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Mediator available

Don't know if you noticed, but WGFinley offered to mediate our case and so far, 7 out of 12 editors have signified agreement here. If you have any reservations about him, I understand - I believe the decision needs to be unanimous - but if you're willing, assigning a mediator this way will considerably faster as AGK indicated here it may take two to three weeks otherwise. Thanks for checking it out. AzureCitizen (talk) 21:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with WGFinley, he seems to be a reasonable choice. Arzel (talk) 21:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks! AzureCitizen (talk) 21:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Restoring Honor Mediation

Greetings!

I have agreed to mediate the Restoring Honor case. I'm requesting that all parties start with opening statements, instructions are at the top of the page. Thanks for agreeing to go to mediation, I'm hopeful we can get this resolved to the satisfaction of all parties. Don't hesitate to contact me with any questions or issues. --WGFinley (talk) 00:53, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Meg Whitman

My edits were in good faith. No POV was added. Tightened lede and copy edited over weighted section as discussed on talk page. Consensus was followed. As a major contributer to the article and member of project Biography of a Living Person don't understand your summary. I only ask to assume good faith.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I was mostly focused on the undocumented alien maid. This section has been the focus of poltical posturing, and when I saw you add some words like "however" and "claims" to link sections together it reads like NPOV. I should have been more specific. Arzel (talk) 14:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

My born date

Stalking

BS24 used so many socks that it was near impossible to detect which tags he didn't add. An editor restored those for which there was consensus and non-disruptive. And in case you're concerned that you've unintentionally may have suggested that I was being disruptive, this may help you. . As for Wikistalking? Hmmm. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 17:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I never said you were disruptive, even though you are disruptive. I said you were vindictive. Probably the most vindictive editor I have ever seen on WP. Normally I would simply remove your trollish comments, but I have decided that others should also be able to see a history of your vindictiveness. Happy Halloween. Arzel (talk) 00:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPA. Watch the fishes of your aquarium and relax! 82.135.29.209 (talk) 01:39, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Considering that 47 of your last 50 edits (as I write this) are centered around an editor, rather than content, you do appear to be bordering on, if not already, Misplaced Pages:Harassment and/or Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. Administration has responded to the SPI, and since you have nothing new to add regarding recent activity of sockpuppetry, this is the point where editors drop the stick and walk away. // Akerans (talk) 15:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Nah. Good try though. Admins who seem to have fashioned a double secret stature of limitations need help, especially when the SPI subject has trucked in so many blatant empirical falsehoods that they can not go unadressed. Now, if you would like to substantially counter the charges, and without resorting any of the multi-faceted ad hominem attacks adopted by BS24 and Arzel, hop to it. BS24 and Arzel seem to be without that capacity. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I really like how you manage multiple personal attacks on both BS24 and myself in so few words. Arzel (talk) 22:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Somehow I don't think that was flattery. Prove my charges wrong, and I'll gift wrap a mea culpa. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not possible to prove the negative. Arzel (talk) 22:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

You just lost me. All the documentation positively proves that BS24 (who may have had enough socks to go into the double digits) actively evaded scrutiny, and falsely claimed to have been on indefinite ban for one act of vandalism. So what would be the negatives you can't prove? The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The recent sockpuppets that you didn't list. Can't disprove those. That is not to say I would try to disprove them, however. Akerans (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikiquette alert for The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous

Hello, Arzel. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. BS24 (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC) -

Liar

Thank you for the warning...

But honestly, if they manage to get me blocked, I shan't have any faith in wikipedia anyways. Whatever that tool may say I'm no man's sockpuppet and have plenty of personality to prove it. Soxwon (talk) 00:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I hear you there. Arzel (talk) 01:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You aren't a sock? Dude, you have SOX right in your name; that is such in-your-face-guilt that you should just admit it right now. Case closed. Xenophrenic (talk) 05:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

A question...

