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Admins taking drugs

Is this acceptable? It isn't only that they are on a highly dangerous drug, but that they are also editing while on it really bothers me, especially when they have ops. Is there any applicable guideline, standard, or tradition regarding this? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not taking into account that "is on acid" is most probably used figuratively in the sense of "very weird", it's hardly Misplaced Pages's place to dictate what intoxicants editors can partake in. Or, for that matter, even assess whether they are. — Coren  16:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Without commenting on my opinion, I think you are wrong about the figurative bit Coren: . Prodego 16:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not figurative. Chillum has also admitted to having a secret second account. You are not supposed to edit while drunk or using drugs, and I am concerned about what kinds of things may have happened. This user is an admin with ops, and admin are supposed to be neutral and have fair judgment. How do we know if a block didn't happen because of drug use or an unblock for the same? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

My original point remains, though. Enforcing random drug laws isn't what we're here for. Either the editor edits within policy in which case it's not an issue, or they do not in which case the reason is immaterial. — Coren  16:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

It's also possible that we have encountered an admin with a sense of humor. (Don't mind me. It's the drugs. Mostly caffeine at this point.) Antandrus (talk) 16:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

@OR: Besides, how do we know anything isn't done for the "wrong reason"? That someone makes a block or unblock because of a distraction in Real Life, for instance, or because they are tired? You can't. And there is no point in doing so even if we could: either the action was correct or it was not. — Coren  16:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Coren, drug laws do not matter as alcohol is legal. However, users are told not to edit while drunk, and drunk admin are bad. Acid is far more potent than alcohol in altering the ability to perceive correctly. I am asking about an -admin- having the ability to use admin abilities while taking drugs regularly as he has admitted. I am also asking for someone to check his secret account to ensure that there was no drug related impropriety. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Plus, Coren, this is a major PR nightmare. A reporter can easily attribute any problem that Chillum has been involved in to drug use, and there are hundreds just from this year. Chillum has been involved in a lot of controversial matters, for good or for bad. This compromised judgment is just the tip of the iceberg, especially in conjunction with his second secret account. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• Let's not blow this out of proportion; IIRC, it would be difficult for anyone under the influence of LSD to be even able to find enough keys to block or delete. I happily confess that I edit under the influence of drugs, and I find it helps to do so. Please stash the moral indignation unless and until it becomes an issue. Rodhullandemu 16:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

He could find the keys to type up a message saying he was high. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

LSD takes about half an hour to kick in fully. Rodhullandemu 16:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Were you a witness to these events? Can you verify that he took acid within a time frame that would allow him not to be high at the time of posting? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Franz Kafka, thou should'st be living now! Rodhullandemu 16:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I hope you realize that in posting that, you have exposed your argument as non-existent. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:11, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• Aside from all the very good reasons provided above to avoid overblown moral outrage, there is no indication that Chillum even edited while 'under the influence'. He made no edits between the placement of the notice and its removal . Based on the comments posted by Ottava Rima and Malleus Fatuorum in response to this trivial, teapot tempest, Chillum is not the editor whose conduct we need to be concerned about. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

He has a secondary account and has admitted such. Do you have knowledge of what that secondary account is? If so, provide the name to verify your statement that no edits have been made under it. If not, please strike it as being incorrect. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:45, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If you believe someone is using a second account abusively, you're at the wrong place. Otherwise, that's immaterial. If you believe that Chillum has taken problematic actions (regardless of why he did so) that didn't involve a separate account, you're still at the wrong place. If neither of these are true, why do you care? Seraphimblade 16:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

It is never the wrong place to ask a question. That was clear from the very top. Please don't make such claims and post off topic simply because you disagree with the question. Disruption like that is never appropriate and only means that you recognize that Chillum has acted inappropriately. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:11, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I've done some of my best coding while stoned, it is actually quite relaxing. Munchies are a problem though, as chip crumbs are a bitch to get out of a keyboard. Then there's the issues with memory, um...what were we talking about? Tarc (talk) 17:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The only thing that counts should be the editing output, not the mental state of the editor. If the editor does bad edits, we can revert/block/ban him regardless of his mental state. For what I know, you may all well be a Chinese room or a Boltzmann brain , but that's irrelevant. --Cyclopia 17:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Why so serious? I think admins should be allowed to be crack heads just as long as it doesn’t impair there vital duties.--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 17:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Mental state is 100% necessary for using admin ops. We have "trust" for a reason. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it silly season so soon? This is the most goofball non-issue on Misplaced Pages all day. November 1 must be the new April 1. If this is a joke, I think we've got it. If not, the thread is just a personal attack on Chillum and ought to be drawn to a close. On Misplaced Pages everyone is judged on the strength of their edits, not what they do in the privacy of their home, or what process their brain has been through to produce those edits. Indignation that somewhere a Wikipedian is doing something illegal, or that drug-taking Wikipedians are a threat to the project, is too farfetched to be worth any serious response. It may be unwise and undignified at a personal level, by some standards of decorum, to announce or joke about one's own drug-taking. But in other circles it's just fine, and we're not in any position to judge. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If the secondary account displayed unusual conduct while under the influence, I tend to think that account would be blocked or banned if the influence was problematic. If no one knows which account that is, as seems to be the case, then there is no apparent evidence that it has been used while the typer were intoxicated, and we would more or less have to AGF that it isn't. I can and do see some problems with Chillum admitting to having two accounts, and not indicating what they are, but that is a separate matter. thankgodcaffiencedoesn'tcountasbeinganintoxicatingdrugIdon'tknowhowI'dbeabletodoanythingwithoutit. :)John Carter (talk) 17:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

