Misplaced Pages

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Abuse of Page Protection tools

I have left Misplaced Pages. I think I have the right to say this on my user page, and mention why. However, because I left pretty much solely over abuse heaped upon me by Durova, her friends keep deleting the message, and have now protected my user page. Here's the message:

This user has left Misplaced Pages due to harassment by Durova which attempted to prevent free discussion of her featured picture candidates. Long story short, polite criticism of her work there was met with disproportionate attacks, and, thinking back, I realised that more subtle forms of this bullying had been going on a long time. Having had it made very clear that noone cared about harassment by her, I have left Misplaced Pages. Evidence available through e-mail to anyone I trust to have my e-mail.

Durova, meanwhile, is evidently constantly complaining about how few people capable of working with historic material there are.

The incident in question involved her repeating "Fuck you, troll" on Skype over and over, because I politely pointed out in a FPC that one of the images was upside down, this looks like a mistake, and even if it wasn't, it's not something that you should go without mentioning. I offered ways around this when she began berating me over it, such as offwerin two versions, so that people don't have to turn their monitors over, which is much easier with a book.

She continued to berate me, threatened me, and then began acting to remove all connections I had to people that might give me material for Misplaced Pages that had any connections through her, even in media where she doesn't do things.

This was not the first time, I doubt I'm the only person she's bullied into doing what she wants, or into deleting comments about her restorations that she disliked.

I don't want anyone else to get into the position I was put in, where they are bullied and harassed for months for not living up to Durova's ideal of perfect yes-man, all the while being used for propaganda purposes by her. And whenever I complained about ANYTHING that was being done to me by anyone, she swooped in and encouraged people to close the thread, because I hadn't talked to her first.

I supported her goals, incredibly strongly, but, in the end, the goals were less important to me than getting out of a relationship where, days after telling her I had just experienced a massive personal crisis, she was brutally attacking and bullying me over trivial matters.

Shoemaker's Holiday 04:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Durova notified. I don't know the circumstances of this conflict, but in any event, retired or not, expressions of derision with a specific editor on one's userpage are usually removed per WP:UP#NOT. Equazcion 05:03, 4 Mar 2010 (UTC)

Some diffs would help. Otherwise it's a fishing expedition. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:10, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• Hey Shoe. :( Not great to see you under these conditions, but hey anyways. Some diffs: , , . As per Equazcion it's not unusual to remove this kind of stuff. Plus your last edit prior to this was this vandalism of a Signpost story about Durova. Staxringold _talk 05:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification, Equazcion. Let's call this water under the bridge; this goes back five months. If Shoemaker wants the semiprotection taken off his user page I've no objection. Shake hands and let bygones be bygones. Durova 05:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• I think the rant is inappropriate. Feeling harassed and being harassed are very different, though the difference is not obvious to the victim at the time (I have had both, with on-wiki disputes escalated to off-wiki crank calls and the like). To say that they left because of a dispute with a named user is fine, left due to harassment with no name is OK, but the Wikimedia Foundation's resources are not really here ot be used to pursue grudges from beyond the grave. Guy (Help!) 08:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'd say, if Durova, does not mind, take protection off. I more worried about the user than his user page. The user is clearly very upset, and needs some understanding and help. Durova, I would like to appeal to you please. I know the two of you used to be the friends. Maybe it is possible to have a talk or to have a meditation to bring Shoemaker's Holiday back to Commons and to Misplaced Pages. If I could be of any help to bring the two of you together, I will be happy to do so. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Thank you for being considerate, Mbz1. He's welcome to return at any time. I'd work with him onsite or maintain polite distance, per his preference. Although yes, I would prefer if the personal attacks stopped. Let's put it in the past. Durova 19:34, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Wait. Via Skype? Woogee (talk) 23:56, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Great. So Durova forgives me for... her having harassed me off the site. But I'm welcome to return to being harassed any time. How kind of her. 86.138.86.138 (talk) 04:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• What?! *The* Shoemaker's Holiday hounded off Misplaced Pages? The world is going to hell in a handbasket. -- Michel Vuijlsteke (talk) 13:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• Shoe, buddy, you really need to calm down. I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of what happened between you and Durova, but I do know I've seen you get really angry over small things before (like whenever people would start trolling you about global warming denial and things like that). If you want to edit Misplaced Pages, awesome, come back and the project is better for it. But if not, what exactly do these occasional returns complaining about the same issue accomplish? Staxringold _talk 19:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that this is another example of a contributor feeling unappreciated & suffering WikiBurnout for all of the hard work she/he has contributed to the project. (And if you agree that this phenomenon exists, then you might consider that Larry Sanger is the first significant example of this phenomenon.) Without taking sides, I have to wonder if any of us (including me) had extended more appreciation for SH's contributions, matters would have reached this point. -- llywrch (talk) 22:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I have said what it was: Durova had been continually hounding me over tiny issues: writing an article on sound restoration for the signpost, when she wanted to do one; making a joke page with another contributor she disliked, and then, when I politely pointed out a bizarre decision by her in a set nomination, here, she cursed me out for 15 minutes on Skype, said "Fuck you, troll" about 10 times in said conversation - I'm not exaggerating, people have the log, and, indeed, it was posted to Misplaced Pages for a while, until Durova had it oversighted in direct violation of WP:OVERSIGHT. (Oh, sure, the oversighter in question claimed the policy didn't reflect standard procedure, but they could have edited it any time in the last 5 months to make it permitted. That they never did means they were clearly ignoring policy, or had no consensus to act in the manner they did.) - In this egregious attack, she vowed, because I made a polite comment about a strange restoration choice:

• To prevent me getting the scanner she had promised to arrange through Misplaced Pages grant, which was necessary for me continuing work.
• To keep me from working on Tropenmuseum items.
• An implied threat to keep my name out of a Tropenmuseum exhibit, for which she had got large numbers of us to do major restoration work. Of course, this exhibit was never talked of again once she got access to archives she wanted, because she's a manipulative little bitch that way, but we didn't know that at the time.

In short, this was harassment, threats, and was part of a chain dating back about 2 months, if not farther. Durova is completely unrepentant, as seen here. Note that the harassment was explicitly in order to subvert the Featured picture candidates voting, by suppressing politely stated dissent. I might have gotten around this, but when I pointed this out, it was made very clear that noone wanted to hear anything wrong about Durova, and I was explicitly told no evidence could convince anyone of any wrongdoing by her.

If you want me back, Durova needs to face consequences for her actions, or at least be warned, or, in a far more unlikely event, Durova accepts wrongdoing, apologises, and promises never to use harassment to suppress free commentary of her restoration work again. Barring that, I'm NOT coming back. Shoemaker's Holiday 20:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, had she merely pulled this stunt at a neutral time, it might've been bad enough. What she actually did was pull it three days after I had confided to her a severe trauma that had just happened to me. Shoemaker's Holiday 20:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• I highly doubt most of this. Since she's been nothing but nice to be despite any disagreements we've had and given what I've seen from you, Shoe, exploding at the slightest provocation on numerous occasions. Again, I don't know the details (despite your yelling at me on my talk page that I know the full details), but this was supposed to be an ANI thread about page protection, not a far-reaching conspiracy to deny you a scanner or whatever. Staxringold _talk 22:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

You were there for the discussion when the event happened, as far as I'm aware. Why not ask on Wikivoices whether anyone remembers when Durova went crazy? Because I made a point of putting people into that conversation so I'd have independent backup of what I was saying. If I recall correctly, Juliancolton was one of them. Why not ask him? This isn't a conspiracy theory, if you had the log you'd see that Durova revelled in taking back every half-baked promise she had made regarding me in the previous six months, just to rub it in.

For the record, my scanner broke, which I used for almost all my Misplaced Pages Featured Pictures work. I knew it'd be a while before I could afford a new one, so Durova stepped in and promised to sort out funding. about four months passed without a word from her, until she brought it up again to rub in my face what I lost by daring to politely question her FPC. Shoemaker's Holiday 23:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Hell, I'll go post the log somewhere and give a link. Hold on. Shoemaker's Holiday 00:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

<link redacted by Rlevse> Shoemaker's Holiday 00:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Shoe, without getting into the merits of the ongoing long term issue btwn you and Durova, your links to the blog are merely exacerbating the situation, stop it now. I've removed them from the current versions of the pages. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I am a victim of harassment who is having the harassment denied to have been that bad. This is a situation where providing the evidence is my only recourse. How is that "exacerbating the situation"? Shoemaker's Holiday 08:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Per Baseball Bugs above, WP:DIFFS provide the evidence. Provide the evidence, please, as you have indicated you must, and you might have a case. No "evidence", no case... Doc9871 (talk) 08:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

The worst of the harassment happened over Skype. All such evidence is censored. Shoemaker's Holiday 10:12, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Any "Skype" evidence "off-wiki" should be submitted to admins willing to look at such evidence (a checkuser admin would be the best choice). If you can't submit evidence you've been harassed on WP with significant diffs, I don't think "claiming" harassment without solid evidence is good for any case you may have... Doc9871 (talk) 10:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

So, if the harasser is sneaky, keeps a semi-good public image while privately harassing you severely about Misplaced Pages, and on-wiki actions, the harasser gets off scot-free? Shoemaker's Holiday 11:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

"Sneaky"? What "image"? You are casting allegations with no direct evidence. Support your claims with diffs for "on-wiki actions" (which anyone could do if the evidence is there). Off-wiki actions are far more difficult to prove, especially when it concerns edits on WP... Doc9871 (talk)

Oh, fuck Misplaced Pages. I gave Misplaced Pages a last chance, this is what happens. Requests that I dig through a year of history for diffs from before I left to show the rare tmes her harassment spilled onto Misplaced Pages itself, instead of being on Skype. Shoemaker's Holiday 19:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• Shoe, when did you "give Misplaced Pages it's last chance"? You came back after months to complain about page protection, and then after getting a handshake and everyone agreeing lets just let this be water under the bridge and move on you start exploding about a completely different subject. And during none of this have you actually done anything on the project. Tired of a user? Here's an idea, don't interact with them. BOOM. Done. Drama, in a case like this where Durova is very clearly not doing anything to you on site, is something you are entirely bringing on yourself. Staxringold _talk 21:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Since Durova is claiming copyright in the log in question, I'd like to ask directly and explicitly:

Durova, is the chat log posted by Shoemakers' Holiday an accurate record of a conversation between the two of you? — Werdna • talk 08:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Having seen the log that was linked to, I can certainly understand why he wants it on the "community record". Way beyond the pale, and suppressing it by copyright claims only makes it worse. He is justified in wanting some sunshine here. --SB_Johnny |  11:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

This has long since ceased to be a matter for ANI, but since respectable Wikipedians are asking direct questions here's a reply. Only two Misplaced Pages arbitration cases have ever been vacated; Shoemaker's Holiday was the subject of one of them. For more than I year I campaigned on Shoemaker's Holiday's behalf to get its findings vacated. Throughout that time I was his strongest advocate, friend, and supporter--frequently putting his needs ahead of my own. This was not easy because his conduct was erratic: for a number of months he initiated more arbitration motions than any other editor. Often he would agree in private that his actions were poor choices and attribute them to his health. I made many difficult choices to support him--or at least excuse him--because he often seemed to be doing the right thing in all the wrong ways. There were people who believed his outbursts were staged; I trusted him. I prioritized his arbitration appeal ahead of my own and made no appeal of my own case until after his had been vacated. After his case was vacated, though, he acted in ways that undermined my appeal. Other incidents occurred with other editors where he failed to share credit where credit was due or undermined other editors where their priorities differed from his own.

A few days before the chat log you have read, a different chat occurred where he boasted that his onsite outbursts had indeed been staged throughout his arbitration appeals: he would email a request to the Committee and if he didn't get the response he wanted he would raise a fuss at the boards, and his strategy was to resume the outbursts and tie up arbitrator time until they vacated his case to get rid of him. He thought it was clever to do that. So the skeptics were right: he had been lying to me all those months. He had exploited my goodwill. Until he made that boast I was unable to correlate those events because he usually hadn't informed his friends when he was emailing ArbCom. At first I was speechless. Then I asked a former Committee member whether this chain of events had really taken place; in light of the self-disclosure that person was able to affirm in very general terms that it had. My real reaction came out a few days later when Shoemaker's Holiday violated WP:NOR to undermine one of my featured content candidacies. I am a former sailor: on rare occasions when it's really deserved I speak like one. Strictly offsite, of course.

If anyone needs substantiation please email me. These events occurred many months ago and I'd rather put it in the past. I remain willing to work with Shoemaker's Holiday onsite but have no desire to communicate with him in any other context. For the last five months nearly all of his contributions at two WMF sites have been focused upon me. I have had no contact with him, onsite or offsite, since last October other than at this thread. Let's resume our shared mission and build an encyclopedia. Durova 17:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I'm glad that you're being forthright – your version of events at least explains (though it doesn't excuse) the outburst in question. — Werdna • talk 09:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

It would take a dig through archives from last October to check the log line by line, but what he's published appears to be incomplete and possibly altered. The context is completely misrepresented. The "polite criticism of my work" he refers to occurred here. Shoemaker was actually proposing that we invert the orientation of an illustration of a shadow on a floor. Shoemaker's Holiday had no source at all for his opinion. I had made all the appropriate notations both at the file upload page and at the article caption. There was a point in chat where he tried to claim the Library of Congress staff had uploaded the image wrong and I replied that the spine was on the correct side (they had scanned the whole book). He was really clinging to the idea and hadn't done basic research; don't suppose he published that part of the discussion. This blindsided me a few minutes after I woke up that day. Suppose Shoemaker guessed wrong and Misplaced Pages republished a work by one of the most important French impressionists upside down? Durova 17:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Show me one place where it was cut or altered. You have the logs. We're not the only people who have them, others have seen them too. Go through line by line, and if you can show alteration, do so.

Furthermore, "staged"? Hell, no. I told you that I never got anything from the Arbcom in the entire months where I followed your insistance that I sit back and do nothing, only politely poking them at times, and waiting months for responses that never came. But the moment I *did* get upset, things happened, and I pointed out that it was ridiculous of them to set things up with perverse incentives, which made it much easier to give in to outbursts when the stress built up next time, in the full knowledge that nothing would get done otherwise.

