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Catalonia definition must me corrected

We must differentiate between geographic and politics definition. Catalonia is a geographical area comprising actual Catalan Community in Spain and Cerdanya which actually is the french department of Pyrinèes Oriental. If there is any reference to Catalonia as a nation, it must cover all Catalonia and not merely the Catalan Community of Spain. Both populations consider theirselves Catalans sharing the same Catalan language, (even it is not considered an official language in France because political assumptions) whith respect for each political nationality, french or spanish.

The definition must be considered as follows:

Catalonia Community covers an area of 32,114 km² and has an official population of 7,210,508. It borders Cerdanya in France and Andorra to the north, Aragon to the west, the Valencian Community to the south, and the Mediterranean Sea to the east (580 km coastline). Official languages are Catalan, Spanish and Aranese.

I understand that the separatist ideas of some french and spanish nationalism against the European Union cultural heritage must be erradicated if we want the wikipedia project to progress.

I'm sorry but I must disagree with you. There is another concept for the whole catalan-speaking territories and it is Catalan Countries.

Catalonia's definition is being discussed in the section above (for a long time).--Civit cardona (talk) 14:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I struggle to believe that Perpignan in France should only be counted as "Catalan speaking". They fly the Catalan flag, it's historically and cultural strongly Catalan, and the Rugby League team (which should also be mentioned and linked in the article) is called Catalan Dragons. In Catalan the area is called Northern Catalonia.

I'm sure this is a controversial issue whatever is included in the article, but ignoring Northern Catalonia in the article completely strikes me as a whitewash and not a neutral POV. Davini994 (talk) 10:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

This article is hijacked by some editors near to spanish unionist positions. I do agree with you that not speaking about the Catalan nation and what and where is North Catalonia is simply a failure of reflecting the Catalan reality. If the article is only speaking about the autonomous community then it should be called 'Autonomous Community of Catalonia'95.61.18.160 (talk) 19:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The map

Carles, noticing your last edit, I just want to point you that each and every other article about CCAA has the vectorial map (just take a look yourself). If we want to keep some equality and sense around wikipedia, the correct thing is to leave the other one. there is no real reasons for this article to be the exemption. My thoughts only. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 22:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Maurice, I beg to disagree. At least the maps for the Valencian Community and the Balearic Islands have also been changed today (see and ) to this kind of Spain-centered map. So the situation is not like you seem to describe: the map in Catalonia article being a unique strange singularity to be corrected with respect to a long well-established tradition in all the remaining communities. No. The fact is that just now some people propose this new solution. We can discuss it, of course. My initial point is that I prefer the maps those communities have had for a long time because they are more globally-minded and show their position not only inside Spain, but also in a European context. --Carles Noguera (talk) 23:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, like so many other times, it is not a point of what we do prefer, but to continue the path followed by the majority of the other articles. Let's not forget that this article is part of an encyclopedia, and as such, all related articles must follow the same guidelines. If you take a look at all the articles about CCAA. Like it or not, the vectorial map seems to be the prefered by all the editors involved in the majority of all those articles. If you take a look at the portuguese districts(Braga (district), Bragança (district), Faro (district), Lisboa (district)...), the french regions (Alsace, Champagne-Ardenne, ], Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Pays de la Loire, Rhône-Alpes...) or the italian italian regions (Abruzzo, Calabria, Lazio, Marche, Sardinia, Tuscany...), you will notice that they all do share the same maps and that are always "country-centered" (if I may say so). Having different types of maps depending on the region selected is in my opinion undesirable.

That said, I believe that the correct thing is to implement the map used by the majority of the articles CCAA-related. In addition, let's not forget that this is this the english wikipedia, and as such, it is like the "international version" of it. If some user from Indonesia wants to learn about a CCAA (let's say Catalonia in this particular case) you can bet for sure he might be much more interested to understand where it is placed in relation to the rest of the country than in relation to Europe.

