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Revision as of 23:26, 18 October 2009

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Template removal & incivility...

Restored from archive... - Adolphus79 (talk) 03:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC) Again... still unresolved, silly Miszabot... - Adolphus79 (talk) 16:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Back on September 20, 2009, Chao19 (talk · contribs) was blocked for removing article maintenence templates and incivility. He was removing {{fact}}, {{refimprove}}, and {{references}} templates from assorted Creed articles... he was given fair warning, and his only replies the the warnings were that no references were needed and I was an asshole for restoring the templates. After the block, that user was inactive for a while, although there were one or two IPs (67.167.33.47 (talk · contribs) and possible others) that continued the pattern, even going so far as to continue the incivility on my user talk page (this and the following half dozen revisions)... within a minute of the IP's last comment, Chao19 had logged in, and replied to his own IP comment (Chao19's first edit since the block)... Since that edit, the IP has not made any further edits, and Chao19 has continued the incivility and removal of maintenence templates without reason... I filed a report at AIV, and was going to file a report at SSP, but was told it would be better brought to ANI...

It is obvious that the IP is a sock of Chao19, and it is also obvious that Chao19's original block did nothing to change his editing habits... his counter-productive editing and harassment of other users has become more than an average bother to me, and I would like someone else to look into this... - Adolphus79 (talk) 22:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes this behavior is pretty bad. Comments like "Why do you expect everything to be referenced? Jesus.." leave me with doubt that this person has the willingness to comply with Misplaced Pages's most basic editing rules. If this was a new editor I would suggest that a person have a talk with them about the necessity of verifiability but seeing that they've been an active editor for over 9 months with over 600 edits I'd consider any ignorance of rules at this point to be willful. -- Atama頭 19:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

For the last month I have tried to explain this to him, and have been met with nothing but stubborness and incivility every step of the way... I just sat down to find his latest revelation, "And from what ive seen over the year and a half ive been on here, your the only once who truly gives a flying fuck about the unreferenced stuff."... Anyone that takes a look at my conversation with him so far, will see that this guy obviously does not care about Misplaced Pages's policies, and plans to continue doing what he wants with no regard for them. Add to that the incivility, and you've got the makings of someone who (while not a blatent vandal) will do nothing but cause harm to the project in the end... - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Although, I am still looking forward to my Worst Admin Ever award... LOL - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll get started on an excremental barnstar for you. :) -- Atama頭 19:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Sa-weet... that'll be number three in as many years... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Back to the original comment, the editor in question has now begun vandalizing my user page, and continues the incivility on my talk page... Someone with tools please do something about this... - Adolphus79 (talk) 21:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Adolphus79. That last comment was completely out of line.--Crossmr (talk) 01:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Concur. A block per WP:NPA would seem to be in order if this happens again. --Bfigura 01:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

His being blocked a month ago for it, and coming back to continue harassing me isn't enough? Or the contsant and blatent template vandalism, which also continued after the last block? I can guarantee that the harassment and template removal will continue, it's not a matter of if... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet accusations

I have been accused of a sockpuppet but no case has been filed and I consider this a slur on my wiki-name. I have never been blocked or involved in sockpuppetry and I am concerned with how this will impact on my reputation. If no case is filed, can I remove it or ask for it to be removed?

What I also find disturbing about this is the editor who has added the report names two other editors who they say it could be - surely, editors cannot accuse multiple editors of being a sockpuppet and hope that one sticks? It looks like they wish to run a fish-tripping on multiple editors.

In addition, they deleted a reply of mine to that page where I noted that I had received an email about this matter to make it look like it was something I was trying to hide rather than someone I noted myself. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed it. You're BOTH (you and Benjiboi) admonished to put up or shut up regarding sockpuppet accusations and WP:BITEing. I totally agree that its likely that user is not a new user, but you have no basis for who they could possibly be a sock of. If they are a new user, you both bit them in an attempt to bully the other. If you can establish who they might be, you're free to bring a CU request but until then neither of you should reinstate those sock notices. Syrthiss (talk) 14:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - I hold my hand up on that - and will offer my apologies to the user about that - my anger at the false accusation got the better of me and I should have known better. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It's clear this is - yet another - attempt at WP:Baiting me and it's unfortunate that Cameron Scott invests sooo much energy in following me around. I guess I should be honoured they are obsessed with me. -- Banjeboi 14:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I don't particularly like having my good name thrown around by User:Benjiboi in all this as well. - Schrandit (talk) 14:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

For the record both you and Cameron Scott have continued to heap piles of bad faith on me and this claimed concern about your wiki-reputations rings quite hollow, actually. If you didn't support banned editors using anon socks, blanketing articles with {{COI}} and {{fact}} tags with apparently no interest but in deleting material you apparently don't approve and, possibly most chilling - defending attackers and murderers as unjustly accused of hate crimes against LGBT people - none of this would likely be going on. Instead, bolstered by Misplaced Pages Review you nip at my heels and throw muck at my work until you hope something sticks. Essentially you're playing the worst sort of game and playing the community for fools. If you don't approve/like/condone LGBT people and culture than work on some of the other three million articles. If you don't care for another editor? Then avoid them, don't continually target articles they work on when you obviously have little to no interest in them. In short, move on. Your actions are disruptive and are counter to building good content. You work will make or break your reputations. -- Banjeboi 14:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

This really isn't the place for more of the same vague accusations of bad faith that you have made previously and started this section. If you have a problem with my edits, I invite you to start a RFC and I'll be happy to stand on my record.Other well respected editors in the LGBT project have stated previously that they are happy with my edits and therefore I feel there is no case to answer. Otherwise I have no further comment to make here (as it only seems to encourage you in your accusations) unless invited to do so by an administrator or anyone else who is seeking answers. Otherwise I consider this matter resolved. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if that was too vague for you. Leave me alone, stop harassing me, stop accusing me of COI editing, stop trying to out me or whoever you think I am, stop WP:Wikihounding me. Hope that is more clear and we can all more on from here. -- Banjeboi 15:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Benji, your edits have shown time and time again violations of policies and guidelines. Anyone has every right to scrutinize them, and hiding behind the flag of homophobia is against common decency and WP:AGF. Please strike your accusations, apologize to the user and move on. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of vague accusations. If you have some tangible concern of my "time and time again violations of policies and guidelines" please present them in a proper forum so some non-biased eyes might see what merit your concerns hold. I'm hardly hiding behind anything, homophobia exists on Misplaced Pages but most editors are willing to act civilly towards one another despite their beliefs. We don't suspend our civility in order to make a point or enforce some other policy. There is never a reason to harass other editors. -- Banjeboi 05:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyone who knows Benjiboi's real name will see that this is an obvious attempt to annoy or harass him. While this shouldn't give Benjiboi license to accuse others of sockpuppetry, perhaps the account should be blocked. On the other hand, if Benjiboi was more open about his connections to the subjects that he edits, I suspect that the editors he accuses of being obsessed with him would find other things to do. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Impressive sleuthing DC, that does put many a suspicion to rest. - Schrandit (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It had already been raised in this discussion, where the putative conflict of interest was relevant. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 10:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• No comment on the other matters at play, but I have blocked the account indefinitely for harassment. –xeno 17:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• My connection was answered here. And even if it hadn't been answered there is never an excuse to harass other editors here. No matter someone's background they need to act civilly toward others or find another website to express their ideas. -- Banjeboi 05:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

So let's see if I understand this:

• At least as early as January 2008, Benjiboi is asked (during the first AfD for the now deleted bio of DJ Pusspuss) about his connection to DJ Pusspuss and Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P.
• In early September, the COI questions noted in the first AfD were brought up at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P.
• For the past two months, at this ANI thread, this WP:COIN thread, and a couple of AfDs, Benjiboi has steadfastly denied any conflict of interest in DJ Pusspuss, Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P., Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, etc, etc
• Now that a diff from 2006 is produced in which Benjiboi states that he is "the archivist for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc. in San Francisco" with the same email used by DJ Pusspuss, Sister Kitty Catalyst, and the freelance journalist who shell not be named, Benjiboi states that the diff "was made by someone else" using his account.

It seems odd that after so much fuss, Benjiboi didn't earlier offer that "someone else" had used their account. And if "someone else" was responsible for the 2006 diff, it can only be assumed that the same "someone else" went back in May 2007 to remove only the email address from that comment.

I am fully aware of WP:OUTING and I understand that editors may not wish to have their WP usernames connected to their real life identities, but at some point the presumption of good faith is overwhelmed by the evidence to the contrary. Benjiboi claims that because he edits LGBT articles he is at risk of becoming a victim of a hate crime. Since all of the personas in this mess (Sister Kitty, DJ Pusspuss, unnamed freelance journalist) are openly gay LGBT activists and "homo-propagandists" (their term, not mine), it is hard to see how this can be rationalized. Rather than simply avoid editing the articles where the "someone else" who used Benjiboi's account would have a conflict of interest, Benjiboi has edit warred and blustered about being harassed by accusations of COI. This has become a low-level but constant distraction and has now blossomed into actual harassment of Benjiboi by anon IPs and abusively named accounts.

Ignoring the problem hasn't made it go away. Can we find some constructive way to deal with this issue, please? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, despite - yet another - rehashing of this alleged problem you have shown a connection likely exists, it has been acknowledged. That is different than an actual problem, as has been pointed out out repeatedly. Yet you choose to dredge it all up again to publicly flog. Luckily we don't reward bad behaviour even if perpetrated by anon vandals bolstered by Misplaced Pages Review. The COIN thread, where apparently COI problems are reported, is rather explicit that our civility policies should not be swept aside in order to conduct witch-hunts. If you have any evidence of actual COI editing problems you can make your case there rather than enabling incivility of a handful of editors, some already shown to be socks of banned editors. I'll repeat my same admonishment - Delicious carbuncle please leave me alone. -- Banjeboi 03:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but I can't parse your first sentence. Can you please rephrase that? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It was confusing to me too but in context with the rest of the comment, I believe that Benjiboi is saying that yes, there's a COI and it is acknowledged, but a COI in and of itself is not a problem unless it's paired with disruptive editing. Which is true. I'm sure that you have a belief that there is disruptive editing otherwise I doubt you'd be pursuing this in multiple places, but that's the point that Benjiboi is disputing. -- Atama頭 19:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

there's a COI and it is acknowledged, Where? --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I think Benjiboi just did. I think that the COI is undeniable with the diff you provided. So Benjiboi basically said, "Yes there's a COI but so what? It hasn't caused a problem." Saying that the COI "has been acknowledged" is an acknowledgment, isn't it? If this COI is acknowledged after a long denial, of course, that in itself may be a cause for concern. -- Atama頭 15:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

If Benjiboi is finally acknowledging a COI, that would be a welcome and refreshing change. My reason for bringing this up again here is that it seems to be at the root of this latest ANI report and Benjiboi's current disputes with other editors. I hope that Benjiboi does not cease his diligent work with LGBT subjects, but if he could stop editing the small number of articles where he does have a conflict, it would probably make the drama go away entirely. I'm not asking for a ban of any kind, just a voluntary action for the sake of peace. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:30, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Delicious carbuncle, you and a few other editors are self-appointed hall monitors creating drama where there is none. Similar to your treatment of David Shankbone, your stated concern seems somewhat reasonable. But with any discernment reads as you wish to compel others to disclose, by inducements or relief from harassment, a compiled list of various articles they do or may have a COI on. We don't operate like that. Every article doesn't carry with it an alert tag "Warning: the following editors are compromised here" nor does every editor come with a list of articles and subjects where they are or are not allowed. Instead we look at content and behaviours. So no, I don't believe "the drama go away entirely" at all as before this I have been stalked and harassed by anons and quite a few since banned editors. And no, it wasn't for COI issues but a variety of LGBT-related subjects where I primarily work. I don't care if it's the same person or a small group working in a collaboration. I don't even care why someone is harassing me just as I wouldn't care why any other editor was being harassed. We don't allow it no matter what point someone is trying to make. If have have any actual COI problems - that is where a real or perceived COI is manifesting in COI editing please start a thread at COIN and make your case there. A connection was shown a COI problem was not. Feel free to get in the last word if you must. -- Banjeboi 03:02, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Benjiboi's assessment. In my case, the same person--User:Delicious carbuncle--that was raising a fuss was the same person saying that 'all this will go away if you do what I think you should do' despite everyone on the board telling DC, to the point of exasperation, that he was unable to show any problems. It's similar to how the mafia operates; they create problems that you must then bend to their will to have solved. He targets people who have completely stuck within policy simply because he doesn't like them or feels they should do what he thinks they should do. Instead, he maligns the people (including Benjiboi and Peteforsyth) who pointed this out to him. He nominates a very notable foreign film for deletion (Ping Pong Playa) as "unremarkable", templates User:Ynotswim, upsetting him, all because he Googled the wrong phrase. I spend five second Googling the correct phrase, and when he closes the AfD says "I'm sure someone will be along in 6 or 7 months to add references". He created a situation, was in the wrong, and doesn't do anything to actually improve the article nor apologize to Ynotswim. Over on Outlaw motorcycle club he tells User:Dbratland that his word is no good (despite that user providing in good faith six sources to back himself up, with links DC could easily check for himself). Here he is going at Benjiboi. Only on ass-backward Misplaced Pages can I undertake routine linkspam removal and have it presented by Carbuncle on Misplaced Pages Review as an attempt to "strongarm the competition", have him enter a delicate discussion with personal attacks, and then have nobody do anything about it on this board except for Manning Bartlett to characterize it as a "misunderstanding" despite all evidence to the contrary. And people wonder why content contributors get fed up? All of this just in the law few weeks. -->David Shankbone 12:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

David, to be so brutally and publicly attacked by one Misplaced Pages's most renowned editors is especially painful to me because I though that our problems had been resolved. I had hoped that your appearance on several articles I was editing was a sign that you thought we could work constructively together. Unfortunately User:Ynotswim is a serial copyright violator, but nonetheless I am sorry if they are upset. My initial impulse was to ask for Ping Pong Playa to be CSD'd for copyright violation, but I went the AfD route to allow for discussion. I closed the AfD when you showed me my mistake. As I said in closing it, I made a mistake when searching for evidence of notability. You'll find many more mistakes if you search through my contribution history. Let me apologise again for the misunderstanding that lead to your recent ANI thread about me. Since you obviously feel that I am a destructive influence here, perhaps you should start another thread instead of further clouding the already murky discussion here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, I don't mean to minimize the harassment you and other editors receive for your work on LGBT subjects, but in relation to a very specific set of articles I honestly do believe that the current situation will be resolved by a voluntary pledge not to edit articles where you have a conflict of interest. We can ask the editors who have in the past tagged those articles as COI if they agree. There is no witch hunt or intimidation intended here since your connection has already been shown. After literally years of denial, you have finally admitted what has been obvious for a long time. It is therefore understandable that some editors may not let go easily. I am proposing a way forward with this persistently disruptive pattern. Are you willing to try it? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Delicious carbuncle, just stop. There was no years of denial as much as never revealing who I was, and I explained why. Every one of those COI tags has been removed insisting - as we have pointed out here and every other time - that you show actual problems instead of inventing a narrative bolstered by various Misplaced Pages Review socks, six - by my count - have been blocked so far. The way forward is for you to drop it, you've wikihounded and I simply am not going to take your word on behalf of a group of disruptive vandals that now they will act like adults. It's unfortunate you don't see the problems your causing by re-opening closed issues and attempts to air "concern" publicly. If all the editors involved simply focused on the content and not the contributor - per policy, none of this would have been a drama to begin with. Walk away and know that your mission here is done. In the future if you think someone is COI editing take it to COIN and show a problem exists not a connection. And avoid even the appearance of outing people - it remains a form of harassment. -- Banjeboi 16:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I have already described the problem - there is a low-level but long term disruptive edit war going on at a number of articles with which other editors perceive that you have a conflict of interest. I am not speaking on behalf of anyone. I am suggesting we ask editors such as User:Cameron Scott and other editors in good standing here who have been in conflict with you on this issue whether they would accept my proposed solution. Since your identity is already known (because of your own edits) there is no "outing" going on here. I realise that this is probably a touchy subject for you, but please consider my proposal seriously, rather than simply assuming that I am trying to harass you. Wouldn't this reduce the amount of friction for you? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Delicious carbuncle, I don't know how to make this more clear - you are the source of friction here. Everyone else seems to have moved on to actually build articles. You have described a connection, based on who you think I must be even though that was confirmed to be untrue. The edit-warring was by those looking to add {{COI}} tags on numerous articles - all of which have been removed as described above. Thus you are the only one still WP:Beating a dead horse. Move on. Show actual COI exiting persists and perhaps do so at COIN following the guidelines there. -- Banjeboi 18:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, I find it hard to keep track of where we are in this conversation. User:Atama interpreted your earlier statement as confirmation of your connection to DJ Pusspuss/Sister Kitty Catalyst. I expressed my doubts, but you seemed to confirm it when you said "A connection was shown a COI problem was not". Are you now retracting that admission? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Showing someone might or likely has a connection is not in and of itself a problem. I'm admitting that you are the only problem in this thread. Accusations have been leveled against me but they ring quite hollow. Please get off proving anyone's identity at all, ever. It's simply disruptive. No actual problem has been shown to exist despite multiple requests here and elsewhere. Otherwise this seems like you just stirring drama and disrupting to make a WP:point. Delicious carbuncle, this is your invitation to drop it and move on. You have expressed your concern and whoever needed to see it likely has and is not as passionate about targeting editors as you seem to be. Drop it, move on and please be more careful about these methods in the future. -- Banjeboi 03:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, I'm not accusing you of anything other than equivocating. There is no question that you have a connection to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence since you have divulged that information yourself. I have offered a possible way forward with this situation that one of the participants has tacitly agreed to on my talk page. I don't know who the other parties in this dispute are, but if they also agree, will you? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

That diff was already brought up and answered. The way forward in this situation is for you to cease and desist. You are simply badgering and harassing with no actual COI editing problems. Your attempts to continually out, shame an offer your way forward are a sham. Leave me alone and find something constructive that actually benefits Misplaced Pages besides harassing other editors. -- Banjeboi 10:28, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you got your response, but hey we can rewrite the COI guidelines, 'simply refuse to discuss your COI and if pushed cite the Benjiboi precedent'. The fact that one of the sources that they add is from the his organisation's website and for all we know, they write it to support their need for a source - no problem, it's all good. Reliable sources? pfff independent sources? what you talking about? --Cameron Scott (talk) 18:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Huh? how is a film company my organization? Please find something better to do. -- Banjeboi 18:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that Cameron Scott is referring to the information added in that diff giving the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence website as the reference. As a member of that organisation and the current or former archivist, presumably you have influence over the content of the website. This is precisely why the issue is unlikely to go away. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:11, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

As that diff shows I added a ref to an independent film. The other refs were already there. And, again, please stop assuming who I am and what any of my connections might be. If you have an actual content problem that needs to be addressed then talk only about that. -- Banjeboi 10:28, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Meta discussion

Cameron Scott and Delicious Carbuncle. Maybe I am missing the point here, but:

1. Lets say that Benjiboi is not involved in writing the articles, or not even in the organisation. In that case, there is no COI, and that edit is OK
2. Lets say, that someone writes a good, reliable document in the organisation, and Benjiboi has a COI with that organisation and uses it as a reference. How is that not just a WP:IAR to actually improve the document. And does it actually advance Benjiboi's position?
3. Lets say that Benjoboi is writing a good document in an organisation he works for, and then cites his own work. Does Misplaced Pages advance, yes, does he advance himself, yes/maybe. It may be frowned upon, but you do not have any actual proof, and even if you did, it is not a reason to revert or to tell Benjiboi not to do it. He was actually improving the encyclopedia.

