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Germany

The article states: "Polanski has avoided visits to countries that are likely to extradite him (such as the UK) and mostly travels and works in France, Germany, the Czech Republic and Poland."

Doesn't Germany have an extradition agreement with the United States? I would find it very strange if Germany didn't have such an agreement with the U.S. considering the very close relationship between the two countries over the last 60 years. Germany most likely would extradite a foreign sex offender (a convicted pedophile) if requested by U.S. authorities. Urban XII (talk) 14:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Germany and the U.S. do indeed have an extradition treaty, which was negotiated and signed in 1978. They also have a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) of 2003. The exceptions seem to be the fact that Germany will not extradite persons who may receive the death penalty in the United States, and will not extradite people over "political" offenses. Unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor hardly carries the death penalty, nor is it a political offense. Urban XII (talk) 14:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It's only speculation, but there's also the question of a statute of limitations. Germany might well be reluctant to extradite someone who couldn't be tried in Germany for the same offences. Physchim62 (talk) 01:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Statutes of limitations don't apply in this case, since he plead guilty but fled the country before he was sentenced.

Please leave the BLP sources flag in

Checking the article will reveal many sourceless statements. These cause problems as he is such a controversial figure. Some have CN flags. Others do not, as littering an article with CN flags is generally counterproductive. Checking the movie sections will show virtually no sources and a great deal of OR. Some of the movie articles themselves cite no sources whatever. Please note that the flag itself and the comment at it are a discussed work added above. Please join the discussion if there are objections.- Sinneed 17:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 17:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Copying this here so it will be easy to restore

{{BLP sources|date=April 2009}} <!-- This biography of a living person (]) is severely under-sourced, and needs many inline citations (]). Thus, it carries an article flag cautioning about ]. Please do not remove this flag until the text has been thoroughly and reliably sourced (]). This flag has little to do with any fact-flags which may be scattered through the text, but is a warning about the article as a whole. Please seek ] before killing the flag.--> {{Redirect|Polanski}}

It just keeps being killed. I don't think putting it back in today is worth the effort. I will readd it tomorrow. Anyone who disagrees please feel free to restore it. I am at 3 reverts, and don't feel confident that this is vandalism... no edit summaries. *shrug*- Sinneed 18:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

minor edit: spurious religious reference

The assertion that RP "is a Jewish Polish-French film director" appears incorrect. Judaism is a religion not an ethnicity or nationality. Reportedly RP self-identified as Catholic from 10yo to 15yo (see Note16). In an interview RP stated, "I can only look at religion with a certain dose of irony, because I'm not a religious person. And of course, sex and religion, they're always connected. Each religion has some sort of hangup about sex." It appears RP does not identify with any religion (i.e., he seems to be atheist or perhaps agnostic). Additionally, American film directors who celebrate Christmas and are thus nominally Christian are not generally referred to as "Christian American" film directors. Groovymaster (talk)

REF: http://www.popmatters.com/film/interviews/polanski-roman.shtml

Sex offence conviction

Polanski is a rapist. I don't care if every one of his films won him an Oscar. The fact that he is a rapist outweighs anything he has achieved in his cinematic career. The fact of his being a rapist ought to be the very first thing that the reader sees in the article. It is also important to highlight that he is a Polish-French rapist. Poland and France have for over three decades connived in his avoiding facing justice for his crime. Even today the foreign ministers of Poland and France have been hinting that they may attempt to obstruct the course of justice. If I were a Pole or a Frenchman I'd burn my passport. Hurrah for Switzerland. What do I want for Christmas? Polanski in an orange jumpsuit on the front page of The Times.--90.206.67.11 (talk) 19:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Does not the US has also the choice not to extrade one of its citizen and usually do so ? I could also say that if I were a US citizen, I would burn my passport. Such a comment is completely stupid. The American Government had the choice to ask for a judegment in France.

The crime maybe was "unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor" or statutory rape. One seduction doesn't make someone a rapist, sometimes people is just asking for it. Anyway your sentence has become world famous. I can't believe it. --77.103.190.238 (talk) 22:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The Justice sytem will decide, if he's a rapist or not. PS: A paternity suit should be held, he's a carbon coppy of Danny Kaye. -- GoodDay (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to throw my hat in and opine Roman Polanski is still primarily known for his films. If he wasn't known for his films, this 1977 incident wouldn't even be covered on Misplaced Pages. Obviously, the 1977 incident had a huge impact on his life and it belongs in the article, but definitely not in the lead sentence. Polanski is also known for being the husband of someone murdered by the Manson group, but that is not in the opening sentence because it is not what he is MOST KNOWN FOR.

Whilst he is a filmmaker first, the statutory rape he was convicted of, and related events, are certainly important enough to be mentioned in the lede, due to being a very important part of his life. WP addict 0 (talk) 23:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

He, as an almost fifty-year old, drugged, raped and sodomized a 13 year old girl. I'd say he's at least as well-known as a rapist as he's known for his films. The fact that he makes films, doesn't overshadow or excuse the brutal rape of a defenseless child. He'll be remembered both as a rapist and a former film maker. Urban XII (talk) 23:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

That's for the courts to decide, not Misplaced Pages. Alan (talk) 23:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

← Actually the courts have decided the matter, they accepted his guilty plea. That said, his criminal misdoings need to be viewed in their proper context, Urban's take on this is a little over-the-top. Crafty (talk) 23:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

He was convicted of statutory rape, but not of sodomy. In any case, both his filmmaking and sexual offending should be in the lede. The films should be mentioned first, as he became notable through his career years before his attack on Geimer. WP addict 0 (talk) 23:35, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Point taken about the sodomy matter and I agree with you about including his criminal offence(s) in the lede. Crafty (talk) 23:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

"Unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor" was the charge he pleaded guilty to. We simply shouldn't be calling him a rapist, not even on a talk page, we should let the facts speak for themselves. Physchim62 (talk) 23:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

So it's "pedophile", then? Crafty (talk) 23:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Should Category:Pedophilia be added? WP addict 0 (talk) 00:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, let's not go crazy about this. Rather we should see what consensus develops on that question. Whilst the verifiable facts of Polanski's life shouldn't be left out of the article, we should also proceed with some caution. WP:BLP and all that. Crafty (talk) 00:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

More correctly he's a convicted pedophile. Interestingly, the day before he was arrested in Switzerland - Poland approved the forced castration of people convicted of precisely the crime he was accused of - forcible sex with a 13 year old (although the law covers children under 15) against her will and drugging her without her knowledge in order to take the use of her 13 year old child's body for his sexual gratification.

← . . .and his offences were not committed in Poland. Yes, I know he Polish/French by birth but let's not cloud this issue with irrelevancies. I think the best way forward here is to edit with great care and not let our various points of view trump good judgment. Crafty (talk) 00:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

'Protected by France's limited extradition with the US' - why would France not extradite Polanski? Is there a Misplaced Pages article that explains this limitation that could be linked to in this article? Under what circumstances could an extradition between those two countries take place? WP addict 0 (talk) 00:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

No one can be convicted of pedophilia. The crime was "unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor" or statutory rape. One seduction doesn't make someone a pedophile - it's a pathology in which the sexual fixation is on underaged people.   Will Beback  talk  00:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The agreement France has with the US allows France to refuse to extradite it's citizens to the US. The trade off is that the US can request French authorities to prosecute the matter in the French courts. I suspect the agreement is more about returning non-French citizens to the US. Crafty (talk) 10:50 am, Today (UTC+10)

Because he had got French citizenship, that's why. Urban XII (talk) 00:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

He had French citizenship at the time of the offences. France doesn't extradite its own citizens, although they can be tried in French courts for crimes committed abroad. Physchim62 (talk) 01:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

France never allows any French citizen to be extradited? If that is the case, and he could have been tried in France instead, did the US ever request his trial in France? WP addict 0 (talk) 01:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

No, they didn't (if one looks at the hypocritical and ridiculous reactions by French politicians to his arrest, one understands why). Urban XII (talk) 02:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

←Will's comment has the goods on this issue. "Pedophile" has a particular meaning and before whacking that label on this article and by extension Mr Polanski it's best that we achieve a clear consensus. Yes he has a conviction for "unlawful sex with a minor" but does this justify labelling him a pedophile? Apparently there is reason to think it doesn't. It's also important to note that the objective here is not ensure that Polanski gets what some people think he deserves (Urban XII why am I looking at you?) but rather reflecting what the verifiable sources have to say about him and his history. Crafty (talk) 01:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Why should I know? Urban XII (talk) 01:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Linguistic issue

Why are the names of the Swiss courts translated in German? It seems a little bit pedantic, and as far as Swiss languages are concerned, there is no reason to quote them only in German (and not in Italian, French or Romanch). I think that giving only the English name is a better solution. The hyperlink allows anyone to learn the German/French/Italian/Romanch name if they want to.