I think that those are the 2 most important reasons to keep the vectorial map. If someday, Europe really becomes something close enough to a united country, then your position of an europen-minded map should be the one to follow... But only if that is the position for all the articles in wikipedia related to europen regions... Cheers. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 17:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation, Maurice, and sorry for my late reply (I am back from holidays just now). I agree with you that homogeneity is good in general, but I'm still not sure whether it constitutes a sufficient reason for the change you propose. I haven't seen any wiki policy enforcing this uniformity, although I agree with you that it is desirable. But, actually, there would be a way to make both of us happy, i.e. to preserve both good properties at once (global-minded maps and homogeneity): uploading maps like those we had during the last years for the Catalan-speaking communities also for the remaining Spanish autonomous communities, right? This is my proposal. --Carles Noguera (talk) 08:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought you were on vacations... Hope you enjoyed them! I don't mind your proposal but, do you know how to create maps? Because I don't. If nobody uploads those maps for the rest of the CCAA, we get back to start. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 09:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I've enjoyed them a lot, thanks! :) Good to see that you are open to a proposal that would solve both of our concern at once. As regards to the maps, this seems to completely feasible. I am checking that those files already exist: , , , , , , etc. (you see the pattern). So homogeneity is not really a problem. --Carles Noguera (talk) 10:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi there Carles. Long time no see.

I wanted to make you reconsider your position about keeping the european centered maps. For almost one year(?), you have been defending those maps against (quite a lot now) changes by multiple editors to the one used in the rest of CCAA related articles. We already discussed this matter long time ago (uniformity in wikipedia articles, the country being more important than the continent...).

You know I don't agree with your position, but for the sake of both of us I left your option. But now, you should admit that your opinion is probably a minority.

Tell me what you think. Cheers. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 10:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Maurice! Nice to meet you here again. Hope you're doing fine.

I don't completely agree with your analysis of the situation. First, those maps are not my invention. They were already in stable versions of the entries when I joined the project, more than two years ago. Second, after a quick check on the history of the entry on Catalonia, I've counted only four users changing the map to the Spanish-centered one since we discussed the issue. And none of them, unlike you, has bothered to write a single line on the talk page to state their points for the change. On the other hand, there has been one user who has proposed a Catalan-centered map which, coherently with my globally-minded approach, I don't like and I don't support. Therefore, I don't think that "lonely Carles fighting against a majority of users who argue for a Spain-centered map" is a faithful account of the situation, because they are few, they hardly argue, and there have even been proposals in a different direction. In this discussion, we made our positions quite clear. Let me remind my points:

• The main thing here is to offer an accurate map (faithful to both geographical and political reality) and as informative as possible to help readers from all over the world to locate these regions.
• In particular, the maps should clearly show the administrative borders of the autonomous communities, their position inside Spain (for they belong to this sovereign state, and nowadays sovereign states are the key element in geopolitical divisions), and their position in a wider context to give the maximum information to non-European readers. All of this can be achieved with the pictures I've been defending.
• Homogeneity with entries about other regions is certainly a good value to pursue and, as I already showed, it does not contradict any point above, because we already have in Commons maps of this kind (showing both Spanish and European context) for all the remaining Spanish regions.

--Carles Noguera (talk) 11:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Carles, all the autonomies of Spain have the same map. I understand that you are independentist but this it is not motive for including a map where you cannot see the whole country. I am sorry, but it isn't logical to include a map different to the rest. Diplomatiko (talk) 14:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Diplomatiko. Many thanks for joining the discussion. I would like to kindly ask you a couple of things. First, it would help the discussion a lot, if you would read carefully what has been said so far. In particular, you'll find a specific proposal dealing with the uniformity problem you are concerned with. Second, I would appreciate it very much if you would abstain from making assumptions on other users personal views. It doesn't really help the discussion (after all, personal opinions of the editors do not matter much when we are trying to produce a neutral text), and sometimes (this is the case now) you can be misled to wrong conclusions: I am not an independentist (not even a nationalist), as it can be easily seen in the userboxes in my webpage. Anyway, we can forget about this, because talk pages are not meant to discuss about any user, but about the article in question and to decide how to collectively improve it. --Carles Noguera (talk) 14:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I see you are taking your time to think about it. Fair enough. In the meantime, I shall restore the previous consensual map. --Carles Noguera (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm restoring the regular map (the one which all the other articles use). There's no reason to use another map: NUTS maps don't offer an enough clear sight of a country subdivision location. Furthermore, this (and sometimes the Valencian Community one, for obvious reasons...) is the only country subdivision article in the entire Misplaced Pages where they're used. Icallbs (talk) 21:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Icallbs. Thanks for your comments. But, have you bothered to read the discussion above where I showed that your concerns on homogeneity in Spanish regions entries are compatible with my concerns for globality for non-Spanish readers? Please take a look at it. On the other hand, let me remind that prior to changing a disputed content, you should reach consensus, not the other way around as you have done know (see ). Cheers, --Carles Noguera (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you misunderstood "NUTS". These are the Spanish NUTS regions, in which the map you use is based.

I've read that discussion, and I must say those maps aren't suitable at all in this kind of articles. They just aren't, just have a look at France's subdivisions articles, or Italy's, or Portugal's, or Poland's. Sadly, I think those "concerns" aren't really "for globality". Exaxtly because non-Spanish users are the ones who will be reading this, they'll the ones the maps should be adressed to. I encourage you to read the consesus-building article you pointed before for the further seeking of a common point. Other users like MauritiusXIII can help us improving these aspects too. In the meantime, probably the regular map is the better option because of the homogeneity. Also, I'd like you to consider Dr01drpny's option, it's the same map as the rest of Spain's regions and it has the globality element.

Icallbs (talk) 18:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I combined both maps to try to fulfill both concerns regarding homogeneity and wider region location inside Europe. You can add it to the article if you agree with it: File:Localització de Catalunya.png. Cheers. --Dr01drpny (talk) 23:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi there. Thank you very much, Dr01drpny, for your input. That moves towards the good direction to resolve the dispute, indeed. As for Icallbs, first let me say I'm sorry for having misunderstood the "NUTS" thing; I didn't know that concept. Thank you for pointing it out. However, you might want to apologize as well for assuming bad faith in me when you write "I think those concerns aren't really for globality". I am proud to claim that all my contributions to Misplaced Pages (both in articles and in talk pages) are openly honest and faithful to my points of view; it would certainly be stupid to act otherwise when I am editing under my real name. So, this frank globality concern is starting to be addressed by Dr01drpny in his proposal, and I have tentatively tried how it looks in the article. I would like to ask him, since he looks very deft in map creation, to propose some other solutions which could make the European map bigger (now it is too hard to see). An easy solution is to increase the box on the right-bottom corner (there is some space on the sea and Africa that could be covered without problems). A better one would be to create something analogous to the maps used in Scotland, Wales or England, where the European map is the main one while the whole state (the UK in this case) is also shown in the box, which seems to be something of the highest importance to some users. After seeing (some of) these possibilities we could decide which is the nicest and most suitable for these articles. Needless to say, to satisfy the urge for homogeneity in Spanish autonomous communities articles, the new kind of map will have to be produced for each of them. Looking forward to hearing from all of you, --Carles Noguera (talk) 21:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi there. I agree with the idea of having a wider (Europe / World) localization map, especially for people from other countries. Still, there are some users who want homogeneity with the maps of all the other regions of Spain. Creating a new version of all these maps is a notable effort, and it would require a deeper consensus (currently the map is being changed almost every day). Maybe something to talk about in the WikiProject Spain. In the meanwhile I uploaded an updated version of the file with a bigger Europe map as Cnoguera asked. You can see the preview | here. --Dr01drpny (talk) 23:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi, thanks again for you valuable help. That one is better indeed, but I still think that something like the UK maps would be even better (both having a clear depiction of the whole state administrative structure, as required by Maurice and Icallbs, and nice big global maps for a globally-minded English encyclopedia as seen e.g. in the UK entries). I suggest to explore that possibility before taking any decision. I understand the non-trivial effort the whole thing requires (and I truly thank you for your excellent technical help), but there certainly are strong concerns about homogeneity by several users, as you can see in the discussion above. As far as I am concerned, as a member of the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Catalan-speaking_Countries, at least I'll work to have a uniform solution for the three articles under its scope. Sadly enough, while we are fruitfully discussing the issue here, some users like this anonymous IP keep trying to impose their point of view without bothering to contribute to the consensus building. I've already warned him about it. --Carles Noguera (talk) 21:38, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

However, if it is too difficult to produce these alternative maps, I suggest to go for the easiest solution and stick to the good old NUTS maps. Moreover there seems to be agreement on that elsewhere.--Carles Noguera (talk) 15:27, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

That example doesn't suits our particular case... The country-centered map in that example just sucks! Portugal and France don't even appear. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 19:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yes. You're right, now I see it. I assumed, reasonably, that this discussion in Talk:Basque Country (autonomous community) was analogous to ours because there actually was an identical edit war proposing the same kind of map. But now I see that the discussion is strangely ignoring that one and proposing an ugly Spain-centered map where the country looks like an island... --Carles Noguera (talk) 19:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Like an island? Have you seen the German, French, Italian, Portuguese, or basically any other country subdivision article other than the British ones to use world maps for locating a region? It's stupid! Furthermore, the current map shows Portugal, the French border and even North Africa, which is much more than many (probably more than any other but the UK's constituent COUNTRIES articles). In the discussion you pointed at, there were only two votes... That's not a "long-standing consensus" nor it shows a reasonable solution. I'm sorry if I've been a bit rough in this comment, but these attempts to vandalize Misplaced Pages (specially the English one, cause it's the one millions of people from all countries, even non-English, read), trying to mislead them make me really upset. Icallbs (talk) 20:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Icallbs, now you look upset indeed. Now you start referring to the proposals you don't like as "stupid" and to their defense as "attempts to vandalize Misplaced Pages" and "trying to mislead"... You know? it's a bad sign when one needs to use derogative terms to undermine the opponent's position in the discussion. But if you count to ten, take a deep breath, sit back and then read carefully the stuff above again, you'll realize what's written isn't that stupid after all. First, you'll see that the Spain-centered map where the country looks like an island I was referring to is, in fact, this one, and the island metaphor was already used in that discussion. Second, you'll see I only attracted your attention to the Basque Country thing becauses it does resemble the discussion we currently having here, so it might be relevant. Third, you'll see I never described as a "long-standing consensus" what they have there, but I only said that "there SEEMS to be an agreement" there (and it really looks like that, when nobody has expressed any opinion against the NUTS map in that discussion thread; interestingly not even yourself after you added the map you want).

The discussion here is certainly far from being over. We are still waiting for new options from Dr01drpny or any other user able to produce them. So I wasn't restoring the NUTS maps (and BTW those are the really long-standing ones as a matter of fact in the Valencian Community, Balearic Islands and Catalonia entries) because of an alleged achievement of a new consensus. I was doing it because otherwise, when the map you like is there, some people seem to completely forget about the discussion and disappear for days. Interestingly enough, they suddenly come back when I restore the previous solution (sometimes yourself, sometimes some mysterious IPs which give little to none explanation for their edits). And, symmetrically, I could as well object that your putting back there the state-centered map is not fair before a decision is reached. But I won't, because my intention is already fulfilled by having people interested again in the discussion, which is the main issue here. Let us proceed then. --Carles Noguera (talk) 09:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

• Please, don't mess this discussion here with the rest of the Autonomous Communities'. IF and only IF there is a general Misplaced Pages guideline regarding this issue, you can discuss other articles. Otherwise, keep it as a per article discussion and don't change other articles in which you are NOT involved, as the BAC one. We had our own discussion there and reached our own consensus. BTW, I don't get the "goodness" of that island-like map. It's geographical projection is not adequate for representing Spain, nor it does represent accurate detailed maps for each AC, as the green ones do. And again, these maps were replaced recently by anonymous users, probably to match them with the maps used in the Spanish Wiki, that may be are not the most accurate ones, you know. David (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

It is that "IF" precisely which I've been looking for weeks! Can't find anything... but I'm sure there is a guideline for these cases. If we find a guideline, we got the solution... I've tried quite a few wikiprojects but nothing... Any ideas, anyone? --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 19:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

As an outside observer who has occasionally reverted the wilder changes here ... I get confused exactly which map is which now, but FWIW I think the map should be clear in showing both where Catalonia is within Spain, and also where it is in the context of the wider European area. I'm not sure this version - the current one as I write - does that. It's too close-up, in the main part. I personally prefer the one here, which I think was put together more recently. If you look for example at ones in respect of the UK, eg for Wales or Scotland, they're even more "global" in perspective. In addition, there should ultimately be consistency across all the Spanish region/nation articles. N-HH talk/edits 14:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

this version is clearly the most desirable one. It has what all of us find important on a map. But we do lack of all the other maps for the rest of the Autonomous Communities. If someone knows how to add the small european map on the rest of them (and willing to), the problem is solved. I already tried to some days ago, but to manipulate svg's is beyond my comprehension... ;) --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 07:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Catalan vs. Catalonian

Most of the article uses the word "Catalan" as an English demonym adjective in almost all cases. The article even states in the infobox itself that the English demonym is "Catalan". However, the section on popular culture uses the demonym "Catalonian". Which is correct, if any? Either the references to "Catalonian" need to be changed to "Catalan" or, alternatively, "Catalonian" should be recognised as a possible demonym. Madeinsane (talk) 18:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

You're right. 'Catalonian' is incorrect, or at least not as correct as 'Catalan'. I've removed the former from the article. That said, the entire section on popular culture needs clearing up. It is very badly written and might also be split to a new page. Any thoughts? --Tomclarke (talk) 15:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Goth-Alania > Catalonia_Catalonia-2009-12-25T14:12:00.000Z">

"...the name of the Spanish province Catalonia, which is but a slight deformation of Goth-Alania, "province of the Goths and Alans"..." (from Alans, Encyclopaedia Iranica) http://www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/unicode/v1f8/v1f8a013.html Böri (talk) 14:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)_Catalonia"> _Catalonia">

--This is not true at all, just a fantasy theory, the name Catalonia probably comes from Gothalunda/Gothland > Catalunya or from Castelans(people who lives in castles)> Castelunya > Catalunya --79.159.194.238 (talk) 17:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)_Catalonia"> _Catalonia">

What is a nation, anyway?

If you seek the answer to this question in ordinary English dictionaries, you’ll find entries like this:

a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory (Oxford New American Dictionary)

or

... 1 a body of people associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own (Webster’s Encyclopedic Dictionary)

or

... 2 a community of persons not constituting a state but bound by common descent, language, history, etc. (Collins English Dictionary)

So are Misplaced Pages editors entitled to describe Catalonia as a nation? On the basis of the foregoing, clearly they are. And what about the Spanish Constitutional Court? Well, neither they nor any other institution or legislature have any business to dictate English usage. Many editors (particularly some who are not native English speakers) have failed to take account of this fact. When the term “nation” is used in the context of Catalonia’s legal status, we need to make it quite clear in what sense it’s being used.

Let me hasten to add that the foregoing mustn’t be taken to imply that I’m supporting a Catalanist position here: that would be to fall into exactly the sort of confusion between linguistic usage and legal definition that I'm criticizing.

AdeMiami (talk) 15:51, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Recent edit warring

Look, this back and forth edit warring isn't really helping anything. You guys need to discuss it here. As an outsider with no stake in this, could I clarify a few points and ask people to follow them up below? There seem to be three main issues here -

Nation/region/nationality etc in the lead, post court case

Per the above section, I don't think anyone can argue against the idea Catalonia is a "nation" in the broadest sense of the word - in the same way that is is also a "region", and "area" or whatever, as well as more formally an "Autonomous Community". The Spanish Constitutional Court ruling would also seem - according to the Telegraph piece being cited - to have now more formally confirmed/accepted the use of the term "nation" in the latest Statute of Autonomy. However, it seems that they are saying that precisely because it is simply a vague cultural term that does not have a "legal value" or constitutional implications - ie it's accurate, but not that significant. The issue at stake is what to highlight and prioritise in the lead, and I'm not sure that simply sourcing to the Telegraph piece helps. That article also describes Catalonia as a "region", and it's not clear on what basis one term is being preferred here over any other. It seems to me that using more formally defined terminology, where the terms wiki-link to pages about terms as they are used in a Spanish context - ie as in this version - would be better.

I don't think this formula would work, because the list of Spain's "constituent historical nationalities" has never been laid out and, in any event, it would open a can of worms. One million pounds for those who try (and succeed on) it: would Navarre be part of the Basque nation? Is there a constituent nationality called Castile? If that's so, would Andalusia be part of it (it was part of Castile's Crown, after all..)? Etc, etc.

Nor can we accept, as some editor has pretended, that all of Spain's autonomous regions are nationalities. Madrid is an autonomous region, but neither a nation nor a nationality. The same goes for, let's say, Extremadura, Cantabria or Murcia. I'm sorry for being so blunt on the matter, but some of Spain's autonomous regions are nations whereas others are just that: regions. And we all know who's who on this.

The points are:

(a) Catalonia's Autonomy Charter describes it as a nation (whether this is legally binding is of no importance: this is Misplaced Pages, not a constitutionalists' forum). This term ('nation') was sanctioned by (a) Catalonia's Parliament, (b) Spain's Parliament and (c) Catalonia's people in a referendum.

(b) Spain's Constitutional Court has sanctioned its use (again: whether this is legally binding is of no importance: this is Misplaced Pages, not a constitutionalists' forum).

(c) Countless English-language sources (and this is English Misplaced Pages, by the way) describe Catalonia as a nation. Those sources (for instance, The Daily Telegraph) can't be accused of any sort of nationalist leaning. Quite the contrary, as the Irish experience shows to us.

Andreas Balart (talk) 08:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Order of languages

Is there a formal, agreed view in the real world of which of Catalan and Spanish is the "main" language, eg by virtue of official recognition as such within Catalonia and/or Spain as a whole, or are there official figures that reveal one language is more commonly spoken as a first language in Catalonia than the other? If so, the order should just follow that. If not, or there's no clear answer on those criteria, how about going by alphabetical order, ie Catalan first (although it would be slightly odd to apply this across all languages and put Aranese right at the top)?

Parliament

It seems kind of obvious to me that the Parliament field in the infobox should refer to the Catalan parliament and link to that page, not to the national Spanish parliament. See Scotland for example.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, if they help. There's plenty else that needs improving with the rest of the article, and genuine vandalism seems to slip by unnoticed while all this gets edit warred over. --N-HH talk/edits 15:23, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Dear N-HH,

If anything this point demostrates the sort of people who've hijacked and taken over this article over the last months and years, masquerading their byass as consensus: they were actually so byassed that they deleted any reference to Catalonia's Parliament on Catalonia's infobox. It beggars belief.

We can put it down to a whole set of prejudices. Otherwise, it is rather difficult to understand this behaviour.

For too many months, I've been watching over it. But enough is enough.

Andreas Balart (talk) 08:32, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Automate archiving?

Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep ten threads.--Oneiros (talk) 20:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

 Done--Oneiros (talk) 13:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Spain high court rules against "nation" term

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100710/ap_on_re_eu/eu_spain_catalan_charter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.85.14.106 (talk) 02:14, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

No credit shoud be paid to anonymous vandalist comments

Eva Grossjean (talk) 14:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is about speaking from the facts, not only from part of the political POV or from the legal POV (legal but not moral as the decisions of Spanish Constitutional Court are more than discussed). Anyone at Catalonia knows a significant part of the people living there feels that part of Spain as a nation with right of self-governing and any source considered trustable should reflect that. Any editor not trusting this can search about the Catalan display on this 11th July and will see that spanish high court is simply applying a centralist POV. BR anonymous. 95.61.18.160 (talk) 19:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Catalonia is not a nation (at least legally) but a historical nationality.