Durova fails to mention things like her revealing my private health information on Wikimedia Commons, which I'd look for, but I believe it was oversighted. She was not a friend, her friendship was entirely conditional on me doing exactly what she said, and never arguing with her. The slightest thing I did that wasn't discussed beforehand resulted in her coming down on me like a ton of bricks.

I have a challenge for Durova: If I edited the log, post your version, and let people compare. Presuming you aren't projecting about editing, that'll let people see whether mine varies any.

In turn, you have my permission to post the log where I supposedly boasted about staging things. However, you must post it in full, from the time the conversation started, to when it ended, censoring only personal details like our real names and any exact description of my medical information.

This needs some sunshine. If you're unwilling to do this, I think that everyone has the right to ask you why.

Furthermore, may I point out this diff from over on Commons? I'm not going to link the post discussed in that diff, for reasons that will be clear upon reading that diff. Who is the more credible in this discussion? The person who has been warned for harassing someone by revealing personal medical information, or the person who had said information maliciously revealed? Shoemaker's Holiday 18:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Shoemaker's Holiday came to this board with broad-ranging complaints regarding events that happened five months ago, in a way that led reasonable observers to mistakenly suppose that they occurred recently. The closest part of his post to a request for the use of administrative tools was an objection to semiprotection of his user space. When he got an approval for that he broadened the complaint beyond the scope of this board. Related statements of his have already been Oversighted and revdeleted on two WMF sites and he was blocked for edit warring and personal attacks on one of them. This thread has compelled me to make statements that reflect poorly on him which I had no wish to make. This person is welcome to initiate a user conduct request for comment or maintain polite distance. I wish he would do one or the other; it feels like I'm being baited. This is draining time and energy from useful encyclopedic work. Nothing good can come from the continuation of this thread; would an administrator archive this please? Durova 20:22, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

User:Sanam001 requesting redressal of grievience

This edit war by user User:Suresh.Varma.123 in Malayala Sudra page is arising in continuance of the content dispute in nayar article. Since WP : 30 and multi party discussion failed, the user declined my efforts of next level of dispute resolution. . The source of encouragement is meat puppetry by user User:Anandks007. He has encouraged all other users to initiate edit wars with me instead of assuming good faith during content dispute. The proof of his meatpuppetry is here . I realize that it takes two to create edit wars and there seems to be active recruitment of content disagreeing users to initiate edit wars with me by User:Anandks007 :Neither am I able to take the dispute resolution to formal mediation while simultaneously being dragged into edit wars by User:Anandks007 and User:Suresh.Varma.123 in bad faith.I have been continuosly trying invain to address the root cause What options do I have to redress my grievience and stop this mobbing ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 (talk • contribs) 12:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear admins, first of all it is very difficult to assume good faith when facing racial abuse from someone. User Sanam has been pushing POV in articles related to my caste (Nair) for more than 3 months now. Wiki users like me have repeatedly asked Sanam to refrain from POV pushing and sort out the issue through the Talk page, but so far he ignored our requests. This is not my personal opinion, but the opinion shared by more than half a dozen other users as well. Sanam is repeatedly inserting the derogatory word Sudra in to Nair related articles, although users like me put a lot of evidence against this desperate act by him. Even yesterday one of the users put evidence against his racist views here. But rather than responding to the questions asked to him, he was again and again avoiding them and using diversionary tactics. We don't have anything against Sanam in personal, but the ethnic abuse he is hurling at us is making a lot of users like me quite angry and emotional. Well... I don't have much more to talk about this edit war going on. But if any admin happens to review the edits made by Sanam, then he will understand what is his real aim. Axxn (talk) 13:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I would like to add a few things to what Anand said above.

• The word Sudra is a pejorative word like "Negro" and "Kike" and is seldom used nowadays in newspapers or media of any kind. For example, during 1910s and 20s, Black Americans were termed as Negros by a section of the non-Black population. But this usage was termed racist and was discontinued. Similarly, Nambuthiri Brahmins used the term "Sudra" to describe each and every Hindu caste as they thought common people will pollute them by their touch. Nambuthiris are around 0.01% of the Indian population, and there fore, 99.99% of the Indians became Sudra. But this orthodox Nambuthiri definition was deemed racist and remained out of use in most of India. If you go to the Sudra wikipage, you can see that the vedic definition is used rather than the Nambuthiri definition. Therefore, you can never find the word "Sudra" in any article relating any Hindu caste here in wiki. Still user Sanam insists that this derogatory term should be added to the Nair article. (Nairs are regarded as Kshatriya by most of the Indian historians, as can be seen from the links provided in the Nair talk page).
• User Sanam is unwilling to listen to others and this makes other users like me quite frustrated and angry. The biggest advantage he is having is that he is online 24 hours a day, as he does not have any other work. But common people like me reach home quite tired at around 9 o'clock in the night after having done work for 12 hours continuously (I am a blue collar/ semi blue collar worker and does not have net access at my office). And when I reach home, all I find in wikipedia are posts made by Sanam abusing my caste. Whatever we write in the talk page gets swamped by tons and tons of lecture typed in by Sanam. (Also, he always uses the bold character, which is sometimes removed by other users).
• Even after all these efforts made by other users, user Sanam still argues that we are not willing to take the issue to admins. (Actually we have done so at least 3-4 times). The real reason is that as people having a job to worry about, we are not being able to devote much time to wikipedia. Even now this futile argument is costing people like me quite a lot of energy and time.
• Another factor is that Sanam accuses others of being emotional and trying to lynch him. When someone is abusing someone else racially, the abuser will have a huge advantage over the victim. It is the emotionality. The victim will get quite emotional and start doing things which he will never due under normal circumstances, while the abuser will stay calm as he has nothing to worry about. If the admins check some of his earlier posts in the Nair and Ezhava articles, then they will be able to find the racist language he used.
• The sources he is citing, like those by the Kanippayyur Nambuthiri reminds me of the propaganda by Joseph Goebbels against the Jews during the Nazi rule.
• The most important thing which I was trying to convey through the talk page is that even by Sanam's own definition, the interpretation he gives out is completely wrong. I had posted it a few times in the talk page, but Sanam was never willing to discuss it.

I don't have anything more to say about this. I hope the admins will take a neutral and unbiased decision. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 15:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked Sanam001 (talk · contribs) and Anandks007 (talk · contribs) for 24 hours for edit warring. I would encourage Sanam001 not to try to get around 3RR by logging out in the future. In addition, I have protected the page for 1 week. Discuss on the talk page. Follow WP:dispute resolution procedures. If you have references that establish the present-day offensiveness of the term, supply them.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

A simple google search (Sudra + derogatory) is enough to ascertain the present day offensiveness of the term, as can be seen here (Note.6), here, here, here & here. And regarding the colonial POV pushed by Sanam, I have put up a section here to prove that his points are not even supported by the biased sources he is putting up. (As ususal, he used diversionary tactics and never directly answered the questions asked to him). Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 17:50, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The source of encouragement is meat puppetry by user User:Anandks007. He has encouraged all other users to initiate edit wars with me instead of assuming good faith during content dispute. The proof of his recent meatpuppetry is here . I am myslef a nayar and being classified as sat-sudra has never been a shame for me but rather a matter of my natural dignity and has never affected my judgement of analysing anthropological material pertaining to my own community. I beleive in a POV free nayar image. The usage of sat-shudra in the specific context of the Kerala-society is not derogatory, it simply means clean-serviles by hereditary profession and includes lpeasants, soldiers, land-holders and even the ruling elite- vis a vis – a sudra king (see Ref1-. Ref2- )

No one here asked about your ethnicity. You are stating ten times a day that you are a Nair, and at the same time you are hurling racial abuse on Nair community. The term Sudra is derogatory in any occasion, and government of India never uses this term and considers it usage to be racial abuse. In fact if you call any one "Sudra", then most probably you will spend some time in prison for racially abusing that person. Only your anonymity is preventing other users from taking legal action against you. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The effort is by a cabal who are a subset of my own community armed with inadequate information trying to supplant the natural dignity of my community by peacocking to generate a POV nayar image. This same subset of individuals accusing me of using the term without understanding the terminology in the specific cultural context of kerala is simultaneously actively engaged in incorporating the same epithet on to other sub-divisions of my community !!!. See evidence in Line 6 items 10-20. User: Anandks007- – User: Suresh.Varma.123- - If their definition for the term is derogatory why are the incorporating it on other clans within the same community ? I hope you understand the wider objectives of these set of users.A few references along with authors background is given to administrators to the legitimacy of term Malayala sudra and for the maintenance of the original version of the article which includes nayar in this category.

1. It is mentioned in other encyclopedia by Author- Edward Balfour- Balfour's works on collating information about various aspects of life in India led to the publication of the Cyclopaedia of India, the first edition in 1857

His documentation

“the malayalam sudras of which the better class are called nayars (or lords) are the bulk of the respectable population-the landholders, farmers, soldiers, officials…….…”

Link for verification: In addition specifically within the context of Kerala society, it simply means depressed ritual status although in pan Indian scenarios the word has been sometimes mis-used by caste fanatics for discriminatory puposes. The word sat-sudra in Kerala society needs to be understood within it own jurisprudence.

2. Author- Edgar Thurston- He wrote the seven volumes of "Castes and Tribes of Southern India"; these volumes are the standard reference on the subject

His documentation

“The original Nayars were undoubtedly a military body, holding lands and serving as a militia, but the present Nayar caste includes persons who, by hereditary occupation, are traders, artisans, oilmongers, palanquin- bearers, and even barbers and washermen. The fact seems to be that successive waves of immigrration brought from the Canarese and Tamil countries different castes and different tribes; and these, settling down in the country, adopted the customs and manners, and assumed the caste names of the more respectable of the commu- nity that surrounded them. This process of assimilation is going (Ml even yet”

“The Travancore Nayars are popularly known as Malayala Sudras — a term which contrasts them sharply with the Pandi or foreign Sudras, of whom a large number immigrated into Travancore in later times”. Link:

3. A spurious peacock claim exists in Misplaced Pages called Malayala Kshatriya with a version stating that Nayars are known by the term Malayala Kshatriya in an effort to peacock. The content of Malayala Kshatriya stating Nairs as part of it is debatable when you read in detail those manuscripts in its entirity . References and manipulating the interpretation of the inference of the reference to make this spurious claim.

A. In support of this I provide Author- Walter (M. R. A. S.) Hamilton- The east india gazeteer vol 11

“The next most remarkable caste are the Nairs, who although Sudras are at once the chief landed proprietors and principal military tribe of Malabar”

“All Nairs pretend to be soldiers but they donot all follow the martial profession, many practicing the arts of husbandry, accounts , weaving, carpentry………………….”

Link:

B. The following PhD thesis from the Department of History at MG university. It describes Nayar regulation Act, Travancore Kshatriya Act etc and provides extensive information of the legal distinction between the two communities Nayars and Malayala Kshatriya. POV pushing of Nayar image as Malayala Kshatriya, The PhD thesis is titled History of Social legistlation in Travancore state'

Link:

In addition they intent to push a POV image of the entire nayar community as ruling elite. Nayar is an umbrella term for a variety of distinct lineages professing multiple professions. Furthe references. 1. Changing kinship usages in the setting of political and economic changes among the nayars of Malabar by E Kathleen Glough in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 82, No. 1

2. The internal structure of the nayar caste by C.J Fuller in the Journal of anthropological research 1975

3.Nayars of Malabar by Fawcett

I am still open to dispute resolution and have provided two neutral options The caste-terminolgies are either to be totally abandoned to avoided. Kindly see my neutral solution. . However instead of addressing the neutral solution of completely removing all caste-terms both sudra and kshatriya (in all forms and derives) I am faced with meat puppetry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanam001 (talk • contribs) 16:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

User Sanam is using a very specific, orthodox definiton of the word Kshatriya (according to Brahmin POV) to claim that Nairs are not kshatriyas; this is clearly wrong and a POV from user Sanam001. Here is the (general) definition of Kshatriya according to Enclyclopaedia Britannica:

"second highest in ritual status of the four varnas, or social classes, of Hindu India, traditionally the military or ruling class.

The earliest Vedic texts listed the Kshatriya (holders of kshatra, or authority) as first in rank, then the Brahmans (priests and teachers of law), next the Vaishya (merchant-traders), and finally the Sudra (artisans and labourers). Movements of individuals and groups from one class to another, both upward and downward, were not uncommon; a rise in status even to the rank of Kshatriya was a recognized reward for outstanding service to the rulers of the day. The legend that the Kshatriya were destroyed by Parasurama, the sixth avatar of Vishnu, as a punishment for their tyranny is thought by some scholars to reflect a long struggle for supremacy between priests and rulers. Brahmanic texts such as the Manu-smrti (a book of Hindu law) and most other dharmashastras (works of jurisprudence) report a Brahman victory, but epic texts often offer a different account, and it is likely that in social reality rulers have usually ranked first. The persistent representation of deities (especially Vishnu, Krishna, and Rama) as rulers underscores the point, as does the elaborate series of ritual roles and privileges pertaining to kings through most of Hindu history. These largely buttress the image of a ruler as preserver of dharma (religious and moral law) and auspicious wealth. In modern times, the Kshatriya varna includes a broad class of caste groups, differing considerably in status and function but united by their claims to rulership, the pursuit of war, or the possession of land " .

The Nairs clearly match this definition; here are some refs describing the Nairs as a Noble/Ruling/Military/Kshatriya caste:

• Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bombay, Volume 5 By Asiatic Society of Bombay,Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Bombay Branch page 40: "... to aid the Kshatriya (Nair) rulers,..."
  
• Three-quarters of a footprint: travels in South India By Joe Roberts page 221: "... a Nair (the Malabar equivalent equivalent of the Kshatriya)..."
  
• Fragments of a life: a family archive by Mythily Sivaraman: "... headed by his majesty with Nair (kshatriya) officers"
  
• Indian classical dances By K. C. Balakrishna Menon page 32: "After the decline of Perumal rule in Kerala, the Nayar Kshatriya rulers became powerful"
  
• Comprehensive Dictionary of the World, Volume 5, Part 1 By Thomas Wright page 428: "The Kshatriya, or military class is said by the Brahmins to be extinct. But the Rajpoots and the Nairs in the Deccan in all probability belong to this class, though the Brahmins assert that they are only Sudras."
  