They are not "translated". German is the main language of the Swiss judicial system. The websites use the German name as their adress and main language (http://www.bstger.ch/ and http://www.bger.ch/ ), they aren't even available in Romansh. It is helpful to include the (main) official names of the courts as well as their English translations, especially as this article is also used as a source of information for speakers of languages other than English, where the use of an English translation would be inappropriate. Urban XII (talk) 00:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I am a Swiss lawyer, and there is no "main language of the Swiss judicial system". Swiss federal courts work in all four official languages depending on the circumstances of the case, and have four co-equal "official" names in the four languages. I agree that giving only the English names is most convenient.  Sandstein  07:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Dispute regarding how to describe incident of the Child Rape

This constitutes a deliberate attempt to distort the truth. Fact is: Roman Polanski drugged a 13-year old girl, and "despite her protests, he performed oral sex, intercourse and sodomy on her". This was already stated in sources cited in the paragraph, but here are three more sources. I'm going to reinstate this in a couple of hours if somebody else haven't done it by then. I'm very concerned by the attempt to remove this information from the article. After all, this is what the whole case is about. Urban XII (talk) 01:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Urban, perhaps you should take the time to read this: WP:TRUTH. Crafty (talk) 01:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you should take the time to read it? So far, I haven't seen any sources from you. On the other hand, the testimony by the victim that "despite her protests, he performed oral sex, intercourse and sodomy on her" (as the Associated Press put it) has a lot of sources, including sources that are already included in the article. I'm afraid it's very difficult to interpret the recent removal of this information as anything else than disruption/obstruction. The wording "various sexual acts", without mentioning which acts, serves as a euphemism. Urban XII (talk) 01:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Meh, I have better things to do than argue with a bug-eyed zealot about this stuff. Crafty (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

A reliable source states she said he performed specific acts on her. It is relevant to this article, so it should state that she said that. WP addict 0 (talk) 01:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think there is consensus to include this information then. It is sourced and highly relevant. The only person who attempts to remove it is unable to present any arguments or sources to back his case, only making personal attacks. Urban XII (talk) 01:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The only person who attempts to remove it? I've counted at least three editors just tonight. As it is, Urban XII is up against his/her WP:3RR limit, so can't put it back without facing a 24 hour-block. from editing. Physchim62 (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I still don't see any arguments or counter-sources, so the consensus is to include the information and the removal constitutes vandalism. Urban XII (talk) 02:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:TRUTH states that irrelevant info should not be added, even if true and verified. This info is verified and what she said he did is very relevant to the article. WP addict 0 (talk) 02:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that the lurid details are relevant. What is relevant is that she was thirteen and he was forty-four. You might also consider it relevant that "Samantha Geimer filed to have the charges against Polanski dismissed from court, saying that decades of publicity as well as the prosecutor's focus on lurid details continues to traumatize her and her family" (the quote is from the article). Physchim62 (talk) 02:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

We report the truth. What he did to her is the core of the whole case, we cannot censor it. A brief description like the one used by the Associated Press is not "lurid details", but a brief, necessary explanation of what the whole thing is about. If he hadn't raped her, he wouldn't be in detention in Switzerland as we speak. The information is widely reported (and has been so for decades) and well sourced, there is absolutely no valid reason to remove it. Urban XII (talk) 02:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think whats pertinent here is not necasarily the details of the specific acts performed - but rather that they were performed to the girl's protest. This information is very relevant as it draws the distinction between consensual sex acts and rape. It is widely verifiable that she claims to have protested the actions as they were occuring; it can be found in many news sources and the actual court reports. Failure to include this very pertinent information is not justified under the policies currently being cited 66.68.111.71 (talk) 04:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

So how best to describe a 50 year old that drugs 13 year old children and then forces his penis into their anus, vagina and mouth against their will? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

I think Physchim62 said it best: the lurid details of the sex acts are irrelevant to the case and clearly do harm to Ms. Geimer, who has clearly and unequivocally stated that she wishes to have nothing further to do with the case due specifically to the effects of the decades of publicity and focus on the lurid details (see Physchim's quote above) on her family. This is a BLP concern, as it clearly does harm to Ms. Geimer. Need I remind anyone that she was the victim? I'm not concerned about the details in and of themselves, but rather their effects on Ms. Geimer and her family. There is more than WP:CENSOR at play here; per WP:BLP, Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid paper; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. The possibility of harm to living subjects is one of the important factors to be considered when exercising editorial judgment. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 10:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

In serious cases like this, considering the fact that Polanski is now in prison, mainly gets attention because of this case and a large part of the article deals with it, we cannot downplay or obscure the very core of the case. It has been reported by reliable sources like the Associated Press, we need to mention it. However, it's not important to mention the name of the victim (like you do). I would have no problem with removing the name of the victim completely, we don't need to know her name to understand the impact of Polanski's crime. But we cannot describe what Polanski did without describing it, "various sexual acts" is not an adequate description of his crimes, we're talking about the worst sexual crimes possible against a child, but by using such a euphemism, we lead people to believe it was maybe only harmless. Urban XII (talk) 13:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This is where we disagree. Describing the act itself as "various sexual acts" is an adequate description to suit our purposes. WP is an encyclopedia not a tabloid, newspaper or court document. We must consider the potential harm done to living people involved in the incident. You can trust that I am the last to tout the BLP horn, and I certainly don't hide other motives behind a BLP argument. I also assure you that I am quite sympathetic to your moral position, but WP is not the forum to make that stand. It is an encyclopedia, and we have a responsibility to keep it free of libel and respect the privacy of non-public persons. The irony here is that the people most harmed by recounting these details are the victim, now an adult, and her family, not Polanski. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 14:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Then clearly, the encyclopedic fact that Polanski is a convicted rapist, child molester or pedophile needs to be stated clearly - or we can spell it out. The only reason we discuss the detail is to balance out the playing down of the facts of the matter. We can describe the notable event as one of aggressor, convicted rapist, child molester, or pedophile. All of which are supportable and referenced facts. Or we can obscure the role of Polanski, in which case in order to properly record the event we emphasize the act - one in which a 13 year old is unknowingly drugged with Quaalude's while tearfully resisting, stating clearly and without any doubt, "I said, ‘No, no. I don’t want to go in there. No, I don’t want to do this. No!" before a roughly 50 year old man, one who lied to her from a position of power, forced his penis into the mouth, anus and vagina of a child. But we cannot ignore the deep significant notability of the event. We will record it - and it will be stated clearly. How we do it is the only question.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

Child molester needs to be in the lead

It's POV to describe him only as a "a Polish-French film director, producer, writer and actor" in the first sentence. He's just as well known as a child molester as he's known as a writer these days. A large portion of the article deals with his sexual abuse. Per MOS, it's necessary to include his child molestation in the first paragraph. I suggest this wording: Polanski is a Polish-French film director, producer, writer, actor and convicted child molester.

A comparable article, for reference: Christopher Paul Neil. Urban XII (talk) 03:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, there should be reference to the crime the subject pled guilty to in the lead. --Mysidia (talk)

It does. It states "In 1977, he was arrested in Los Angeles and pleaded guilty to "unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor..." in the second paragraph of the lead section. - Bilby (talk) 05:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

However, there should also be a reference to it in the first sentence. The first sentence is intended to be a summary of the whole article. A significant part of the article deals with the sex offense, and he is at least as much a child molester as he is a writer. Urban XII (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The phrasing "convicted child molester" is far from neutral and probably somewhat untrue (see section below). I also think mentioning this in the first sentence gives that event too much weight. Look at Chris Brown (entertainer) as an example. — Jake Wartenberg 05:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between an almost 50-year old drugging, raping and sodomizing a 13-year old child (in most societies considered one of the most serious crimes), and being violent to your (adult) girlfriend. Besides, Chris Brown's crimes shouldn't be downplayed the way they are either. Christopher Paul Neil is a far more relevant example in this case, as the crimes are more comparable. Urban XII (talk) 05:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It isn't worth comparing these two articles. If nothing else, Christopher Paul Neil is notable only in relation to his crimes. Polanski is notable for far more. - Bilby (talk) 05:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The fact that he also makes films doesn't make his crimes less important. A lead sentence like "Polanski is a Polish-French film director, producer, writer, actor and convicted child molester" gives his film career due prominence, it's mentioned first, along with other artistic activities. His conviction accounts for only 20 % of the sentence and is the last of five different things mentioned (for comparison, there are four sections in the article dealing with his sex crimes). Urban XII (talk) 05:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) True, but at the moment 50% of the lead section is related to his conviction and arrest. If you're talking percentages, the lead is heavily biased towards his arrest and conviction when taken as a whole. No one reading that lead would have any doubt about his actions. Personally, I have no major problems with the current weight, but I also don't see a convincing reason - given how it is now - to add more. - Bilby (talk) 06:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Urban XII, why do you continually say Polanski was 50 when he was actually 44 at the time? Also, the comparison with Christopher Paul Neil is ludicrous inappropriate. Neil was a serial and prolific predatory sex offender against minors, who is notable for being only that; Polanski has a single conviction for an incident that is far from clear-cut, but is primarily notable for being a director, writer, etc. The cases are not remotely comparable. Nick Cooper (talk) 12:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