AGF only goes until there is evidence. ArbCom has the right to know about secondary accounts to verify that there is no impropriety, so an Arb could check to verify that there was no such problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I have already told you that if arbcom wants to know this information, they only need to ask me(they have not asked). Chillum 18:11, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed on that point - it's discouraged for anyone, particularly admins, to have secondary accounts. Although we've gone back and forth regarding whether this is a requirement or just an admonition, admins really ought to disclose and register their secondary accounts with a checkuser / arb to make sure they're on the up-and-up. Otherwise, way too much drama and potential for abuse. Other than perhaps the shared connection to a countercultural mindset, I don't see what socking has to do with drugs. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

(EC) So go ask them to, if you're concerned. Seraphimblade 17:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

(ec) OR, you have come here to Jimbo's talk page to publicise something that you yourself admit might become "a major PR nightmare". The original edit may well have been a joke. You pushed very hard towards getting it out of the twilight zone, but without success. We still don't know whether Chillum was just speaking figuratively and, upon being confronted by a hysterical editor pulled that editor's leg; or whether he was simply describing fact. It is not in Misplaced Pages's interest to know which is true, and it is not in Misplaced Pages's interest to treat Chillum's statement as a credible statement of fact on the single most effective page of the Wiki for getting such things into the papers.

From the other reactions on Chillum's talk page it should be clear to you by now that there is no general consensus to be hysterical about such things. Right things to do in this situation include contacting Arbcom privately, and they include making a general policy proposal on drug use by editors and admins and on writing about drug use. They do not include deliberately stirring drama in close proximity to the event. Please back off. Hans Adler 18:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like you guyz need to lighten up with some weed mon. I got the shit on my Talk page. Have a party!--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 18:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Weed on your talk page? OK, I will bring something that should help. Herbicidal Maniac 18:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Hans, it has already been proven by his multiple references that he was not talking figuratively. Please read all comments before responding in such a manner. Your use of "hysterical" in such a light is incivil and inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, consensus on his talk page? That is not only an inappropriate claim, but it is factually wrong. A few friends making disruptive claims about a direct action has nothing to do with appropriate admin actions. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I have read all the comments here and on Chillum's talk page. Has it spread anywhere else? What I have read is totally consistent with both of the scenarios that I have described. There are subcultures in which use of strong illegal drugs is considered stupid but not taboo and people may well use formulations such as "I am on acid" to express a state of mind that might be induced by entirely legal means such as falling in love. It seems clear to me that when Malleus fatuorum contacted Chillum on his talk page, Chillum primarily got the message "I disapprove of your relaxed attitude to drugs" and reacted to that message. We have no way of knowing whether his response was a statement of fact or an attempt to irritate Malleus further. His earlier response to Beeblebrox, which references "I like to chill out and smoke the herb" suggests to me that he wasn't serious. You need not agree, but it's a fact that we simply can't know what he meant. The same is true for his 16:03 response to Malleus: A paragraph with very nearly (note that "about me dropping" doesn't contain a verb) a confession, undermined by a silly trailing sentence, followed by "Seriously though, ...". And the last paragraph is a plain contradiction to what he says elsewhere ("the herb" – assuming he means cannabis – is in fact a class C drug in Canada).

Another indication that you are not sufficiently cool to read properly is your misunderstanding concerning consensus. I said that there is no consensus to be hysterical. That's clearly not the same as there being a consensus to be not hysterical. Which is why I proposed that you do something to work towards such a consensus, instead of trying to enforce a nonexistent consensus and create a "PR nightmare" on your way.

PS: I hate having to explain jokes, especially when I am not entirely sure they are jokes. Hans Adler 20:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

PPS: I just realised how strong an indication Chillum's (a confessed cannabis user's) claim to be using only class A drugs is that he was engaged in serious leg-pulling. Please compare:

• "Oh, and all the drugs I do are class A, I have no time for the b grade crap"
• "I like to chill out and smoke the herb." (Notes: I found no specific connection between the mysterious (to me) slang term "chill out" and acid. He explicitly referred to this line today. )

