| Revision as of 05:18, 19 December 2005 editSpinyNorman (talk | contribs)1,550 edits →Graham Hall← Previous edit | Revision as of 05:22, 19 December 2005 edit undoSlimVirgin (talk | contribs)172,064 edits →Graham HallNext edit → | ||
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| :::Grahall Hall cannot be regarded as a credible source, and the police took no action in response to his claims. The incident was reported by one newspaper and the BBC, so we can report his claims, but we can't state them as fact. The most we can say is that he said he was branded. Spiny Norman, please stop editing so aggressively and consider discussing your changes on talk if other editors object to them. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 05:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC) | :::Grahall Hall cannot be regarded as a credible source, and the police took no action in response to his claims. The incident was reported by one newspaper and the BBC, so we can report his claims, but we can't state them as fact. The most we can say is that he said he was branded. Spiny Norman, please stop editing so aggressively and consider discussing your changes on talk if other editors object to them. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 05:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC) | ||
| But that's exactly what I said - I made no statement in the article that claimed he was branded *by* the ALF, I merely said he was branded with the letters "ALF". The brands were photographed and the pictures published in the paper. I assume you don't question the fact of the branding, just the question of who branded him. Right? --] 05:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC) | But that's exactly what I said - I made no statement in the article that claimed he was branded *by* the ALF, I merely said he was branded with the letters "ALF". The brands were photographed and the pictures published in the paper. I assume you don't question the fact of the branding, just the question of who branded him. Right? --] 05:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC) | ||
| :You've written that he was kidnapped, as though that is fact. No one knows what happened to him; and the police found no evidence of a criminal attack, or at least none that they were able to pursue. Therefore, we say "he said he was kidnapped and branded." Why do you object to that? If you do object, we can make it more accurate still: he told police and reporters that he was kidnapped and branded." ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 05:22, 19 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 05:22, 19 December 2005
Incidents
- According to the U.S. Department of Justice, between 1979 and 1993 there were over 313 incidents of break-ins, vandalism, arson and thefts committed in the name of animal rights in the U.S.
All break-ins, etc. done in the name of animal rights were not done by or in the name of the ALF. This seems like a misleading statistic to have in an article on the ALF and not on more general "animal rights movement". DanKeshet 04:04, Sep 25, 2003 (UTC)
ALF spokespersons
I edited this paragraph: "According to media sources, ALF spokespersons refuse to condemn violence by people who have previously acted in the name of the ALF, so long as they attempt no attribution of their violent acts to the ALF. For example, when David Blenkinsop, together with two other men who remain unidentified, severely beat Huntingdon Life Sciences director Brian Cass outside his home with 'staves' or 'pick-axe handles', ALF founder Ronnie Lee said of the victim "He has got off lightly. I have no sympathy for him." The ALF's 'decentralized resistance' model of organisation, with no formal membership or hierarchy, thus acts as a formal 'firebreak' in issues of legal responsibility (or moral accountability).
It said that Ronnie Lee is ALF founder and spokesperson, but I don't think he is a spokesperson, so I removed that, which leaves the paragraph with no reference, as I believe the reference cited only mentions Lee, whose views are known to be extreme and explicit. Does the editor who added this paragraph have a source for the first sentence i.e. a source that refers to recognized ALF spokespersons? SlimVirgin 18:16, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for the steer, SV. I've added a quote from Robin Webb, which is better. The links between all these people are hard to be specific about, for obvious reasons. But I agree it's best to be precise. Adhib 19:04, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Ah. So now the Webb quote turns out to have been a misattribution - thanks for the input, anon! Perhaps you can advise whether or not this BBC quote by 'Tim Daley' is legit? "In a war you have to take up arms and people will get killed, and I can support that kind of action by petrol bombing and bombs under cars, and probably at a later stage, the shooting of vivisectors on their doorsteps. It's a war, and there's no other way you can stop vivisectors.'' Adhib 23:27, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This quote is from a 1980's BBC documentary program, Animal Warfare, in the Brass Tacks series. An mpg of the program is available online if you do a search for it.