A better comparison might be to Victor Salva. 69.234.36.199 (talk) 14:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Use of the word "rape" isn't supported by the sources, either. I think there is evidence that the incident was somewhat consensual. — Jake Wartenberg 06:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• 1) Noone har argued for the inclusion of the word rape in the lead sentence
• 2) Your statement that the sexual intercourse was "consensual" is hilarious. See the sources cited at this talk page: "Despite her protests, he performed oral sex, intercourse and sodomy on her" (Associated Press) - after he drugged her with a combination of Champagne and Methaqualone. Or her own words in a 2003 interview (see the article): She recalled in a 2003 interview that she began to feel uncomfortable after he asked her to lie down on a bed, and how she attempted to resist. "I said, ‘No, no. I don’t want to go in there. No, I don’t want to do this. No!", and then I didn’t know what else to do,” she stated. These are the words of a 13-year old that was brutally raped by Roman Polanski. Besides, a 13-year old cannot consent to sexual intercourse in the legal sense, it's (statutory) rape in any case. Urban XII (talk) 06:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I don't think "somewhat consensual" is appropriate. But we should not treat that interview as fact. A recent CNN article describes " plying with champagne and a sliver of a quaalude tablet and performing various sex acts, including intercourse". Also, the New York Post is hardly a neutral source. Statutory rape is not the same thing as rape. — Jake Wartenberg 06:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

A person who commits statutory rape is rapist, well, by legal definition, just in the same way a person who commits negligent homicide is killer. But using such language in the article would definitely be overboard and non-neutral, phrases like convicted molester or sex offender are less provocative wording to use in a lead sentence, because they don't indicate a specific crime (many different types of crimes,including statutory rape, are considered sex offenses or molesting), more importantly, wording like molester/offender doesn't imply a more severe crime, more detail should be included later in the article, but it should never be implied in the article that a conviction of a more severe crime (like rape) occured, than the person was actually convicted of. --Mysidia (talk)

Geimer's own account of the incident, published in the LA Times in 2003 when she was in her late 30s, makes clear that, while she believes Polanski should not be punished any further for the incident, it was nonconsensual. If it had been consensual in any way, she had every reason to say so in 2003 or afterwards. That said, the notion that Polanski is primarily known for this incident is deeply unencyclopedic. Polanski has always been known world-wide primarily as a filmmaker. "Knife in the Water," "Rosemary's Baby," "Repulsion," and "Chinatown," to name only some of his films, had made him world-famous before he ever met Geimer. A properly balanced NPOV article will focus primarily on his contributions as a filmmaker, which should be at the top of the article rather than at the bottom. To do otherwise would be like making the Charlie Chaplin article focus on Chaplin's marriage to Oona O'Neill, or to make the Robert Mitchum article focus on his arrest for marijuana possession. It would show a remarkable lack of encyclopedic neutrality. I don't edit articles myself normally, since I work for the Foundation, but I urge that the article be restored to a balanced version, with appropriate additions regarding Polanski's recent arrest. MikeGodwin (talk) 13:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Polanski is not primarily notable for film's such as "Knife in the Water" or "Repulsion" - not even inside a group of cinophiles. There is no evidence even that "Chinatown" any longer holds any sway within society at large. Polanski is however quite notable for the surreptitious drugging and rape of a child using the ruse of a powerful Director and man of influence. That he is currently more notable as a Director is plausibly true, that he is equally notable for the rape is also arguably true. The events of his life are intertwined - one rarely, perhaps never, finds mention of Polanski without reference to the scandals of his life, although even Tate now recedes with the generational tide as do many of the films. We can merely record the events honestly - we do not create notability, but it is our responsibility to honestly record it. Clearly the leaders of France, Poland, Switzerland and the United States find the pedophilia conviction quite notable and near the top of the International agenda in a way his films never were.

I'm sorry, but this is simply a false statement of fact. I'm 52 years old, and people in my age cohort (and older) recognized Polanski's worldwide fame as a director even before "Chinatown." (And, of course, "Chinatown" cinched his permanent fame.) Polanski became a Hollywood director on the strength of his work in films like "Knife in the Water" and "Repulsion" -- I'm guessing you haven't seen either film. In any case, your own statement here undercuts your assertion -- the reason the officials in France, Poland, Switzerland, and the United States are paying so much attention to this extradition proceeding is precisely because Polanski has been a notable public figure for more than 40 years. It sometimes astonishes me how perverse the reasoning here is -- it is simply unencyclopedic to imagine that Polanski is famous only because of his conviction in the Geimer case. Look, I understand why you feel outraged that Polanski abused a minor -- I do too. But, you know, go to a library and research film studies prior to the Geimer case, and you'll find very many references to Polanski. By the way, "Chinatown" was nominated for 11 Academy Awards, which at the time was regarded as a huge number of nominations, and "Chinatown" has its own Misplaced Pages entry. Nevertheless, given your assessment of Polanski, perhaps you think the "Chinatown" article should be deleted for lack of notability.MikeGodwin (talk) 18:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The average age on Earth is 28. You yourself would have been a child for those films - and unable to legally have seen them on screen. Additionally your gut instincts about how the world views him are mistaken - "Le Figaro," which is solidly Franco-ethnocentric currently has a poll running 72% in favor of Polanski's extradition and prosecution.

"Casablanca"; "Humphrey Bogart"; "Ingrid Bergman". The movie is of course pretty much unknown as are the actors for their acting in this 1942 film. Right? Polanski. Wasn't he the one who had a thing with a minor or so? I think he ones even directed a movie, on Youtube I guess....!

This is of course just a summary of some so called "arguments" presented here.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

All of those are far, far more famous than any of the dozens of directors associated with the group you presented. And none of those dozens of directors were ever at the center of an international manhunt for fleeing a conviction over an incident of the drug-assisted anal rape of a child - A warrant for which is now being discussed publicly by numerous European heads of state and their foreign ministers. There is an inescapable notability here, however inconvenient. ~~

Excuse me, but I didn't say I saw the early films when they were released. I saw them at college film festivals in 1975 and afterwards, when I was older than 18. Why is that even relevant? It may not be obvious to younger folks here like you, but many of us people in our 50s got to see films after their initial cinematic release, due to obscure events you may not be aware of, like "revivals" and "film festivals" and "college film programs." Whether the French favor extradition and prosecution is logically irrelevant to the question of Polanski's notability. I am somewhat in favor of extradition myself. But letting your gut decide notability questions is idiotic. Students of film knew Polanski before the sex-offense case. Today's TELEGRAPH confirms it at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/6240914/The-hunt-for-Roman-Polanski.html : "His first feature-length film, Knife in the Water (1962), made him an international star at the age of 29. After a spell in Paris, he gravitated to Swinging London in the mid-Sixties, where he made two notable films, Repulsion and Cul de Sac." Polanski won the Academy Award for "The Pianist" just a few years ago. By any encyclopedic standard -- as opposed to political tendentiousness -- his notability rests on his worldwide fame for his film work. This POV-pushing by people who don't even sign their contributions here is an embarrassment to Misplaced Pages.MikeGodwin (talk) 19:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

"due to obscure events you may not be aware of, like "revivals" and "film festivals" and "college film programs."'... exactly... obscure events; I wouldn't use "obscure events" to argue for the supposed fame of a subject. Moreover, of course he wouldn't have be known for the incident before it happened. And, by the way, it has not been suggested that those films were unknown to the public, or that they didn't win any awards at a time, or that they weren't notable. On the contrary, what is argued is that as a public figure, he is so infamous regarding this matter, that much of his other work (with some exceptions) is obscure trivia by comparison, basically, most current reliable sources him mention seem to center around these incidents.. He became much more famous and well-known to the public based on the incident, than the films alone had ever made him. --Mysidia (talk)