Hans Adler 20:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"of the scenarios that I have described." The scenarios you have described are not reflective of the reality, and you are making it seem like Chillum has a long history of making statements that are misleading and inappropriate. As such, your claims to protect him are making him look even more disruptive and untrustworthy. The appropriate response, if you were correct, is that Chillum should have stated "it was a joke". Instead, he has sparked a long dispute that has disrupted 4 different talk pages. People are normally blocked for such things, especially when others have stated that it was a joke and the original person refuses to state it was a joke, thus ending the dispute. As such, I expect that someone acting on your words would instantly block Chillum for disruption. So, what you have effectively done is show that Chillum is a disruptive user while trying to defend him from being a disruptive user. Next time you defend a friend, try a better tactic that doesn't turn him into what appears to be a massive troll. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"Instead, he has sparked a long dispute that has disrupted 4 different talk pages." I only know about two, his and this one. Please remind me: Who was it again who was too excited to get the joke and brought the matter here? And he is certainly not a friend of mine. I don't share his sense of humour concerning drugs, either. If there was some earlier interaction or something I don't remember if it was positive, negative or neutral. You are entitled to not having a sense of humour and not having a sense for the nuances of communication. But you must learn to live with this handicap and not to disrupt Misplaced Pages with your overreactions. Hans Adler 22:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You keep saying it was a joke, but Chillum had quite a long time to say it was a joke. It would be inappropriate to make up information like that, so please reveal your source of the claim, and don't say you "inferred" it. That isn't proof. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Drop the stick and walk away from the dead horse Ottava. Chillum 23:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. If this issue is going anywhere, please take it there. It's already taken up time which could have been spent improving the encyclopedia; my impression is that it isn't finished yet, and there is plenty of scope for improvement, although I am only watchlisting about 1% of our articles. In other words, "please shit or get off the pot". Rodhullandemu 00:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Your watchlist has over 30000 articles on it????????? Viridae 00:10, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I need a new keyboard: .1% I thought I typed. Anyone care to contribute? Our Government aren't too keen on paying for that sort of thing. Rodhullandemu 00:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava. Please. Let it go and take a brake from this "issue" if you really have the good of WP in mind. Some words of "wisdom" for you: And the canon ball said: "It's not me doing the damage, it's the canon that fires me"...The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

With smoke less gun powder only the canon ball stirs up dust.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

It has been asked multiple times to Chillum if he was joking or if he really takes drugs. If this is time wasting, then why has Chillum refused to make a direct answer? He owes the community a direct answer, and any "disruption" is directly placed on Chillum's shoulder for not giving a clear yes or no. So Chillum, were you joking or do you use drugs while being involved with Misplaced Pages as your post made it seem like you do? I expect a clear answer from Chillum, and anyone else answering for him will -not- be able to answer for him, so they are only wasting everyone's time by trying to respond. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• Have you asked him on his Talk page? If so, and you are not satisfied with his answer, where's the WP:RFC/U? Stirring up up drama when consensus is so apparently against you seems to be ultimately destructive and unlikely to be forgotten. I repeat: "shit or get off the pot", and I'm, not saying "please" this time. Take it to WP:WQA if you like, but it seems to be that you have not stopped digging when you're in the hole. Rodhullandemu 00:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

He was asked on his talk page and gave a response which people above have claimed that was just furthering the joke. He was asked by me to clarify how often he uses drugs, which he could easily have said he didn't. He has sent me an email which I will show a member of the ArbCom on request in which he accuses me of a war on drug users, which makes it clear that he was not joking. WQA does not handle administrators using drugs. An RfC/U would require two people asking for the information. Comments such as "shit or get off the pot" are not constructive nor are they anything beyond disruptive. It has been pointed out multiple times that there is no evidence for this to be a joke and you persisted in your claims. That is further disruptive. The only one in a hole right now is yourself, as you have gone to great lengths promoting something without evidence, which shines incredibly poorly on your actions. Why is it that you would go to great lengths to disrupt so openly on Jimbo's talk page in such a manner? Ottava Rima (talk) 01:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, whole-heartedly; if there is a serious issue with Chillum, take it to the appropriate venue; it not, stop posing for vanity purposes without giving chapter and verse. This was tendentious when it began, and has degenerated into little more than "sound and fury". If "shit or get off the pot" is unacceptable to you, perhaps "put up or shut up" is more to your taste. Meanwhile, this is an insubstantial witchhunt that has taken up far too much of our time here. You're an experienced enough editor to know the proper channels, and failing to use them is unhelpful. In short, do yourself a favour. Rodhullandemu 01:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

