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Military career

I have inserted a Military Infobox into the section of this article covering Roald Dahl's service in the second World War. I have attempted this on several occasions but have had it removed for unknown reasons. To those people, I wish to say that the Military infobox does not detract from Dahl's career as a writer. I felt justified in adding this material as Dahl was a flying ace and thus a notable figure during the war; his service as an MI6 agent is also notable. Futhermore, Dahl finished as a Wing Commander-a high rank, and I have seen military infoboxes on articles of people whose military careers were undistinguished, such as in the instance of Ronald Reagan.

--Aumnamahashiva (talk) 00:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Let his later noteworthiness as a writer not detract from his additional noteworthiness as a flying ace. rewinn (talk) 23:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

WWII

A recent book by Jennet Conant ISBN-13: 978-0-7432-9458-4 titled "The Irregulars" contains quite a bit of detail on the British spying effort in the United States during WWII and Roald Dahl's part in it. The writing that he was asked to do as part of his propaganda career with the British Security Corporation contributed to his later published works and should be cited. Roald Dahl started important friendships with many American political figures of this period like Charles Marsh, Eleanor Roosevelt, Henry Wallace, Alice Glass, Claire Booth Luce, and David Ogilvy. Also interesting is Dahl's early discussions with Walt Disney about his gremlins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.196.228.226 (talk) 17:00, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Fisher caning

I removed a confused parag:

According to David Hein, in his 2008 book Geoffrey Fisher, Archbishop of Canterbury 1945-1961, "Dahl's biographer, Jeremy Treglown, has pointed out, however, that the incident Dahl describes took place in May 1933, one year after Fisher left Repton." Hein's timeline, however, was incorrect and Fisher's apparent cruelty substantiated.

I think it is supposed to mean that Treglown's timeline was incorrect. Dahl says Fisher left at the end of Dahl's third year at Repton, which would be the 1931–32 academic year. This would tie in with his consecration as bish of Chester on 21 September 1932. However, without clearer statements of what Treglown and Hein say it is better to leave this out for now. --mervyn (talk) 18:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Is Dahl's alleged anti-Semitism notable?

Comment on Literary Review controversy section

Comment by User:92.11.175.121 moved from article. MilborneOne (talk) 19:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

This section has been tagged as a attempted slur by individuals with an agenda and should be either deleted or rewritten. It essentially reads: "man dislikes some people some of the time, and the actions of a government some of the time". Firstly, why it is controversial to hold views different to the views of the defensive proprietors of this section, and secondly, where is the encyclopaedic content?

I don't understand what you're objecting to exactly. As one of the people who worked on the section, I do think it could possibly use improvement, but I certainly don't think it should be deleted. What made Dahl's comments controversial was not that he criticized individual Jews, but that he made explicitly racist remarks about all Jews. Please be specific about what you mean instead of talking in broad generalities. marbeh raglaim (talk) 02:32, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Like the anonymous commentator, I think the entire section is of marginal interest and notability. RD disliked Israel for its bloody foreign policy, and he was wont to confuse Jews with Israelis/Zionists. I don't find any of it "racist", I don't find it unusual, and I do think it is given undue weight in the article. I support drastically shortening or removing it. A RfC may be called for. ► RATEL ◄

I think we're at an impasse. We've been arguing about this for a long time, and I thought we'd reached an agreement, or at least a compromise, on how the section should look. But if we're going to still find fault with it, I decided to look over Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution pages, and I found a Noticeboard dealing with Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts. I posted about what's happening here, and you probably should leave a post there as well, to say your side. Here is the link: marbeh raglaim (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• If anyone has views on this, please comment at the discussion on this issue at the Administrators noticeboard. ► RATEL ◄ 15:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Is Roald Dahl's alleged anti-Semitism notable

Roald Dahl, an author of childrens' books, allegedly made some anti-Israeli and anti-Jew remarks during his life, according to the author of an unauthorised biography. Is this notable enough for inclusion in Dahl's biography, and if notable, what sort of weight should it be given? It currently runs to 3 paragraphs (~17 sentences). ► RATEL ◄ 16:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Previously involved editors

Comment by Ratel

Please see my comments in section above. ► RATEL ◄ 16:04, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Just adding that Dahl was accused in his life, to quote someone else, of being "a racist, a misogynist, a sadist, an anti-semite, a colonialist, a snob, a homophobe, a brown-nose, a curmudgeon, and a downright all-round reactionary." Why we have a whole section devoted to one of these accusations is what baffles me. ► RATEL ◄ 06:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• We're getting no interest in this issue, so I've edited in a compromise that I think actually improves the article. As it stood, the section called Literary Review controversy was actually a coatracked compendium of cherry-picked things RD said throughout his life about Israel and Jews, which ran to 3 paragraphs (17 sentences) — a grossly overweight addition to the page on an issue of minimal notability and peripheral importance in Dahl's life. After my edit we have only one para. that actually relates to the heading, and encapsulates everything we know about Dahl's attitude to Jews and Israel as well: IOW that it was a confused dislike, based largely on the politics of the ME (I have seen nothing to make me think he disliked Jews per se — all his alleged pronouncements lead back to the ME situation in one way or another). I can live with this edit, although others may find even this is WP:UNDUE since the issue was of such low importance in his life, is not a feature of his work or fame, and it's an area he had no impact on, politically or intellectually, at all. Marbeh, if you agree to this edit we can end the RfC and I'll detag the section. ► RATEL ◄ 01:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Marbehraglaim

Comment by user.