My use of the term "obscure events" was ironic, Mysidia. The argument that Polanski was not world-famous prior to his arrest is insupportable by citation. The argument that Polanski was world-famous after "Knife in the Water" is supported by citation in this very discussion (see above). Some folks here should be embarrassed by their apparently near-complete lack of knowledge of film history. Unless one takes the position that everyone who flees prosecution or sentencing is notable (a clearly absurd position), Polanski's notability for inclusion in Misplaced Pages *at all* rests on his contribution to film. It is of course obvious that noteworthy aspects of a notable person's personal life be included in an encyclopedic article. But you folks who want to make the article about Polanski essentially about his conviction -- especially those of you who make quite clear that you're not even aware of Polanski's significance as a filmmaker -- should focus on subjects you actually know something about. Misplaced Pages is not served by editors who assume their ignorance of a subject is the normal or preferred state of affairs. MikeGodwin (talk) 13:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is also not served by editors who assume their provincial view of a subject is a static or preferred state of affairs. International affairs commanding the attention of, and statements by, numerous heads of state - and pages of newspaper, magazine's, books rushed into print, hours upon hours of television on every channel in dozens of languages - these are the things that fundamentally effect notability. It is the masses who define. And they are including his actions in this case as they consider his being. His films still exist, and they still loom large - but they quite clearly and significantly share the stage with his rape of a child in 1977, just as they do with his actions on a film set some years earlier.13:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)99.144.255.247 (talk)

This is just going in circles and getting nowhere. The reality, as others have pointed out, is that if you take away his films he would not rate an article, and he would barely rate a mention in the press. Take away the conviction and he would still be one of the most highly regarded directors of the 20th century, more than warranting an article here. His conviction is notable because he's a film director, not the other way around. No one is arguing that the current issues don't deserve coverage. But we don't determine weight in BLPs simply by the amount of coverage occurring for a single event at a single point in time - we have to look at all the material that is available, and at all that the person is known for. - Bilby (talk) 13:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

This POV-pushing by people who don't even sign their contributions here is an embarrassment to Misplaced Pages. In case I haven't told you lately, I love you, Mike. Keegan (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

My point is that any notability he had with the handful of people attending a screening of his films on a college campus pales in comparison to being at the center of a decades long international manhunt now given personal attention by numerous western heads of state. Both his filmmaking and his pedophilia rape conviction are notable - as are other aspects of his existence. All of which belong in the lead. We cannot airbrush out those things that are inconvenient.~~

I object to the term "child molester" but I agree that the incident and his fugitive status should be in the first paragraph at least. Not "involving non-consensual sex with a child he surreptitiously drugged" since he wasn't convicted of that. Pfalstad (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a suggestion for an alternative wording? --Mysidia (talk)

1. "Misplaced Pages locks Polanski page after editing war". Google. Retrieved September 28, 2009.

No, "child molester" should not be in the lead, thanks very much. I've raised the alarm at ANI concerning instability and the potential for legal issues here. I hope it is locked. Tony (talk) 14:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC) A little research shows that an image from Polanski's "Knife in the Water" was featured on the cover of TIME magazine's September 20, 1963 issue, and that the film was nominated for an Oscar for Best Foreign Film. The Misplaced Pages article on "Knife in the Water" refers to comparisons of "Knife in the Water" to "Citizen Kane" as perhaps the best debut film in history of cinema. Somehow I'm guessing that Mysidia didn't cover the same ground in deciding that Polanski's early film work is "obscure."MikeGodwin (talk) 14:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You are confusing the work with the man. It's a common error committed by cinophiles to believe that the notability of a work extends ephemerally encompassing all. It is not so. Films and actors loom large because of their accessibility and wide recognition, it is why Misplaced Pages often finds itself fighting to exclude non-notable actors and films while perversely fighting to include notable directors and screenwriters and those not visually identifiable. More importantly - all of these arguments are but red-herrings.

No one seeks to remove information about his works. But you must recognize that after forests of trees have fallen to write about the rape of a child in multiple languages across continents, endless hours of television on untold channels in every nation on earth and direct comment from heads of state of multiple nations ---- There now exists a profound notability to this event that did not occur before. It exists, like your example of Time Magazine, for the very same reasons - the people have given it their attention and have bestowed upon a level of notability that was never given to his works. Misplaced Pages is not an academic arbiter of culture, and this article is not a review of his works in a vacuum. 14:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk)

Statute of limitations

I'd like to know more about the Statute of limitations (if any) that would apply to RP's case in the US. In France, 30 years is the furthest you can go, short of crimes against humanity. --Jules.LT (talk) 10:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

In California there is no statute of limitation for sex crimes. However, the defendant can only be placed on trial under the law back at the time the crime happened. Urban XII (talk) 11:03, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that this information should be included in the article. In France, that absence of a statute of limitation comes as a shock, hence the outcry. People consider that running away for 30 years is already a punishment. I guess it will be up to the judge to decide how much more punishment he deserves. --Jules.LT (talk) 12:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

statute of limitations only applies when a person hasn't been charged. Rd232 14:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Conviction or plea?

As I understand it, Polanski was never convicted of anything - he simply plead guilty as part of a plea bargain. Yet the article describes this as "conviction" all over the place. Shouldn't this be changed? — Jake Wartenberg 05:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There was an arrest, a plea bargain, a guilty plea, a conviction, and a flight from justice before his sentencing (he was afraid of being sentenced to life in prison). The fact that he wasn't sentenced doesn't change the fact that he pleaded guilty and was convicted of "unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor" (although it is quite clear that it actually was rape by use of drugs, perversion, sodomy, lewd and lascivious act upon a child under 14, and furnishing a controlled substance (methaqualone) to a minor, as he was initially charged with). He is a convicted sex offender, end of discussion. Urban XII (talk) 05:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

In law, a conviction is the verdict that results when a court of law finds a defendant guilty of a crime (see Conviction). So he was not convicted. 193.251.63.39 (talk) 07:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

When an accused pleads guilty to a crime in court, as part of a plea bargain, or otherwise, and the plea gets accepted, the court convicts the person of the crime. The guilty plea is an admission of guilt. It's still up to the court to accept the plea and issue a conviction; for whatever reason, in fact, the judge might reject the guilty plea, then the trial proceeds, based on the media reports, that didn't seem to be the case here, based on the news reports he was convicted... --Mysidia (talk)

We shouldn't use the word "conviction" when it's wrong. We should simply say that he admitted unlawful sexual acts, which is probably not "better" or "worse", but at least is true. Also "clear" facts that are not referenced just shouldn't be mentioned in the article. Lerichard (talk) 07:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

He has been described as convicted by a large number of reliable sources. Urban XII (talk) 13:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Plea agreements in the United States normally result in convictions. Speaking as a lawyer, I can confirm that it is correct to say that Polanski was convicted of "unlawful sexual intercourse," which is probably period legalese for statutory rape under the California law of the time. I am guessing Polanski pled guilty to this charge to forgo the risk of being convicted of some version of rape that included elements of assault.MikeGodwin (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Film works ahead of Personal life

Surely the "film works" section should chronologically be moved ahead of the lengthy "Personal life" section? Polanski is first and foremost notable for his work as film director. Without that, all of "persona life" wouldn't even be in the news. I'd move "film works" ahead myself but the page is locked. All Hallow's (talk) 05:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, I think the personal life should be dealt with first, it's more logical to start with his background ("Polanski was born Rajmund Roman Liebling in Paris, France...") and I think this is the usual order. Urban XII (talk) 05:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The ideal solution would be to integrate both into a single biography 66.68.111.71 (talk) 06:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right about his early life. That's why "Personal life" should be split into "Early life" and "Personal life", with early life being placed before "Film works" and "Personal life" afterwards. That's the way it's done in most articles. All Hallow's (talk) 07:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

All Hallow's has it right. The main body of the article must be about his being a major director. Sure, the 1977 case has a place, including a mention in the lead. But his notability comes from his films, despite Urban's suggestion otherwise.
In support, I offer this topical BBC profile, which gives a section to the 'unlawful sex' incident, but doesn't let it overshadow the description of his life. 58.152.91.163 (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest to break down the personal life section in an Early life section with roughly the text from the beginning until "Polanski's father married Wanda Zajączkowska. He died of cancer in 1984.", next merged in Film works, then the rest of the personal life section, roughly beginning "Polanski's first wife, Barbara Lass (née Barbara Kwiatkowska), starred in When Angels Fall.", in a section after Film works. This would be a better progression, both in terms of timeline and importance imo. Cenarium (talk) 14:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Part of the reason the film bits were last is that they are a giant mash of wp:original research, flagged for a very long time, and no work is being done on them.- Sinneed 01:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Imbalance in the lead?

I see that earlier on this talk page, someone was arguing that the lead of this article doesn't give enough attention to Polanski's child molestation case; conversely, I'm concerned it actually gives it too much weight. While it should be in the lead, and it's why he's in the news at the moment, we should keep a sense of proportion: he's notable as a filmmaker first, and a convicted (?) sex offender second. At the moment, most of the lead is dedicated to the latter.

By comparison, here's how some other biographies of famous people with a major controversy in their lives handle it:

• In Ted Kennedy, the Chappaquiddick incident is mentioned in the lead in one sentence.
• In Chris Brown (entertainer), his conviction for assault is mentioned in the lead in one sentence.
• In Michael Jackson, his allegations of child sexual abuse are mentioned in the lead in one sentence.
• In Gary Glitter, his convictions for child sexual abuse aren't mentioned in the lead at all.

