do they know that he had tan skin? And the entire controversy about this is that he did NOT have tan-skin. SO it would be necessary to illustrate that. To stifle the expression by photo of both sides of the controversy is in effect using the article itself to promote one side. Basically show photos that support your side only, and refuse to show pictures that show the other side. That's not the article's purpose. --Panehesy (talk) 18:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

What AnwarSadatFan said in an earlier edit was that the general consensus was that Tut had tan skin like the reconstruction (Not true. That skintone according to the artist is based on the "average shade" of modern Egyptians) and that the bust I posted was "misleading" to viewers because it was painted (which I take to mean that Anwar did not want viewers to think Tut had brown skin). This was the reason he gave for the edit which is blatant POV bias. I have placed both the Golden Mask and the painted bust in the gallery and leaving behind only the reconstruction for that section since it is the true source of the controversy. AncientObserver (talk) 19:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that all three images should be shown in the Tut section, so as to allow readers to compare the actual Egyptian material with the reconstruction and see for themselves why the fuss. May I also ask why do you not rather make these changes on the Draft page? Wdford (talk) 19:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Where is the draft page again? AncientObserver (talk) 20:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The draft page is at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy/Draft I have carried over some of your good edits already, but some of the underlying material is quite different on the other page. Wdford (talk) 20:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits to Language Section

Wdford, I noticed this edit by you on the draft page:

Roger Blench notes that Ehret failed to consider existing scholarship, such as reconstructions of Proto-Central and Proto-Eastern Sudanic, and provided no evidence whatsoever for his classification, which has not been followed by other researchers.

Could you please explain the context of this comment and its relevance to Ehret's research on Ancient Egyptian language? AncientObserver (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Also what is the relevance of pointing out that Nubian is a Nilo-Saharan language? That has nothing to do with Ancient Egypt, no more than pointing out that Greek is an Indo-European language. AncientObserver (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Man, this is getting to be a big problem as this is obviously a repeated case of WP:SYN and other kinds of Original Research. What do you guys think about filing a complaint? There are plenty of examples already documented in the history and his contributions, as it concerns this article. This being a blatant example in order to marginalize someone with criticism that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this article. Such edits of his consistently show this to be a pattern. He's also been warned many times and others have tried to work with him to no avail.Taharqa (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Wdford has shown a willingness to work with other editors to improve this article as well as help out newcomers like myself so I don't recommend filing a complaint. I'd just like an explanation for these specific edits. I understand that he is trying to maintain balance however the first example I mentioned doesn't seem relevant to Ehret research on this topic and the Nubian comment isn't relevant at all. AncientObserver (talk) 22:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Nubian is Nilo-Saharan and not Afro-Asiatic, but this has to be made relevant to controversy at hand. Despite different language families, the Nubians and Egyptians were tightly connected. The Nubians had their own parallel civilization and writing system such as in Kush and Meroe. Because of lack of knowledge of Nilo-Saharan, linguists have not managed to decipher the Meroitic language from Meroitic script. Wapondaponda (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

All very true Wapondaponda. The point is that it is not relevant to this controversy. Not as far as I can see. AncientObserver (talk) 22:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

It is current stated in the “Biogeographic Origin Based on Cultural Data” section that the Egyptian culture was very closely related to the Nubian culture in many respects. However it has already been noted among editors that a common language is a crucial aspect of determining such as relationship – hence the existence of the “Language” section in the first place. I thus thought it important to also state that the Nubian language and the Egyptian language are actually completely different, in case anybody reading the “Biogeographic Origin” didn’t know that and assumed them to be related. I don’t see any WP:Synth here - the facts are direct, and the link to the controversy equally so. It surprises me that so simple and relevant a sentence should lead to such outrage?

Perhaps we should also amend the “Biogeographic Origin” section as well?

I included Blench’s comment on Ehret to inform that Ehret is not considered to be a fully reliable source by his peers, and that his conclusions are not necessarily part of a broader consensus. This standard has been applied to many sources in this article, including even giants like Petrie, never mind early 20th century scholars where it was added that other aspects of their work have since been superseded or that they divided races into groups using outdated terminology, so I thought it might be a standard practice. I am happy to reword it, but since Ehret is quoted extensively in this section I thought it important. Is this not what the draft page is for?

