Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:41, 30 November 2005

This article was nominated for deletion on October 19, 2005. The result of the discussion was Keep(Moved). An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

I don't understand why you removed the Origins part and the Weight and Size part. They're completely relevent. This page isn't only differences in their firing, it's very vague, as "vs." not only refers to the technological comparison but the historical comparison, as well. I'm going to revert it, but reply and tell me why you'd remove all of that.

the topic is not only vague, but in the end doesnt conclude anything. I'm hoping you havent finish with it yet, otherwise, this is a complete waste of time.

It's not for a conclusion, it's mainly just to give a comparison. Anyway, it is admittedly vague, but it does highlight the main differences in the operation and features of the guns. Other comparisons are really not as useful, and more detail on the individual guns is seen elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. The purpose of this article is to highlight main differences to realize the different qualities of the gun. Anyway, you're a vandal and you could be banned from wikipedia for what you put on the article, so you should learn some wiki-manners.

Requesting that this be cleaned up.

Rewrite.

I have rewritten much of this article because I believe it to be factually inaccurate and potentially biased. I will attempt detail each major change and why I have made it so.

First change: The M14 is NOT simply an M14 modified to full auto. It uses a detachable magazine instead of the fixed magazine fed by clips. The M14 used a shortened 30-06 cartridge, 7.62x51, which duplicates(or nearly so) M1 ball(More information at http://world.guns.ru/assault/as15-e.htm). And the selector switch allowing the operator to use full auto was often locked to semi-auto. I have changed the language accordingly. It is also debatable whether the M16 was designed with the AK-47 in mind as a rival. The AR-10, the first of the AR family, was designed by Eugene Stoner in the '50s and was chambered in the same round as the M14(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m16.htm). I have not changed this part, however.

Second: Perceived bias in the comments "but the M14 was relatively ineffective on the battlefield" and "the superior Soviet design". These comments were deleted in favor of what I contend to be more neutral statements.

Third: Removed reference to barrel length and accuracy. Among firearm enthusiasts and researchers it is generally held that barrel length has little to do with actual accuracy. See http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html and http://www.gunsmoke.com/scot/guns/1022/barrels.html as just a few examples. A longer barrel can increase effective range by increasing velocity but the M16's vaunted accuracy likely comes from other mechanical considerations. Also added information about the weight of the M16A2, which was some two pounds heavier than the M16(A1), removing one of it's prime advantages.

Fourth: Changed "7.62mm bullet" and "5.56mm bullet" to "7.62 cartridge" and "5.56mm cartridge", respectively. A bullet is a component, the bit that is launched down the barrel. A cartridge is the casing, bullet, power, and primer. Other uses of "bullet" in place of cartridge have been corrected.

Fifth: The 7.62x39mm cartridge does not produce more kinetic energy because of the larger caliber, that in and of itself carries no weight in the formula. It is because of the heavier WEIGHT. Changed accordingly.

Sixth: rewrote the entire section on the 5.56mm's wounding ability. ALL long, spitzer rifle rounds tumble, given enough material. This is because the weight of the bullet is not properly balance, so the bullet attempts to correct this. All such rounds will eventually end up with the base first. See http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs13.htm, third article.

Seventh: The statement that the AK-47 was designed to by fully-automatic while the M16 is select fire sounds illogical. They both have a selector switch with safe, semi-automatic, and fully-automatic firing mode. The only difference is the location and order of the switches. The M16's switch is on the left side, above the pistol grip. It can be operated with the thumb(assuming a right handed person) and is safe-semi-full. The AK-47's is on the right side and is a large lever-like affair. It is safe-full-semi. Edited to reflect this. (This can be verified by checking the manuals for the respective weapons, http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/ has several for the M16. http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/ has some for the AK-47)

Eighth: The M16A3, 'A4, and M4 were listed as being full auto. A number of manufacturers offer such rifles in that configuration. But only the M16A3(used by the Navy) and M4A1 come standard with those firing modes. Other models deleted from list. There was also mention of a barrel change-out required. I have never heard nor seen anything about this. There is no reason for this change and every source I know of says the M16A3(at least) is identical to the 'A2, save for the trigger group. Deleted/modified. (Wikipedias own article on the M16 agrees with these assertions)

Ninth: Rewrote almost all of the "reliability" section. "Blowback" is not the correct term for the M16's operating system. A blowback design uses the rearward force of the gasses to operate the mechanism. This method is not practical for 9mm pistols, let alone rifles. The firearm would beat itself to death from the incredible force, not to mention unlocking too soon. The M16 uses a gas operating system, like the AK-47. But the gas in an M16 acts directly upon the bolt carrier, eliminating several parts such as a gas piston, tube, etc. The only problem with such a system is that burnt up carbon and power can more easily clog the system. (See articles on "blowback", "gas operated" and "direct impingement")

Tenth: The M16A2 does NOT use a piston driven gas system. There is no evidence to support this claim anywhere that I may find. A glance at a parts diagram of the M16A2 will show no such piston. Some designs, such as one made by Heckler and Koch, have used piston systems but none that I am aware of have been adopted by the military. Deleted.