We should aim for something similar here. Please note that I'm not trying to defend Polanski, or justify anything he did: I condemn it as much as anybody. But I just feel the lead of the article is a little unbalanced at the moment. (The article itself also puts the extensive 'personal life' section first, and his film works second, when perhaps it should be the other way around.) Robofish (talk) 13:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope, I'm staunchly against downplaying his sexual abuse even more. Ted Kennedy or Chris Brown are of no relevance here because the crimes are not comparable. A more relevant comparison is Christopher Paul Neil. Also, he's mainly in the news because of his sexual abuse these days and it's unlikely this will change. It is usual to have background/personal life first, his life didn't begin with his film-making. Urban XII (talk) 13:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Fair point. And I have found a counterexample, O. J. Simpson, where two-thirds of the lead is about his murder trial and subsequent conviction for robbery and kidnapping. Perhaps that's a better model here... or perhaps that article suffers slightly from recentism as well. It's always tricky to find exactly the right balance to strike - it varies from one person to another. Robofish (talk) 13:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

What he's in the news for currently is significant, but it isn't everything. We need to have a complete overview historically, not one focused on this once incident because it's in the news, which would violate WP:UNDUE and WP:RECENT. It's in the lead, it already takes up about half of the lead, to say we need to cover it there more or that we are "downplaying" it is puzzling. Gamaliel (talk) 13:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Simpson is a better example. While we certainly should have a look at the entire lead some time when things are more settled (like he's sentenced and serving his sentence in the U.S.), for the time being, the lead has the right balance. It would be wrong to just state he was arrested in Zurich without any explanation. Also, the crimes he committed were very serious, they shouldn't be obscured just because he has made films. Urban XII (talk) 13:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, that's your opinion, but it's not what should reflect the article. It's a matter of neutrality in the point of view, so balancing intervening POVs properly. In the vast majority of biographies on Polanski, this aspect is given way less weight than what is given in the article, and in the totality of reliable sources, only a few discuss this aspect. It appears that US media, and esp. the less reputed or quasi-tabloids, give more weight to this aspect. But we should adopt a global point of view, not being US-centric. So even if US reliable sources would give more weight to this aspect, we should consider worldwide reliable sources, and globally they give much less weight to this aspect. And as said above, we should not being slanted towards recent events, and recent sources will obviously center on this aspect now. And by the way, reliable sources are not only news reports... As of now, the article, and especially the lead, is severely unbalanced, it doesn't reflect a neutral point of view. The comparison with Simpson is utterly bogus, he's known worldwide primarily for his multiple, heavily mediatized convictions, while in comparison, the other aspects of his life are rarely discussed by RS. The comparison with Mickael Jackson is more relevant. I concur with the comment by Mike Godwin (General Counsel for the WMF) in this section. Cenarium (talk) 14:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

That's your opinion, and not what should reflect the article. Besides, the current version is the result of a long process and the closest thing to a compromise we have. I'm not quite happy with it, because I think his sex crimes should be featured in the first sentence as well, and I don't like the downplaying in other places. But currently the lead section is the consensus version agreed on by most users (except for changes to the first sentence, it has been relatively stable). Urban XII (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You confuse opinion on the subject matter and editorial opinion. Contrary to you ("Also, the crimes he committed were very serious, they shouldn't be obscured just because he has made films.", and others), I have given no opinion on the subject matter, only my editorial view. This is evidently not the consensus version, or can you point out this consensus (anyway WP:CCC) ? Most users who commented do not support it, and the only serious discussion on the lead is happening right now in this very section. Cenarium (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS is not about other editors compromising with your point of view, it's about you compromising with their point of view for the benefit of all. That applies to each individual editor. Physchim62 (talk) 14:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I think the article should discuss "notability" first and "notoriety" second. His notability is as a film maker, but this is discussed after the personal life. My preference would be that his biography covers events chronologically and that his personal life (and this includes the murder of Sharon Tate) be placed into the correct timeframe to give it greater context, but putting the personal life sections after the career would be better, in my opinion, than the current structure. As it is, after the lead section, we have 30 paragraphs to read through before any discussion of his career - his reason for notability - and even this is odd because it discusses "Recent work" first. Then after a further 7 paragraphs of "recent work", we reach 1950 and the beginning of his career. So, after the lead, that's 37 paragraphs before we get to the beginning of his career. The structure reinforces the emphasis on his personal life. His career, though discussed in greater depth, is treated as secondary. His personal life would be of no interest to anyone but himself, if he wasn't first notable as a film maker. Without doing a word count, it looks to me that the article is about 75% professional work and 25% personal life, but the lead is roughly 50/50, with his recent arrest, followed by discussion of earlier film work. I agree with the initial comment about balance, and I am as puzzled as Gamaliel by any suggestion that it needs even more coverage in the lead. I don't see "downplaying". I see "amplifying". And like the bulk of comments here, my perception of emphasis is an opinion, but the structure and placement of material is right there for all to see. WP:LEAD advocates summarizing the article, but the balance of the lead does not reflect the balance of the article. Distaste for the alleged actions of Polanski should not become our focus. Rossrs (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The Fatty Arbuckle article contains a brief mention that he was the highest paid star in Hollywood making 3 million dollars a year under contract before WWI - yet nowhere in the article does it highlight any individual film of Arbuckle's. Notability is without opinion, notoriety is an editorial view. That he is currently more notable as a Director is plausibly true, that he is equally notable for the rape is also arguably true. The events of his life are intertwined - one rarely, perhaps never, finds mention of Polanski without reference to the scandals of his life, although even Tate now recedes with the generational tide as do many of the films. We can merely record the events honestly - we do not create notability, but it is our responsibility to honestly record it. Clearly the leaders of France, Poland, Switzerland and the United States find the pedophilia conviction quite notable and near the top of the International agenda in a way his films never were.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

The leaders of France, Poland, Switzerland and the United States are not writing an encyclopedia. We are. Our responsibilities do not include sensationalising our articles with every lurid detail of every scandal. Polanski is FAR more notable for his films than for any one of the scandals in his life, even his proximity to the murder of Sharon Tate. Once the WP:DUST settles, everyone here (okay, almost everyone) will remember that. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 15:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The leaders of France, Poland, Switzerland and the United States are quite notable. That they are not discussing his films, but his conviction for the rape of a child are exceptionally notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

The leaders of France, Poland, Switzerland and the United States are politicians. I strongly doubt that Polanski has been top of their "to do" list. Rossrs (talk) 16:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

"Polanski is FAR more notable for his films"? That's only your opinion. In my opinion, his films are trivial compared to the fact that he is a child molester who drugged, raped and sodomized a 13-year old child. Most other people who commit such crimes are sent to prison for life (Polanski was also risking a life sentence in 1977, which is the reason he fled to France, where pedophilia seems to be accepted). Urban XII (talk) 15:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that some editors are placing greater value on Polanski's films, than on the rape of a young girl? We seem to have strayed from discussion of notability to comparing the value of a man's art against the crime of which he is accused. Of course, his films are trivial if the two are compared, but you are the only making a value comparison. Everyone else is talking about Polanski's notability. I think you see him as a sex offender who makes films. Other editors seem to see him as a filmmaker who committed a sex offence and are more detached in their discussion, though I see nobody attempting to excuse him or even to diminish what he is accused of doing. The manner in which it should be discussed in the article is where it comes down to opinion and bias and all the things that we should strive to rise above. User:Cenarium suggested looking at external reporting and to distinguish between more reputable media and tabloids, and use that as a guide. You dismissed it as opinion, but all you offer is opinion. Why is your opinion worth more? Rossrs (talk) 16:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

My comment was only my response to the personal view held by another editor that "Polanski is FAR more notable for his films". Why is his opinion more worth than mine? Urban XII (talk) 16:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not, and I didn't say it was. But you didn't answer my other question. Never mind. Rossrs (talk) 16:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not an opinion, this is fact. Outside news outlets, many texts and books have been written on Polanski, they were not about this crime and scarecely mentioned it, if at all, but about his cinematographic work and life as director. (try international google books and scholar searches for example). Overall, there are many more news pieces centered on his work in the film industry, even in the US. Cenarium (talk) 17:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I doubt there would be a Misplaced Pages article on Polanski if he was a gas station attendant that raped a 13-year old, even if he fled the country. The whole reason this is news is because he is a famous director that did this crime. The Fatty Arbuckle comparison made above merely makes me think "someone should go edit that article to discuss his acting in more detail since that is the source of his fame". By contrast, if Polanski had never committed this crime there would still be a Misplaced Pages article about him. So I think the intro should mention the rape, but should be primarily focused on his film work (to be clear, having a significant section in the article about the rape perfectly fine by me). On a related note, as Misplaced Pages is a world-wide resource we should have an international perspective on this rather than a U.S. one. Outside of the U.S. I'm sure he is more famous for his film work than this crime. Mantisia (talk) 16:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Not to minimize Polanski's crime, but comparing Polanski to Christopher Paul Neil is just ridiculous. Neil is notable only for being a child molester. Polanski is notable for being a director, not for his crime. Also, in point of fact, Polanski is NOT "a convicted child molester"; we can't call him that. Even though he most likely is a child molester, he pled guilty to a lesser charge. 75.73.198.96 (talk) 16:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