User Sanam001 is using books based on colonial era POV & a very specific, POV definition of the word Kshatriya to assert his claim. He absolutely refuses to acknowledge evidences shown to him by other users. This is intolerable & can't be accepted by other (honest) wiki users. The use of the word Kshatriya in Nair wiki article is not at all a peacock contrary to what user Sanam001 claim. Please have a look on Nair talk page and take the appropriate decision.90.46.32.29 (talk) 20:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

If the administrators are willing they are most welcome to send my earlier mentioned citations to reserach articlles, PhD thesis claiming nayars as sat-shudras as well as the citations of User: Suresh.Varma.123 and IP 90.46.32.29 to an expert committee to make an evaluation of whether nayars were classified as sudra or kshatriya. (I can even prepare a specific more elaborate collection towards this on request). The internet and wikipedia are being widely manipulated for pretentious propaganda and this specific issue of Nayar being Kshatriya is a classical example and should not be acceptable in an collaborative collective information resource such as Misplaced Pages.For instance the encyclopedia brittanica () does not use the term Kshatriya to define nayar unlike the peacocking of the above editor. Interestingly, these individuals accusing me of using the derogatory term sudra is simultaneously actively engaged in incorporating the same epithet on to other sub-divisions within the nayar community !!!. See evidence in Line 6 items 10-20. By User: Anandks007- –

By User: Suresh.Varma.123- -

You can clearly see that I was reverting your section blanking, as the article was reverted to an earlier version. The term Sudra was added to it by a different user and needs to be changed to a more politically correct term (Most probably to Kammalar, which was the term used for artisan classes). But as editors like me are busy in fighting your edit wars, there is no time to properly modify the article. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 03:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

If their definition for the term is derogatory why are they incorporating it on other clans within the same community ? I hope you understand the wider objectives of these set of users. Infact I have made a neutral solution offer where the word sudra is not used at all provided nayar and all nayar related articles avoid the peacocking with the term kshatriya or any sentences that may infer so and removing the name of my community (nair) from under the malayal kshatriya article. Meaning a caste terminology free definition of the community- but these offers have been not even been entertained by these users making their motives very clear . Anyways I would like to re-focus on the primary issue of my reason for beseaching the administrators notice board – (1) addressing the content dispute at the level of formal mediation by experts in the field (2) addressing the meat-puppetry perpetrated on me by user Anandks007 recently. I would also sincerely wish that if at any point in future time that i may get to a point of being blocked permanently by an administrator due to strategies of these concerted users, then the blocking administrator may sent my entire edit summary and data to any part of wikipedia foundation that may be interested in taking up studies on how to improve the wikipedia system from cabala related problem. I sincerely wish that my experiences may be useful for improving the regulatory practices that can be developed in future.--Sanam001 (talk) 01:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Really cheap tactics to earn sympathy. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 07:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually the users are wondering about the "wider objectives" of your edits. See the list of users who have protested against your POV pushing (Suresh, Anand, Keraleeyan, Zero.vishnu, 116.74.15.88, Linguisticgeek, 90.46.32.29). Most of these users who have protested against you are editing Misplaced Pages for many years and are disturbed by your attitude and behavior. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 03:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I urge the admins to issue a topic ban to Sanam, as he has started edit wars on at least 25 occasions on the same set of articles. Axxn (talk) 03:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

That is precisely what i am implying.If you carefully read my above post in good faith you will understand the need for (1) formal mediation of this dispute by experts who will judge my citations and yours without any prejuice (2) Avoid coccussing tendency of a community of users with well established agenda to mis-represent information on a web-based encyclopedia (3) The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So do go through the middle solution I have recommended least i am entitled as any other wikipedia editor to the duty of maintaining authenticity of the article whether the disagreement is with 1 or 10. Remember that it takes two to cause an edit war and meat puppetry is strongly discouraged by wikipedia--Sanam001 (talk) 04:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: User Sanam001 placed an {{adminhelp}} on their talk page; I nulled it, and advised that the matter was already noted here.  Chzz  ►  04:38, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the immediate attention.--Sanam001 (talk) 04:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

How this edit war started? - This edit war was started about 3 months ago, when User Sanam posted derogatory remarks about the Ezhava community here. His aim was to create a Nair-Ezhava edit war (happening frequently here for the past 5-6 years) and very nearly succeeded as a number of disruptive edits happened within days of this incident in Nair related articles and the talk paage itself like this one. However some of the users were able to convince them of Sanam's real intention as seen here, and the edit wars immediately stopped from their side. It was after this incident, that Sanam began vandalizing Nair related articles. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 07:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

The wider intentions of these users is to generally peacock all nayar articles with a varna terminology -Kshatriya. Even more dangerous is their intention to attach the epithet kshatriya to certain sub-divisions of the nayar society and sudras to other sub-divisions see Nair subcastes . These actions have been perpetrated by the following users. See evidence in Line 6 items 10-20.By User: Anandks007- – By User: Suresh.Varma.123- - .A malefied motivation is further suspected due to the non willingness of these users for my invitation for a neutral solution to avoid completely any varna terminology in all nayar related articles !!!!. I have been voluntarily refrained further edits on these articles for more than last 24 hours, simply assuming good faith and providing these editors the opportunity to focus on the primary issuees- as the following remains still unaddressed (1) formal mediation of this dispute by experts who will judge my citations and yours without any prejuice (2) Avoid coccussing tendency of a community of users with well established agenda to mis-represent information on a web-based encyclopedia (3) The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So do go through the middle solution here I have recommended least i am entitled as any other wikipedia editor to the duty of maintaining authenticity of the article whether the disagreement is with 1 or 10. Remember that it takes more than one to cause an edit war and meat puppetry as perpetrated here is strongly discouraged by wikipedia.--Sanam001 (talk) 21:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

User Sanam001, you are refusing to answer to our questions and you want us to accept your POV ???... Who are you ???... FIRST PLEASE GIVE YOUR ANSWER TO MY LAST QUESTION (see Nair talk page).90.46.156.230 (talk) 01:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit war started once again by Sanam. Axxn (talk) 09:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The above users have refused to consider NPOV in the last 48 hrs provided to them ingood faith. The focus on the primary issuees- as the following remains still unaddressed (1) formal mediation of this dispute by experts who will judge my citations and yours without any prejuice (2) Avoid coccussing tendency of a community of users with well established agenda to mis-represent information on a web-based encyclopedia (3) The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So do go through the middle solution here I have recommended least i am entitled as any other wikipedia editor to the duty of maintaining authenticity of the article whether the disagreement is with 1 or 10. Remember that it takes more than one to cause an edit war and meat puppetry as perpetrated here is strongly discouraged by wikipedia.Sanam001 (talk) 10:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

What you mean by "The above users have refused to consider NPOV" ? If you take a look at the talk page, it is very clear that User Sanam is the one who is editing without any consensus and pushing POV. Axxn (talk) 10:51, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Focus of this reported incident Sanam001 (talk) 11:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Sanam's vandalism spreading to other articles. (Kiryathil Nair). Axxn (talk) 11:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Please do something to prevent such vandalism. This is really intolerable. User Sanam001 refuses to answer to our questions and is acting according to his wish, POV. This is not the right way to work in wikipedia.90.46.156.230 (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The need to resolve disputes not by sticking to ones stand point but coming to neutral solutions. So do go through the middle solution here and meat puppetry as perpetrated here is strongly discouraged by wikipedia.Sanam001 (talk) 14:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Sanam001, I went through your posts in the Nair talk page. It seems that you are copy pasting every single sentence atleast 10 times and you are never willing to accept any source other than your own. Also, your language seems too aggressive as you accuse some one of "meat puppetry", "POV pushing", "targetting in bad faith" .etc in almost every single post (You have made accusations against atleast 5-6 users). I read your points, but found it quite different from the definition which every one considers standard in classifying Indian cultural groups. It will be better if you could explain this anomaly in the talk page (Something which you have never bothered to do till now). Shannon1488 (talk) 14:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for user:Vexorg

Discussion has been moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Vexorg to save space on the ANI page and to centralize discussion. Please wait until this notice goes to the top of the ANI page before timestamping. –MuZemike

Tendentious editing; trolling

After existing more than a year without being edited even once, the Swiftboating article has been targeted by a tendentious editor: 68.35.3.66 (talk · contribs). He is intent on reversing the actual meaning of swiftboating. While all reliable sources note the term derives from the unsubstantiated charges, political attacks, innuendo and smears launched against John Kerry during his 2004 US presidential campaign, this editor insists just the opposite. His very first edit summary at the article explains his opinion:

• 12:23, 8 November 2009‎ (all of the charges were substantiated either by video of Kerry's anti-war activities or statements of fellow veterans)

Simple content dispute, correct? No. He has been asked by numerous editors to provide reliable sources to justify his edits, but he has refused - and instead just continues to insert his edits. When he is confronted with multiple reliable sources refuting his edits, he dismisses them as biased, opinions or unreliable (but refuses to check with WP:RSN) - and instead just continues to insert his edits. His edits against consensus have been criticized and reverted more than 20 times, by multiple editors and admins:

Reverting his unsourced and POV edits indefinitely isn't a problem, but the editor has also begun to expand his activities into soapboxing on the article talk page about the problems with Misplaced Pages; attacking editors as part of a "clique"; and "characterizing" editors with intent to "embarrass" them. When I moved his inappropriate article talk page comments to his user talk page for further discussion (instead of outright delete them as the advisory template at the top of the talk page suggests), he returned them. So now I'm dropping this in your collective lap. Good luck with it. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:42, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Xenophrenic... is lying. Most of my edits required no source or were better sourced. For example, explicitly attributing the "fact free" opinion to Manjoo, is supported by the Manjoo source of the same "fact free" statement. Note that for a long time, I was insisting on a source for the "not substantiated" statement that was originally on the page. You don't need a source to remove an unsourced statement. After considerable edit warring by the clique, they finally implicitly conceded my point that the source provided did not support the "not substantiated" statement, by switching to the "fact free" hyperbolic opinion of Manjoo from the same source. I, in good faith, admitted that this was supported by the source, and merely argued that this obviously untrue hyperbolic opinion should be explicitly attributed to its source, the author of the source they provided, i.e., Manjoo.

Note, that I edit in good faith, that I have voluntarily adhered to a higher 1RR standard, despite facing a clique and that in contrast Xenophrenic... has taken to edit warring on the discussion page. Note the lack of rigor in Xenophrenic... characterizations here. I doubt he can explicitly back up his claim of POV and unsourced edits. I assure you I can back up my characterizations of the behavior Xenophrenic... and the clique. The "fact free" POV editing by the clique, is obviously not in good faith and a violation of the spirit of wikipedia standards. I don't know if the letter of wikipedia standards can address such abuses. The clique is mocking wikipedia to its face.--68.35.3.66 (talk) 23:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Looking back over Xenophrenic...'s complaint above, it must be embarrassing how he can only quote the clique, and not examples of unsourced or POV edits, they must be hard to come by.--68.35.3.66 (talk) 23:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for proving each of my above points. I am sure the reviewing admins know the difference between reality and mere claims. They know the difference between "opinion" sources and quality research with citations and footnotes (see Manjoo). They can count - they know the difference between your many 1RRs, 2RRs (15:26, 12 February, 10:05, 13 February), 3RRs (04:54, 17 January, 07:00, 17 January, 07:10, 17 January), etc. They know that just because you haven't crossed the 3RR "bright line", it doesn't mean you aren't edit-warring. I reiterate my request to have an end put to the slow-burn edit warring, endless circular reasoning and personal attacks. Xenophrenic (talk) 11:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you explain which is POV and unsourced? The "not substantiated" statement which you and the clique have since abandoned, or my edits removing it, and insisting that you provide a source? Now you have replaced it with the obviously untrue hyperbole "fact free", and revert my compromise of attributing it to Manjoo, which is the source that the clique provided. Are you just inserting a statement you know to be untrue ... to prove you can? The power of your clique is most impressive, its ethics however is questionable.--68.35.3.66 (talk) 10:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Not taking the bait and I'm ignoring the attacks; letting the admins handle this. Updated. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

You didn't take the bait either, when I repeatedly requested a source for the "not substantiated" statement. Evidently you don't have to take bait when you are part of a clique.--68.35.3.66 (talk) 02:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

This was a dispute over a rather charged bit of information that was flagrantly in violation of WP:NPOV. The IP's efforts at fixing the problem were problematic, but Balloonman fixed it. Far too much drama for such a small dispute, and hopefully with the change in place this will die. -- Atama頭 23:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Atama, you appear to have access to some information of which I am unaware. Can you be a little more clear on the "flagrant NPOV violation" you observed? I'm not seeing it. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Please read WP:SUBSTANTIATE. Declaring that something is "fact-free" and "lacked any compelling evidence" in an article is making a POV comment, an opinion. To state that anything isn't "compelling" is an opinion; how can you factually state that evidence fails to "compel" anyone? I consider this is to be a violation of the policy. An example of the proper treatment of such material would be Adolf Hitler#Legacy. Note how it states, "Hitler, the Nazi Party and the results of Nazism are typically regarded as gravely immoral." If the article simply said, "Hitler, the Nazi Party and the results of Nazism are gravely immoral", that would be using Misplaced Pages to editorialize. Inserting politically-charged opinion as fact, even with a reference, is against Misplaced Pages policy. Just as with the Hitler example, it may be an opinion almost uniformly shared but nonetheless such wording is to be avoided. This discussion might be better located at WP:NPOV/N. -- Atama頭 02:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Your explanation, your example and the policy section you linked are all predicated upon the incorrect assumption that the material is an opinion, and not a statement of fact. Most of this discussion pivots around that specific point. If the wording expressed a person's opinion, it would indeed require attribution to that person, but it is not opinion - it is a simple statement of fact in a reliable source. If you wish to remove the word "compelling" from the factual statement, and leave it as "lacked any evidence", I won't argue against it. The issue here isn't how we convey the basic fact in the Misplaced Pages article: "The charges made by the SBVT campaign against Kerry _________________________ (fill in the blank)

• were unsubstantiated -- Associated Press
• lacked any compelling evidence -- Farhad Manjoo
• failed to come up with sufficient evidence Washington Post
• were fact-free -- Farhad Manjoo
• provided no justification for looking further into the decisions to award the medals or the anti-war activities -- Navy
• were dishonest and dishonorable -- John McCain
• can accurately and fairly be described as a smear -- History Detectives
• were misleading; mischaracterize the actual basis on which Kerry received his decorations Factcheck.org
• are more vicious; the lies cut deep; this smear campaign has been launched by people without decency Jim Rassmann
• is a dirty campaign that tries to paint a war hero as unpatriotic; the ugliest thing I've ever seen in politics Lee Iacocca

...the issue is that some editors are trying to paint the basic fact as a mere personal "opinion" by attributing it to a single individual. That is a violation of WP:NPOV. I do concede your point that the previous wording was unnecesarily "politically-charged", so I have rewritten the content so that it conveys the basic fact using the most encyclopedic (and least inflammatory) terminology. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

(←) First, Xenophrenic rewrote the disputed bit of text to be very encyclopedic, and I'm grateful for that. Second, the IP in question has edit-warred to remove 2 reliable sources and has reached 3RR. I left the IP a warning that they are one revert away from being blocked, and reverted their most recent change to the article. Since I'm now "involved" with the article it wouldn't be appropriate for me to block in case they defy this warning, but I'll see that it gets reported at the very least. I've also warned the IP against unfounded vandalism accusations. -- Atama頭 16:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

This is why this discussion is located here instead of at WP:NPOV/N. The IP editor has attacked other editors as vandals, liars, members of a "clique", all without justification. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I can't believe you guys don't proof read when vandalism has been cited. --68.35.3.66 (talk) 18:13, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Removal of comment at community de-adminship discussion

User:Brews ohare has just been banned for 48 hours by User:Sandstein because Brews violated an Arbcom restriction of posting on such venues. While this seems to be a routine Arbcom ban, I see two problems here:

1) Sandstein's previous block of Brews on similar grounds and his subsequent unblocking by User:Trusilver is still under discussion at Arbcom. Is it proper for Sandstein to act again while the previous case has not yet been settled?