As I have stated, there is not a second person for an RfC and no other venues hold this. However, Jimbo is a representative of WMF, is the Founder of Misplaced Pages, and is an expert on administrators and administrative responsibility. This was merely a series of questions for -him- based on his expertise. You, however, are throwing around terms that are highly inappropriate and disruptive. You keep attacking me, yet you keep going on and on. Why is that? Why do you think that some how making massive disruptions, incivil comments, personal attacks, and the rest are some how appropriate? Ottava Rima (talk) 02:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You have heard what Jimbo has to say on the matter, now stop this. You have been harping on me for 10 hours now. Chillum 02:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Stop what? Rodhull insists to continue his inappropriate personal attacks. I have received my answer from Jimbo, but the disruption by your protectors who are only making you look really inappropriate and as having done something incredibly wrong, continue to make vicious attacks and other hyperbolic claims. You have still refused to state if you were merely joking (which Jimbo seems to assume you were) or not. Please put forth an answer so we all know. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:10, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)"there is not a second person for an RfC and no other venues hold this"; the first clause should tell you that you're in a minority very much of precisely one, and the second is plainly incorrect, since ArbCom may be emailed with your concerns. I'm not attacking you, merely pointing out the reality of the situation in which you find yourself, and in which (in my opinion) you are continuing to flail ineffectually without actually getting anywhere. As already pointed out, (1) this isn't the venue for this and (2) you are lacking in diffs to support your case. I say again, put up or shut up, unless you want to be labelled a fool forever and a day. Rodhullandemu 02:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Rod, it is utterly unacceptable for you, in this discussion, to tell someone to "shit or get off the pot." There is no justifiable reason to encourage someone to ruin perfectly good pot. Disgraceful. Lara 02:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

"the first clause should tell you that you're in a minority very much of precisely one" Prodego didn't post? Malleus didn't post? Iridescent? Moni3? You sure have selective reading. And a diff to support what case? I already showed where he made statements about him doing drugs and he has so far refused to admit that it was a joke. However, I do have a harassing email from him which makes it sure that he wasn't joking about his use. And Rodhullandemu, you can say it isn't a venue all you want, but I was posting a question to Jimbo, and this is -always- a place to do so. If Jimbo didn't want it, he can ask. However, your continue pushing the issue shows that you have gone beyond what is proper. You can label me whatever you want, but you have only proven that you are no longer here to abide by our policies. If you really felt that my comments were meaningless, you would have ignored them. However, your disruption and vigor on the matter suggests that you recognize that it is a serious issue, which verifies that your response is unacceptable. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Besides that he might or might not use certain legal or illegal drugs, is there any problem with his edits and actions as an admin or editor? If so, you should start pointing them out with dif's. If not, it's time for you to stop your personal crusade!!!!!!!The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is a problem which has been pointed out multiple times: he is 1. an admin who has a history of making controversial decisions and 2. operates a secret account whose edits cannot be put under scrutiny. Having impaired judgment from a mind altering drug would be problematic with both of these. And a personal crusade? This is one day with an individual who was claimed by his defenders like you to be joking or not be a problem, but is unwilling to come out and be straight forward about it. Instead of being open, honest, and to the point he is allowing people like you to make massive disruption in order to avoid from a severe problem. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:49, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

So where are the dif's for those alleged "controversial decisions"????? You don't provide dif's, you don't provide any proof whatsoever. I don't know the admin in question at all and I don't know you but I know that you're throwing out accusations and don't back it up at all. That is simply bad mouthing. It is clear by now, that you have a personal agenda here, grinding an axe.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 02:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

NO, you are wasting our time. Give us a brake.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I concur with Hans' comment a little further above. So let's put a fact-tag behind Chillum's "drug" statement. *smile* The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Seriously folks, reacting hysterically to someone using drugs is bad, it can really mess people up. You might start out thinking it is innocent experimentation and that you can stop anytime, but before you know it you can take over your life. Chillum 18:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey Chillum, maybe you should share a little bit with Ottava. He could do with some mellowing. :) Crafty (talk) 19:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Our job here is to write an encyclopedia not to enforce the drug laws wherever we are located and, even here, this thread is a disgrace. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 19:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

No one has stated that we are talking about drug laws, SqueakBox. Before you make such incivil attacks, please make sure to read the discussion. This is about operating an administrator account with a history of disruptive and inappropriate blocks overturned by consensus while admitting to long term drug use by drugs that are Class A and thus have a major effect on judgment. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Now its me making the uncivil attacks? Sigh. Isnt that a case of projection? And what apart from the law are we talking about; its none of your damn business what people do in their own homes and your using this so-called forum to harass people is a disgrace; and what do you mean class A drug? You declare that this has nothing to do with drug laws and then go about class A drugs, presumably that refer to laws where you are located but do not refer to wikipedia. This user is beiong very disruptive and aggressive. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 20:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Geez Ottava you will have to point out this "history of disruptive and inappropriate blocks overturned by consensus". My actions have generally stood up to scrutiny, not sure what you are referring to. Chillum 20:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Chillum, are you seriously going to claim that? Moni3 has already asked if you were currently high because of earlier claims that were similar. Other people echoed this view. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

long term? Rodhullandemu 19:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, long term. Chillum has had a lot of blocks overturned or other admins questioning his decisions for a very long time. Moni3 asked if Chillum was on drugs right now because of his highly questionable actions just today. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava, I already asked you to substantiate these claims about my actions being regularly overturned, you responded with incredulity, now you are repeating these claims. Where are those blocks you speak of? Provide evidence or stop making baseless claims. Chillum 21:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottawa, this gets more and more pathetic as it drags out. It is clearly not going to go anywhere, so can we just cut the vamping and move on? I'll have a few tokes for you tonight. Tarc (talk) 20:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Since when do you speak for Jimbo? Jimbo has not responded, so you cannot say this has gone no where. This was a question for him. Why are you so eager to derail it unless you believe that there is impropriety? Ottava Rima (talk) 20:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