I for one am not outraged, I only asked for an explanation. The Nubian comment does seem out of place. I understand the point you are trying to make but the biogeographic origins section is in relation to Ancient Egyptians, not Nubians. The fact that Nubian is a Nilo-Saharan language really isn't relevant to the linguistic affinities of Ancient Egyptians. As for Blench's comment since the reference you cited isn't online I asked you the context because the sentence you wrote is rather vague. What does your reference have to do with Ehret's position on the origins of Afro-Asiatic and its relevance to the origins of the Ancient Egyptians? You can read Christopher Ehret's article that I used as a reference for my comment here. AncientObserver (talk) 22:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Wdford (talk) 22:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Nubia, as the beginning of the Egyptian civilization is Ta Seti or Lower Nubia. Wapondaponda is confusing it with Kush which is futher south. Anyway, about the Egyptian language, there is another theory put forward by Theophile Obenga which rejects the Afro-Asiatic family. Egyptian is not related neither to the Semitic languages nor to the Berber, but to the other African languages including the Nilo-Saharan. They have, according to Théophile Obenga a common ancestor he calls Négro-égyptien. See Fichier:Tableau negro egyptien theophile obenga.png. Others like Cheikh Anta Diop and Aboubacry Moussa Lam think that West African languages derive from the Egyptian. Thus the direct link between those West African Black populations with the ancient Egyptians. Serge Sauneron, at the Cairo Conference of 1974, agreed with Cheikh Anta Diop and Théophile Obenga when he recognized that there are only about 100 common words between the Egyptian language and the the Semitic languages. This surely through borrowings but not from a common ancestor. Serge Sauneron said that there is a need to search for languages related to the Egyptian within the African continent. Serge Sauneron is the other of an Egyptian Grammar. Before him, Alan Gardiner stated quite the same thing in the introductio of his famous Egyptian Grammar. According to Gardiner, until the relationship to the African languages is clarified, Egyptian must stand outside the Semitic group. About the link between the Egyptian and the Berber, Gardiner said that it is a thorny question.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 22:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

@ AncientObserver. OK. In good spirits, like you I will assume good faith, but hopefully this won't be a reoccurring issue. Even though by his statement saying he quoted criticism to show that "Ehret is not a reliable source amongst his peers" is typical of what my complaints consist of concerning such behavior. It seems as if he's trying to use ANY kind of criticism to somehow undermine his views on ancient Egypt. I'm not sure he's aware of the concept of peer review and how this system somehow negates someone's authority and reliability given that Ehret is a premier authority in African linguistics and is cited by most of his said peers.

Anyways, I fail to see how someone DISPUTING his classification of Nilo-Saharan has ANY bearing whatsoever on this article. It's amazing how many times people have to point out these cases of WP:SYN.

@ Luka.. The main point of difference between Ehret and Obenga is classification. They both place the origin of the ancient Egyptian language within Africa's interior as do the vast majority of linguists, though Ehret additionally cites cultural and religious elements inferred from language brought from the horn of Africa to Egypt. I wouldn't object to Obenga's views being cited either. Maybe you can include them.Taharqa (talk) 23:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed Ehret is a premier authority on African linguistics and if Blench's essay is merely a criticism of Ehret's classification of Nilo-Saharan it has nothing to do with this article and should be deleted. I have no problem with adding references that challenge the assertions of other references but the key here is relevance. Also Wdford, I hope you understand the difference between Ehret's map and the one you posted. The map I posted isn't simply a map of African languages or the distribution of the Afro-Asiatic language it is directly related to linguistic evidence for the biogeographic origins of the Ancient Egyptians. If someone else has another theory by all means add the references but Ehret is a leading authority on both African history and linguistics and has created an image to illustrate his argument. AncientObserver (talk) 23:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

This is rich criticism, considering the diligent character assassination that was carried out against the sources I originally quoted in the Craniometry section - Topinard and Isaac Taylor etc. Wdford (talk) 23:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