2) This is a more general objection. The RFC is about Admins. If in this RFC we cannot allow in some comments by editors who are under sanctions, it seems to me that the RFC omits relevant comments and is thus biased in an essential way. Count Iblis (talk) 00:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

As for 1, while it is still under discussion, the Committee does not take issue with any of Sandstein's recent actions, so I don't see any issue with him acting here. As for 2, Brews's restrictions as laid out at the bottom of this page state that he is not to be editing the Misplaced Pages: namespace; this has not been rescinded. Most users under sanction would not be forbidden from commenting there. If you feel as though an exception should be made for this case, you should file a request for amendment with the Committee at WP:RFAR. Hersfold 01:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

If Brews ohare had, in the past, wanted to see that his comments would be heard and his opinion aired, he would have altered his behavior to within acceptable limits. It is the reasonable consequence of the violation of acceptable behavioral norms to have restrictions placed to curb those violations. If having his opinion be part of discussions was a motivation for Brews ohare, then he shouldn't have done what he had done to earn his sanctions. --Jayron32 01:48, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• I don't see any scope for ambiguity in the restriction and I don't see any problem with the block. Brews has to learn that you can't just ignore sanctions, if you want them varied you have to go through the right process. If people don't stick to sanctions then we have no hope at all of keeping Misplaced Pages on the rails. Guy (Help!) 09:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

From a purely Wiki-procedural POV, there indeed doesn't seem to be a problem. However, the "ban is ban logic" doesn't lead to good outcomes without proper independent appeals procedures in which the facts of the original case and how that's relevant to the latest complaints can be brought up. The situation Brews finds himself in now is similar of that 17 year old US citizen is who had sex with his 16 year old girlfriend. Her angry dad complained and the boy was found guilty of "sex with a minor", branded a pedophile and is now in jail for violating the restriction that bans him from being within one kilometer from schools (the dad of the girl complained when he saw the boy near a local school). Count Iblis (talk) 13:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Seriously? *Cringes* Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:14, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Consider e.g. the way Brews was hit with the namespace ban. That had no basis in the orginal Arbcom case and was motivated purely by a few other involved people in the SoL case who had refused to drop the stick in an effort to get him permanently banned.

Brews was sticking to his topic ban when he was editing my essay WP:ESCA with the approval of me and all the other main editors ( and he he had already contributed to this before the ArbCom case). It were a few editors involved in the original ArbCom case who were following Brews' every move, including his contribution to the essay and launching frivolous AE requests time after time again. ArbCom decided to appease these editors and agree to a requested namespace ban. Count Iblis (talk) 15:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• I've hesitated before involving myself in this, but I have some concerns relating to Count Iblis' point number 2. The comment at the CDA RfC was completely reverted, as opposed to being indented to remove its numbering. I would have no objection to doing so if it were clear to me that this comment had been a violation of the restrictions. I have no prior familiarity with this dispute, but I read the link provided by Hersfold, and I find the wording there confusing. "Brews ohare is restricted from editing any namespaces to begin, or comment on physics related content, disputes stemming from physics-related content, meta-discussion or meta-content (policy, guidelines, essays, polls, RfCs and the like) concerning the editing of scientific topics in general, or physics in particular, or the recognition of minority views." The CDA poll is in no way related to physics, policies etc concerning the editing of scientific topics, or minority views about science. On the other hand, it clearly is about "policy, guidelines...polls, RfCs and the like" in general, and the wording of the restriction is unclear, at least to me, about that. The first sentence of the restrictions places the Misplaced Pages namespace off limits, seemingly in its entirety, but then the sentence I quoted seems to restrict that limit to science-related material. So, I'm asking, was the comment at the RfC, in fact, precluded by the restrictions? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:55, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Tznkai's restriction of 07:33, 24 November 2009, contains two independent prohibitions:

• (a) Brews ohare is indefinitely restricted from editing Misplaced Pages and Misplaced Pages talk namespaces.
• (b) Brews ohare is restricted from editing any namespaces to .

In this instance, the first prohibition was infringed, not the second.  Sandstein  23:17, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This type of harassment should be stopped--- Sandstein is an adminstrator, and needs to be held to a higher standard. He could have let other administrators deal with the problem, if there was one.

As for Brews' block--- it was never justified to begin with. The political circus is distracting.Likebox (talk) 21:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• As a general comment, it should be clarified that the restriction in Misplaced Pages namespace was brought up by Brews repeated refusal to disengage from battles that stemmed from the ARBCOM/SoL case. This was done for two purposes. 1) So dead horses would stop getting beaten. 2) So Brews could get back to productive editing. Brews giving his opinion here is clearly a continuation of the recent developments of various ARBCOM/SoL-related issues, which again prevents him from being productive. I'll have to admit I'm stunned by the level of cluelessness displayed by Brews' by trying to test the limits of his ban once again, especially after being served a ban not even one week ago for the same reason (although last time it was physics-related as well, so that was a double-violation). I have no opinion on the appropriateness of this block however. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 22:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Since my concern expressed above was with respect to reverting the !vote at the CDA poll, and based upon the answers provided by Sandstein and Headbomb, I now consider my question to have been answered to my satisfaction, and I have no objection to letting the reversion of the CDA edit stand. Obviously, I am not in a position to comment knowledgeably about the other issues here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

To answer David Tombe's question to me below, it was simply that I AGF that these two users are answering honestly, which I still do. But, given that there seems to be ambiguity about whether there really was a sanction that applied to the CDA poll, I have stricken part of my comment, until I can find out what is really the case. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

There has been far too much weight attached to Tznkai's phantom sanctions. To begin with, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the original ARBCOM sanctions that allows Tznkai to make any sanctions in the absence of a transgression. Hence Tznkai's sanctions are ultra vires. Tznkai was acting beyond his powers. Secondly, Tznkai expressed his intention to end his phantom sanctions in January. You can see the relevant diff here. Thirdly, Tznkai doesn't write in clear English, and most people have difficulty trying to figure out what he means. Tznkai submitted this statement to the ongoing arbitration case against Trusilver, relating to Trusilver's unblock of Sandstein's last block of Brews ohare. Here is the statement. Despite the fact that it is very hard to understand this statement, it should nevertheless be at least clear that the phantom sanctions have expired. The most ridiculous sentence is where Tznkai states that he was intending to lift the sanctions but that Brews didn't seem to be interested! What sort of a ridiculous thing is that to say? Who is ever going to object to sanctions against themselves being lifted? Of course Brews wanted the phantom sanctions to be lifted. It is a straw man argument if ever there was to say that the sanctions would have been lifted if Brews had wanted them to be lifted, but that he didn't seem to show any interest. Fourthly, even if, for the sake of argument, we accept Tznkai's phantom sanctions to be intra vires, there can be no possible reading of those ambiguous sanctions that would say that Brews could not vote in that poll. That poll had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with physics. Sandstein's blocking of Brews was a vindictive act of bullying, and it is sad that no sooner had Count Iblis opened this thread when three apologists stepped forward to endorse Sandstein's act of bullying, and that one of those three is a serving member of the arbitration committee. And it's further sad that when Sandstein blocked Brews ohare that he chose to put up a banner to intimidate other administrators from lifting the block, by claiming that it was an ARBCOM sanction that had been breached. It wasn't an ARBCOM sanction that was breached. It wasn't even a phantom Tznkai sanction that was breached. No sanction was breached. So now we have a situation where any administrator can block anybody and claim the lie that the block is for breach of an ARBCOM sanction, and that means that the block is secured. This is a dreadful state of affairs that needs to be reversed. There is no mechanism in place to review the legitimacy of a claim that a block has been based on an ARBCOM sanction. And to Tryptofish, it sure beats me what it was that Sandstein and Headbomb said that makes you now happy that all is well. David Tombe (talk) 23:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Request to unblock

I placed this unblock request for Brews ohare on his talk page. It was declined, because I am not Brews ohare (although Brews ohare, who I have been in email contact with for a few weeks, is currently on a trip and has limited access). I place it here to get review, and if nothing happens, I will have to ask ArbCom to intevene:

This unblock request is NOT FROM BREWS OHARE. I have placed this request for him, because I am outraged by this block:

1. There is an ongoing ArbCom case involving Sandstein block Brews ohare. Why is he blocking him again? Couldn't he wait for another admin to do it instead? It doesn't look impartial. User:William M. Connolley was desysopped for this exact reason.
2. The sanctions which are being enforced are seriously out-of-date and seriously misinterpreted by Sandstein. The namespace ban, if it exists at all, does not apply to voting on these sorts of motions. The intended scope of the sanctions were clarified by the sanctioner Tznkai at the Arbitration just a few days ago. They were a temporary measure, never held up for vote, never reviewed, and instituted for silly reasons. They have nothing to do with the original case, or the original complaints against Brews ohare.
3. It is essential that administrators get together and stop abusive blocks using this template. Just because you claim to be enforcing ArbCom restrictions does not mean that you are in fact doing so.
4. I am not happy with the way things are going politically here. The template above was designed to intimidate administrators from reviewing ArbCom related blocks. I am hoping at least one administrator has the courage of conviction to undo this.

If this is not the proper place for asking for an unblock, where is?Likebox (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• It's funny, I spent quite a bit of time over the last few days explaining to Brews' friends that hyperbole, anger, aggression, assumptions of bad faith and assertions that the sky is falling have, in my not inconsiderable experience, very close to the lowest success rate of all ways of resolving contested issues. Seems you don't believe me. I suggest you do a little reading around, because I would venture to suggest that many admins are going to dismiss the statement you make above based simply on its tone and the number of repetitions of the same or similar stuff in recent days. You might want to give some thought to what Einstein said about repeatedly trying the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Dude, Einstein never said that. Einstein repeated himself on relativity for twenty years and on quantum mechanics for thirty years. I am following Einsteins' lead here.Likebox (talk) 07:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

When I did the original unblock of Brews, it was under the rationale that the block was excessive and under circumstances so vague that no rational person would have expected to get blocked over. I feel that Brews needs to address the heart of the issue - the namespace sanction itself, which Tznkai himself clearly said that he never intended to go on as long as it has. While this block does smell suspiciously like WP:POINT to me (it doesn't take much more than a shred of common sense to conclude that this sanction is being enforced for reasons completely contrary to the reasons it was implemented to begin with), the last block should have made it clear to Brews that his namespace block is still very much in effect and he needs to act accordingly until the sanction itself is removed. Trusilver 00:12, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Trusilver, I concur with most of what you have written. But I do think that the validity and the meaning of Tznkai's additional sanctions needs to be fully investigated impartially, because abuse arises in the absence of clarity. See the statement that I made further up a few minutes ago. David Tombe (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

There are methods to contest sanctions you do not agree with. Violating the sanction because you don't agree with it and then claiming that the sanction shouldn't apply is not one of them. I note that Tznkai had attempted to communicate with Brews to work out terms for the topic ban to end in january, but it didn't work so well. (from the RfArb discussion, and the statement by Tznkai). Brews kohare knew that the sanction was still in effect from the last time he got blocked. While I have to say in my personal opinion that I would have preferred someone other then Sandstein have done the block, as we are working on the motions for that one currently, I don't see any issues with the block itself. SirFozzie (talk) 01:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