So unless there is scenario '4' (where either Benjiboi is writing unreliable sources in order to be able to use them here to advance his position and Misplaced Pages is not getting better), there is no issue here. You are close to assuming bad faith on Benjiboi and baiting him into answers, and Misplaced Pages does not seem to get better by it. Misplaced Pages has many editors with a conflict of interest of which we don't even have the slightest idea that they have it, here we seem to have someone who may be involved in a part of the organisation, who may be influential in the content of the website of the organisation, but unless you now come up with clearly bad edits that is by far not enough to discuss this. Move on. --Dirk Beetstra 11:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

This thread was started because Benjiboi accused three editors of sockpuppetry. This is just the latest skirmish in a battle that has been going on for some time. I find it more and more perplexing that after repeatedly posting the link wherein Benjiboi details his involvement with the Sisters of Perpetual etc, we are still discussing this in terms of hypothetical scenarios. Dirk, you have taken one edit to serve as the example of the COI concerns here. This does not show the larger pattern. Benjiboi created not one but two autobiographies as DJ Pusspuss and Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P.. He voted to keep in at least one of the AfDs. He has inserted pictures of himself into those articles and others. Just days ago, he was the only editor arguing to keep an image that others felt was unnecessary. I do not see these as signs that the interests of WP are being served, or that the encyclopedia is being improved. Benjiboi is a valuable contributor to LGBT articles, but in the specific cases where he has a COI, I think there will continue to be conflicts until the situation is dealt with in some manner. I have proposed a negotiated solution which Benjiboi evidently does not wish to accept. (I say evidently because he has never directly addressed the question.) Note that I'm not even directly involved in this dispute, I'm just tired of it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

It is fine with me that the COI is real, but that does not have to be a problem, thát is what I meant. We have many disclosed and undisclosed COI editors here, and they all can join in in discussions. To me there is no bad thing in that Benjiboi with a conflict of interest or without a conflict of interest defends articles and comments in AfD's on articles they started. Or creating those articles, etc. etc. If his editing violates our core policies, then we are talking, but I don't see any proof of that. I don't see why there 'will continue to be conflicts' when he is editing like that. --Dirk Beetstra 15:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I do however agree that Benjiboi should not accuse editors of creating sockpuppets when there is no proof it is actually a sock of that editor, leave that to the checkusers. I do however think that HenjiBolmann is somehow questionable. --Dirk Beetstra 15:44, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. that's why I suggested the account be blocked as an obvious attempt to harass Benjiboi. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:59, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

That connection was asked and answered and the core take-away message remains the same. Show an actual problem exists not an acknowledged connection. As for those XfDs I think you'll find I'm rather consistent in insisting we find valid reasons to save or delete content whether articles, images, etc. I don't see that changing. I'll let you get the last word in here but it would seem that yet again this discussion has been WP:Beating a dead horse. Please move on. -- Banjeboi 19:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Unthinking vandalism of cited material by User:Ckatz & User:Ruslik0

Aurora (astronomy). Ckatz & Ruslik are tag-team reverting my corrections to this article, which I've cited sources for. They clearly have no idea of the subject material, having never contributed creatively to the subject, but that doesn't stop them repeatedly reverting my corrections.

I've been trying to get this edit, which was pretty much off the top of my head plus a little research, to stick, on & off, since 27 August, 2009. On that day I was in the process of putting together some proper refs, but Ruslik undid me within 15 minutes of my correction. So I thought, what is the point?

I recently chucked a couple of naked sources

in the text (I wasn't going to waste formatting effort only to be unthinkingly reverted) the article was still reverted. I was not surprised, and was right not to waste effort.

Ruslik reverts:

Ckatz reverts:

A sample of their edit summaries:

• restore more encyclopedic text
• I do not agree with removal of information
• It was reverted because the rewrite was not of the same quality as the previous version.
• Are you a physicist

They are clearly unthinking vandals.

Even when another user reverted back to my version, saying, "don't remove cited mateial", Ckatz came back with the ludicrous justification about quality.

This is a fending off exercise by these two users, who clearly have no desire to improve the article, and every desire to harass me.

They have partially succeeded in fending me off, because of them I have done no other research for this article, what would be the point?

Could these two users be topic banned from this article? Thanks. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Your false accusations of vandalism are disruptive. Ruslik_Zero 15:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

This is not vandalism; it's an edit war. Simonm223 (talk) 15:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, looks like a content dispute to me. dispute resolution seems a more appropriate path than ANI to me. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Have to disagree. The material I'm replacing is unreferenced, and clearly wrong. Referenced material is being removed with spurious justifications. Repeated removal of referenced material is vandalism in my book. The targeting by these two users of me is harassment as well, but the real concern is the inaccuracies of the article I'm ironing out. Topic ban for these two please. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The proper course would be to ask for assistance from the Physics or Astronomy workgroups--we have people here who can help resolve this and--quite possibly--write a better section than either of the two. DGG ( talk ) 16:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd ask that anyone reviewing this first compare the versions in question, and note especially the latter paragraphs of Harry's version. From what I can tell, it does not appear to be encyclopedic text. As to his spurious accusation above, it would be of great benefit to first review Harry's contribution history, and his lengthy list of issues on this board and elsewhere. Really, that speaks more to this particular situation than anything else. --Ckatz_spy 16:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

{edit conflict} Good call DGG. Simonm223 (talk) 16:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

DGG, kick this into the long grass? You see no need to examine the behaviour of Ckatz & Ruslik? HarryAlffa (talk) 16:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

(outOfSequence)Ckatz deceit and mischaracterisation, "the latter paragraphs ... it does not appear to be encyclopedic". Even if you agreed with this assessment, it is in no way justification for the removal of cited material. Notice the sleight of hand in directing you to other concerns. He seems to be saying, "Me and Ruslik have had trouble with this guy, so that justifies us harassing him".

{moved comment to ANI within ANI below}

(edit conflict)You've been trying to edit war an underreferenced section into an article for two months, which is much harder to read than the existing version, you haven't gone to talk once, and you insist it's the other editors' problem?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Sarek, You refused my olive branch over your misunderstanding recently, now you turn up here with the perverse implication that I refused to discuss a point with others on Talk. This is a deliberate deceit. The proper procedure would be for Ruslik to start a thread on the talk before he reverted an article whose subject he knows little about. Neither he nor Ckatz made any such effort on Talk, in fact Ckatz almost universally refuses to contribute to the talk pages of any of the articles he involves himself with. HarryAlffa (talk) 17:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Deliberate deceit, huh? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes? There is no communication on the talk page by anyone on any of this. If you are only going by the history of the talk page (as your link suggests: 4 contribs since end of July) and not looking at the talk page itself then you have deceived yourself, and have thus carelessly passed that deceit onto this page. I'm a little pissed off at your accusation of edit war when Ckatz & Ruslik have been removing cited material - repeatedly. Particularly when you say I've been trying to edit war. Your prejudice and hostility are plain, you should recuse yourself. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

{moved whole load of comments to ANI within ANI below)

Back on topic

Ckatz & Ruslik have repeatedly, and tag-teamingly reverted cited material.

Topic ban for these two please. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Referenced? The only link (web link, not reference) that you managed to insert is this one, which, however, contains almost no useful information. So, your version is uncited and contains serious errors and omissions. You removed a lot of useful information about auroral emissions, and you are trying to use a confusing terminology, which you invented yourself. Ruslik_Zero 18:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes referenced, two separate links, as I explained above I was not going to waste formatting effort to have you revert anyway - which you did.

So lies you have told here

1. only one reference
2. "contains almost no useful information"
3. "removed a lot of useful information about auroral emissions"
4. I am guilty of neologism

1. There are two references , NASA
2. "The flow of charged particles from the Sun, known as the solar wind, expands outwards to the surrounding space. Close to the Earth the solar wind interacts with the magnetosphere, feeding energy and particles there. Processes taking place in the magnetosphere lead to the acceleration and precipitation of electrons and protons in the upper atmosphere of the Earth, know as the ionosphere. When the charged particles enter the atmosphere, they excite the ambient atoms and molecules, which emit light when returning to the ground state, thus creating aurora (northern lights). In this course, we study the formation of aurora as an ionospheric process as well as from the viewpoint of solar wind-magnetosphere-ionosphere coupling."
3. I corrected, not removed, info - as per the bold parts above.
4. I have invented no new terms of any sort

Now that we've established you will tell blatant lies about evident facts, we then examine your conclusions and, no surprise, your conclusions rely on the lies you have told about the facts. Then you throw in "contains serious errors and omissions" which is really just another lie. After that you have become quite hysterical.

You're trying your best to turn this into a "I said he said" thing about the content, but you have shown yourself to be a liar, and you and Ckatz have removed cited material in order to harass me. HarryAlffa (talk) 12:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I would draw the involved editors attention to the Bold-Revert-Discuss policy. 'Nuf said. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

That might apply if it was a bold recasting of existing material, and not the correction it was. So I think it fails at that first hurdle. But I thank you for paying some attention here, and ask your indulgence in looking deeper at the false claims of Ruslik above. Ckatz & Ruslik have no record of creative interest in this article, and you can see above that Ckatz reckons past conflicts give them the right to harass - which is what this really is. HarryAlffa (talk) 12:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Repeated accusations of lying and false claims is a violation of WP:No personal attacks, and may get you blocked. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

... whereas actually lying and making false claims isn't. HarryAlffa (talk) 14:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment about the complaining editor

I can't really say much about the change proposed by HarryAlffa, but based on previous interactions and my overall impression of his contributions: I would revert any such relatively big edit by this editor on sight unless I could convince myself that it is factually correct or another, reasonable, editor convincingly supported the edit and would accept responsibility for it. This is the only editor so far that I would say something like this about.

HarryAlffa has proved in the past that (1) he is not a team player, and (2) his claims of having expert knowledge that trumps the consensus of everybody else are out of proportion to the little sense and knowledge that he may possess. This user is here to improve the encyclopedia, but does not seem to be contributing to this goal by any objective measure.

Recent previous ANI threads involving this user:

• June , followed by . Result: Hard to say what the result was, but certainly not what HarryAlffa expected. Discussion died after he was blocked for a week.
• August . Result: Proposed community ban against HarryAlffa not appropriate at that time.
• August . Result: HarryAlffa blocked for a week. Discussion died after uncontradicted proposal of an indef block.

This is probably once more not the right time to discuss a community ban, but if HarryAlffa doesn't learn a few inconvenient truths about himself this will have to happen sooner or later. (Links to problematic behaviour, and some pretty funny examples of it, can be found in the ANI archive links.) Hans Adler 13:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I think what Hans is saying, "I don't like this guy and it is therefore alright by me if you harass him and remove cited material".

You can see his attempt to pick a fight with me here Artificial Intelligence User Accounts with this. I instead used humour and whimsy to confuse him. This is another of his contributions designed to sow conflict. HarryAlffa (talk) 14:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I trust readers of this section follow at least one of the links before making up their minds. Yours would be a good start, as it does illustrate how you are putting your energy into eccentric distractions. Now if you had said that you "used humour and whimsy" from the start you might have convinced me it was just a misunderstanding and there is still hope to get you on board this project. Hans Adler 17:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Both of you are showing a great level of maturity at this moment.--AtlanticDeep (talk) 21:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

This comment is offensive, whether it is read as sarcastic or not. It doesn't seem to be compatible with having followed the links above. Hans Adler 01:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Hans, there was no misunderstanding in you trying to pick a fight. I used whimsy and humour to bamboozle you, I did not say my proposal was purely whimsical - whimsy and humour are not incompatible with a serious proposal, as everyone with a sense of these things was able to discern at the time. HarryAlffa (talk) 14:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Atlantic, thank you for your mature reflection. HarryAlffa (talk) 14:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

ANI within ANI, User:Ckatz persistent reverts against concensus - FOA User:YellowMonkey

Ckatz has recently been unsupportedly dismissing the legitimate contributions of others as "vandalism" and "trolling". It may be that Ckatz would benefit from advice by more experienced editors/admins. --24.187.199.178 (talk) 16:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Your difference link includes the "trolling" comment but has nothing to indicate Ckatz referred to any edits as vandalism. Furthermore how is this remotely relevant to the discussion at hand? Simonm223 (talk) 16:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

There's a link in the supplied diff that points to the vandalism comment, iirc.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The difference link pointed to another editor replying to a (supposed) vandalism comment but does not appear to include CKatz mentioning vandalism. I'll take another look in case I missed something. Simonm223 (talk) 17:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, difference link does not include CKatz using the word "vandalism" or any variant therein. Still don't know why this is relevant since the only person accusing anybody of vandalism right now is HarryAlffa. Simonm223 (talk) 17:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The link supplied goes to a talkpage. On that talkpage is a link to , which is what the anon is referring to. I reserve judgment on whether the term is accurate or not. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, a bit convoluted to post a diff link to a link to a comment but I can buy that. Notwithstanding the fact Ckatz has used the phrase "vandalism" questionably in the past what does this have to do with the current topic of discussion. My understanding was that HarryAlffa called edits vandalism, not Ckatz. Simonm223 (talk) 17:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The IP's comments have no bearing on this matter. He/she is unhappy at having tangential BLP text rejected from Chevrolet Tahoe, and has since been following all of my edits. (See Special:Contributions/24.187.199.178 and compare it to Special:Contributions/Ckatz.) --Ckatz_spy 18:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me for not doing things the best way; I'm new but learning much. An earlier editor's near-question seemed directed to me ("The IP"): "Your difference link includes the "trolling" comment but has nothing to indicate Ckatz referred to any edits as vandalism."
It's just that I too have endured baseless accusation by Ckatz. Frankly, her actions seem quite different from what I'd expect from an admin.

Regarding the matter I mentioned earlier, four or five editors all moved to make Dog sex a disambiguation page. Ckatz repeatedly reverts while insisting that others discuss the matter (yet she herself refuses to do so until, like, yesterday). Of the seven links which follow, the last link shows that Ckatz calls the last attempt to disambiguate "harassment" and then she locks the article claiming "excessive vandalism" (of which there is literally no evidence).
.
It seems likely that Ckatz is an enthusiastic, but insufficiently judicious, editor/admin. --24.187.199.178 (talk) 18:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

AuthorityTam, I'd only ask that if you are going to claim I've made a "baseless accusation" against you, that you indicate where and when. I can't find any trace of a post from me on your talk page, nor from you to mine, and the only post you've made with "Ckatz" in the summary appears to be the one you just made here. --Ckatz_spy 21:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

In fact, having reviewed your contributions, I'm finding it difficult to see any articles we've both edited. There are two or three that may overlap, but I didn't see any interaction between us there. Again, please provide details or retract the claim. Thanks in advance. --Ckatz_spy 21:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

{edit conflict}That's me, I used my neighbor's computer. I'll figure out how to create my own account tomorrow since I think I'm going to be around a while. I for one am not intimidated by Ckatz threats: . --24.187.199.178 (talk) 21:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Ckatz is doing the same thing on the Medical Cannabis page, fyi. Just take a quick look at the history. 68.13.178.225 (talk) 20:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Ckatz seems to dismiss others' work too quickly. Another editor may have spent much time creating something useful for readers, yet Ckatz might spend maybe two or three minutes consideration before rejecting and reverting all the efforts of others. For example, Ckatz also had an indefensible position regarding "SG1". She seems to have spent, at most, four minutes evaluating the matter; then FIRST she cleared the disambiguation page, and SECOND she removed Stargate SG1's link to the disambiguation page, then was on to revert an unrelated article all within five minutes! That's myopic, since a disambiguation page for SG1 is an obvious! So, another editor has to go to the trouble of properly creating what was apparently too-hastily deleted, and must do so with care lest Ckatz pretend that he commits "vandalism" or "harassment" or other imaginary crimes against her. No one will be surprised to learn that SG1 is again a disambiguation page, despite the hurry-up deleting/reverting campaign of Ckatz. With so many examples like that, a person would have good reason to believe that Ckatz is not a sufficiently conscientious editor/admin. --24.187.199.178 (talk) 18:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll get User:YellowMonkey to look at this. He's blocked someone in the past for a week for "persistent editing against consensus", I wonder if he'll be consistent with his friend as he was with that victim? HarryAlffa (talk) 15:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Four individual editors have made a disambig page for dog sex, Ckatz has reverted them all; User:Xezbeth, User:Peter Napkin Dance Party, User:Kevinmon, User:24.187.199.178
The first revert had no edit summary, then:

• "Discuss at Talk:Canine reproduction first"
• "Wait for discussio to occur"
• "rv. - no consensus for this change"
• "rv.; please note that the issue of converting this page from a redirect to a disambiguation page is still under discussion at Talk:Canine reproduction"
• "rv. harassment by IP 24.*"

Then comes page protection, "Protected Dog sex: Excessive vandalism: IP changing before discussion complete"

This is typical of Ckatz' position. What he's is saying is, "You need permission first before you do this". Totally anti-empathetic to Wikipedian ideals.