AncientObserver, I'm not fighting about Ehret - if you feel strongly about it by all means remove the Blench comment. However, if you click on the Ehret map your will see that the robot has once again contested your right to include this image. Unless you sort out the copyright issues ASAP the robot will delete the image automatically. And I did think the alternative map I inserted gave a relevant picture of the Afro-Asiatic language distribution in relation to Kush and Asia etc. Wdford (talk) 23:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up on the robot. I've replaced the image. I'll get the hang of this copyright issue eventually. AncientObserver (talk) 23:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem. I see you got the Ehret map from the wysinger site, which is open-source. If you look at http://wysinger.homestead.com/punt.html, you will find a colour photo of the Queen of Punt - much better than the line drawing we currently have. Could you perhaps follow the same procedure and import that for us too? Wdford (talk) 23:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Sure thing. So how does this work anyway? Once we come to a general consensus the draft is going to become the main article? If that's the case we need to make sure we merge the recent edits from the main article. AncientObserver (talk) 00:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

That's how I understand it - once we have consensus on the draft it gets copied onto the Live page in full. We therefore need to ensure that we have updated the draft with everything that is useful. Wapondaponda is leading this process - could you perhaps clarify how we will make the transition please? Wdford (talk) 01:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Is http://wysinger.homestead.com truly copyright free. I couldn't find anything on the website that indicated so. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I have direct communication with the webmaster. Her website is for educational purposes. The images are free to use. AncientObserver (talk) 09:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Population history

The population history has been reduced to DNA studies, which is only a limited part of the population history. There is skeletal data, ancient texts and materials as well. In essence the population history should address the relationship between predynastic egypt and dynastic egypt as well as the relationship between dynastic egypt and modern egypt. Were, pre, post and dynastic peoples all the same race or are they 3 distinct races. Where did the Egyptians come from, and how did Dynastic Egypt begin. Some of this is mentioned intermittently in the article but nothing coherent. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The DNA studies are only one method used to analyze population biology. The population history section on the main article has some good sources it's just poorly organized as are most of the sections. I agree that there needs to be a linear flow to the population history section.AncientObserver (talk) 09:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Point of the Article

I note that a diligent attempt is being made to hijack this article so as to “prove” that the AE’s were black. In this attempt, material that undermines this POV is being deleted, on the basis that it is “controversial”, that the “controversial” material is being given undue weight, or that the “controversial” material is not directly addressing the topic. However the topic of the article is actually to report the CONTROVERSY, and therefore all material which gives rise to the CONTROVERSY needs to be fully aired. Any material which is not controversial is actually irrelevant, but the “controversial” material is actually the heart of the article and its sole reason for existence. Therefore, once the POV editors have finished their attempted censorship, I will replace all the “controversial” material so as to provide a balanced discussion of the actual CONTROVERSY. Wdford (talk) 11:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this article has made alot of progress in recent days. Looking at the old versions of the article it is clear that the editors merely intended to debunk Afrocentrism rather than provide a fair and balanced account of the racial controversy. The books referenced at the bottom of the page make that plainly obvious. Lefkowitz's research was mainly about correcting historical distortions of Afrocentrists about the Greeks "stealing" their culture from Egypt, not de-Africanizing Egyptian civilization. I do not know what edits you are referring to but I was under the impression that discussion pages were supposed to be about open discussion between editors about the articles so I think being specific about what bothers you would be helpful. This article seems to be about more than addressing the controversy and infact about providing information that attempts to answer the very question about what race the Ancient Egyptians were. AncientObserver (talk) 16:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed - this article has outlived a number of less-than-neutral editors. And yet the POV continues. I am quite happy to also provide the evidence that addresses the various controversial issues, but thusfar only half of the evidence is being allowed in. Evidence that clearly illustrates that the use of anthropometrics is unreliable, gets deleted. Information that clearly illustrates that the AE's travelled to Asia to trade with Punt, gets deleted. Evidence that Nubians and Egyptians did not descend from a common language root, is under attack. These known facts are exactly the reason why the question is controversial rather than straight-forward, and yet they are being suppressed. All that is left is a series of confident assertions from Keita, some supporting assertions from people who happen to agree with him, and the reader is left with a picture that is seemingly clear-cut and obvious when in fact it is anything but. On top of that there is blatant distortion of evidence, such as insisting that comments by Sahel should be placed so as to create the appearance that he was responding to an interview that actually only happened 2 years later, and rewording a comment that an invasion came from the south to read that the Egyptians believed Punt lay to the south - even though the comment said no such thing and the actual evidence shows the AE's knew exactly where Punt was.

However, once you have agreed on the format and have loaded the article with "Keita says" to your satisfaction, I will add back all the other evidence that is actually the basis of the controversy, and together we will have produced a balanced product that answers to the title.