"Unlawful sexual intercource with a minor" is by definition child molestation. Of course we all know it was in reality rape by use of drugs, sodomy, perversion etc. Urban XII (talk) 16:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Unless abundantly cited as such by reliable sources, we should not call him child molester, even if he did commit an act of child molestation. Cenarium (talk) 17:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Time-frame is not as important as what the person is noted for. Personally, I had vaguely known Polanski before, but now that this molestation has come into play, I know a significantly greater amount about that part of his lives than any of his films (which I've watched none of). He is a critically acclaimed film maker, but his true worldwide fame (at the very least his current fame), is his conviction for rape. Also, the victims testimony explicitly states that she said no many times, and had been drugged. That is a fact accepted by the courts and Polanski himself (who agreed by pleading guilty). Sas556 (talk) 16:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yet, the reason you know him now is because of the widespread media coverage. And why did it become a media attention like this? It's not just because he was the criminal, but because he was the well-known filmmaker who got arrested. Do you think an ordinary child molester would receive attention as much as this? KINKKUANANAS 17:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

No, you are quite correct. I can think of no other convicted child molester on the run from the law whose extradition to a western democracy was resisted by heads of state and renowned figures from world of film. It is quite notable in its own right and may in itself merit a section or cleaved article.

Outside the US this aspect of his life is largely unknown and little discussed, though now a little more because of the arrest. In the US, more may know him because of this, but as noted below, we're not interested in Polanski through the US media, but in writing an article with a neutral point of view on him, which can only be achieved by looking at the international level, and outside of news reports. There are countless books and texts on his cinematographic work, he's recognized as one of the most influential and best director of his time by the critics and his peers (won an oscar, btw). It's utterly ridiculous and deeply ignorant to claim his notability is more due to this crime than to his cinematographic work, but why he's notable anyway is not the central point to consider in writing an NPOV article on him. Cenarium (talk) 17:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Lede expansion/redraft

Finding people arguing over what is undoubtedly a crap lede (WP:LEAD - "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article."), I was motivated to draft what I think is a much better one - User:Rd232/Polanskilededraft. What do people think? Rd232 17:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, the "Recent work and honours" section seems clearly misplaced. Rd232 17:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC) fixed now. Rd232 18:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• I think your lead is a much better one. — Jake Wartenberg 17:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
• Support to replace it. Protection is gone now. Cenarium (talk) 17:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Too long for me, but thanks for starting the debate. Physchim62 (talk) 17:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• It seems to be an improvement. Urban XII (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, with those comments and unprotection, I've implemented the expansion and deleted the userspace draft. Rd232 18:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a much stronger lede, but his conviction for "unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor" and his current arrest are both mentioned twice. They need to be mentioned, but only once. Rossrs (talk) 22:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Also "(he was 44 years old at the time)". I don't think it's deliberate, but this emphasises the age disparity unnecessarily and changes the tone of writing from a matter of fact stating of events, to an "aside" that subtly conveys a point of view. It's sufficient to know that he was an adult at the time, and as his birth date is given, stating his age is redundant. Rossrs (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, it needs to be stated. There's a difference between a 19 year old having sex with a 15 year old, and a 44 year old raping a 13 year old. Urban XII (talk) 22:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Why does it need to be stated? What ambiguity is clarified by its inclusion? Everybody reading the article realizes it's not about "a 19 year old having sex with a 15 year old". I'm fully aware that we are not talking about a horny teenager having consensual sex with his underage girlfriend. There's a gigantic difference, but whether Polanski was 24, 34, 44 or 54 the crime would be the same. Is the purpose to enlighten the reader who already knows Polanski's date of birth, or is it an opportunity to convey a "dirty old man" tone? A lot of people feel moral outrage when considering Polanski's case, but when it begins to pervade this article, we have a problem. Rossrs (talk) 09:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Alternative

It reads accurately:

Roman Raymond Polanski (pl. Roman Rajmund Polański) (born August 18, 1933) is a Polish-French film director, producer, writer and actor. Polanski began his career in Poland, and later became a celebrated Academy Award-winning director of both art house and commercial films, making such films as Rosemary's Baby (1968) and Chinatown (1974). Polanski is one of the world's best known contemporary film directors and is widely considered as one of the greatest directors of his time. He is also known for his turbulent and controversial personal life. In 1969, his pregnant wife, Sharon Tate, was murdered by the Manson Family, and in 1977, he was arrested in Los Angeles and pleaded guilty to "unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor", involving non-consensual anal, vaginal, and oral Sex with a 13-year-old girl he surreptitiously fed Quaalude's to while getting her drunk; he subsequently fled the US and is currently a fugitive from US justice, presently under arrest in Switzerland pending extradition proceedings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

I don't think we need these details in the first paragraph, some of them should be included below in the "Sex crime conviction" section. Urban XII (talk) 17:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

How about this then:

Roman Raymond Polanski (pl. Roman Rajmund Polański) (born August 18, 1933) is a Polish-French film director, producer, writer and actor. Polanski began his career in Poland, and later became a celebrated Academy Award-winning director of both art house and commercial films, making such films as Rosemary's Baby (1968) and Chinatown (1974). Polanski is one of the world's best known contemporary film directors and is widely considered as one of the greatest directors of his time. He is also known for his turbulent and controversial personal life. In 1969, his pregnant wife, Sharon Tate, was murdered by the Manson Family, and in 1977, he was arrested in Los Angeles and pleaded guilty to "unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor", involving non-consensual Sex with a child he surreptitiously drugged; he subsequently fled the US and is currently a fugitive from US justice, presently under arrest in Switzerland pending extradition proceedings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

"non-consensual Sex with a child he surreptitiously drugged" is far from neutral wording. I've reverted this addition for now. — Jake Wartenberg 21:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Why do argue it's not neutral? Have you a more neutral way to record the rape of a child?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

I think the current lead we just got consensus for above does a good job as it is. — Jake Wartenberg 21:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It is non-neutral on its face, and I understand that you have an axe to grind, but this is not the place. Also, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Thank you. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 02:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Please explain to me how a dry statement of fact: "non-consensual sex with a child he surreptitiously drugged" Can in any way be construed as non-neutral. Seriously, am I missing something? It's certainly more clinical than "raped a kid after drugging her". How would you have us report the fact? 99.144.255.247 (talk) 03:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Poland

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

close soapboxing distraction

Pity he wasn't arrested in his native country...

Warsaw - Poland's parliament tightened punishments for pedophiles on Friday by approving a law allowing for their chemical castration. The law will make the procedure - which takes away sexual drive - mandatory for pedophiles convicted of raping a close family member or a person under 15 years of age. The treatment will be administered after the pedophile's release from prison. The law was passed in Poland's lower house of parliament, or Sejm, by a vote of 400-1. It still needs approval from the Senate, where it is expected to pass. Pedophiles will also meet with psychiatrists, sexologists and psychologists to improve their health and lower their sexual drive, the Polish Press Agency PAP reported. The law was drafted by the conservative Law and Justice party and an alliance of left-wing parties. It has gained support from Prime Minister Donald Tusk, who called pedophiles "degenerates." Urban XII (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't you mean, pity he didn't commit the crime in Poland? So that he could be castrated? Rossrs (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I only meant it's quite strange that "Polish foreign minister Radosław Sikorski announced he might request clemency for Polanski from U.S. president Barack Obama" while his government move to castrate people (other than Polanski) who commit the exact same offenses. Urban XII (talk) 16:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, but that's not even close to what you said. It's an interesting tangent, but it doesn't help the article. Rossrs (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Urban you are giving credibility to the epitet "bug eyed zealot" above. In view of the fact that there are many reports that Ms. Geimer has no desire to prosecute the subject, nor that he be punished for the offense, can't you find something more socially useful to direct your energies to? For example as I understand it several thousand children a day die of hunger. Lycurgus (talk) 16:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I choose to ignore your comments. Urban XII (talk) 16:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The victim has made no comment on the latest events. The comments you're referring to came in an edited film made for his reputational defense in which he was slated by Harvey Weinstein to do the publicity tour in Europe.

French newspaper Le Figaro polls readers - 70% support extradition to the USA

There is a great deal of talk here regarding a perceived US-centricity to the Polanski arrest in Switzerland. None with any supporting reference. Here then is a Poll, in France, from Le Figaro - a decidedly Franco-ethnocentric institution, in which 70% of the respondents feel that Polanski should be extradited to face justice for his crimes in the US.