He is unsuited to adminship.

The talk page was moribund, but then he puts something there, and then reverts with edit summary, "please note that the issue of converting this page from a redirect to a disambiguation page is still under discussion at Talk:Canine reproduction"

He is unsuited to adminship.

Then comes the accusations of, "harassment by IP 24.*", not true.

He is unsuited to adminship.

Then he pretends there has been, "Excessive vandalism", to justify protection.

He is unsuited to adminship.

I think he can reasonably be described as deceitful - that is my experience with him, and is as I pointed out in the ANI which contains this one. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly "the IP" gets a bit hacked off at being falsely accused of vandalism, and leaves a message on Ckatz talk page, which he deletes with the edit summary, "rv. trolling". Then Ckatz leaves a message accusing the IP of harassment

Please note that your continued efforts to harass someone you've had a disagreement with are unacceptable. It is one thing if you wish to mirror my contribution list and fix genuine errors that exist in the articles.. That course of action, while creepy, is not a concern. However, it is another matter entirely when you begin to interfere with legitimate actions. Please stop, before this requires further measures.

— Ckatz

From "the IP" reply he is a bit surprised at this further accusation. HarryAlffa (talk) 16:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Harry, you need to read carefully WP:AGF. You have violated this very important policy repeatedly on this page by assuming the basest of motivations of people. I'm surprised no one here has pointed it out to you. You need to focus on edits, not what you think are editors' motivations. Auntie E. 15:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

What makes you think I've "assumed"? You need to read this whole ANI carefully for the evidence WP:AGF asks for. That very important policy is not for the protection of non-truth sayers and deceivers. May I respectfully suggest that your efforts would be better directed at Ckatz & Ruslik in modifying their behaviour. The project would much appreciate your efforts in that endeavour. HarryAlffa (talk) 16:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Harry, I'm not going to bother pointing out the flaws in your claims, as that has proved utterly fruitless in the past. I will say, however, that I'd appreciate it if you could at least make an effort to accurately represent events rather than just spinning them to suit your purposes. As well, you should really examine the IP 24's contribution history carefully before basing your case too heavily on that individual. --Ckatz_spy 17:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I want say that HA is especially good at one thing—spreading slur about others. The dab page in question was a clear violation of our WP:BLP policy. Ckatz made only one error—did not delete the history of the page. Ruslik_Zero 18:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

um, Dog sex is NOT a biography of a living person so WP:BLP does not really apply. Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 18:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought I would chime in on this subject as I am the main force behind Dog sex. I won't claim that I know ckatz's mind, but she seems overly tied up with the status of Dog sex. Even after a discussion was posted, and no one commented in weeks, she still had a problem with it. Even when an editor (probably patrolling recent changes) reverted her revert because he (the editor probably patrolling recEnt changes) saw it for what it was--a user taking away information and replacing it by near-blanking the article. I'm not sure why she is so concerned with the status of Dog sex. but she seems almost too concerned, and not at all a disinterested editor. I can not speak to her editing history, but as far as Dog sex is concerned, it isn't the best. I can understand why she claims 24* is herassing her, but seriously, it looks like he has been making mostly-constructive edits. So what if he follows her around and edits the same articles as her? Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 18:40, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

BLP policy applies to any article that contains information about a living person. And calling somebody "dog sex" (this was written in the dab page) is an insult. I also strongly advise you not recreate the dab in the form it existed before I deleted its history. Ruslik_Zero 19:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall anyone being mentioned as being dog sex in the disambig page. I think someone was mentioned there because SHE WROTE A BOOK INVOLVING SEX WITH A DOG. Hence, people interested in dog sex might be interested in her book thus her. The article did not say SHE had sex with a dog (which in most circles I could see as being an insult). I do not think it is slander or liable or whatever if we include an author who writes about dog sex in an aritcle ABOUt dog sex, just seems like good policy to me. Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 23:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

You seems to have bad memory. Saying that "dog sex may refer to ... {name of a person}, a professor who wrote a book about sex with a puppy" was grossly offensive. Ruslik_Zero 07:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

It is impossible for either one of us to know because it has been censored. Maybe the wording was wrong, but I still think that having a professor who wrote about on the subject listed in the disambig page would be a good idea. The proper way about it is the CHANGE THE WORDING, not censor the information. But, if it is against the policy then I can understand why you would delete that specific instance within the history, but I still do not understand why the entire disambig page was censored. Note that Ckatz's original problem wit hteh page had nothing to do with BLP and I feel that BLP is being pulled out now when it looks like there is consensus on the state of the Dog sex article. But by bringing up this new accusation against it you are making it even longer to have it up. :( Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 15:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Repeated posts by User:Carljung

I have tried to put similar type of complaints on Ckatz page but she removes it immediately. You just have to see her contributions to see her childish behavior. She removes links, materials etc without having any knowledge of the subject and always hides behind the fact that she is an adminstrator and has the right to do anything that she likes. I think this disruptive behaviour should be reported to the arbitration commitee and I think we should make a concentrated efoort in getting her removed as an adminstrator. The whole edifice of Misplaced Pages collapses with such ignorant adminstrators. Carljung (talk) 02:07, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd hoped to simply ignore this SPA whose sole purpose on Misplaced Pages has been to harass me (see Special:Contributions/Carljung). However, since he/she has seen fit to post here, I'd welcome another admin reviewing the matter. --Ckatz_spy 02:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd also wonder if a CU is in order; the language in the posts reminds me of Serafin. Could be wrong, of course, but... --Ckatz_spy 02:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Ckatz, the harassment is not my posting but your continuous removal of links and materials according to your whimsical notions of administrative power. Somebody has to just look at your contributions. I am sure you maybe doing some useful things for Misplaced Pages but your lack of knowledge and understanding on subjects is very shallow and troublesome. Please remember little knowledge is a very dangerous thing and in the hands of a Wikipedian administrator like you it is lethal for Misplaced Pages! In fact there are lots of articles written about what ails Misplaced Pages and I am sure most of them may have an administrator like you in their mind. I appeal to you to please stick to editorial corrections only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carljung (talk • contribs) 04:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I have indef blocked User:Carljung as a single purpose harassment account. They are probably a sock puppet too. I may file a request for checkuser to determine whether this account is connected with any of the others in this thread. Jehochman 18:53, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Incorrigibly disruptive editor

Skipsievert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an incorrigibly disruptive editor who has systematically undermined the best efforts of a team of editors on the Sustainability (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article for nearly a year now. During this period there has been a collaborative effort by a team of editors to bring the article to GA or FA status. Membership of the team is open to any editor who agrees with its goals and process. All the regular editors of the page have signed up to this team, with the exception of Skipsievert, who does not subscribe to its goals and process. Throughout this period, Skipsievert has mocked the collaboration, systematically confronting each editor in turn, tirelessly grandstanding back and forth with unfounded attacks and wikilawyer flourishes.

Skipsievert is always right, always. Anyone else's view is POV, while his view is always neutral. When the collaborative team disagree with Skipsievert, that is proof to Skipsievert that the team collude against him, and that their position is therefore invalid. He repeatedly states that even if there were 100 members on the team disagreeing with him, then it still wouldn't count, because Misplaced Pages is not a democracy and his view is the neutral one. He retains in his memory every disagreement he has had with the team, and endlessly recycles the same worn out issues, never letting anything go, determined that he is going to flog each of his dead horses back to life.

Most days, he tediously adds back into the article, one or more of the positions the collaborative team has rejected. He has been restricted to one revert per day, although recently he has not been adhering to this. He also has a suspected sock/meatpuppet called AdenR, who usually edits in tandem with Skipsievert. AdenR occasionally adopts a rather strange and stilted style. Then he reverts to his more usual style, which is an uncanny mirror of Skipsievert's, echoing his opinions and language, including his idiosyncratic grammar. AdenR has never been known to disagree with Skipsievert.

The upshot is that work on the sustainability article has largely ground to a halt. The talk page has become little more than a vehicle for Skipsievert's grandstanding. The unpleasant and non-collegial atmosphere generated by him has driven off new editors — prompting Skipsievert to make more attacks on the remaining editors, claiming they are the ones driving the new editors away.

It would be easy, but not really helpful, to give long strings of diffs. What is happening here cannot be reduced to this or that incident. It is a pattern of behaviour that tenaciously games the system. He has mastered wikilaw. The flavour of it can be appreciated only by scanning the actual talk page material. I would suggest scanning the last archive followed by the current talk page. Then a cursory examination of the edit history to the article page, where Skipsievert's pattern of tendentious edit warring is on display. --Geronimo20 (talk) 12:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Note that previous disputes involving this editor have been reported here and here. Skipsievert's disruptive behavior is also currently being discussed at Wikproject Economics, on this thread on the wikiproject talk page. Skipsievert has been warned several times about uncivil behavior, for example, here, here and here. On the Austrian School article he has continuously reverted User:Cretog8 and myself when we removed edits made by the socks of a banned editor User:Karmaisking, and then accused us of wrong doing. He refused to withdraw the accusations even after being confronted with conclusive evidence that the socks were of the banned editor. LK (talk) 14:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not a regular editor of the sustainability article, and so only know as much about this issue as I've seen from Skipsievert discussing the conflict at other talk pages. However, I did want to say that Geronimo20's description of Skipsievert's behavior is mostly consistent with what I have seen in economics articles. (I would disagree that Skipsievert has mastered wikilaw, since he often seems to misunderstand policy, but he is very free with arguments from his understandings of policy.) CRETOG8(t/c) 14:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Tsk, I forgot it's not a good idea to make ironical remarks when commenting. I merely meant that he extensively quotes wikilaw, as though his take is definitive.--Geronimo20 (talk) 19:17, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

This smells a bit like a content dispute, but I should also note that I am one of the project econ editors who has run into skip and basically been driven off articles in frustration due to his editing. His pattern of behavior fits the profile for civil POV pushing almost precisely. I don't actually know that AN/I is the right venue (and there is an ongoing attempt at mediation), but most of the comments made above are accurate. Protonk (talk) 15:36, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Protonk, your input into this thread looks like it could do more harm than good. Best to think twice before commenting here.--AtlanticDeep (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me? Protonk (talk) 23:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I hope that the Mediation mention by Protonk would not be hindered by whatever action might be taken with respect to other complaints. (I have observed only a limited share of skipsievert's edits, and am not well-positioned to comment on his general editing behavior.) —SlamDiego_←T 16:17, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that this does seem like a content dispute, it actually is a repeated string of violations of behavioral policies]. IMO, the current mediation is an entirely separate matter. Sunray (talk) 20:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

This revolves around a content dispute on the Sustainability article regarding a word definition (sustainability) to a political pov, which is not an actual definition of the word in question but to another word (Sustainable growth or development), and the use of uncivil interaction by user Geronimo who has misrepresented the situation. Also some people coming here to comment have made some disturbing personal attack commentary recently like Cretog's way over the top attack.

Also, User:Lawrencekhoo has interacted on several articles very much not according to policy and guideline editing in my opinion, along with making extensive use of personal remarks in a very negative way and that person (L.K.) believes that sources should be weighted toward a mainstream view and has asked me to not be a participant on the Wiki project economics page more or less or suggesting I should not edit there here, thus a larger issue of that editor and policy guideline issues.

N.p.o.v. is my comment as to my editing style, and also verifiable as contrasted with truth giving, whether mainstream or heterodox. Neither in or of themselves have weight. I may drop out of the Mediation described Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/WikiProject Economics Guidelines, now concerning the Econ project page, because of the resulting bad faith explanation of L.K concerning my editing activity. Coming to this page by L.K. and using it as an attacking vehicle while this other mediation is happening, seems like a very very bad idea.

I am a good faith editor on Misplaced Pages. I doubt whether there is any evidence to show otherwise. I edit a lot and on a wide variety of articles. Real issues of non neutral pov to a political pov on the Sustainability article exist in my opinion. The sign up editing team there have used consensus more as a weapon than a positive editing process. Removing a tag calling for more scrutiny done by Geronimo and citing consensus or edit warring as he has done is not good. All around making false charges of calling another editor an Incorrigibly disruptive editor in the heading here is that persons opinion, but does not reflect my trying to make the Sustainability article into a better article by trying to maintain policy and guidelines as to neutral pov on that article. skip sievert (talk) 18:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Geronimo20 has provided an excellent summary of the situation, IMO. As a member of the editing team that has been trying, for the past year, to raise the quality of the Sustainability article to FA status, I can attest to the fact that there have been almost continual disruptions by Skipsievert. Five of us agreed to work on this in November, 2008. We have continually invited other editors to join. However, likely due to the disruptions, until recently no one else has signed up. Two things have changed within the past month: 1) The disruptions have become more pronounced with tandem reverts and continual violations of WP:POINT by Skip and AdenR, and 2) other editors have now joined in the discussion (User:Geronimo20 and Lawrencekhoo).

The article has had two peer reviews this year. In the second peer review Ruhrfisch advised that the article should be submitted for good article nomination prior to FA assessment. There is a consensus between all of the regular editors except Skipsievert/AdenR that the basic content should remain stable, subject only to format improvements, copyediting and reducing the size of some sections using summary style. The content of the article has been worked out over a long process of collaboration between Granitethighs, Travelplanner, Nick carson and me, who, collectively, have considerable expertise in the subject matter. We have been aided in this by the editing and administrative skills of several other editors, including OhanaUnited, Geronimo and Lawrencekhoo.

Going back to the beginning of October, the current pattern of disruption is evident when one considers this edit , which is a major change to the consensus version of the article. It was reverted with the message to discuss the changes on the talk page . Despite lengthy discussion on the talk page from September 23 to October 13,, Skipsievert and AdenR failed to get a consensus that the changes had merit. Despite repeated requests to not make changes unless agreed to by consensus, the pattern of edit warring by Skipsievert and AdenR has continued: , , , , , , , , , , , and so on and on, my fingers are getting blistered, but there are probably at least 10 more examples up to the present date.

It is important to note that, although the current situation is more blatant than before, the pattern has been consistent throughout the past year—over a half dozen issues that stem from a particular POV that is being propounded over and over by Skipsievert. He has singlehandedly brought any productive collaborative editing to a standstill. If the article is to have any chance for improvement, we need assistance. I conclude from the abundant evidence that a topic ban for Skipsievert/AdenR is warranted. Sunray (talk) 20:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• I've encountered Skipsievert on a number of pages. I broadly agree with the comments above. Skip supports a fringe POV and pushes very hard to get that POV given more attention and credibility than is consistent with WP:WEIGHT. That includes a good deal of unproductive wikilawyering and straight-out disruption.JQ (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

This appears to be a content dispute. Despite working for nearly a year on the article, Sustainability (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) still has some not inconsequential NPOV and source issues. I do not know what condition the article was in a year ago but it appears that these problems have been caused as much by the group of editors trying to get the article up to FA standards as by Skipsievert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and his "disruptive" editing. While it is a problem that Skipsievert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems unable or unwilling to work with other editors toward building consensus on the article, I think he is not the only editor on the page causing a problem. There is plenty of blame to go around. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 21:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Voiceofreason01: Would you be able to support your contentions above about the "group of editors" with some examples? I think that the regular page editors have been open and responsive to all outside parties, including other editors, various notice boards, and two peer reviews. With respect, given the evidence presented above, it seems to me to be a superficial view to refer to this as a "content dispute." Sunray (talk) 21:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Voiceofreason01: I have worked on the article now for about 2 years. I have found that the team of editors has worked extremely well (and efficiently) together except for the relentless and debilitating criticisms of Skipsievert that have protracted the development of the article by about a year. It is an unfortunate fact that over time the kind of disruptive editing exhibited by Skipsievert builds in resistance. When compromise only ever proceeds in one direction then the relationship eventually must deteriorate. Skip does not compromise - ever - and this does not endear people to his case(s). Perhaps a new but more "collegiate" editor expressing views in a less uncompromising manner would be a help in improving the article. Would you act as an advocate for those "not inconsequential NPOV and source issues" which you believe the article contains? In the meantime it is my candid opinion that Skipsievert has, since first working on the article, proved a relentless and indefatigable negative influence. Granitethighs 22:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I meant no offense to the regular editors of the Sustainability article, User Skipsievert's behavior seems to have been, in the balance, detrimental to the improvement of the article. In retrospect my comments, and the converns about the article that promted them, are probably not relevent to this discussion and I apologize. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 05:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Skipsievert, on numerous occasions, made me pull my hair out. Whenever he loses an argument, he will employ the "I didn't hear that" strategy. By citing comments against his view as incivil and personal attack, he will removed comments on talk page even when the comment itself is neutral-worded to try redirect the attention. This is a clear violation of talk-page guidelines. In addition, he violated yet another 1RR just a week ago. Skipsievert should have received a few more blocks due to his multiple 1RR violations, as shown by my evidence and from others. OhanaUnited 04:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, Skipsievert has also been banned for disruptive behavior from various Technocracy groups and internet forums. As seen here: and //technocracynet.eu/backup/old_net/20_4_07/index.php?option=com_mamboboard&Itemid=103&func=view&id=3818&catid=44 (which is currently on a spam filter list) LK (talk) 06:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The above ^ is a personal attack Linking to external attacks, harassment, or other material, for the purpose of attacking another editor. I suggest it be removed. This is the reasoning

linking to outside information for use in attacking another Those are internet blogs that L.K. is using. This is turning into a witch hunt now above.