*Sigh* Excirial wanders off to find a truckload of icecubes. Excirial 20:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Remember to Keep cool during discussions. Overheated machinery tends to break down. :)

Unfortunately i was out of dove's, so i guess a cool drink will have to do for now. The temperature is a bit hot around here, so take a good glass of lemonade with a few ice cubes to cool down, and then resume talking. Nothing better then a cool resfreshment to cool down a heated discussion!. Excirial 20:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Honestly ask yourself this people-What would Jimbo think of this?--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 20:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• Ottawa. Ottava. Nobody is making "incivil attacks" but you by taking this way to serious and out of proportion. You really should try to relax and let it go. There is no need at all for a "crusade" here.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Calling something pathetic and other such claims are incivil. Now, the name is clearly Ottava. If you cannot get that right, why are you responding? And why do you seek to defend something that is clearly inappropriate? We have standards that say not to edit while intoxicated. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Uh, sorry for not using my reading glasses all the time.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

That's what she said.--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 21:39, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm so drugged up that I just can find them (my reading glasses). World peace *smile* The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Can an extremely high or drunk person even type properly? I would have thought that they would either make huge number of typos or just collapse and start giggling. Gizza 01:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying hard, very hard and by typing those words I'm now probably on someone's black list of drug abusing editors (even so my doc subscribed it). *big smile* The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• My last statement for today to and in regards of user:Ottava Rima: All I can say by now is that it's time to add a block to your block history so you have time to calm down and think about the disruption you created today.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 02:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Talking of ice...

I think the title of this section is not entirely appropriate. I suggest a pole (not sure whether it should be a North or South pole) to decide between the following two alternative titles:

1. Admin making inappropriate references to drug use
2. Multiple admins demonstrably and repeatedly abusing their privileges as a result of longterm abuse of illegal drugs of the most dangerous kind

Any preferences? Hans Adler 20:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Can we dance against the pole? Crafty (talk) 20:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Let's take a poll on Crafty's idea first! Bielle (talk) 20:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer that all users, not just admins, conduct themselves with dignity and professionalism at all times. Certain kinds of references to illegal drug use would not be appropriate in any normal workplace, and are therefore similarly are not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. At the same time, I see no need to get too up in arms about a joke, an error, or similar. If there's an ongoing pattern of behavior which appears to be disruptive or which would tend to reflect negatively on the project, then it could be addressed - preferably with a minimum of drama and hand-wringing. But based on my experience with hundreds of Wikipedians all around the world, we are in no danger of being overrun by drug fiends or anything. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of ice cubes, what's your favorite drink? (I prefer Diet Pepsi.) Misplaced Pages is not a chatroom, but moderate banter can boost morale. Jehochman 02:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Bailey's, no ice. A nice girly drink. It's all fat and sugar, mind you, so Slim's not allowed it very often. :) SlimVirgin 02:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

What is unacceptable is users accusing other users of taking drugs or implying it, this should lead lead to an automatic block as it happens here way too often, ie should really be policy. Its Ottava whose actions have been extremely unprofessional. Mine is a strong bitter, non sweet coffeeeven at this late hour; explains the difference between my and Slim's and Jechoman's editing habits I guess. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 04:02, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

SqueakBox, Chillum made a statement on his talk page admitting to taking drugs. He has not denied it nor stated it was a joke. His harassing email to me verifies that he does use drugs. I should be blocked for what reason? He posted it on his talk page. Jimbo has already stated that what he did was inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Your behaviour towards Chillum is completely unacceptable and you have on various occasions accused him of "being high" at other times; to say you have Jimbo's support on this issue is rubbish; if you persist on trying to get Chillum de-sysopped over this (as you are threatening elsewhere) dont be surprised if others try to see your edit privileges permanently revoked for this harrassment; isn't it anyway traditional to take psychedelics on Halloween? While if Chillum's behaviour was unacceptable last night, if he had gone on a blocking rampage etc, yes sure there might have been an issue but this is all a fabrication of your mind. Right now we dont have to obey US laws on things like drugs to edit wikipedia (laws which certainly allow sick people to take cannabis) and that isnt likely to change. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 04:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Back up your claims with a diff or you will be in direct violation of WP:NPA. Jimbo made it very clear that Chillum shouldn't have posted that statement. And what kind of strange drug taking culture are you from? You aren't even staying focused with your own argument anymore. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually Otava, there was more for you in Jimbo's comment than there was for Chillum. Maybe you should read it again. Crafty (talk) 04:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Read it again. Jimbo was clear that Chillum shouldn't have posted. He also assumed that Chillum was joking. Chillum has not admitted that it was a joke although it has been directly asked multiple times. Jimbo only stated at the end that he was not afraid that there would be a lot of drug taking admin. It does not mean that he wouldn't think that if Chillum was honest there would be no problem here. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