SirFozzie, The issue with the block is that Brews's edit wasn't physics related in any way. Let's see a bit more assumption of good faith please. You must know fine well that Tznkai doesn't write clearly. And you must know fine well that it was a total stretch to interpret his wording such as to make Brews's edit into an offence. In fact, if we were to take Tznkai's wording literally, it would mean that Brews isn't allowed to edit wikipedia at all. And you do know fine well that those supposed sanctions had lapsed if they ever existed at all. On your other point, you are wrong. There is absolutely no mechanism in place whatsoever to defend against false interpretations of ARBCOM sanctions. In the aftermath of the ARBCOM case last October, additional sanctions were heaped on Brews by a pincer process. I'll explain it to you, as if you don't it know already. Brews could be stating opinions perfectly legitimately on policy pages. The physics topic ban would have had no application. But it only took any editor with a grudge against Brews to take offence at the fact that Brews had the cheek to be expressing opinions at all, and they would then abuse the ARBCOM process and take out an arbitration enforcement action on the basis of a false allegation, for the purpose of settling a private score. It then only took an administrator to sign the false allegation. That is how it was done, and the administrator in question would justify himself on the grounds that since somebody else had made the allegation in the first place, then it must be true. It was a case of passing the buck of responsibility between two people, so that neither would feel any guilt, as like the ten men on the firing squad. Well if I hadn't pulled the trigger, the other nine would have, so it didn't make any difference. SirFozzie, this is called corruption and there is absolutely no appeal mechanism to investigate whether or not 'Tznkai type' sanctions are ultra vires or not. And so any admin who acts boldly on such a weak premises is clearly assuming bad faith. The original ARBCOM sanctions are quite explicit that a transgression needs to occur before the likes of Tznkai can issue a decree. And Brews's opinions on policy pages did not breach his topic ban. They only breached the decrees which Tznkai himself created. That is called moving the goal posts. And SirFozzie, the fact that you can see fault in Brews ohare's activities and yet not see any fault in Sandstein's activities indicates clearly that as a member of the arbitration committee, your bias is appalling. Sandstein blocked an editor with whom he is involved in an arbitration case. There is already a precedent for that kind of behaviour indicating that Sandstein has basically put himself forward for desysoping. I would imagine that if Sandstein is not desysoped that William Connolley will feel somewhat angry. David Tombe (talk) 02:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)\

David, even Trusilver, who did the unblock at issue in the case currently before ArbCom, says Brews should have been aware that his sanction was still in force, and he's not surprised that Brews was blocked for violating it again. I reiterate, if you disagree with a sanction, there are ways to have it reviewed. However, violating those sanctions and then again complaining that the sanctions "shouldn't count" isn't going to be one of those ways. As for your last couple of statements, I'd say that the "dispute" in the ArbCom case is not between Brews ohare and Sandstein, no matter how much you say it is (the better to disqualify him from taking actions in the area, right?). So I wouldn't quite be holding my breath for hoping for Sandstein to have his mop revoked. SirFozzie (talk) 04:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

In fact, Brews was under the impression that voting would violate his namespace ban. I thought that this was ridiculous, considering that Tznkai qualified just now what he meant, and that the vote has nothing to do with blocks, or physics. It also didn't occur to me that anyone would complain, and I asked him if he could vote, considering that things are close.

There is a definite dispute between Sandstein and Brews here, but I don't think Sandstein should be desysopped, just asked to stay neutral. I honestly think that there would have been no drama if he hadn't blocked in this POINTy way. It honestly never occured to me that anyone would come to the same wrong interpretation that Sandstein came to twice, especially when there is an ongoing ArbCom case. My fault for giving bad advice.Likebox (talk) 07:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind that if Sandstein hadn't been following Brews around, nobody would have noticed the "violation" of a namespace ban that didn't really exist except in Sandstein's imagination.Likebox (talk) 08:00, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I had seen it, and I wondered how on Earth brews could be so clueless. So I wondered how long it would take before someone would report it. DVdm (talk) 12:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

SirFozzie, Despite what Trusilver has said, it didn't even occur to me that Brews ohare had broken his ban when he voted in that poll. My guess is that Trusilver is as yet only slowly beginning to understand the depths of this can of worms. It's time that people started to examine the raw cold facts instead of playing card games with what other people have said. Tznkai resigned from the ARBCOM audit sub-committee in January, and then about a week later he revoked his resignation. Tznkai can't write in a manner that makes his point clearly. He doesn't seem to know whether he is coming or going. He doesn't seem to know whether he believes his ambiguous decrees are still in force or not. So please stop repeating so boldly that Brews ohare broke a sanction. There is more than sufficient grounds in this case, due to the ambiguities connected with Tznkai, to assume just a little bit of good faith in respect to Brews ohare. And I haven't seen any good faith whatsoever exercised in relation to Brews ohare for a long time. As regards desysoping, I don't want to single out any particular administrators for dysoping. As regards Sandstein, I was merely drawing attention to your gross bias in seeing fault with Brews ohare while seeing no fault with Sandstein. I was pointing out how another administrator was desysoped for similar actions to those of Sandstein, yet you could see absolutely no fault in his actions. And how can you possibly say that the ongoing arbitration request is not based ultimately on a dispute between Sandstein and Brews ohare? Of course it is. That's exactly the root of the problem. Trusilver is being used as a scapegoat, but the original dispute is between Sandstein and Brews ohare. And finally, nobody needs to go through any prolonged bureaucratic procedures in order to see that Tznkai's sanctions are ultra vires. It's very simple to see that Brews ohare did not breach any rules that would have allowed Tznkai to have instigated his phantom sanctions in the first place. If there is any good faith on the part of ARBCOM, they will formally debunk Tznkai's sanctions here and now and let's end all this ambiguity. But that is the last thing that I expect to happen, because it strikes me that certain elements are having a field day hounding and bullying Brews ohare on the back of Tznkai's ambiguities. Finally, I notice that there was some over-sighting went on here last night. One of my edits was over-sighted. David Tombe (talk) 09:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• OK, the raw cold facts here are that (a) Brews is under a restriction which he has been testing ever since it was enacted and (b) that every time it happens you and a few others come back wanting to overturn the sanction and ideally refight the arbitration case, which ain't going to happen here because it's the wrong venue (for either outcome). Oh, and (c) virtually every discussion is into WP:TLDR territory in minutes. Guy (Help!) 16:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• If you didn't read, JzG, you don't know anything about this case. Stop commenting on things you don't know anything about. I had to read repetitive crap for hours on Speed of Light archives and ArbCom archives, and it was a pain, before I could figure out what was going on.

I can tell you for sure that Brews has never, ever tested his sanctions. He has always acted in good faith to respect them, even though they were a crock of shit right from the beginning. The reason he gets blocked is because admins and Arbitrato are lazy and don't read, and Brews was indignant about the injustice and complained a lot (alone) in the beginning. So people exploited this to make up a large volume of specious complaints against him, and since he was in the doghouse and had no friends, he gets blocked a lot.

I did not get involved in this until much later, when I started to pore over the archived material on Speed of Light. Brews was arguing a minor point (which I disagreed with) but he was arguing it correctly, and arguing it persuasively, although the text he was inserting into the article was no good. Eventually, people got tired of talking to him, took it to ArbCom, made him look like a lunatic, presented crap evidence of do-nothing diffs, and ArbCom just went along with the majority without thinking, the way they often do, especially when the defendant is representing himself, incompetently.

The reason ArbCom went along is not because they are corrupt or blind. It was because Brews was longwinded, and had too much talk-page banter, and they wanted the Speed of light drama to end. But Brews was good intentioned, and never did anything bad-faith (that continues to this day). That distinguishes him from his opponents. The reason he was so incompetent at arguing his point is because he is a scientist, and it is impossible for scientists to beat lawyers in the court of popular opinion, because they talk too much and in a way that is too full of self-doubt, while their opponents sound like the voice of God.

The issue here is that ArbCom is not equipped to handle technical content disputes, and the Mediation Cabal refused to hear the speed of light case, probably because it was too technical. The technical disputes on Misplaced Pages cannot be resolved by blocks. They are deep content disputes which need to be resolved by people sitting down and thinking about what to include in a hyperbole free environment. You need a technical mediation cabal for this stuff.Likebox (talk) 17:00, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the points raised by Likebox here. Another factor that may play a role here is that Brews is a bit older than the average Wikipedian (I think about 70 years old). It makes a difference if you have been used to chatting on the internet from the age of five onwards or have been online only from the age of 60 (and only that for limited amounts of time). Just like an autistic person will have difficulties picking up nonverbal clues e.g. that he is talking too much, Brews was having difficulties seeing and acting on the not so explicit feedback that he should stop arguing so much on the talk page. So what he lacked was the ability to sense the general climate on the talk page which to most of us younger people comes naturally. Count Iblis (talk) 18:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I am older than the average Wikipedian, too. I suspect my kids are average Wikipedian age :-) The fact remains that, and I really can't say this any stronger, this is the wrong venue. And the people above have consistently raised it in the wrong venue, and usually in the wrong terms. This has to be considered through the arbitration process. Guy (Help!) 20:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if Likebox et al. considered what the most parsimonious explanation was in this case.

1. Brew's block is warranted, and those fighting to have it repealed every second week are only making things worse by beating a horse in every imaginable way possible (by wikilawyering, appealing to Jimbo, claiming violations of blocks you don't agree isn't evidence of disruption, ...) everyone but them thinks is long dead.
2. Every arbitrator, every reviewing admin, and everyone who does not agree with those fighting it are lazy morons who are either incapable or unwilling to exercise independent thought, and have been brainwash be the "Headbomb Cabal".

Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 02:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Headbomb, The original injustice against Brews was done by ARBCOM largely at your behest. You instigated the AN/I motion which led to the damage being done on him. Therefore it's hardly surprising that you wanted him to bury the hatchet once the damage was done. Guy(JzG) you know nothing whatsoever about the case, but you are clearly one of these special kind of people who always stands by the actions of those who are in authority. You are very good at finding technical faults in the statements of those who are drawing attention to the injustices. One example is your pointing out of the fact that my statements have been too long. The problem is that it does actually take alot of words to unravel a can of worms. Corruption thrives on that fact, because it knows that there will always be plenty of people just like yourself who will gladly buy the cover story. As for the wrong venue, that of course is a classic. It is the height of folly to make a complaint to the very body that you are complaining about long after that body has been exposed as being biased. I know all about the original Brews ohare ARBCOM case because I was there myself and I saw what happened. And I can tell you one thing straight. Whatever ARBCOM does, it doesn't arbitrate. People might believe that it arbitrates because that's what its name suggests that its function is. But it doesn't arbitrate. Now let's get back to the point here. Brews ohare has just been blocked for 48 hours for no reason whatsoever. It's done and dusted. Nice piece of bullying ARBCOM! David Tombe (talk) 03:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

That's begging the question. You and a few others see it as an "injustice" but you appear to be in a minority, and your repeated assertions of this perceived injustice and consequent demands for sanctions resultant form it to be undone because you consider it to be an injustice, are counter-productive. What you need to do, as I have said before in several places, is go to the arbitration committee with a calm, cogent, well-documented request for amendment to the outcome, which is not founded on allegations of bad faith, insanity and cabals, but is instead an explanation of how this could be a mistake based on misinterpretation of good faith actions. If your only case is that those whose evidence led to the sanction are evil, and your criteria for judging evil are that they supported the case against Brews, then you are wasting our time and yours and are probably going to end up with an STFU restriction of your own. Is this really so very hard to understand? Guy (Help!) 10:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Guy, You are dabbling in something that you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about. Did you read my evidence at the original arbitration hearing? If not, come back to us again when you have read it. David Tombe (talk) 10:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Read what, this? Yes, I believe it is safe to say that it had been read, and rejected. It appears that Trusilver is, thankfully, about to be desysopped for his out-of-process unblock. What exactly are you still arguing about? Tarc (talk) 18:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

David, it seems to me that the only people you will accept as "understanding" this are those who agree with you. Yes I read your evidence, so did the arbitrators and as Tarc says they rejected it. But that's not relevant here. What is relevant is that you are continually refighting the arbitration case and doing it in the wrong places. Stop it, please, it's not going to help anyone. Guy (Help!) 12:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Tarc, I'm not the one who is still arguing. I made my concluding remark yesterday which was "nice piece of bullying ARBCOM!". David Tombe (talk) 03:06, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Facepalm — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rodney Watson

Kmweber (talk · contribs) has made a !vote in the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rodney Watson AFD, regarding an article that he wrote; he is currently listed on Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions as not being allowed to edit the Misplaced Pages: namespace. I don't know what the exact rules are in editing restrictions — is this alone enough to breach his editing restriction? Never mind that he did falsely accuse me of having some sort of vendetta against him, and never mind that he did push his "speedy keep, it clearly exists, nothing else matters" mantra on us again. And never mind that he clearly thinks that his restriction is a joke (just look at his userpage). Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 01:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• ETA: It says "Any continued edits to the said areas will result in an immediate indef block." Hmm. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 02:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

So should that go in a seperate ANI post or do you want to just change the title of this one? Nefariousski (talk) 02:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Be sure to notify him on his Talk page. Woogee (talk) 02:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Notify him about a discussion in a namespace he can't edit, just so… oh never mind. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 02:17, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

LessHeard vanU has blocked Kmweber indefinitely for the violation of editing restrictions. -- Atama頭 02:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, was in the process of blocking myself as well. Whether he felt it was valid or not is irrelevant - ANI is the most high-traffic page for that sort of thing, and if anyone wanted to speak against the ban, they could have, and in fact at least one someone did. Hersfold 02:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

As ever, I invite review - if deemed appropriate - and do not need to be consulted should another admin decide to lift or vary the sanction. To be clear, I enacted the provisions of the community restrictions and have no opinion on them (unless I commented - in which case my opinion is irrelevant). LessHeard vanU (talk) 02:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Come on. Give the guy a break. Don't wiki-lawyer. The article was created by him and he is the major editor. So when there is an AFD, he is an expert in saying why he thought the article qualifies. So stop the drama, use IAR if you have to, and unblock the guy. After all, you want to encourage him to write articles so stop hounding him. Ipromise (talk) 04:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This does seem awfully draconian. Commenting on an AfD for an article where he's been a major contributor hardly seems like trolling around for trouble. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed clarification of community block

Proposal: Current editing restrictions are lifted. In its place is a restriction to not allow Kmweber discussion in RFA, noticeboards, and ArbCom until December 31, 2010 and restrictions after that to be based on article edits between March 6, 2010 and December 31, 2010. Ipromise (talk) 04:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• We've given him way too many chances. Why does he keep slipping through? It's clear that he's not here to play by any of our rules, only to wikilawyer everything to death and force his "everything should have an article, sources are optional" mantra, which is not only wrong but destructive to the wiki. His comments in the AFD suggest that he doesn't believe in the policies that nearly everyone else believes in, and in fact wishes only to refute them — and he's been doing this for at least three years, if not longer. His contributions to article space are minimal; almost always two-sentence stubs with a stub template, no categories and no references. (I asked him about this once, and he said basically that he "can't be arsed" to learn the category tree; his comment in the AFD says that he honestly believes that ONLY contentious info should be sourced if at all.) Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 04:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec)TenPound Hammer is the AFD nominator so there is a conflict of interest. He nominated the article for deletion then tried to get the article creator blocked for commenting on the AFD. If TenPound Hammer believes the current editing restrictions stays in place, that is a valid opinion which he is encouraged to express above. But to seek Kmweber's block because of an AFD that TenPound Hammer nominated and that Kmweber created is a very mean thing to do. Ipromise (talk) 04:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