L.K. has canvased other users blatantly to come here in a very very negative way here. Linking a blog forum attack in this section points out something about what is going on here. Also the way this whole thing was presented Incorrigibly disruptive editor was not neutral or accurate for a content dispute. skip sievert (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I viewed it as a neutral message. Both you and LK have interactions on that page, so what makes his message viewed as "canvass" while you removed the post and claimed yourself to be neutral? Just today, you are getting close to violating 3RR at WikiProject Economics, which you tried to prevent people from coming to here and comment on the issue. Others are warning you that you're edging towards 3RR violationg. OhanaUnited 20:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Skipsievert's activities obviously extend far beyond only the Sustainability article. Perhaps, in addition to the topic ban there should be a shorter term block to restore order and give him a chance to cool off. But please, let's address this question of the topic ban in any case. Sunray (talk) 20:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a topic ban for the Sustainability article and shorter term blocks are an essential first step. But I would mention that I have never seen such a blatant case of POV-pushing by SS, across a whole raft of articles as in Category:Technocracy movement. I am concerned that SSs own brand of pro-technocracy views have unbalanced articles such as Technocracy movement, Technocracy Incorporated and Energy accounting. (SS's agressive promotion of his own agenda has resulted in hundreds of posts from him to the Technocracy movement talk page.) There are many scholarly books written on the issue of Technocracy but these are not being referred to, and the WP articles typically rely on the slanted views of a few self-published and wiki sources. There is a lot of overlapping content in the Technocracy articles (ie., particular paragraphs and chunks of text appearing in several articles), see Talk:Energy accounting#More repetition and , and it appears that repetition of content across articles has been used by SS as a way to blatantly push technocratic ideas. I and other editors discussed this POV-pushing extensively on Talk pages of the articles involved and in extensive edit summaries in early 2009, but we had no success in bringing more balance to the articles. And SS has sometimes warned off other editors in a way that could be seen to be threatening, using edit summaries such as "Do not remove tag" or "Do not add again" see . POV pushing was an issue that was discussed at SS's 2008 user conduct RfC, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Skipsievert. Johnfos (talk) 22:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

October 17, 2009

Just to underscore the seriousness of this problem, here are today's edits to the article:

• Skipsievert reverts once again with major changes to the article lead
• I revert, pointing out that there is no consensus for these changes
• AdenR reverts with the statement "Your POV is in conflict Sunray/GT/TP/Nickcarson/Geronimo. You edit in tandem."
• Lawrencekhoo reverts, once again pointing out that the edits by Skipsievert/AdenR are against consensus.

Meanwhile the tendentious posts and violations of behavioral policies and guidelines continue on the talk page:

• Endless rehashing of the same point ,
• Personalized comments at the expense of content ,

I believe that this tandem-editing duo is making a mockery of Misplaced Pages's fundamental goals and most important policies; there is a need to take action now. Sunray (talk) 18:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Topic ban for Skipsievert and AdenR

Given the evidence presented above with respect to continual reverts and insertions of major changes to article text against consensus, disruptive and tendentious commentary on the talk page and violations of WP:POINT, the following action is proposed:

Skipsievert and AdenR are topic banned from the sustainability article and associated talk page for a period of one year.

• Support. This combo has obstructed collaborative editing and violated Misplaced Pages behavioral policies. A topic ban is the minimum step needed for a constructive editing environment to be restored. Sunray (talk) 00:17, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
• No This isn't the right venue, we haven't explored or exhausted DR and there is an ongoing mediation with skip as a party. Protonk (talk) 00:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
  • The mediation is unrelated to the Sustainability article. This is not mediatable, IMO (and I am a mediator). Sunray (talk) 01:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• If this in not the right venue, then let us move it to the right venue. The ongoing mediation has no direct connection with this case. You were referred above to 300K of talk page text attempting to resolve the dispute. And there is probably one or several megabytes of earlier attempts. You would not take this position if you had already experienced some extended process with Skipsievert. Skipsievert is interesting in grandstanding, not in resolving disputes. I think a lot of good editors will just give up at this stage if this matter cannot be settled. --Geronimo20 (talk) 01:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• A few responses. First, I feel he has disrupted articles well outside the sustainability sphere, so a narrow topic ban may only actually resolve things for that one editor. Second, An/I is generally not a fair venue for those facing topic bans nor it is a good venue from which to seek a permanent solution (unless there is overwhelming support). Third, I noted above that I have been and am now involved in some version of the DR process w/ Skip, so you can't assume ignorance of the subject on my part. Lastly, the right venue is a user conduct RfC. Protonk (talk) 01:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, good points. From what you say, this process may have to be expanded. However, we are currently prevented from constructive editing of the sustainability article and we need an immediate resolution there. Someone may wish to initiate a broader RfC relating to his activities elsewhere. Given that, how would you vote for this specific proposal? Sunray (talk) 02:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• I still oppose a topic ban, based at least partially on the unwarranted hassling on my talk page about this position. Protonk (talk) 18:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. As a wholly uninvolved outside party, I agree that - from the description above - this appears to be a clear-cut case of persistent civil POV-pushing which is having a deleterious effect on the project. Editors who do not participate in good faith should not be allowed to disrupt those who do. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Skipsievert always stoutly maintains his behaviour is impeccable, and everyone else is out of step. If they are not topic banned, the behaviour will continue and the article might as well be abandoned by constructive editors as a lost cause. It is not right that so much time and energy from so many constructive editors should be shredded in this way. The collective effort lost, trying to contain and work around the Skipsievert/AdenR barrages, would have resulted in several FA articles elsewhere in Misplaced Pages. --Geronimo20 (talk) 00:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Agree with Geronimo: Skipsievert believes he is always right, and everyone else is wrong, so no collaborative editing is possible, and much time is wasted. Johnfos (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support Skipsievert, to my mind, is a paradigm of what is meant by "tendentious editing". Granitethighs 03:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• User Johnphos has previously followed me with negative commentary whenever the opportunity has arisen like here. I do not believe I am always right and I am a collaborative editor.

• To Geronimo... I have never said that my behavior is impeccable as you quote me above. I am human. I am a neutral pov editor that has had concerns about the Sustainability article directed in a non neutral political pov.

• To Sunray and Geronimo suggesting a topic ban? What is the point? No one is, or has, stopped anyone from editing the article. The same core of people have been editing this article for a very long time as this shows I only have tried to copy edit it for neutrality, and take out glaring non neutral aspects. Concerns about the article are different than being a disruptive editor. Also to propose a topic ban on a newbie editor... AdenR?? The sign up team previously tried to say that he was a sock puppet because he agreed on some editing points that others have also agreed with in opposition to Sunray and a couple of other editors. It is noted that the pov toward political in the article is so overwhelming as to be beyond question such as the over-sourcing of a political pov. which is still a dominating issue and has been the source of driving off multiple editors that disagreed with that over-sourcing for a long time, so this a consistent pattern.

• Suggestion to ChrisO. Manipulating sentiment by giving a one sided or incomplete view is not so hard if people are determined to do that. You might go to the talk page of the Sustainability article, and see my behavior instead of being convinced here by a negative attack. If there is a Rfc,... I believe it should directed at the article editing direction itself with a question of is it being neutrally edited? This is or was a content dispute. Now it seems a variety of disgruntled users that do not seem to like me for what ever reason, have appeared here through canvassing also Lawrence khwoo calling others to come here - Sourcing an entire lead to a political point of view is not a good idea. That is the only ref/citation in the lead. I tried to source the word to a dictionary meaning instead. That would have no baggage. Instead the editing team prefers the definition of sustainability to the U.N., but there is a problem there. That is not a definition of sustainability, it is a definition to sustainable development or sustainable growth, and it is dated. My wish is that other editors actually go to the article and get involved to improve it.

• Can people in the sign up team come here sign up team, and suddenly propose a topic ban because they do not like their edits being questioned as to n.p.o.v.?? Then pile in their friends for extra support? This is not good. skip sievert (talk) 04:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support topic ban and add in a few more blocks per 1RR violations. He still leads people going in circles even in here. Had I been a neutral admin, I would have issued the blocks right away because clearly Skipsievert did not learn his lessons after his previous block, which the admin blocked him indef for "Created blog to attack users, has an obvious axe to grind, nonstop tendentious editing and edit-warring, POV-pushing and general unproductiveness" before shortening the block to 1 week per ANI. OhanaUnited 04:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• There were no 1RR violations or undoing reverts in the time frame. I may have edited other parts of the article but that is not undoing an edit. Sunray under a 1RR did violate that though, at least once. I did not. I am not leading people in circles. Previous block... several years ago. No... I grind the ax of neutral pov. and that should not be a problem. How is it that you are dredging negative stuff from several years ago above? Not good. And why are people from the sign up team showing up here to now make negative attacks?? Previously I tried to resolve some issues through informal mediation and Ohana also showed up to castigate and make demeaning commentary and dredge edits from years ago and now he repeats the same kind of behavior. It is noted that he has not participated except negatively on the discussion page in question. Ohana is also a member of the editing team on the article Sign up team. Also it is noted that Ohana came to a sock puppet investigation by the team, which was proven to be not true, with the same kind of negative polemic here - skip sievert (talk) 04:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. The above comments, the evidence against the two user accounts and the continued disruption of collaborative, unbiased editing on WP in the affected articles, speak for themselves. I am disappointed it has come to this, but all other avenues, short of a face-to-face chat, have indeed been exhausted. I see 6 in support, 2 calling for the process to be expanded. Nick carson (talk) 05:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. as an uninvolved party - one individual (and has a sock-check be done) cannot hold up progress. After reading the talkpage and the archive, I'm happy the other editors are acting with the best intentions of the project. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support' as uninvolved. It's obvious from the comments above that SS uses false accusations of NPA which is a violation of policy. The issues with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT et al. show a tendentious editor who refuses to accept consensus. We need editors from all points of view editing here, but they must follow the rules and accept consensus. Auntie E. 15:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support as uninvolved. It is clear that progress on this article is being impeded. --Iacchus —Preceding undated comment added 20:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC).

• Support based on discussion above. (For disclosure I am involved in a mediation just beginning which includes Skipsievert.) The Four Deuces (talk) 21:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Enough already. Guy (Help!) 23:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. If Misplaced Pages is to have a sustainability article worth reading, then the proposed ban is the only option. I have been editing the Sustainability page for one year now, I was part of setting up the editing team specifically in response to this post from Granitethighs, who is clearly an expert on sustainability, ceding defeat to Skipsievert whose disruptive tactics had caused GT to give up on editing under normal protocols. One year on I have come to the conclusion that progress on the article isn’t difficult with Skip involved – it’s impossible.

Mediation and RfC are pointless – as pointed out at the very beginning of this thread, Skip is always right. The entire talk archive since Skip began editing has been one long mediation process – in common with all the other constructive editors I have spent hours attempting to mediate with Skip for every minute I have spent contributing to the article. An RfC will just require us to waste even more time, and nothing will change as a result.

BTW the above support from Misplaced Pages admins is heartening; I have been put through more incivility and timewasting than it is reasonable to expect anyone to tolerate, and the other constructive editors of this article have all had it worse than me. It is a delight to hear the Misplaced Pages community agree this is unacceptable.--Travelplanner (talk) 23:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Tally thus far

• Support = 13;
• Oppose = 0;
• Other = 1 (move to another forum)

As a sign of good faith, I will 'step back' from editing the article for at least a few weeks and stick to its talk page. The issue of neutral point of view editing on the article is not being addressed in my view and obscured with information that is not connected to that issue. skip sievert (talk) 16:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

This wouldn't work, I'm afraid. Most of the havoc you have wreaked has been on the talk page. The continual reverts are highly annoying and against WP:CON, however most of the violations of behavioral policies and guidelines occur on the talk page. The inability to edit collaboratively and abide by consensus; endless disruptions to make a point and frequent violations of WP:AGF and WP:NPA by you and AdenR are what prevents other editors from progressing with article improvements. As Travelplanner points out, above, dealing with you over the past year has been a continuous mediation. Nothing has worked. The only way to avoid a ban or a block, IMO, is for you and your puppet to leave the article completely. For good. Sunray (talk) 16:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Misuse of talk page

• WLU (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Riverpa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (assumed to be male, not actually sure)

Bioidentical hormone replacement therapy is the site of a long-simmering, sometimes boiling edit war that's brushing the WP:3RR line but hasn't yet crossed over. It's currently and primarily a dispute between myself and one other editor. The issues are being gradually resolved and I'm not bringing them up here. What I am irked about is the misuse of the article talk page. I left a note on Riverpa's talk page, followed by another note and 3rr warning (we're both on our 3rd, next edit should go to WP:3RRN). Riverpa then noted on talk:Bioidentical hormone replacement therapy his issues with my recent edits but also pasted a copy of my 3RR warning with a statement that I not address him on his talk page. I posted a comment on his talk page my reasons for my edits, the notes on his talk page and how the use of article talk pages was inappropriate. Riverpa then deleted my comments from his talk page (which is his right) but subsequently posted the deleted comments on talk:BHRT. On talk:BHRT I replied to the "don't use my talk page" comment, hid the initial posting and my reply, and deleted the reposting of my message on his talk page as tangential to the page. I then informed Riverpa that removing my comments essentially means he has read them and should act accordingly. That's (as far as I can tell and barring any errors) the guts of it. I am not seeking input on any content issues, all I want is a comment on the use of article talk pages - they shouldn't be used to propagate a personal dispute and no editor can demand to only be addressed on article talk pages (for one thing it's inappropriate when the issue is editorial behaviour, for another thing it hijacks the page away from its initial purpose). I think my actions were correct and as a new editor Riverpa doesn't appreciate the different purposes and practices for the different types of pages. Mostly I don't want my postings on his talk page being reposted on an article talk page unnecessarily. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:03, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I would beg to differ that the problems are being gradually resolved. WLU has persisted in this long-simmering dispute with a series of editors previous to me, who have basically given up in the face of his tenditious editing. He has escalated his pettifoggery against me as I attempt to bring some semblance of NPOV to the article, and I prefer that his WP:wikilawyering be visible to everyone who has to deal with him. He makes accusations without concrete citations. The issue is content, WLU's ownership of the article, and his repeated contention that he is more experienced in WP, and therefore knows best. Riverpa (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

You seem to know an amazing amount about wikipedia for not even being here a month. So what do you know about this "series of editors previous"? Auntie E. 17:03, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

There were a variety of more involved editors previously:

• QuizzicalBee (talk · contribs)
• Nraden (talk · contribs)
• Hillinpa (talk · contribs); I could change the timing and name but the editing problems between Riverpa and Hillinpa would essentially be the same
• SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs) was here for a while but declined to become involved in the recent conflicts (but when she did comment, her comments were in line with my own)

I don't know if there's socking and I have urged Riverpa repeatedly to review talk page history (because the same ground is being re-run repeatedly) so I read that comment as innocuous and reasonable. There's lots of sources, they're reasonably convergent, but it's the interpreting that's mucking up the actual editing.

But I see this as tangential - mostly I don't want user talk page posts moved back to article talk pages, and I don't want to get into a friggin' edit war over something so stupid. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:20, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

There were also a couple of very minor edits by Ndaren (talk · contribs), notable for similarity in name to an editor with a conflict of interest, for focusing on BHRT, and for making corrections to talk page comments by Hillinpa (talk · contribs) . Debv (talk) 06:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Auntie E - I will repeat my entire comment that appears on WLU's Talk page, as I replied to him previously when he implied that I was a sock puppet and made much the same comments: ""We" includes the other 3 or more editors who weighed in previously on the discussion (which you referred me to who share much the same opinion as my own (SandyGeorgia, Hillenpa, and QuizzicalBee, as well as unsigned IP). I don't believe that any of us are espousing any particular POV (...well maybe not all...), but all of us seem to think that there are two valid definitions of the term BHRT, one of which you believe in wholeheartedly, the other which the rest of us seem to believe is older, and less inflammatory, and should be a significant part of this article, while you wish to ignore it.

I have never had a Misplaced Pages account before. I just know how to read instructions and distill information: a good quality in an editor, yes?

I have read most of the preceding discussion in Talk. Yes, this has been discussed before, and the consensus view seems to be more in line with my view, which is why I am mystified as to why you cannot see that this is not an attempt to slant the POV, we are trying to disambiguate the marketing scheme definition and the pharmaceutical definition of this term.