Wdford (talk) 16:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

We should all be working together to create a fair and balanced article that does not push any biased points of view. If editors are fighting each other instead of working towards a common end we are not going to have a balanced product. If there is disagreement it should be talked about here. I haven't paid much attention to the land of punt article and you guys have done alot with the anthropometric article that I am not aware of so I'll look at the edits to get an understanding of what you are talking about. As far as Ahmed Saleh is concerned he disagrees with Hawass in general and Hawass expressed the position that Tut wasn't Black on National TV (CNN). Saleh responded to Hawass and the entire Tut reconstruction controversy on his website Mummyspeaks which Hawass had shut down and then docked the man's pay. You may not like Keita but he is an authority on this subject and has addressed several topics which is why he is constantly referenced throughout the article. We may not always agree but we should all follow Misplaced Pages guidelines and work together to create a fair and balanced article. AncientObserver (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

At the moment"pro-Afrocentric" editors are in the majority, so it does create a problem of neutrality. Since this is a controversy, there are two sides to most of the arguments. We should allow both sides to be presented, not doing so is simply inviting controversy, conflict and edit wars. Ideally if one is confident about the what race the ancient egyptians were, they shouldn't be concerned about any counter arguments in the article.

Currently, the African location of Punt is the mainstream view, even some Egyptologists who don't believe that the Egyptians were Black, believe that Punt was located in Africa, So I agree that Asian theories of Punt should not get much prominence in line with WP:UNDUE.

That Nubian is from a separate language phylum than Egyptian is factual, but has to be made relevant. At present, I don't see any direct assertion that the Egyptians were descended from the Nubians. Afrocentrists suggest that Egyptians were black like Nubians, but how that came to be has not been explained in the article. Certainly the DNA evidence suggests that Egyptians had Nubian admixture and likewise the Nubians had Egyptian admixture. Most studies show that culturally the Egyptians were closest to the Nubians. According to Frank Yurco, "Among the foreigners, the Nubians were closest ethnically to the Egyptians".

Nonetheless, the Egyptians spoke an Afro-asiatic language. In Ethiopia, one can find Omotic, Cushitic and Semitic language families in one country. Chadic languages are found nearby in Chad, but extending to the Central African Republic, Cameroon and Nigeria. The other language family Berber is mostly spoken by North African Caucasoids, but many Tuaregs are black and can be found in Mali, Niger as well as Algeria etc. Outside of Africa, only one branch of Afro-Asiatic is found that is semitic. Numerically Arab speakers make up the bulk of Afro-Asiatic speakers and most arabs are caucasoid. But in determining origins, it is not the number of speakers, but the number of languages that count. And most Afro-Asiatic languages are spoken by Africans. Thus there is a good argument that Ancient Egyptians were derived from an East African source population rather than from Nubia. As previously mentioned, apart from Semitic, there isn't a single language family in Asia that is related to Ancient Egyptian, whereas at least four related language families are found to the south of Egypt.

Haplogroup M1 also links the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. It is found at 9.4% in Egypt, 10% in Nubia and 15.4% in Ethiopia, indicating a direct cline runing from Ethiopia to Egypt. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The Origins of the Debate Section

I think the origins of the debate section is a very important part of the article that could really use some work. I think the earlier version of the section was on the right track by presenting a chronology of the debates origins which shows the reader how the discussions and perception of the Ancient Egyptians' racial background has evolved, however it was incomplete. There was and still is very little information about the theories of early 20th century Egyptologists and Anthropologists who had a major impact on perceptions of the Ancient Egyptians' racial identity. The Hamitic Hypothesis and classification of Ancient Egyptian Civilization (and modern Egyptians themselves) as predominately Caucasian is a very important element of the debate's origin that needs to be addressed. It is this framing of Egyptian civilization that motivated scholars like Cheikh Anta Diop to critical question the status quo. I also think it is important that Afrocentric scholars be included in this section because they have also had a major impact on the topic but not in the way it is framed in the main article. In the main article the Afrocentrism segment reads more like a critique of the discipline and is full of inaccuracies such as saying that the idea that the Greeks "stole" their civilization from Egyptians is a main claim of Afrocentrists which is simply not true. A segment on Afrocentrism should be included but it should be clearly defined what means and what precisely the Afrocentric scholars contributed to the discussion/controversy. The section should have a continuous flow from the beginnings of Egyptology (where speculation about the race of the Egyptians originated) to modern scholarship where experts continue to discuss the biological characteristics and bio-cultural origins of Ancient Egyptians. AncientObserver (talk) 18:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the origins of the debate are important. Some editors had felt that having a long section on the origins was not warranted. I agree that the development of the controversy is important to understanding the modern controversy. I would suggest however, that it should be brief, direct and to the point. Tangential information is likely to cause controversy. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It should be brief however it should also cover the topic adequately. We can create a brief article without long gaps in the history of the debate. AncientObserver (talk) 18:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Land of Punt relevance

