| Revision as of 22:15, 28 March 2011 view sourceBrownHairedGirl (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers2,942,733 edits →How to keep a discussion about possible anti-Semitism civil: seems not← Previous edit | Revision as of 23:00, 28 March 2011 view source Ksuoaas (talk | contribs)5 edits →ANI problems: new sectionNext edit → | ||
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| --that the infamous(/famous) Julian Assange, that blogger Murphy that impersonated David Koch to the governor of Wiz, and/or prankster Mr. O'Keefe might be thought of as "alternative journalists"? <small>Full disclosure - I've also started a thread on this topic here: ].</small>--] (]) 18:49, 28 March 2011 (UTC) | --that the infamous(/famous) Julian Assange, that blogger Murphy that impersonated David Koch to the governor of Wiz, and/or prankster Mr. O'Keefe might be thought of as "alternative journalists"? <small>Full disclosure - I've also started a thread on this topic here: ].</small>--] (]) 18:49, 28 March 2011 (UTC) | ||
| == ANI problems == | |||
| Mr. Wales, | |||
| I notice a persistent problem in ANI and WP. When people cannot defend their opinion, they automatically accuse the other side of being a sock. This is funny but sad. | |||
| On ANI, there is an issue what to call Kansas State University since the offical name is quite long. I have a reasonable solution (and interest since my dad went there) but can only offer an opinion, which is not what the 2 major people want. | |||
| Also on ANI, there is a rather heavy handed handling of Malia Obama. It seems like President Obama doesn't want too much coverage on her (but does mention her regularly and even let her do an interview). There is an issue of whether children should not have articles or whether she is enough of a public figure. However, an article existed, but aome people just removed the article and redirected it without adequate discussion. Furthermore, their main reason is sockpuppetry, not logic. | |||
| Mr. Wales, you should bring order in Misplaced Pages and let things be decided rationally, not slightly poorly in the KSU article and very poorly in the Malia Obama article. What is at stake is orderly process in Misplaced Pages, not the specific article, but these articles need your help. Thank you. ] (]) 23:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
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Ratings of articles
Hi, like in title I have to ask you about ratings in articles. So, will they in for example: the german, french, polish, italian etc. version of Misplaced Pages? I think, that they need something like ratings, because the part of article has bad quality, are incredible, has no references. Please lead to of the ones biggest Wikipedii of the evaluation. It really will be needed. Thank You --83.11.225.163 (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
- If I may try to help, we do have article assessment which appears in the menu bar of every article for users who have a login account. This ranking system is one of many features available to account holders.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
- An article's assessment is not displayed by default to logged-in users. This feature is enabled by selecting the gadget entitled "Display an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header for each article" in the gadgets section of your preferences. Graham87 08:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying. I have forgotten what the standard account looks like as I have several gadgets installed and use the modern skin. (note to IP) Listen to Graham...he knows what he is talking about. :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:41, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying. I have forgotten what the standard account looks like as I have several gadgets installed and use the modern skin. (note to IP) Listen to Graham...he knows what he is talking about. :)
How to keep a discussion about possible anti-Semitism civil
I know that you are now for the most part just one editor among thousands, which I admire and would not wish to compromise. But you have in the past taken an interest in discussions that cross a line beyong uncivil, and of course no one can question your commitment to the project as a whole.
I opened a thread at AN/I because of what I perceived as anti-semitic content in a new article. I proposed a ban, which another user changed to a proposal for a topic ban. Many editors oppose this and while I do not agree with them, I respect their reasoning.
But here is one exception that really disturbs me.
I am really disturbed by the following reasoning, at an AN/I thread: "Should it be concerning that a good percentage of the supporting editors here are Jewish, according to their userpage? Doesn't that make them biased against Noleander?"
I didn't bring this to your attention at the time because a great number of other editors responded and in my view quite appropriately. But it has now been two days, and this user continues to take the same line of reasoning:
- The reason I raised the issue is because there is an preponderance of Jewish users who have arrived to vote on this topic ban, far more than an average cross-section of ANI watchers should have. There is also the fact that there is also accusation of antisemitism on Noleander's part being thrown around with very little actual looking at his editing and only looking at the type of articles he edits. It raises concerns for me of both bias on the part of users using such arguments and concerns about ulterior notification of this discussion. SilverserenC 00:18, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
- No, it is specifically true. Every single person on the opposing side in that argument was Jewish, thus it is literally true to call them Jewish users. Their userpages said so and they were arguing against the inclusion of any material that was criticism unless it was by a Jewish author (which...doesn't even make any sense in terms of criticism). Eventually, most of us gave up on trying to argue, since it was getting nowhere. I believe Noleander kept arguing since then, which clearly didn't help him in the books of said users. The rooted stance of the opposing users also explains why the Criticism of Judaism article is so much worse than other comparable Criticism of religion articles. There is a specific reason why I attempt to stay away from articles where I would have a personal interest in them having a POV (such as political articles, articles about social issues, articles related to homosexuality, ect.). I wish other users did the same, but more often than not, users go directly to articles where they have a biased opinion and it's this that causes such conflict on Misplaced Pages. I have no personal interest in Judaism, either for or against, but I am against other biased users trying to control such an article. SilverserenC 00:37, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
If you do not want to get involved, you don't need to give me any explanation. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- This post isn't about Noleander; it is about the responses to the discussion on Noleander.
- It seem seems to me that there are two possible issues to address here:
- When an editor is accused of anti-X bias, should it be a matter of concern if Xian editors are disproportionately represented amongst those making or supporting the accusation?
- In this case, did the editor claiming that this was the case have reasonable grounds for doing so?
- My own thought on point two is that is that allegations either of structural bias or of misconduct should not be made unless there is sufficient evidence for a case to be reasonably made. Whether the case is proven is a different matter, but editors should make sure that they have have reasonable prima facie grounds before making such a claim.
- However, it appears to me that Slrubenstein is objecting to the principle of an editor ever raising such concerns about who is doing the accusing. Is that what you mean, Slrubenstein? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Noting that there's already a lengthy WP:Wikiquette alerts thread about this. I would have thought that accusing other editors of being biased because they're Jews was an obvious personal attack, but maybe I'm just not smart enough to appreciate the subtleties and nuances involved. I know if I'd said something like that as a kid my Protestant parents would have washed my mouth out with soap, but apparently here it's just "fighting political correctness" or "standing up to censorship" or some such. 28bytes (talk) 19:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- If an editor was accused of anti-Ruritanian bias, and faced sanctions based on the consensus of a predominantly Ruritanian set of participants, I would be concerned. If an editor faced sanctions for anti-American bias on the basis of a consensus of American editors, I would be concerned. And the same goes for any value of the "X" I mentioned above, because it's a long-standing principle of justice that people should be tried by an impartial tribunal, not by a group who perceive themselves to have personally slighted by the accused.
- I don't know whether SilverserenC had reasonable grounds for hir claim of bias; I have not attempted to assess that point. What concerns me here is the attempt to censure an editor for even suggesting that such bias could be a problem, just because the allegation was of a pro-Jewish bias. This seems to me to a very dangerous situation: are Jewish editors to be exempt from any expression of concern about structural bias? If any editor says "hold on, Xian editors should not be the majority on a jury deciding whether someone is anti-Xian", are to be automatically tagged as anti-semitic whenever X=Jew? Really?