Arzel, I have a question about your comment about BS24 where you say, He then starts over without causing any problems, and by all accounts has been a reasonable editor during the past 10 months. I know that's the narrative he has been pushing, but I think that may be the source of his difficulties right now. A quick examination of his first 13 edits as BS24 (and the images he uploaded to commons at that time) shows he was still in vandalism mode. Can you please take a look at those 13 edits & images, and give me an explanation for them that doesn't include vandalism? I'm predicting you can not. He didn't create the BS24 account as a clean start; it was his 7th attempt at evading his block (his prior 6 sock accounts were caught and blocked), and luckily for him no one discovered it was a sock until recently. Yes, he admitted it, but only after an SPI report was filed with evidence making it impossible to deny. Still, I think he has a chance to recover his editing privileges if he drops the little lies he's been telling while trying to save face, and focuses instead on the greater truth that he's been trying to be a productive editor for many months now. Plenty of admins are willing to go with the redemption route, as long as they don't perceive BS24 is lying to them about certain details. I notice you offered to help him get his block lifted. If you feel there is any merit to what I've said, perhaps you can convey it to him (he's not likely to listen to me); or if you disagree with me, just disregard this. Thanks, Xenophrenic (talk) 05:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess it depends upon your personal definition of reasonable. Was he perfect, probably not, but then who is. He obviously felt like no admins were listening to his side of the NYyankees51 story, and by all accounts they were not. Should he have gone the preferred route regarding NYyankees51, yeah, I would say he should have. However, if you look at his history as BS24 for the past months he has been a reasonable editor. At least as reasonable as most people. You say his first 13 edits are not reasonable, and maybe they were not but what matters is what he is doing in recent history. Blocks are supposed to be corrective, and the actions regarding NYyankees51 seem to have resulted in that corrective behaviour. What is the point of redemtion if there is a vindictive attitude that says, "Yeah I know you have been pretty good the past few months, but it doesn't matter because you did something wrong 10 months ago." Arzel (talk) 14:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you missed the point of my comment. I personally have no doubt he was involved in some juvenile antics with one or more friends/family, and it included article vandalism. I also agree that he has maintained a marginally productive edit history in recent months (he still needs work on edit warring, civility, combative attitude ... but there are certainly worse editors that are not blocked). The point I was making is if he wants to salvage his BS24 account (or his NYyankees51 account, if admins so insist), he needs to quit morphing his story and excuses at every turn. Admins don't want to be spending time on this crap, so if he just admits his wrongs, apologizes and promises it won't happen again, the admins will eagerly jump on it and give him a pass. (Much to Mr. Anon's chagrin, I'm sure...) But the longer he plays the defense & excuse game of trying to justify BS24 as a "clean start" and insisting he did nothing wrong when creating it, or claiming he didn't know what "avoiding scrutiny" was ... he's just begging to have admins (or worse, his fan club of Misplaced Pages editors that don't like him) pick apart his every word. As his self-appointed defense attorney, you should have advised him to roll over and play dead, so that the admins would give him "one more chance" just to close the books on this issue. Just my opinion, of course. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

It is my assumption that he is telling the truth, so telling him to roll over just didn't factor into my logic. I believe in playing it straight, also, I don't think AKA or 82 would allow him to play dead. They seem pretty insistant of trying to shoot holes in his history (you are not helping matters either). Certainly, he has made a couple of contridictory statements, but given that this happened almost a year ago I am not surprised that he might get a couple of facts wrong. However, if you look at his actions during this time it is easy to see how it was something juvenile. The history of the edits between IP68 and NYyankees clearly support his general story. Also, if he was a habitual sock user, then why has there been no suspected socks in relation to the RTH mediation. If ever there was a time for a sock user to employ socks it would have been then to strengthen his argument. His actions do not conform to disruptive sock abuse outside of the incident almost one year ago. Arzel (talk) 02:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are suspected socks since the Restore Honor mediation, although I'm not sure how strong the suspicion is. And yeah, I know I appear to be part of the "pile-on" in the BS24 situation, but I just interject to correct errors -- sometimes even those made by admins. I'm ambivalent as to whether BS24 is blocked or not (as I'm certain he will be editing Misplaced Pages for a long time to come, one way or another), but I will speak up when I see blatant falsifications. You never did give me your opinion about his first 13 edits as BS24 -- and the images he uploaded. He has told some truths, and he has lied a bit -- and unfortunately, he lied when he said BS24 was created as a clean start effort. He may have slowly developed it into an account he decided to keep, and is now fighting to keep, but it most certainly didn't start that way. I could easily have been convinced that he is not "a habitual sock user", if it weren't for all the other deception involved in this mess right now. Xenophrenic (talk) 02:50, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know the specifics of the situations he was referring to, so it is hard to judge. The one image is gone, I don't understand the other image. It doesn't appear on the surface to be anything that egregious, at least not compared to most of the crap that people put on WP. So I don't quite know where you are going with this. Arzel (talk) 03:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The recent 9 month