Currently the debate over the land of punt has not been sufficiently integrated into the controversy about the race of the Ancient Egyptians. The assumption is that if the Egyptians thought their ancestral homeland was deep in inner Africa, then they presumably would have identified themselves as being of African descent. The same would apply if Punt was in Asia or somewhere else. So maybe it would be more appropriate to change the section heading, to "views of the world" or "egyptian identity" and then have "land of punt" as a subsection. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

While punt is interesting (I’m certainly fascinated), the question becomes sort of redundant, since nowhere does the AEs mention Punt as their ancestral homeland. It’s an interpretation, in my view errornous, interpretation of “Land of the Gods”. The term “Land of the Gods” (or Gods Land) is used for other places than Punt and in Hatshepsut’s account Punt is not even in Gods Land, as she specific mention Puntites as living south of Gods land. The Myrrh-terraces are a region in Gods land. In the tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor (2200 B.C) the sailor does not seem the least interested in reflection upon he just meet a Prince from Punt, his supposedly scared ancestral homeland. Rather he is highly concerned with precious goods, - just like all AE info concerning Punt. One wonders if that is not why its “Gods Land”? Twthmoses (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Some of the sources cited reference Punt as the ancestral home of the AEs. eg, . Wapondaponda (talk) 21:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

No they don’t, because it is not written anywhere by the AEs. The sources you list, simply state it, they do not explain, in any way shape or form, from where they got such info – because it does not exist in itself. It is an interpretation (one possible) of the term “Land of the Gods”. That btw goes for all modern sources; they rarely give any explanation to why Punt somehow is viewed by the AEs as their ancestral home, because they can’t. This even goes for the otherwise esteemed Egyptologist Flinders Petrie who normally does not make far stretching assessments without building on solid evidence. This time he did, and one cannot help wonder if he is the very reason it can circle in books today without being sourced and challenged by the various writers. It should be noted that it is Flinders Petrie that put forward the theory that the Egyptian comes from a technologically superior group of elite foreigners (called the falcon-bearing tribe of Horus by Flinders Petrie) who came originally from Mesopotamia. It is those that landed and settled in Punt invading Egypt and winning, and thus later Egyptians viewed Punt as their ancestral home. That is the theory by Flinders Petrie. While some people easy and without resistance or proof, grab the ancestral part of the Punt part of the theory, they dismissed the rest of the theory. That is not how theories work. You don’t grab what you like and dump the rest, because it does not suit you. Flinders Petrie made the theory because it is he who digged at Naqada (some 2000 graves) and to answer the question you have a couple of lines down, it is he who found “conclusive evidence” of artifacts whose origin was clearly traceable back to Mesopotamia, in both art and technology (Naqada II/III), including both lug-handled and tilted-spout pottery, pear-shaped mace, cylinder seal and lapis lazuli (from Badakshan in Afghanistan). Naqada II is the turning point in pre dynastic Egypt and it is here that the Egyptians seemly and almost instantaneous developed and perfected a complex system of writing. It is also the last period that cultures north and south of the 1. Cataract is at all comparable.Twthmoses (talk) 23:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That may be the case, because sources listing Punt as the ancestral home, or Gods land are scant. However, we still have to go by what is sourced as per wiki guidelines. If there is any sourced information that highlights the points you have raised, then we could use it in the article. Wapondaponda (talk) 23:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I’m not in disagreement with wiki rule, nor do I edit this article. However since a statement of ancestral homeland must be counted as a heavyweight in a “race” origin article, it should be backup by undisputed facts. An entire civilization viewing something as their ancestral home cannot rely on a simple statement, by “someone”. That hardly would pass by in other articles. There must be proof, or surely the writer could not make the statement in the first place.Twthmoses (talk) 00:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. That's how it was a while ago actually.