SqueakBox, please provide links to your claims or strike. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

What claim do you want me to back up with a diff. And you have just (elsewhere) accused Chillum of being high - this behaviour has got to stop as it is becoming serious harassment from somebody who has no idea who may or may not be under the influence of whatever. I am getting involved because your behaviour making wild accusations is so unacceptable; you are not Chillum's boss so stop behaving like you are. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 04:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

This will be the third time that I've asked you to provide diffs to where I claimed he was high. I have not. You are seriously violating multiple policies with your statements, and your claims about trolling are inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

(←)Whatever, O. You keep climbing that Reichstag, kiddo. :) Crafty (talk) 04:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Crafty, the rate of you and others posting and the hysterical levels, such as dramatically calling this a witch hunt and other such things when there has only been simple questions shows that your accusation is in the reverse. The fact that Chillum has threatened me twice via email, dramatically put himself into a "wikibreak", and I have been attacked in such inappropriate manner by people who should have known better only shows that there is an inappropriate level of hostility here from your side which has no clear connection to what has been said on my side. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Given the time of year witchhunt is an appropriate of what is going on here, unfortunately not for the first time against this user so any paranoia is completely understandable especially given your wild drug accusations that have no foundation. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 04:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

A witch hunt is used to denote paranoia feud investigations without evidence. This was a simple straight forward inquiry about a statement a user placed prominent on their user page with no ramifications. Yes, you are speaking in hyperbole that results in an argument of the ridiculous. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You have no evidence Chillum is high on drugs so witchhunt is the appropriate term; if you have a complaint about Chillum's edit last night you should go to AN/I but so far you have nothing to complain about; you are angry at previous history and you are trying to expel that anger and get a reaction; online its called trolling and should stop now, as various editors are requesting of you; this whole thread, not my contributions, is both ridiculous and disturbing; a user trolls an admin accusing him of being permanently high on class A drugs on repeated occasions. Also given that Jimbo has only made one edit to this thread I find your request for a diff to be bizarre; are you sure its not you under the influence? Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 04:59, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to refamiliarize yourself with the thread. I linked to Chillum's page and asked Jimbo if that was appropriate. I did not accuse Chillum of being high, but I did ask him if he uses drugs while editing. He has yet to respond, and he has not stated that the quote was a joke although he has been asked directly. I have not accused him of being high, so this will be the fourth time you've been requested to provide diffs. Your current user page soap boxing makes it seem like you will probably not be backing up your claims any time soon. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I am jsut sick and tired of trolling editors making unrealistic claims that editors they dotn like take drugs- it mostly happens to editors who edit drug related articles but its unacceptable anywhere. If you think its acceptable maybe you should seek a different hobby, here we Assume good faith and that not every person drunk on Saturday night is not sober come work on Monday morning; I can also see you are so full of aggression right now that you aren't going to listen to what I say anyway. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 05:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you can accuse me of being full of aggression when I have asked you to simply provide diffs to back up the claim that I accused him of being high. And I find it odd how you make a statement about unrealistic claims when there was a clear statement and post from Chillum about him being on acid at the time. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:23, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava, people edit Misplaced Pages all the time in what might be called altered or unusual brain states. They edit under the influence of prescription and non-prescription drugs, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine; they may be very happy or very sad, in a good mood or very bad mood, suffering from depression or grief; there may be mental illness or personality issues; they may be tired or bored and not paying close enough attention, or hurt and angry and out to do damage. It makes little sense to point to just one of these causes of less-than-ideal cognition and say, "That one's never allowed." What we do is judge people by their edits, howsoever caused, and as Chillum didn't make any, there's nothing to judge. SlimVirgin 13:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You have been responded to with a smiling actor. Hopefully this will assist you in lightening up. This notice is intended to be humorous and not to be construed as an attack. Sswonk (talk) 06:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

No editing while high occurred

A look at Chillum's contribs indicates he did not edit while high on LSD other than to his talk page once. So in no way can his actions be considered inappropriate - professionalism means not working in an altered state, and Chillum has indeed acted to this high professional standard. Thanks, SqueakBox talk contribs 05:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks like this issue may be an acnestis for some editors. Cla68 (talk) 06:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Acnestis? Thanks for the new word. It's quite recondite. :) Franamax (talk) 12:49, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I tried pointing that out up above, many paragraphs ago. Nobody listened. :( Also, Malleus Fatuorum has got it in his head that since Chillum wasn't editing with his primary account during the time in question, he must have been making drug-addled edits with a secondary account that we don't know about. It's all rather surreal. I'm glad the weekend's over and that people will have less free time for drama now. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:33, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment Now I do not know if this is the right place to respond to this, but I had a very interesting discussion about this with my wife last night. We went out for drinks at our local bar, and met up with my brother in law, Friedland. Now I have to say neither me or my wife are big dabblers in the illicit substances. My wife smoked a couple of "pipes" whilst at "art college", but I don't think you would call her a heavy user. Friedland, however, is one of those whacked-out-righteous dudes who drags away on rave puff whilst building wicker men. His biggest was a 30 foot one he made for the burning man, but that's enough of that right now. By the way, before any of you think about calling the feds, Friedland is a pseudonym.