This suggests that people in France see the crime as significant - and casts doubt on the numerous claims on this page which are general variants of the thought that 'outside the US this aspect of his life is largely unknown and little discussed' and not notable. It is notable, and as a major international incident putting numerous heads of state on record daily, it is becoming ever more so by the day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk • contribs)

This is a straw poll on LeFigaro.fr. Statistically insignificant - there is absolutely no hint that the polled population is representative of the population. A poll is only meaningful if 1) the sample is large enough 2) the sample is drawn at random from the population or at least drawn representatively 3) the polled population answers truthfully. David.Monniaux (talk) 16:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

• In France, the truth is beginning to appear. There was today a talk by an ex-journalist from Le Monde who was explaining she had to interview Polanski at the Cannes Film Festival right after he fled the US. Entering his luxuous suite in a Cannes palace, she crossed a very young girl. She commented : "She was just a baby" (Qui j'ai vu sortir de sa chambre ? Un bébé, une gamine). His pattern of behaviour seems therefore to have continued after fleeing to France. There is also a TV interview from the same time which is airing these days by French journalist Elkabbach during which he is unrepentant and says with a small smile "I like very young girls". 82.120.247.212 (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Would you be so kind as to add the links to the original? Thanks.

Here is a link for the Elkabbach interview For the Le Monde journalist - at time 47:9

2/3 of Basler Zeitang readers support Swiss Government arrest

Here's a link to LA Times report of both the above mentioned French poll and this Swiss poll.~~

Template:Sex Conviction

The relevant discussion is being buried in minutiae below. Feel free to sort this out. Look people, accurately reporting someone's sworn testimony is neither biased nor libelous. The girl testified that Polanski didn't just 'statutorily rape' her (i.e. consensual sex between an adult and a minor) but rather straight up raped her and sodomized her, all after being told 'no.' That is relevant, non-biased, well sourced information which is part of the public record. Don't try to whitewash Polanski's act behind a euphemism of 'various sexual acts.' The phrasing is neither salacious nor libelous - leave it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.64.185.82 (talk • contribs)

No one disputes that Polanski's conviction and the current issue of his possible extradition to the U.S. should be included in this article. No one. The question is whether the sexual offense is why Polanski is notable. It's not, as older contributors can attest.MikeGodwin (talk) 19:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that he is not notable for the rape?

If by that passive-aggressive construction, you mean "he is notable because of the rape", then no, that's not even close to being true. Rewriting reality as way to justify piling on the undue weight gets noticed, you know. --Calton | Talk 01:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Excessive Vandalism?

It looks like since the page was opened a single non-member editor wrote "is a sicko". It was immediately removed by another non-member editor. I even tried to do it myself but was too slow. So why kick out everyone again? And now members are vandalizing it with impunity

I agree and dropped a note on the protecting editor's talk page. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 19:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Well that was clearly an error, immediately self-reverted. And there were a number of questionable things beyond the "sicko" edit; but I guess I over-reacted. Unprotected for now. BTW, you can get an account here. Rd232 19:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Advertisement by law firm

The law firm and lawyer seem to use the page for advertising themselves. Even a page for the lawyer himself was created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.240.128.75 (talk • contribs)

Don't be silly. Urban XII (talk) 22:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

AFP reports on Misplaced Pages edit war over this article

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g5lvi7XK0ko4DDwgJXpulj7zWIkw

LOL. Note that my suggestion is described as the compromise lead. Urban XII (talk) 23:03, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it's described as a compromise lead, suggested by one (1) editor. Perhaps the implication isn't as you seem to believe. --Calton | Talk 01:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Court Documents

Legal documents regarding the subject and the matters currently being discussed

1977 Grand Jury Minutes - Unsealed July 2009

Here's a link to the Grand Jury Minutes from the Indictment in 1977. It was just recently unsealed by the Judge and obviously contains a great deal of verified, reliable information on this article's subject as the proceedings were a directed investigation of his actions in the matter currently at the heart of the international discussion.~~

Plea Agreement

Here's a link to the plea agreement.

Probation Officers Report: Roman Polanski

Here's a link to the sentencing report.

It's probably a bad idea to use primary sources in a BLP; see WP:SECONDARY. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 04:38, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Court documents are not in and of themselves de facto unacceptable primary sources, as might be in the case of a blog kept by an accused party. This probation report for example is an unimpeachable reliable source as to the original charges, and those that were agreed to in the plea agreement.99.144.255.247 (talk) 12:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The lurid details are unencyclopedic and are of BLP concern

At risk of repeating myself, I have serious WP:BLP concerns about this article. Specifically, the lurid details of the sex acts are irrelevant to this encyclopedia article and clearly do harm to Ms. Geimer, who has clearly and unequivocally stated that she wishes to have nothing further to do with the case, due specifically to the effects of the decades of publicity and focus on the lurid details (see Physchim's quote above) on her family. Need I remind anyone that she was the victim? To those who will undoubtedly cry censorship, I'm not concerned about the details in and of themselves, but rather their effects on Ms. Geimer and her family. This is a BLP concern, as it clearly does harm to Ms. Geimer. She is not a public figure and we must respect her privacy. WP:BLP states (in part): Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid paper; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. The possibility of harm to living subjects is one of the important factors to be considered when exercising editorial judgment. "Subject" here does not refer only to Mr. Polanski, but to any living person who is the subject of any commentary contained within a WP article. I request that the final paragraph under the heading Sex crime conviction (Geimer testified that Polanski gave her... and being asked to stop.) be stricken to protect the privacy of Ms. Geimer, who has publicly requested that the private details be kept private, and in light of the fact that, while they pertain to certain legal documents, they do not pertain to an encyclopedia. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 04:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Dude, he raped a child. Her testimony is a matter of public record. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 04:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't mean we need to resurrect the details here. This is an encyclopedia. We have our own policies, such as WP:NPOV, and editorial guides, such as WP:UNDUE that should be taken into account. Also, your disregard for the stated wishes of the victim of the crime is telling. This talk page is not a forum, and this article is not the place to grind your axe against Polanski. Feel free to write a letter to the editor and send it to all your local newspapers, but at risk of repeating myself, this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper column. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 05:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Even were the NPOV policy to say what you'd like it to say, the WP:PRESERVE policy would have equal standing. However, you are incorrect. The WP:NPOV policy you cite (which includes WP:UNDUE) doesn't allow the removal of content from the encyclopedia on POV grounds per the subsection entitled WP:YESPOV: "the elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy solely on the grounds that it is 'POV'." While I think all of society is a victim when someone goes around drugging and raping children, I don't think a victimization olympics is particularly relevant here; however, the essay WP:HARM, which I support, simply doesn't apply to persons on widely known matters of public record. If he had raped, sodomized and killed her, would you be in here insisting we'd never know what the victim's opinion of our article would be? Good God man. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 06:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

No. If he had killed her, she would not be a living person. And please, save your "Good God man." There is no need to act as if I have done something worthy of ridicule, simply because I disagree with your position. By the way, I do agree that victimization olympics is irrelevant here. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 06:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you really mean to say that you believe WP:HARM does not apply to Ms. Geimer? Why not? And why is inclusion of the details of the rape due weight in this article, in your estimation? Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 07:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:HARM#An_inclusion_test, the information is certainly well known, and as Polanski himself pled guilty rather than face the wrath of a jury on more serious charges, I would submit it is both definitive and factual. Yes, the third prong relates back to WP:UNDUE -- but it's application is to Polanski, our subject, not his victim. In much the same way our article on Bernard Madoff isn't dominated by his perfectly laudable tenure as head of a stock exchange, a little bad behavior goes a long, long way, no matter how embarrassed the adults who were taken in by his scheme might feel about it. It's all well and good for Polanski that he chose a profession which attained him some other notability as a movie director. But if he'd instead opened a laundromat, I suspect we wouldn't be having a discussion about whether the details of his heinous crime somehow unduly overwhelmed the details of his line of work, if that's your contention. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 07:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely with Wilhelm Meis. Lurid details are not necessary for the article. Details about consent and drugging are important, the details of the sex acts are not. Note that WP:HARM is an essay (and of dubious relevance - it's about whether to mention an incident at all in a subject's bio, not what details of incident to include elsewhere), whilst WP:BLP (with respect to the victim in particular) is policy. BLP also requires this to be settled before re-adding. Note also that the details are currently sourced to primary sources and a blog, which does little to support the claim that the details have been widely published. Rd232 07:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to add the Salon ref above as a source as soon as semi-protection is lifted. Nothing in WP:BLP precludes this. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 08:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed ad nauseam (above). As this is the very core of the actual case, what happened must be included. Replacing it with "various sexual acts" gives the impression it was lesser, more harmless crimes, and is unencyclopedic. The claim that they have not been widely published is ridiculous and already refuted at this talk page. I previously suggested just to use the same wording as the Associated Press as far as this issue is concerned. Urban XII (talk) 08:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It's been discussed at length, and if anything the discussion seems to be going against your position. Reducing the specificity doesn't necessarily make it seem "lesser, more harmless crimes". I didn't say the details hadn't been widely published (I don't know), my point was and is that the claim that they have is insufficiently supported at that point in the article. I don't know what wording AP used, but I see no reason why any particular news source on a specific story should determine what appears in an encyclopedia entry on a much wider topic. Rd232 09:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