Previously uninvolved editors

Comment by previously-uninvolved Editor FormerIP

I'm a fan of Dahl's books, but know little about his life. I don't think the passage is necessarily unfair on Dahl, since enough information is given to allow the reader to make their own judgement. However, it seems like an extrememly minor incident and I think it should not be given so much space on the page. I certainly don't think it should be given its own section.

One problem is that the extent to which the alleged words might be controversial is extremely unlear. It seems to me that it depends on context. It is plausible that he meant something along the lines: "Israel's actions in Lebanon have had the effect of creating anti-semitism in our society". Such a statement would be a valid opinion, and would neither be anti-semitic nor (necesarily) condone anti-semitism.

It would seem to me highly unlikely, on the other hand, that he meant "we all hate Jews, don't we? They are awful".

At the moment, we do not have a proper context in which to consider his statement, nor does there appear to be any RS which characterises the statement as anti-semitic. In which case, the statement is not very notable. It is just one example of an opinion he held, amongst many others. --FormerIP (talk) 22:29, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

PS I find the comment regarding Hitler odd and slightly offensive, but also not very notable. --FormerIP (talk) 23:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

previously uninvolved editor Blippy

Hi, I must admit I'm quite a Dahl fan too and half expected this to be a lot of old tosh. However I've now found a couple of RS's that claim Dahl was "quite famously, an outspoken and unapologetic anti-Semite" and "a blatant anti-Semite". That same source also quotes Treglow (the biographer in question) and describes him as "Mr. Treglown, a former editor of The Times Literary Supplement" - so certainly not an insignificant person in his own right. So I think it is obvious that the claims need to be in the article, but getting the weight right is the trick, because (again from the NYT article) "In the words of a longtime Dahl family friend: "Almost anything you could say about him would be true. It depended which side he decided to show you."" Perhaps a section on his darker side is warranted? Cheers, Blippy (talk) 07:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is. You show how Treglown's claims of Dahl's antisemitism have propagated themselves in the general news media and present this as ample reason for inclusion in the article of the aforesaid claims. That forms a completely circular argument! Let's stick to the question I asked on the noticebaord and which my opposing editor seems unable to answer, which is: where is the RS that contains reliable proof of antisemitism in Dahl's work? What Dahl said about this or that, whether he disliked homosexuals or Israelis or English muffins, etc., is of tiny notability in a one page potted bio. about this writer, unless it can be shown to have informed his work in some way. ► RATEL ◄ 08:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess my points are i) Treglown seems to be an author with notable credentials (i.e. not just a nutbag out to make a buck off Dahl) ii) two RS's have stated Dahl is anti-semitic (whatever their reason or source/s for doing so is a second order concern) iii) others (cited in the two RS's) have stated that Dahl had a dark side iv) maybe the article here could have a section covering Dahl's reported anti-semiticism and any other 'dark' aspects of his character to help give context and appropriate weight to these things. It may be helpful to consider the case of Arthur C. Clarke, who was accused in a major newspaper of being a paedophile. The case was investigated and rejected by Sri Lankan police, but the matter is still of note and receives some attention on his WP page. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 08:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Forget what's on the Arthur Clarke page (see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). We have a short bio on Dahl. I have reduced the large section on antisemitism to one paragraph now, and this seems to suffice (although others may say even this is too long). If you can add other "dark" material, well sourced, to the Talk page, we could look at starting a section. Dahl apparently was a man who made many odd statements, so it is a possibility. We need to take care not to make the page overweight with negative trivia. He is known, after all, as a much-loved writer. I hear he disliked gay people, and made statements to that effect as well, but again, who cares? It was not a feature of his work and he never materially influenced the debate, and so not notable; so dredging it up into a small biography is POV pushing and agenda driven. ► RATEL ◄ 13:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

previously-involved ip editor (coming from the Geopolitical ethnic and religious conflicts noticeboard)

Not much to add to what the two other previously uninvolved editors said. There are reliable source alleging that Roald Dahl was antisemitic (Examples from books: Bernie Raskas, "Seasons of the Mind" page 154 / Richard Abel, "Speaking Respect, Respecting Speech" page 31), and the fact that these allegations and the biography have been discussed in newspaper such as the Washington Post, the New York Times or the Independent makes these allegations notable. Given the weight of these allegations one paragraph seems a bit short, in particular given that several aspects are not even discussed, see this revision. I find it strange that this section has been removed while the debate is still going on. Ideally these section should not be separate, but be incorporated in the general biography section. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You have to be kidding me, right? Your sources are a book by a Rabbi who mentions Dahl in passing, once, in one sentence? Are you pulling my leg? And the other source is just as pathetic, with Dahl called "openly anti-Semitic" in a throw away line? This is no proof at all, and in fact underlines my drive to balance the page by removing the bulk of this attempt to smear Dahl. ► RATEL ◄ 16:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Ratel, this whole thing is overblown. There is a difference between making an unpleasant remark about Jews or Israel and being anti-semitic. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thats why we dont say that he is anti-semitic. The point here is that he has been accussed of being anti-semitic, and that is a notable aspect of his biography. Pantherskin (talk) 16:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

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