Anyway, I'm getting off the point. Me and my wife had been talking about the "drugs on wikipedia" discussion, and as I knew Friedland was a bit of a heavy user, I thought I'd ask his advice. He gave "respect" to Chillum for taking things to the edge as he does - entering a whole new trancendental realm. He thought that was some higher power stuff, and was pleased. But he did point out the wisdom of going about it on Misplaced Pages. Michael Palin recently admitted to taking cocaine, but Michael Palin is considered to be a national treasure in some circles, and can get away with it. He also said that you probably wouldn't want to edit wikipedia on acid unless you were a total crazy or really really into wikipedia. My wife then said "Ah, but which one is Chillum?".

We also wanted to know that if he has a mysterious "undisclosed" account, how are we sure that this account isn't the one for all his crazy drug larks, and that he might be trying to avoid the consequences of 'shooting up the bank' whilst all heffed up on power dust. And I don't know if I like that. If Chillum is a fine role model for children, and my daughter was still of an impressionable age, I would be concerned if she was following his actions! Editing Misplaced Pages under the influence can lead to disasterous consequences IN REAL LIFE, and that is not something either me or my wife would want to happen to our daughter. We don't really think of Chillum as an 'adopted son', but perhaps someone in need of a bit of guidance at a difficult time. Temptation comes in many forms.

Other than that, it was a lovely evening out - me and Friedland are chalk and cheese, but we get on a treat, and bring out the best in each other. Yours, Hands of gorse, heart of steel (talk) 13:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Note I go ahead, here, to Wiklink "chalk and cheese" (in the service of readers who are, um, ignorami, such as misself).↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 13:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Q

Would an admin who was a member of the Native American Church be required to refrain from the use of psychotropics even when not editing?↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 15:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Request

Jimmy, please see my comment here. As a concerned member of the community I think this is something you could do to help. Jehochman 17:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Request

Jimmy, please do yourself a favour and ignore all of the above section, unless of course you'd like to get a needless headache. RMHED (talk) 02:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Poor Jimbo...

Y'all realize Wales probably has a headache with the orange bar sticking on every few minutes... The reason for "Y'all" is that this page is practically not Jimbo's anymore :P ZooFari 00:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The price of fame is high it seems. ;) Crafty (talk) 00:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for contributing to your talk page nightmare. Chillum 00:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Does it hurt when I do this? HalfShadow (talk) 00:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I was always wondering why editors do this (posting their "dirty laundry stuff" here). Still don't get it.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, this talk page is the most forum-like I've seen on Misplaced Pages. ZooFari 00:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

That, perhaps, is because people believe Jimmy to possess infinite powers and wisdom, and as a final arbiter, is some sort of deus ex machina to be wheeled out when all else fails- except it's usually when "all else" has not even been considered, let alone tried. Rodhullandemu 00:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

^^^This. Rarely brings about what the petitioner wants though. And nor should it. Crafty (talk) 00:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

And still, there is no way to protect him (Jimbo) from such unless he himself would apply for page protection. *smile*. The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:09, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

That would be unhelpful unless this page were a constant source of vandalism, and it is not, since savvy vandals realise that it is among the most watched of pages here, so they go elsewhere; what is more to the point is that this page is sometimes used by those who are perhaps unaware of the various remedies available, particularly on other language Wikipedias. A header box similar to those on WP:ANI *might* reduce this, but that does not address those who come with an axe to grind. Rodhullandemu 01:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

(After edit conflict, and after the last comment above it still applies depending on how one determines vandalism). Maybe he should add one of those userboxes that say:"This page was vandalized XX times". *grin* The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

There ain't a datatype big enough for that counter. DMacks (talk) 07:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

!

Check out this listing posted at my local section of Craigslist. What!?↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 18:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The Craigslist staff are probably willing to take it down if asked - maybe leave a note for Mike Godwin or his counterpart at Craigslist. Paying someone to violate a website's use policy is probably some form of business tort, and may even break some anti-hacking laws. I'd be tempted to go undercover and respond to see what they're up to, though the posting itself could be a trap. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:04, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, I think you should go undercover and report your findings.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

If not you, someone really should!The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 21:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, could you please appoint me administrator? - Wikidemon (talk) 21:51, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

In regards of your edit summary and your comment here: You don't need a badge, You make it up. You don't need a gun, you make one with words. You don't need to be an admin, you make it up (as plenty of editors already thought you are one anyways).