BTW, the draft is coming along nicely. It looks pretty good. Hopefully we can come to a consensus soon on when to implement it.Taharqa (talk) 19:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the draft is a significant improvement. However, the Punt section needs to be made more relevant as mentioned above. Wdford believes that Meeks and others should have more prominence.

In addition the population history, I think should not be limited to DNA studies, but should include other historical and archeological evidence, detailing what is known about the progression from Neolithic to predynastic to dynastic to post-dynastic and finally to the modern era. The section on the sphinx also needs some cleaning up.

The cultural data could do with some non-African links so that it is more NPOV. Currently all the data in the subsection links egyptian cultural artifacts to sub-saharan Africa. This is sure to raise eyebrows. I have heard of suggestions linking predynastic egyptian pottery to syria or palestine. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

If the archeological and cultural evidence points to an African origin for Egyptian civilization then that's where the evidence points. That doesn't in itself constitute POV. The draft is looking good but I do think certain sections could use more work. AncientObserver (talk) 00:46, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

1) Correction. The cultural data doesn't all link Egypt to sub-Saharan Africa. Read it. It links them right where they are and the adjacent areas in the eastern and western deserts, and it was so stated by one citation that the inhabitants of Nabta Playa likely migrated from more southernly regions. The cultural data is only relevant if it deals with geographic origins of the people which has a direct and implied impact on the perception of "race". The Dynastic Race Theory has had about as much weight as wiki permits given that it is a theory that is basically rejected by nearly all specialists concerned with the subject. Neutrality is a separate issue from mainstream consensus and authority. We can also have a more "neutral" point of view concerning the alien foundation of ancient Egypt, but it lacks merit according to 99.9% of experts. I may see where you're going though Wapondaponda. We can cite people like Hassan et al who proposes some impact from the levant in the peopling of ancient Egypt, but these hypotheses are in tandem with mainly Saharan and Nilotic elements and thus, does not warrant its own sub-section as it is linked within the entire scheme of a peopling scenario, and the ancient Egyptian culture was not rooted in Levantine or Asiatic languages. But maybe we can do that. I'll look up some sources.

2) As far as Meeks in the land of punt section, there isn't really a balanced way to give a minority and disputed interpretation equal weight to a dominant one. Especially if we condense the section to included with in the "Egyptian self-view".

As stated, hopefully when we deal with those two issues, which seem to be the primary point of contention, I'd say the draft is close to being decent enough to implement. However, let's not forget that we have policy guidelines that help us out in assessing our best move.Taharqa (talk) 20:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

This article Foreign contacts of ancient Egypt deals with some of the foreign materials found in Egypt. Wapondaponda (talk) 21:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:Synth re Ahmed Saleh in King Tut section

One editor repeatedly moves around a comment about Ahmed Saleh to make it look like the comment referred to a press conference by Hawass on the race of Tut. In fact this is false. The comments by Hawass happened at a press conference in 2007 - see all references. The criticism by Saleh happened in 2005 - see reference quoted in the article at http://www.guardians.net/hawass/articles/Eternal_Egypt_Is_His_Business.htm. See also http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=3383, which makes it quite clear that the confrontation happened in or before January 2005. These comments were therefore clearly not a response to the press conference of Hawass, which only occurred two years later. The para on Saleh should be placed chronologically to reflect the true picture. Repeated attempts to correct this have been repeatedly reverted by an editor who clearly wants to create the false impression that Saleh was responding to the comments of Hawass in 2007. Wdford (talk) 11:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Wdford. To the contrary, I'd initially placed it where it was relevant and YOU kept moving and rearranging the context. Please explain. It doesn't have to be a response to Hawass' press conference, it was a response to his views. They are noted rivals and suppressing his opinion or pushing it to the background creates a preference for otherwise strictly subjective opinions. As far as yelling WP:Synth at every corner, it's getting worn out to the point where it lacks merit, especially when YOU'RE the one changing the majority of everyone's edits. Remember, wiki has a policy against article ownership..Taharqa (talk) 20:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