An anon IP just inserted this into the intro: "It has been linked to PETA, which has circulated some of its propaganda tapes." I'm not sure it's appopriate for the intro in any event, but if it's to go anywhere in the article, it needs a reference. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 23:34, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Template
I've removed the anarchist template as the ALF is not an anarchist group (or any kind of group): activists claiming actions on behalf of the ALF come from across the political spectrum. Regarding the claimed link to PETA, that still needs a reference or it should probably be removed. SlimVirgin 10:07, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- It does has strong ideological links to anarchism though - it uses the anarchist black circled A logo with the smaller letter L and F inside, and through its use of "propaganda by the deed".
- the template is off, but I agree, anarchism should at least be mentioned. I put it in the see also section.
Reference required
Plain regular ham, you keep adding: "ALF attempts to maintain an image of non-violent action, as the frequent incidents of violence accompanying their actions are always reported by ALF as instigated by their victims." You would need a reference to show that there are frequent incidents of violence committed by ALF activists, and that they claim the violence was initiated by their victims. Without a reference, it can't be allowed to stay. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 17:30, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
- OK. I reworked the statements to your liking. I expect the BBC is reputable enough. plain_regular_ham 18:04, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- You rewrote the edit to read: "However, ALF reports many violent incidents, consistently claiming that the violence was instigated by their victims." You need to find a reference that shows (a) that the ALF reports many violent incidents, and (b) that they consistently claim the violence was instigated by their victims." It's POV, which means we must attribute it. The BBC reference didn't say that, and in any event you used it to support a different edit, so I'm not sure what you mean. SlimVirgin 18:35, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
- I am satisfied with your last revision, though I recall a page detailing claimed violence against activists. I have no problem leaving it out. plain_regular_ham 18:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Reverts that are incorrect
My edits keep getting reverted but there are multiple websites that support my claims.
A quick search on google will bring up the following along with many other articles:
Now, this page clearly needs to be NPOV. However, any attempts to show that the ALF is an ecoterrorism group get reverted. That is not right because wikipedia should provide accurate information. The ALF is discussed in other terrorism and ecoterrorism pages but those terms keep getting blocked from this page.
Those of you who keep reverting, stop being dumbasses and suck it up. The ALF is clearly an ecoterrorism group, especially if it's recognized as one by the FBI.
- I put the fact that the US government considers the group to be a terrorist group back in the article. We'll have to wait and see if it gets reverted or not. I included a link to the testimony on the FBI's web site.
- JesseG 23:27, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
- JesseG, I reverted your edit because I think we need a quote if we're going to say that the group is a terrorist group. If you look at Keith Mann, there is a reference to terrorism in the intro, because such references were prominent at the time of his conviction, but The Guardian is quoted as saying it, not Misplaced Pages, or unnamed critics. I've looked through the FBI reference, and I can't see where it explicitly says the ALF is a terrorist group, though I may have missed it. In fact, the FBI says in this statement that the ALF in the U.S. adheres to its policy of non-violence. Also, don't say the U.S. government if it's the FBI, unless you can find the ALF listed as a terrorist group by the State Dept, in which case we'd need a reference. SlimVirgin 01:54, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
NPOV tag
To the editor who placed the tag on the page, to use it properly, you have to list specific suggestions for change that are actionable within our policies. Also, please sign your posts. See Misplaced Pages:Sign your posts on talk pagesSlimVirgin 01:54, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- I've expanded the article, done some reordering and copy editing, and added some images. I also found a quote for the "eco-terrorist" claim, which I put in the intro. I took the NPOV tag off because the person who added it hasn't left any comments. The tag isn't meant to be used hit-and-run style. If it's put back, please say specifically what you feel needs to be deleted, added, or rewritten. SlimVirgin June 28, 2005 07:04 (UTC)
PETA
We need a reputable reference for the claim that the U.S. ALF has a relationship with PETA, otherwise we'll have to remove it. SlimVirgin 01:56, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
Is this any good?