On the contrarary, there's close to consensus to include this information in some form or the other. Other users want to include even more information on the details, I have reduced them to the short description used by the AP. Btw., I find it interesting that you first attack the article for using primary sources claiming it's not widely published, then when it's updated with a widely published description attacks it for using a widely published description. Urban XII (talk) 09:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

"I find it interesting" that you have no use for such a core Misplaced Pages guideline as Assume Good Faith (or that you can't be bothered to read what I write). I was about to comment that at least the sourcing issue I mentioned doesn't seem an issue any more, and the AP wording is about as unproblematic as it's going to get if we're going to mention those details. PS Don't forget WP:3RR. Rd232 09:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add that I have reverted several users who added a lot more details on ejaculation and so forth. Urban XII (talk) 09:32, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

And no, we're absolutely not going to remove the sex crime conviction paragraph. Also note that forgiveness, sympathy, and identification with one’s attacker are fairly common in sexual assault cases, and these sentiments don’t make sexual assault any less damaging—or any more legal. Polanski isn't prosecuted by his victim, however, but by the people. I have said before: I have no problem with removing the name of the victim, it's not important. But what Polanski did is important, it's what the whole thing is about. It's why he's currently in prison. Urban XII (talk) 09:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You stated that there was a consensus regarding the language, however, looking at the above, there does not appear to be a consensus at all. Eros2250 (talk) 09:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussion before. The AP wording is the closest thing to consensus we get. There's no way we can or should elaborate even more on how he ejaculated in her. The AP wording is short and serves it purpose. Unlike "various sexual acts", it doesn't obscure his crimes. Urban XII (talk) 09:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. Eros2250 (talk) 09:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

With that being said, I will not revert your changes as they currently stand. Also to the above users who want to down play this, keep in mind that Misplaced Pages is not censored. Eros2250 (talk) 09:47, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored, of course it's not, (personal attack removed). Physchim62 (talk) 12:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It is the ultimate POV to downplay the reality of the drug induced rape of a child. But we should remove the name of the child and replace it with the word "victim". No encyclopedic value is served by highlighting her name at the time of attack - nor including her later name. But we fail entirely as an encyclopedic source by misdirecting our readers as to the events. They are what they are - and must be included, not alluded. It is central to our understanding of the event, without it we fail in our mission as a neutral reference. 99.144.255.247 (talk) 12:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Useful ref

Palmer, Brian (2009-09-28). "What's "Unlawful Sexual Intercourse"? And other questions from the Explainer's Roman Polanski roundup". Slate. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 04:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Swiss TV interview

Hello,

I am a journalist for Swiss National TV interested in getting your point of view on this "editing war". Do you agree with the current status of the article? Is the lead balanced? Would you like to intervene but can't? I would be interested in getting your opinions recorded by webcam. If you are open to this, please email me at the two following adresses:

laurent.burkhalter@tsr.ch and laurent_burkhalter@yahoo.com

Thank you

Burkhala (talk) 13:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Caution please

Even before, this article left a lot to be desired in terms of prose and structure. Now I get the distinct impression of a lurid fascination with current events; there's a frantic and disjointed feel to it. This is most unwise; I suggest an independent party be arranged to watch over this article for a few weeks. It is in a shambolic state. Tony (talk) 13:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

History of having relationships with underaged girls?

Polanski had a romantic relationship with Natasha Kinski when she was 15 and he was 46. Doesn't that strike as a bit odd when combined with the fact that this was after the rape conviction of another 13 year old girl? Should this be in any way incorporated into the article? Eros2250 (talk) 14:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

It's well documented, a French editor added this comment earlier:

There was today a talk by an ex-journalist from Le Monde who was explaining she had to interview Polanski at the Cannes Film Festival right after he fled the US. Entering his luxuous suite in a Cannes palace, she crossed a very young girl. She commented : "She was just a baby" (Qui j'ai vu sortir de sa chambre ? Un bébé, une gamine). His pattern of behaviour seems therefore to have continued after fleeing to France. There is also a TV interview from the same time which is airing these days by French journalist Elkabbach during which he is unrepentant and says with a small smile "I like very young girls".

Here is a link for the Elkabbach interview (And here is the link) For the Le Monde journalist - at time 47:9

He is a convicted pedophile, an addition of the tag is standard at this point. As the page is blocked to non-members I'm not able to add it right now.99.144.255.247 (talk) 14:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Creation and Possession of Child Pornography

What is the proper way to discuss his creation and possession of Child Pornography? It's a well documented fact, central to the rape (it was used as the precursor), and notable in its own right - does it require a separate section, or is it to be included in another?99.144.255.247 (talk) 16:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Here are some academic citations that need to be followed up more deeply: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.144.255.247 (talk) 16:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Here are the beginnings of some possible supporting refs from the media:99.144.255.247 (talk) 16:47, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Imprecise claims

"At the same time, many people in France have over the years downplayed the gravity of Polanski's crime because of his immense talent and artistry as a director."

This sentence is copied from a Time article, but it is woefully imprecise. Who are these people who have downplayed that crime? Do they belong to the common citizenry, or to specific subgroups? Do they belong to the artistic Parisian microcosm, which is as representative of France as Hollywood is to the US?

The same Time article likes hyperbolic claims:

"To the French mind, this has made Polanski a combination of Oscar Wilde and Alfred Dreyfus — the victim of systematic persecution,"

What is this so-called "French mind"? There are 61+ million people in France, all with individual opinions. I've never come across anybody thinking of Polanski as Alfred Dreyfus. It is quite unbelievable that, if such opinions were so prevalent in the French mind as the Time article seems to suggest, that I would have heard about them.

My personal experience is that, before this arrest, few people in France had heard of the Polanski conviction, few knew he had French citizenship, few knew he lived in France, and few cared about him. David.Monniaux (talk) 16:47, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You missed "Europeans, meanwhile, are shocked and dismayed that an internationally acclaimed artist could be jailed for such an old offense." Yes, all of them, from Iceland to Portugal, are shocked, shocked that a fugitive might be sent to jail. What junk. Rd232 16:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Prediction

Powerful warring conflicts of interest rule this case (an unfinished movie, the integrity of our judicial system, greedy lawyers, greedy agents, the cost to tax-payers, the excited media, international relations, Swiss and French dignity, money, money, money) and the outcome is easy to predict. Governor Schwartzenegger will be directed by Washington to step up to the plate. He will pardon Polanski for the crime of rape, for the crime of sex with a minor, and for the crime of becoming a fugitive by skipping the country to avoid justice. End of story (except for the sequel, a docudrama on the History Channel.) Then we can all get back to what really matters, i.e. re-writing the article, the future of Misplaced Pages, and the revolution... JohnClarknew (talk) 17:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Samantha Gailey (now Samantha Geimer)

Does anyone know what Samantha Geimer does now, and what her position is on charging RP for the rape offence against her? I know that her mother wanted to drop charges against him.Ivankinsman (talk) 17:19, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

1. "Entertainment | Roman Polanski detained in Zurich". BBC News. Retrieved 2009-09-27.
2. "Polanski joins French elite". 16 December, 1999. Retrieved 25 January 2009. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
3. "Polanski Libel Case Roman Polanski BBC Radio 4's Law in Action was broadcast on Friday, 19 November 2004 at 1600 GMT". BBC. 19 November, 2004. Retrieved 2009-09-14. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
4. "Zurich Film Festival: A tribute to Roman Polanski Night postponed". Retrieved 27 September 2009.
5. "Profile: Tumultuous Polanski always in spotlight". Retrieved 27 September 2009.
6. "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired". Retrieved 25 January 2009.
7. "Entertainment | Roman Polanski detained in Zurich". BBC News. Retrieved 2009-09-27.
8. "Polanski joins French elite". 16 December, 1999. Retrieved 25 January 2009. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
9. "Polanski Libel Case Roman Polanski BBC Radio 4's Law in Action was broadcast on Friday, 19 November 2004 at 1600 GMT". BBC. 19 November, 2004. Retrieved 2009-09-14. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
10. "Zurich Film Festival: A tribute to Roman Polanski Night postponed". Retrieved 27 September 2009.
11. "Profile: Tumultuous Polanski always in spotlight". Retrieved 27 September 2009.
12. "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired". Retrieved 25 January 2009.

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