Eleventh: Added section on accuracy.

--Fean 21:47, 2005 September 8 (UTC)

Good edit, I agree with all of your points. Though, it was I who wrote most of the initial article (flawed as it may have been), and I don't think that there is much bias about the M14 being a modified M1 (it did share a lot of design elements with the M1; though not identical, these two must be closely related.) As to your remarks on my bias, The M16 was adopted for the reason of replacing the M14, which had to be relaced because it was inadequate against the AK-47. True, saying that the Soviet design was superior sounds very biased out of context, but with a change of vocabulary it can easily be argued very even-handedly. Since the M14 was deemed inadequate against the AK-47 (for what other reason would it have been replaced in the midst of war?), the AK-47 got the reputation of being superior on the battlefield.

Also, about the argument that the AR-15 wasn't designed specifically to counter the AK-47, the AR-10 line of assault rifles wasn't in as wide-scale use as the M1 line of rifles until the M14 clashed with the AK-47. The AR-15, in particular (not the rest of the AR-10 line) was developed as a response to th AK-47 in light of the M14's failure. Jolb 02:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Point taken on the M1/M14 issue. I do agree that an even-handed argument about the supposed superiority of the AK design is possible. I'm not the person for it. However, there are many reasons for replacing a rifle in the midst of a war. Especially a war that seemingly had little direct effect on national security. A small scale(relatively, of course) conflict like Vietnam may only have had an indirect bearing on the small arms development process. Cost of the rifle and ammunition, ease of manufacture, weight, and other myriad factors can just as easily be cited for the replacement of the M14. It could be suggested as a possibility but it might be better to relegate that to the M14 and M16 pages. I still stand by my assertion that the AR line of rifles was not directly made in response to the AK-47, at least not in an easily shown manner. The United States Army Continental Army Command (CONARC) sponsored development of a light weight, .22 caliber rifle in 1957. This was done in light of a Operations Research Office's(ORO) report on casualties, distances, etc.(http://www.ar15.com/content/articles/history/birth.html) It seems to me that the AR-15 was a natural evolution of those ideas, using an operating system originally developed to compete with the M14.

I'm glad to chat with you and hope that discussions like these can help to edify and enlighten. --Fean 09:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

AK origins

The AK-47 was not a completly Russian design and as such i have changed the article to reflect the true origins of the rifle.

The First Line

The AK-47 was NOT derived from the Sturmgewehr 44/MP44. The MP44 inspired the Simonov (an early AK contemporary) and other similar designs.

In reference to the previous:

However, the MP44 did inspire the Soviets to create an intermediate 7.62 round. The Soviets also copied some of the manufacturing methods from the Germans. But saying that the MP44 was directly remade into the AK is false.

About 7.62 versus 5.56

This is the first time I've editted wikipedia, so I hope I've done it correctly. I've fired both the NATO and Russian 7.62mm rounds as well as the 5.56mm, and I wanted to clarify the article about the rounds used in the M16 versus the AK-47. Specifically, a lot of people think of 7.62mm Russian as similar to the 7.62mm NATO and therefore the comparison of AK-47 versus M16 is similar to the M14 versus M16. But, in fact, the 7.62mm Russian cartridge is waaay smaller and less powerful than the 7.62mm NATO (.308) cartridge. If you hold all three cartridges in your hand, it becomes clear right away that that 5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm Russian cartridges are quite similar in size while the 7.62mm NATO is huge. And firing the rounds bares out this comparison. The ammunition fired by the M16 and AK-47 is rather comparable. While the 7.62mm NATO (fired by the M14 and Garand) is obviously much more powerful.

The moral of the story here is that bullet size is what the public pays more attention to, but powder weight is what really matters. For another (more extreme) example of this, look at .22LR versus 5.56mm NATO. Same sized bullet, but dramatically different powder charges. The .22LR is a very weak cartridge. And you can see it easily just comparing the cartridges side by side in your hand. The size of the cartridge as a whole is quite telling, while the size of just the bullet itself is not.

Anyway... hope that helps.

COST

Someone needs to point out how much time and resources were needed to make each weapon and how much they cost in comparison, ie how many dollars did one m-16 cost to make includeing materials and labour and how many dollars did the ak-47 cost includeing materials and labour. Also life expectancy of each weapon ie how many months/years before you needed to get a new one if you treated it good and if you treated it bad. Deng 2005-11-30 05.10 CET