As I already explained above about the Saleh-Hawass conflict, Hawass stated in a CNN segment that Tut was not Black back in 2005 before Saleh got involved, so the 2007 statement was only a repeat of his position. That sentence by Saleh says he disagrees with many of Hawass's statements which is the truth. It doesn't matter that he made the comment in 2005. It doesn't read like a response to that interview it reads like a general criticism of Hawass on the subject which is exactly what it is. The comment is fine where it is. AncientObserver (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Hair Morphology

I recommend that a segment be made for hair morphology in the Anthropometric indicators section of the draft page. The hair of Ancient Egyptian mummies has been analyzed by several scholars to assess racial characteristics. We have an entire segment on Ramesses II which speaks primarily about the color of his hair. The texture and color of hair is analyzed by forensic scientists and used as evidence in criminal cases to identify individuals as well as determine the race of the person the hair belonged to. I recommend looking for sources to adequately address this topic. AncientObserver (talk) 20:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Good idea! Last year or two years ago, I don't remember well, there was something about it, if not in article then in the talk page. Still, the issue was raised. Taharqa might know about it and about the sources.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 07:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

This posting at mathilda's blog has a lot of information on Egyptian hair. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's a webpage on Nile Valley Hair that also has alot of resources and info on Ancient Egyptian hair. AncientObserver (talk) 15:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Moving the draft

I think the draft is virtually ready to be incorporated into the main article. Wapondaponda (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I think so to. The overall outline looks fine. We can always make further edits once it becomes the main article. AncientObserver (talk) 05:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I have preliminarily merged the draft into the article. We can continue to work on the draft for important changes. Wapondaponda (talk) 09:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Pictures

The pictures representing the Egyptians and the foreigners are renderings by moderns and not real images as made by the Egyptians. The main article does mention this fact. But the draft version doensn't. If kept the way it is in the draft, it might create polemics.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 07:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Why was Keita's quote on DNA deleted?

Wapondaponda, I'd like to know why you deleted this quote. The reason you gave was that it doesn't directly address the DNA evidence but the purpose of putting it at the beginning of the section is to give people an expert's perspective on the usefulness of DNA studies altogether. I took the time to transcribe the quote myself. I think it is very useful to the section. There are quotes throughout this entire article by experts on other subjects so I see no reason to delete this one. AncientObserver (talk) 03:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

AncientObserver, I removed the following quote:

When the question of race is raised about the Ancient Egyptians or any other African population it has to be understood that the concept of race is not felt to be valid by most modern scientists. The concept of race involved grouping people based on their external and anatomical characteristics. However we know that in Africa, basically the homeland of modern humans, that there is great diversity. So, the question to really ask is whether or not the diversity that we see there, in Africa, is indigenious, is of African origin. At the current moment it's very difficult to talk about the diversity of the ancient population because we don't have a lot of ancient DNA studies. However in terms of physical diversity it can be imagined that the modern diversity to be found in Egypt in terms of craniofacial features, skin color and what have you would likely have been very similar to that found in the past. We do have to acknowledge that at different moments in time, especially in Northern Egypt, various peoples who were non-Egyptian in terms of their ethno-nationality did in fact come into the country. I do think it's possible to look at modern DNA profiles and in essence determine what most likely are due to external influences of more recent time depths vs. more ancient influences perhaps even going back to the paleolithic period.

The main reason is that it is quite long and DNA studies are barely mentioned. I agree that there are many quotes in the article. But in the long run we should try to cut down on quotes. In general quotes should be avoided in wiki articles and should be replaced by summaries. Only when there is a dispute about the interpretation of source do quotes become appropriate as per Misplaced Pages:Proveit#cite_note-1. In addition the portal wikiquote is meant specifically for quotes. See this essay for more information onMisplaced Pages:QuotationsWapondaponda (talk) 04:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Théophile Obenga's theory on the Egyptian language

Wapondaponda, I beg you to avoid provocations calling fringe theory what Obanga said about the Egyptian language. Maybe you don't know who Obanga is on the issue regarding the ancient Egyptians. I am not saying that he is absolutely right against others. But he is an autority having written extensively on ancient Egypt and having discussed successfully on the subject at the Egyptological Cairo Conference of 1974. Get informed if you are ignorant about this Cairo conference. I am going to put back what he said. If you cancel it again, I am going to eliminate systematically your contributions to which I don't agree. Please be careful and respectful if you want to be respected. You don't own this article, neither I. This article is about a controversy, not about what you like.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 12:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Old requests for peer review