- activist cash is one of the most screwed up astroturf sites ever. You can say "according to..."" but I wouldn't call that proof of anything. I want to know where activist cash gets their cash.
Links
Riobranden, we don't embed external links in articles. SlimVirgin June 30, 2005 22:58 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, it's not an external link..? I am genuinely confused. --RioBranden
- Sorry, I've forgotten which one it was. Can you post it here? SlimVirgin July 6, 2005 22:09 (UTC)
- I made "Animal_Liberation_Front#Origins and aims" look like "Origins and Aims", which seemed like it made sense to me because it is a subsection of the same page. --RioBranden
- Sure, that's fine. I doubt that's what I was referring to; if it was, my apologies. SlimVirgin July 8, 2005 00:23 (UTC)
Links
On July 9, an anonymous IP added a section entitled "Sites critical of PETA", with a link to exposepeta.com. Since this isn't the PETA article, it is hardly appropriate. Additionally, exposepeta.com seems to be a brand new site that nowhere mentions its affiliation, history, mission, or funding. The registration data for the site is also hidden from whois searches. At this juncture, it seems like a very poor quality source for information on this topic, so I have deleted it. --Teej 07:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
- Good edit, Teej. SlimVirgin 07:08, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
The Animal Liberation Front are freaks, willing to take whatever measure may be necessary to purvey their dogma. The law be damned, their efforts are so righteousness, that nothing can get in their way--not even the danger of maiming and killing human life. User:70.98.185.10
Graham Hall
Would it be worth mentioning the torture of Graham Hall by ALF members (or at least extremists who have acted in their name)? He was making an undercover documentary for UK Channel 4's Dispatches. They figured out what he was up to and set him up, kidnapped him (allegedly at gun point) and then branded his back with "ALF" in large letters. This is the first time I've even written anything on wikipedia and I'm pretty sure I'd mess things up if I tried to edit the page myself. 81.102.204.161 22:09, 20 October 2005 (UTC)Recusant
- Hi 81, thanks for your comment. I was thinking of adding that here, or on the Barry Horne or Robin Webb pages. I remember that Hall was the person who set Webb up for Channel 4, and the result was the documentary shown on British television during Horne's 68-day hunger strike, but I also seem to remember there was a suspicion that Hall had set up the attack. Feel free to add something yourself. Write it in a neutral way and link to a source about it; others can clean it up if it needs it. And welcome to Misplaced Pages. ;-) SlimVirgin 22:23, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I think it's generally accepted that the branding of Graham Hall was a hoax. He has served time for a series of burglaries and has been linked to other suspicious claims. It makes him money and the press are easy to sucker with lurid claims like this, especially when it gives them what they want to hear. See this post agreeing with this analysis from an anti-animal rights person, for example: http://www.animalrights.net/59825 212.56.100.9 23:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- Grahall Hall cannot be regarded as a credible source, and the police took no action in response to his claims. The incident was reported by one newspaper and the BBC, so we can report his claims, but we can't state them as fact. The most we can say is that he said he was branded. Spiny Norman, please stop editing so aggressively and consider discussing your changes on talk if other editors object to them. SlimVirgin 05:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
But that's exactly what I said - I made no statement in the article that claimed he was branded *by* the ALF, I merely said he was branded with the letters "ALF". The brands were photographed and the pictures published in the paper. I assume you don't question the fact of the branding, just the question of who branded him. Right? --SpinyNorman 05:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- You've written that he was kidnapped, as though that is fact. No one knows what happened to him; and the police found no evidence of a criminal attack, or at least none that they were able to pursue. Therefore, we say "he said he was kidnapped and branded." Why do you object to that? If you do object, we can make it more accurate still: he told police and reporters that he was kidnapped and branded." SlimVirgin 05:22, 19 December 2005 (UTC)