You're making false accusations. I filed the AFD because I thought the article failed notability. In no way was I doing this just to "bait" Kmweber into getting indeffed. He seemed to be keeping with the promise not to edit WP: space (even though he still calls it out a joke), so I honestly didn't think he would even touch the AFD — after all, I also AFDed one of his other articles the same day and he never touched that AFD. You're awfully accusatory, Ipromise, you know that? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 04:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Where is the false accusation? Unomi (talk) 06:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Per Tenpoundhammer. And per Kmweber, keep the indef too. It might have been reasonable to seek an exemption from a community restriction in order to participate in a discussion, but he didn't go that route. Instead he declared in big red letters that the restriction didn't exist and tested its boundaries. His lightweight mainspace history really doesn't merit additional chances. Let him wait on the sidelines and participate in other WMF sites. In half a year I'd consider a return if he pledges to refrain from past problems and hasn't socked. Durova 04:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support unblock, and seek clarification. And generally support the notion that he is able to defend articles that he is a major contributor to. Unomi (talk) 06:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Keep blocked per Durova. There are reasonable means of asking for permission to violate ones restrictions. "Hey ArbCom, can I have a temporary pass for the sole purpose of discussing this one AFD, since I am a primary editor on the article" would have been the way to go. The attitude displayed by Kmweber over this shows that he is unwilling to work within the bounds of his restrictions, nor is he willing to calmly and reasonably seek amelioration. There's a big difference in approaches, and as with lots of his past actions, Kmweber shows here an utter disdain for the community and for expected behavioral norms. --Jayron32 06:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• The expected behavioural norms are in no way those exhibited by tenpoundhammer. Seriously. Tenpoundhammer could have been slightly more diplomatic than, by his own words, nominate 2 articles which tph attributes to kmw for deletion. He could have gone to KMW first and ask for rationales for keeping it. TPH may actually have done so on the talk page of the article prior to nominating it, I don't know, because this has been brought up *after* the article was deleted, a week *after* kmwebers initial post to the afd. TPH should be ashamed of himself, and those supporting this should consider the circumstances carefully. Unomi (talk) 06:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• KMweber controls his behaviour. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to comment on those AfDs. He's been here long enough that he knew he could have sought a different route. If he actually felt so compelled to comment on those AfDs regardless of his restrictions than its probably further evidence he shouldn't be here.--Crossmr (talk) 12:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
• To Unomi: Its not that he commented on AFDs about his articles, its how he went about it in light of his restrictions. Per Durova's link, his attitude was not "I am under restrictions, how may I work around them so I can still comment at the AFDs" it was "Fuck my restrictions, I will do whatever I want when I want." The former approach would have led to no block at all; indeed it may have led to a loosening of restrictions when he showed he was able to work with others. The latter approach merits a block. --Jayron32 00:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• Huh? — I missed the discussion that led to the unblock with restriction, and here we are are: It Didn't Work Out. Support the indef. Put a cherry on top. Jack Merridew 07:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• You don't see a problem with TPH nominating at least 1, 2, 3 of KMWs pages and articles for deletion on the same day, without having the courtesy decency to approach kmw for a venue of response? Right, It Didn't Work Out. However you may feel about the guy, you must admit that this is pretty low. Unomi (talk) 07:27, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Hmm. I don't know what to say. Not that I need to. The Block Log speaks for itself JBsupreme (talk) 07:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Err, what does that mean exactly? Should we indef everyone that has a block log? How about this guy? Unomi (talk) 07:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Keep blocked per Jayron32.  Sandstein  07:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Right, lets block him 1 week after he initially commented on an afd of an article he was the main contributor to. Ignoring that TPH offered up 2 of kmws user pages for deletion on the same day, even though he arguably should have known that nothing had changed since the last time he nominated them for deletion. You must know this can't be right. Unomi (talk) 07:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Since the "no Misplaced Pages space" restriction was placed, notwithstanding that he disputes it, KMWeber has not edited in the Misplaced Pages namespace until this incident. The main reason for the restriction was, IIRC, to stop drama-mongering, I don't think a !vote on an AfD on an article to which you have significant contributions is a violation of the spirit of that, and AfDs have a timetable which means that a request to vary the restriction might well take you outside the timeframe. We should consider what can be done to allow people to participate in AfDs where they have prior interest when they are under some kind of restriction; I can see why you'd want to keep it to a single comment block with not more than a couple of hundred words. But ignoring restrictions is not the way to challenge them. Perhaps we can let Kurt off the hook this time, but with a clear message that this was not the right way of going about things. LHvU is not given to capricious blocks, I think this was in good faith and defensible, but I think we could probably take a collective deep breath and step back this time. I note that Luna Santin has unblocked him, it would be better if Luna had let LHvU do it based on this discussion. Guy (Help!) 11:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Kmweber was already given a final warning in December, here. It was for the same reason than this block: Kurt participated in a wikipedia-space page. And he gave the same reason: that he could do it because it directly concerned him. If Kurt is unblocked, he shouldn't be allowed any exception from his wikipedia-space ban.

And, yes, a one week block would have been enough. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

support an indef. I'd seriously question the admin who unblocked without clear consensus to do so on the ultra super duper last chance.--Crossmr (talk) 12:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose any restrictions on Kurt from participating in AfDs and support his being unblocked. It is absurd that any article creator could not be permitted to defend the article he or she created. I also think this rather overthetop edit should be undone. Since when is commenting in an AfD, "illegal"?! We have all seen lame non-arguments in AfDs (pretty much any time someone says to delete something as "cruft") that should be discouraged, but even then, they are not "illegal". What law did Kurt break by commenting there? Even if Kurt was under any editing restrictions, he should at least be able to defend an article he created. He made two edits in the discussion, did not spam it, did not start tossing around swear words. What is so problematic there that it breaks a law or is even that big of a deal in Wikipedic rule terms? We should not toss around terms like "illegal" unless if it concerns something like actual libel or intentional copyright violations. Sincerely, --A Nobody 16:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Unblocked

I have unblocked Kmweber at this time. As far as I can see, this is the first infraction of any kind on his topic ban, and multiple users above have expressed opinions that he should be entitled to comment in XfD discussions where he was a major contributor to the page under discussion. A warning might have sufficed, or a short block -- which he's already served -- but indef is a frankly ridiculous response here that I will not abide. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

My Hero/Heroine :) Unomi (talk) 11:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what in this guy brings the most severe response from the system. I am disappointed by the response, especially from users whom I respect. I know he has a past and a mile-long block log but I am simply not comfortable with this latest round of his blocking cycle. He has edited sparsely since February and today when he edits to defend his article he gets indefed. I realise that he did this against his topic ban and that the article he was defending was borderline notable. But his was a human response. Please give this guy a comfort zone, on humanitarian grounds, to do something that most people take for granted: defend their own creations. Repeatedly nominating his articles for deletion is traumatic enough for him and at minimum would justifiably make him feel targeted. Getting multiple users, all at the same time trying to ban him after he reflexively ran to the AfD to defend his article simply does not pass any appearance of fairness test. Actions have to be fair and appear to be fair, in an analogous way to the virtues of Caesar's wife. Dr.K.  11:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Can't see where you had the consensus to unblock. There certainly didn't seem to be it above.--Crossmr (talk) 12:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Consensus is not about editors being in agreement, it is regarding whether decisions are in-line with policy and with the 5 pillars(though generally one hopes they are one and the same), quite frankly the behavior and reactions seem to fall far short of both the spirit and the letter of WP:CIVIL, which remains a core principle. Unomi (talk) 14:06, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, KMWeber is in full control of his actions and if he isn't, he shouldn't be editing wikipedia. No one forced him to respond to that AfD. if he can't help but edit wikispace and knowingly invite drama then he doesn't belong here. If you have evidence of intent to bait, then provide it. Especially since after having his comment struck he came back a week later and did it again. That shows complete intent to disrupt.--Crossmr (talk) 14:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This is not really a discussion I find to be necessary or fruitful at the moment. Please reflect on this; are you holding kmweber to a different standard than tenpoundhammer? Unomi (talk) 14:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Why because you can't argue against it? You brought it up. And yes, since he is under an editing restriction, he is held to a different standard. It is quite simple. He knowingly and without evidence of physical coercion violated his editing restrictions in an area that he had to know was going to cause drama. Can you say the same about tenpoundhammer?--Crossmr (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I find it a tad unfortunate that you didn't choose to redact your comment above or back it up with diffs on the back of kmwebers response to your comment. Editing restrictions are meant to ensure that an editor does not cause drama, it is not meant to take away a right to response(that would be against WP:CIVIL). Perhaps we should move this whole discussion to 'neutral ground'? WP:EQ refers to Ethic of reciprocity for good reason. Second of all, the standard that I was referring to was regarding presumption of intent or reasonable ability to foresee consequences. Do you believe that tph was was unable to foresee that drama and / or duress would be caused by nominating at least 3 pages attributed to kmw for deletion? Or do you believe that he was unable to control himself? Clearly tph welcomed the outcome, why else would he declare lhvu his hero? Clearly tph brought it to AN/I in order to facilitate such an outcome, as an experienced editor he would know that there was no urgency here, kmw responded to the afd 1 week ago. Consider that 20 mins after creating the issue here, having had no response, he adds: ETA: It says "Any continued edits to the said areas will result in an immediate indef block." Hmm.. Yet still stated I didn't explicitly ask for him to be blocked; I asked if he should be blocked.. Consider further that the 2 user pages he nommed for afd were previously closed as keep, and were stated by all involved to be within policy, why would he have imagined that this had changed?. WP:CIVIL clearly states: It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user.. Unomi (talk) 16:05, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

His response is immaterial, whether his comment was struck out first or not, both were made while he was under editing restrictions. The time line of the striking out doesn't supersede the timeline of his being restricted. I find it a tad unfortunate you continue to try to dance around the issue when it is clearly obvious that he was under an editing restriction and chose the route to generate the most drama. Sorry, can you point to the part of CIVIL that says its okay to violate your editing restrictions to respond to an AfD of an article you once edited? I'll wait while you look it up. Editing wikipedia isn't a right, so there is no "right of response". tph was not under editing restrictions. If you'd like to propose some for him, feel free. I'll even give you a little toque so it'll last longer. If you'd like to read up on something you should do some reading on Personal Resonpsibility. kmweber seems to utterly lack it and you're enabling him. He controlled his actions. No one forced him. If you can't deny that or provide evidence to the contrary, then we really have nothing further to discuss here. I asked you if you had evidence that tph was intentionally baiting kmweber to provide it. I haven't seen any. If you think tph did something untoward start a separate discussion and provide evidence. But unless you can demonstrate how someone forced him to make those edits, he's got nothing.--Crossmr (talk) 16:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

If you truly have a burning desire to discuss this then feel free to ping me on irc, but at this point I see no reason for us to waste yet more foundation resources on ANI threads. Unomi (talk) 17:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

"indef is a frankly ridiculous response..." Why? Is it too long, or too short? LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe she meant not definite enough? Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I will check the restriction, then, to see whether it should have been the short or long indefinite... LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Can I hear just one good reason why we should keep bringing Kmweber back? One good reason? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 14:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• There is none. Plain and simple: he violated his editing restriction. No ifs, ands, or buts. It is not complicated. Just like some other editors whom I won't mention, he is apparently entitled to an infinite number of "second chances". — Huntster (t @ c) 15:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Unomi has suggested on IRC that this discussion be moved to a talk space or otherwise non-WP: space so that Kmweber can reply. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 16:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree. Those end up being missed. Moving to subpages never accomplished anything than to try and prevent a discussion from actually going somewhere.--Crossmr (talk) 16:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• The block rational seems thin and heavily bureaucratic. It's continuing proof that when it comes to getting blocked, it's not what you do but who your friends are (and as important, who your enemies are). I'm not fan of Kurt but I've rarely seen an editor hounded as much as he has been. I'd be as argumentative if I was faced with the venom he has put up with. The whole thing is a little high school clique-like. Sorry if I soiund harsh. RxS (talk) 16:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
• Trouts all around. One for TPH, one for Kurt, one for the blocking admin, and one for the unblocking admin. Really? Was this necessary? I mean, come on, Kurt was harmless and not causing trouble up until this point. Couldn't we just leave him alone? The Wordsmith 17:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
• I largely agree with The Wordsmith above. Kurt made two edits arguing to keep an article he created. Heaven forbid! Sincerely, --A Nobody 16:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• He was restricted from editing anything in wikipedia space. He did, and look where we are. This is the exact reason he was restricted from doing so.--Crossmr (talk) 00:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• Well, maybe. I don't think the content of his arguments caused the drama (which has been the problem in the past), and I don't think we properly thought through how people should comment on content issues in such cases. If the ban is designed to include AfDs on articles where Kurt has significant content edits then we should say so explicitly I think. Piling in to other AfDs and noticeboard threads is obviously not going to fly but I can see why this particular case would be perceived as it was by Kurt. The main thing is that it does not seem to be part of a pattern of pushing the limits, and actually it does not seem to have had any effect on the outcome of the debate either. Guy (Help!) 09:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• He was told all wikipedia space, he doesn't need someone else to come along and say, "and yes, we mean AfDs, and yes we mean projects, and yes we mean AN/I and yes we mean RFAs, and yes we mean...etc.etc." In the absence of any exceptions it means ALL wikipedia space.--Crossmr (talk) 13:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• I don't see any reason why he would or should be restricted from AfDs. Looking at discussions in which we both participated, his edits strike me as expressing valid viewpoints: (1 edit to the discussion; explains why he thinks it should be kept) compared with say the far more antagonistic from the same discussion by a different editor who says to "Build a bonfire and burn this crap." Or (a single edit to the discussion, no attacks on other editors, not just a vote) and even if there is a concern that Kurt is somehow "too inclusionist," well, by that standard we would disallow delete votes in the same discussion from accounts that think they have a closed-minded "mission" to delete, would never argue to keep (that account never has, not once, as far as I can tell), and come here for sexual pleaseure... Now even something like here, he did not link to WP:Speedy keep or something, so his reply seems fair. Moreover, even if we disagree with his stance that existing is sufficient for inclusion, so what? It is just a stance. No one is forced to reply to him. A closing admin should be able to weigh the opinion accordingly. As for his more recent edits, this question is fair and reasonable and politely worded while being academically challenging. Many editors share that frustration with the repeated subjective use of "notability" in discussions. We have a whole category of editors with userboxes opposing notability and proposals that come up from time time saying to scrap this subjective/elitist term. I do not know the history between TPH and Kurt, so I have no comment on his accusation in his initial comment. Going back to his last AfD prior, we have this. Personally, I don't like copy and paste comments and the initial keep is similar to other keeps from this user, but the subsequent question might be valid and even with regards to the copy and paste, again, I see rapid fire "Delete per nom" and "Delete as cruft" style votes (sometimes three or even four in under a minute!) by several accounts over and over that don't really contribute anything to the discussion or reflect any interest in looking for sources let alone reading the article, but if those aren't banned, then I don't see why the opposite would be either. If anything, we should encourage Kurt, like all users, to not only participate in AfDs, but to go beyond the discussion to source searching and incorporating. Best, --A Nobody 18:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Specific question