So GO GET THEM! ;) The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

NO! The first question will ask for your user name, then the prospective employer will see if that user is an admin. That the job is specifically offered to an admin only is especially stinky. I hope a real admin steps forward to respond to the ad, to find out who wants an admin in the pocket. —Finell (Talk) 04:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

That's extremely alarming. I can't imagine that you'd actually require admin status to dig further though. Let's see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
-K10wnsta (talk) 22:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh just ignore it. This is hardly the first time paid editing has come up. Prodego 22:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo's talk page has truly turned into a ...--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 23:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^, how so?↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 23:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Would you dare deny this talk page is not a crazy den of pigs? :D--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 23:30, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Hang on, wasn't this thread called something else a few minutes ago??? (I TOLD YOU CRAAAZZYY DEN OF PIGS!)--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 23:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Oops. I just now put two and two together, realizing that your handle is the traditional call to pigs. BTW, Sooo Kawii, why is that the traditional call, anyway? I'll have to look up its etymology. Still, I don't necessarily believe that Mr Wales's talkpage has become a piggery. (Hmm -- and, so, now I'm wishing I had access to the finally published The Historical Thesaurus of the Oxford English Dictionary (whose Wikiarticle is here), to find a cooler synonym for piggery, for my use here.)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 23:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Kawaii is the Japanese word for cute! Silly person! see this educational video- --Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 23:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah, yes. (So is this webpage Japanese or Korean?)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 00:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Flagged revisions

This edit remained in your BLP for almost 14 hours even though over 800 accounts have the article watchlisted (I'm not one of them). Note that this happened in spite of the article being semi-protected. Perhaps you might have a personal stake in trying to expedite the implementation of a strict version of flagged revisions? Cla68 (talk) 04:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

This nonsense is of no consequence to Jimbo's reputation. I am sure Jimbo is more concerned about implementing flagged revisions to protect Misplaced Pages from embarrassment. —Finell (Talk) 06:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

You think? I'm not normally the tinfoil hat wearing type, but lately my cynical side is thinking that foundation level support is more fiction than reality. Kevin (talk) 06:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Huh? There would be no Misplaced Pages were it not for the server farm, IT staff, administration, and software development that Wikimedia Foundation provides. So you don't think the Foundation gives enough? This whole project, and its sister projects, live solely on the Foundation's charity. If the Foundation ever gets fed up with all the nonsense and drama, they flip a switch, and you can kiss your hobby goodbye. —Finell (Talk) 09:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I already strongly support the introduction of Flagged Revs to the English Misplaced Pages as soon as possible.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Concerned about getting fair review of a complaint against an editor who is an administrator.

Hello. I'm writing to inform you of a complaint against an administrator for wikihounding, disruptive editing, and improper tagging of good faith edits as vandalism. I'm concerned about getting fair review and fair resolution of this matter, given that the editor in question, Arthur Rubin, is also an administrator and has a long history, according to his current and archived talk pages, of engaging in reversion practices that have upset a very long list of people and yet there has been no action taken in the past. The case is ongoing here. The problem began after I made a simple addition of a book to a reading list on a controversial page that I had never edited in the past. Within the next 9 minutes, Arthur Rubin not only reverted this edit and labelled it as vandalism, but hounded me by visiting multiple other pages I had contributed to where he had no previous editing experience and did batch reversions of my contributions calling them also vandalism or "not helpful", even if it included the fixing of spelling errors. Even after making it clear my edits weren't vandalism, he continued to revert all of my edits to all pages, and he'll make successive excuses as to the reasons why. I'm seeing initial evidence that some people reviewing this may be trying to reduce this matter to being a case of him labelling things as vandalism rather than taking the time to write out a genuine reason for reverting. That's not the issue here, in my opinion. I feel bullied and hounded, and it's intimidating coming from an administrator. Thank-you. MeSoStupid (talk) 05:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo doesn't do dispute resolution, please see WP:Dispute resolution for the standard procedures. MBisanz 06:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Links for different languages

Dear Jimbo Wales, First of all deep thanks for this incredible chain-link library you created, there are few men who believed in sharing information,sharing power. Without being too long I would like to suggest you to create a link in between Misplaced Pages pages in different language. I will try to explain myself better with an example: If I'm looking for "Income Approach" the english page will turn up. NOW if I want to know what is its corresponding result in Italian for instance?Or German? Since I'm sure there are their corresponding pages in different languages it will take only few second to create even an ultimate tool for translation. It sounds to me a great idea, and it will only take a few to reserve a small buttons section for languages. That will make the difference to something that already seems perfect. Hope to hear from you soon

Roberto S. <Email redacted; it is not necessary to provide personal contact information> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.4.186.137 (talk) 18:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Many articles already have such links available, but their creation depends on volunteers taking the time to make them and do not have perfect coverage. The best thing to do, when you find one that is missing, is to drop a note on the talk page requesting the help of someone who is used to making them (or, better yet, learn how to do so and place them as you find them!) — Coren  18:39, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

ANI handling

Do you have an opinion on this ANI?

Admins don't like wikipedia policies. When will this end? --91.130.188.8 (talk) 14:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC)