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Verb pairs and aorist-like forms

Hello, i am not an english native-speaker but I believe that at the verb-pairs (hear-listen etc) the former DOES NOT indicate an AORIST LIKE FORM. I think the verb "listen" shows more an constant action than "hear". Pls check it, thanks a lot Primus 11:05, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm a native English speaker who lived and studied in Czech Republic for several years, where this is an issue because many Slavic speakers try to use continuous forms in English to express Slavic imperfective aspect. Many English textbooks, particularly the Cambridge English series, assert that verbs describing certain mental states are not processes and therefore cannot be used in present continuous form (e.g. "I'm seeing a bird"). This is an example of prescriptive vs. descriptive linguistics. These forms are uncommon, but are perfectly intelligible and sound fine to native speakers (other than those trained by over-zealous teachers to think otherwise) when used in the appropriate contexts. Mccajor 15:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. English admits, "From what I hear, air is still free." One cannot say, "From what I listen, air is still free." Msml (talk) 10:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Good example, reminds me of my huge difficulties in confusing écouter and entendre in French. I'd mostly use them according to my feelings, but sometimes do not know which one to use. -andy 212.114.254.107 (talk) 12:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It's similar with "see" (aorist aspect) and "look at" (imperfective aspect). — Eru·tuon 23:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Still used?

Is the aorist still used in today's languages, such as in modern Greek? In Sanskrit it has become somewhat old-fashioned and is not in common use except for a few verbs (although it is still taught in grammar lessons), and it has been this way for centuries — there's some work of literature (I don't remember it now, but can find a reference) in which a character talks too pedantically, and this effect is achieved using the aorist. I'm wondering if it similarly fell out of use in other languages as well? Shreevatsa (talk) 00:00, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

We had a Greek editor modify the lead some time ago from "Ancient Greek" to "Greek" on the basis of the aorist still being used, so I guess it is. -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

That is to say, recognizably similar forms are used (there has been some change in spelling and much in pronunciation), but with a distinctly different function; the Demotic aorist does assert past action. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Perfect tense vs Perfect aspect

The Greek (and presumably also Sanskrit) requires a distinction between perfect tense and perfect aspect (which includes the perfect tense and the perfect imperative) much like the distinction between aorist aspect and aorist tense. The article on the perfect may not fully make that distinction: in my view, it needs to be fixed, rather than blurring the distinction here. -- Radagast3 (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I think we need some more precise terms. In the lit outside these fields, people may debate whether the perfect is a "tense" or an "aspect", but they never distinguish between a perfect tense and a perfect aspect. Likewise aorist tense and aorist aspect (though they are generally called 'perfective'): we need to define these concepts, and perhaps paraphrase them to avoid excess jargon.

No, we need to accurately reflect what the grammar books say about a confusing concept which is essential to understanding (1) ancient languages and (2) modern languages which continue to use the concept. Your statement "they never distinguish between a perfect tense and a perfect aspect" is incorrect, because the perfect imperative falls within the perfect aspect, but not within the perfect tense. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not a distinct concept, only a distinct term, which we need to correlate to the general term used for the concept. Grammar books use all sorts of terms; switching willy-nilly between them depending on which sources we use only sows confusion.

That's not a difference between tense and aspect, but in how the two are combined: perfect (which can of course include a perfect imperative) vs. present perfect. Both are a combination of tense and aspect. — kwami (talk)

No, Greek has a clear distinction between tense and aspect which the textbooks maintain. Undestanding the distinction is quite important for students, actually. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't dispute that. But this isn't a distinction between tense and aspect. The "perfect aspect" is a fusion of tense and aspect, at least in the analysis of most linguists, and the "perfect tense" would appear to be a further combination of it with tense. — kwami (talk)

How is the Greek "perfect tense" any different than the past perfect? It seems from the article that the "perfect tense" is just the perfect used in the past tense, and the "perfect aspect" is just the perfect used in the present/non-past tense. Likewise, "aorist tense" appears to be just past perfective, like the preterite of the Romance languages. Neither appear to be a tense-aspect distinction, so those terms would be highly misleading (though of course we may need to ref them). — kwami (talk) 22:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be trying to impose modern English categories on Ancient Greek grammar. Speaking as someone who reads Ancient Greek, it's not quite that simple. In particular, aspect really is different from tense. The distinction is fully explained in the various textbooks cited. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm aware that aspect is quite different from tense. That's why I'm trying to clean this up, where it's confused: The "aorist tense" is an aspect, not just a tense, etc. These are not English terms, as English does not even have these aspects, but rather universal ones. We may use Greek-specific terms when describing Greek, but need to correlate them to universal terms for those not familiar with Greek. It's a real mess to have Greek-specific terms when discussing Greek, French-specific terms when discussing French, etc, when perfectly good general terms are in common use. Either we call it "past perfective" (or even "past aorist" or some such if that's used in the lit) and note that this is called "aorist tense" in Greek, or call it "aorist tense" and note that it's "past perfective" everywhere else. — kwami (talk) 23:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is about languages which have the aorist aspect; it provides correct and solidly sourced information. Most readers will come here specifically for Ancient Greek; with a smaller number of readers interested in Sanskrit and the modern languages having an aorist. I'm not sure the "universal terms" you wish to refer to really exist. I'm certain that failing to explain the distinctions in Greek, Sanskrit, etc. would disappoint the readers. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

We don't seem to be resolving this by discussion. If you can clearly articulate the direction you wish to take the article, I would suggest starting an RfC. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Lots of languages have the aorist aspect, but it's only called "aorist" in the traditions of a few, probably because it got lost through the tradition of Latin. Yes, of course we need to explain the distinctions, but part of that entails explaining where they are the same distinction as occurs in other languages readers may know, but under a different name. Per WP:Common and similar guidelines, we shouldn't use jargon just because it's there, esp. if we don't define it. We should also consider accessibility and usage of the same or similar concepts in other articles. The only reason this article exists at all is the long history of using the term "aorist" in Greek studies; if it weren't for that, we'd simply merge it with perfective aspect. Similarly, the past perfective, which you're calling the "aorist tense" despite the fact that it is not a tense, but a fusion of tense and aspect, is called the "preterite" in Spanish. We even have an article preterite because of that, but make it clear how the term relates to more universal terminology. A good intro to this is Comrie's Aspect, which has become the basis for a common, cross-linguistic terminology of aspect. — kwami (talk) 23:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if that answers your question. I think we should include both Grecocentric and general terminology, and make clear how they correspond. I'd hesitate to use inaccurate terms like "perfect tense" in the main text, but would rather leave them to parenthetical remarks or footnotes. We can be just as precise using more accurate terms. (I'll explain in a minute, in case of another e.c.)

The preterite article doesn't quite describe the way that the aorist tense works in Greek. However, the relationship of this article to perfective aspect and preterite justifies, in my use, a focus here on Greek and Greek-like grammar. I'm not sure why you feel "perfect tense" is inaccurate? -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

"Perfect tense" is inaccurate because it is not a tense, but a combination of tense and aspect.

Yes, the preterit article describes how this works in the Romance languages, which is different that the way it works in Greek, just as the subjunctive mood works differently in Romance and Greek (and indeed even in Spanish and French, but we don't create separate articles on the subjunctive for each language without explaining their inherent similarities).

Back to your previous question, I'd make the following changes to the terms I cited for clarification (I wasn't citing them for references, but for an explanation of how they correlate to terms used outside this one corner of WP):

1. Imperfect tense → Imperfect. This is a common term for past imperfective, but the word "tense" is inaccurate, because it's not a tense but a combination of tense and aspect.
2. Perfect aspect → Perfect. The discussion for move on that article should make clear why the tag "aspect" is best avoided. There's been some debate whether it's a 'tense' or an 'aspect', but the general consensus is that it has aspects of both.
3. Aorist tense used gnomically → gnomic perfective, present perfective, or some combo w 'aorist'. As it is, we're saying it's a past tense used gnomically: is that accurate?
4. Aorist tense → Past aorist or past perfective. Again, 'aorist tense' is inaccurate because it's not a tense, but a combo of tense and aspect. — kwami (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with all those suggestions, and I would like to see sources and the claims you are making about tense and aspect. The use of "imperfect tense" etc. is necessary to make totally clear when the aspect is being discussed and when the tense is being discussed. As to the aorist tense used gnomically, yes it's a "past tense" used gnomically as a present. However, for that reason, "past tense" is a less than accurate term when discussing the Greek aorist and "past aorist" would therefore be an undesirable term (yes, I know the lead uses "past tense", but the context clarifies things there). -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

"The use of "imperfect tense" etc. is necessary to make totally clear when the aspect is being discussed and when the tense is being discussed." --But there is no "imperfect aspect", so there's nothing to disambiguate, is there? If we also have an "imperfect aspect", then that's another idiosyncratic term that we need to clarify.

"'past tense' is a less than accurate term when discussing the Greek aorist and 'past aorist' would therefore be an undesirable term". --I'd say that 'past tense' is a completely inaccurate term to describe the aorist and should never be used. There's no problem with 'past aorist', however, any more than there's any problem with 'future perfective'. — kwami (talk) 00:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I have filed an RfC below. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Please hold off on radical changes until the RfC is resolved; please also note the citation and quote defining the Perfect Tense. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that quote does not clarify that the Perfect Tense is not a tense, and in any case such a confusing use of terminology should be clarified in the main text. — kwami (talk) 00:20, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

That quote establishes that "Perfect Tense" is a standard term in Greek grammar, and explains what it means. I have no idea what you mean by "the Perfect Tense is not a tense." If you disagree with that textbook, you can always take it up with the author. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

There are dozens of idiosyncratic terms used for various combinations of tense and aspect, many of them conflicting with each other. They're fine for footnotes so that readers can follow the references, but are generally too much for a general encyclopedia article. The 'perfect tense' is not a tense because the perfect is not a tense, and the 'perfect tense' is the perfect used in the past tense. At least, that's how the table portrays it. — kwami (talk) 00:36, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

There is not really any such thing as "the past tense" in Ancient Greek. The perfect tense can be described as a past tense to the extent that it usually refers to an event that has already happened. However, it also refers to consequences, which are in the present. In some uses, the Greek perfect tense refers only to such present consequences, and is then more accurately described as a present tense. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

You nicely illustrate why the perfect is not considered a tense.

What are the Greek past tenses? By that I mean, which Greek verb forms are all in the past tense, but do not include non-temporal aspects such as whether they are completed, ongoing, habitual, or currently relevant? — kwami (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

You keep repeating that "the perfect is not considered a tense," in spite of the citation in the article. Please find sources supporting your position.

Comrie, Aspect, has an entire chapter on the perfect, which says in the 1st paragraph,

The perfect is rather different from these aspects, since it tells us nothing directs about the situation in itself, but rather relates some state to a preceding situation. More generally, the perfect indicates the continuing present relevance of a past situation. This difference between the perfect and the other aspects has led many linguists to doubt whether the perfect should be considered as aspect at all. However, given the traditional terminology in which the perfect is listed as an aspect, it seems most convenient to deal with the perfect in a book on aspect, while bearing in mind continually that it is an aspect in a rather different sense from the other aspects treated so far.

Or again, read the discussion at Talk:Perfect. — kwami (talk) 01:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand your question "which Greek verb forms are all in the past tense"? Ancient Greek does not have such a thing as "the past tense." It has a tense structure which is more complex than the simple past/present/future structure of English. -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

That's what I'm asking for. — kwami (talk) 01:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, what are you asking for? And was your reference to Talk:Perfect, which redirects to Talk:Perfection, an obscure joke? -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:30, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Which are the past tense inflections of the Greek verb? Which forms are used to express past tense? — kwami (talk) 01:33, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the new table at Ancient Greek verbs: Tenses will answer your question. — Eru·tuon 02:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

That certainly summarises the tenses, though with some minor errors in description. The imperfect, aorist, perfect, and pluperfect tenses are used in describing past time; the present and sometimes the perfect and aorist tenses are used in describing present time. Morphologically, the imperfect, aorist, and pluperfect tenses carry the past-time augment. -- Radagast3 (talk) 03:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Those would appear to be combinations of tense and aspect, and therefore it is incorrect to call them just "tenses". Aspect isn't tense. — kwami (talk) 01:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

RfC

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A discussion on Aorist has taken place on whether the article should remain essentially as-is, or should be rewritten the replace Greek-related grammatical terms like "aorist" by other terms. Input would be greatly appreciated. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not asking to replace "aorist", since that's what the article is about, but only to clarify how it corresponds to more generic aspectual terms. Aspect is difficult enough for English speakers to grasp without having special jargon for every language article. Where we do need such terms because they are deeply ingrained in the lit, as in the case of 'aorist', we should define them using more universal terms. I also don't think we need to keep phrases such as "perfect tense" and "aorist tense", since they confusingly imply that those things are tense. Since those terms are not so deeply ingrained, I imagine we can get by with relegating them to footnotes; and if it turns out that they are more entrenched than I suspect and need to be kept to the forefront, IMO we should be upfront about them being technically inaccurate, or at best will tend to be read erroneously. — kwami (talk) 00:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for summarising your position. However, since this article is mainly focussed on Greek (and, to a lesser extent, Sanskrit), I think standard terminology from Greek grammar should be used, as in the existing article. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Depending on how universal those terms are in Greek studies, we should at the very least be clear that the 'perfect tense' and 'aorist tense' are not tenses, as those terms are sure to confuse people into thinking that they are.

I can't locate my copy of Aspect at the moment, but here's a relevant comment I was able to glean from it online,

grammars of Modern Greek, under the influence of grammars of the ancient language, often retain the Ancient Greek names of the various tenses/aspects, e.g. Aorist rather than Perfective Past, Imperfect rather than Imperfective Past; ... The fusion of the morphological markers of aspect and other categories in such forms as the Aorist and Imperfect of the Indo-European languages, together with the restriction of this particular aspectual opposition, in most cases, to the past tense, may explain why forms which are differentiated aspectually, such as the Aorist and Imperfect, are traditionally referred to as tenses, rather than aspectual forms of the same tense. p 97

— kwami (talk) 00:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The other reason for the retention of traditional terminology is, of course, its greater accuracy for the topic at hand (although the book you quote seems to be discussing modern, rather than ancient Greek: modern Greek is a language I don't speak, and I can't comment on its tense structure). However, he does touch on the key issue: that there is an aspectual opposition (aorist vs perfect and imperfective aspects) mostly involved in discussing the past (aorist tense vs perfect and imperfect tenses) but also involved in participles and imperatives (where the aspectual opposition is equally important). I was hoping that the table in the article would get that across. -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

• Confused. I'm afraid I don't really understand what the dispute is; a clearer explanation would be helpful. I read the discussion above and I find that certain claims don't match my experience of ancient Greek, where tense is generally described as a combination of time and aspect. The aorist tense (at least in the indicative mood) is generally described as past time, simple aspect; in the subjunctive and optative moods, the aorist tense shows only the simple aspect. Is the problem that "aorist" is used to indicate aspect only in other languages? At any rate, the article seems to switch back and forth between "aorist tense" and "aorist aspect" with no indication that these terms are being used differently, and this makes the article extremely unclear. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The article is discussing both the aorist aspect and the aorist tense (the latter being, as you say, a combination of time and aspect). The aorist imperative and aorist participles display the aorist aspect, but without being temporal. The distinction is important, since students often get them confused. I would certainly value clarifying rewording from any experts in Ancient Greek. -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the aorist was simply perfective aspect in Ancient Greek, and is past perfective in Modern Greek. I may be wrong there, but if I am, part of the problem would be that this article does not adequately define the terms. In any case, using the term "tense" to describe s.t. that is not a tense is extremely misleading and should only be done in case of dire need. I'm not convinced there is any such dire need here. — kwami (talk) 01:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, let me blunt: I believe that, in this particular case, you are indeed wrong. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, if you have reliable references. However, I don't think it helps us to explain a difficult concept in Ancient Greek & Sanskrit grammar by importing other terminology that doesn't quite fit Ancient Greek (and presumably not Sanskrit either). -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:39, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The terms 'perfective' and 'past' are applied to all the world's languages, assuming they same relevant grammatical categories. The reason Greek has distinct terminology is because it has a distinct tradition of scholarship, not because it's grammar is all that different. After all, the Greek terms were applied to Sanskrit because Sanskrit scholars were familiar with Greek, not because they share something that the rest of the world's languages do not. The same connection exists between Greek and Slavic.

As for your belief that I'm wrong, based on what? As for refs, why not just review Aspect? That should tell you all you need to know. — kwami (talk) 02:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little confused here: do you actually read Ancient Greek and/or Sanskrit?

As to references, I was hoping for specific page numbers that made your case. The article currently has copious references supporting what it's saying (and I've added a few more).

As to the Greek perfect, it certainly straddles the boundaries between "past" and "present." Some scholars treat it as a kind of present tense, rather than a kind of past tense, as Hermann Hirt did with Indo-European (and certainly the Greek perfect tense lacks the past-time augment of the aorist, imperfect, and pluperfect tenses). -- Radagast3 (talk) 02:40, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Hm. I'm not sure I'm grasping the dispute yet, but it might be helpful for everyone to take a look at Comrie's Aspect (which I believe has been mentioned a couple of times already), p. 12, note 1: "In Ancient Greek, the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense, although it does have some nonpast uses. In other moods and in nonfinite forms, the Aorist is purely aspectual, not an expression of tense." So Comrie seems willing to treat the ancient Greek aorist as a tense. On the same page, he notes that some linguists use "aoristic" in place of "perfective" as a term for aspect, but he's going to avoid this use because of its limitation to past perfectivity in the traditional grammatical terminology of some languages. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The phrase "In Ancient Greek, the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense, although it does have some nonpast uses" is entirely consistent with the existing article (and perhaps influenced the contributions of another editor). The phrase "In other moods and in nonfinite forms, the Aorist is purely aspectual" indicates a reference to the aorist/aoristic aspect, even though, as you say, he eschews that term. There is thus an ambiguity here: some authors use "aorist" to refer to "aorist tense," some to "aorist aspect," and some to both. I feel the article needs to engage with and explain this ambiguity, for the benefit of readers who have been confused by it elsewhere (the existing wording could probably be improved). -- Radagast3 (talk) 03:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Akhilleus, your link doesn't work. He would appear to be saying the aorist is a past perfective, which R has been reverting. Anyway, if it is just past tense, we should be able to replace it with "past tense". If we can't, then there is s.t. else going on, and we need to explain what that is. The fact that none of us seems sure what the aorist is after reading this article is a pretty bad indictment of the article as it stands.

Radagast, could you illustrate two clauses, one in the "aorist aspect", and the other a parallel in the "aorist tense"?

The problem seems to be that the aorist is traditionally called a tense, even though it is not a tense in the modern sense of the word. I just came across Constantine Campbell, 2007, Verbal aspect, the indicative mood, and narrative: soundings in the Greek of the New Testament. He devotes an entire chapter, 4 "The Aorist Tense-Form", to the aorist. Although he retains the traditional terminology of 'tense', he modifies that to 'tense-form', and he makes it clear that the aorist is perfective aspect, that the idea of a punctiliar use is a misunderstanding, and that it is not actually a tense at all. In §4.4 he cites an author discussing "perfective (aorist) verbs". He similarly quotes Comrie, and throughout equates the Greek aorist with the perfectives of other languages such as Slavic (the prototype for perfectivity). In the paragraph after that quotation, he states that the perfective nature of the aorist is "not controversial"; in the first line of §4.2 "Perfective Aspect" he said, "the aspectual value of the aorist tense-form is not a controversial issue." (In all of this, he is discussing the "aorist indicative", which appears to be the "aorist tense" of this article; nowhere does he mention a 2nd kind of indicative aorist, the "aorist aspect" of this article.) He decribes the other characteristic of the aorist as "remoteness" ($$4.4.2), but states that "remoteness goes hand-in-hand with perfectivity." On p 119 he says that "remoteness provides better grounds for explanation than tense does." He quotes on p 122, "The Koine Greek present and aorist are therefore best analyzed as unmarked for tense" and "the value is not part of the meaning of the aorist indicative". In other words, the aorist is perfective, it is not past tense (nor tense at all), and it has elements of "remoteness", which are common in perfectivity (note the past perfectives in many European languages, including Modern Greek, while there are no non-past perfectives). It seems therefore that we have an indicative perfective with no distinction between present/gnomic and past tense in Koine Greek; since the aorist is also used for other moods, the "aorist tense" is just the aorist/perfective indicative, and the "aorist aspect" is just the abstract perfective divorced from any particular declension. — kwami (talk) 05:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Martin Haspelmath, ed., 2001, Typologie des langues et les universaux linguistiques, 1:779: The Classical Greak Aorist is an example of a perfective aspect that is confined to the past tense only, at least in the Indicative Mood; yet both the Aorist (perfective past) and Imperfect (imperfective past) require a past-tense marker (the so-called augment). It is interesting to note that Modern Greek has generalized the aspectual opposition to other temporal domains and is now aligned with the Slavic patterns.

Thus we appear to have a disagreement as to whether the aorist is simply perfective aspect, or a past perfective. (Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that it's nearly always found in the past tense, as Campbell showed.) In neither case, however, would it be accurate to call it a "tense". That would seem to be nothing more than a relic of archaic Greek terminology. — kwami (talk) 05:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm finding a lot of cross-linguistic discussions of aspect, and in none is any attention paid to the aorist. In some you see "perfective (aorist)", in others "aorist (perfective)", and in some "aorist" is simply left undefined in a section on perfectivity or a perfective-imperfective opposition, but nowhere is it treated as an aspect (or tense, for that matter) in its own right. In Slavic, it may be used for past perfective, which is handy because in some Slavic languages you can double up on aspect, for perfective imperfectives and the like. — kwami (talk) 05:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Where does the article say that the aorist aspect is a "2nd kind of indicative aorist"? The article says that the aorist aspect is an aspect, which is also often also called the perfective aspect (although it has a quite different meaning from the perfective aspect in, for example, English). The table collates the various examples in a way which I think is reasonably clear.

The aorist imperative cannot of course be defined as "past" in any sense at all. I can't help but feel that you are trying to over-simplify some of the grammatical issues of Ancient Greek and related languages. I take it that the answer to my question above is that you are not familiar with Ancient Greek or Sanskrit?

However, if you can find a source supporting your statement that "the aorist is traditionally called a tense, even though it is not a tense in the modern sense of the word", the article should definitely contain it, as an essential clarification, probably following the last sentence of the lead. -- Radagast3 (talk) 06:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I gave a citation above specifically for the aorist not being a tense, and several others for it being an aspect.

If there are not two forms of the aorist, why are we positing both aorist tense and aorist aspect? If there's only one form, we only need one term. Or by 'aorist tense', do you mean aorist in the indicative, with 'aorist aspect' being aorist in the abstract? We either have aorist (perfective) and past aorist (perfective past), or maybe aorist indicative (either simple perfective or perfective past) and aorist imperative, but otherwise if there is no contrast between "he went to the store" in the aorist aspect and "he went to the store" in the aorist "tense", we need to eliminate one of them.

Who said anything about the aorist imperative being in the past? Please read what I wrote above. — kwami (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I've added a ref to the article. Yes, as the article says, what is traditionally called the "aorist tense" is the aorist aspect in the indicative. The "aorist aspect" is essentially the same aspect as the perfective, but the term is widely used in Greek and Sanskrit studies, presumably because of slight differences from the perfective in other languages. The aorist imperative provides an example of the aorist aspect used with a mood other than the indicative. I would be very cautious about describing the aorist indicative as "past perfective", though, because that's not 100% true: the aorist can be used gnomically. -- Radagast3 (talk) 06:53, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The perfective is going to be a little different in every language, just as the present tense or plural nouns are going to be a little different. (Greek plural is not the same as English plural, but we call them both 'plural' regardless, because they're broadly congruous.) I don't see anything odd about the aorist: descriptions read like the prototypical perfective. I imagine that what happened is that the term was lost from the Romance languages because Latin did not have an aorist, but conflated it with the perfect, so a new term was later created from 'perfect'. Personally, I'd rather use aorist for all languages, as 'perfective' and 'perfect' get confused all the time, so it's too bad 'aorist' is restricted to just a few languages.

Yes, the gnomic uses are good evidence that the aorist is not a perfective past, at least in Classical Greek. Somehow an erroneous analysis seems to have crept in and been accepted. I think it is past.pfv by Modern Greek, though, isn't it?

Anyway, although all of these things were called "tenses" in antiquity, that's no longer the case, at least not when people are being precise. If we use the phrases "aorist tense" or "perfect tense", we need to be clear that they are anachronisms. And how widespread are they really? Can't we just say "aorist indicative" vs. "aorist imperative"? — kwami (talk) 10:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The terms "aorist tense" etc. are standard in Greek studies. -- Radagast3 (talk) 11:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm seeing them in quite a few sources, even ones which emphasize that it isn't a tense. — kwami (talk) 11:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I must ask you not to make radical changes to the article which pre-empt the conclusion of the RfC. See Misplaced Pages:Consensus. -- Radagast3 (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Then please stop removing the tags from claims which are factually wrong according to the several sources I provided above. — kwami (talk) 19:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't agree that the ancient Greek aorist is not a tense. As the citations in the article show, the aorist is regularly described as a tense in analyses of ancient Greek grammar. It may well be that this is a traditional terminology that wouldn't be used in more linguistically precise discussions, but this doesn't mean that "aorist tense" is an anachronism—it's used in classrooms every day classical Greek is taught and read. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps 'anachronism' is not the right word, but we do need to be clear that it's not a tense. We have numerous sources to show that, regardless of what it's called, it's either aspectual (pfv) or a combination of aspect and tense (past pfv)--and Radagast argues for the former.

We have a similar problem with Greek phonology, where the 'diphthongs', as in και, are not actually diphthongs in Modern Greek, but simple vowels; the proper term in English is 'digraph'. (In fact, if you pronounce και with a diphthong, some Greeks will go so far as to say it was never pronounced like that, and that it was always a monophthong!)

Also, if the AOR is not PAST.PFV as Radagast believes, then we shouldn't divide the table into past and present: there is a single form which covers both, not a past form "used gnomically". Also, it's more than just present: Campbell gives forms in the future, as in 'and it would obey you' in Lu17:6 (though some are typically translated as past perfect, even though the event has yet to happen, as at καθως εμε απεστειλας εις τον κοσμον, καγω απεστειλα αυτους εις τον κοσμον 'As you sent me into the world, I will send them into the world' in Jn17:18). — kwami (talk) 08:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, I see your "dubious" tags. The first relates to whether the aorist tense is a tense. As Akhilleus says, we have numerous sources saying that it is, and one or two expressing doubt. I think its up you to explain why those numerous sources are wrong. I am uncertain what claim the other dubious tags relate to, since they are attached to words. Is it the legitimacy of those widely-used words you are questioning? And what are your grounds for questioning them? Would you be satisfied with a table of equivalents relating the usual Ancient-Greek-language terms to the ones you are familiar with?

As to the table, the use of the "about the present" and "about the past" columns was intended to focus on uses of the forms, rather than necessarily classifying them formally as past or present forms. I have been guided what the typical reader would want to know -- and someone asking "what is the aorist?" is likely to be someone bumping into Greek for the first time.

As to Luke 17:6, that involves a conditional statement -- the aorist in conditional statements contrasts with the imperfect slightly differently than it does in simple statements about the past. -- Radagast3 (talk) 22:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

You have yourself admitted that it's not a tense. No study of tense and aspect considers it a tense: that's merely a holdover of traditional terminology. It doesn't mean the traditional sources are "wrong" to use the term, only that it's wrong for us to present it as a tense without explaining that it's not a tense in the way we (and nearly all linguists) define it at grammatical tense, as a point on a timeline. The lingistic sources don't "express doubt", they categorically deny that it's a tense, and explain why. The traditional sources, on the other hand, merely use the conventional terminology without defining their terms; they do not claim that it's a tense in the modern sense of the word. The way you state "some linguists" suggests that there's some debate: there is not. The only debate I've seen is whether the aorist is a perfective restricted to the past tense, or just a perfective. Find one source from the past 20 years, if you can, that notes the difference between tense and aspect and then explains how the aorist is the former.

I'm not debating the legitimacy of the words within Greek studies, as long as this is explained as jargon where "tense" does not mean tense. However, the aorist is used for other languages as well, such as Georgian, so we need to be more general in our overall coverage. Also, I'd like to see some evidence that Beetham's distinction between "aorist aspect" and "aorist tense", "perfect aspect" and "perfect tense" is actually the norm for Greek studies, rather than simply an idiosyncratic attempt on his part to clarify the concepts or terminology. If Greek studies does not make this distinction between "aspect" and "tense", then there is no reason for us to either, and we can simply note that the imperfect, aorist, and perfect are all called "tenses" in traditional accounts.

The split in the table implies that the aorist is a past imperfective, which you say it is not; if it is not, then the two cells should either be merged or the second should be worded 'aorist used in the past tense'. If it turns out it is essentially PAST.PFV, with a few non-past uses, then the table is fine. — kwami (talk) 22:41, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

1. I believe you may have misunderstood me. I think the aorist aspect is an aspect and the aorist tense is a tense.

2. You say "No study of tense and aspect considers it a tense," but I think we need sources supporting that statement. So far, nobody involved in this RfC is agreeing with you on any of the issues you raise.

3. The article contains several books on Greek grammar from the past 20 years supporting the distinction between aorist aspect and aorist tense, most recently Beetham. Constantine Campbell uses "aorist indicative" and "aorist tense" as synonyms (see p. 106), as do the bulk of other writers. Basically, the aorist indicative is (mostly) a form of past tense, but the aorist aspect in general is an aspect having nothing to do with the past: this is the distinction that is being made. It's an important distinction and IMO a clear one.

4. As to grammatical tense, that article is a mess, without a single inline citation. I cannot comment on how it relates to tense as used here. It does say "some languages have different past tenses," which is consistent with the aorist indicative being primarily a past tense.

5. It is true that the aorist indicative carries the past-time augment, but once again, my intention in the table was to refer to uses, which are uncontroversial, and which do not require committing to whether the aorist indicative is a past tense or not. It is certainly used to talk about the past.

6. You keep referring to "the past tense." Please explain what you mean by that; it seems to assume that languages only have one past tense.

7. The sentence about "some linguists" was the strongest case I could make based on one source. If you have multiple sources giving reasons why it's not a tense, please write a sourced paragraph explaining why. While I believe most readers of the article want the traditional terminology, there are obvious benefits to relating this terminology to that used in other fields. The ideal is that you find a source which explicitly discusses Ancient Greek using your preferred terminology. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

1. From what I've seen, "aspect" is used for the form of the root, and "tense" for the indicative derivation of the root. This is completely unrelated to the syntactic/modern linguistic use of "tense" and "aspect". If the "aorist aspect" is aspect, and the "aorist tense" is tense, please give two clauses, one in the aspect and one in the tense, to contrast them. If you can't do that, then you can't establish that there are two tense/aspect forms.

2-3. I can't prove a negative. You need to show where it is shown to be a tense. Can you quote Beetham where he concludes that? Constantine makes it abundantly clear that it is not a tense. Didn't you read any of him?

4. Yes, our tense article is a mess. But you can read any survey of tense/aspect, or any introductory linguistic text, to find out what it is. If the aorist is a tense, where on the timeline does it occur? What distinguishes it from the past, or any other prototypical tense?

5. Above you said it is past tense, now you're saying it's not.

6. I should say "a past tense". Yes, languages can vary here. Any past tense would do: any point prior to the present.

7. A few sources. (There are plenty more, but I have to go.)

• Constantine, 2007, as above: perfective aspect w connotations of 'remoteness'
• Comrie, as above: perfective, primarily used in the past when in the indicative
• Mastronarde, 1993, Intro to Attic Greek : fundamentally aspect, used in the past when in the indicative (= past perfective)
• Fanning, 1990, Verbal Aspect in NT Greek : uses the phrase "aorist tense" when not clarifying tense vs aspect, and may switch between 'aorist tense' and 'aorist aspect' (including 'aorist tense' in the imperative), but concludes it's perfective. Extensively quoted by Campbell in demonstrating it's aspect.
• Kim, 2008, Intricately Connected : "Because there is really no sense of tense but only of aspect which distinguishes the present from the aorist ..."
• Zerwick, 1963, Biblical Greek : "the word « tenses » is put in inverted commas because the forms to be treated are but inaccurately called « tenses ». « tenses » express the notion of time: ... « aorist » ... connotes simply the action without further determination."
• Buth, 2004, "Verbs Perception and Aspect", in Biblical Greek language and lexicography : notes how trad. descr. of IMP & AOR are equivalent to IPFV and PFV, and "in order to compare these traditional terms with the general linguistic terms," substitute them. p 177 Something more about the indicative, but I can't access that.
• Porter, 1992, Idioms of the Greek New Testament : throughout uses "the perfective (aorist) aspect".
• Napoli, 2006, Aspect and actionality in Homeric Greek : describes aorist-present as actually PFV-IPFV.

— kwami (talk) 23:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I see you have listed several books, but without links and with out-of-context quotes, so it isn't clear what statements they are supporting. As to your request: the aorist indicative and the aorist imperative are both examples of the aorist aspect; the aorist indicative is generally called the "aorist tense." That may or may not be a "tense" as far as you're concerned, but the terminology is very common.

That's fine. But if it isn't a grammatical tense, we need to be very careful to be clear about that. — kwami (talk)

Can you also please answer my points 1 to 7? -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have. — kwami (talk) 23:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you.

1. You say that "From what I've seen, 'aspect' is used for the form of the root, and 'tense' for the indicative derivation of the root." That seems to be WP:OR. You say "This is completely unrelated to the syntactic/modern linguistic use of 'tense' and 'aspect.'" I am prepared to believe that, but I'm still looking for reasons to do so.

2-3. You say "I can't prove a negative." Exactly. Therefore you have no justification for your statement. I have evidence that Beetham calls it a tense; if you don't like that, you need to provide evidence. I found one reference saying that the aorist tense is not a tense; if you add 2 more, that would justify changing "some linguists" to "many linguists."

4. You ask "If the aorist is a tense, where on the timeline does it occur?" Used as a past tense, the aorist occurs at a vague unspecified past region on the timeline. In this way it differs from, say, the perfect tense, which refers to a past point with consequences continuing into the present (generally drawn as a dot in the past with an arrow continuing into the present).

5-6. You say "Above you said it is past tense, now you're saying it's not." That's misrepresenting what I said. I'm saying that although it has important non-past uses, which may suggest that it is not a past tense, there are also several arguments for calling it a past tense, such as the use of the past-time augment.

7. As I said, you have listed several books, but without links and with out-of-context quotes, so it isn't clear what statements they are supporting.

If I can try to resolve this, your first main problem seems to be the traditional terminology itself. Would it suffice to add a table of terminological equivalents somewhere? Your second problem seems to be whether the aorist tense is indeed a tense. I would be happy for you to add sources saying it isn't (ideally, sources saying why not), and to then turn "some linguists" into "many linguists." Do we at least both agree, though, that the aorist indicative is widely called a tense? -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Yes, that's OR. But you have provided no evidence for anything else, so your claims are also OR.

2-3. No, not "some linguists", not "many lingists", not even "linguists". Aorist is not a tense. You have provided no evidence that it is. All you have shown is that it is traditionally called a tense. But every single reference we have that questions what it is has concluded either that it is aspect (Campbell), or aspect with tense (most of the others). Unless you can provide evidence that it actually is a tense, then we say it's an aspect, and note that in traditional scholarship it's inaccurately called a tense. That's what we have citations for. That's why Zerwick as far back as 1963 puts "tense" in scare quotes when discussing Greek.

4. The perfect is not a "tense". If the aorist is just some vague point in the past, then it is past tense, and we could merge this article with that one.

5-6. The past-time augment is not evidence that the aorist is past tense, but evidence that it is not. (As cited.) Not conclusive evidence; it could simply be redundant. More commonly, when you add a past tense marker to something for use in the past tense, the item without the past tense marker is not past tense. Your argument is like saying that English "go" is future tense because you can add a future augment "will" to it.

7. They're all available on Google Books. I'll add links when I have a bit more time. — kwami (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

• Scholars who conclude that the aorist indicative is either PFV or past PFV: Constantine, Mastronarde, Fanning, Kim, Zerwick, Porter, Buth, Napoli, Comrie, Haspelmath (ed), Sihler, Van Ness Goetchius
• Scholars who conclude that the aorist indicative is a tense, not an aspect: —

(edit conflict)1. No, everything inserted in the article be me and other editors is referenced in detail; it is not WP:OR.

2. You say the "aorist tense" (i.e. aorist indicative) is not a tense. Once again, the article should stand as is until you provide sources proving the opposite. With page numbers and quotes or links.

3. The aorist indicative is clearly not the same as the past tense in e.g. English. Merging with past tense would make no sense.

4. You say that the perfect tense is not a tense. Again, evidence, please.

5. Once again, I am not saying that the aorist aspect, in general, is a past tense. I am suggesting that the past-time augment has been used as evidence that the aorist indicative is a past tense (and indeed, as evidence that the perfect indicative is not).

8. Once again, your first main problem seems to be the traditional terminology itself. Would it suffice to add a table of terminological equivalents somewhere? Your second problem seems to be whether the aorist tense is indeed a tense. I would be happy for you to add sources saying it isn't (ideally, sources saying why not), and to then turn "some linguists" into "many linguists." Do we at least both agree, though, that the aorist indicative is widely called a tense?

9. Also, all your "dubious" tags are now attached to sourced statements. Please explain, for each one, what the remaining problem is.

10. In addition, I believe you may be misinterpreting some sources. Comrie says, for example: "In Ancient Greek, the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense, although it does have some nonpast uses. In other moods and in nonfinite forms, the Aorist is purely aspectual, not an expression of tense." (p 12, n 1) -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. I've provided numerous citations; I can't help it if you don't want to bother looking them up. I've explained what the problem is, over and over.

Simply put, you have provided no citations that the aorist is a tense. I have provided numerous citations that it is either an aspect or a combination of aspect and tense. I have marked 'dubious' claims that are demonstrably false if the words are given their modern meanings. Sorry, tradition needs to be given its due, but it doesn't trump facts. Here's a cite that Taivo just provided:

• Eugene Van Ness Goetchius, 1965, The Language of the New Testament, Charles Scribner's, p 75:

In the previous lesson we found that, in the present and future tenses, English verbs have separate sets of forms to express the two aspects of action we have called "indefinite" and "progressive," but that Greek verbs have only one set of forms in each of these tenses to express both of these aspects; i.e.,
λύω corresponds to both I loose ("indefinite aspect") and I am loosing ("progressive aspect")
and
λύσω corresponds to both I shall loose ("indefinite aspect") and I shall be loosing ("progressive aspect")
For indicating action in past time, however, Greek verbs have two sets of forms. Forms of one kind usually express the aspect we have called "progressive"; these forms make up the tense called the imperfect. Forms of the second kind usually express the "indefinite" aspect; these forms make up the tense called the aorist (< Gk ἀόριστος, indefinite).

1. In traditional grammatical terminology the imperfect and aorist are called tenses; they are actually sets of forms each of which (in the indicative mood) expresses (1) past time and (2) the particular aspect proper to the set.

(edit conflict) Comrie's quote needs to be placed in context. It's a book on aspect, in a section introducing the difference between PFV and IPFV. In this context, the aorist is a PFV aspect used primarily in the past tense. This is what everyone else is saying too: the only difference is whether it's inherently past tense (past perfective), generally past tense (somewhere in between), or tends to be used in the past because perfectives have that tendency (just perfective). As Campbell stated, there is "no controversy" about this. — kwami (talk) 01:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the Eugene Van Ness Goetchius quote; it establishes that the aorist aspect is an aspect, which I think we both agreed on.

As to Comrie, you seem to be saying he is using "tense" in different senses? Because his words seemed to me quite clear. You seem to be trying to relate what he says ("the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense") to some other concept of the past tense. I think you need to explain what you mean by that, in the context of ancient Greek.

As to Campbell, he seems to say that the aorist indicative is a special case of the aorist aspect; I agree. He also introduces a theory that the aorist indicative can be understood in terms of remoteness rather than time; that seems idiosyncratic.

For the third time, your first main problem seems to be the traditional terminology itself. Would it suffice to add a table of terminological equivalents somewhere? Your second problem seems to be whether the aorist tense is indeed a tense. I would be happy for you to add sources saying it isn't (ideally, sources saying why not), and to then turn "some linguists" into "many linguists." Do we at least both agree, though, that the aorist indicative is widely called a tense?

And can you please explain what the "claims that are demonstrably false" are? -- Radagast3 (talk) 01:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Checking one of your sources, Fanning uses "aorist tense" to mean the aorist indicative, as do the other writers I've looked at; this seems to me to justify what the article is saying. Napoli says that Ancient Greek has both aspect and tense. -- Radagast3 (talk) 03:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not following this. I'll simply repeat that the aorist is normally treated as a tense (i.e. a form that expresses both time and aspect) in classical Greek. This is the case in Hansen and Quinn, and it's the case in Mastronarde, e.g. p. 139: "The aorist indicative is more or less equivalent to the English simple past tense and so is a secondary tense in Greek. Accordingly the aorist indicative has augment, like the imperfect, and the personal endings are secondary endings." (Mastronarde also treats "perfect-stem aspect" as different from the present and aorist on p. 148.) as I can believe that Greek pedagogy differs from what one might find in linguistics, but so far in this discussion it's not clear to me what the difference is. I can say, though, that an article on the aorist that doesn't treat the aorist as a tense in classical Greek is going to look weird to most people who have learned ancient Greek, who will probably constitute a significant fraction of this article's readership. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you on (1) the common use of "aorist tense," (2) catering to what the readers expect, and (3) not understanding what the problem with the article is. I would have thought that with recent rewording and citations any issues have been handled, and the two of us certainly seem to have reached consensus. I'd welcome any suggestions on what to do next. -- Radagast3 (talk) 04:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Looking over the discussion, I wonder if my problem is that I think of tense as a combination of time and aspect (which is what I learned from my Greek books), but kwami seems to think of tense as an indication of time, separate from tense. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

That may be it; certainly there are multiple viewpoints on tense in Ancient Greek (for example, is the "Perfect Tense" a form of past tense, or a form of present tense, or a tense of its own?). The article sources what it says, though, and acknowledges other viewpoints; I think the limit of reasonable accommodation may have been reached. -- Radagast3 (talk) 04:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Akhilleus, here is a very simple, but linguistically accurate, way to look at what we're talking about here. Tense is a marker of time only. When did the action happen? Most commonly languages mark a couple of different times--past or non-past, future or non-future. A number of languages mark three times--past, present, future. There are also some rare time markers such as "mythological past", "distant past", "distant future", "within a couple of days", etc. In Greek, the marked tenses are future and non-future. That means that there is no special marking that means only "past", but there is a special marker that means "future". Aspect is a marker of manner, length, and completion. How did the action happen? How long did it take to do the action? Was the action finished or is it still happening or incomplete? Aorist in Greek is an aspect only. It marks rapid completion, typically with a single event. Outside the indicative, it is clearly not tied to time. In the indicative, it implies a past action, but it does not specifically mark past, only as a default time. But even though past is implied, it is still an aspect and not a tense because its primary use is to mark a quickly completed action. It contrasts not with the present or future, but with the incompletive, which is also an aspect, and in the indicative also implies a past action, but one that occurs over a period of time. Perfective is an aspect that marks an action that has been definitely completed (the opposite of imperfective). "Aorist" is a subset of Perfective, but with the added notion of quickly completed. Perfect is an aspect separate from "perfective". It means that that action has been completed prior to another stated action ("I think John has finished his homework"--finishing happened before thinking; or "I thought John had finished his homework"; or "I think John will have finished his homework before leaving"--finishing happens before leaving). --Taivo (talk) 05:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for stepping in. I think we all agree that the aorist aspect is an aspect; the issue is on how to describe the aorist indicative, which is widely (though perhaps not accurately) described as the "aorist tense."

I'm not sure that "rapid completion" is an accurate depiction of the aorist aspect; that's certainly different from what all the textbooks say, and different from what I was taught.

However, the practical issue here is: does the article adequately express the various complexities involved? If not, can you suggest improved wording? -- Radagast3 (talk) 05:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

As with most language instruction, you were probably taught using traditional labels and not modern terminology. When I took Greek long ago, I also learned that these were all "tenses"--just like English learners are taught that there are 12 "tenses" in English. "Rapid completion" is, of course, a generalization of "completed in one act over a short period of time" as opposed to the imperfective which means, "completed, maybe or not, over a period of time". Perhaps a better comparison between aorist and imperfective aspects would be "definitely completed" versus "not definitely completed". I'm just going off the grammars I have at hand so that's a supposition. There isn't a difference between the indicative and the other moods. In the indicative, the semantics of completion require a past interpretation, but aorist does not overtly mark past tense, only by implication--completed actions require a semantic interpretation of past time in the indicative mood. But just because it is implicationally past doesn't make it a tense marker. --Taivo (talk) 05:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) *Aspect, not a tense. Aorist in Greek is clearly and unequivocally an aspect--it marks a completed action that has been completed with one occurrence of the activity or very quickly. It marks past tense only in one mood and only implicationally, not overtly. If it overtly marked tense (as the English past does), then it would occur throughout the paradigm in all past tense cases (as the English past does) and could co-occur with imperfective. However, it competes with the imperfective which also "marks" past tense. Since the two indicators of past time are in complementary distribution based solely on aspectual terms, then neither is a past tense, but both are aspects. Greek is similar to many languages that have aspect markers rather than tense markers--"past" time is marked by means of one of a set of aspect markers that mean "completed slowly", "completed quickly", "completed repeatedly", "worked on it, but didn't finish", etc. In Greek, past time is marked with the choice of a "worked on over time, maybe finished and maybe not" (imperfective) or a "completed quickly and definitely" (aorist) aspect marker. These are not tenses in a linguistic sense, but only aspects. --Taivo (talk) 05:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Everyone here agrees that the aorist aspect is an aspect, not a tense. Indeed, I first stepped in to rewrite the article to clarify that (incidentally, as someone who reads both Plato and St Paul, I would disagree slightly with your characterisation of the aorist);

Everyone (I think) agrees that most Greek textbooks describe the aorist indicative as the "aorist tense";

The issue is how to handle the article in the face of these complexities -- is the wording currently in the lead adequate? If not, can you suggest better wording? -- Radagast3 (talk) 05:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The wording in the overall lead seems fine, but the wording in the Section on Greek talks about an "aorist aspect" and an "aorist tense". This is wrong. It is only an aspect. The discussion of aorist in Greek needs to be cleaned up to remove the implication that it is a tense sometimes and an aspect sometimes. There is also no perfect "tense". Perfect is also an aspect. The imperfective, perfect, and aorist are all aspects--there is no "past tense" in Greek. --Taivo (talk) 05:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

In the table, for example, all those "tenses" are not tenses at all, but aspects. Here's what they really mean: Imperfective: "I have bowed many times in the past and might still bow now and in the future"; Perfect: "I have bowed before speaking to you now"; Aorist: "I bowed once and completed the act". These are markers of time only by implication, not by meaning. None of them is a tense. --Taivo (talk) 05:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm only guessing, but perhaps because in most applicable languages tenses are only distinguished in the indicative, the Greek indicative forms are called "tenses". But in modern linguistic terminology, as Taivo says, a "tense" deals only with 'when', with placement on a timeline. "Aspect" deals with temporal structure, not the when. Often the two are fused, so that only certain combinations of tense and aspect occur (as in Spanish, with past PFV and past IPFV, but not PFV or IPFV outside of the past). That's what several of the cites have said about Ancient Greek, though not the more detailed ones. Anything other than a simple 'when', however, is not a tense, or at least not only tense. — kwami (talk) 05:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I took a stab at rewriting the lead to reflect modern linguistic understanding. I didn't adjust the references, but just reworded it. --Taivo (talk) 05:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It is a fact that the "aorist indicative" is widely called the "aorist tense." Most readers will be familiar with the second term. At present we use the term familiar to most readers and explain that many linguists don't consider it really a tense. I don't think repeating the last part of the lead is really necessary, is it?

The current "about the past" column title allows avoiding use of the term "past tense."

Would it suffice to add a table of equivalents between traditional terms like "perfect tense" and other terms?

And are you sure the perfect tense is not a tense? Some authors suggest it is. -- Radagast3 (talk) 06:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's OK to reword in a way which contradicts the references, btw. That violates WP:V. -- Radagast3 (talk) 06:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I told you above that it was a working rewrite and I didn't adjust the references, but it is a perfectly accurate rewrite. This article needs to reflect linguistic accuracy as much as possible. The Greek terms can be mentioned (once) to orient the reader, but linguistically accurate terminology must be used, not the Greek traditional material. The reader would be much more confused by using one set of terms for Greek, one set for Sanskrit, and one set for the lead. The lead right now doesn't really deal with any language other than Greek and that needs to be corrected. Greek isn't the only I-E language with an aorist. A table of equivalents would be fine as long as the text of the article only uses "aspect". And, yes, perfect is not a tense, it is an aspect. --Taivo (talk) 06:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The perfect is a bit odd. It has elements of both aspect and tense. In the quote from Comrie above, he includes perfect in his book on aspect, as it certainly isn't a tense, but notes that it isn't a very good fit. It really doesn't fit in a tense-aspect dichotomy. Which is why our article was moved to perfect (grammar) rather than 'perfect aspect' or 'perfect tense'. (Though it is common to include it as an aspect and not worry about it too much, just as the English future modal is often counted as a future tense without worrying about it too much.)

All we need to do IMO is use the terms 'aorist' and 'perfect' when dealing with those in general, and 'aorist indicative' when dealing specifically with the aorist in the indicative. We have Greek-studies sources which do that, it's clear, and it doesn't contradict anything. It should be intelligible from either the traditional or modern perspective.

I think we can then relegate the 'tense'-'aspect' terminology conflict to a paragraph and leave it at that. We can note that the traditional term is 'tense' (and not just for the indicative: some of our sources appear to use 'aorist tense' where Beetham uses 'aorist aspect'), but that the aorist indicative is universally acknowledged as being either a pure aspect or a combination of tense+aspect. Deciding between the latter two will be more difficult, and IMO probably best handled in a section describing the past implications of the aorist indicative.

Outside of classical Greek, I think the aorist typically is aspect+tense (Bulgarian, Georgian, etc.) — kwami (talk) 06:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The current rewrite of the Greek section (generally replacing "tense" with "indicative") is much better. --Taivo (talk) 06:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Right now, the lead paragraph is too heavily Helleno-centric. It mentions Sanskrit and Bulgarian in passing, then talks virtually only about Greek from then on. It needs more balance. --Taivo (talk) 06:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Kwami, can you please check your dubious tags and remove any you feel are no longer needed?

Can someone please volunteer to write sections "Usage in Sanskrit", "Usage in Bulgrian", etc.? Then we can adjust the lead if needed. -- Radagast3 (talk) 06:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion on remaining "dubious" tags

That leaves 3 dubious tags:

• In the lead: "A specific use of the aorist aspect is the so-called aorist tense"
• In the table: Present (continuous)
• In the table: Aorist indicative used gnomically

I'm not sure I understand the problems here. Don't we agree that the phrase "aorist tense" is widely used? Don't we agree that the aorist indicative is usually used in discussing the past? Don't we agree that it is also used gnomically? -- Radagast3 (talk) 06:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is common. IMO we should have in the lede "traditionally called the aorist tense", followed by the qualification that it isn't a tense in the modern sense. We also need to clarify whether all of the aorist forms are commonly included in that, or only the indicative as Beetham would have it. Per Campbell, it doesn't seem that gnomic aorist is a distinct usage, but I could easily be wrong there. — kwami (talk) 07:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Okay, I removed a couple. These are the problems I still have: (1) use of the term for gnomic should be a separate paragraph, (2) it is equivalent to the PFV, not just called it; also, for most of these languages (i.e. outside of Greek) it isn't actually a simple aspect, but aspect+tense, like preterite, (3) if I'm not mistaken, the 'aorist tense' is just the aorist in the indicative, and then only for some authors, whereas the lede presents it as if it were a separate phenomenon, (4) it's misleading to say "it's not considered a tense by many". AFAIK, it's not considered a tense (modern definition) by any, just called one. Akhilleus was under the impression that tense includes aspect because of this tradition. We should simply say it's not a grammatical tense. (5) the table suggests that the aorist indicative is in essence a past-tense form, with some gnomic uses. Is that accurate? Several of our sources go to great lengths to demonstrate that this is not the case, that it is past tense only by implication, even if used 80% of the time for past events (at least in narration, which may not be representative), though others do describe it as past PFV. (This is a less tractable problem, as it's substantial rather than just terminological.) (6) similarly, I don't see why the perfect should be restricted to the past tense in the table. It bridges past and present. (7) also in the table, is the 'present' really present tense or present continuous? Most of while I've seen suggests that it's more like a present imperfective, though I haven't been watching for that. — kwami (talk) 06:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)OK, thanks for that.

(1) Maybe gnomic should be a separate paragraph, but does that affect the entry in the table?

I meant gnomic in the lede, in the revisions you kept reverting. — kwami (talk)

(2) We can change the wording to "equivalent to the PFV" if there's a source. Taivo suggested that they weren't exactly equivalent. Certainly we shouldn't claim that without a source.

I think we have several such sources, apart from the problem of whether it's inherently past. Besides, you disagreed w Taivo on his minor distinction between PFV and AOR, and I assume you have your sources for that.

(3) My problem is that most readers will come here having read something about the "aorist tense" (because of the huge number of references to it, especially in Christian literature, but also in literature on classical Greek writing). They will expect to see that phrase in bold, and an explanation of what it means. I think we currently have something that will satisfy them, pointing them at the wider concept (the "aorist aspect") and giving them the correct terminology. I note that aorist tense has redirected here since 15 June 2004. I think "A specific use of the aorist aspect is the so-called aorist tense" is short and clear.

I agree that 'aorist tense' should be bold, I just didn't want bolding in my answer here.

Short and clear, yes, but since in at least one of our sources it appears that the aorist imperative is part of the 'aorist tense', I'm not sure it's accurate. (I had written a version of that myself before seeing some of this lit.)

(4) We clearly can't say "it's not considered a tense by any," because some people still use the term (even Comrie says that the aorist indicative is "a past tense"). We have to use wording that summarises the sources we've got.

I think you need to read Comrie. AFAIK he does not say the aorist is a past tense, only that it's a perfective used in the past tense, not at all the same thing. (I don't know where my copy of Aspect got to!)

We should just say, simply and clearly, that it's not a tense. Several of our sources which use the term "aorist tense" admit as much, that the term "tense" is just tradition and not grammatically accurate.

(5) "the table suggests that the aorist indicative is primarily a past-tense form, with some gnomic uses." -- yes, that is accurate. Comrie backs that up. The small number of gnomic uses is significant because of the principle they establish (there are also complexities of the aorist when used in conditionals; the article currently doesn't discuss those).

Yes, Comrie backs it up, but he's not a specialist in Classical Greek. Campbell and some of the other Greek specialists have a more nuanced view. But as I said, this is a substantial problem with the article, apart from our disagreement about wording: We do not have a coherent definition of the aorist, because the sources disagree with each other.

(6) yes, the perfect bridges past and present in a way. The focus in this article, though, is how it contrasts with the aorist, particularly when discussing the past. The primary purpose of the table is to summarise the examples.

But it inaccurately implies that the perfect is a past tense form, which it is not. Also, if we broaden the aorist, your objection becomes moot. Several of our refs speak of an AOR-IMP-PERF contrast in the indicative, and not limited to the past.

(7) The Greek present tense is equivalent to the English present continuous (see citation), hence the parentheses. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, but several refs I've seen claim that it isn't present tense, but present imperfective, which fits the layout of the table perfectly. — kwami (talk) 07:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (1) Given that Taivo thinks there's too much Greek in the lead, do we really need the gnomic there?

(2) I haven't seen any sources that explicitly use the phrase "equivalent to." I would love to find one. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(3) You say "it appears that the aorist imperative is part of the 'aorist tense'" -- I'm not aware of such a source. Which one? -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(4) The article quotes Comrie in the footnote: "In Ancient Greek, the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense, although it does have some nonpast uses. In other moods and in nonfinite forms, the Aorist is purely aspectual, not an expression of tense." There's a link if you don't believe me. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(5) Well, Campbell is Koine rather than Classical, but what does he say that differs from Comrie? -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(6) That's why I was careful to use the phrase "about the past." I'm aware that the interaction of tense and perfect is a thorny one, and I was trying hard not to take a stand either way. I did not want to go into lengthy discussions of the perfect here, since that belongs in the article on the subject. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(7) My point is that the present imperfective/continuous is the only present tense in Greek. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(1) I'm not talking about Greek, but about Turkish and Swahili.

(2) The point is certainly made in other words if not those.

(3) Thought I mentioned it above. Will look tomorrow.

(4) I understand those are the words he used. Surely you're aware of the dangers of taking s.o.'s words out of context? The link does not work.

(5) Campbell says the aorist is not primarily a past tense, only that it tends to be used for past events. He says instead that it's 'remote', s.t. which seems to be idiosyncratic to Campbell.

(6) But the table still shows the perfect as being restricted to the past tense.

(7) No, you also have the gnomic use of the aorist. And again, I've come across several claims that it is not a tense, but an aspect. E.g. Zerwick says that none of the "tenses" indicate time. Also Taivo's comment above that the temporal distinction in Greek is future & non-future, w/o a grammatical present. — kwami (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(1) Oh. So far we seem to have little in the way of sources about those; they don't (on the basis of evidence presented to date) seem to involve the AOR aspect, so don't sit well in this article. I think this article should restrict itself to the AOR aspect and important uses of the AOR, and possibly restrict itself to IE uses of the AOR.

(2) I'd like to say "equivalent to," if we can back it up, but we can't really assert exact equivalence without a source. After all, why are AOR and PFV both still standard abbreviations? In fact, the article has references arguing against equivalence.

(4) The link worked for me, and for the editor who led me there.

(6) The table is not intended to show the perfect as being restricted to the past tense. I've added an entry for the perfect/present combination (even though I still think it distracts from the main purpose of the table). And the table quite deliberately does not use the term "past tense," to avoid making any claims about tense (there may be disagreement as to whether the aorist indicative is a past tense, but everyone agrees that it's usually used to talk about the past).

(7) Yes, the gnomic use of the aorist is used in the present. My point is that people say "present tense" for the Greek present continuous, because there is nothing else carrying the name "present tense." That is, present = present continuous. However, the table doesn't use the word "tense," so I'm not sure what the problem is. -- Radagast3 (talk) 08:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Does Zerwick really say that the present isn't present, and the future isn't future? ... I see Zerwick really does say that. That seems, well, idiosyncratic. I don't think it's strong enough evidence to put "present" in quotation marks. -- Radagast3 (talk) 08:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The link to Comrie's book works for me. This is a link to the U.S. version of Google Books, which probably only works in the U.S. If you're in another country, go to the local Google Books site and search for "the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense" and you'll probably get the right page.

Thanks, Taivo, for the explanation. The article is likely to seem confusing and perhaps completely wrong to readers who have studied classical Greek unless it is very clear on the distinction between "tense" as used by linguists and "tense" as used in Greek pedagogy. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Comrie had earlier written a book on tense, which I haven't read.

Before he came out with his Aspect, the field was so confused with different terms for different languages that a linguist would often be perplexed as to what another linguist meant when using them to describe some other language, as with aorist for gnomic in Swahili, or whether preterit has its Spanish or English meaning. Comrie set out to find what was common to the various descriptions (including his own Slavic) and work out a system that applied to all of them, and his book has become the defining standard for aspect. For a while people would use the terms and say parenthetically how Comrie defined them; now they tend to just use the terms and assume that the reader will understand them as Comrie defined them. — kwami (talk) 20:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that the terminological changes that kwami and Taivo were insisting on have made the article less readable to most readers. I've tried to soften the rewording to be as helpful as possible to the reader. -- Radagast3 (talk) 20:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(1) Since the AOR is either PFV or PST.PFV, there is no reason for this to be a separate article for its subject matter, but only for the usage of the term. So IMO this article should be about the tradition of the term aorist rather than the aorist aspect itself. Just as perfective covers languages with similar PST.PFV inflections as well as Germanic languages which don't, so we should cover languages with a tradition in which "aorist" means s.t. other than PST.PFV. We needn't go into great detail: that should be left to the grammar sections of the language articles themselves.

(2) We can just say that it's the (past) perfective in languages with a Greek grammatical tradition.

(4) I'm in the US, and only that snippet comes up, not the whole page. But the discussion continues on p 19, where I can see another snippet: "In Ancient Greek, for instance, the Aorist (perfective past) of the verb ..."

(7) My only question there is the exact nature of the Greek "present". You seem to be defining it as present continuous based on what corresponds in English, and I'd like to accurate to what it is in Greek. — kwami (talk) 20:01, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

(1/2) The AOR is not viewed by everyone as the same as the PFV. Therefore it needs an article. If you have a proposal for re-scoping this article, please start another RfC or a move/split proposal.

(4) I'm in Australia, and it works for me.

(7) I quote from a footnote in the article: "The Greek Present corresponds more closely in meaning to the English Present Continuous than to the Present Simple." -- Radagast3 (talk) 20:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Which article? Also, 'more close' doesn't mean 'is'. You're defining Greek in terms of English. — kwami (talk) 20:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This article. And I'm not defining Greek in terms of English, I'm calling it "present" and adding "continuous" in brackets. I think that helps the reader. It is in fact exactly what Mounce does in his book on NT Greek. -- Radagast3 (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

And, unless you argue to the contrary, I'll remove the "dubious" tags, since they seem to be resolved; the argument has now moved on to whether an article about the aorist aspect should exist at all. -- Radagast3 (talk) 21:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I've restored them, since they have not been addressed. And since you've restored the factual errors I removed, I've tagged them as dubious too. — kwami (talk) 23:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

What "factual errors" did I restore? As to the "dubious" tags, please provide a clear summary, for each tag, of what the problem is, or we'll never get anywhere. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I've been over this again and again. So has Taivo. How will saying it again help you understand if you didn't understand the first several times? Please read a book on aspect such as Comrie, or Bybee for that matter (though Comrie is nice and short, clearly written, and readily available), so that you have the background to follow the discussion. — kwami (talk) 23:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Please, let's be civil here. You appear to believe that your personal expertise exceeds those of the authors of Greek textbooks; I would like to see evidence of your credentials before accepting that. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if that came across as uncivil. I'm just frustrated. You're reading support for your views which I cannot find in your citations, and refutations for mine which I likewise can't find. Taivo and I have provided numerous sources that the aorist is at least a kind of perfective, maybe a perfective past if not a simple perfective, and that it is not a tense, that the perfect is not a tense, and that the imperfect is not a tense. Given the definition of "tense" in modern linguistics, those descriptions are simply wrong. They are only appropriate as traditional terminology. I have no objection to using traditional terminology, but would rather not make a distinction where we do not need to (for example, traditional scholarship also uses 'aorist indicative' for the aorist "tense", so why not stick to that?), and where we do, we need to clarify exactly what it is.

Take an example from geography. In the era in which many of these Greek texts were written, the Old World was a "continent". Europe, Asia, and Africa were "peninsulas" of that continent. Now, that isn't actually wrong (in fact, I think it makes a lot more sense than our current convention), but nonetheless it would be inappropriate to say "the Asian peninsula" in a WP article without clarifying what that means. Insisting on consistency and clarity by either avoiding or explaining that phrase wouldn't mean I believe that my personal expertise exceeds that of the authors of those texts, only that I object to the balkanization of the encyclopedia, with contradictory uses of terminology in different articles. — kwami (talk) 00:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

More on Lead

The phrase "refers to an action pure and simple" is not accurate and is an idiosyncratic phrasing used in one Greek grammar. Far better is something like the way Joan Bybee describes perfective in "Tense: Tense, Aspect, and Mood," International Encyclopedia of Linguistics, vol. 4, pp. 144-145: "...perfective, which indicates that the situation is to be viewed as a bounded whole..." The more I look at this, the less I see aorist as something different from perfective--a completed action. In rereading my source about aorist, I see that the "quick, single instantiation" is really only about the aorist in non-indicative moods--"Do it once and get it over with", but in the indicative is simple perfective--the act is completed and is not continuing to occur. --Taivo (talk) 13:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you are seriously misunderstanding the aorist (and using a dubious book). How much Classical and/or NT Greek have you studied? I've added more references to the article clarify the situation. -- Radagast3 (talk) 20:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

And to alter a sourced statement to radically change its meaning seriously breaches WP:V. -- Radagast3 (talk) 20:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Then we need a better source. Beetham presents a simplified but not terrible accurate summary of the aorist, which you have repeated at least three times in the article. Surely that is undue weight. Our other sources go into much more detail and are more nuanced. — kwami (talk) 21:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe this. Beetham is, as I'm sure you know, quoting the classic pure et simple characterisation of the aorist. The article contains two other sources which agree with him (Wenham and Fanning). Those writers who describe the aorist as "unmarked" (which is not everybody) provide a similar characterisation to Beetham, Wenham, and Fanning. -- Radagast3 (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

You then go on to provide a contradictory quotation with the lede "Expressed another way". — kwami (talk) 23:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

How is that contradictory? -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Fanning describes the aorist as perfective. (Read Comrie's characterization of the perfective: it is almost identical to Fanning.) Beetham, on the other hand, just calls it "pure and simple". That sounds like an unmarked TAM (tense-aspect-mood) inflection, but says little about its actual form. Perhaps 'contradictory' is too strong a term, but I imagine that if I used Beetham to support an identification of the aorist as perfective, you'd say I'm misquoting him rather than "expressing him another way". However, if you are okay with saying, "expressed in another way, it's perfective", with Fanning or our multiple other refs as sources, I won't object. — kwami (talk) 00:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

That's the main reason I think the nature of perfectivity should be left to perfective aspect, with this article covering the use of the term "aorist" in various language traditions, and whether it's PFV or PFV past: Perfectivity is not an easy concept for an English speaker to grasp, as the multitude of often confused descriptions in Greek grammars makes clear, so IMO it's best to centralize the discussion, and to go into as much detail as appropriate there for the best understanding we can manage, without confusing the issue or contradicting ourselves with this article. — kwami (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not clear to me that the aorist aspect is the same as the perfective: the article has several sources saying it is not. In any case, the perfective aspect article would be a fragile reed for this article to lean on; apart from one sentence about Thai, it is totally unsourced. -- Radagast3 (talk) 20:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Please provide those sources. The ones you did said nothing of the kind that I could see; indeed, they explicitly said the aorist is a perfective. One discusses problems with that analysis in Bulgarian, not Greek, and and the conclusions Bybee drew, but in the end she decided in was perfective after all, and Comrie makes it clear that the Bulgarian aorist-imperfective is a typical Slavic doubling of aspect.

Most of the PFV-IPFV material is actually at IPFV to avoid a content fork. I'll redirect. — kwami (talk) 21:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The references are in the article. Shopen provides a characterisation of languages in which both AOR and PFV are used as distinct, while Dahl remarks on the general question of whether AOR and PFV are identical. -- Radagast3 (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Dahl quotes conclusions that both are the same underlying perfective aspect.

Timberlake (in Shopen) does not show a distinction either. He shows Modern Greek aorist as covering approximately the same area as Mandarin PFV and Oneida PST.PFV, as closer than some of the PFVs are to each other. However, he doesn't actually address the issue (at least not on the cited page), making any interpretation of the table WP:OR.

Demotic is, like English, very far from Indo-European. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:30, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You have shown investigation on how much these two terms cover the same ground or are reflections of the same universal aspectual category, but have not shown anyone who concluded that the aorist is one thing but the (past) PFV is another, only conclusions that they are essentially the same. — kwami (talk) 22:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Dahl is evidence that there is debate, Shopen is evidence that AOR and PFV are used by linguists simultaneously, i.e. not as exact equivalents. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

No, Dahl is evidence that people wondered about this, as they have with many such terminological distinctions, and came to the conclusion that they are essentially the same thing. Timberlake (you didn't even get the name right) is only evidence that different terms are used in the descriptions of different languages, which no-one denies. The sources do not support the claim you're making. If there are scholars who have concluded they are distinct, they would state that they have concluded that they are distinct. — kwami (talk) 23:30, 29 August 2010

Rijksbaron expressly asserts that the aorist (by which he means a stem-class, or rather two of them) is not an aspect and does relate to relative time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Basil Lanneau Gildersleeve

I understand that referring to actual authorities is unusual at Misplaced Pages. But it may be simpler to consult an actual authority on Greek on the aorist tense than to argue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

We've consulted plenty of authorities, and your ref contradicts all of them. We have several detailed accounts of how the aorist is not the past tense. — kwami (talk) 01:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not the imperfect tense, from which it is disjoint in Greek; it is not equivalent to the English simple past, although that is the closest English tense to it. But if you find Gildersleeve strange, what imaginable Greek grammar have you consulted? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

More importantly, it is not, and does not have, the perfective aspect, from which it is disjoint; the aorist implies immediate action, not completed action. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey. Perfective aspect and perfect aspect are two entirely different concepts, despite their unnerving homophony. Perfective aspect is the Greek aorist, perfect aspect is the Greek perfect. — Eru·tuon 19:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Then we should shun the confusing and unnecessary jargon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the confusing jargon (perfect & perfective) is completely entrenched in the lit. A few people have tried introducing 'anterior' for the perfect, but that has other uses; the term 'retrospective' has been suggested, but it doesn't seem to have caught on. So we're stuck with it for now, just as we're stuck with 'American' for a citizen of the United States. — kwami (talk) 23:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Reverting to a good version

Good grief. I go away for a few hours and you've turned a good article into crap again, Radagast. I reverted back to my last version which was a good working version, supported by references and the linguistic facts. Do not keep adding "tense" into this text. Aorist is perfective aspect, it is not, and never will be, a tense. --Taivo (talk) 01:45, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

And Radagast3, "pure and simple" is not a linguistic description of the meaning of anything. It is a totally impressionistic phrase that has no place in an encyclopedic article about an aspect. If you don't like my source, then find a better one that has an actual terminological description and not just something "simple and stupid". --Taivo (talk) 01:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I restored all of Kwami's edits to my last version. This is a linguistically sound presentation. --Taivo (talk) 02:10, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Taivo.

(To whoever else is reading this:) Personally, I think the Greek tradition makes more sense: both tense and aspect deal with time, and they're often intertwined, so in my mind "tense" is a good cover label for them. But that's not the direction that linguistic terminology has taken: "Tense" and "aspect" are now terms for complementary dimensions of encoding time. The cover term is the awkward tense-aspect-mood, often abbreviated to TAM /ˈtæm/ in the lit I read, though I don't know widespread that is. — kwami (talk) 09:31, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

This is ignorance based on misunderstandings of linguistics. The article is about the Greek aorist (and may include other tenses sufficiently similar to be called aorist); it is a tense; it has always been called so. It is a formal category; it may have an aspect, but need not, especially in Koine.

If somebody wants to write an article on aorist (linguistics), feel free.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is not just about the Greek aorist, but about the Indo-European aorist and its descendants. Before reverting good linguistic material, you need to discuss here on the Talk Page first. If you want an article just on the Greek aorist, then you need to make one on "aorist (Greek)". Even in Greek, the aorist is not a tense and good authorities on Greek are cited in reference. It is only called a tense in traditional grammars. --Taivo (talk) 19:14, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Your sources fail to say what you claim they do; and any author who claims that the sets of forms traditionally called "tenses" are not tenses is not writing English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The Ancient Greek aorist (1) is a tense, (2) is an aspect, (3) is fully per se notable enough for its own encyclopedic treatment (with no prejudice against treating it in relation to other topics). Yes, to present (1) and (2) in the way in which good WP:RS substantiate them is going to be a headache for the souls brave enough to do it, but we aren't going to make any progress until (3) is fully grasped. Whatever this article may have covered at various points in its history, before the recent controversy its content seems to have focused mainly on something by the name of "aorist" within the Ancient Greek language. This is a very notable thing and deserves an encyclopedia article. It has the advantage of having an unambiguous referent and correct name (however many the problems in describing what kind of thing it is). If some editors want an article discussing related and comparable phenomena in other languages, I believe that an expansion of this article is the wrong way to get it, precisely because the Gk. aorist is a specific and notable subject, with lots of treatment of it in the best sources on the Greek language (and yes, whether we like it or not, many of them discussing it as a tense). Of course it would be nice if our article on the Greek aorist explains to the reader, with proper attribution, how the Greek aorist has been (variously) described from various comparative & general-linguistics perspectives.

I trust my one central point is clear enough: let's have an article on the Greek aorist, and let's have it here. If it can be shown that "aorist" usually refers to non-Greek phenomena (which I doubt), then we ought to discuss disambiguating the page title. Otherwise I simply can't see why this article should not accomplish the necessary encyclopedic task of dealing with the Greek aorist in all its uniqueness and complexity, for it is a sui generis thing in enough ways that it can't be reduced to an instance of some more general linguistic phenomenon. Wareh (talk) 20:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

This article isn't about the Greek aorist, but about the aorist in the Indo-European languages (principally) and those languages described from an Indo-European viewpoint. You also fail to understand the fundamental linguistics of the issue that aorist, even in Greek, is not a tense, but an aspect. Even contemporary Greek writers are saying this. WP:POINTy tags should not be used in Misplaced Pages. Read the actual sources about aspect versus tense. If you want an article on Greek aorist alone, then write another one labelled "Aorist (Greek)" or some such. --Taivo (talk) 20:30, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You are non-responsive to the suggestion that perhaps this should be the Misplaced Pages article about the Greek aorist, based on (1) what the article has treated through its history, and (2) the prevalence of "aorist" in application to Greek vs. its use otherwise. The Greek aorist has been described as a tense since before it was possible to use the English language to dispute the fact, and reliable sources continue to do so in appropriate contexts, not neglecting its frequent and typical use to express aspect. These reliable sources, not your decrees about what "the fundamental linguistics of the issue" are, ought to be followed by Misplaced Pages. For example, let's please not make it about my undoubted personal deficiencies of linguistic understanding: do you believe that Albert Rijksbaron, in The Syntax and Semantics of the Verb in Classical Greek, is wrong to see "tense" applicable within the indicative? Many other authorities have committed their agreement on this point to print, even if you or I may not have.

If you are really so sure that "real linguists" understand the proper terminology better than such linguistically sophisticated specialists in the Greek language, then I believe, from the point of view of Misplaced Pages's policies, you will be in the same position as the atheist who wants to edit the theology articles, or the physicist who wants to edit the article on Physics (Aristotle): in other words, you may want to consider that the inferior discipline of Classical philology needs encyclopedic treatment of its own subjects, according to the terminology and judgment of its own expert sources, even if you believe the discipline in question to be a pseudo-science. It does meet all the standards that define a field of encyclopedic knowledge, as much as metaphysics or Pokemon-taxonomy. Wareh (talk) 21:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I have probably distracted from the meat of the reasonable objection to Taivo with my rhetoric. It's not benighted classicists (as in my rhetoric) who say the Greek aor. indic. is a tense, but reputable linguists (including the benighted classicists I invoked in my rhetoric). Taivo, Akhilleus above quotes Bernard Comrie as saying, "the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense." Does Comrie "fail to understand the fundamental linguistics of the issue," or am I missing something? Because he calls the Greek aorist indicative primarily a tense. Wareh (talk) 21:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Whatever this article may have started out as, as with many articles in Misplaced Pages it has reached out to fill the expanse of its title--aorist in all its forms and not just a Helleno-centric novelty. In Misplaced Pages, the article with the simplest title should have the broadest coverage. Thus, an article on "aorist" (as this one is becoming), should cover the issue of "aorist" in the broadest possible terms. If you feel that the issue of Greek aorist needs a separate article, then that one should be written, but entitled "Aorist (Greek)" or some such. --Taivo (talk) 21:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. The common meaning of aorist - to quote the 1989 OED, with emphasis added, One of the past tenses of the Greek verb, which takes its name from its denoting a simple past occurrence, with none of the limitations as to completion, continuance, etc., which belong to the other past tenses. It corresponds to the simple past tense in English, as 'he died' ; there are also aorists in Sanskrit and other Indo-European languages. It can, but does not have to, have a aspect; in general, the later the text, the less certain this is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Aorist can't have no aspect. If it has nothing else, it's got the aspect of being simple, unlike other aspects (imperfect, perfect). Wax may have no taste in one sense, but you can still tell if you're tasting wax and not, say, bacon grease (not a perfect analogy, since the two have different textures, but whatever). — Eru·tuon 17:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Suggested articles of compromise

1. Let's stop throwing around words like "crap" to describe the work of other editors.
2. The morphological category that is the Ancient Greek aorist has a senior and strong claim to be an important referent of the word "aorist" (I don't say the strongest, but that may be the case; we can always make aorist a disambiguation page if this is really controversial). The significance of these Greek verbal forms as tense, aspect, etc., has been the subject of significant scholarly discussion.
3. It is impossible to discuss this Ancient Greek morphological category fully and correctly (and doing justice to the range of interpretation offered at the highest level of competence and expertise) as "purely a tense" or "purely an aspect." Akhilleus showed this very handily with his citation from Bernard Comrie, and I mentioned that a linguist specialized in Ancient Greek (Albert Rijksbaron) ends up with much the same formulation. Some editors seem to reject this point violently, but I don't see how the consensus of such a linguist writing on aspect in general and such an Ancient-Greek-linguist writing on Greek syntax and semantics can possibly be disregarded in defining the subject.
4. Therefore, an article on any aspect (or on difference of aspect) -- say, "Aspect A in the world's languages" -- would commit an error if it implied that the subject of the Ancient Greek aorist is completely encapsulated within the subject of "Aspect A." (The same would apply to an article on any tense, or on difference of tense, but that doesn't seem to be an issue.) To put it more strongly, no reader should leave an article about any merely-aspectual phenomenon like "Aspect A" believing that the Greek aorist has been presented in all its complexity under its proper super-category. The article on "Aspect A" should, of course, explore correctly the relation of "Aspect A" to the Greek aorist, and point to the article on the Greek aorist for discussion of its aspects (in the non-technical sense) that are not germane to an article on "Aspect A."
5. Because a full and correct discussion of the Ancient Greek aorist does not fall neatly within any just-tense or just-aspect category (#3-4), and because of #2 above, the Ancient Greek aorist should receive discussion outside of any such framework of comparative analysis.

I think you see where I'm heading, and it would be very useful if we can determine better (maybe even by numbered points) which of these consensus-seeking suggestions is really controversial. So I am proposing a split into two articles, and this obviously produces the questions of practical action: A. What is the best name for an article on the Ancient Greek aorist? B. What is the best name for the articles that discuss various verbal aspects across languages? C. What past contributions to this article can appropriately be included in the article on Greek's aorist, and the article on aorist-as-"Aspect A"? Wareh (talk) 21:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

My position on articles has already been stated. In Misplaced Pages the article with the least specific name should be the article with broadest coverage. Therefore, this article, "Aorist", should cover that aspect in Indo-European and in other languages where the usage of the term is based on its use in Indo-European linguistics. If you want an article that goes into more detail on the Greek aorist aspect only, then that article should be called "Aorist (Greek)" with a hatnote here pointing the interested reader there. This article should still have a summary of the Greek aorist aspect (as it does now), but keeping the linguistically accurate terminology. The article on Greek specifically can deviate based on its coverage of the historical and traditional literature. --Taivo (talk) 22:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree and disagree with parts of the opinions above.

An article on "aorist" should cover the aorist, not the Greek aorist or the Ancient Greek aorist (which are not in full concord with each other), any more than the article on "past tense" should cover only the English past tense. We could have "aorist in Ancient Greek", "aorist in Koine Greek", or just "aorist in Greek", though I'm not sure that between this article and the articles on Ancient Greek and Koine grammar that we really need another. (We could always split this article, and if people don't like it, they could propose remerging, but the issues that are contentious here will carry over to the new article.)

We have good sources both for an analysis of the Ancient/Koine Greek aorist being a pure aspect, and for it being a conflation of aspect and tense. (Modern Greek is the latter.) I don't know which it is. What we do know is that it is not a tense. However, it has been called a tense for centuries. The discrepancy is because the meaning of the word "tense" has shifted, as Comrie makes clear if you read more than that one line.

I think the violent opposition to the use of modern English terminology is due to being used to the jargon of a particular field. That's understandable. Many of our readers will have the same background. However, I don't see where the current version is unreasonable on those grounds: it explains what the aorist is using modern linguistic terminology, then notes the traditional wording. Most of the article simply uses "aorist" without choosing either. — kwami (talk) 23:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not "modern English terminology"; it's the terminology of some linguists, who appear to have ceased to study languages. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You apparently know nothing of the subject, or you wouldn't make such a statement. The linguist who has set the standard for aspectual terminology appears to have ceased to study languages, because you don't like the choice of restricting "tense" to points on a timeline? Your source of modern linguistic terminology is the OED, the wording of which dates to 1888? — kwami (talk) 18:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I shall make clear that I am citing the Second Edition, of 1989. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Unintended edit

Just so everyone knows, I didn't mean to make this edit: . I hadn't even noticed that I had made it until now. I'm confused as to how I could have made the edit, actually; I was on an iPod touch at the time, and never had an editing window open. Apologies for any inconvenience caused. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No problem. I do stuff like that all the time. (Usually in the wee hours of the morning.) — kwami (talk) 00:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Hermeneutics

This is a problematical section in this article since it is tied to using a particular Greek aspect in a particular method (evangelical Christian) of argumentation. I think that the article should stand or fall on its grammatical description of aorist and leave its use in Christian evangelization to other web sites. --Taivo (talk) 03:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, it is under the Greek section. Personally, I imagine quite a few people might come here specifically for this question. I don't know about the "hermeneutics" links (I haven't followed them to read those articles), but quite a few of the refs I dug up were concerned about bad translations of the NT stemming from poor understanding of the aorist, such as translating future events with the past tense. I don't think a summary is undue. — kwami (talk) 07:24, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Mentioning the differences between Classical Greek and Koine - which includes not using textbooks on Koine to source unqualified statements about "Greek" - would help. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Past Simple

The aorist is used in a way we associate in the English language with the past simple (also known unofficially as 'finished past'). I expected to see some mention of the 'past simple' in this rather demanding article. Politis (talk) 22:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

It isn't, really. About 20% of the time it's present. It may be translated as past because English does not have an aorist. We could expand the hermeneutics section, explaining the difficulties in translation. (Campbell give a verse of the NRSV of the NT in which the aorist was translated as past tense, when it only makes sense as the future.) — kwami (talk) 23:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Politis is talking about Demotic, his native tongue; a section on it should say what used to be crammed into the intro, that in Demotic it does have preterite force. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:09, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Old versus New

The above differences of opinion clearly relate to differences between new and old grammars. The sensible thing to do is make room for both. I've seen arguments like this before as a school teacher - a new English grammar was introduced that was supposed to be more user-friendly but it never found favour among teachers. By the time it was finally abandoned, teachers had got out of the habit of teaching the old grammar as well and now it is rare for any grammar to be taught at all. The case is even more curious with ancient Greek. My Greek grammar was published in 1879 but it works just fine because the language it describes died long before that. There is no reason to abandon it - unless there is a militant dogmatism abroad that compells me to adopt new ways. Is this a militant article or can we have a difference of opinion? Amphitryoniades (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not (necessarily) a difference of grammatical analysis, just an evolution of terminology. We need to write articles for a general audience, and that means general terminology. Traditional terminology should of course be included, but we need to be clear which we are using when. Since all the interlinked articles use modern terms, this article will only be compatible with them if it also uses modern terms. It's not much different from giving distances in km rather than in stadia. — kwami (talk) 01:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Kwami. His analogy of km versus stadia is quite apt. The distance is the same, but our terminology must match modern usage and the articles that this one links to. "Tense" doesn't mean the same thing it meant 100 years ago just as "computer" is no longer someone like Uriah Heep. --Taivo (talk) 02:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies! A couple more points: First, 'modern terms' suggests we are dealing with a recent attempt to rationalize grammar and this invites the question - who is the authority or authorities behind this attempt? I'm wondering if we are dealing with just an individual, a small group of grammarians, an education department somewhere or a wide international movement. I notice that there are citation needed tags all over the articles covering these new terms (though I am not saying the tags are warranted, merely that they arouse suspicions). Second, I don't agree that this article has been written for the 'general audience'. The general audience is more likely to be people familiar with a few traditional grammatical concepts. I'm as smart as the next person but when I first read this article my response mirrored that of Berty Wooster after Jeeves has tried to explain something - "The brain seems to flicker and I rather miss the gist." I don't think I'm the only Wooster here. The general audience is largely an assembly of Woosters. Amphitryoniades (talk) 02:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

These terms are all very standard in the linguistic community, there's nothing at all fringe about them. Many of these articles were written back a few years ago when the Misplaced Pages requirements to footnote everything were not in place. Many articles were written without references at all. It is still a long process to backfill footnoting for these articles. But kwami and I have read many, if not most, of these other articles and there's nothing controversial at all about them or the terminology. But we have to use the correct terminology, with a few digressions for those who may not be as familiar with it. We cannot write these articles with imprecise terminology or else we will cease to be an encyclopedia. Read an Encyclopedia Britannica article in a field that you don't know and you will see just as many unfamiliar words. We write for a "general audience", but we don't write down to that audience. We must use the correct technical terminology. If they don't know what a term means, then they can click on the wikilink to learn more. --Taivo (talk) 03:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure these terms are standard in the linguistic community. However, that's not the only community that uses these terms—if you step into any of the beginning Greek classes that are starting up in colleges all across the U.S. this week, you'll find uses of "aorist" and "tense" that differ from what you're calling the "correct terminology". So it's not clear to me why you can claim this is the correct terminology—rather, what the article needs to make clear is that terminology differs depending on context. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Grammar is the realm of linguistics, just as the periodic table is the realm of chemistry, and atomic structure is the realm of physics. Would you ever suggest that imprecise terminology be used in describing the structure of the atom? No. When we teach beginners something, it is not uncommon to use imprecise language, like comparing the "orbits" of the electrons around the nucleus to the orbits of the planets around the sun. But this is not appropriate for an adult encyclopedia. Electrons exist in energy states around the nucleus, not in orbits like the planets. So, too, based on traditional teaching methods and comparing other languages to English structure, it is usual for language teachers to teach "tenses" to children and learners in order to tie the unfamiliar to something familiar (just as using the orbits of the planets ties the unfamiliar structure of the atom to something more familiar). That doesn't make them tenses any more than the analogy of the solar system makes the structure of the atom like the solar system. As an encyclopedia, we have a responsibility to describe things accurately and not to just tie the unfamiliar to the familiar. Bats are not birds or mice with wings, electrons are not planets, the aorist is not a tense. We are not writing a beginning Greek grammar, we are writing an adult encyclopedia. This article, especially, is not a compendium of the Greek aorist, but of the Indo-European aorist. While the sections on Sanskrit, Bulgarian, and Proto-Indo-European are still in early stages of development, it is absolutely necessary to use precise terminology in comparing these different languages. Without using precise terminology, describing and comparing these aorist aspects becomes impossible. --Taivo (talk) 05:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't to Taivo; if this were consensus in theoretical linguistics as a whole, we should explain it here by saying that they do things differently. We are optimized for laymen, not for specialists. But this is as yet unsupported; several linguistic sources are inconsistent with Taivo's position. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There are quite a few fields where attempts at standardization have not been fully implemented. The IPA is the international phonetic alphabet, yet many US sources (though fewer each year) continue to use a hybrid Americanist system (just as NASA until just a couple years ago continued to use Imperial rather than metric), and Uralic-language scholars might still use a idiosyncratic system for Uralic. You will find these things on WP, because they're used by our sources, but they need to be presented in a way that is comprehensible to the reader who is only familiar with the international standard. Likewise, our grammar articles may include terms like 'preterite' and 'aorist' which are idiosyncratic to specific traditions. The problem with that is that the reader often has no clue what they are supposed to mean. If a (non-Greek) grammar article uses "aorist", does that mean past perfective, as in Lezgian? Or does it mean gnomic, as in Swahili? The past few days, as I redirected articles from "perfect aspect" to "perfect (grammar)", I realized that a fair number of grammar articles didn't actually mean perfect, but perfective (aorist), but since they didn't define their terms, you wouldn't be able to figure that out without outside knowledge. This can be a severe problem; the solution IMO is to always attempt to clearly define your terms, or to link to a centralised article that gives a standardized account. That's what we need here. If the situation were more complex, we might want a table correlating the trad terms of Greek scholarship with general linguistics, but the correlation is pretty straightforward (aspect is subcat of tense in the former but not the latter). — kwami (talk) 06:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Since Taivo mentioned encyclopaedic treatments of the atom as an example of what you are trying to do here, I suggest you actually look at the article Atom. It is a whole lot more user-friendly than this article even though atomic theory is a whole lot more complex than the concept of the aorist. When I read the intro there, I want to keep reading. When I read the intro here, I want to find a hole somewhere to hide in. Amphitryoniades (talk) 08:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The writing style is what you are noting, Amphitryoniades, not an imprecision of technical terminology or the use of archaic technical terminology. We may need to polish the writing, but we don't need to switch to archaic and incorrect terminology used only in primary teaching. --Taivo (talk) 12:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

As long as Taivo doesn't address this apparently flagrant contradiction (maybe it's somewhere in all this mess, but I don't see it), I have trouble taking his/her contributions to the controversy seriously. (I think Akhilleus' point, that, whoever claims empery over grammar in general, the classical philologists have a legitimate claim to analyze Greek grammar, is also true, but quite possibly rendered unnecessary by this larger issue, that linguists like Comrie and Rijksbaron are so far from Taivo's vehement position that apparently they "fail to understand the fundamental linguistics.") Comrie and Rijksbaron are good reliable sources on aspect and Greek grammar, right? Wareh (talk) 13:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

This has been addressed before. I started a comparison of scholars who have concluded the aorist was aspect or aspect+tense vs those who concluded it was just tense. I got to a dozen of the former before losing interest. No-one has been able to come up with an example of the latter. Comrie discusses the aorist as a perfective. Within that context, he says that it is primarily past tense: that is, a perfective past. As soon as I find my copy, I'll post the quote in its context. — kwami (talk) 18:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, here we go. It's amazing what I can lose in plain sight.

Comrie, Aspect, p. 12. This is in §0.3 Terminology, in the second paragraph, which covers how the term 'perfective' is to be used in the book:

In place of the term 'perfective' some linguists use the term 'aoristic'; in the traditional grammatical terminologies of some languages, however, the term 'aorist' is restricted to perfectivity in the past tense (e.g. Bulgarian, Georgian, also some writers on Spanish), and to avoid this possible confusion the term has not been used as part of the general linguistic terminology here.

The quote above is from the footnote.

(Personally, I wish he had decided on "aoristic", to avoid the more serious confusion with "perfect".)

If Comrie did mean simply that the Ancient Greek aorist is simply past tense, which would disagree with all of our other sources, we could add that as another analysis of the aorist indicative in Ancient Greek. However, on p 19 he discusses how languages use perfective forms with ingressive meaning, especially with stative verbs, and he says,

In Ancient Greek, for instance, the Aorist (perfective past) of the verb Basileúō 'I reign' can refer to a complete reign, as in ebasíleusa déka étē 'I reigned for ten years, had a reign of ten years', but it can also refer to the start of the reign, i.e. ebasíleusa 'I became king, ascended the throne' versus Imperfect (imperfective past) ebasíleuon 'I was king'.

He then compares this with the Spanish "Simple Past (perfective past)". — kwami (talk) 19:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you're missing two important points. (1) The substantial disagreement seems to be between the two alternatives "aspect only" vs. "aspect+tense," but you seem to lump those together and create an alternative (tense only, nothing to do with aspect) that I don't think anyone here believes. (2) "If Comrie did mean simply that the Ancient Greek aorist is simply past tense..." misses the point, because he didn't mean that, and I don't think anyone else has misunderstood him in that way: rather, he believed (correctly) that the aorist indicative was primarily a past tense. So I don't believe he's "disagree with all of our other sources"; rather, he's simply taken enough trouble to arrive at an understanding complete enough that he doesn't over-simplify to the point of discarding things understood by linguists who have taken enough trouble to understand the particularities of the aorist in Ancient Greek (which is why he agrees with a more specialized-in-Gk. linguist such as Rijksbaron). Wareh (talk) 19:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, then we agree with each other.

I haven't missed those points. In fact, I've said both myself, apart from no-one thinking the aorist is a tense: Isn't that what this debate is about? (Septentrionalis insists that it is a tense, and that the linguists who say otherwise "appear to have ceased to study languages.")

Taivo correctly stated that the aorist is not a tense, given the current definition of "tense", which you appear to subscribe to. He has apparently accepted the analysis of the Ancient Greek aorist as a pure aspect, which is only supported in some of our sources. I don't know which is correct. We have numerous RSs that it is perfective past, but also very detailed analyses which purport to demonstrate that that characterization is inaccurate. Taivo has also characterized the phrase "aorist tense" as a simplification for pedagogy, whereas I assume that it's due to a change in the meaning of the word "tense". Regardless, given your and my (and Taivo's) understanding of the word "tense", the phrase "aorist tense" is not an accurate characterisation.

Rijksbaron, BTW, says "the value is not part of the meaning of the aorist indicative; it is, rather, in Gricean terms, a conversational implicature, be it a very strong one." — kwami (talk) 19:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

As the OED quotes from Lyons: The ‘tense-system’ may be set out in terms of the two dimensions of time and aspect. We can avoid the word tense if the modern linguistic theorists have rendered it useless; but we may not use it clean contrary to its two-millennial proper sense without confusing our readers with gibberish. To fail to call the natural classifications of synthetic Indo-European languages "tenses" is stupid enough; to deny what any school-boy knows is pedantry. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

A "tense-system" is not the same thing as a "tense", and Lyons even put it in scare quotes!

The term is far from useless. Also, we go by RSs; you may dislike them, but you don't get to override them. "Gibberish" is not defined as "words which Septentrionalis dislikes".

What we are arguing against is an attempt to impose a misleading term across the article. My point throughout has been that we can simply say "aorist" without imposing one convention or the other. — kwami (talk) 20:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Not so far you're not. You are imposing Comrie's invention - apparently against his text - throughout the article. Please stop. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the lit yourself before asking me to stop respecting it. — kwami (talk) 21:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Dubious text

The aorist describes a perfective aspect of the verb in the grammatical tradition of Ancient Greek and in languages whose description has been influenced by that tradition

• This is not true. The Ancient Greek aorist is a formal category, the first and second aorist. These usually have an aspect, but tended to lose it as the language evolved; but where the aorist - as often - is used as an unmarked verb form, or - as sometimes - as interchangeable with the imperfect, it is still an aorist.
• It is not supported by the page given, which is Timothy Shopen, Language Typology and Syntactic Description: Grammatical categories and the lexicon, 2nd ed., Cambridge University Press, 2007, ISBN 0521588553, p. 302 Page 302 doesn't mention Greek - and the book as a whole does not support so strong a statement.
• Since the actual source is Timberlake's paper, a contribution to Shopen's book, it is miscited. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Doubly miscited; this is the third volume of a set, which should be indicated. This is a symptom of Research by Google. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

It is common to to use grammatical terms for formal categories. That's typically part of applying the term to a specific language, part of the common entanglement of syntax and morphology. Although the term started out as Greek, it has since been applied to other languages, first to forms in Sanskrit and pIE which were thought to be cognate with the Greek aorist, then to forms in languages such as Bulgarian, Lezgian, and Georgian which have similar aspectual distinctions, then to unmarked verb forms in other languages, such as Turkish and Swahili, which are not very similar to the Greek aorist. The term "aorist", therefore, is more than just the Greek aorist. I'm sure you can reword the offending line to capture all of this.

As for the aorist being unmarked, that doesn't make it neutral. In English singular number is unmarked, but that doesn't mean that it's not specific for number. There is a lot of debate in the lit over much semantic force the aorist has (Comrie appears to think it did not have much perfective force, though he goes into no detail, Campbell that it did not have much past-tense force), but that's a discussion specifically for different stages of Greek. — kwami (talk) 18:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You're not applying "aorist" to Greek; you are attempting - and failing - to generalize aorist from Greek. You are also attempting to generalize the use of "tense" by claiming it applies only to the sort of temporal distinctions Latin and English make, which is anglocentrism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Neither are my generalization, and the later is not anglocentric: Comrie is a Slavicist, and much of his approach to aspectual terminology was to harmonize Slavic traditions with traditions from the rest of the world. Again, what I'm hearing from you is, "this isn't how I learned it, so it must be nonsense, even though I know nothing about it". — kwami (talk) 20:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The sentence quoted makes claims about Greek (explicitly) and Sanskrit (implicitly); both are false.

More seriously, you are writing about a subject with a two-millennia old tradition, and imposing upon it a systematization that would make most Indo-European verb forms "not tenses". That is not consensus of the scholarship; it is not what the scholars you cite actually say; and it is not useful for the reader. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

clarity of language

This is an extraordinary heat generated from trying to clarify a technical term. Several interlocutors new to the discussion have attempted to bring in some fresh perspectives, and they've been pretty briskly stamped on. I rather agree with Amphitryoniades that a way to resolve this is to think of who's most likely to be coming to the article — and that would be neither professional linguists nor ancient Greek specialists researching their next article on the aorist in Pindar, who are unlikely to use WP as a source.

For instance, the first sentence states "The aorist describes (?) a perfective aspect of the verb." What does "describe" mean here? How does a verb form describe anything? Do we mean "represents", "expresses," something like that? And let's say the Mythical User Most Likely to Come Here (MUMLCH) clicks on the blue link because she doesn't know what "perfective aspect" means. The MUMLCH learns that "the perfective aspect … sometimes called the aorist, is an aspect that exists in many languages." So the aorist is the perfective aspect, and the perfective aspect is the aorist. There is no link to grammatical aspect in the lede, nor to grammatical tense, nor are the meanings of those terms brought to bear in sorting out how "aorist" is used and why common usage is not technically accurate. The MUMLCH who doesn't already fully grasp the difference between aspect and tense should, upon reading the introductory section on "aorist", have a better understanding of all three through the example of the aorist. The article shouldn't be written for people already in full command of all relevant terms. This is not dumbing down; it's a matter of communicating a difficult concept clearly to the readers for which it is intended. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, I agree with Amphitryoniades that the introductory section of Atom is a fine example of readability. I feel included as a reader there without having to be a physicist. Technical terms are used luminously, not as barriers to keep out the uninitiated. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Cynwolfe for your contribution. Those are good points and a good point of view. I made a couple of changes to the introductory paragraph to clarify these points. --Taivo (talk) 17:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it takes skill to retain the precision of technical terms while making them accessible to the naive reader. More than I have. — kwami (talk) 18:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually Cynwolfe has a valid general point, which applies equally to all too many mathematical articles. Advanced students write at the level of abstraction useful to them - or, all too often, the one beyond that - whether or not it is appropriate to the subject matter or the audience. By cutting back to observables, we can provide a text generally intelligible and not tendentious; if "not a grammatical tense" means only "not asserting a time" in the jargon, we can say so. I shall rewrite accordingly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he does have a good point. However, although you simplified the language, you made it very unclear: You said the aorist indicates "action done at a given time", which is factually incorrect, and from your examples a reader would likely conclude that it is past tense, which Wareh at least thought we all agreed it was not; Campbell even paraphrases Hewson and Bubenik as saying that "the aorist must never be considered as a past tense". Cynwolfe proposed that we simplify without dumbing things down. — kwami (talk) 20:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The OED ends by comparing it to the English simple past; but that is not all. What part of "the Greek aorist does not imply that the action took place in the past" did you fail to understand? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

If the OED text says, "the Greek aorist does not imply that the action took place in the past" then it is, ipso facto, an aspect and not a tense. Tenses only deal with time. --Taivo (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Stop spreading the neologistic usage of a particular subfield as though it applied everywhere. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Uh, PMAnderson, you are correct, correct linguistic terminology does not apply to chemistry or physics. But it does apply to grammatical discussions such as this one. --Taivo (talk) 22:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

• What the OED says, quoted above, is One of the past tenses of the Greek verb, which takes its name from its denoting a simple past occurrence, with none of the limitations as to completion, continuance, etc., which belong to the other past tenses. It corresponds to the simple past tense in English, as ‘he died.’
• Observe the use of "tense", as common English usage; observe the repeated use of "past"; and observe that although this text and the text of the proposed revision are both quoted on this page, Taivo has mistaken the one for the other. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Simple language

Before it is reverted again, I quote the proposed simplification here:

The aorist (abbreviated AOR, Template:Pron-en, from the Template:Lang-el, aóristos, "without boundaries, indeterminate") referred originally to certain forms of the Ancient Greek verb. By extension, it is used of related forms in other Indo-European languages and to forms of similar function in other languages, Indo-European or not; since many related Indo-European forms, especially those in Sanskrit, have similar force, it is reasonable to conjecture that it had the same meaning in the parent speech.

The principal uses of the aorist refer to action done at a given time, rather than to continuous or completed action, much the same distinction as English "I climbed" against "I was climbing" or "I had climbed"; Greek has other special forms for those, whereas the aorist is unmarked. Unlike "I climbed", the Greek aorist does not imply that the action took place in the past, although most uses of the aorist do refer to past action. In describing non-Indo-European languages, the word "aorist" has been used to mean various unmarked forms of the verb, such as the gnomic present in Turkish and Swahili.

Since "aorist" is both a formal description - hence its application to Demotic - and a generalized term for various unmarked verb forms (generalizing either on aspect, or the gnomic aorist, at least), I doubt anything more specific can be said in the intro. We can add more jargon, of course, but that won't add to specificity, merely to word-length. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:Bold, you are now edit warring. Please stop.

You're right, I missed that sentence, which does help. However, you explanation is still wrong: the aorist does not principally "refer to an action done at a given time", according to all of the sources I have read. Rijksbaron says that the aorist does imply past tense, or most specifically that past tense is an implicature of the aorist. And I can't believe that your source is the OED! Your lede is dumbed down, not just simplified: you never say what the aorist actually is, and most people coming here probably want to know what it is.

As for being more specific, the aorist is generally used for PFV.PST in various languages. There are relatively few authors which use it otherwise, and when they do, reviewers often complain that this is an unclear/confusing/inappropriate use of the term. That's why we don't have a section on Swahili & Turkish; we could probably relegate them to a footnote. — kwami (talk) 21:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

What sources? If you have read them, you have not understood them; if they said what you claim they do, they would not be reliable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The above is what I came up with for a rewrite. (The pronunciation, abbreviation, and refs can be added in.) I've replaced "tense" with "time" to avoid controversy. — Eru·tuon 21:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

That's a lot better. A couple points, however: I would link to perfective aspect up front, as we all agree that is correct, rather than just for Ancient Greek, and I think we should note that it is specifically past tense (PFV.PST) for most of those other languages, including Modern Greek. — kwami (talk) 21:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Any definition of the aorist that says "the principal uses of the aorist refer to action done at a given time" is wrong. The principal use of the aorist is as a contrast to the imperfect (multiple quotes are already present in the article). This is an aspectual distinction. Usage of the aorist is focused on the action being bounded or punctual, and any "past" meaning is purely implicational and not the primary meaning. And the OED is not the authority on the aorist, aspect versus tense, Greek grammar, etc. While you may be reading the second edition of the OED, the wording you cite is probably a retention from the first edition of 1888. --Taivo (talk) 21:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Conjecture heaped upon falsehood; not that it would matter if the OED decided that they were right the first time. The corpus of Ancient Greek hasn't changed much since 1888. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Any version which denies that the aorist usually applies to past time is wrong; the reason it's an "aspect" (or, more correctly, has an aspect) is that it doesn't have to. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand what aspect means and, thus, are not contributing any positive to this discussion. I'll make it simple since your only source appears to be the OED. Aorist is an aspect. As an aspect, it marks an act as a single point (not specifying the "size" of that point). It bounds that act. In the indicative that act has been completed. Since the only logical time for an act to have been completed is in the past, then "past" is part of the implied meaning, although that is not always the case. The aorist aspect, as a completed aspect, can't help but refer to something in past time, but the time marking is only implied. Thus, aorist is a completed/perfective aspect that in the indicative implies past time. It's not a tense. --Taivo (talk) 21:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The aorist aspect, as a completed aspect, can't help but refer to something in past time, would also demonstrate that future perfects always refered to events completed in the past. But that does not follow, as Rijksbaron $12 would show Taivo; section 8.3.3 on the jussive aorist shows an aorist dealing only with the present and near future. I will attempt to ignore his falsehoods, his inventions, and his personal attacks; but this cries out for answer. I would be glad to see him back at this discussion when he has learned a synthetizing language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for continuing to issue personal attacks, PMAnderson, keep crawling deeper into that gutter you've crawled in. "Future perfect" can perfectly well be an event in the future, because "perfect" doesn't relate something to the present, but relates the event to one event that precedes another. "When I will have eaten, I will speak". You keep taking comments out of context. In the context of the preceding discussion the issue was clearly one of dealing with the indicative. Keeping twisting words, PMAnderson, and issuing those personal attacks. --Taivo (talk) 20:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

So can the aorist; the gnomic aorist is timeless. See also the Alcestis, line 386, with an aorist in apodosi, and a future protasis. The complete, or in this case, instantaneous, effect will take place in the future, if the cause does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

• You are engaging in neologism; you are also quoting a discussion of the New Testament as though it applied to all Greek. Please stop this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, PMAnderson, if correct technical nomenclature is not part of your world. This article is not solely about Attic Greek. It's about "aorist". --Taivo (talk) 22:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

But it ought to be about the primary sense of aorist; and where it discusses Greek, it should not express falsehoods and absurdities. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, PMAnderson, we agree, and the primary sense of the aorist is completion as an aspect. I don't get my knowledge of Greek from the OED, by the way. Perhaps you should find another reference. --Taivo (talk) 03:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Where do you get your knowledge of Greek from? Google? Much of the Greek section is simply wrong in anybody's language; it takes generalizations from linguists discussing something else as though they were absolute and unqualified facts. I have cited the OED solely for English usage; writing this English wikipedia in English (by which we mean the language "understanded of the people"). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I had several years of Greek in college including Koine, Septuagint and Classical so I find your reliance on OED to be humorous for someone who wants their arguments taken seriously. I find Cynwolfe's discussion far more enlightened and helpful than your blind insistence on ignoring linguistic accuracy and relying instead on OED's 1888 definition. --Taivo (talk) 15:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe you; no one who had done so would distinguish the Septuagint, which is in the language of its time, from Koine. Someone who had passed any course in Greek grammar might assert, as Taivo has done, that the conventional meaning of "tense" doesn't exist, or should be ignored; nobody who had passed such a course would assert that "aorist tense" applies only to the indicative, as the article now does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

So, too, I don't believe that you've had any Greek training other than reading definitions in the OED. Any person who has spent ten minutes looking at the details of the evolution of Greek from 500 BCE to 100 CE knows that there are differences between the Koine of the Septuagint and the Koine of the New Testament. There are even textbooks specifically focused on the Greek of the Septuagint and called "Septuagint Greek" or "Greek of the Septuagint" or some such. Since the term "Koine" is quite often focused on the New Testament and Church Fathers, "Septuagint" is a common way to distinguish that Greek from later koines. Perhaps you should focus on the fact that your understanding of Greek grammar is not based on linguistic principles, but on reciting your beginner's level paradigms without understanding the underlying science that focuses on the issue. --Taivo (talk) 18:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Real scholars do not limit Koine to Judeo-Christian texts.

Taivo is defending nonsense with worse nonsense: the differences between, say, the Gospel according to John and his Revelation are larger than any differences between the hypothetical averages of the New Testament and the Septuagint. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:07, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Perhaps you should tell the authors of texts labelled "Septuagint Greek" that they don't have a legitimate field of study. I never said that the New Testament was a unified style of Greek, you are reading that into my comments. I said that the language of the Septuagint can be studied separately from later koines (plural) and that it is possible to have a Greek course focused completely on that particular koine. You're just sounding more and more bitter and ill-informed by your comments on my Greek coursework. I doubt that you have had any similar level of study in the language, especially when your main cited source is the OED. --Taivo (talk) 19:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Since I know what I've read, and it ranges from Homer to the Apocrypha, I don't need to care what Taivo thinks; that's the problem with claiming credentials on Misplaced Pages.

"Septuagint Greek" is certainly a subject; it will differ from "New Testament Greek" in the examples and reading lessons. Both have the endemic problem that trots are too easy to come by. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, PMAnderson, that's the problem with making personal attacks as you did above. --Taivo (talk) 20:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't make any attack; I said I didn't believe you - and your claims since have not convinced me otherwise. Vanity posts are a bad idea. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

LOL @ "vanity post". If you recall, you asked, "Where do you get your knowledge of Greek from? Google?" I simply answered your question. But I'm done with dealing with your personal attacks. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated no knowledge of Greek beyond the OED, so I guess we're even. --Taivo (talk) 21:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

And I still see no evidence of any actual knowledge of Greek. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The feeling is mutual, I assure you. --Taivo (talk) 23:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

tense and aspect

I thought the rewrite was more accessible, and encourage Taivo to try again. I'd agree with K., however, that the first sentence had become too imprecise when it said "certain forms". The article is organized badly, with modern Bulgarian stuck between ancient Greek and Sanskrit (a very meager section), no mention of Phrygian, and the PIE horse following the cart in the rear. In terms of historical linguistics, this makes no sense. In terms of how ancient Greek is taught to students, it's muddled and confusing. The aorist is one of the principal parts of a verb; the stem itself has the quality of aspect, and "tense" comes into play depending on how it's conjugated, since it's in the indicative with the augment that it refers to the past. For a Latin student coming to Greek, it's grasping the difference between the aorist indicative and the perfect indicative that's the trick, which was presented to me as aspectual: "I died" vs. "I am dead" as described here also. The intro needs to deal with both "aspect" and "tense" and why (at least as far as the study and comprehension of ancient Greek goes) the two are difficult to disentangle. But for me the way to do this is to explain the aorist as an aspectual stem characteristic of PIE verbs, and functionally a tense in Greek when conjugated in the indicative with the temporal augment. Therefore, elementary Greek grammar books usually refer to the aorist as one of the tenses. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Cynwolfe, I'll give it another shot this evening (I don't have time for the next few hours). I'll work on incorporating your comments on improving readability. --Taivo (talk) 22:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a sound approach, Cynwolfe, and you mention several critical details which are currently missing. My only reservation is in calling it a tense because of the past augment; my understanding is that the augment is typically fused, and it is this fused form which is addressed as the aorist indicative in our sources, including those sources which argue that past time is only an implicature. My understanding is that it is called a "tense" because this is part of the tradition of calling all grammatical encodings of time "tense", which I personally find intuitive but which conflicts with the modern treatment of 'tense' and aspect as independent parameters in encoding time. — kwami (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't conflict seriously; this is why some authors speak of a "tense" - the morphological entity - as "having aspect". But we should use, or at least recognize, the common sense of "tense", while providing links to the theoretical articles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Whether the augment is fused depends on the dialect of Greek; there are dialects where there is none

I would like to see the argument against using the intuitive and common meaning of "tense" in an article addressed to the general reader made explicitly. This is probably the chief source of the unintelligibility of the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

We're not going to spend much time calling it a tense or noting that it's not a tense, so that has little to do with the clarity of the article. That's also what we have links for. We can certainly work on a way to do that that is clear both to readers who think of "tense systems" as being tense, and to those who think of only points on a timeline as being tense. That's a minor issue overall. — kwami (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it ought to be minor; this is one reason I used certain forms, to avoid the word. But we should be clear that we are using "tense" in two senses, and what they are. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

If I may, Kwami may be missing only one slight point in what I'm trying to say (emphasis on 'trying,' since I have a hellacious headache at the moment). The PIE aorist is an aspectual stem, as far I understand it at my rather rudimentary level; it is retained in Sanskrit, ancient Greek, evidently Phrygian, and presumably since Bulgarian is an IE language it inherited the aorist from a Slavic ancestor. Conjugated with a temporal augment in the indicative and given personal endings, the Greek aorist becomes functionally a "tense" as the word is commonly used in language classes, and is therefore treated in elementary grammar books as one of the seven tenses. This is demonstrably so. (In my link above, the second page gets into how usage of the aorist and the perfect grows indistinct.) Because a significant number of the users who would look up "aorist" would be coming here having seen it referred to as a "tense," IMHO it's important to explain why. Explaining this conventional usage of the word "tense" is not to endorse it as correct in the context of scientific linguistics. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I would agree with that. All of the combinations of tense and aspect are called "tense" in probably most treatments of Greek, just as they are for many treatments of English. The Spanish preterit is also commonly called a "tense". I rather wish the word "tense" hadn't been chosen for timeline marking, since it's so convenient to use it as Septentrionalis would prefer. — kwami (talk) 01:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

There's a discussion in a paper by Issatchenko on JSTOR of the aorist in Old Russian, which had the aorist from the earliest times, and lost it about 1600, when it begins being misused in the same way the Jacobean verb-forms are in modern English. The form quoted is ězdāxu "they rode", which looks like a zero-grade stem form with augment. The same paper mentions the Rumanian aorist (a "new past tense", formed after the break-up of Latin; another example of "aorist" as a functional category - and a past tense). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Assuming that by "new past tense" they mean past tense. — kwami (talk) 01:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe so; it's one of a string of examples of similar function, which include the Spanish preterite, as it happens. But Romanian is not one of my languages, and this is chiefly a reminder that we may need a sentence on it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The Spanish preterite is not a simple past tense either, but perfective past. In fact, some have called it "aorist"! — kwami (talk) 19:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

As for the introductory section, it should be written according to WP:LEDE: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies." So our elementary Greek student should feel the dawn starting to break as she reads these first two or three paragraphs, and not be more confused than when coming to the article. This must surely include an explanation of why she's seen "aorist" referred to as a tense. Many years have passed since I learned Greek, and if Greek textbooks no longer use the term "tense," the need to explain it lessens but doesn't disappear, given the presence of so many classic Greek grammars online that use the word. The rest of the article in my view should be presented historically, because I don't see how to make sense of "aspectual stem" without explaining this as a PIE concept, and noting the languages that retained the aorist. Mention should be made of Latin losing it, or why not all ancient IE languages had it. The section on Sanskrit could be better. The section on ancient Greek needs to make sense to your average low-level classics prof teaching future seminarians how to conjugate verbs. And to the future seminarians. Without causing linguists to slam their espresso cups indignantly. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

This by Cynwolfe seems a sensible program; but I do not see that aorist tense is in fact disappearing from textbooks of Greek, or other languages; it is some forty times more common than "aorist aspect" - and some books, quite sensibly, use both, one for the morphology, the other for the meaning. I will be consulting Rijksbaron shortly; he appears to be the most recent general book on Greek syntax in English. If this distracts from a discussion of Cynwolfe's proposal, I will make it a subsection. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is very commonly used in reference to Greek. However, it is inappropriate to simply call it a "tense" when if the reader looks up what a "tense" is, he comes up w s.t. contradictory to what the aorist is; we also have several Greek-studies sources which either put "tense" in scare quotes or are otherwise careful to clarify that it isn't really a tense. — kwami (talk) 01:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

That's a problem with the tense article, not with this one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

That's a problem with using words for contradictory meanings. We can't just call a form a "perfect" because that's the tradition for some language, when the "perfect" of that language is not a perfect. We can call it the "perfect", and explain that it isn't perfect but simply past tense, or we can just call it "past tense". — kwami (talk) 01:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the problem might be that we aren't allowed by WP rules to decide the matter. We can only describe and explain the materials that are out there in the public eye, in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE.. That is why we must explain that in elementary Greek grammar books the aorist stem conjugated with personal endings and with the temporal prefix is given as one of the seven tenses. This is a separate matter from what "tense" really is, or whether that's the correct term, which requires its own linguistic explanation. Since the only languages treated in this article are Indo-European, I've proposed that the solution (after the introductory section) would be to present the (P)IE aorist as a verbal stem that expresses aspect, and proceed from there to individual languages. The purpose of the article is to explain the term "aorist" so that someone encountering it knows what's meant in whatever likely context it's used. (Let me add as trivia the amazing fact that the word "aorist" appears sporadically in the New York Times archives up through about 1922, after which time Greek grammar books — of Gleason's primer it is noted "The author admits that there is no workless Greek book, even in this age of horseless carriages and wireless telegraphy; to attain the little knowledge requisite to carry on the study of Greek in school or college careful attention, common sense, and some study are necessary" — cease to be noticed, and with them and the ideal of a classical education as aspirational the aorist vanishes. With two exceptions: an interview with I.F. Stone in 1978, and a 1984 review in which Jorie Graham chastises Rachel Hadas for "intellectualized posturing" in a poem: remain / aorist, dear icon, / precious as captured time. Nor can I resist revisiting the 1904 review of Gleason's primer: "The second aorist, one of the stock bugaboos of the young explorer into this dead language, is met and vanquished within the first few lessons, instead of impending as a vague danger till the long-drawn-out development of the regular verb is finally passed, only to fall on the student with crushing force at last." ) Cynwolfe (talk) 14:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I like this approach. There are two complications:

1. The IE aorist-stem is only the first aorist; the second aorist in Greek and much of the aorist in Sanskrit is a reformulation of IE imperfects (see Buck). As Gildersleeve reminds me, the functions of the first and second aorist differ slightly.
2. If we're going to describe how "aorist" is used in English, we should have a section on cases like Romanian, and presumably Turkish, where some verb-form of similar function has been called aorist.

This can presumably be covered by a sentence of the shape "Aorist" has also been used for forms of similar function; Greek...second aorist; modern linguists have applied "aorist" to verb-forms in other languages (although it is entirely possible that Romanian "aorist" is native terminology devised by Phanariots, I suppose). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Since this article is about aorist in general, placing the Indo-European discussion first is a very good approach and should be implemented. Then, within the Greek section, the discussion about how this aspect fits within a system traditionally called the "tense system" is appropriate. Since, by reordering, we clearly shift the focus from Greek primarily to Indo-European, then the comment about how Greek teachers traditionally call this a "tense" can be minimized in the lead (as it is now) and referred to the Greek section with appropriate wikilinks to grammatical aspect and grammatical tense for the person who wants to know the difference. --Taivo (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

A proposal to impose a POV. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I just looked up "POV". It means "something that Septentionalis disagrees with". You have given no rational reason for your objections. — kwami (talk) 18:12, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Is that a claim that rational = "something Kwami agrees with"? Otherwise it is false. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding both PMA and K. Walking into this naively as I am, I don't see what's wrong with Taivo's outline, unless we too much minimize ancient Greek and its teaching, since I'm still inclined to think that ancient Greek primers are a likely path to the article. I'd reckon that at minimum a third of those coming to the article would be there because they're studying ancient Greek, and so it wouldn't be disproportionate if a third of the introduction were devoted to usage in relation to Greek, in keeping with the WP:LEDE instructions that "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic." Cynwolfe (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

As usual, your suggestions are sensible. — kwami (talk) 19:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Why not offer "aorist", "aorist tense", and "aorist aspect" as variations of the same term in the introductory paragraph, and explain the possible distinction between them later, as above? — Eru·tuon 19:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Fine, in principle. We would need to phrase it carefully; aorist aspect describes (one kind of) function; aorist tense describes morphology; and they are not exactly coterminous. We don't need to say that in the intro; but we do need to avoid saying anything actually false. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

That's not how the terms are used either, except in the Greek trad, and this article is more general than that. "Aorist stem" is the term for the morphological base.

In general, the aorist is not an aspect either. The better sources claim that only for Ancient Greek, but the term is more widely used for a conflation of tense and aspect. — kwami (talk) 19:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

"Except in the Greek tradition"; the living room is fine except where the elephant ran through it. Not to mention the Sanskrit tradition and Indo-European comparative linguistics. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

If Kwami holds that the term "aorist" is used as a conflation of tense and aspect, I'm left as puzzled as I was at the beginning about why this topic is proving to be so contentious. I would say that this is a problem of writing by committee, except that a committee might assign parts to be drafted or written by various members depending on expertise and interest, or might funnel ideas through a single person assigned to produce a draft. Why is the article locked down? I missed the discussion that led to a consensus on this action. My feeling is that everybody interested in the topic needs to start contributing positively to the article space, through actual writing and revision, not tags and deletion, and especially not reverts, all of which tend to make other contributors feel insulted. I don't see what can be accomplished through further debate on this talk page. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Because efforts to rephrase this were persistently reverted. Tags are at best an effort to defeat that tactic by embarrassing the reverters and drawing public attention - not likely here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware that any of us had anything directly to do with the lockdown.

The problem with the article appears to be that Sep does not wish it to reflect general linguistic terminology, whose legitimacy he denies, even though he appears (it's difficult to tell) to accept that the aorist is a conflation of tense and aspect.

But you're right, debate is getting us nowhere. We've all had our say, and it's not possible to compromise when you reject the legitimacy of the other POV. — kwami (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by conflation; the aorist has a number of uses, some of them diagonal to the tense-aspect mapping. If you mean nothing more specific than that, yes, I agree.

But I deny that this "general linguistic" terminiology is useful to the reader, or appropriate to the article, except as links. I would as soon write calculus in the language of category theory, or addition as an exercise in formal deductive calculus. Both have been done; but neither belongs in an encyclopedia. (Articles about them do.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Greek

This is, of course, my principal concern. The section is not only inaccurate; it is much too short. We should distinguish between the functions of the aorist in Epic, Attic, and Koine - since they differ - with sources applicable to each, not citing statements out of Koine textbooks as though they appplied to Homer. We may as well discuss the morphology of Demotic in the same place; I think the ancient dialects can be left to their several articles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, the aorist infinitive does convey time in indirect discourse. Wareh (talk) 17:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, sir. So it does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The same is true of the aorist optative and participle in indirect discourse. It's the case because all three represent an aorist indicative in direct discourse. But they convey time relative to the time of the main verb (i.e., more distant past under a past verb, past in reference to the future under a future verb). Does that fall under the definition of tense in linguistics, or aspect? — Eru·tuon 17:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

According to our article it does; one is absolute, the other relative, tense. I don't really feel impelled to look further. But this demonstrates another problem with "also called aorist tense"; it can be read either as an example of the technical sense of "tense" or as a belated acknowledgement of the traditional sense; and it's wrong either way. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, relative tense is still tense.

According to Campbell and others, the temporal reading is implied, not inherent in the aorist. According to other (but less specialized) accounts, the past tense is inherent. We have multiple refs that the aorist is not (only) a tense; the only ref that it is a tense is Sept's personal opinion. — kwami (talk) 18:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

And we were getting along so well. I do not claim - and do not believe - that the aorist is a "tense" in the theoretical sense; however, it is unquestionably one of the "tenses of Greek" (none of them, of course, without aspect) and is principally used of events in the past. Both can be cited to Gildersleeve, which I began with; his section on the aorist tense begins with that assertion. Septentrionalis

PMAnderson 18:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

If you now admit that the aorist is not a linguistically defined "tense", then what is your issue? The lead paragraph needs a mention that traditional grammars often call the aorist a tense (which it currently does), then we move on to a proper linguistic description that focuses on aorist as an aspect. --Taivo (talk) 18:41, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

If you now admit that the aorist is not a linguistically defined "tense". I reply as the Lacedaemonians did to Philip; If. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Um, "I do not claim - and do not believe - that the aorist is a "tense" in the theoretical sense". Do you deny you wrote those words? — kwami (talk) 19:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I deny that theoretical linguistics (especially any one school of theoretical linguistics, these days) = "linguistics". It seems hybris to confound one's textbook with a field; no wonder Taivo's expressions are so violent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

We're not talking about a textbook, but any of hundreds of linguistic texts, surveys, and journals which follow the typology laid out by Comrie in the 1970s. This includes NT Greek scholars who are careful to note that the aorist isn't actually a tense; in fact, Zerwick made this point as far back as 1963 in Biblical Greek, so it would seem that Comrie had plenty of company. — kwami (talk) 20:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I do not admit that the preferences of Taivo and Kwami are "linguistics"; they may be the textbooks they read most recently. They are inconsistent with the actual usage of scholarship on the Indo-European languages (for example, Roth's book on the "Mixed Aorists" in Homeric Greek (1990), which uses "tense" in the traditional sense), with the usage of dictionaries, and the reasonable expectations of our readership. We are not optimized for specialists (if either of these paedants be a specialist), but for lay readers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

"aorist tense"

As I review the subject I'm somewhat perplexed at the strength of objections to the use of "tense" in the article. I find that many books of the 1990s and 2000s use "aorist tense":

• Stump in Inflectional Morphology (CUP, 2001) distances himself from the phrase by putting it in scare quotes, which however is an indication that the phrase, though to be questioned, is commonly used and merits explanation;
  • Looks to me like the logical-positivist quotes which distinguish between properties and the names of properties, not scare quotes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
• Woodward in The Ancient Languages of Europe expresses a slight revulsion on p. 33 while turning around and using the phrase on pp. 36 and 67;
  • That's Woodard; the complete list of occasions is here; p. 33 does not link at the moment, but the scare quotes around tense are visible - but unrepeated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
• Clackson speaks of the "aorist tense stem" in the perennial Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction;
• the phrase "aorist tense" appears five times in Sanskrit Computational Linguistics, a 2009 publication that gathers work from two international symposia in 2007;
• twice in Semitic and Indo-European: Comparative Morphology, Syntax and Phonetics (2002);
• although Comrie doesn't use the phrase "aorist tense" in his Aspect textbook from the 1970s, two decades later it isn't shunned by Comrie and Corbett's The Slavonic Languages (Routledge, 1993 and reprinted 2003);
• Fanning in Verbal Aspect in New Testament Greek (Oxford, 1990, reprinted 2002) uses "aorist tense" no fewer than seven times while talking about aspect;
• Porter, Idioms of the Greek New Testament is excessively fond of it;
• Chapter 4 of Campbell's Verbal Aspect, the Indicative Mood, and Narrative: Soundings in the Greek of the New Testament is called "The Aorist Tense-form";
• in Corresponding Sense: Paul, Dialectic, and Gadamer, Pearson uses the phrase "aorist tense" even as he explicitly states that it does not convey anything to do with time.

This is the cause of my perplexity: the phrase “aorist tense,” particularly in regard to “aorist tense stem,” is used in contexts where awareness of aspect is keen. I’m not understanding why it’s problematic here to deal with this usage. These of course are only a few examples, and only represent the exact phrase "aorist tense," not passages where the aorist is treated in the context of "tense." I'm obviously not understanding the issues that are preventing the proper development of the article. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Several of those sources, such as Campbell, Porter, and Fanning, make it clear that the aorist is not a tense even while they continue the traditional use of the word tense. Many are written at a rather high level, not the introductory level appropriate for this article, and perhaps feel that they don't need to be more rigorous than that, given the high degree of background knowledge they expect from their readers. In light of how confusing it could be for us to say "the aorist tense is not a tense", I think we need to be careful how we use the term. — kwami (talk) 21:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

How about avoiding saying "the aorist tense is not a tense"; say "the aorist does not have to assert a time, past, present, or future"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

It might help if the opponents of "tense" as a morphological term would suggest a term they would prefer for these entities. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Could you explain what you mean by "tense as a morphological term"? Tense and aspect are grammaticalizations of semantic categories of time, and thus either morphological or syntactic. I'm not aware of anyone who uses different terms for morphological tense than for syntactic tense, unless you're speaking of aktionsart, but that involves derivational morphology and is therefore lexical, not grammatical.

If you mean the stem, then we can use "aorist stem", "perfect stem", "imperfect stem", just as several of the Greek texts quoted above do. — kwami (talk) 21:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I mean the class (or one of the classes) of verb-forms made from the stem, which is what "tense" meant until some linguistic gentlemen had a "better idea".Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

As Kwami said, "tense" is not a morphological term anyway. And, well, "aspect" is the appropriate term to use for aorist. I thought that was clear. --Taivo (talk) 07:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)\

That's your unsourced opinion; contradicted by the list of sources above - and by Rijksbaron. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:09, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any problems skimming through Modern Greek grammar, so perhaps that could be taken as a model, even if the forms aren't completely congruent. — kwami (talk) 07:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Not completely congruent? Not congruent at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

• Rijksbaron (2002 edition, p.1) identifies five "tense stems" including the aorist. Of these, the future and the future perfect refer to absolute time; he explains in a note that the name and essential quality of the other three is disputed. He considers them expressions of relative time (the aorist expressing anteriority); he continues:

"it is often stated that Greek had no proper means of expressing relative time and that the stems are really aspect stems In general, this position is untenable."

In describing the functions of the aorist, he discusses uses which do express relative time (thus, in narrative, something which had already happened is aorist) and uses which express aspect, such as the so-called "tragic aorist".

This controverts, as clearly as the facts will allow, Taivo's position, and defies his claims on usage. We are not here to reform the English language, least of all against the authorities. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

A) I hope the clashes up till now won't stop people from giving due attention to Rijksbaron, who I believe is widely recognized as a sophisticated linguist. For a linguist like Rijksbaron in the tradition of functional grammar, I think "very strong conversational implicature" tends to establish the importance of understanding the Ancient Greek aorist for understanding tense (in "Kwami and Taivo's sense") in the language.

In short, may I perhaps hope for some consensus, across the divide here, that Rijksbaron is one of our best available sources for the structure and content of the Greek section of this article? If so, the section will have a lot to say about morphological "tense stem" and tense-as-time.

B) Then, perhaps the point in writing the lead is to consult WP:LEAD: " a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article...summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies" (I would add, "and discrepancies"). In other words, there can and should be a section entirely devoted to the "aorist aspect" as understood in a sense of pure aorist, by those linguists who have used the word to mean this. And there should be a section discussing the Greek aorist-tense-and-aspect-complex as described by Rijksbaron and other linguists & philologists whose main concern is to give a satisfactory account of Greek in detail. And the job of the WP:LEAD is not to take sides between them, but to be a comprehensible introduction for the reader to understand how and why both topics will be treated in the appropriate fashion below. Wareh (talk) 17:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I cannot but agree. Rijksbaron seems an excellent, learned, and comprehensive text; the use of aorist as an aspect should have a section, preferably leading to usage (in Romanian? outside IE?) for "morphological tenses" which have that aspect. We shall see how long it takes before some people denounce Rijksbaron now I have praised him. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I evaluate references according to how you evaluate them. My world revolves around you.

I do not have access to Rijksbaron, so I can only take your word for it that he considers the aorist to be anterior tense, and thus tense is the technical sense of the word. He may well be right. However, this is so far the only scholar we have cited who takes this view. He is specifically contradicted by Campbell (2008) in Verbal Aspect and Non-Indicative Verbs, Chapter 1, p. 17:

Clearly the aorist participle is capable of non-antecedent temporal reference. Consequently, stringent adherence to the relative temporal position has led to some droll suggestions. In one renowned case in Odyssey 2.3, an aorist participle indicates Telemachus' act of dressing while the principal verb denotes his getting out of bed. While it would make plain sense to read the aorist participle as indicating subsequent temporal reference ... Scott's elaborate explanation has him dressing in bed before rising: 'The Homeric Greek went to sleep unclad, but he had a certain modesty about exposing his person and did not needlessly appear naked'.

Masterman goes so far as to suggest that the whole idea of relative temporality owes its existence to the loss of distinction between time and aspect, and 'becomes irrelevant once that distinction is restored'. Burton argues that it is aspect that determines the usage of the aorist participle, not relative time. So Decker; 'It is more common to express past (or: prior) reference with perfective aspect (aorist form) since it is most common to refer to such events as complete rather than to view them as in progress.'

And in (2007) Verbal aspect, the indicative mood, and narrative, p. 49:

Fanning and Evans retain the traditional tense understanding, though for Fanning 'The relative time-values are a secondary effect of the aspects'

The question I have about Rijksbaron is this: does he claim that the aorist is pure tense, with no aspectual value? If so, then we have one notable scholar who thinks it is tense, and we should note that. If, however, he believes that it is anterior in addition to perfective, as Wareh intimated earlier, then he is little different from the many other scholars, such as Comrie, who have said that the aorist is PFV past. — kwami (talk) 00:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

None of that contradicts what Rijksbaron actually said. I quoted him at some length to make clear that he was (1) talking about the aorist stem, (2) denying the position that it was purely aspectual, leaving Greek no means of indicating true relative time. As a result, he calls it - and its four siblings - tense stems, and states that the meaning of the aorist stem is anteriority. That the aorist does, in some very important uses, have aspect - as the perfects do - he would surely assert; the distinction between the aorist and the imperfect in narrative (which I have condensed severely) is largely a difference in aspect within the past. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, then his position is apparently that the aorist is PFV past, as others have said, with the proviso that the past is relative rather than absolute--though you say that it's not relative. I'd have to see the context to figure that out. Regardless, it would appear that R is perhaps a refinement on what others have said, or a disagreement in the details. — kwami (talk) 06:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

No it isn't. It can't be; the aorist doesn't have to address the past; it doesn't have to be in the "perfective". It can be both, or either, or (I think) neither; both are more common than the alternative. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

• Still no answer to Cynwolfe's question, I see.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Article contradicting sources, and other problems

Some of the recent edits, which border on WP:OR, have resulted in an article which completely contradicts its sources. For example, Mollin and Williamson say "When a verb denotes an action as a whole, without regard to the temporal progression of its parts, its aspect is said to be 'aorist.'" -- an opinion contrary to the one in the article ("the aorist conceives of an event or situation as bounded"), even though the article cites them at that point. The article cites Fanning at the same point, even though Fanning argues that the aorist "presents an occurrence in summary, viewed as a whole from the outside, without regard for the internal make-up of the occurrence." Similarly, the quote from Comrie ("In Ancient Greek, the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense, although it does have some nonpast uses. In other moods and in nonfinite forms, the Aorist is purely aspectual, not an expression of tense.") seems unrelated to some sentences in the article which cite it.

It seems to me the article needs to be rewritten, probably starting with an older version which does not contradict its sources in this way.

I'm also uncomfortable in using books on NT Greek (especially unreliable older books) as sole evidence for the situation in Classical Greek, as is now done in places.

The edits to the tables also seem to me to be confusing: the table in what is now the "Usage in ancestral Indo-European" section was once a table of three morphological devices, with examples -- it's not quite so clear now what it's doing. The table in "Usage in Greek" used to summarise the previous examples; it no longer does so. -- Radagast3 (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

In regard to your NT point, it was suggested above that Homeric, Attic, and koine be distinguished in the Greek section. I agree that the article requires radical reorganization. It's one of the shortcomings of the WP method that restructuring an article is one of the hardest things to do. The lede needs to summarize the article's contents; it shouldn't be the first battleground, but the cleanup operation. However, this requires first generating an outline that would structure the article — a basic step in "pre-writing" for a composition, as even young students will tell you, and yet a step that the WP process doesn't account for. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Radagast, there is no contradiction at all in the descriptions of aorist as a bounded form among Mollin and Williamson, Fanning, and the current lead wording. All those descriptions are of a bounded aspect, just using different phrasing. They all say the same thing--that aorist aspect implies a bounded event, perceived as a single whole. --Taivo (talk) 18:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

That's one quality of the aorist; but not all there is to it. A good generalization; but it does not cover the ingressive aorist, nor the aorist of impossible wishes, nor several others. Hence Rijksbaron's stress on anteriority; please stop trying to play Procrustes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Please read more carefully, PMAnderson, and you would see that I was not making a complete statement of all the uses of aorist (you also forgot the inceptive, which I have mentioned before and added to the article), but of the comments that Radagast thought were contradictory in describing aorist as primarily an aspect of boundedness. --Taivo (talk) 19:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for that unadmitted retraction; but why should I read your posts at all? I only learn such claims as that I forgot the "inceptive" aorist - when I mentioned it. Or is it some more of Taivo's smoke and mirrors that the ingressive aorist has nothing to do with inception? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:18, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for another personal attack. Are you incapable of making a comment without a personal attack? There is no retraction of anything there. You are twisting words for your own POV. And you did not mention "inceptive", you mentioned "ingressive" which is something different. "Inception" is the beginning of an act, "ingressive" is the entering into of a state. Different things. --Taivo (talk) 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

That was an attack, not on a person, but on a prospective post; when the post materialized, it justified the attack. Please try to be less predictable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

And on the point at issue: it is true that the aorist (in Greek) can mean that the action is confined to a certain time or stretch of time (the tragic aorist is an example; the thanks or whatever is confined to an instant). Nor is saying so necessarily a contradiction to the sources; it is possible to be bounded and without interior makeup; it is possible to be unbounded and without interior makeup. But it is not what they say - and so this faile verification. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, the quotation which allegedly supports the "inceptive aorist" says ingressive aorist. If there is a distinction, the text is unsupported; if there is not - and I see none - Taivo is disingenuous. At this point, I no longer care much which. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Classical Greek

Rijksbaron discusses the following uses of the aorist (since he uses Herodotus and twice Homer, I can't head this Attic); I append sections from the 2002 edition, in the hope of portability.

• In narrative, the aorist alternates with the imperfect, the aorist showing completed action, the imperfect incomplete. In particular the aorist may describe individual steps within the framework of a general action described with the imperfect. $6,1
• In narrative, the aorist may show an earlier action, which may or may not be marked with tote. $6.3.1
• The aorist with verbs of state may indicate entrance into that state enosēse "became sick". $6.3.2 Ingressive aorist.
• Unrealizable wishes about the past only. $8.2
• In direct speech, actions completed at the moment of utterance; umeas...nun sunelexa "I have called you together". $8.3.1
• In tragic dialogue, performative verbs are in the aorist when immediately followed by a change of topic: epēnex', alla steiche dōmatōn esō "I thank you, now come let's go into the house". $8.3.2 Tragic aorist.

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

discussion

Note that only the second one has a tense meaning (although it is "tense" only by implicature), all the others are aspect. --Taivo (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this baiting? On the contrary, the narrative use has both "tense", or rather time, and aspect; the use for impossible wishes has time explicitly; and several with time follow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not baiting, but as detailed as you want to get this isn't the article for it. These details belong in a separate article: "Aorist (Greek)". This article is about aorist in general, not Greek specifically. The Greek section of this article should point in general to the development of the Indo-European aorist aspect into Homeric, Classical, Koine, and Modern Greek with a hat note to a new article that deals with the Greek aorist in detail. --Taivo (talk) 22:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

No; the article called Aorist should cover the principal meaning of the word; that's WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. I doubt that Taivo's pet project of a general article on the "aorist aspect" should have an article at all; but if it does, it should not be this one. I am prepared, however, to let one exist if he goes away and writes it; it would be nice if it were supported by its sources - but we can see about that when he's done it.

And neither article, whatever its title, should be filled with nonsense about the aorist in any language concerned; which is the reason for this section.

But I will grant that although Taivo has claimed ownership of this space before, this was at least unpredictable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

More personal attacks, PMAnderson. Tsk, tsk. No, this is the article about aorist, not the article about all the details of Greek aorist. It should be organized as Cynwolfe suggested--general lead, Indo-European aspect, developments of the aspect in Sanskrit, developments of the aspect in Greek (from Mycenean up through Modern--where it has become a tense from what you have said), evidence of the development in other Indo-European branches (or loss), the use of "aorist" in other languages based on its usage in Indo-European linguistics. Go write your article "Aorist (Greek)". --Taivo (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Aorist is a general linguistic term (whether it is best characterised as an aspect I don't know), not limited to Greek grammar. A general article about "Aorist" should make a general overview of the usage and definitions of the term in linguistics while providing examples from multiple languages that have been claimed to have an Aorist aspect, including but not limited to Greek. It could also contain a history of the usage of the term showing that it originated in the descriptionn of Greek grammar, and that it has since become a general linguistic term.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

That's what we were planning on; but certain editors have done their best to make it impossible, while revert-warring for claims their sources do not support. That leaves few choices. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Maunus - I hope you can add to the collaborative spirit. I got this from the intro to Linguistics (italics mine) - Linguistics is narrowly defined as the scientific approach to the study of language, but language can be approached from a variety of directions, and a number of other intellectual disciplines are relevant to it and influence its study. The difficulty with this article at present is the narrowness of the definition - much of it is incomprehensible to anyone outside the linguistic community. Amphitryoniades (talk) 02:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree - a narrow defition is not problematic if it is well written and correct. In this case the problem seems to me to be firstly that the entire definition is couched in jargon and doesn't even attempt to communicate what aorist means to a lay reader, and secondly that there is a wish to overemphasize one particular part of the general topic (the greek aorist).·Maunus·ƛ· 23:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! The reliance on jargon results from a narrow focus on 'the scientific approach'. The introduction should be addressed to a wide audience of laymen. There should then be sections where the different disciplines can use their separate jargons. The problem here is an inter-disciplinary feud that won't be settled except in general terms - laymen terms. That's how it seems to me. Amphitryoniades (talk) 00:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

No, wikipedia is supposed to communicate the scientific approach to laymen without using jargon - this is a question of good writing not of approach or definition, both linguists can write without jargon and so can greek grammarians. We must be able to write a good article adressed to laymen and still give a good definition of what the scientific concept we are handling is.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes but the scientific approach doesn't represent all sides here. You wouldn't write an article about the automobile using a scientific approach - science is just a part of the whole story. Same with the Aorist. Anyhow, that's my last shot. Good luck! Amphitryoniades (talk) 00:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Jargon isn't really the issue. Both traditions use the terms "tense" and "aspect"; the only difference is whether one is subsumed under the other. Greek scholars have themselves noted this discrepancy. I don't think it should be a problem to say that in Greek studies the aorist is commonly called a "tense", though technically it's an aspect, or a conflation of tense and aspect; that's exactly what several of our sources do. As for whether we call it a "tense" or "aspect" in the text, why use either? We can simply call it the "aorist", which would confuse nobody. This whole storm in a teacup is due to an insistence on using the conventions of one subfield of the topic. — kwami (talk) 00:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, it is the usage of a mass of provincial jargon that is despoiling what could be a perfectly clear article, phrased in the language that has always been used and is (see Cynwolfe's citations far above) still in use.

Comrie and Rijksbaron are compelled to treat "present" and "aorist" as adjectives with an understood substantive - but Comrie's index and Rijksbaron's chapter headings make clear that the word understood is "tense". We should state it; we are not writing for the narrow body of specialists which practice "transformational linguistics" - and thanks are due for that blessing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

This definition "is a perfective aspect (not to be confused with the perfect) of the verb in the grammatical tradition of Ancient Greek (where it is usually called aorist tense) and in languages whose description has been influenced by that tradition." is full of jargon and does not explain anything to the layreader.·Maunus·ƛ· 11:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Aorist (Greek)

Taivo asserts above: These details belong in a separate article: "Aorist (Greek)". This article is about aorist in general, not Greek specifically. The Greek section of this article should point in general to the development of the Indo-European aorist aspect into Homeric, Classical, Koine, and Modern Greek with a hat note to a new article that deals with the Greek aorist in detail.

Does anyone else agree with him? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I do.·Maunus·ƛ· 22:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to ask the question in light of WP:CFORK. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:58, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I do as well. I also agree that content forking could be a problem, but by the tone of the argument, I'd be more worried about a POV fork than an accidental one. — kwami (talk) 23:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I dn't think forking would be a problem - I think that Aorist (greek) coulkd easily be a spinnout article from a short section on the greek aorist in the general article.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as long as the purpose for splitting is not to present a POV rejected on this article. (It could, of course, deal more with traditional terminology, but would still need to be compatible with how "tense" is defined elsewhere.) — kwami (talk) 23:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Obviously the definition of the linguistic term aorist should be the same in both articles - it would be a matter of giving a deeper level of detail to the probably best described specimen of the aorist than is due in the general article.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:58, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

The only rejected POV is the persistent unsourced falsehood that the aorist is an aspect. It can have an aspect, but need not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

tense

Grammatical tense isn't very helpful. Until my recent edit, it wasn't even grammatical. From the discussion (or "discusssion") so far, I'm gathering that linguists understand tense as a reference to time, whether absolute or relative, but classicists trained from standard textbooks think of tense as a combination of time + aspect. Am I right about this? If not, what is the single work I should turn to to correct my misunderstanding? (N.b., dogmatic assertions that one terminology or the other is "correct" are very unlikely to solve my confusion, so please avoid such assertions.) --Akhilleus (talk) 05:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that's right. The Greeks themselves I think subsumed them under a common term which we translate as "tense". Note that the twelve "tenses" of English follow that tradition. However, we also have several instances now of Greek scholars, some predating the publications by Comrie that pretty much fixed the terminology of tense and aspect within general linguistics, which were careful to note that the Greek "tenses" were not really tenses, or were more than tenses, etc. Also, beware of descriptions that state that tense encodes "time", in contrast to aspect, which encodes something else. Both tense and aspect encode time; the difference is that tense encodes the when of time (future, hodiernal, anterior, etc), whereas aspect encodes the how of time (inchoative, progressive, habitual, iterative, etc). Position vs. shape, if you will, or in the case of (im)perfective, point of view (interior/exterior). — kwami (talk) 06:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the word in question is chronos (LSJ sub voce, V,1). "Tense" is the French descendant of Latin tempus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

However, my answer would be that classicists think of tenses as collections of forms, which normally mark both time and aspect: egrapsa is the (lst sing. act.) first aorist of grapho, no matter which function of the aorist it's being used for. There is a strong implication that it is an undivided act of writing, a weaker implication that it's in the past - but both depend on context. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I partially agree with you. Both "tense" and "aspect" are grammaticalized: that is, they are grammatical forms, like case. As with case, they may not always be used for their prototypical functions, though I don't know that they're nearly as variable as the Greek cases. That's all normal and part of the individual-language variation of any purported cross-linguistic grammatical form; compare the use of the "dative" in Greek and German, for example, or internally within Greek or German.

However, in the sources above I've read that while past tense is an implicature of the aorist, the perfective aspect is not. That is, a past tense reading may be canceled by context, but the aspectual reading may not be. Of course, in Greek the aorist is the unmarked aspect, and so is often used simply because there is no particular reason to use another aspect, thus weakening its aspectual force. This, however, is a normal consequence of markedness, not essentially different from any language with an unmarked perfective. — kwami (talk) 23:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

But of course the "perfective aspect" may be cancelled by context; when the meaning is past-within-past (Rijksbaron $6.2 above), the significance is purely temporal. Kwami's second sentence even admits this; to contend otherwise would be make the whole structure unfalsifiable - and therefore meaningless. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Kwami, thanks for the explanation above, which I found very helpful, especially the correction that tense and aspect both involve time. Pmanderson is right that classicists think of tenses primarily as collections of forms—at the most tedious level, they're blanks to fill in on a synopsis or paradigm. If I can't call the collection of aorist forms a tense, what do I call it? The phrase "tense-mood-aspect" is highly unsatisfactory, and I don't think it would help in teaching beginning Greek at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Glad you found it useful.

Zerwick back in the 60s called them "tenses", using scare quotes. I can certainly understand just calling them tenses for the sake of the prose; the problem is making sure the reader follows when we really mean tense, and when it's shorthand for something more. I agree with tense-aspect-mood being unsatisfactory, though perhaps tense-aspect isn't so bad: I've seen that in some Greek grammars, since they treat tense-aspect separately from mood. Also, if we expand "tense" to the broader meaning, there is no word that I'm aware of for tense proper; in some grammars I've seen it as "time", but that leaves us even worse off because not only does that redefine "time" to mean specifically position on a time line in order to exclude aspect, but because "time" includes words like "yesterday" which aren't tense at all.

I've commonly seen temporal vs aspectual for the adjectives of tense and aspect; it's only context that allows you to know that temporal doesn't have the broader meaning, which I'm sure it has in other texts.

Because tense-aspect-mood is so awkward, it's commonly abbreviated to TAM, and TAM gets thrown around as a regular noun. You can see a generational difference: linguists of Comrie's era will almost never speak of "tams", or if they do, they do almost sheepishly. The next generation of linguists will speak of tams colloquially, because what else are you going to use? But that's *way* too jargony to be used in an encyclopedia article. — kwami (talk) 06:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Then use "position on a timeline"; or rather, since "yesterday" is a position on a timeline (-1 day from the origin), use "past, present, or future", which is - if anything - what you mean. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Generally, when a science gets this far into a priori reasoning, the next generation abandons a large proportion of the abstract structure, on the grounds that it isn't talking about anything outside itself; that's how you know they are the next generation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

"position on a timeline" as a n explanation of tense-aspect is wrong. It is not just the position but also the duration and the perspective on the action. Past, present, future is worse because it only applies to tense and only in languages that have that particular division of temporal space. I don't understand what you mean to add to the discussion by your comment about generations and apriori reasoning. ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"Position on a timeline" was suggested - by Kwami, not by me - to represent "tense" (in the "general linguistic" sense) by itself. I agree that it does not fit.

Since we are discussing, so far, Indo-European languages, the worry that the description will not fit some highly non-Indo-European language can be postponed until we get a language which is described using aorist and also does not use past/present/future (or a subset of them). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"Bounded"

What does "bounded" mean when it is used in this article to define the aorist? It isn't used in any of the three refs that are placed after it. — Eru·tuon 13:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree it's not very helpful with your edit that "without boundaries" is not the operative definition; your edit is an improvement. Presumably it comes from the LSJ article on ἀόριστος, but LSJ gives one non-grammatical example (the unassigned land on the Athenian-Megarian border, in Thucydides), so this is the wrong part of the lexicon entry to cite. For that matter, the ancient grammatical uses of the word are not terribly illuminating. Given the debate here, folks might be interested to know that Dionysius Thrax actually agrees with modern linguistics that tenses are three (past, present, and future), but then he makes ἀόριστον one of the diaphorai of the past; he also uses the word for the indefinite ὅστις. Wareh (talk) 14:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, I was looking at Erutuon's edit to the etymology and not responding at all to the question about the term "bounded." While it is a curious fact that the etymology and the linguistic term echo each other, this coincidence has absolutely no bearing on whether the modern term in its proper use applies to the aorist or not (so, without opining on whether the application of the term is dubious or not, I do agree with Kwami that the etymology is not the reason to cite). Wareh (talk) 14:37, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(As a side note, I think the kind of ancient usage that Wareh refers to is indeed both interesting and pertinent, and ought to be in the Greek section.) Cynwolfe (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec)"Bounded" is a linguistic term that means the action has a perceptual beginning and end, that it is a unit, that is it not limitless or unbounded. The references following the use of the term in the article clearly define a bounded action in their descriptions of aorist. It is the difference between "I ate fish for dinner" and "I eat fish" or "I was eating fish" or "I have eaten fish". The "eating fish for dinner" is a unitary action that has a clearly perceived beginning and end, thus it is bounded, unlike the other examples which are open-ended or incomplete. --Taivo (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Aha, thanks. So the term does have a clearly defined meaning. But perhaps we should use a different phrase (perhaps based on the sources), since the term is not commonly used outside linguistics, and is not defined on Misplaced Pages, except in passing in Lexical aspect.

On the Greek meaning of aorist, the explanation in one of the sources made sense: that the aorist is indefinite because it is not defined as to whether it has duration or a continuing result, as the imperfect and perfect are. — Eru·tuon 15:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"Indefinite" implies that there is no aspectual usage, but most sources clearly state that there is an implication of boundedness, even if they don't use the term "bounded". Sometimes the term used is "punctual", sometimes something else. Rather than abandoning the bounded term, we should more clearly describe what bounded means in term of the aorist. The aorist is rarely, if ever, truly "indefinite", because it nearly always implies the completion of an action, therefore bounding it. --Taivo (talk) 16:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Right — I was talking about the Ancient Greeks' perception of the aorist, based on the word (aoristos) that they used to describe it. — Eru·tuon 17:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

without boundaries or limits would seem to be the relevant sense of aoristos; the sense is that the aorist is not subject to the limitations of the other chronoi; it need not have the aspect of the perfects or the temporal limitations of the present, imperfect, or future. Translating as "unmarked" would probably be going too far; but it is the same idea. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Hey, we're pretty much in agreement there. — kwami (talk) 19:37, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

If the two of you agree, don't let what I wrote stand as an objection. Really, I was just being a literalist in parsing LSJ: they mean to say that modifying γῆ the word has to do with status in relation to land boundaries, vs. the transferred meanings. Obviously, the "boundary" metaphor is there in all the word's senses, especially since the literal usage does not mean "without boundaries" the way that sounds to me in English ("sweeping over all limits") but rather an ambiguous unassigned status. Wareh (talk) 19:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I like your edit, I'm just not in disagreement w Sep. Trans'n as 'w/o boundaries' does clash a bit w def. as 'bounded', so IMO it's best avoided for ease of reading. — kwami (talk) 23:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"Without boundary markers" ( horismata) would cover the idea. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Attic vs Koine

Isn't the Classical aorist identical to the Koine as explained in the article — tense-aspect in indicative mood, mostly aspect in non-indicative moods? My Attic Greek course (Hansen and Quinn) presented it that way. Are there sources that disagree? — Eru·tuon 22:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Attic has many special uses. Even in its present incomplete state, the list above for Rijksbaron should make clear that Erutuon's assertion is inexact for Attic - and for Herodotus; it is good enough for a two-sentence intro to the aorist in a first Greek class, but I doubt it is correct even for Koine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Several of those uses do not follow the generalization, but the most basic ones (aorist in narrative and ingressive aorist) do. The more specialized uses are extensions of the aspectual meaning. Would adding qualifying terms (the aorist indicative in general expresses tense and aspect) satisfy you? — Eru·tuon 17:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

No; while the generalization is not groundless, it is a topic sentence rather than a statement which can stand by itself without qualification. The aorist indicative in one use is a pure relative "tense", in another a pure aspect; in the most common, that of mere narrative, it has both an aspect and a time. The subjunctive and the optative can have all the uses of the indicative. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

As you recall above somewhere, there was some agreement that the fine details of the Greek aorist should be in a separate article. Erutuon's general assessment is accurate as a broad summary and appropriate for this article. --Taivo (talk) 21:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Please stop clouding counsel with these pushes towards misinformation; whether or not the Greek aorist, the primary meaning, has a separate article, this one should not contain open falsehood. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you reread all the comments above, Pmanderson. You will see that Erutuon's general assessment is a fair statement of the consensus minus you. If you carefully read your sources and the sources cited by others, you will see that they 1) describe the aorist outside the indicative clearly as an aspect, and 2) describe the aorist indicative as a combination of tense and aspect (although linguists have described the tense is only an implicature, I'm willing to compromise at indicative aorist being a combination of tense and aspect). There isn't anything "false" about Erutuon's generalization. It is an accurate generalization. Ten sentences in Herodotus don't falsify a generalization. They can be described ad infinitum in an article on "Aorist (Greek)", but such detail is not relevant to this general article. --Taivo (talk) 14:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Your removal of tags is inappropriate. Your conduct is a claim to ownership of this article, which you have ruined. Its claims about Greek are simply wrong; they do not even reflect the vague generalizations in irrelevant sources correctly, much less the Greek language.

A correct, and brief, set of statements would take no more space than this fraudulent presentation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I would like to remind you of WP:CIVIL. This article is not fraudulent just because it doesn't mesh perfectly with your POV. The sources cited support the text. The writing of this article has been a collaborative effort and I don't own it. But you don't own it either. Your manner toward the other editors has often been uncivil and you don't assume good faith. --Taivo (talk) 14:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The article is fraudulent; it declares what is not so, and what its sources (not to mention books written about the subject of the article) do not support.

Abusive claims of incivility are discussed here; they are often distractions from a discussion of substance by those who will engage in any stratagem to defend their improper texts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:56, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you should review your own comments in light of WP:CIVIL: "stop clouding counsel", "pushes toward misinformation", "which you have ruined", "go learn some Greek", "go edit an article on jargon". I think your incivility is clearly demonstrated and I won't say more about it. In reading the discussion here, you stand alone, PMAnderson, so using incivility as a strategy isn't my practice. --Taivo (talk) 15:31, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

No, you use revert-warring and falsehood - and charges of incivility. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Pmanderson, your dubious tags are no good unless you explain them. Specifically, I'm interested in your dubious tag after the statement that non-indicative aorist (namely, subjunctive, optative, imperative, infinitive, participle) is purely aspectual: which non-indicative uses express both tense and aspect, or merely tense? — Eru·tuon 15:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Nearly anything in if-then statements. By the time you exclude both if-then and indirect discourse, you don't have much usage of the subjunctive/optative left - and the aorist imperative should be discussed on its own anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

In addition, the aorist of unrealizable wishes (which is optative) has both time and mood; it implies nothing about aspect, being already heavily loaded. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why the aorist optative of unrealizable wish can't express all three: time, aspect, and mood. What difference between present and aorist optative would there be in that construction, if not aspect? Can you point to any examples of sentences where the aorist of unrealizable wish definitely does not express aspect?

There are two main uses of the optative in conditional sentences: past general and future less vivid. Other less common uses are probably based on these. The protasis of the past general is the aorist optative that you say has tense, then? And the future less vivid has only aspect? — Eru·tuon 18:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The aorist optative of unrealizable wishes definitely has aspect--it is a negative perfective aspect, "this cannot be completed". --Taivo (talk) 18:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be confusion here. There is nothing "unrealizable" (or past) about a wish expressed by aorist optative; if I say ἐξολοίμην, "may I perish," my wish may well be realized. I think someone got confused by the Rijksbaron list above: but the unrealizable aorist wishes referred to there would use the indicative. Wareh (talk) 18:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

It turns out there are optatives of unrealizable wish, but you're right, they aren't past. See here: page 299, paragraph 1198 b in Smyth. — Eru·tuon 18:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Here are references to the aspectual nature of the non-indicative:

• "In other moods and in nonfinite forms, the Aorist is purely aspectual, not an expression of tense" Comrie (cited in article)
• "Outside the aorist indicative...the aorist...tells us that it was a single event. The imperfect..., which usually suggests that the action should be seen as a continuing process, makes a helpful contrast with this use of the aorist to convey a single crisp event. We refer to the distinction between ways of expressing events and actions as aspect." Morwood (cited in article)

So there are two quotes that deal specifically with Classical Greek that clearly say that the aorist outside the indicative is aspectual. --Taivo (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone disagrees with that general truth, though your quotes state it overbroadly, choosing to overlook the exceptions, where an aorist infinitive, participle, or optative "represents" an direct-speech aorist indicative in indirect discourse. Wareh (talk) 18:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The exceptions are why Erutuon's version above says, "in general". The details can be placed in a separate article on "Aorist (Greek)" without overburdening this general article with too much. But it seems like we all agree that aorist in the indicative is generally tense/aspect while aorist outside the indicative is generally aspect. The sources strongly support that generalization, realizing that there is (as there always is with any language) some gray area. --Taivo (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

This is a misleading - indeed false - generalization, in the interest of a dogmatic adherence to an artificial theory. It would be simpler, shorter, and clearer to actually describe the Greek aorist. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:51, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

So far, we know of two constructions in which the non-indicative aorist expresses past time. Aorist optative of unrealizable wish is not included, since it does not express past time (it is the aorist indicative of past unrealizable wish that does).

1. aorist optative, infinitive, participle in indirect discourse
2. aorist optative in protasis of past general conditional sentence

Since the article already mentions the first counterexample, does the second counterexample make the generalization unhelpful? — Eru·tuon 21:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

If that generalization is unhelpful then why do we find it in reliable sources? If reliable sources use that very phraseology as a generalization, then you are wrong to call it unhelpful. Just because there are uncommon exceptions, that does not falsify the generalization. --Taivo (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

For the same reason we find many unhelpful generalizations about political parties, nationalities, and scientific theories in reliable sources; they're good enough to get by in a text which is addressed to people who already know that it's a half-truth and which is talking about something else.. If you want to emphasize one side of a truth in talking to someone who already knows it, you are likely to make claims you would not make in explaining the matter in detail to someone who doesn't. We are doing the latter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:54, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

But you are not seeing the point to the generalization. A generalization is right and proper to express the majority circumstance. You are talking about a small minority of cases and trying to say that the generalization is false because of a small minority of cases. That is not good argumentation in either an encyclopedia or a full blown grammar. Good practice is to state the generalization and then to deal with any minority circumstances in descending order of frequency. At some point in the descending order of frequency, you hit the point where the details belong in a separate article on "Aorist (Greek)" and not in this more general article. --Taivo (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Using a statement which is at best half-true is excusable on two conditions: that you go on to explain that it ain't so; or you return to the topic, noting the oversimplification then. Elementary textbooks, like the book cited, have space for the second; we don't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The generalization is more than "half-true", it explains the majority of cases. The exceptions are called exceptions for a reason--they are not the most common use or meaning. And we must deal in generalizations. People don't come here for a Greek grammar explaining ten sentences in Herodotus--they come here for a general understanding of aorist. They read a few sentences, get the generalization, and then move on with their lives. We are not here to replicate a full-blown Greek grammar that explains everything, no matter how rare. --Taivo (talk) 22:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Shorter Taivo: it's all right to misstate the case and mislead the ignorant, because we're only engaged in airy froth generalizations.

We can actually explain the Greek aorist - and say nothing actually false - in less space than the text I found, if we cut the stuff wasted on the perfect, which is off topic here, and on verbose quotations from Xenophon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)There is no misstatement, PMAnderson. If I write, "The nominal plural is almost always marked in English by a suffixed -s" that is a perfectly correct statement. So too, "The aorist indicative in Greek is both aspect and tense, while the non-indicative aorist is generally only aspect" is a perfectly correct statement. Your insistence on placing exceptions that only describe 10 sentences in Herodotus and are not generally true is obfuscation because you don't like the word "aspect". While I don't usually like quotations, in this case they provide some useful clarification. --Taivo (talk) 23:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

If the two principal functions of the subjunctive were as rare as English irregular plurals, there would be no problem with the generalization. But indirect discourse and conditional statements are not rare. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Overgeneralized and unhelpful language

I put this here, since the continued revert-warring of our gallant defenders of jargon make it impossible merely to tag this text.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

In the Greek indicative mood,<:ref name="Comrie12">Bernard Comrie, Aspect: An introduction to the study of verbal aspect and related problems, Cambridge University Press, 1976, ISBN 0521290457, p 12: "In Ancient Greek, the Aorist is in the Indicative Mood primarily a past tense, although it does have some nonpast uses. In other moods and in nonfinite forms, the Aorist is purely aspectual, not an expression of tense."</ref><:ref>Kenneth Leslie McKay, A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek: An aspectual approach, Peter Lang, 1994, ISBN 0820421235, p. 46.</ref> the aorist generally refers to a past action, in a general way or as a completed event.<:ref name="Beetham116">Beetham, p. 116.</ref> It may also be used to express a general statement in the present (the "gnomic aorist"),<:ref name="Wallace562">Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, 4th ed., Zondervan, 1997, ISBN 0310218950, p. 562.</ref> less commonly a future event. Used these ways, it is described as the aorist indicative<:ref name="Beetham117">Beetham, p. 117.</ref> or aorist tense.

This last sentence is a simple falsehood. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:37, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

In other moods (subjunctive, optative, and imperative), the infinitive, and (largely) the participle, the aorist is purely aspectual (except in indirect discourse when it replaces an indicative).<:ref name="Comrie12"/> In these forms, it need have no temporal implication, and can act purely as a way of referring to an "action pure and simple" without the specific implications of the other aspects.

Observe that the same half-sentence, by a Slavicist, has now been cited three times. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The aorist aspect is used in the imperative, for example, in the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:11, which says "Give (δὸς dòs, aorist imperative) us this day our daily bread". In contrast, the similar passage in Luke 11:3 uses the imperfective aspect, implying a sense of continuation with "Give (δίδου dídou, present imperative) us day by day our daily bread."

This is a genuine difference of aspect; it is difficult for an imperative to mark time; but it should be subsumed under a general statement that the aorist tends to have an aspect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

"The aorist indicative provides a corresponding contrast with the imperfect indicative (often called "imperfect tense") in describing the past. An example of this occurs in Xenophon's Anabasis, when the Persian aristocrat Orontas is executed: "and those who had been previously in the habit of bowing (προσεκύνουν prosekúnoun, imperfect) to him, bowed (προσεκύνησαν prosekúnēsan, aorist) to him even then." Here the imperfect refers to a past habitual or repeated act, and the aorist to a single one.

Already covered in the section on narrative. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

For comparison, the perfect indicative (often called "perfect tense") calls attention to the consequences generated by an action. It is often used for the act of writing, where the ongoing consequence is a written document. A famous example is Pontius Pilate's "What I have written, I have written" (ὃ γέγραφα, γέγραφα ho gegrapha, gegrapha) in John 19:22. The rare perfect imperative occurs in Mark 4:39 (πεφίμωσο pephimōso); this has the sense not just of "be still," as the KJV renders it, but commands an ongoing stillness, i.e. "be in a state of having been rendered harmless."

I see I left out a sentence about perfect imperatives being used in mathematics. So they are; they are also used outside mathematics. But either way they have nothing to do with this article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Overtagging

PMAnderson, your use of tags isn't appropriate. You've got a disputed tag at the top of the article, but tagging every sentence that you personally disagree with as "dubious" is overkill and poor Misplaced Pages practice. I have removed them while leaving the tag at the top of the page. If another editor disagrees with my removal then so be it, but as it stands, from my reading of the comments over the last week or so, you are standing alone in your objections. That barely makes a "disputed" tag necessary, but I've left it there. But adding "dubious" on every sentence is ridiculous. --Taivo (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Writing sentences which are simply wrong is what is ridiculous. Go learn some Greek, find relevant sources, learn to read your sources correctly - and in the meantime, please go edit an article on jargon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I have, I have, I have, and that's not my interest. --Taivo (talk) 15:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think tagging dubious sentences i bad wikipedia practice - a better tag instead of "dubious" would be citation needed.·Maunus·ƛ· 22:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that if there is a particular problem it should be tagged. PMAnderson, however, placed a tag on the entire article, a tag on the particular section, and was placing tags on every other sentence. That is inappropriate overtagging and WP:POINTy. --Taivo (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes; but sometimes these errors have citations: to sources which are carelessly phrased, carelessly read, or which do not intend to be taken literally. Sometimes it is simple enough to add a {{fv}}, but when it isn't, and the text is wrong, {{dubious}} covers the ground. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

At this point in the discussion, however, PMAnderson is the only editor who thinks it is wrong and is the only editor disagreeing with many of the sources cited. --Taivo (talk) 22:13, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Which is an ingenious way of phrasing: Taivo has bored away all but one of the actual classicists with his jargon, obfuscation and miscitation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:21, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring. You've already hit WP:3RR today. You may want to read WP:BOLD for a suggestion on proposed revisions. — kwami (talk) 23:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

No, actually, I made two reverts; one of them accidental. The rest of my edits have been novel text - which is the purpose of 3RR. If each side writes new text, we may find points of agreement and converge; revert warriors can't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

PMAnderson, why don't you just throw every single tag that Misplaced Pages has on the front of this article? Your continued addition of unnecessary tags is WP:POINTy. With a disputed and technical tag already there, the POV tag is absolutely ridiculous. You've made your points in your edit wars. You have been unable to build consensus around your POV. Adding another needless tag to the article is not a very mature way to deal with your inability to convince anyone else of your position. --Taivo (talk) 23:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Comrie, in writing and editing about the actual Slavic languages, uses the phrase "aorist tense". Since I was following his book, I used it myself. The two of you have yet to explain why we should seek to correct the widespread usage of our authorities, although Cynwolfe asked you more than a week ago. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Because we have presented multiple authorities to show that the usage of "tense" is not appropriate in all the circumstances where you claim it is. Lehmann, for example, is very explicit that Proto-Indo-European had no tense, only aspect. You ignore all authorities who don't reflect your single-minded POV. --Taivo (talk) 00:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

No, you cherry-pick quotations from sources talking about something else. The mutilation of a sentence solely on Slavonic cannot be justified by citing a sentence on a different subject. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Time for "Aorist (Greek)" split?

The remark about driving away classicists prompts me to reconsider a suggestion made more than once above: perhaps there should be a separate article called Aorist (Greek). If it's so impossible to arrive at an article that fills the needs of both linguists and the classicists or NT scholars, then there's a fundamental problem. Such an article would clearly not constitute a POV fork: since the classicists all seem to be speaking the same language and in basic agreement, there must be a genuine content split that can't be negotiated away. As someone mildly interested in Indo-European linguistics (in a Calvert Watkins/Emile Benveniste sort of way), I find this a repugnant but seemingly necessary solution. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:10, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, many of the classicists agree with the version we have, and linguists would continue to be relevant, so I expect the argument would simply continue at the new article. "Aorist in Ancient Greek" (or s.t. similar, since we don't cover Modern Greek) would still be a linguistic article. Our disagreement here no longer seems to be an issue of whether to use the word "tense", which can easily be sidestepped, but whether the aorist is a tense, an aspect, or a combination of the two within Ancient Greek. It seems that Sep is not arguing for a classical view in general, but for one of several classical views without representing them equally. — kwami (talk) 00:25, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Who? Nobody has agreed with Kwami and Taivo's confusing and erroneous text - except Taivo and Kwami. The extent and vehemence of our objections differ. But Radagast, Cynwolfe, Wareh, Akhilleus and Maunus all would change it - and only these two reverters prevent them from doing so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

That is not an accurate description of my position.·Maunus·ƛ· 18:17, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this addressed to me? The indentation is unclear. If so, please explain these comments further; they seem to indicate support for clarification of the lead, which is one of the changes I support and which has been consistently reverted. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I am in favour of using less jargon heavy language in the lead, however I don't have a feeling that Taivo or Kwamikagami are against this - they are against using definitions that are based usage in classic Greek studies rather than linguistics, something with which I agree. What I object to is using my comments as support for accusations of ownership against Taivo and Kwami - that is not my experience of what is happening here.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Let them prove it. Every effort to make this article comprehensible to all but a small clique of "transformational linguists" has been reverted or vandalized, despite general agreement among the rest of us that it should be done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Created the article Aorist (Ancient Greek), based on the template of Simple present (English), Simple past (English). — Eru·tuon 03:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Then this obscurantist article, which will be useless to the general reader for the foreseeable future, and documents (if anything) the jargon of one version of theoretical linguistics, should be moved to Aorist (linguistics).

This atrocious edit, which attempts to replace Comrie's own usage with pedantic Newspeak is POV; this entire article is a POV waste of the reader's time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

What is "atrocious" is your edit warring, PMAnderson, and your refusal to recognize any contributions to the article that you haven't written yourself. You have failed to recognize consensus and failed to get consensus for your own views. Proto-Indo-European aorist was not a tense and I simply removed the word "tense", as has been suggested many times on this page as a way to avoid the haggling between "tense" and "aspect". It was a reasonable, rational, and NPOV edit. --Taivo (talk) 00:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

It was rewriting Comrie's usage to serve your own agenda on vocabulary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Rewriting Comrie's usage to serve my own agenda would have been to replace "tense" with "aspect". Simply removing the controversial "tense" so that the wording was neutral is not violating the spirit of Comrie and is a move toward compromise that has been proposed by other editors above. That way, you can read "aorist (tense)" if that is your POV or "aorist (aspect)" if that is your POV. Lehmann's grammar of Proto-Indo-European Syntax is quite explicit that PIE had no tense, only aspect. --Taivo (talk) 00:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Lehmann's grammar of Proto-Indo-European Syntax is quite explicit that PIE had no tense, only aspect. Which, if true, should be reflected in the section on proto-Indo-European. That does not explain or justify mutilation of the language on Slavic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The sentence I edited on Slavic was about the change of Proto-Indo-European aorist. Just because it was in the Slavic section doesn't make the sentence suddenly refer to something besides Proto-Into-European. And your characterization of removing the controversial word "tense", which made no change whatsoever in the meaning of the sentence, as "mutilation" is rather stupid. --Taivo (talk) 00:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

another source

I think this is an example of a clearer definition that is legible to lay readers: David Crystal: Dictionary of Linguistics and Phonetics. "Aorist. A term used in the grammatical description of some languages, referring to a form of a verb with distinctive past tense or aspectual functions, especially expressing the lack of any particular completion, duration or repetition. For example in ancient Greek, the aorist is chiefly a past tense in the indicative mood, but expresses aspectual meanings in other moods. In the traditional grammar of some modern languages (e.g. Bulgarian) it is restricted to perfectivity in the past tense. The term aoristic is sometimes used in place of 'perfective' as part of the cross-linguistic discussion of aspect."·Maunus·ƛ· 18:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Quite reasonable. The Greek aorist can have aspect in the indicative, but this does not deny that; the phrasing for other moods is sensible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:32, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Here is an example of how to avoid the aspect/tense issue in the definition, its from the Merriam-Webster: " an inflectional form of a verb typically denoting simple occurrence of an action without reference to its completeness, duration, or repetition "·Maunus·ƛ· 13:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

In "Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture by J. P. Mallory,Douglas Q. Adams" - the Greek aorist is definitely described as an aspect. (pp 243 & 466 )

In "Concise encyclopedia of languages of the world by Keith Brown,Sarah Ogilvie" Aorist is described as aspect in Berber (p 154, 156, 157), Romani (p. 899), PIE (p. 463) Ewe (p. 409) and as Aspect in Macedonian p. 664 but as tense on p. 977, as tense in Nenets (p. 762) as tense-aspect in Indo-Iranian (p. 533) ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Protected

I've fully protected the article to avoid more move-warring and incite discussion. If there is consensus to unprotect I will.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

It has been suggested that I am "involved" in this dispute so even though I don't cvonsider myself involved in the sense of having an opinion about the proposed move I will unprotect. Any I believe that Pmanderson is much too intelligent to try to move the page again without consensus.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, but I believe there is no opposition to the move but the two POV-pushers who have taken over and ruined this article. I am willing to let them have their erroneous POV fork; but it should be possible for those who seek the common and traditional sense of aorist to find the article on the aorist tense without wading through this.

If I am wrong, the remedy lies at WP:RM. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

You are edit warring, PMAnderson. I am reporting you for 3RR for moving this page without getting consensus. I oppose the move. --Taivo (talk) 00:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Aorist without aspect

PManderson, you assert that the aorist sometimes doesn't have aspect. Which uses of the aorist are you referring to? — Eru·tuon 23:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Most obviously, the past-within-past of Rijksbaron $6.3.2, which is pure relative time, but there are others. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Does Rijksbaron say that it has relative time and no aspect? — Eru·tuon 00:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Having said that the meaning of the aorist stem is anteriority (and denied that it is pure aspect) he has no need to; but he describes it in full, and in contrast to the normal narrative aorist, which has both past time and perfective aspect (although he avoids the jargon). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

R says, "the value is not part of the meaning of the aorist indicative; it is, rather, in Gricean terms, a conversational implicature, be it a very strong one'. (1986:246) Bakker summarizes R's opinion as aorists owing their pastness to an imperfect in the context. Bakker then continues, "strictly speaking, the aorist is not even a past tense at all. The sequential function of these aorists, then, seems less a matter of any inherent meaning of the aorist than of its function in context." (1997:31) — kwami (talk) 06:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Anteriority is not an inexpugnable part of the aorist indicative (for example the tragic aorist is not past); neither is aspect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. — kwami (talk) 06:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

This is vandalism. Kwami should be desysopped, for fraudulently pretending to br a neutral closer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Aorist (linguistics) → Aorist — Consensus among editors on this page has been to keep this page at "Aorist". A single editor moved the page ignoring previous consensus and ignored the warnings of an admin to stop moving the page without consensus. Taivo (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support unilateral decision with no attempt to follow the WP:BRDBB7 (talk) 00:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support as proposer. --Taivo (talk) 00:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
• Very strongly oppose and topic ban Taivo ; this article covers only the sense of aorist in theoretic linguistics. If there is a WP:PRIMARYUSAGE of "aorist", this is not it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • And topic ban Taivo. It might indeed be possible to have a single article if it were not for his revert warring. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support per BB7. Original move was done to make a WP:POINT in total disregard of consensus.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Where are the diffs? There was a consensus to split in #Time for "Aorist (Greek)" split?, above; there was no consensus - indeed no discussion - on placement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose, agreeing with Septentrionalis here (no opinion re the demand for a topic ban) in light of the three articles related to this topic. They do appear to be different enough, although overlapping, that a disambiguation page is warranted. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 01:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

(His demand for a topic ban is based solely on the fact that I disagree with him and have accused him of WP:CIVIL violations. --Taivo (talk) 01:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC))

A falsehood. Taivo should be banned because his edits have consisted almost entirely of revert-warring to defend an obscure and error-ridden text. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Pmanderson created two of those articles where there was only Aorist - they are basically Pov-forks made without consensus. Aorist is one single topic and can be treated as such. ·Maunus·ƛ· 01:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I created one of the three articles, not as a POV fork, but in order to explain Greek uses in more detail. — Eru·tuon 01:25, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, struck.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Coming from the outside, I don't care who created the articles; two of them may be a POV fork, or not, but that is an issue to be settled elsewhere, not here. What matters here is that there are 3 articles and an argument about whether one of them can capture the traffic from incoming links to Aorist, or if the traffic should be apportioned according to relevance, by putting a disambiguation page at Aorist and changing the incoming links. I favor the latter. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 01:37, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support: This article describes the broadest sense of the term. — Eru·tuon 01:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Broadest sense does not equal primary topic. Is there a clear primary topic here? If not, then it would appear Aorist should be a disambiguation page. Whether the existing articles should number 2 or 3 is a separate issue. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 01:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support: I don't ride in the CGR bus (those guys have sometimes tried to run over me), and I won't ride in the linguists' limousine (those guys drive around with the blinds down). I ride a scooter and I'm happy to blow smoke in both your faces. However, WP needs a single article on the Aorist - separate articles for separate disciplines can come later when the ideas are expanded. The guys in the limousine have to get out of their comfort zone and negotiate with the guys from the bus - in language that we can all understand. The intro should not include any terms or concepts that provoke inter-disciplinary feuding. McZeus (talk) 02:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Those of us who ride around in a humble Subaru like the idea of a readable introduction from which an earnest young seminarian could derive benefit. Has anybody tried to bring in a perspective from an editor with some Sanskrit expertise? Cynwolfe (talk) 03:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

• • Shouldn't this be a merge? Will the move produce the result McZeus wants? or will it remove all incentive for the limo loungers to negotiate? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
    • I don't support the way this article is written. I am only supporting the revert to the orginal name 'Aorist'. I am not interested in tactical moves to wrong-foot one side or the other. I still believe commonsense will win out in the end though it might take time to get there. McZeus (talk) 03:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
• Note: this page has just been moved by User:Kwamikagami. Hitherto Supports have been for placements at Aorist, Opposes for placements at Aorist (linguistics). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I reverted the move as move warring and a violation of WP:BOLD before seeing this request. I do agree with Sep on one point: I don't see a reason to split the article either. But I'm not opposed enough to object to the split that's been made. — kwami (talk) 06:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion

The three articles. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 01:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

• Aorist (linguistics), a perfective aspect
• Aorist (Ancient Greek), a class of verb forms
• Perfective aspect, also known as aoristic aspect

Fortunately, it is relatively easy to check which of these is more common. This article asserts that the aorist is an aspect, and is not a tense.

• aorist tense has 7,410 (3,500 with Greek) uses in Google Books since 1990
• aorist aspect has 226 uses in Google Books since 1990
• aoristic aspect has 77 uses in Google Books since 1990
• Perfective aspect is much more common that aoristic aspect; but perfective aspect does not claim to be placed at aorist . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The very first book in the Google Books search for "aorist tense" states and tries to explain how aorist tense and perfective aspect (in aorist tense) are different, at least in Bulgarian. That tells me this content dispute exists in reliable sources, which means it has to be dealt with directly here on Misplaced Pages. Is that a fair summary? This is a content dispute that cannot be settled on Misplaced Pages except by explaining as clearly and simply as possible what the dispute is about. Toward that end, I expect that multiple articles, perhaps more than already exist, will be needed to explain these linguistic concepts as applied both within and between languages. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 02:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Doing linguistics by Google Search. I thought I had seen everything. --Taivo (talk) 04:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

There is no "doing linguistics" on Misplaced Pages, only looking it up in reliable sources. Some of those sources are on Google Books. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 04:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

There is also a difference between looking up the random quote (usually out-of-context and often misunderstood) on Google Books and looking at actual books that you've read. --Taivo (talk) 05:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

There is more to Google Books beyond the snippet views you see on the search results page. Preview and full text books show entire pages; full text books are complete scans, as good as a reprint. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 05:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

That's true when the complete text is available. However, for recent texts that is very seldom the case. There are generally missing pages at random intervals, and they may contain context that is necessary to completely follow the text we can see, or more nuanced descriptions. — kwami (talk) 06:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I think there's a confusion here, and I'm not sure even 69.3 has it right. "Looking it up in reliable sources" is what we do to determine the correct title of a page before any disambiguating parentheses. Determining the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, on the other hand, is not an exercise in determining the structure of knowledge in any discipline, but simply of deciding whether prevalent usage of a term favors a single usage enough for it to be the WP:PT. So it is not as simple as an analysis in terms of general/specific, either (and, if we have agreed on nothing else, surely we all appreciate by now how the Greek/IE morphological "tense" is not subsumed in a species-genus relationship under the linguistic notion of aspect).

So, while the complaints about hasty unilateralism may have something to them, I think we need to consider the reasons for having Aorist as a disambiguation page more seriously, apart from our feelings about Septentrionalis' move, and certainly apart from that editor's other words and actions.

To my mind, it's a pretty mild compromise: there is a case to be made for the Greek/IE aorist as the primary topic (we can look at only usage in scholarly journals, apart from the Google Books doubts, and see similar results), so we should accept compromise where it is available. There is nothing false or unencyclopedic or disorienting to the reader who seeks treatment of the topic "aorist" about having that disambiguation page. Maybe I am naively optimistic about the possibility of any consensus here, but I think that the dab at aorist is a good idea. Wareh (talk) 13:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Assuming, just for the sake of the discussion, that most readers want Aorist (Greek), they must make two clicks to get to a dab page and then on to Aorist (Greek). If we use Aorist as it is now, a general page on the term cross-linguistically (which makes logical sense structurally), and place a hatnote to Aorist (Greek) at the very top, then the reader looking for Aorist (Greek) still only has two clicks to get to Aorist and then on to Aorist (Greek). So the dab page solution doesn't make the Aorist (Greek) reader's life any easier or his navigation through Misplaced Pages any shorter. I also personally think that a dab page just for two or three entries is not good structure. --Taivo (talk) 14:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

You have just recapitulated the argument on whether or not to have disambiguation pages. The disadvantage is to the mass of readers who are looking for the aorist tense, in the traditional sense; the most common use of aorist. They are seriously inconvenienced by coming to this bizarre page, which tells them what they are looking for does not exist - although any of several thousand current publications has told them it does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Please leave your catastrophism elsewhere, PMAnderson. Your comment makes no sense whatsoever since the reader looking for aorist in Greek is clearly directed there with the hatnote. --Taivo (talk) 17:01, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Please leave your POV edits elsewhere. Calling this narrow and rare definition "the" aorist is an abuse of the English language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

POV tags

I removed one as two are not required, i could remove both as the editor who tagged the article has not opened a section to discuss the POV issues he feels are in the article. this revert by PMA removed a perfectly good reference which replaced the one which he says failed verification. This revert by Taivo removed the same ref. You guys need to look before reverting and calm down mark nutley (talk) 17:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

This reference is a set of class notes. It does not support the article for two reasons:

• it speaks of "perfective tenses"
• it includes in them the perfect and the pluperfect, in contrast with the "present-stem and aorist aspects". It is therefore denying that the aorist is perfective, because it is using "perfective" in a different sense than our article perfective aspect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec)My removal of your reference was unintentional because we were reverting at nearly the same time and so the information got caught. Sorry. But your reference is incomplete. The citation to "Perfective tenses" needs to be filled out (author, title, publisher, page, etc.) before it will stand up to WP:V. Just posting a PDF of a few pages without the critical citation information doesn't pass muster as a WP:RS. It's an appropriate reference, mind you, but we need the full citation. --Taivo (talk) 17:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The true situation could be sourced from Shopen: not that the aorist is the perfective aspect, but that Greek (and Sanskrit) use aorist-stem forms to express the perfective aspect - and for other purposes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I am unsure were you get that we require author for wp:rs to be fulfilled. It is published by The University of Edinburgh and is fine as cited. mark nutley (talk) 17:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec)On second reading, I agree with PMAnderson that this reference, while clearly calling aorist an aspect, distinguishes it from perfective. It also confuses "perfect" and "perfective". While it might be from a publication, its brevity seems to indicate that it might be a very nicely printed set of class notes. Without a complete citation it's impossible to tell its provenance. While it supports the use of the term "aspect" for aorist, it doesn't support the use of the term "perfective", especially since it confuses perfective with "perfect". --Taivo (talk) 17:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Comrie, while deploring this terminology, notes that it is not uncommon. It's not a confusion, simply yet another (perhaps undesirable) set of terms. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Requiring author and publication data for a proper verifiable citation is Research Paper Writing 101. --Taivo (talk) 17:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

This is not a research paper :) and not everything need by given to full-fillwp:v just that what is being cited is verifiable, but i added another ref which i believe does the trick mark nutley (talk) 17:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

"Verifiability" is not just "I can click on a link". Verifiability means being able to evaluate the quality of a source and understand the history of the material. That means following the standard and time-tested practices of writing a research paper--identifying authors, titles, dates, publishers, etc. as much as possible. Posting on the University of Edinburgh website does not constitute "publishing" or provide any measure of reliability or verifiability. --Taivo (talk) 17:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that we are finally converging. The page from Dahl is here; +T = transformativity, which would appear to be the inceptive and ingressive aorist; Dahl speaks much of Aktionsart.

If this is to be the predominant article, it should at some point explain that "tense" has two meanings, and which one it has chosen; so I approve of the addition of aorist tense to the lead.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Rijksbaron

Sep claims that Rijksbaron analyzes the aorist as having inherent tense, and gives an out-of-context citation that appears to support that. However, we also have quotes of Rijksbaron saying that is has no inherent tense, and two other scholars summarizing R's position as being exactly that. So, two Greek scholars summarizing R's views vs. Sep's analysis of R's views. Can we work out what's actually going on here, so we can operate at a higher level than edit warring? — kwami (talk) 19:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I observe - and quote Rijksbaron = that he denies that the aorist has only aspect. He would also deny that it has only temporality; although he says that the meaning of the aorist stem is anteriority, that doesn't have to mean that the forms always mean that. They don't.

This is Kwami's reading of a second-hand account of Rijksbaron's views - against what Rijksbaron actually says. That he denies both extreme views is not surprising; he is interested in describing Greek, not imposing an abstraction upon it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

In reading the relevant quote that PMAnderson provided in the article, Rijksbaron says that anteriority is an implicature. That's exactly what we have been saying all along--that aorist is an aspect and any tense function is only an implicature. --Taivo (talk) 19:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

He does not say that anteriority is an implicature; he says it is the meaning of the stem. Tmplicature is the wording of a source summarizing him, which I am taking on trust from Kwami. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The footnote in question is justifying Rijksbaron's decision to call it "the aorist tense-stem". He denies that the aorist is (by essence) an aspect as clearly as language can put such a thing; it often has an aspect, as with Bulgarian. . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

This edit summary shows an inability to understand "neither A nor B" which is extremely frustrating. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

"Rijkbaron has also denied, elsewhere, that anteriority is a necessary part of the aorist tense in the language; it a strong ". I can read. You don't get any more clear than that--"anteriority" (past) is not a necessary part of the aorist, it a strong implicature". If "past/anteriority" is only implied, then aorist is an aspect with tense only implied. The language seems pretty clear to me. At the least, Rijksbaron is contradictory. --Taivo (talk) 20:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

If "past/anteriority" is only implied, then aorist is an aspect with tense only implied is entirely Taivo's assumption; there is no such necessity. The aorist is (of necessity) neither a tense nor an aspect; it can be either, it tends to be both, as the narrative aorist is. Taivo's "logic" is incompatible with the fact that he calls the aorist stem "the aorist tense-stem" (since anteriority is the root meaning). Unsurprisingly, this position is supported by his detailed analysis. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not my assumption at all, it is Rijksbaron's statement as quoted in your footnote: "R denied that anteriority is a necessary part of the aorist--it is a strong implicature". No assumption is required. That statement is as plain as day. If past (tense) is only implied, then aorist isn't a tense. I don't see how you can interpret that statement in any other way than the plain words that R wrote. And, by the way, you've just burned your third revert for the day. Admins are well aware of your edit warring here already. --Taivo (talk) 20:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean that Kwami is prepared to improperly block to defend the text he has already abused? Doubtless; if so, let him watch for his adminship. I have intentionally offered new and expanded text every time to replace the text the two of you have reverted.

The aorist isn't a "tense"; that does not require that it be an aspect. The stem, Rijksbaron expressly holds, is a tense-stem; this is not contradictory, merely complex. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

• This edit is more reversion; but -as far as I can tell - the edit summary is a deliberate falsehood. Where else does the lead say that the aorist can be a "tense"? Indeed for an article which cites Comrie's direct assertion on the subject so often, this text is remarkably coy on the whole subject. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Taivo, that's the reason I'd like to get more context for what R said. He isn't necessarily contradicting himself. He could have decided that his earlier take on the aorist was mistaken, in which case we should be able to find somewhere he says that, or perhaps by 'past' he means absolute past tense, and is claiming that the aorist isn't (absolute) past, but instead anterior (relative past). We current report that R contradicts himself; if he's that unreliable, we shouldn't quote him at all, but I suspect that the problem may be a lack of context. — kwami (talk) 06:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. With the evidence we have, Rijksbaron has written two contradictory things--"aorist isn't aspect" and "aorist isn't tense", so he shouldn't be quoted at all if that's the case and we have no further context. --Taivo (talk) 06:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

We have effectively universal agreement that the aorist is either an aspect or a tense-aspect, so I suspect that our take of R's former claim is a misunderstanding on our part. Since we have at least two other good sources citing R, it would seem that he is a notable scholar. Perhaps we could restrict ourselves to summaries of his positions from those other scholars? That would fit with our general preference for 2ary sources. — kwami (talk) 07:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Is Kwami capable of reporting a text accurately?

The aorist is a combination - or strictly a set of combinations - of "tense" and aspect; that does have universal agreement, because it is the case. These are regions in the plane spanned by "tense" as one axis and aspect as the other; if "tense-aspect" means no more than this - and that is little enough - it is more or less true; it leaves out the interaction with mood. Some sources, discussing the aorist cursorily, may oversimplify this; it is easy to do.

But the "reasoning" from this to "the aorist must be a (pure) tense or a (pure) mood" is as fallacious as it is unsupported. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Plain English

The argument isn't going anywhere. How about drafting in plain English a very short introduction aimed at a very simple level of meaning? Then you can develop the concepts separately in your own sections. e.g

Aorist is a grammatical term used for a unique form of the verb found in certain languages such as ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Bulgarian etc. The term comes from Ancient Greek Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) meaning "without limits, undefined" and, as the name implies, it characterizes a form of the verb that is not subject to the usual constraints that apply to other forms of the verb such as the 'future tense' and 'past tense'. etc

You should be able to construct something like that in such a way as to get around your major differences and so as not to frighten off readers with a load of inscrutable jargon. McZeus (talk) 22:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

That might be a nice start. The real problem, however, is that there is a single obstructionist editor who will edit war to get his way. --Taivo (talk) 23:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Well that observation won't help. I'm sure he doesn't want to spend any more time on this than you do. I'll copy the text below so you can start working on it. McZeus (talk) 23:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC) DRAFT

Aorist is a grammatical term used for related forms of the verb found in certain Indo-European languages such as ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Bulgarian etc. The term comes from Ancient Greek Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) meaning "without limits, undefined" and, as the name implies, it characterizes a form of the verb that is not subject to the usual constraints that apply to other forms of the verb such as the 'future tense' and 'past tense'. By analogy, it also is applied to unrelated forms which perform functions similar to those of the Indo-European aorist.

The problem I have with that is, by attempting to water it down until it no longer offends Sep, there is no substance left. We should note right off that the aorist is a perfective and that it's aspectual. I also don't care for "unique"; we could accurately say that the English past tense is "unique", but we wouldn't actually be saying anything if we did so. And actually, if taken literally, it's false: the aorist in ancient Greek, modern Greek, Bulgarian, etc. are not the same thing; each is arguably "unique", but taken together they are not. — kwami (talk) 00:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Then drop unique- since the aorist is not unique in any language which has both sigmatic and root-stem aorists. This is pointless quibbling. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that it is just 'Sep' who is opposed to your edit. Numerous voices here have sought compromise but it still hasn't happened. Please try to think outside the box that you are in at the moment or we will be here forever. McZeus (talk) 01:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

`I think that draft an improvement over the present text, although I hope McZeus will consider whether we have, in the course of improving accuracy over the last 24 hours, also improved clarity. I would prefer something a little more technical and concise than McZeus' draft, but it is closer to what we should be saying in a lead than paragraphs about "perfective aspect". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Well this sounds positive. Can you show us how you would edit my little piece? Personally I thinks it's best to come up with something very simple first and then add to it little by little as good faith is built up. What else would you add/change? McZeus (talk) 02:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I have performed this edit already. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say by "not subject to the usual constraints that apply to other forms of the verb such as the 'future tense' and 'past tense'." That has no linguistic meaning. --Taivo (talk) 02:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

He means, and is attempting to put in plain English, that the aorist does not "express temporality" as the past and future would. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

That's your reading, but there are other possibilities and I'd like confirmation from Amphitryoniades/McZeus before proposing a different wording. --Taivo (talk) 02:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Then go ahead and express any one of them more clearly and in plain English; it is a sound test of genuine understanding whether one can express an idea without the scaffolding of technical language. If it's the wrong one, I'm sure McZeus will let us know. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Taivo, the meaning doesn't have to be specified - especially since it's the specific meanings that are the source of the disputes here. Meanings can be developed in the later sections of the article. So if you think the wording can support your interpretation, why not leave it as it is? If you feel a real need to change it, please use plain English and aim for generalities. McZeus (talk) 03:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Amphitryoniades/McZeus, the problem is that I don't know what you intended by that sentence--it's meaningless in a linguistic sense. I'd be happy to work on your plain English idea as long as accuracy is not sacrificed, but the sentence in question has no linguistic meaning. What was your thinking? --Taivo (talk) 04:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

IMO the lede of an article should explain what the article is about. It's fine to use some jargon with a note that it will be explained in the text for those unfamiliar with it, or give a parenthetical explaining that X is basically a Y, but IMO we shouldn't just say that the article is about a 'thing', and that the reader will have to read the rest of the article to figure out what that thing is. That's more appropriate to a forum like Wikibooks. An article on chemistry or biology will use a minimal amount of jargon in the lede, linked to the appropriate articles, and sometimes explain that jargon in the text if it's particularly difficult. — kwami (talk) 04:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Conflict resolution typically requires the opposing parties to agree to some general propositions and then try to work out something more detailed from there, or at least agree to disagree. A lede is a general overview of the subject. So there is plenty of scope for conflict resolution there. But your heart has to be in it. McZeus (talk) 06:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem for me is understanding what the conflict is about. The issue seems to have shifted dramatically from one complaint to another, so I've rather given up trying to please Sep. I do, however, agree that the lede should use as little jargon as possible while accurately summarizing the article. — kwami (talk) 07:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

This response sounds more promising. All academic disciplines have to interface with the general community, if only to justify the research grants they receive, and you should see this as good practice. The conflict here is over the perception that this article is written almost entirely from a Linguist's point of view. You might think the classicists here are out of date but many of the voices here belong to practising teachers. They think your approach is too exclusive and it conflicts with the messages they are trying to get across to their students. The article has to be shared between disciplines. That means sticking to generalities wherever there is some issue that you can't agree on. That's why I think the lede offers the best opportunity for some progress here. McZeus (talk) 07:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Thus my approach in just calling it the "aorist". However, we have multiple classicist sources which note that it's not a tense at the same time they call it a tense. That may be fine for their students, but would be confusing for a more general audience. IMO we should note what people agree it is (an aspect, with debatable elements of tense), that it's called a 'tense' in much of the traditional lit, and then just call it the 'aorist' in the text without appending either 'tense' or 'aspect'. — kwami (talk) 08:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this approach. --Taivo (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with this approach. The question of polyvalent vocabulary is best met head-on; but that could be dealt with by a simple paragraph explaining the problem. But the belief that the aorist is "an aspect with debateable elements of case" is a falsehood; the claim that it is generally agreed is an unsourced lie. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course you will disagree with anything that isn't in your POV. A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (1934, Broadman Press) (pg. 343): "The term tense...is from the French word temps, 'time', and is a misnomer and a hindrance to the understanding of this aspect of the verb-form." (Translation--what is called "tense" in Greek isn't related to time.) "Indeed it cannot be shown of any verb-form that it had originally any reference to time. We must therefore dismiss time from our minds in the study of the forms of the tenses as well as in the matter of syntax." (Translation--forget "tense/time" in discussing the Greek verb-forms.) Robertson wrote before the separate linguistic terminologies of "aspect" and "tense" had come into use, but his message is crystal clear--Greek verb-forms primarily mark aspect rather than tense and tense is only a late addition to some forms. --Taivo (talk) 18:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

That's one side; that would appear to be the view that Rijksbaron calls unsound, in the quotation already cited. That there are cranks on the matter we already know. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Continued misuse of tags

PMAnderson continues to throw misleading and false tags around in pursuit of his obstructive edit warring against this article. These two tags are especially laughable. In case your dictionary isn't available, PMAnderson, "punctiliar" means "single event" and "inceptive" means "an action which is to be commenced". Just file them in your word-a-day rolodex so that you can practice them tomorrow. --Taivo (talk) 04:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

That's lacking in productive civility and beneath Taivo's customary dignity. And also inadvertently funny, as anyone familiar with PMA's vocabulary knows. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I let the humor and irony of PMAnderson's needless tagging of that get the better of me. But what is truly unproductive is his continued use of unnecessary tags as an argumentative device. --Taivo (talk) 14:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

ancient Greek perfect and pluperfect

I'm going to ask a question that may be irrelevant to this page: how would a linguist analyze the ancient Greek perfect and pluperfect tenses (or "tenses")? My grammar books describe the perfect tense (e.g. πεπαίδευκα, 'I have educated') as having present time and completed aspect, and the pluperfect tense (e.g. ἐπεπαιδεύκη, 'I had educated') as having past time, completed aspect. This article (currently) describes the aorist as expressing a perfective aspect, and that article says that the perfective expresses completion. Perfect (grammar) doesn't help me much; is it the case that perfective and perfect are considered different aspects, or what? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

(added some extra after ec) Perfect and perfective are different things, but, unfortunately, with names that are too close for comfort. Neither are tenses. Perfect and pluperfect mark an event as occurring in relation to another event rather than in relation to time (which is what tense marks). Most linguists comfortably call them aspects, but there are some linguists who tend to treat them as a third category instead of tense or aspect. Perfects say that something happens before another action. Thus, a perfect is "I have eaten already, so I don't want to go to lunch"--the main action is "I don't want" and the eating of the perfect happened before that. A pluperfect is similar, but the main action is in the past--"I had eaten already, so I didn't want to go to lunch". The future perfect is the same, but the main action is in the future--"I will have eaten already, so I won't want to go to lunch". This is often described as "a past action that has present consequences". That's a traditional way of talking about certain inferential presents. Thus, a person might say "I have eaten" using a perfect. The inference is therefore "I'm not hungry" even though that might not be part of the sentence. Therefore the description of the perfect as something that happens before something else is still valid. The connection between perfect and perfective (completive) is not always there, so that a perfect doesn't always refer to a completed or perfective action, thus, "I have been eating, so I'm not hungry", for example, where the perfect is actually combined with an imperfective rather than a perfective. Hope this helps. --Taivo (talk) 04:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, they are different things. Perfective (PFV) is a prototypical aspect: it's a POV of the action as a whole, without internal detail. A perfect is quite different. Comrie only covers it in his Aspect because there isn't anyplace better to cover it, but it isn't purely aspectual, and it isn't completive either . Assuming Greek perfects are like perfects in other languages, which I believe they are, they involve both tense (position in time) and aspect (how one views time): present perfect (your 'perfect') is a prior event with continued relevance in the present; past perfect ('pluperfect') is a prior event with continued relevance at some time in the past. That's why it makes no sense to say something like "I've lost my wallet yesterday". A PFV has no such implication of continued relevance; "I lost (PFV) my wallet yesterday" isn't just acceptable, but the normal way of saying it in a language with a PFV.

I believe the reason the words are so confusingly similar is that the two forms were conflated in Latin. You do see other terms; I've seen 'anterior' and 'retrospective' for perfect, though 'anterior' is more commonly used for relative past tense and so introduces a new set of confusions, and both are so uncommon that they aren't of much practical use. — kwami (talk) 05:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I cannot share Kwami's belief that Greek perfect-stem forms are very "like perfects in other languages." The understanding of its time/aspect characteristics accepted universally among Classicists cannot be expressed through the English examples given as equivalents in these two responses. (Taivo doesn't mention Greek so is perhaps only intending to comment on the English perfect?) Wareh (talk) 13:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

To footnote Wareh, I would point out the difference between the Latin and Greek perfect. (Not sure 'conflate' is the right way to think of this.) Cynwolfe (talk) 13:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

"Perfects" are a universal linguistic category and therefore saying that Greek perfects aren't like anyone else's is a misstatement. The edges of usage of the perfect from language to language may be a little fuzzy, but the basic form itself (obviously not the physical form) is a universal of human language. So using English examples to illustrate what perfect means and applying that to what perfect means in Greek is neither unusual nor inappropriate. --Taivo (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

If you mean to say that the perfect and pluperfect tenses would be used in ordinary Classical Greek discourse to convey the same meanings as English (plu)perfect, that is a serious misstatement. In fact, outside of fairly narrow circumstances, the aorist (our putative main subject here) would be used to express the time and aspect information contained in English (plu)perfects. The belief that the English/Greek "perfect" differ only "at the edges" would be an obstacle preventing effective understanding of Classical Greek authors in Greek. I do recognize the difference between linguistic categories and habits of usage/expression, but these incongruities are too pronounced in Classical Greek not to reflect consequential differences. I'll leave it for a "proper linguist" who also recognizes this interesting fact to determine the answer to Akhilleus' question and to consider how much the shared label is a case of confusing homonymy. Wareh (talk) 15:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll leave the incivility about "proper linguist" aside, but you've fallen into the trap laid so many times by PMAnderson that "perfect" and "pluperfect" are "tenses". They are not. A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Broadman Press, 1934) states (concerning the perfect) (pg 357) that "It does fairly well if we do not think of time in connection with the tense...The completed state does not of itself have reference to present time." Robertson also states (pg. 893), "The aorist (punctiliar) represents an action as finished, the linear present as durative, but the perfect presents a completed state or condition. When the action was completed the perfect tense does not say." This is another way of describing the perfect as I did above, "A past action that has present consequences." Thus tetheamai (John 1:32) in the mouth of John the Baptist refers to the baptism of Jesus some weeks before, but he still has the vision. He (Robertson) draws the following to illustrate the perfect (•-----)--a completed act that "continues into the time of speaking". He has written a couple dozen pages on the meaning and uses of the perfect, but all have the same implication--a completed act that has current consequences or effect. This is exactly what I said above--that a sentence such as "I have eaten" implies, even if not overtly stated, "I am not hungry now"; just as "I had eaten" implies "I was not hungry at the point of time specified in the context". --Taivo (talk) 15:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I now know what it's like to go through the looking-glass: PMA needs lessons in vocabulary-building, and Wareh The Notorious C.O.O.L. is rude. Such hurdles of communication are unlikely to be overcome. I find this ironic regarding an article on language. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I think what I wrote is consistent with the important difference being mainly aspectual. I am only replying to say that you may have misunderstood the plain meaning of "proper linguist": it was to disclaim that status for myself. If you wish to find an uncivil insult (which I don't think would be very WP:AGF), please find it in "who also recognizes this interesting fact." I do think there are important facts about the Greek perfect, which are both relevant to Akhilleus' question and ignored by the responses preceding mine. (Alternatively, perhaps you find incivility in the mere fact that I used quotation marks; this was to distance myself from the authority to confer this label on another person: the quotations mean, in the sense others have been applying the notion here, while I am presently doing my best to avoid pretending to judge its application to them. But punctuation seems slender grounds for announcing your judicious decision to set my incivility aside.)

I would be happy to speak more privately to anyone wishing to discuss the Greek perfect; this isn't feeling like the place for any more contributions from me. Wareh (talk) 16:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Wareh, I must apologize for reading your comment as an incivility directed at me. With PMAnderson throwing personal insults around like candy at a Christmas party, my skin gets a little thin here. I understand now what you meant by "proper linguist" and I should have assumed good faith on your part. --Taivo (talk) 23:39, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that the difference between the Greek and the English perfects is that the present relevance expressed by the Greek must be related to the meaning of the verb — thus the implication of the Greek perfect "I have eaten" would be "something is eaten up" rather than "I am full", because "to become full" is not the meaning of the word "to eat". I have not read this anywhere, so it may be totally wrong, but this does seem to describe the examples of perfect verbs in Smyth. — Eru·tuon 15:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

That would be an interesting difference. (BTW, "something is eaten up" could be the relevant factor in English too, given the proper context.) Grammatical categories differ from language to language; this is true for tense, number, case, gender, any number of things. What I described above is a fairly typical perfect, but many languages don't have such a category, and others may have something that is only marginally a perfect. — kwami (talk) 16:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

• "Perfects" are a universal linguistic category and therefore saying that Greek perfects aren't like anyone else's is a misstatement. That's Taivo's metaphysics, not mine. We are not here to engage in a priori reasoning - that's synthesis, unless it is consensus of the sources. Here it is not - or the sources would not spend so long explaining the very real differences between the Greek and the English perfects.
• The feigned(?) inability to understand that "pluperfect tense" means the portion of the conjugation of παιδεύω that contains ἐπεπαιδεύκη, is a refusal to communicate. Is this were merely a lack of fluency without the crutch of a sesquipedalian jargon? or is it an insistence on a private understanding not shared with the reader? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

edits to lede

Made a few edits to Sep's version of the lede, which overall I find acceptable. Given the cantankerous nature of this discussion so far, I figured I'd better explain myself with more than an edit summary. (I'm not going to get into his misstatements above; they can speak for themselves.)

• AFAIK, the Bulgarian aorist is not cognate with the Greek or Sanskrit. (That at least is what I took "related" to mean.)
• the PFV meaning isn't "often" there; we have multiple refs that it's inherent.
• it's not PFV in the 'grammatical tradition' of Greek, but in Greek.
• This statement was false:

Within theoretical linguistics, the difference in terminology between calling this an aspect or a tense hinges on whether aorist is primarily a marker of completion or manner of performance ("aspect"), or of time ("tense"), or both.

People don't call it a tense because they think it's not aspectual; they call it a tense because the term is traditional. Also, the line misdefines both 'aspect' and 'tense'.

• both tense and aspect encode time
• this note was ridiculous:

this last claim is disputed explicitly by Albert Rijksbaron, The syntax and semantics of the verb in classical Greek : an introduction §1, n.6: he chooses to call the Greek verb-stems (including the aorist stem) tense-stems, explaining that "it is often stated that Greek had no proper means of expressing relative time and that the stems are really aspect stems In general, this position is untenable"; however, Rijkbaron has also denied, elsewhere, that anteriority is a necessary part of the aorist tense in the language; it is a strong implicature.

We shouldn't be making Rijksbaron look ridiculous. If he's credible, we're probably misunderstanding him; if he's not, we shouldn't be citing him.

— kwami (talk) 18:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

• Of course the Bulgarian aorist is cognate; it's the common Slavic aorist, reformulated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a ref for that? I don't have access to my library, but I remember reading conflicting claims on that. — kwami (talk) 20:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Why, yes, Comrie and Corbett, Slavonic languages, the section on Bulgarian. Such disputes are commonplace over Indo-European verbs, all of which have been regrouped at some point since PIE; they are usually purely verbal arguments on where the line between "descent with some analogical reformulation" and "new formation" lies. Since both qualify as related, the details here - whatever they may be - belong in the article body, not the lead. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I took the opposite conclusion from those words: Proto-Slavonic had three different aorist formations. Two of them, the root (or simple) and sigmatic aorists, were relics inherited from Proto-Indo-European. The third type appeared alongside and eventually replaced the two older types, thus becoming the only productive aorist formation in Slavonic. — kwami (talk) 20:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

• We shouldn't be making Rijksbaron look ridiculous. If he's credible, we're probably misunderstanding him; if he's not, we shouldn't be citing him Shorter Kwami: Only sources that support my point of view count. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

These have been good edits to the lead. As with all collaborative effots, especially contentious ones, garbage had accumulated like tree rings. --Taivo (talk) 18:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

this piece of revert-warring is peculiar. First Kwami edits, and comments here in approval; then he reverts, on the basis of his understanding of a book he hasn't seen. I am restoring - and will consider asking that Kwami be banned from this article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you should be banned. I should be banned. Taivo should be banned. We should all get permission from you before editing, or be banned.

No, just one of the two of you. Without your tag-teaming, the other will actually have to come up with novel wording - or convince somebody but his partner; either would be an improvement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The aorist is a "pure grammatical tense"? This is simple obstruction. You can either accept a reasonable version of your mostly reasonable lede to the article, or we can revert back to where we started. Your choice.

The Rijksbaron footnote is ridiculous. There is no need to introduce "tense-stem" in the lede (I though you wanted to clean up the jargon?); we then say that R both asserts and denies a point which has nothing to do with the point being cited. Yes I'll delete it. You're also edit warring to introduce other falsehoods which have been debunked on this Talk page. Come up with something rational. You might want to also clean up the mess that you left. — kwami (talk) 20:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

You have debunked nothing; declamation about books you haven't read adds buncombe. I would take out the whole sentence about tense v. aspect; the whole thing amounts to "doctors disagree" - but I am waiting to see if McZeus finds it helpful.

I do thank Kwami for seeing an omitted "not", now inserted. As for "tense stem"; it's what Rijksbaron expressly calls them. Kwami may find this ridiculous; the proper venue for that, if he has a proof, is a journal article; if not, write Rijksbaron, not Misplaced Pages. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

By that argument, we should restore all of the linguistic jargon that you object to, and if you don't like it, you can write to the authors. Come on, we're pretending to be rational beings here. I don't find the term ridiculous, I just think it's ridiculous to further confuse matters by putting it in the lede when it serves no purpose as part of the lede. — kwami (talk) 21:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The entire sentence serves little purpose. But if it is to be included, it should represent all sides of this verbal war: those who regard the aorist as being an aspect or nearly so; those who regard it as a mixture; and those who regard it as a tense, largely a tense, or often a tense. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The disputed sentence follows.

However, it is not a pure grammatical tense in the linguistic sense of the word (marking a position in time) but is either aspectual<:ref>Andrew L. Sihler, New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin, Oxford University Press, 1995, ISBN 0195083458, p. 445: "the aorist ... not a tense, but so called"</ref><:ref>Zerwick, 1963, Biblical Greek : "the word « tenses » is put in inverted commas because the forms to be treated are but inaccurately called « tenses ». « tenses » express the notion of time"</ref> or a combination of tense and aspect,<:ref name="Comrie12"/><:ref>Eugene Van Ness Goetchius, 1965, The Language of the New Testament, p 75: "In traditional grammatical terminology the imperfect and aorist are called tenses; they are actually sets of forms each of which (in the indicative mood) expresses (1) past time and (2) the particular aspect proper to the set."</ref> or the developments of a tense-stem.<:ref> Albert Rijksbaron, The syntax and semantics of the verb in classical Greek : an introduction §1, n.6: he chooses to call the Greek verb-stems (including the aorist stem) tense-stems, explaining that "it is often stated that Greek had no proper means of expressing relative time and that the stems are really aspect stems In general, this position is untenable"; however, Rijkbaron has also denied, elsewhere, that anteriority is a necessary part of the aorist tense in the language; it is a strong implicature.</ref><:ref>Heerak Kim, 2008, Intricately Connected: Biblical Studies, Intertextuality, and Literary Genre : "there is really no sense of tense but only of aspect which distinguishes the present from the aorist"</ref> In some treatments, the aorist in general is called an aspect, but the aorist in the indicative mood is called a tense;<:ref name="Beetham362"/>

As for the first tag, we can either say "it's not a tense", which is true according to all of our sources, or we can say "it is not a pure tense or even a tense at all". However, saying "it's not a pure tense" suggests that it's partially a tense, and many of our sources deny that.

Also, the aorist isn't either PFV or punctiliar or inceptive as distinct aspects. An 'aspect' is a distinct grammatical form. It's a single aspect, which may have those readings. — kwami (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Please don't aggravate revert-warring by lying; there are sources which speak of the aorist as a tense - in both senses of that much-abused word - and there are sources which deny it. The proper response is to describe both.

Kwami's last sentence is incredible: it appears to define the aorist aspect as "whatever the aorist may happen to do". This makes "the aorist is an aspect" an unfalsifiable sentence - the hallmark of pseudo-science wherever found. It will take more than Kwami's word to make me believe that linguistics has become a pseudo-science. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I've asked this before, and you've failed to respond. I'll try again: please supply a single source that describes the aorist as a tense. — kwami (talk) 23:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I respond - as I respond every time: Comrie and Rijksbaron. Neither calls it an unalloyed tense; but nobody giving more than a sentence to the question describes it as an unalloyed aspect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you purposefully misunderstanding me? I've noted multiple times that 'past perfective' is a common description of the aorist. We even have that in the lede. But you've been arguing that it's only a tense, and that is unsourced. If you don't actually disagree, what in the world are you arguing about? — kwami (talk) 00:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

PMAnderson, A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (1934, Broadman Press), which I have cited in the article, talks in great detail and at length about how aorist is not related to time, therefore is not a tense. His sections on aorist are pp. 345-350 and pp. 831-877. --Taivo (talk) 00:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

That's one point of view, certainly - from 75 years ago. I'm sure it's one of the books Rijksbaron has in mind when he calls that view unsound. That's no justification for asserting that Dahl says so - when he does not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:17, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

A few other refs that the aorist is a perfective aspect. (I was going to replace Sep's dickish tag with this before the article was protected.) Egbert Bakker, 1997, Grammar as interpretation: Greek literature in its linguistic contexts‎, p 21; Constantine Campbell, 2007, Verbal aspect, the indicative mood, and narrative: soundings in the Greek of the New Testament, chapter 4; Martin Haspelmath, ed., 2001, Typologie des langues et les universaux linguistiques, 1:779; Donald Mastronarde, 1993, Introduction to Attic Greek; Buist Fanning, 1990, Verbal Aspect in New Testament Greek; Heerak Kim, 2008, Intricately Connected: : Biblical Studies, Intertextuality, and Literary Genre; Maria Napoli, 2006, Aspect and actionality in Homeric Greek; Brook Pearson, 2001, Corresponding Sense: Paul, Dialectic, and Gadamer, p 75; Stanley Porter, 1992, Idioms of the Greek New Testament; Roger Woodward, "Attic Greek", in The Ancient Languages of Europe, p 33; Max Zerwick, 1963, Biblical Greek. — kwami (talk) 00:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

A modest proposal

Since K and T can't let anybody else edit the lead without revert-warring - I believe they are each about 6RR for now - I have removed everything but the simple version. It may at least be consensus.

If they will leave this alone, we can build up from there: they can start by providing evidence that the "punctiliar" and the ingressive aorist are the same thing. Ou peithomai One is a undivided single action, the other is a change. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you'll have to take issue with Perfective aspect as well. There the punctual (called "momentary") and inceptive (described as the beginning of an action), as well as the resultative (defined as the end of an action) are described as variations on the same aspect. — Eru·tuon 22:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Not surprising, considering who's been editing it; one reason Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. But one swamp at a time, as Hercules said at Hydra. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

reversions

Taivo:

• 04:36 September 15
• 21:39 A total reversion to restore part of a text.
• 21:43
• 23:04

• This edit is not a reversion; it merely makes a book assert always when it says usually - on the grounds that other books say always.

Kwami:

• 18:15
• 20:52
• 20:53
• 21:01
  • undone 21:03
• 22:04 partial revert.

This list includes only the reversions; a similar list for me would have two entries. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Yesterday you made the claim that your reverts don't count since you always changed or added something. Another example of hypocrisy, PMAnderson. If you agree with an edit, it's not edit warring, but if you don't.... You will also notice that I have not reverted the same thing each time. If you would stop pushing your singular and unsupported POV and actually discuss on the Talk Page rather than engage in incivility or personal attacks, then you might find a willing ear (or more than one). As it is, you don't listen to anyone else unless they are parroting your POV. --Taivo (talk) 23:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Look at the history of this talk page - and say that with a straight face; I have discussed more even than either of the two of you.

Yes, you have reverted any effort to improve or tag the page. That's what WP:3RR intends to make impossible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I listen to Cynwolfe, Akhilleus, Wareh, Erutonon, McZeus, and Radagast; I've replied even to you and Kwami - and thanked you when you had a point. That's an awful lot of parrots; closer to consensus against you. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Both of these opinionated editors have now exceeded four reversions; I don't think I have, but neutral eyes may see differently. In any case, if they are warned off, I intend to take 24 hours away from the article; my intention and interest has always been to see what would happen without these revert warriors. Radagast was perfectly happy to work on this article before they hijacked it; I encourage him to try again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

For those who are interested, the discussion is at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Kwamikagami_and_User:Taivo. Comments are welcome; those who are drawn here by claims of abuse should note that this page is full of such self-pity - for example, the assault on Wareh, a couple sections up. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

There was no "assault on Wareh". Perhaps you can read more carefully? --Taivo (talk) 13:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

He thinks otherwise; it is less than a day than he objected to Taivo's treatement of him; then again Taivo's first reply to Wareh's learned and intelligent comments was that he failed to understand the fundamental linguistics of the issue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Protected II

I have reverted to a version by Radagast from mid august before this debacle began. You should ALL start taking on a completely different attitutde to cooperation, seek mediation or simply leave the article as it was. I am not going to unprotect before you have taken steps to solve rather than escalate this conflict.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:22, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

That will be satisfactory. It is clearer and less inaccurate than the text of a hour ago. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Finding a consensus

Does anyone besides Sep, Taivo, and myself have a problem with the article as it was here, prior to protection? (Sep, let's leave space for someone else to talk here.) Are there any factual claims in dispute? Are there any opinions that are distorted, or marginal views given undue weight? — kwami (talk) 00:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Have you notified Cynwolfe, Wareh, Amphitrioniades and Akhilleus - all of whom have found it at least obscure - or are you hoping they will miss this notice? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

As well as those of the other POV--Erutuon and MarkNutley. --Taivo (talk) 13:10, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm mystified as to why this article has turned into such a battleground. I'd like to make three points.

• Readers first. I'm convinced that the solution is to think about who's most likely to be coming to the article and what they might be looking for, especially in the introductory section. If the first paragraph is unhelpful or opaque with jargon, people won't read on. Professional linguists or grad students are not going to be coming to Misplaced Pages to learn about the aorist; the article is most likely to attract language learners, either in an introductory course or self-taught, including seminarians with little or no background in linguistics preparing themselves for New Testament studies, Latin students moving on to Greek, and those studying modern Bulgarian, or amateur scholars scratching around in Indo-European stuff. If editors really care about the article rather than "winning," they'll focus on helping readers.
• You're all smart people. Using civility tactics is really beneath the editors taking a lead role here. He who is without sin should cast the first stone. The leading players have all demonstrated their intellectual competence — a rare thing on a talk page this contested, where it usually becomes apparent that at least one faction is just pushing a POV without actually knowing what they're talking about. Here, there seems to be a genuine difference of approach between linguists and classicists. I'm skeptical of mediation because the topic is so technical. I don't think it can be ironed out by somebody who doesn't know even superficially what an aorist is. If there's a mediator who's a sane and gentle Indo-Europeanist with feet firmly on the ground and Sanskrit in the heart, maybe. Has anyone tried to recruit experienced editors who can represent an ecumenical approach to language conceptualization? (Calvert Watkins isn't a secret Misplaced Pages editor, is he?) And if such cavalry arrive, are the editors here going to start shooting at them as soon as they imagine they see their colors?
• The best articles are well-structured. One deficiency in the WP process is that there's no collaborative "pre-writing." In addition to the problem of an accessible lede, arriving at an outline would clarify how the article should be built. What should the subheads be? In what order? Alas, I've seen no evidence that a talk page can generate an outline. But it's only logical that the most deeply technical or theoretical material should come toward the bottom of the article, by which time the reader who's made it that far has been prepared to understand it.

Just observations from someone who's stopped by now and then in hope of progress. Anecdotally, I'd offer this: I studied several languages in college, but I didn't quite get what "aspect" meant until I had to grapple with the aorist in learning ancient Greek. It's possible or even likely that the readers coming here will be in a similar situation. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I have no great factual disagreements with the intro section before the reversion, but the language was overly wordy, and the purpose of the various paragraphs wasn't clear. Each paragraph seemed to be trying to explain several things at once. This is what we most need to fix. Creating an outline would help a great deal. — Eru·tuon 14:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

1. ἀόριστος. Liddell, Henry George; Scott, Robert; A Greek–English Lexicon at the Perseus Project
2. OED, s.v. "aorist"
3. In the terms of theoretical linguistics, that means that the aorist is not a pure grammatical tense, but is an almost pure perfective aspect.
4. Cite error: The named reference Beetham116 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
5. Matthew 6:11, KJV. In Greek: Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον.
6. Luke 11:3, KJV. In Greek: τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ' ἡμέραν.
7. F. Kinchin Smith and T.W. Melluish, Teach Yourself Greek, Hodder and Stoughton, 1968, p. 94.
8. Beetham, p. 87: "The Perfect Tense describes an action which has occurred in the past the present effects of which are still evident."
9. John 19:22, KJV.
10. C. A. E. Luschnig, An Introduction to Ancient Greek: A literary approach, 2nd ed., Hackett Publishing, 2007, ISBN 0872208893, p. 271: "The perfect imperative expresses a command that is meant to be decisive or permanent. (It is very rare.)"
11. Mark 4:39, KJV.
12. Nigel Turner, Grammatical Insights Into the New Testament, Continuum, 2004, ISBN 0567081982, p. 42.
13. Mastronarde, p. 192.
14. Jeremy Duff and David Wenham, The Elements of New Testament Greek, 3rd ed, Cambridge University Press, 2005, ISBN 0521755514, p. 68.

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