What do we think should be done in the case of users restricted from editing in project space (something which is not as unusual as it once was) in the specific case of AfD discussions on articles to which they have significant past contributions? I would say this should be an exception to general project-space bans, provided that involvement on the AfDs does not become disruptive. Line by line rebuttals after every !vote is obviously going to be perceived as a problem but a single !vote with rationale would seem to me to be a reasonable thing to allow in the specific case where the user has significant prior contributions to the article under discussion. I don't want to open the door to Wikilawyering here but I do think we need to be fair to people. The point of topical bans is, as I see it, to allow people to continue to contribute to content but to keep them away from their hot-button topics. I think you could argue this either way and I think we should come to a consensus view of how it should be handled in general. Guy (Help!) 09:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, should we just do it here, village pump or an rfc? Unomi (talk) 10:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Give them an inch, they'll take a mile. You start making exceptions and they argue for me. Suddenly it was in the "spirit" of the rule and not the "letter". No. If they're restricted from editing wikipedia space, they're restricted from editing wikipedia space. If they have some vitally crucial to the debate (in the terms of sources), then it can be edited into the article as necessary and the discussion can carry on from there. I can't say that there is every a reason where a specific person "needs" to participate in an AfD debate. AfD debates usually come up on things like sources and they don't need to edit the debate to provide those sources.--Crossmr (talk) 13:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Exceptions need to be noted, so that uninvolved admins requested to act upon an alleged violation know precisely the remit. A working model that an exception to WP namespace pages bans/restrictions would be AfD's/DRV's, GA/FA discussions relating to articles previously edited would be fine, but it would need to be spelt out within the topic ban wording. That way, there is no confusion as to the extent of the ban when the wording is reviewed (and people under total exclusion type bans would not need that reinforced within the wording). LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree and have voiced this opinion previously, but unfortunately, the "specifying the exceptions" part has often been forgotten during sanction proposal discussions (rather than always deliberately left out). I tend to avoid letting that problem exist when I make a proposal precisely so that enforcement is practical, and does not become as much of a headache as the alleged violation(s) that might later occur. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Editors should be able to at least defend articles they created in AfDs, barring they were banned for something like real world harassment, i.e. in which they are permanently blocked anyway. Any unblocked account, under other restrictions or not, should be able to defend articles they created under the normal participation conditions, i.e. if he is not swearing and tossing out severe personal attacks, then okay, but in this case, he made a mere two edits to the discussion which do not strike me as the least bit disruptive. I understand some editors did not like his RfA comments and apparently admin board ones as well. Upon reviewing his Afd contributions, I see nothing overly wrong with them. Even if some accounts don't like when he says "Keep, it exists," so what? We see lame non-arguments ("Delete, it's cruft") all the time in AfDs. We should probably not make a bigger deal out of them then they merit as any reasonable closing admin will hopefully ignore the weak arguments anyway. So, yes, like all of us, no one should be making personal attacks and such, but if he wants to make a mere two edits defending an article he created and therefore might know something about, just let him and if anyone thinks his arguments are weak, ignore them rather than start admin threads that only exacerbate tensions and distract us from improving content. Take care everyone and best wishes! Sincerely, --A Nobody 15:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

No. Per WP:OWN, having created an article doesn't give an editor any special privileges relating to that article. Bobby Tables (talk) 18:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree with A Nobody on this point. While no one owns any article, a major contributor, particularly when that editor is also the creator, is particularly likely to have useful information and views worth considering. That is why CSD and AFD taggers are strongly encouraged to notify the original creator, and all the scripted tools for that do so automatically AFAIK. The alleged disruptions by kmweber involved "mass-!voting". If limited to discussions of articles of which he was the creator or q major contributor, he could hardly "mass" comment, and the process would be more transparent. In the absence of a modification of the restriction, I would, in principle, be willing to post on his behalf any comments in any such AfD discussion, whether I agree with them or not. DES 20:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

A major contributor can't argue anything that anyone else can't. There is nothing any individual person can do in an AfD that no one else can do. Most AfDs comes down to a lack of sources and they don't need to edit an AfD to provide those. Kurt's language on his talk page had a tinge of WP:OWN to it and that isn't remotely a good reason to ignore your sanctions.--Crossmr (talk) 21:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Of course a major contributor can argue something that someone else can't, especially for marginal articles a major contributor may be the only editor who is familiar with the material or had cause to believe that the existence of the article had merit in the first place. Kurts arguments or behavior on his talk page is immaterial to a general discussion of how these things might be better handled in the future. At the very least a person in such a case should be granted a proxy or other means of informing the discussion. Unomi (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

What? AfD discussions are supposed to be decided on policy. So what is it that they can argue that is going to make a difference. Their opinion that it should be kept shouldn't really influence the outcome unless they've provided evidence to support it that wasn't already in the article. Evidence they could add to the article without editing the AfD. There is nothing preventing them from improving the article or addressing concerns on the article and then posting on the nominators or someone else's page who is involved in the AfD and asking them to reconsider the improved article. If there are questions over a borderline source they would be just as free to defend it on the article's talk page (which is where a borderline source should be discussed first). Otherwise, in what scenario do you envision that someone would be incapable of addressing a deletion reason without being able to access the AfD, which no one else on wikipedia could do?--Crossmr (talk) 02:08, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I frequently find myself arguing with accounts in AfDs who have no real knowledge or the topic under discussion and nor are they even interested in looking for sources. Rather, they just decide that they don't like the topic and so vote rather than argue to delete. By contrast, an article creator might actually be familiar with the subject and willing to look for and add sources in order to rescue it, including sources that might not be fully accessible on a standard Google Search. Google Books, for example, only gives snippet views of some books and some editors might not even have access to something like J-Stor. Many subjects are actually discussed in reliable secondary source journal and magazine articles as well as even full length books that are not always accessible online or in the case of something like Google News, one needs a paid subscription to access. I would much rather hear from someone who has a greater likelihood to have these sources or an interest in acquiring them and utilizing them than ignoring such a crucial opinion. We are here to build a compendium of knowledge and what matters more is the opinion and efforts of those who have, look for, and incorporate the sources than merely accounts that just toss out abbreviated links to ever changing guideline and policy pages. And let's be frank, we know many accounts show up in an Afd to never acknowledge or return even if the article has been drastically improved since nomination. We need those improving it to indicate as much in the actual discussion so that key development is not glossed over. I cannot help but ascertain that simply allowing Kurt to have made his two posts and either replied or ignored them in the discussion would have been far more favorable and far more constructive use of everyone's time than making an issue out of something easily ignored at worst. Best, --A Nobody 04:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

If an administrator is closing an article based on votes and not reading the policies and arguments made and checking the article itself than that is matter for deletion review or administrator review. It isn't a reason to allow disruptive users to start trying to make exceptions on their restrictions on the off chance they might have a close of an AfD on their article done by an admin who isn't doing his job properly. If someone has been restricted from editing wikipedia space because of their constant disruption, I don't find their opinion to be all that crucial to begin with. But you're not describing anything that shouldn't first be discussed on the article talk page. If sources are questioned, they should be discussed on the article talk page before being taken to AfD. If there is a question about the sources the party is more than welcome to give much fuller details about the source on the talk page, which is where it should go so future editors can find it if they also question it. We are here to build a compendium of knowledge yes and we're doing it as a community. What matters most is that the people who participate in that process can do so without being disruptive. That is first and foremost. he had choices and chose the most disruptive path before him. Something he was restricted from doing. As durova pointed out he could have contacted someone, as I've pointed out he could have addressed sources on the talk page and asked the nominator to look at that again. If admins are closing debates properly there is zero reason for any restricted user to edit them. They can address whatever concerns there are at the article level. If there is a problem in the process, creating further issues by creating exceptions for some users who are otherwise restricted doesn't solve that problem. It then gets into a battle over what is a "major" contributor. Someone says 50%, someone else says 30%, someone else says just 10%, do we count characters? Visible words on the page? If someone simply makes an edit to a page is he then allowed to go edit the AfD. Would we then see restricted editors simply making a single edit to a page so they can go get involved in the AfD? no. As I said above. Give them inch, they'll take a mile.--Crossmr (talk) 08:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

AfDs come down to polices applied to the specific facts of an article. A creator or major editor can, in many cases, assist in establishing those facts. Such an editor may know better where to find sources than most other editors commenting -- not always, but often enough to take note of. Such an editor may have relevant information on which sources in a particular field are reliable and why. Such an editor may have relevant information about the context of the article that most editors do not. Granted, this info could be presented via a proxy. Granted also, a different editor might have any or all of this information, and might happen to see the AfD and comment. But that might NOT happen either. Yes an editor might be disruptive. In such a case that editor might be blocked (note that in the instant case kmweber was not disruptive, although he was also not persuasive). It is said above that no one editor can do anythign at an afd that anyone else can't. And in a formal sense this is true. But it is common at an AfD for one editor to do something that no one else in fact does. For one editor to present sources or arguments or information that persuade others and turn the result of the discussion. That is why it is a discussion, and that is who it is supposed to work. And it is not by any means inevitable that had one editor not offered those sources or arguments someone else would have. AfDs are limited in time and space. Most AfDs have only a few editors commenting, who are not always really representative of the community as a whole. This is a problem with the AfD system. Restrictions of major contributors to an article will be all to likely to worsen the situation. The possible benefits -- avoidance of some possible disruption -- do not IMO match the possible costs -- possibly valid arguments or views not being considered. DES 13:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Logic Historian

Logic Historian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been busy canvassing about something zie was going to raise at WP:AN.

I was one of those canvassed , so replied on my talk to say "stop canvassing" .

I then looked at Logic Historian's contribs list, saw there was lots of it, and posted a "stop canvassing" msg to User_talk:Logic Historian.

The canvassing continued after the warning, so I placed a 3-hour preventive block on the account.

The subsequent posts to User talk:Logic Historian suggest that there is some issue of a ban and/or socking involved here, but I don't know the history. Can someone else take a look? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:29, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, they admit to being a whole whack of Peter Damiens...I'm extending the block to indef, and will being looking further into this. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Fine, no objection to the block-extension, and you obviously know more of the history than me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Only slightly :-) Note that one of the accounts that he claims to be was blocked by Jimbo himself. Based on editing intersects, they could very well be the same person (single-minded focus on the History of Logic) - however, if a CU could verify that it's the same IP ... that would be the finishing nail, methinks... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Its worth mentioning that Peter Damien was a very strong editor, and highly valued in article space. Misplaced Pages eats its young. Ceoil 11:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:DUCK is enough for this identification. This is clearly Peter Damian, who also expressed a desire shortly ago to bring one article to FA.

I remember that ScienceApologist wrote an article on another website while he was blocked, and then the article was ported here. Maybe Peter could do the same thing? --Enric Naval (talk) 11:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

as always, I oppose proxying content for blocked users. If they want to edit wikipedia, they can behave.--Crossmr (talk) 12:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Whatever else Peter has done his content contributions, so far as I'm competent to judge, have generally been of very high value, and ought to be preserved. Paul August ☎ 12:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

There is more than a just a little irony at play here - Peter canvasses, outs himself, all for the sake of writing and bringing to FA the History of Logic which clearly is illogical....or is it? I think we should let Peter do his work - perhaps on a limited type track, - only work on articles, no talking and no pestering...Modernist (talk) 14:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I would support that. Paul August ☎ 14:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

(Reply to Crossmr above) Here's a thought experiment for you. Suppose Peter offered to donate a thousand dollars to Misplaced Pages, would you accept it? If so why not accept his valuable content contributions? Paul August ☎ 15:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The system is automated, he can donate or not. Its completely irrelevant. He has found him in the position of being blocked because of his behaviour. That means at this point in time his contributions are not welcome. If at some point in the future that changes, he's free to contribute.--Crossmr (talk) 15:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

By what logic are his dollar contributions acceptable but not his content contributions? Paul August ☎ 16:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I suggested in the last AN thread that Peter could be unblocked, but limited to only article and article talk pages outside his own userspace. I still think this could work - it's strict, but I doubt anything else would work. Ryan Postlethwaite 15:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