Arzel, it wasn't just 10 month ago... As one of many samples: Less than one month ago an IP made a valid change which was well substantiated by a new source. But then BS24 reverted that change and gave the user a dressing-down "Please read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia.". Treating new editors in such a way makes it harder to gain and retain motivated and constructive Misplaced Pages contributors, hurting Misplaced Pages. Do you think this such contributions of BS24 are "reasonable"? Over the time, BS24 made many good edits, but also various bad edits. I'm absolutely in favor of giving everyone new chances. I just think for using a second change it is a better idea to signal understanding of wrong behavior in the past and indicate changed behavior for the future (which really does not hurt, which I know from own experience). He should be careful which path to take. 82.135.29.209 (talk) 10:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Give me a break. You stalk BS24 to other articles and revert him out of spite and claim he is the one that needs to work on his editing? That IP editor that you ran to defend has a history of making edits that don't match sources. Arzel (talk) 13:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It's simple: BS24 reverted an substantiated edit from me by ridiculously claiming that it was vandalism. And then, after the "fresh start" discussion started in the SPI, I was interested into finding out if he did this to others, too. And therefore I was looking into the history of BS24. Note that this IP edit was perfectly reasonable and matching the sources - please verify it! Look at the SPI page, it's all documented, readable for everyone, including admins. Ok, you tell me again how @&$§?*# I am because of all this. But I notic that you don't try to defend these recent BS24 edits as "reasonable". 82.135.29.209 (talk) 20:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any edit from BS24 where he called your edit vandalism. The IP150 edit that he reverted was not with malice, so I don't know what your problem is. Arzel (talk) 02:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding vandalism: Again, look at the SPI page, it's all documented. Or you also can just look at the first entry of my talk page. Regarding IP150: The problem is not the edit of that IP, but BS24's reaction to it. Also here, please look at the SPI page. I have the impression that you are not very familiar with the facts of the SPI. 82.135.29.209 (talk) 10:45, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

NYyankees51 SPI

Arzel, I can assure you there is no "mission". I also didn't search for socks; someone else reported these diffs to me, I was just the one who reported them into a SPI. If there are new socks, then they should be blocked. If not, then not. That's all. 82.135.29.209 (talk) 06:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

All in all, I suggest for the future that everyone leaves all this personal animosities behind and focus on improving Misplaced Pages articles and on a subject oriented discussion at the mediation. And note that a mediation is not about majority and voting; changing the list of participants of a mediation does not change the facts. Peace? 82.135.29.209 (talk) 06:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Peace can only be given to those that extend their hand. Stop extending your fist and you will recieve peace. Arzel (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I see you are still punching BS24 in the face. I bet you are a griefer as well. Arzel (talk) 16:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Arzel, just a quick observation, did you see this edit here? He removed the strike-out of BS24's opening statement on the grounds that it would be ad hominem to discount what he had to say just because he's blocked. AGF, or another punch in the face? The edit was around 4:39 AM this morning. Respect, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:17, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

IP82 needs to build some more relationship chits. He is running a pretty high negative balance right now. Arzel (talk) 23:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Empirical note

You are very mistaken. SpecialK is the ONLY one I've accused of being a sock since the BS24 SPI. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 19:07, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I said you think everyone is a sock. I didn't say that you have accused everyone, but it is really just semantics. You might as well make your SPI case against SK, Xeno is probabably not going to take this action since it will look like a retribution attack against SK for the 3RR fracus between them. Let me know when you are done being a complete JA regarding the whole BS24 situation. Arzel (talk) 19:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

To paraphrase you: I didn't say it, but it's just semantics, so I did say it. What makes you think BS24, completely reversing compulsive tendencies, won't use socks again, if not already? The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Arzel, regarding the "fracus between SpecialK and myself", you should recall that during that short edit war, SpecialK exceeded 3RR while I did not, and then he made the mistake of reporting it, and he was blocked for it. No skin off my nose; there is nothing for which I should exact "retribution". You are correct, however, that I won't be participating in an SPI linking BS24 to SpecialK, but that's simply because I don't see any connection. Being a conservative, POV pusher in American politics, edit warrior and obnoxious, can describe many thousands of Misplaced Pages editors, and is not enough in common to warrant the accusation. I'm fairly certain SpecialK has other prior and present identities, and I've a good idea who two of them are -- but BS24 isn't one of them. I'm with Arzel in cautioning against a sock-hunt feeding frenzy, but much of what BS24 is dealing with now he brought upon himself. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's see. A 3 year editing history of not socking, followed by a month (give or take) of socking, followed by 9 months of not socking. Plus, the fact no one has been able to demonstrate s/he's socked in that 9 months. Somewhere someone has mentioned some IP address, but I chalk that up to forgetting to log-in. Something of which you're guilty (you've edited from a number of IPs yourself), so you can't fault him/her for that.

Speaking of which, how about the fact you included one of your IP edits in your initial SPI report against BS24, and then claimed it was made by BS24! If anyone is guilty of recent socking, it's you. And, you didn't even own up to that fact. All you did was say you shouldn't address comments to other editors. So, I have a lot more faith in BS24's desire to be a positive contributor to the project than than stuff you've shown in the past few weeks. Giving your lack of civility to a number of administrators of late, I'm surprised you haven't been blocked yet for your disruptive attitude. You've clearly demonstrated to me that you're no longer here to contribute positive to the project, and are only seeking to stir up trouble where ever you go. Akerans (talk) 20:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

(Akerans, I believe, is addressing me. I previously shined his allegation of sock puppetry as too weird and nonsensical. And it still seems so to me.)

Akerans' definition of a sock and Misplaced Pages's, which requires deception, are in conflict. I signed a lot of my post Mr Anon, so they would be traced back to me, not to maliciously evade scrutiny. (Could you think of a worse way to go on the Wiki lam?) I now log on because the opposite suspicion happened, obvioulsy. Opening new accounts while on indefinite block, as NYyankees51 did again and again and again, may win your admiration, but if that's what it takes to get it, I'll pass. Only in your mind am I "guilty of recent socking," and you and others can stay so convinced without my taking offense. This posting is more for others to see and to clear the record. Finally, it's false to say that I have not been mute on the matter.. I hope you simply misspoke because you did not check my SPI, and are not revealing a sense of entitlement larger than the that which SPI admins can rightfully enjoy. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 23:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

If you knew you signed your IP edits as Mr Anon, then why did you claim that was BS24's edit in the first place? That's a clear case of an attempt on your part to mislead, deceive, and/or disrupt. And a previous SPI against you doesn't excuse you for making such deceptive claims against other users. Akerans (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, I get it. You're habit of reading less than closely has not diminished, and there is no deception to speak of. I cited those edits by mistake, fixed it, and said so when I said, "Akerans is right and I did direct comments to other editors, which I should not have done and will not make any excuses for." Note that stating "I did direct those comments" (the ones cited then and now) shows those posts are clearly owned by me, and could not belong to BS24, or suggested to be his except by mistake. I thought that was so clear and unmistakable at the time, and I still don't know where the confusion is from. Anything else you might want, though you may already have it? Just ask, I'll be waiting here outside your distortion field. 02:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC) (Updated to stress the obvious after Akerans replied to post in original form)

No, that wasn't you owning up to the fact that you tried to pass off one of your edit summaries as someone else. That was you admitting to the edit summary. Do you not understand the difference? Based on your recent post, appears as though you're chalking it up as a mistake. However, as an editor who tends accuse others of "reading less", I have to wonder how you missed "Mr Anon" in the edit summary, twice no less. Perhaps you can start holding yourself to the same kind of standard you expect of everyone else? Akerans (talk) 14:53, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

You really don't have to think it was just an accidental mistake. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 15:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

BTW, you did not quote my initial report, you quoted a follow up, though it was easy to see as such since I headed it "(Additional evidence in response to BS24's statement.)". I'm seeing a pattern of sloppiness, which though undoubtly based on good faith, makes me need to check your citations in order to consider them carefully. A little onerous, but, oh well.The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of my label, that's the correct diff of you making the deceptive claim. So, knowing that was your edit, why did you say the edit belonged to someone else? Two of them no less! You included two edits signed with Mr Anon and claimed they were BS24?! You tell us that you knew they were yours, and you did it anyway? And you don't see the deception on your part? Akerans (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello, lo, lo, lo. AK in the echo chamber, y'all. Easy now. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 03:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

3 year editing history of not being caught socking, followed by two months of socking and vandalism, followed by 9 months of editing on a sock. Plus, he has edited from IPs extensively, claiming, for instance, that 50+ edits across several articles over just a couple days was simply "forgetting to log in". Since being recently confronted, his biggest problem has been his lying -- not a good trait for someone wanting to turn over a new leaf. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Point of fact: NYyankees51 admittedly spent 11 (2+9) months as a sock of NYyankees51, as best we know. A sum likely to swell, no doubt, and unfortunately. As for SpecialK, Xeno probably has a better read on that editor, and unless I find more to pursue it, I'm letting it slide for now, even though I still strongly suspect him as a sock of NYyankees51. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 23:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Distinction w/o difference

Not only was your statement incorrect and a distinction without a difference, NYyankees51 could not stop lying. The admin who rejected his third all but proved this. BTW, scolding that admin won't help BS24, quiet the opposite. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 01:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That Admin didn't prove anything, and neither have you, other than that you are vindictive. Arzel (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

"Helping" NYyankees51

Hi Arzel!

I believe you that you want to help NYyankees51. But it seems to obvious for everyone else that you are more hurting than helping him. Yes, when not even looking into the original evidence in the SPI, you may really think by yourself and claim that he has a "largely good edit history". But if this leads NYyankees51 that he tries to defends his bad actions, this makes it harder for people to assume good faith. Think about it! 82.135.29.209 (talk) 11:26, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

This coming from a WP:SPA that hides behind an IP address. Arzel (talk) 12:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That is an unfortunate and baseless smear. Retracting it would be a good step. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 15:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

JamesBWatson (talk) 14:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)