Spain's Constitutional Court accepts the definition as nation for Catalonia but has no legal value. For legal purposes is still considered a historical nationality and in any case should not be included within the framework of political status. Catalonia is only an autonomous region of Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkarull (talk • contribs) 13:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Spain's constitutional Court is not the only POV ,and obviously is an interested POV. It is internationally accepted that part of the Catalan population feels Catalonia as a nation. It is a case very similar to Quebec so no such debate makes sense. The spanish constituional court is just an interested part in the conflict.95.61.18.160 (talk) 19:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

For an encyclopedia the only valid POV is the legal POV, and in Spain the Constituctional Court's decissions are definitives. If Misplaced Pages doesn't respect that, a lot of other articles must be corrected. Scotland, for example, is only a historical country of United Kingdom or is a nation? I am Spanish but I respect the Catalan nationalism, as it has perfect historical foundations, and I think they are a nation, of course, but include social or personal POV in a section intended to the political situation, whatever it is, for better or for worse, is not encyclopedic. Special:Contributions/Arkarull (talk) 12:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Arkarull, the decission about nation/nationality is not any personal POV but it's sufficently backed up by legal texts. The Constitutional Court has ruled that the term 'nation' stands on Catalonia's autonomy charter's preamble, which, by the way, doubles as an organical law of the Spanish State (ie. passed by both Congress and Senate).

Whether or not this has legal consequences (it has not, according to the Court) is of no importance to Misplaced Pages. The point here is that the law (Spanish as well as Catalan) describes Catalonia as a nation. And all we do here in WP is to describe things.

Now: the Spanish Constitution does also acknowlege that Spain is made up of regions and nationalities. The fact that no list has been made as to which territories qualify as regions and which ones as nationalities doesn't mean that we all know who's who here: Is Catalonia a nationality? For sure. Is La Rioja a nationality? Of course not.

Finally, once we've accepted the 'nationality' terms as experessed in the Spanish Constitution, a purely linguistic point kicks into: 'nationality' implies the existence of a 'nation'. As Misplaced Pages states:

Nationality is membership of a nation or sovereign state. Nationality can be acquired by being born within the jurisdiction of a state, by inheriting it from parents, or by a process of naturalization. ...

en.wikipedia.org/Nationality

Therefore, if we accept the Constitutional existence of nationalities, it automatically derives in the existence of nations.

Eva Grossjean (talk) 11:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, Eva, we both agree in that for us Catalonia is a Nation. But I think thar for legal purposes is not a clear idea:

Artículo 2 de la Constitución Española: La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. (Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution: The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, common and indivisible homeland of all Spanish, and recognizes and guarantees the right to autonomy of nationalities and regions which comprise and solidarity among them.)

Therefore, the Constitution accepts the existence of "nationalities", but aggregated into a single Nation, the Spanish. As a result, the Constitutional Court ruled that the designation as a nation that does the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia (2006) in its preamble has no legal validity. Misplaced Pages's article fornationalitynot worth me because, as one librarian of this encyclopedia said to me once, Misplaced Pages is not Misplaced Pages's reference.

In any case, this debate is sterile because the article has already been corrected by someone, replacing "nation" with "nationality." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkarull (talk • contribs) 17:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Nations are not defined solely by Constitutions, mon cher Arkarull.

If that was the case, the USA could never be considered a nation, since a definition of the United States as a nation is nowhere to be seen in there. And yet, they are a nation--and what a nation, by the way!

Britain, on the other hand, does not even have a written Constitution to back her nationhood. And yet, it is another nation.

As I wrote before in this forum, some people mix 'statehood' with 'nationhood'. Gross mistake: sometimes they might coincide, but some other times they might not.

This legalistic insistence on the Spanish Constitution demonstrates, if anything, a large degree of intellectual laziness.

xxx 81.39.12.15 (talk) 16:21, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely, my condescending friend, but I guess you'll understand that I defends the rights of a country, in this case mine, to be judge by its own rules. So, as you agree that in Spain some territories are called Autonomous Comunities, while in USA they call States as well as relevant laws stipulate, when their functions are almost identical, we can also accept that the political and legal definitions are framed in Spanish constitutional frameworks that set Spanish as the only Nation, not excluding the existence of nationalities. You can consider this stupid, centralist or incoherent, but it is what it is. And it is says by one of the few Spanish, born in Madrid, who consider Catalonia a nation. But I also differentiate between what I think and what is legally OK, that's what fits in this discussion. And I differentiate clearly between state and nation, thanks. Furthermore, I believe that you can defend yours opinions without resorting to insult.

And sorry for my poor English. It's probably my "large degree of intellectual laziness". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkarull (talk • contribs) 18:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

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