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from the personal comments and accusations. You have so far accused me of touting WP:the truth, of violating copyright, of WP:original research, and violating WP:reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riverpa (talk • contribs) 17:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)". -end quote-

WLU has repeatedly (3 or 4 times now) removed text that I have added to the Talk page that indicates that I consider this conflict to be related to content. I was under the impression that editors should not remove content from Talk pages, ever, unless it was clear vandalism or libel.

Sorry to be so able to read for content and utilize that content: I can see that WLU comes to radically different conclusions than I do when reviewing the same sources.Riverpa (talk) 18:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

So just to be 100% clear, Hillinpa is not a former account of yours? Because there are 4 reasons to suspect that they are:

1. Similarity of name.
2. Similarity of edits; Hillinpa almost exclusively edited Bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, which you've also edited.
3. Hillinpa's last edit was on September 18, your earliest was September 28, which looks like a switch from one account to another.
4. You show a lot of knowledge for someone who has only been around a month, as was said before, but if you were Hillinpa previously then you would have over 6 months experience.

I only ask this for your benefit so that nobody can later say "Aha, gotcha!" if a Checkuser confirms it or someone else does somehow. Hillinpa seems to have a clean history so if you are the same person, I don't see why you'd hide the fact. If you are the same person you haven't broken any rules to my knowledge, but it would be better to acknowledge it. Anyway, not meaning to badger you or doubt your word, if you say you're a different person then it must just be an odd coincidence. -- Atama頭 22:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

This is an odd coincidence only. I repeat (though I should not have to), this is the first time I have been on WP, first account, if I wanted to create a sock puppet name I certainly would not have created one with any similarity to a previous one. Riverpa (talk) 14:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you'd be surprised - we have some tremendously brilliant socks (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:40, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Great! So I am either a brilliant sock puppet or I'm being maligned by the accusations. I cannot prove a negative. Please, do whatever investigations that you do, and you will find out whatever - but it will not indicate that I am a sock puppet. I simply look at the situation as indicating that there is one POV dominating this topic, and it will not budge, even resorting to unfounded accusations in order to keep other POV's away. Riverpa (talk) 15:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I consider this tangential - Riverpa may be a sock. I've contemplated the idea myself. But if a sock, he would be an oddly pointless sock - there has been no !vote stacking, Hillinpa was never blocked or even warned, multiple accounts haven't been used to run around 3RR, etc. So I'm not really interested in this question. All I really want is confirmation that this is not a proper way to use an article talk page. If socking comes up, I'll pursue that appropriately but all I really am interested in here is a "stop posting and re-posting tangents on the talk page", or "shut the eff up WLU, that's a totally appropriate use of an article talk page. Content disputes, socking, neither require intervention in my mind. Talk page shenanigans do. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it's an interesting question if socks are being used to circumvent WP:COI. See my comment above, but to elaborate: Nraden is the husband of one of the most notable purveyors of BHRT, T. S. Wiley, and arguably has a conflict of interest with the subject of BHRT in general. Ndaren (similar spelling, different account) is a barely used account that's mostly made BHRT-related edits including corrections to talk page comments by Hillinpa, in one case minutes after they were posted, and without offering an explanation. There's clearly reason to wonder whether Hillinpa and Riverpa might be the same person. If it were to turn out that all these accounts are used by a person with COI, it certainly wouldn't be pointless. Debv (talk) 02:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I see absolutely no reason to suspect socking, certainly no abuse that resulted in system gaming. I believe I've asked Nraden about both accounts, the less used one he forgot the password for. Neil has acknowledged his COI and edited only through intermediary (generally me) and talk pages - appropriate for a COI. Even if they are all the same account, they're not being used abusively - there's no 3RR issues circumvented through tag-teaming. Hillinpa has not been blocked. Sometimes weird coincidences do happen, and until there's evidence of abuse I see no reason to pursue this. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

User: PassionoftheDamon

User PassionoftheDamon is making very disruptive blanket edits that have the effect of deleting a lot of well sourced materials without any discussion on the talk page of the articles. He rarely uses edit summaries, and is displaying WP:OWNership issues. When I leave comments on his talk page, he deletes them without responding, and he rarely responds to comments or questions posed on the article talk pages.

Miami Hurricanes

• removing discussion of graduation rates, gender equality and sports team costs
• - again
• . ("rmv nonsense")- again

Miami Hurricanes football

• ("rv") - deleted 30 years worth of history section

University of Miami

• - deleting the Forbes Magazine ranking without explanation
• - again
• - again

Previously, as noted in an October 13 ANI he has been removing {{copyvio}} and {{POV}} tags unilaterally while disputes are pending. in this June 2 2009 ANI he had the same problem with User:Patrick Whelan MD. There have been complaints noted about his non-communicative editing style on the article talk pages. Please help. Racepacket (talk) 17:01, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I've notified PassionoftheDamon of this thread. EyeSerene 17:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The user has also removed sourced information with the claim that it is unsourced, which I find unacceptable.— Dædαlus 05:50, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• There are many more examples, because he kept going from there: , and even today where he deleted sourced material that had not been discussed on the talk page with an edit summary that read, "stop trying to force edits that were rejected over and over on talk." Racepacket (talk) 19:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Both parties (Racepacket and PassionoftheDamon) are not right in this situation. I've requested a RFC on Racepacket, but he has yet to respond to it (he knows it exists because he posted one of his usual lengthy comments on its talk page). I've confronted PassionoftheDamon for some of his edits (the Forbes mention on the main University of Miami article), and merely because content is sourced does not mean that it needs to be covered on Misplaced Pages.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I got a bit caught up in this for personal reasons, and edit warred. I shall now distance myself from this article, and not touch that button again. However, I expect the baseless sockpuppet accusations to be retracted in light of WP:NPA, in that, the accusations have no supporting evidence.— Dædαlus 00:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

What does this apology have to do with the discussion at hand? I don't see any sockpuppet accusations here that this would be require.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Sceptic_Ashdod talking uncivil

After some edits between us, I asked to return to civilism, and got back from Sceptic_Ashdod: "Isn't it time you make an application to the Human Rights Council" etc to me here. This is directive (again), and thus not civil. Is there a list on this associated with this editor? Is it a regular transgressor? Are there more abused editors? -DePiep (talk) 00:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of civility, says an editor that puts this in his profile page: "This user has the impression and the rational experience that on Misplaced Pages Israel-related articles are not well-balanced, because of organised, agendised Hasbara", and than asks me not to talk "paternalistic". Whoever is going to review this, I don't think you'll find other 'violations' by me. I also think that such statements as above are exact opposite of the good faith approach. --Sceptic from Ashdod 04:24, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Does not look like uncivility to me, but I do wonder if someone who apparently holds the view that "criticism of Israel is antisemitism" is able to maintain sufficient neutrality in his/hers edits. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Please read what ANI (this page) is for, it is not for this type of issue. Post at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts if you think an editor is being uncivil. Aboutmovies (talk) 10:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

a) Although you did contact the editor first to discuss your issues as is required, you didn't like his answer b) WQA should have been the correct forum for civility issues, however c) What he said was clearly not incivility d) As noted, your own civility/non-NPOV is clearly stated on your userpage. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Re Saddhiyama: where did you get the quote from? Something is upside down.

Re Bwilkins: a) "you didn't like his answer". Right. Because the answer was out of limits. That's why I am here. I do not expect an editor who is losing "his" case to become sarcastic afterwards. Could be WQA - OK, but the point is to be made. c) "cleary not incivil"? - objection. It is incivil. d) My userpage NPOV??? A userpage!!! What does it say about anyone else's behaviour? The behaviour of Sceptic Ashdod is wrong, and cannot be justified by something else (what could be right or wriong in itself). -DePiep (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Saddhiyama was apparently talking to me. And just to be fair, DePiep observes correctly - there was no such statement. If you'll allow me to quote, "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction -- out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East -- is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest:

To be precise, I didn't lose any case - I said either remove everything related to the findings or keep my edit about legal value of them. DePiep chose the former and that was fine. About my sarcasm, yes it was intentionally directed towards the editor, and in other circumstances me myself would have singled it out as quite distasteful. However, as noted above, this editor places a bizarre statement in his userpage that I personally find quite repulsive. So in the end I don't have a problem being reprimanded - but not by this very person. It's exactly like Israeli-criticizing resolutions are being passed at UN Human Rights Council, that were approved by human-rights champions like China, Russia, Egypt etc. --Sceptic from Ashdod 06:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

User:Hammersoft

I am requesting the intervention of an administrator with regards to the behavior of User:Hammersoft. Lately his actions have been quite insulting, dismissive, and belligerent. I admire his passion for his point of view and respect it, however, it has become quite difficult to have a reasonable discussion with him with edits like these: and has attempted to sanitize such antagonization . He is also demanding that people do things that are not Misplaced Pages policy, such as mandating a written release of a copyright that does not exist and mandating that we contact every entity with an uncopyrightable logo to get a legal assessment of its copyright status (also on the UCLA logo too). While these are certainly possible ideas on how we could run Misplaced Pages, they are not policy and he has no reason to demand such actions. Furthermore, he pejoratively accuses me of wikilawyering when I answer his questions with regard to policy/guidelines:

He is antagonizing other editors through sarcasm (I can provide LOTS of other examples) and taunting them (again, more examples upon request)

He also seems to pride himself on pissing off other users and then publicly displaying their reactions on his user page: User:Hammersoft.

I request up to a block of this user for prolonged incivility (clarification added) . — BQZip01 —  05:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Let me also be clear that I have a disagreement with him, but the only problem I request remediation for is this one. — BQZip01 —  06:20, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Without getting into the rightness or wrongness of Hammersoft's arguments, the tone that he has used and removing other people's comments from the VP certainly seems to be extremely problematic. He's also made some odd comments about other matters too, which are probably not actionable on their own, but I think point to a pattern in the editing behaviour of this particular user. Lankiveil 07:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC).

Lankiveil, my point exactly. I am not saying his basic points are right or wrong, but the tone is the problem. I would also like to point out/defend Hammersoft in that I do not believe he has deleted any comments on WP:VPP; IMHO he improperly moved them, but I have since corrected that. — BQZip01 —  07:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I concur with that assessment.--Crossmr (talk) 09:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

You want him to be blocked because he disagrees with you? And is usually right? Ooooo-kay.... 86.20.191.239 (talk) 11:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I stated the opposite. Whether he is right or wrong is irrelevant. This IP's behavior is consistent with User:TomPhan's sockpuppetry behavior. — BQZip01 —  16:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Full disclosure: I am deeply involved in the disputes between BQZip01 and Hammersoft, and in terms of those disputes (non-free image policy and the like) would be taking the same side as Hammersoft.

That said, Hammersoft has done some actions that aren't appropriate such as removing his own comments from the middle of a discussion, leaving a discussion thread that is very difficult to follow, and certainly attitude is not positive in these edits. But I've seen a lot worse before any admin action for incivility is taken. It needs to be understood that Hammersoft is a long-time committed upholder of WP's non-free content policy and is aggressive about making sure that it is kept (the reason BQZip became involved was Hammersoft removing what he felt was excessive non-free logo use on college sports pages that BQZip was involved with, and has been at least a 6-month discussion/debate between them. I can tell you that its obvious Hammersoft is getting frustrated by the perceived lack of respect that the non-free content policy gets and how those that attempt to uphold it are often treated poorly by editors that are affected by those actions; this exacerbation of one's good-faith intentions is likely the cause for Hammersoft's sarcasm and negative behavior in the above report.

No admin action is necessary, I believe, those a word of caution and possibly a temporary Wikibreak to calm tempers is certain within line. --MASEM (t) 12:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Clearly Hammersoft refuses to understand BQZip01's point. I am not sure where it started, but at VP(P) for example BQ explained his point ~35 times to him. This includes , ,,, these edits just to get everyone to agree on his format preference for the discussion. There is no reason for Hammersoft to be so stubborn, and if he is not going to submit to BQ's view, he should either keep quiet or at least not respond back in the way he does. BQZip01 clearly knows what he is doing and it is a shame that he is forced to bring these issues here. Hammersoft should be blocked, topic banned and be forced to avoid any articles or discussions that BQ is steering. Erector Euphonious (talk) 12:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

One thing has been acted on: the account calling itself "Erector Euphonious" is a sock, and has been indef'd and deleted. →Baseball Bugs carrots← 15:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Anybody who can come up with this sort of nonsense needs to step back and regain their perspective. Its proper time that he be called to some sort of account for his demeaning and non-constructive approach. Wiggy! (talk) 13:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see the issue with what appears to be a comment on what actually happens on Misplaced Pages. Care to explain? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, if anything, that section of his userpage would seem to be against the use of personal attacks. That's nonsense? kmccoy (talk) 14:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Read the thing. Its full of logical fallacies and is little more than excuse to avoid trying to remain part of a rational debate by conducting oneself in a civil and non-provocative manner. Picking a fight and then pointing back at your own little custom written "law" is hardly a sign of a well-intentioned editor acting in good faith. Being provoked to anger doesn't automatically negate any earlier valid points one might make. You can be right, angry and uncivil all at once. Its a state of being sort of thing (not necessarily a good one I'll grant you). That section of the user page is superficially against personal attacks and is just self-serving. Wiggy! (talk) 14:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow, we must have different versions of English and/or logic instruction. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Apparently so. But let's work an example. If I was a flatearther and despite your cogent arguments about the earth's true spherical character, badgered you to the point of your cursing me out, your incivility wouldn't suddenly flatten out the planet, which is what the first corollary of Hammersoft's Law would have. You're just dismissed because you've been driven to the breaking point. What kind of approach is that? This is guy just sitting around sharpening sticks to poke in your eye.

By the way, this discussion is moot in any case. Your suggestion that my grasp of English and logic is lacking is uncivil. I invoke the Law and thereby win this argument. Anything you've said to this point is meaningless. Enjoy your day.

Get it now? Wiggy! (talk) 18:33, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can't find anything to act on here. While Hammersoft isn't always the most civil editor (which makes having your own law about personal attacks ironic, at worst), I agree with Masem above. Tan | 39 15:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

That is the point.That is why we have that policy right?--Crossmr (talk) 15:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• BQZip has taken it upon himself to be the final arbiter of all decisions fair use. Whenever people disagree with him he is quite willing to edit war to have his way. He refuses to acknowledge that we must confirm the copyright free nature of things or else consider them to be non-free. Even now, he continues to edit war at File:UCLA Bruins Logo.png to mark it as free when he knows damn well that the discussion on this issue at Misplaced Pages:Non-free_content_review#File:UCLA_Bruins_Logo.png concluded with no consensus that it was free. He also feels it entirely inappropriate for us to contact copyright holders to verify that a particular work is free of copyright. I fail to understand why he is incapable of doing so. On multiple occasions I have provided him contact information to do so, and he routinely refuse to do this work. Over and over and over again his arguments in support of marking just about everything he wants as free have been refuted. Yet over and over and over again on new similar situations, he keeps dragging the same arguments up and insisting that if we don't refute him, our opposition is without basis. To say that he is Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering is a gross understatement. I'm picking at the tip of the iceberg here. BQZ's behaviors have been absolutely against the spirit of the Misplaced Pages, full of edit warring, and more. I am far from being the only one who is fed up with his behavior. I give him kudos for one thing; he has done a lot of work to find free versions of school sports logos, indisputably free versions. But when there is a dispute that something is free, he is absolutely tenacious and refuses to acknowledge anything but his own answer as having any merit. A good piece of advice in this situation would be for me to ignore him and move away from things he edits. The problem is I'd have to give up on NFCC issues to move away from his edits, and I have evidence he is routinely following my edits so separation is impossible unless I just give up NFCC patrolling. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

  I'm going to HS's comments once and only once.

  1. I am not the final arbiter of anything.
  2. I agree that we must confirm that something is non-free, but I disagree with Hammersoft's beliefs as to what is required for confirmation. I've never said it was inappropriate to contact copyright holders. I've stated that it is inappropriate to demand that users contact trademark holders to determine whether an image is free of copyright. Most, if not all, of the people you'd contact are not lawyers and would have no idea about copyright law. It would also be a significant burden to contact the owner of every such image (currently 3,300+ images if an owner could even be found.
  3. The UCLA logo discussion was indeed inconclusive, however, a user pointed out that the institution in question considers it "script" and that seems pretty conclusive to me. Accordingly, I changed the status.
  4. Insinuating that I'm WP:WIKIHOUNDing you is absurd. Any time I've posted somewhere where you are, especially recently, it's because I posted there before or you diverted the discussion there.
  5. The last point to make is about wikilawyering, a pejorative and derisive term. It is the kind of behavior I am most concerned about. I've pointed out things in policy, guidelines, law, legal verdicts, etc. His sole response is, "that's wikilawyering" or "you're wrong" with no rationale. This kind of interaction isn't a discussion, but simply one side putting out reasoned comments and another offering nothing in return but contradiction and name-calling followed by a refusal to discuss.