If banned or blocked editors are still willing to contribute featured content, we should be able to find a way to allow that to happen. However. We have several precedents in other editors, and the behavioral disruption in some cases outweighs the content benefit by causing a drain on the time other productive editors could be spending in article work, as well as a drain on FAC morale. If the arbs and admins can find a way to make it happen, good luck, but take care not to set precedents that will bite us in the butt with other cases. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I support Ryan Postlethwaite's proposal. Peter Damian just doesn't seem to be able to stay away from Misplaced Pages, and his article contributions seem to be valuable. The disruption he causes is outside articlespace, e.g. the Established Editors fiasco. Let him edit on one account in his userspace and in articles and their talk pages. Fences&Windows 15:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I support Ryan's proposal. And I'd volunteer to monitor Peter's edits and revert or block where appropriate. Paul August ☎ 16:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I do not know the history that led to Damien's block, but in terms of other cases, where the precedent concerns me, "unblocked, but limited to only article and article talk pages outside his own userspace ... " may be too broad. I do know Damien contributed some rather underinformed commentary as a sock on the Catholic Church FACs, and prefer restrictions be placed on previously disruptive editors in terms of exactly which articles and talk pages they may edit, so disruption doesn't spread (thinking more of other cases). Also, if the door is opened on similar cases, I hope FAC delegates will be notified, and someone will monitor for disruption at FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Adding. I do not know the extent or nature of Damien's disruption, other than the frequent socks and underinformed commentary at Catholic Church. I do know that FAC morale was seriously deteriorated, and many FA reviewers and writers put off by other disruptive editors. I don't want to see that spread, just as rebuilding FAC morale is (hopefully) underway; we shouldn't allow one editor's content contributions to sideline other productive FA writers and reviewers. If the arbs can find a way to account for that, I'm on board. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, he'd be banned from FAC discussions so hopefully that should eradicate your concern. Peter would solely be allowed to edit article page, article talk pages and user talk pages. Perhaps 6-12 months down the line that could be reduced slightly, but there would have to be a consensus to do that. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

How could he participate in a FAC if ... banned from FAC discussions? That implies someone would have to proxy for him, or all FAC discussion would have to move to article talk. Why not allow him to participate only in that FAC, with the stipulation that the FAC will be archived at any sign of disruption? Or something like that ... again, I don't know the nature of the behaviors that led to his block. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

He doesn't need to participate in any FAC, in order to contribute content. Paul August ☎ 16:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

But he stated he wants to bring History of logic to featured status, so that bridge would eventually have to be crossed. Anyway, you all know the history here better than I do; my real concern is that we take care with precedents regarding other editors. I'll leave it to those who know the case better to resolve, but if the article heads to FAC, I hope someone will let me know what the conclusion was. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Just because he wants to bring an article to FAC doesn't mean he needs to be allowed to. The key thing here is capturing the very valuable content that Peter is willing to contribute. Whether or not an article gets a gold star is wholly secondary. Paul August ☎ 16:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

There's an approach that was tried first with ScienceApologist and afterward with Piotrus during their sitebans: assemble a team of three editors in good standing, and seek prior approval for them to proxy a specific article improvement drive (including DYK and GA pages). Misplaced Pages gained good content on both occasions and ScienceApologist has been uncontroversial since his ban expired. In theory that type of approach might be viable with Peter Damien, if Peter is willing to abide by the terms of the restriction and focus on content. It's one potential solution worth considering if Peter is amenable and if three capable editors are willing to assist him. Durova 23:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Request to me involving sockpuppets

• User:Logic Historian put this message in my user talk page:-

The users listed seem to be sockpuppets of the same user. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• See discussion starting in User talk:Fram#I've reinstated the contents edits by HistorianofLogic that you reverted. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
• See three sections up. Stifle (talk) 15:33, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I combined the two sections, since they were about the same thing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Do I need to remind you that this is the same person that wanted to introduce subtle vandalism as part of a plan to destroy Misplaced Pages, and then started carrying out step 1 of his plan? (Diff here). Oppose any motion to allow his contributions, even in article space. The Wordsmith 22:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Ummm, that's not a "Diff" but a "link". A diff would show that he actually introduced some kind of vandalism - you know, two versions of Wiki article DIFFerent from each other, as opposed to a comment on an external forum. What the LINK shows is just some random "what if" musings, complete with a statement that he would be "uncomfortable" with vandalizing Misplaced Pages to make a point. This smacks a bit of thought-police and character slander.radek (talk) 04:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that he has abandoned that plan. He was lately planning to use a sock to bring an article to FA status, and then reveal the sockiness just when the article was entering FAC. This way he could see the fights between those wanting to remove all his edits because he's banned, and those wanted to keep high-quality content. This looks like the same plan but with a tweak. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I think using a proxy is fine, no harm really if the FAC article is good enough. Its would be a pity to become myopic and put process before content. Which are we here for. Ceoil 01:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• Good content or not, if we have to have other editors watch and confirm edits(because how can someone whose stated goals seem to be to fuck with this community be trusted to not put hoax material into their article?, it will be gone over with a fine tooth comb), why the hell do we want him around at all? This whole fiasco seems like an extention of his earlier plan to destroy Misplaced Pages. And he's just admitted to using 4 socks, and it seems to be confirmed. If someone one were to propose a permanent community ban, I'd be all on board. When you know your holding a poisonious snake, you dont put it in your pocket for safe keeping. Heironymous Rowe (talk)

I would treat case on its own merit. My impression of Damien is that he is proud of his article work and the integrity and quality of what he delivers. I dont see haox as likely. The wanting to destory wiki thing was about RFA as far as I remember, and something I found funny at the time. The reaction to it was totally OTT. Ceoil 13:13, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

"of his earlier plan to destroy Misplaced Pages" - do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? What is he, Dr. Claw or something? I actually chuckled when I read that but now I just think it's sad that a perfectly reasonable request which would potentially benefit the encyclopedia is being rejected on the basis of some comments made on an external forum which, according to Peter himself were "tongue in cheek".radek (talk) 04:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I strongly support Ryan's proposal above. If he wants to take an article to FAC, he could co-nominate and respond—if necessary—using email via the co-nominator. He would be free to respond to reviewers' comments in the text of the nominated article itself. I must say, I'm mighty impressed with his "History of logic" article. We need this kind of writing. Tony (talk) 05:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Me too. It's an important article, even one worth taking a few risks over. --Malleus Fatuorum 05:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to see him back editing, so I support Ryan's proposal; hopefully it could be reviewed after a few months so he could take part in discussions too. SlimVirgin 06:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• Wrong venue. This is not a community ban so the community can't really overturn it. Any appeal needs to go to the arbitration committee's ban appeals subcommittee. I suspect that the chances of success will be limited given the history of sockpuppetry, ban evasion and breaching experiments, but let Durova do what she does and see how it pans out. Guy (Help!) 09:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I could be wrong on this, since there's much history here, but looking at the block log, , it does look in fact like a community ban.radek (talk) 01:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm. At least one of those accounts did have a banner saying banned at the behest of Jimbo and/or the Arbitration Committee. Regardless, the history of breaching experiments does not show good faith to me. Guy (Help!) 09:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Guy. All I'm really saying is there's a model that's had some success. If three of the people who want to see Peter Damien do an FA drive are willing to proxy and take responsibility for it, then let's settle a plan. ArbCom has approved that sort of thing before. Who wants to step forward? Durova 16:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Editor using hacked AWB code

User:Lorson modified the open source code of AWB to make hundreds of edits. I am not sure there was a consensus for these edits. I contacted the editor in their talk page in User talk:Lorson and after a short reply in which never denied to hack the code, they kept mass edits despite of the reaction of a number of editors. -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Editor is operating an unapproved bot making more than 10 epm. -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe he has finished this "run", so a block now wouldn't really be preventing anything. Have to find whether these edits were valid, and if not, rollback.  f o x  (formerly garden) 16:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

User:Reach Out to the Truth did 200 rollbacks in the last hour. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Lorson (talk · contribs) does not appear at Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage#Approved_users. Whether he's using AWB in a bot or directly, if he doesn't have permission, he has to stop now. -- Flyguy649 16:05, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Not quite sure what the issue is, the only problem is that User:JasonAQuest and User:Reach Out to the Truth abused their rollback privilege. And I got some rather hostile message from User:Mephistophelian on my talk page that I ignored. I was only using AWB to make my edits faster.--Lorson (talk) 16:06, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

But if you don't have permission to use AWB, then you may not use it. -- Flyguy649 16:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

AWB needs permission, which Lorson doesn't have. The editor hacked the code to run an unapproved bot. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This isn't some sort of accidental-use-without-permission. If someone has gone to the trouble of building a hacked version of AWB, it's clearly an intentional breach of the requirement that AWB editors must be authorised. I suggest that Lorson reverts all the edits done with unauthorised AWB, or faces a block. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Lorson has been tempblocked for running an unapproved bot (which he was essentially doing). An admin may wish to block Reach Out to the Truth and/or JasonAQuest, remove rollback, or do nothing to them at all, their call, I have to leave the computer at this moment in time.  f o x  (formerly garden) 16:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I see that both User:JasonAQuest and User:Reach Out to the Truth have been warned about their use of rollback for this incident and I've pointed them to here. Lorson has a further comment at User talk:Lorson#Block. something lame from CBW 16:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

JasonAQuest did more than 750 rollbacks in an hour. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Given that Lorson failed to obtain agreement or support for his/her mass revisions, I fail to see why two users should lose privileges for rolling back articles to a state which had been agreed upon by the majority of editors whom it concerned . There was also concern that Lorson's edits were the result of a conflict of interest and hypocrisy, i.e. removing links to Mobygames while adding contentless spam links to GameFAQs. Mephistophelian (talk) 16:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I saw someone engaging in massive deletions of links that had withstood years of scrutiny. It seemed like vandalism, was at the least disruptive, and would be more difficult to fix if left for later, so I acted with the tools I'd been given (which included rollback) to address it right away. "Don't fix it yourself" didn't occur to me, and I apologize. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 16:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The removal of MobyGames links was previously discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games#Moby Games ext. links removal. There was no consensus for removal of the links, but he continued doing so anyway. Back in October he had added GameFAQs links to numerous articles, and I find it odd that now he wants to remove MobyGames links from articles. As far as I can tell he hasn't removed links to any other sites, just MobyGames. Reach Out to the Truth 16:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why users should be warned for rolling back edits of an unapproved bot. I'd sooner thank them, no? Rollback is intended to make stuff like this easier. Cleaning up after an unapproved bot fits the bill in my mind. Equazcion 17:02, 6 Mar 2010 (UTC)

These issues can't be sorted out with rollbacking that gives no explanation why it's done. This is independent of who is right. Recall that in edit wars both sides claim to be right. Reporting the incident helps in solving it. We had one day and half of edits and reverts. I am still not sure what the actions from now on should be. What dies the Video games project say? -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:06, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

We are not discussing for a few edits and some reverts. We are discussing for a day of edits, reverts, then 3 days pause and again edits and reverts. -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

This thread would indicate the person running the unapproved bot is wrong, and would seem to serve as all the explanation necessary. If we'd have waited, other edits might have been done to the articles, and then each one would've had to be sorted out individually -- which probably never would've actually gotten done. It would be good to be able to specify an edit summary for rollbacks, but when someone runs an unapproved bot I think that qualifies as a case where we can use a quick clean-up method. It's not an edit war if you're just cleaning up after something like the above violation. Equazcion 17:13, 6 Mar 2010 (UTC)

Rollbacking was been doing before my report here and stopped after it as long with Lorson's mass edits. For one hour Lorson's edit were done simultaneously with rollbacks. -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Even if he began rolling back before this report, the fixing still seemed to be justified in the end. He probably should've made a report, but in that event, beginning to clean up before he gained consensus on the appropriate action would be fine, as long as he was right about their being in violation, which he seems to have been. Again if he would've waited then an eventual mass-revert might've become impossible, so I have to be glad he did what he did. Equazcion 17:24, 6 Mar 2010 (UTC)

The VG wikiproject endorses the use of links to mobygames, when they are beneficial to the article (primarily for game credits, which they usually carry extensive lists for, such that we would never include (eg). Also extensive and cross-platform screenshots.). See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Video games/Sources#Situational sources for details. The few times I have seen this previously discussed, it was agreed that mass-deletion of any links that were added in 2005 was counterproductive. A checking effort was undertaken, though it didn't get through all uses of the template. The project's editors are (or should be) aware that checked-links-that-are-deemed-insufficiently-useful may be removed.

Also, Lorson appears to be a SPA, having nothing but pro-gamefaqs.com and anti-mobygames.com edits in their contribs. (gamefaqs is listed in the same VG/sources subsection, but has tighter restrictions on appropriate usage). I don't know how that gets 'dealt' with, but it sounds like the editor otherwise intends on returning to doing the same thing at a slower pace once their block expires, so it probably should be. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

His behaviour has been farcical. First, he joins to spam GameFaqs. Get's called out, and throws a fit over MobyGames because it's so unfair. He then downloads the AWB source code, alters it, with the sole intention of bypassing the clearly stated authorisation procedure, in order to run bot-edits to remove four year old links against consensus. How is that remotely acceptable? The hacking of AWB is bad faith. This is a single purpose account, whose purpose is detrimental to the quality of the encyclopedia. He still has thousands of edits which are live - they should not stand. - hahnchen 20:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• I've gone ahead and reverted the edits as unapproved botting. Next time please do bring situations like this to an admin, WP:ANI or WP:BON. Admins are uniquely positioned to quickly undo any unapproved bot edits with &bot=1, rollback summary, and mass rollback. –xeno 04:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Stop it with the 'hacked' references

AWB is distributed under the GPL, the right to view and modify the source to fit your needs is enshrined in the license deliberately chosen by the programmer. Running an unapproved bot for a task without consensus is a Bad Thing(tm) but everyones running around like he committed some horrible, awful deed in respect to AWB. He didn't. That's how open source works. --M 01:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

If you're familiar with open-source software, you should know that "hack" is a judgment-neutral verb. It means he took a tool and modified it to suit his purposes.... which in this case were to evade WP's requirement that it be used only by people who had demonstrated themselves trustworthy. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 03:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it should be established that "hacking" is not necessarily a bad-faith action. For the record, I run a "hacked" version of Huggle, which is configured to use global and project config pages in my userspace, and has a couple bug fixes. This simply allows me much more freedom in how I can configure it. And it also manages to speed up the program so that it isn't so slow, thereby allowing me to spot and remove vandalism at a much faster pace... Is it bad faith? I would certainly hope not... The Thing // Talk // Contribs 07:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

Moved to WP:AE. --JN466 19:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – Content dispute. Please continue civil discussion/negotiation on Talk:Michael Peter Woroniecki or pursue avenues of dispute resolution. –MuZemike 20:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – Per WP:SPA for the purpose of vandalism only, Matandben (talk · contribs) has been BLOCKED indefinitely. Awesome~!

Resolved – silence... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 12:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – No administrator action needed. –xeno 18:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

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