  I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is not about our disagreement, but HS's behavior. — BQZip01 —  17:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• After analyzing this case, my conclusion is there is no need to take any admin action against Hammersoft. I basically agree with what Masem pointed out above; like Tan, I can't find anything to act on here. AdjustShift (talk) 17:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

  So swearing, belittling those with whom you disagree, continuous sarcasm, insults, etc. are all acceptable behavior? — BQZip01 —  17:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

  Dear BQZip01, I basically agree with what Masem pointed out above; you have a right to disagree with me. I'm erasing "resolved" tag. Two admin, Tan and I, agree with Masem; other admins can analyze this case, and let's see what they will say. AdjustShift (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Civility issues are taken care of at WP:WQA - but you brought it here instead. Long-term pattern issues are dealt with via an WP:RFC/U. Nothing that Hammersoft has done is directly actionable, but warnings were likely required. As he has been advised of, and has commented in this thread, he is aware of the feelings of the community/administrators in this case, and will adjust accordingly. Again, nothing he has said is blockable by any stretch of the imagination. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• "...a word of caution and possibly a temporary Wikibreak to calm tempers is certain within line." is what Masem suggested and I see no reason that shouldn't be implemented. — BQZip01 —  17:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

A Wikibreak is self-implemented; Masem - from what I can see - was not suggesting a block. Your calling for Hammersoft's head is getting tiresome here. If you have a civility issue you want to discuss in depth, take it to WP:WQA. There is nothing that can be done from an admin incident standpoint. Tan | 39 17:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not asking for a block. I'm not "calling for Hammersoft's head here". A simple warning from an admin with respect to this discussion is fine. If you feel it is appropriate, I would be happy to take this to WP:WQA and repeat it, but I think that is an unnecessary duplication in this case.

To quote "I request a block of this user for prolonged incivility". Looks to me you were asking for a block. Garion96 (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

My mistake. I have hopefully clarified this as that was the max I was looking for; I'm open to other solutions. — BQZip01 —  03:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and you're right, in retrospect, WP:WQA probably would have been more appropriate in this case. I had some doubts that it would have been the correct forum and just defaulted to here instead. — BQZip01 —  17:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I apologize then; I misunderstood your intentions above. Tan | 39 18:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Hammersoft could certainly stand to be a bit more polite, but as noted, he happens to be correct, and has been engaged in a debate with BQZ for some time now. BQZ's interpretation of policy is incorrect, and essentially relies on being lazy and hoping the world doesn't take notice. We have some pretty annoying policies around here, BQZ, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore them, or ignore someone who is rightly trying to enforce those policies. I think most of us wish we could do things your way, but the reasons for which we can't are sound and must be respected. Hiberniantears (talk) 17:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

  "Hammersoft could certainly stand to be a bit more polite..." is all I heard from this and is the only thing I'm trying to address. I'll be happy to discuss the other issues you brought up elsewhere. My talk page is open. — BQZip01 —  17:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

You would do well to hear more of it. Your misinterpreations are at the root of Hammersoft's frustration, not the other way around. More to the point, none of the difs you cite really make me flinch when read in context. He could be nicer, but I see no reason why he has to be nicer given your persistence in being wrong. Either follow the policies, or take an active role in exploring whether you can reform those policies you find tedious, but don't waste everyone's time raising calling the Wikiquette Police if someone starts to lose their composure with your behavior. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be a tempest in a teapot. Hammersoft has some sharp sarcasm, but hardly seems that serious. That, coupled with his frankly correct interpretation of most of the issues, makes it seem like we could just call this closed and get back to something productive. HyperCapitalist (talk) 04:38, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

CONTENT REMOVED by — BQZip01 —  (taunting of an indef blocked sockpuppeteer)

Ouch, DRIVEBY, that sounds like a threat of some sort. With 3 whole contributions, shall we do an WP:SPI?? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:12, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Already blocked. Nothing to see here... Wknight94 19:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Verbal_(person) in translation

Verbal_(person) is a new article that is being translated from the Japanese Misplaced Pages, created by User_talk:Sabeerkibria. Since the article is in Japanese, wouldn't it be more reasonable for the article to be written in the user's namespace and then moved to the main namespace? The majority of the article is still in Japanese. Thanks. Netalarmtalk 20:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

perhaps it would be a superior option to do it in user space, but there is no administrator action required after declining a speedy delete. It is an active translation, so no need to delete it. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Iranian nationalist disruption of human rights articles

Arad (talk · contribs) and Xashaiar (talk · contribs), an editor with a long history of Iranian nationalist POV-pushing, are repeatedly disrupting Human rights (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and History of human rights (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) with the addition of unsourced, POV, factually erroneous material while attacking sourced material as "original research". The material was written by another Iranian nationalist editor, Arad (talk · contribs). A consensus of uninvolved editors on the article's talk page agree that the material breaches a range of policies, including WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:V, etc. The material being added promotes a fringe theory originated by the late Shah of Iran and subsequently promoted by his supporters.

Xashaiar has responded aggressively on the article talk page. He has done little but attack myself and other editors (see Talk:Human rights#Cyrus Cylinder), despite requests to tone it down. He has edit-warred to restore the problematic material , ; also see . He has attacked material properly sourced to an academic work published by a major academic press as "original research", apparently because he doesn't like it. He shows no willingness whatsoever to follow even the most basic of Misplaced Pages's content policies. It's POV and OR all the way.

Arad has tag-teamed with Xashaiar to repeatedly add or restore material that consists of unsourced personal commentary., , ; also .

In addition, Nepaheshgar (talk · contribs), another editor with a long history of Iranian nationalist disruption, has repeatedly copied-and-pasted huge chunks of material from an external (non-reliable) website in plain violation of copyright, despite requests and warnings., , .

In view of this disruptive behaviour and apparent total rejection of basic editing rules, I'd suggest blocking these three disruptive editors. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

A block of Arad is certainly warranted, and possibly Xashaiar as well. This is nationlist POV-pushing at totally offtopic articles, pure and simple. Moreschi (talk) 21:38, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

But the people whom ChrisO has reverted are not restricted to Arad and me. There are three other non-Iranian editors who did add Cyrus Cylinder and ChrisO reverted. Please see my comment below. Xashaiar (talk) 22:12, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

What makes it worse is the fact that they're aware of the content policies (NPOV, V and the rest) - they simply don't want to follow them. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:40, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, some highly tendentious editing here. (The copyvio was a quite blatant copy-and-paste even down to the oddities of commentary on the website). --Folantin (talk) 21:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

1)

In defense of myself against the accusations of ChrisO. An uninvolved admin can look at my wikipedia record and compare it to ChrisO who lost his administrationship for constantly violating wikipedia laws. I have edited Misplaced Pages for a long time and do not have a single block. ChrisO has blocks and actually lost his administrationship. So his characterization of me is at least suprising.

2)

As per the false accusation of copy right violation. I simply quoted many books.

A) Frye, Danmadayev, Plato, Talbott, Curtis , Woods, Laursen and most of those quotes are not in the website. Approximately 70-80% of these quotes are not in the website

B) The website is quoting books and those books do not belong to the website. I might not have a complete understand of Misplaced Pages copy right laws, but if a website quotes couple of sentences from a Book, and I mention the same book, does that book belong to the website? C) These quotes exist outside the website. The website has no copy right over them. They are from books, some of them even passed their copy right dates. Quoting some sentences from a book is not a violation of wikipedia copy right. Since when does a random website gets copy right over books? No such thing was mentioned in the website that the article has copy right over the books it is quoting.

D) Not a single sentence from the author of that website is mentioned. Only some of the quotes he has used were also used by me. There is no proof I am quoting him or he is quoting me.

E) We can find exact wikipedia articles in many websites.. does that mean it should be deleted.

The actual quotes are here

As far as I can tell, I did not copy sentences from the author of that website. And if this needs to go any further, I have complete copy right over that website since I know the author and he has granted me rights to use any information on his website that I feel like using. I'll be happy to CC the relevant admin or even give them the contact of that author to verify this. However, I only used 5-6 quotes from the books that were quoted by that author and that author has no copy right over those books.

3) ChrisO has threatened several users with banning them. This is at least harrassment.

4) To re-emphasize, I did not even once edit the article. I am just quoting WP:RS sources. The article needs simply mediation from an uninvolved user. Thanks. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Nope. You simply copied and pasted material you found on an unreliable web-site verbatim. --Folantin (talk) 21:50, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

You can repeat the same thing. However: A) As mentioned, that author has given me permission to use the material.

B) Most of my quotes were not from that website. Plato, Frye, Danmadayev, Talbott, Laursen and many others.

C) I copied the same sentences quoted in the books quoted by that author in that website, but quoting those same books is not a copy right violation as far as I know, since those books do not belong to the authors. It is no different than quoting google books. That is searching google books for a specific book and quoting couple of sentences from it. The author of that website has no copy right over those books just like no one in wikipedia has copy rights over most google book searches, but they are quoted. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Also using the term "Iranian nationalists" is racist as the author is trying to oppose the viewpoint of others by simply labeling their background. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Bull. You and others are simply repeating an Iranian nationalist meme dating back to the Shah. The others I expect no less from but you know better. You also know better than to cry racist, which I deeply resent. Moreschi (talk) 21:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec)So where is this permission? Unless we have it in writing here it doesn't count. Not that it's a reliable source in any case. Plus, you clearly never read the original sources because you never noticed how they had been edited tendentiously. And "Iranian nationalism" is an ideology not a race. Such ideologues certainly exist on Misplaced Pages. --Folantin (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

To Moreschi: No sir, generalizing all Iranians who disagree with some of point of view and then calling them "Iranian nationalists" is racist. The author above constantly refers to my ethnicity and calls me "Iranian nationalists". I do not feel comfortable when someone keeps pointing to my ethnicity when they write negative messages. Do I constantly refer to his background if I disagree with them? Note some of the users ChrisO r.v.'ed were not even Iranians. Plus if I clearly stated that Cyrus Cylinder is not a charter of human rights as it is anachronism. If my patriotic feeling overwhelmed my unbiased reasoning, then I would not make such a statement. So I feel uncomfortable for someone to constantly refer to my background when making negative reports. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 22:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

@Folantin: 1) If any moderator is concerned, I'll be happy to share that website's owner phone number and they can contact him directly and will be happy to give my name , so they can ask the website owner. 2) Some of my quotes are the same that website, but those those quotes were made available before that existence of that site. 3) The books mentioned are not owned by the website. Just like quoting google books is not a copy right violation, then quoting books mentioned by websites is not a violation of copy right. . If they are, then please provide me the link where it says: "One may not quote books that are quoted by websites". And give me a moderator's name, two or four, or whoever you trust, we can email the owner of that website in a CC with the discolure of my name and ask them if I have permission to use his material. Again though, there is no copy right violation, since the website does not own those books. Also please read the title of the thread. The user does not say: "Users uphelding Iranian nationalism" and some of the people he reverted were not Iranians....--Nepaheshgar (talk) 22:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)--Nepaheshgar (talk) 22:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

(out dented)There are few points that the editors should consider

1. giving the title "iranian nationalist" is basically what wikipedia ask not be used so often. That is called "ad hominem" and considered PA. (chrisO has done this in the talk page PA+AD HOMINEM)
   1. even so, the question is: is it true that the inclusion of Cyrus Cylinder in the article on Human right an Iranian nationalist act? I do not think so. The reason: The sources we have provided (cf. the talk page Talk:Human rights#Cyrus Cylinder) are non Iranian. It is very difficult for me to see those non-Iranian writers as Iranian nationalist POV. (non-iranian opinion of Ann Mayer and others).
2. the accusation "Arad has tag-teamed with Xashaiar to repeatedly" is just strange if not ridiculous. The reasons: 1. The meeting on the talk page of Human right is the first time I see him. There is no single other ocasion that we have edited together. 2. I made the following point: Cyrus Cylinder is worth mentioning there because of A1: the texts of document itself. A2: there are numerous sources, especially authororities of human right organisations and legal experts, that mention that.
3. the user ChrisO is doing "admin shopping". He invited two other users to that page and they were not involved at all before the discussion. After this he made the falsification that WP:CONS had been reached. How when in the talk page at least 5 people already involved said: "they agree with incusion but with less emphasis". Isn't wikipedia supposed to work honestly?
4. what I suggested was: Let us remove the entire ancient history section. But ChrisO did some OR and added Akbar the Great and removed Cyrus the great.(the beggining of ChrisO edit war (against not me, not arad, not any iranian, bur against jagged85), ChrisO removes jagged85 edit, addition of his OR, removal of Arad edits, and so on).
5. I am not sure if I can be called Iranian nationalist, but I am sure the editors involved and have add Cyrus Cylinder to the article are not Iranian nationalist and therefore this accusation based on nationaism does not work. (Note jagged 85 added the materials and he is not Iranian, this person too).

I am not sure if anybody has doubts that ChrisO has a certain POV and it is almost impossible to discuss the matters with him... Xashaiar (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I note that you're not disputing that the material which you and Arad have repeatedly added is unsourced personal commentary, or that you've repeatedly been asked not to add original research or unverifiable material to articles. There is no POV involved in asking editors to follow basic content policies. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Look you falsified WP:CONS and edited with the edit summary (according to cons) and you do accuse me and arad on being teamed when you asked uninvolved editors to come in and agree with you. Even worse you have reverted at least 2 other non-iranian addition of cyrus the great and instead you ask the adimns about me and arad because we are pushing nationalist pov? what about others who disagree with them? And one more thing you should not PA. About sources "we have non iranian sources that discuss Cyrus cylinder and none of them are Iranian" why cant we include? You know better that everybody that sources are ready for incusion but "YOU DO NOT ALLOW CYRUS THE GREAT IN THAT ARTICLE" but "DO LIKE TO SEE AKBAR THE GREAT". ARE M. Leney, Ann Elizabeth Meyer, ... not enough sources? your POV pushing and very strange PA and eurocentric view (see the talk page of Human right) is beyond understanding. And quite interestingly Josef Wiesehofer who is by no means Iranian has mentioned and sumarized the traditional view of people (not necessarily himself) on Cyrus the Great and the role of Cyrus Cylinder in this view by

Many scholars have read into these last sentences a confirmation of the Old Testament passages about the steps taken by Cyrus towards the erection of the Jerusalem temple and the repatriation of the Judaeans, some even going so far as to believe that the instructions to this effect were actually provided in these very formulations of the Cyrus Cylinder. In any event, the clemency Herodotus ascribed to Cyrus, the aptitudes Xenophon saw in him, his mission according to the Old Testament and his piety as described in the Babylon inscription – all combine in the eyes of many observers to form a harmonious character study of the first Persian king.

— Ancient Persia 2001

Now compare this and the ChrisO interest in adding Akbar the Great. If using this quote and traditional view is not allowed and OR then ChrisO edit about akbar the great is even worse. I also note what Ann Elizabeth Mayer said "..although it does not use the language of human rights, the ancient cylinder comprises ideas that are related to modern concepts of rights" (page 8 (this is legal point of view and directly involved in human rights academy)," Now it might be said that she is not ancient Iranian expert, right. But I offered ChrisO to let these be mentioned and he can add the view of A. Kuhrt who criticizes the traditional view. I am not able to understand why so many sources and well established traditional view should be negleted just because some modern scholars call "cyrus cylinder" a propaganda document. Having said these, I would like to ask the admins to give ChrisO a topic ban for A: His PA and ad hominem (PA+PA+PA+...) B. His POV pushing almost constantly on Cyrus Cylinder (see Cyrus Cylinder history page. More recently on this subject: He made quite a story on the word "emperor" because he says "cyrus was not an emeror") C: Disagreeing with many editors and reverting 5 people (Only me and arad seem to be Iranian but ChrisO claimes that the incusion of cyrus Cylinder is "work of we Iranian nationalists" for example 2 non-Iranian editors did add Cyrus Cylinder: edit at 20:25, 17 October 2009 by User:Pfhorrest and older edit at 19:44, 28 September 2009 by User:Jagged 85 and probably more if we see the history page of Human rights) and call their edits "iranian nationalist edits". D. Falsifying WP:CONS (here) E. Doing admin shopping. Xashaiar (talk) 22:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

User:ChrisO violating 3rr and threatening to ban users

A) The user has reverted 5-6 time in one day.

1st,

2nd,

3rd,

4th,

5th,

He has been blocked before violating 3rr, so is well aware of the rules. B) The user has threatened banning other users (without the appropriate medium).

Can a user threaten another user with a "final warning"?

Here he refers to a banned user and threatens the same:

I find it ironic to have to report ChrisO, because when it comes to inserting unreliable nationalistic content into Misplaced Pages (like calling the Cyrus Cylinder as a charter of the 20th century concept of human rights), I commend users. However I believe this does not give people the right to violate 3rr or threaten other users with a ban. No one is above the law. Since I'll be taking a wiki break, it is unfortunate I had to do this report at this juncture but no one is above the law and the law for breaking rulers should be applied.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 23:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I will leave this to others to decide, but the issue at hand is the removal of wholly unsourced personal original research, which your fellow nationalists repeatedly added despite being asked not to. You have not denied that the material was unsourced POV OR, violating every basic content policy. Repeatedly ignoring basic content policies is grounds for blocking, as I pointed out to you. The same material was removed for the same reason by Folantin , and Moreschi . Misplaced Pages is not the place to publish your personal viewpoints. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree.. Misplaced Pages is not a palce for WP:OR (although I am not confirming or denying any OR). However violating 3rr and threatening users with a ban is unacceptable behaviour. Also I did not even edit the article once, but you reported me. This behaviour scares other users from participating in the talkpage itself and creates an atmosphere were if there is a disagreement, they will be labelled by their ethnicity. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, it certainly might have been better if Chris had come here and asked for help rather than reverting so many times. Unsourced is an exception to 3RR that only arises in BLP issues. I'm not sure the rest of what Chris says is a defense to 3RR. Not that the content is very wonderful. And 3RR is kinda a bright line here.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

3rr is a law and this is not a WP:BLP article. I accept fair enforcement for anyone that breaks the laws of wikipedia. Even Jimbo himself (no disrespect to Jimbo of course). --Nepaheshgar (talk) 23:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm minded to agree, I'm just being cautious in case there is something obvious that I missed.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I accept that I might have overstepped the line inadvertently there, for which I apologise. I can only say that I lost track. But is anyone going to do anything about the disruptive behaviour of Arad, Nepaheshgar and Xashaiar? Repeatedly and wilfully adding unsourced original research and violating copyright is crossing an even brighter line. They were asked not to do it, they were notified of the policy requirements, but they did it anyway, repeatedly, and they show no sign of acknowledging their error. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

On the issue that ChrisO says " which your fellow nationalists repeatedly added despite being asked not to.." is wrong. Because Jagged85 is not iranian nationalist, but did add cyrus cylinder, and chrisO reverted and the other user Pfhorrest who is not iranian but added again Cyrus Cylinder and ChrisO reverted. Still he claims "xashaiar and arad are nationalists who add this". Interesting. ChrisO you have reverted many and only two are Iranian. Xashaiar (talk) 23:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

See here:

If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it.

So, if sticking to 3RR would do damage to Misplaced Pages you can ignore it. It must, of course, be the case that almost no reasonable editor would disagree with the "damage" that is being repaired. If you make that judgement and you get referred on the basis of 3RR violation then it should be a reasonable defense to say that you reverted damaging edits provided that the nature of the reverted edits is not in question. Count Iblis (talk) 23:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I am reluctant to apply IAR to 3RR, because the exceptions have been thrashed out and routine use (and this is routine) of IAR would gut the rule. I'm minded to consider a short block.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I should point out that there is no dispute, even from the editors concerned, that the material in question was unsourced personal original research (and I might add that the first version of that material relied on a hoax translation). I would hope that nobody would dispute that the addition of such material is damaging to the project's credibility. The article in question is top or high-importance for five WikiProjects and is part of the content that we are distributing to schools, so it should be treated with some care. This is not simply a content dispute: it's a question of whether editors should be allowed to add their own unsourced personal views to high-profile, high-priority Misplaced Pages articles. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

But darn it, Chris, you've been around here long enough to know that there are other ways of handling it. We do have a few admins still, even with your no longer having the bit. You don't have to save the world yourself, let others help.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

To Chriso: you said above "the material in question was unsourced personal original research" this is wrong. you do not let any source be added look at the section on it. There are sources that indicate view in favour of humanitarian aspects of Cyrus Cylinder and YES there are views rejecting that. The point is that 1. You push only for you POV which is "to reject the former view" 2. You did PA several times. 3. You did violate 3rr. 4. You did "ad hominem" and call all edits adding Cyrus Cylinder "Iranian nationalists disruptive edits" (when 3 out of all 5 involved are not Iranian). Xashaiar (talk) 00:10, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

And how many of those admins have done a single damn thing in the thread above? Nepaheshgar has posted his usual wall of text, and everyone else has - as usual with this individual - said "tl;dr" and moved on. AN/I is useless for this sort of thing. This thread demonstrates that point. An accusation of 3RR gets everyone running around. An undisputed report of serial OR-pushing, POV-pushing and copyright violation gets the sound of crickets chirping. If nothing else, it shows where AN/I's priorities lie. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, blocks are not supposed to be punitive. ChrisO did not count his reverts, something that happened to me a long time ago when I was reverting a few sceptics on the Global warming page. I was referred here, but I was not banned. I explained how it happened and I also offered not to edit that page for a few days. Thing is that when I was referred here people knew about the problem, so others could keep the page in the watchlist. In this case, ChrisO could focus on other wiki articles while others could take a look at the problem articles ChrisO was dealing with. Count Iblis (talk) 00:10, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

• Edit warring is not excused in a content dispute, even when you are right. Please don't use reverting to solve problems. For good faith disagreements, seek third opinion or mediation. For bad faith issues, file a request at arbitration enforcement, as that article is covered by at least one ruling, if memory serves. No block is needed because ChrisO has agreed to stop reverting. Jehochman 00:11, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest that we block the whole bunch for edit warring. I know, that is a less bright line, but how often has it been in and out? Or is this warning enough for all of you to leave the unsourced statement out (so blocking either of you is not necessary as you will not damage the article further) until consensus is reached on the talkpage (something you clearly do not have)? --Dirk Beetstra 00:13, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

No you cannot block users who have not even edited the actual article. if that was the case then other users (5-6) have edited the article.

Note to the moderator. ChrisO states: " But is anyone going to do anything about the disruptive behaviour of Arad, Nepaheshgar and Xashaiar? Repeatedly and wilfully adding unsourced original research and violating copyright is crossing an even brighter line. ". I did not edit the main page of the article once. I just entered the discussion page today and have no intention continue. As per copyright, I just quoted books that the owner of the website has mentioned, and he has no copy right over those books. I do not see it any different than quoting google book texts, since I am not quoting the text of the website outside of those books. However, just to end this accusation. The moderator can email me, I will be happy to give the phone of the owner of the website and my full name, and they can ask that owner via phone if I have the right to use his material. Either way, the material is not currently in the webpage and I did not further engange in restoring it. So I restate, the copy right violation is false.

However, I would be happy for a clarification. If a website quotes some books (say 5 books), can I also quote those 5 books (few sentences)? The website has no copy right ownership on those book. How is it different than using google books which also has many books and people constantly quote it? However as I stated, no one is above the law. ChrisO broke 3rr and content dispute is no reason to break 3rr. There are other mediums that needs to be followed if the user thinks someone is breaking WP:OR. Rfc and mediation is recommended. I have been through many debates but my record in wikipedia is clear. Because one thing I do follow is the laws of Misplaced Pages. Thank you.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I've blocked Chris for 12 hours, which I consider a bit of a slap on the wrist, and seems quite willing to do it again, thus it is hopefully preventative of the next time. As I am about to leave here and may not be back at my computer until the morning, if he appeals, I waive any need for the reviewing admin to confer with me. Now, someone look at what the other users were doing there, I'd say.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Again I expect that the laws of Misplaced Pages with regards to WP:3rr be fully enforced. Why does a user that has violated 3rr before get 12 hours and not the standard 24 hours? Users who violate it more than once get at least 24 hours. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:19, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Be careful what you wish for. It takes at least two to edit war. Three reverts is not an entitlement. If a team of accounts works together to trap a lone editor offsides, the team members may be blocked for edit warring. Jehochman 00:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but I did not even edit the main page of the article. However based on normal patterns, I have noticed users usually get 24 hours for 3rr. If they have repeatedly violated it before, it is at least 24 hours. I have no personal feelings relative to how long ChrisO is blocked, but it does bother me a little that users get different length of punishments for the same violations. However it only bothers me a little, since Misplaced Pages is not real life. However, hopefully in a just society, everyone is equal in the eye of the law. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I have unblocked ChrisO. Like Jehochman says, it takes two to edit war, and there was just one who crossed the red line. Nepaheshgar, what you are asking for is punishment. Please be aware that you were warring as well. --Dirk Beetstra 00:26, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I did not edit war. I did not even edit the mainpage. If someone else did, it is their responsibility. But if a user is given only 2 minutes for break 3rr (or in this case 5rr), then that is really unfair to all other users in wikipedia. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:34, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not some online game with strict rules. Count Iblis (talk) 00:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not surprised there's confusion by now - the usual wall of text posted by Nepaheshgar hasn't helped. To summarise:

• Arad (talk · contribs) and Xashaiar (talk · contribs) have tag-teamed to add unsourced POV original research, promoting a fringe nationalist theory, to Human rights (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and History of human rights (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), despite being asked to follow basic content policies: , , , , ; also see , . Neither shows any willingness to even acknowledge the existence of WP:V, WP:NPOV or WP:OR.
• Nepaheshgar (talk · contribs) has repeatedly violated copyright by copying and pasting a tract from an unreliable third-party nationalist website, despite being asked to follow basic copyright policies: , , . He does not acknowledge that copying and pasting the entire contents of a third party web page is a likely copyright violation.

Moreschi (talk · contribs) concurs above that a block of at least Arad and Xashaiar is required. There is every indication that they simply do not accept Misplaced Pages's fundamental content requirements and are therefore likely to continue this behaviour if they are not given a clear incentive not to do so. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:38, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

• Please note that I have indef blocked arad, Xashaiar and Nepaheshgar for their disregard of WP policy and their concerted efforts to have ChrisO blocked for attempting to apply policy in their contentious editing. I am content for any and all sanctions to be lifted or varied upon the above parties agreeing to conduct themselves appropriately in this matter. I will also take any brickbats for acting in this manner. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:53, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

  I was rapidly coming to the same conclusion on reviewing this situation. All three of them are behaving ridiculously, and while ChrisO did violate 3RR it was in combatting some particularly egregious policy violations. ~ mazca 00:58, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

  Isn't indef a bit harsh for Nepaheshgar? The user has been editing since March 2006 with no other blocks on record. Equazcion (talk) 03:58, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Brah. Vo. I'm going to email LHvU a beer as the only one with the fortitude and good sense to cut through the crap. To the rest of you -- shame on you for prioritizing blind adherence to policy over the credibility of Misplaced Pages. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm thinking blocks were needed too. That said, I think it's inappropriately unhelpful to make an inflammatory comment like "the rest of you - shame on you for prioritizing blind adherance to policy over the credibility of Misplaced Pages". Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:36, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Ncmvocalist as regards the comment by Short Brigade Harvester Boris. The duty of administrators is to enforce policy neutrally, not to decide content disputes with their tools because they decide that a particular version of an article is best for the "credibility of Misplaced Pages". That's called abuse of admin tools, and people are being desysopped for this, as they should be. (I'm not saying that any such abuse occurred in the present case.)  Sandstein  06:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I note that the level three and four user talk templates concerning original research, unsourced material and the deliberate introduction of errors does warn editors that they can be blocked if they persist with such edits. This isn't simply a "content dispute" - it's about whether editors should be allowed to repeatedly add unsourced, factually erroneous personal commentaries into high-profile articles. That's a policy not a content issue - it's disruptive by definition. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:13, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad ChrisO finally got some support to help protect WP against destructive elements. I'm baffled that anyone actually did block him. 82.33.48.96 (talk) 11:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I would comment that Chris could have handled this better, since he is not the only editor on Misplaced Pages. Posting here at AN/I would be far better than a gross violation of 3RR. His recent comments are post hoc rationalizations which put into question his statement of apology that got him unblocked. He for certain should not be commenting on Nepaheshgar's block, which raises WP:BATTLEGROUND issues, he is far from blameless here, by his supposed own admission, and should not post as if he were otherwise.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I did post here at AN/I and nobody took a blind bit of notice until Nepaheshgar started complaining about 3RR. Far from being "post-hoc rationalizations", my comments relate to what Jehochman has pointed out just below my own comments - "This matter has been festering for well over a year. Many warnings and much advice has been given." Nepaheshgar is an editor with a long history of problematic behaviour. The fact that admins have up to this point either not got involved or chosen to look the other way does not mean that there is no problem. Unfortunately I think an arbitration case is now inevitable, which will be a further waste of everyone's time. There is no WP:BATTLEGROUND involved; this is purely a case of a collective failure to deal adequately with aggressive nationalist POV-pushing. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm just an uninvolved admin; that may be so. But still, you should have asked for help. Judging from the response here, you are not a voice crying in the wilderness.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Chris. This failure to deal with tendentious editing has been going on for far too long. --Folantin (talk) 12:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I've just been reading the ArbComm decision that caused ChrisO to resign as an admin and during which he was desysoped anyway. The thing is, his behavior here fits the pattern that lost him his bit perfectly. Cowboy actions, only he can save Misplaced Pages, etc. This is a collaborative enterprise. I don't know whether Chris has any plans to ask ArbComm for his bit back or not, but as they would certainly look at the circumstances surrounding his block by me, I will say this: I see nothing that indicates he's learned a thing from the experience. I regret that and hope it will change. But he had no business coming close to breaking 3RR given his history, let alone grossly exceeding it. If the edits from the other side are problematic, get someone else to look at it. If Chris figures this out, then maybe sometime the cowboy will get his spurs and his badge back. Just a suggestion.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:40, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I have no intention of asking for the return of the bit and I wouldn't accept it if it was handed to me on a plate. It got me nothing but threats and stalking on and off-wiki, abuse by malicious individuals, and all too often disinterest from admins who prefer to walk past on the other side of the road when problems are raised. This thread is a perfect illustration of that. No uninvolved editors here took a blind bit of notice of the problems that I raised here with Nepaheshgar et al until they started complaining about 3RR. One lesson I learned from five and a half years as an admin is that unless something involves a bright-line issue like 3RR or obvious vandalism, most admins either don't want to know, aren't interested in helping or think it's too much trouble for them to get involved in it. It's that kind of thing that has led to entire areas of Misplaced Pages - such as our Iranian articles - being taken over by aggressive nationalist POV-pushers who get away with atrocious editing, off-wiki stalking and threats of violence because nobody wants to get involved. If you spend your time on Pokémon articles you'll probably be fine, but if you try to deal with systematic bad editing in a contentious article which few people care about you learn pretty soon that you're largely on your own. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I've said my piece and obviously we disagree here. I suggest we mark this thread resolved and move on with building an encyclopedia.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Good idea... -- ChrisO (talk) 14:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Block of Nepaheshgar

I'm coming here from CAT:RFU after reading Nepaheshgar's second unblock request at User talk:Nepaheshgar#Mistake. Like Equazcion above, it is not very clear to me from the above discussion what Nepaheshgar has done that warrants an indef block. ChrisO, above, says that he "has repeatedly violated copyright by copying and pasting a tract from an unreliable third-party nationalist website, despite being asked to follow basic copyright policies: , , ." I don't consider these talk page edits to be copyvios, rather, they are selective quotations from various sources to support a contested edit. No matter what the actual merits of the edit may be, that is surely allowed under fair use, and actually good talk page practice. Are there any other grounds for a block of Nepaheshgar?  Sandstein  06:48, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Even if it were a copyvio (and I agree that it's not -- he only posted material to the talk page for consideration), I don't think this one instance of frustration is indicative that the user would continue being a problem in the future. It's not like he's suddenly turned into a vandal. Considering his editing history, a temporary block (if any) seems more appropriate. Equazcion (talk) 07:10, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The material that Nepaheshgar posted was copied-and-pasted verbatim from this web page on the Rozaneh Magazine website. That most certainly is a copyvio. It was pointed out repeatedly by Folantin (talk · contribs), to no effect. To be honest, an indef block is overdue for Nepaheshgar - his block log does not reflect the quality of his editing, as he has been getting away with bad editing and tendentious behaviour for a long time. I first came across this editor when writing Battle of Opis this time last year. He behaved then in the same way that he is behaving now - pushing Iranian nationalist POV, promoting original research, misusing sources by quote mining, using unreliable sources, distorting policy, and posting great walls of text in support of tendentious arguments. He suffers from a chronic case of WP:IDONTHEARYOU. You can see something of this behaviour above, lots of it at Talk:Human rights#Cyrus Cylinder and more of it at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-06 Battle of Opis. Note in particular this comment by Akhilleus.

Nepaheshgar usually gets away with this because (a) he largely confines his depradations to Iran-related articles and (b) his wall-of-text approach means that people usually give up arguing with him ("tl;dr"). Unfortunately the nationalists appear to have largely taken ownership of articles about Iran/Persia. During the course of this affair I have received several e-mails from editors who (in the words of one) are "sick and worn out dealing with the Iranian nationalists" and I'm aware of at least one editor, whom I trust, who has received physical threats by phone - i.e. someone went to the trouble of tracking him down - after trying to intervene in this topic area. Nepaheshgar is a bad editor and an arbitration case waiting to happen, but he appears to be only the tip of a very ugly iceberg - at least as bad as the current Eastern European arbitration case and quite likely worse given the apparent willingness of some editors to threaten or imply physical violence. Note this comment from Nepaheshgar: "I am not here to waste my time and neither I am scared of any threat. Trust me I lived during the Iran-Iraq war and what happens in Misplaced Pages is a joke relative to that. And you are free to come to my house and see my exercise equipment and general fitness to understand that I do not fear threats."

I strongly advise against unblocking him. Nothing good would come of it. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

If any administrator has doubts about the block, ask Less for an explanation, and wait for an answer before acting. If there is a unilateral unblock, I will recommend arbitration. This matter has been festering for well over a year. Many warnings and much advice has been given. Jehochman 09:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Jonathan, I did note on my block rationales that if a reviewing admin wished to vary or lift the sanctions imposed they need not require my input. However, while I will of course provide a detailed rationale if requested, my primary considerations is that these are indefinite, as in may be removed sooner rather than later and were designed to stop a campaign to get another party blocked in what is a content dispute (and by reference to that party's history - a desysopping - to smear them, which is something that does not sit well with me). When a blocked party agrees that dispute resolution, per policy, and not attacks upon other disputants is the appropriate process to follow then they can be unblocked with my blessings. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I have unblocked. The user has apologized and indicated he will not do what he did again. There is no justification, then, for keeping the block in place, since such blocks are not punitive. I assume GF, and consider also the previously clean block log.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO, suggest you request arbitration or arbitration enforcement to deal with this tendentious editing. Don't let matters fester any longer. Jehochman 13:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

That's a much better road than 5RR.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:44, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Which arbitration case would cover this for enforcement purposes? -- ChrisO (talk) 14:02, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. If you can't find one, request arbitration. Jehochman 18:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Simply disgusting

As one administrator put it: . The whole thing disgusts me, having read it again. It gives ammo to those who say that Misplaced Pages is run for the benefit of a favored few. Thank you for throwing some sanity into the mix. 1)

ChrisO has a long history of attacking me. Here is an example of a personal attack : "If Nepaheshgar is involved, that's an instant warning sign that crank fringe theories are being pushed somewhere... -- ChrisO (talk) 23:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)"

2)

In my first edit to the talkpage of the article I called for RfC and mediation! Look here: "I am not going get involved more, but I hope Xashiyar or Arad can first list some of the 30-50 sources (not about the Cylinder necessarily but Cyrus himself) (also use other search words instead of "human rights") and then call for a general Rfc or mediation."

Indeed I never got involved in the mainpage.

3) One user brought up a firovolous charge of violating copy right violation! This was false because: A) 70-80% of what I had was not the same as the website. B) I copied the quotes from books that are quoted in the website. But that website has no copy right ownership to those books. It is no different than quoting google books. C) However if there is a problem with A) and B), I have fully copy right to the article in that website and I told the user he can get three admins or more, they can email me, I will provide my name and also the name and number of the writer and owner of that article. They can call him and confirm if I can do what I want with regards to his article. However as noted I did not copy the article but books quoted by the article and no more than 3-4 sentence from each of those books quoted by the article. Of course the user that made this frivolous charges just repeated the same thing. But admin Sandstein expressed doubt about the charge as well. And another admin agreed: "Even if it were a copyvio (and I agree that it's not -- he only posted material to the talk page for consideration), I don't think this one instance of frustration is indicative that the user would continue being a problem in the future. It's not like he's suddenly turned into a vandal. Considering his editing history, a temporary block (if any) seems more appropriate"

Note on the "vandal" comment, I did not even edit the mainpage.

4)

The other was obvious favioratism by some of the admin and it goes back to simple corruption and favors and etc. Which is not supposed to take place in Misplaced Pages. If a user calls me an Iranian nationalist (I do not want a user who has been accused by others of racism to refer to my ethnicity as it has nothing to do with editing), then it is okay for me to label him "X supremacist"? I told him before I do not appreciate such labels. Exactly what do I need to do from users abusing their privilidges and labeling other users based on their ethnicity? If he is allowed to label, then I am allowed to label him a "X supremacist"? Even if (assuming) I believe he holds such ideology, am I allowed to label them?

5)

Up to now I had a clean record in wikipedia but I was given a permanent ban for refering to a users past behaviour. The reason I made this reference is that the user falsely tried to make a past record for me, when I had none. I had argued with the user before but I agreed to Rfc and mediation and accepted the results. That is how wikipedia works. In my first edit to the talkpage, I also called for RfC and mediation. Yes we went to a content based mediation before. Content-dispute based mediation is exactly the way to solve problems.

6)

Unlike what one admin claims, the user who does not have admin power threaten to ban people. This is in direct violation of wikipedia law. Here he refers to a banned user whom he has dealt with before and threatens the same:

What does a former ban user have to do with me and why should that be evoked? That is creating an atmosphere of intidimation (which I am not intimidated the least).

7)

The user tries to link me to some Iranian nationalist whom he claims has made a threat to someone unknown person! That is no different than me relating him to the people that practiced apartheid. This is racism, because he is implying that I am the type that makes these threats. One can say : "User that has the opinion of nationalism", but to directly attach ethnic labels to negative reports and negative sentences is not in the spirit of courtesy but more like WP:Battle. Specially if one does not know the person in real life. I am not a racist nor a nationalist in the sense that ChrisO implies.

8)

Overall, as the neutral admin put it, it was disgusting and it showed favioratism. An indefinite block for users who are not in the "crowd" is a disgusting example of such a favioratism. Another person called me a vandal. Sir I did not even edited the article, how could I be a vandal? I made 0rr to the article yet I was given an indefinite block! My first message was about RfC and mediation! Ultimate source of corruption for any government, organization, society, online community and etc. is when favioratism occurs (for whatever reason including the case of probable common friendship or ethnicity or etc.). Eventually if is not stopped, the corruption can reach the highest level. So when the neutral admin states: The whole thing disgusts me, having read it again. It gives ammo to those who say that Misplaced Pages is run for the benefit of a favored few. Thank you for throwing some sanity into the mix.

He is totally correct. This sort of damage is much more than a silly content dispute which I asked for RfC and mediation.

Conclusion:

Despite all these and false accusations, I ask any unbiased person to go read my contributions to the article on human rights (I am sure out of 16000+ edits I have not been perfect but we are discussing a single article and if there is an arbcomm, I am sure out of the thousands of edits by the other side, they have not been perfect), I did not edit the main page nor violare 3rr or even 1rr or even 0rr. If they can show me exactly were I made a mistake, that would have been okay.

I just commented based on some scholarly sources and my first message was RfC and mediation! However due to favioratism (or possibly other biases) I got the short end of the stick while the only one that actually broke a wikipedia guideline got 2 minutes! Favioratism, lying and abuse of admin power is disgusting. I rather not see an arbcomm though due to unchivarlous behaviour behind a vga monitor. Big deal, it is all bits and bites (not physical ones), but this would be a waste of my time in real life. However if ChrisO goes that route and initiates an arbcomm, then obviously abuse of power and favioratism will be addressed and already two unbiased admins noted this abuse of power and favioratism. And in the end, the whole thing starts by blocking a user who has not even made a single contribution to the main page and actually agreed that CC is not a human rights charter, but there is not much difference between mentioning CG and Akbar Shah and in his first message called for an RfC and mediation!

Another user that edited the article has been around since 2005 (with a clear record) and did not violate any wikipedia guidelines that merited an indefinite ban. He has been in wikipedia for four years and has not been blocked

The user who constantly made the false accusation of copy right violation (and I can get even that website owner to give a call to each of the arbcomm members if necessary although I did not violate any copy right violations), and etc. will be involved. This would be a grand waste of time, and I won't be the only loser. The biggest loser will be the admins that abused their power and users that have been in previous arbcomm. However, I rather move on and eventually someone else will deal with the same sort of favioratism and will not let go as easily as me. Life is good, I am publishing papers, I have a lovely wife, and life is too short to waste behind a monitor. I'll take a good (possibly permanent wiki break), but eventually anything that is corrupt (favioratism as shown here) is digusting and will fall apart and that refers to a group of users proxying for each other and coming to support each other with comments, abusing admin power. So lets let go of the whole episode and close this thread. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 20:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

TLDR. But a hearty agree to closing this thread. Equazcion (talk) 21:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay. Usually when I read a paper to see if it is good, I read the first and last paragraph. Anyhow, lets move on. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

• I do not believe that ChrisO, Moreschi, Folantin, LessHeard, or Jehochman can be considered anything but involved, and their actions as such are highly inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Editor on a vandalism spree

Can someone help? This editor keeps on deleting content and leaving nasty comments. See and this uncivil comment. -- Rickymonitor (talk) 22:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't look like vandalism to me. PS. That user is an administrator. Equazcion (talk) 22:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Given the username and this diff, I have some suspicions...... Tim Song (talk) 22:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Blocked indef as abuse of alternate account (harassing another contributor - too familiar with WP policy and process not to have prior experience). Per Equazcion, I don't see any vandalism either of the target of the complaint. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, the user requested unblocking, which I declined. TNXMan 00:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

User:Fteds

Somebody may want to initiate a checkuser request on this one with an eye towards blocking the underlying IP range. The creation of articles is consistent with several other vandalism-only accounts over the last week. Of particular note is the inclusion of how to create a new article info as the text with the vandalism being in the article name. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 22:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

That IP range is too busy to make such a rangeblock feasible - while many of the editors on that range already have IP block exemptions, there's still several dozen that don't. Good suggestion, but unfortunately it's not practical in this case. Hersfold 23:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunate. I wondered if anybody else had noticed this trend. So the only solution is to wait for them to strike again and delete the pages as they appear? 98.248.33.198 (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Pointy, contentious editing by IP at List of Nobel Peace Prize laureates

64.252.139.2 (talk • contribs • info • WHOIS) made a semi-protected edit request to update the page with 2009 totals and claiming that the totals for 2008 were incorrect. ] (talk · contribs) serviced the request and asked for sources. I assume that was because of the claim that the existing totals were wrong. The user launched into a lengthy argument of why sources weren't needed, which was answered by ] (talk · contribs) who updated the totals but pointed out that the IP was mistaken. The IP continued his lengthy proof, ignoring ] (talk · contribs) request for sources, until finally Thesevenseas determined the source of the IP's confusion and explained it to him. (I didn't include links to the IP's 23 posts.) A few days later, as 64.252.124.238 (talk • contribs • info • WHOIS), the IP started haranguing the other editors again and asking for edits on the now unprotected page. I serviced that SPER and let him know that the page was unprotected and suggested that he learn from the mistake and move on.. He didn't take my advice and continued to abuse the other editors.. ] (talk · contribs) chimed in to no avail. Finally, today, I left a last response, pointed out again that the article was unprotected and that the discussion was no longer about improving the article.

All of that was preface. After my response today, the IP changed the article away from the correct 2009 totals, which was quickly reverted and explained. He again inserted what he knew to be incorrect, then asked ] (talk · contribs) to change it back. Can we block this user to discourage repeat performances? Celestra (talk) 22:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

What a kerfuffle! In servicing the original request, Celestra, I asked for sources so that I would not have to add unsourced information to the article, and because from a bit of a Google, it was not clear how the IP had arrived at their stated totals. I didn't go back to the page, so this is the first I've seen of the dispute. I did not look at the 2008 figures, because that wasn't the request - if the request had been 'please remove this incorrectly sourced information', then I expect I would have done so; the request was to add info, therefore I needed to "say where I got it".  Chzz  ►  22:54, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Same difference; I felt your request for a source was reasonable for a different reason. When I service a request to remove something that doesn't match the source, I generally check the source before I remove it, but I also try to avoid second guessing the requester when it's well away from the reason the page was protected. In this case, the tone of the request would have made me double check the accuracy. Celestra (talk) 23:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Latham & Watkins

Lots of POV-pushing going on at this article, which is a lightning rod for some reason. →Baseball Bugs carrots← 00:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Uninvolved viewpoint: A quick look at the history of this article reveals that User:Masslayoffs is repeatedly and persistently inserting a link to a blog site about a person who was laid off. This may be reason to suspect personal agenda pushing. Further, Masslayoffs is a WP:SPA, apparently created to insert this layoff blog link. The situation is, at the least, somewhat peculiar. Appropriate encouragement to avoid POV-pushing may be appropriate. —Finn Casey * * * 02:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

This is also not a new problem. This ended up on my watch list sometime last summer, for similar reasons. But there's been so much activity there I'm not sure how to weed it. →Baseball Bugs carrots← 05:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I had previously brought this up in late August and the link says there was an edit war going on there in May. So somebody's persistent. →Baseball Bugs carrots← 05:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Request for fair admin or clarification on wikipedia guidelines

I reported User:ChrisO for violating 3rr and threatening to ban users The user has reverted 5-6 time in one day.

1st,

2nd,

3rd,

4th,

5th,

He was given a 12 hour ban, but then the ban was lifted after two mintues. ]

I am suprised because a user who has violate 3rr before usually gets at least the minimum 24 hours. However in this case, not only was the ban demoted to 12 hours, but then from 12 hours it was demoted to two minutes. I am wondering which wikipedia guidelines allows such break of laws of Misplaced Pages? Do all users get such a treatment? Imagine if one is to run a country like this and some people are more above the law, than others. That would be totally chaotic. So further clarification is requested because I thought users who have violated 3rr usually get more than a 2 minute block. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:32, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Blocks are not meant to be for punishment. ChrisO acknowledged the mistake before he got blocked. He then promised to not do it again, so what damage are we stopping? --Dirk Beetstra 00:34, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to know from Nepaheshgar what "law" he is referring to, because I have never seen any laws on Misplaced Pages. Only policies and guidelines that arent meant to be strictly enforced, and are meant to be used with common sense and discretion. As Beetstra pointed out "blocks are not meant to be for punishment". We dont have "laws" that if you "break" you are "punished"; we have ways of doing things generally, and if you dont conform to them then the Community decides what is appropriate to make sure it doesnt happen again, there is no set punishment for a set law. Am I the only one who thinks that way, did I miss WP:NOTSTATUTE being removed?Camelbinky (talk) 03:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

As previously said - "while ChrisO did violate 3RR it was in combatting some particularly egregious policy violations" - that it the reason his block was lifted so quickly. If someone violates the letter of a rule while obeying the spirit of what Misplaced Pages is about they are much more likely to be treated sympathetically. Exxolon (talk) 03:53, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Procedural note - the originator of this thread is currently blocked Exxolon (talk) 03:57, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, in which of those diffs did ChrisO threaten to block anybody? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 04:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO isn't an admin, so he wouldn't be able to block. User:LessHeard vanU did the blocking, as a result of the thread above, "Iranian nationalist disruption of human rights articles". Equazcion (talk) 05:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO gave the editor a standard level4 vandal warning, in which the language refers to the possibility of a block - the editor then took this to be a threat, or has presented it as such. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

To answer your question, OP, quite honestly the "not punitive" argument is used much more liberally with administrators, former administrators, and well known community members than with others. Even if said editors are blocked, it is a useless venture as they will be shortly unblocked. Magog the Ogre (talk) 18:40, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

JDC808's image uploads

After coming across JDC808 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and a handful of image uploads that were either high resolution non-free images or untagged non-free images (none of which were necessary for the articles he added them to), I notified him of the issues with the images and that they would probably be deleted.

Then I came across the fact that nearly every single image he has uploaded that he has uploaded as non-free has no non-free image tag on it. There were maybe only four images that have proper licensing, and those were added after JDC808 had uploaded them and someone else saw that they had a proper use on Misplaced Pages and added the tag.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

This is true. See JDC808's uploads. Ryulong is correct, only about four of the images JDC808 has uploaded have valid lic tags. -FASTILY 02:58, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Well where in the world do I put the "proper licensing tag". I mean, when I upload the image, I try to put all the information that is being asked for and apparently, that's not enough information needed. So what else do I do? JDC808 (talk) 03:51, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

There should be a drop down menu below the "Summary" portion of the Upload page labelled "Licensing" (seen here) that you choose the proper licensing information for.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:34, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I've figured this out somewhat. This is still a bit new to me, so I may not get it right every time. I've added the licensing tag for images that I was able to. Some, like a picture of a building, I wasn't sure which tag to use. JDC808 (talk) 04:37, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you cannot find a proper tag, the image will be deleted.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Harrassment/disruption from User:Off2riorob

Following a disagreement concerning article categorisation (see ) where he proceeded to remove a categorisation without consensus, this user began to message me on my talk page, making accusations of meat-puppetry. Dismissing him simply as antagonistic, I told him that if he felt that was the case then he can go ahead and file a report, but warned him about edit-warring. I then asked him to stop contacting me, but he persisted in doing so, even after I warned him that I would report him for harrassment. Normally, I would tend to ignore a user who behaves in this way in the hopes that they will go and find something better to do with their time, but looking into his edit history, there is a large amount of previous violations. He has apparently been blocked at least 7 times this year alone for disruptive editing and general incivility towards other users (,,,). The most recent case was concluded less than 3 weeks ago and at present he is the subject of a 1RR per day limitation because of his disruptive tendencies. This guy obviously just won't learn, and here he is again making a nuisance out of himself. Obviously its all just a bit of a giggle to him, but given his history and blatant contempt for other editors and Misplaced Pages rules, his account needs to be blocked for a lengthier period to send a clear message that his behaviour is unacceptable. Kookoo Star (talk) 01:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Kookoo Star, do you think you can provide some diffs of what you feel is harassment on Off's part? You've provided a detailed history, but we'll need to see what the current issues are. Thank you. Basket of Puppies 01:49, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Puppies. It's all on my talk page as the user kept messaging me with baseless accusations and threats when I asked him to stop doing so (there's only that conversation there at present and its pretty self-explanatory). He made 15 edits/diffs to the page in less than an hour which became quite annoying. Like I said above, had it been almost anybody else I would have just left it, but this guy has a history of disruptive and antisocial behaviour. Do you want me to list all the diffs or just the ones he made after I told him to stop messaging me? Kookoo Star (talk) 02:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not involved in the issues, and have, in fact, never interacted with either of these editors. I have no reason to doubt the good intentions of all editors involved. However, when I checked the link to User talk:Kookoo Star, I was rather disappointed at the lack of genial atmosphere there. User:Off2riorob appears to have disregarded WP:AGF as well as basic civility standards. The accusations by Off2riorob are very odd and lack tact, even if they were true. Encouragement to act in a more becoming manner would be appropriate. Best wishes to all! —Finn Casey * * * 02:28, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Look in the history of the talk page. User:Off2riorob screwed around with the ordering of his comments after he started posting them just to make Kookoo Star look foolish.

Peace and Passion ☮  ("I'm listening....") 02:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

PS Here's the diff.

It appears that there may have been some inquiries of sock or meatpuppetry from Off2riorob. While this is not necessarily wrong to inquire, there seems to have been some forgetfulness of WP:AGF on behalf of the same. Off2riorob, please remember to assume good faith. If there is a significant concern of puppetry then I highly suggest you file it with the appropriate folks. Basket of Puppies 04:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

And if he's going to file a report he should just get on and do so, rather than baiting an editor who has asked him to stop posting on their talk page. 82.33.48.96 (talk) 11:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

Topic has been moved to the venue Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)—Strange things happening with a template. If you have any clue to what could be happening, please help there.... Peace and Passion ☮  ("I'm listening....") 03:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – user blocked. –Katerenka (talk) 07:38, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – no evidence of misconduct by Tvoz. Toddst1 (talk) 16:02, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – Article at AFD

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