- Anti-semitism is a wicked thing, but the existence of anti-semitism should not be abused as an automatic trump card to which can be played to prevent any scrutiny of the processes used in assessing whether an editor has fallen below the high standards which Misplaced Pages seeks to uphold. If anyone who questions bias and due process in this sort of discussion is going to be hounded as anti-semite, we set a horribly chilling precedent. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Let me say that I have never stated that such a bias does exist in this situation. I have always been asking whether there is the possibility it exists and voicing my concern about the makeup of the topic ban voters. But I have never, ever said that said voters are biased without a doubt. I have always just been asking and it is this asking that has been taken so far our of context and somehow meant to mean that I was condemning Jewish editors or something to that effect. Silverseren 20:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Noting that there's already a lengthy WP:Wikiquette alerts thread about this. I would have thought that accusing other editors of being biased because they're Jews was an obvious personal attack, but maybe I'm just not smart enough to appreciate the subtleties and nuances involved. I know if I'd said something like that as a kid my Protestant parents would have washed my mouth out with soap, but apparently here it's just "fighting political correctness" or "standing up to censorship" or some such. 28bytes (talk) 19:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Here's what I find chilling. Immediately after Silverseren made his accusation of bias, two or three editors supportive of the topic ban scrambled to point out that they weren't Jewish. As a non-Jew who supported the topic ban, I almost joined them... and immediately felt ashamed of myself for thinking my not being Jewish would somehow "legitimize" my support of the topic ban. For thinking my opinion would somehow hold more weight because I'm not a Jew. It disgusts me that the non-Jewish editors have felt the need to "out" themselves as non-Jewish to defend their position. I can't imagine how the Jewish editors must have felt. 28bytes (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- @28 bytes, if the substantive topic was anti-American bias or anti-Methodist, would you be disgusted if editors declare whether or not they were American or Methodist?
- If not, then how can we ensure that such concerns can be aired in respect of Jewish editors and Jewish topics, without someone seeking an unbiased assessment being accused of anti-semitism?
- Because that's the chilling effect I see here. It seems that even asking whether there is bias is being taken as an open-and-shut case of anti-semitism. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:57, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, yeah, I would be disgusted if editors felt compelled to announce that they weren't Methodists in order for their opinions not to be considered suspect. Is it really too much to ask that our arguments and evidence be considered rather than what church we go to when determining if what we say has merit? 28bytes (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- @28bytes - re "I would be......they weren't Methodists" - Not to butt-in here, but a question to better understand your point. Would you say a Methodist would on average be equally able to write neutrally on some contraversial methodist-related subject as a non-methodist? NickCT (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- On average? No idea. I'd imagine some are very good at it and some are not, just like everyone else. 28bytes (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- @28bytes - re "I would be......they weren't Methodists" - Not to butt-in here, but a question to better understand your point. Would you say a Methodist would on average be equally able to write neutrally on some contraversial methodist-related subject as a non-methodist? NickCT (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, yeah, I would be disgusted if editors felt compelled to announce that they weren't Methodists in order for their opinions not to be considered suspect. Is it really too much to ask that our arguments and evidence be considered rather than what church we go to when determining if what we say has merit? 28bytes (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- If the discussion on ANI had worked as you say it should, then it would have been about the real issue with Noleander, which is misrepresentation of sources, and the word antisemitism would have never been used. But the fact that it is being used extensively in that discussion and seems to be one of the primary reasons for most of the supporters of the topic ban, your argument doesn't really work. It is everyone else who made this about religion. Silverseren 21:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- There were plenty of other opponents of the topic ban who managed to make their case without referencing the supporters' religions, so don't blame "everyone else" for something you alone did. My "argument" is that you shouldn't say things like this about your fellow editors for reasons that should be painfully obvious but apparently aren't. 28bytes (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Is it possible to talk with anyone on this topic without the other person becoming increasingly rude? And, yes, it is clearly not "painfully obvious", considering the number of users who are pointing out that it was a valid question (though I clearly worded it badly). Silverseren 21:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Apparently not :(
- It seems that questioning the impartiality of people who have a personal stake in an outcome is to be labelled "disgusting", and the questioner is to be hounded. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Is it possible to talk with anyone on this topic without the other person becoming increasingly rude? And, yes, it is clearly not "painfully obvious", considering the number of users who are pointing out that it was a valid question (though I clearly worded it badly). Silverseren 21:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- There were plenty of other opponents of the topic ban who managed to make their case without referencing the supporters' religions, so don't blame "everyone else" for something you alone did. My "argument" is that you shouldn't say things like this about your fellow editors for reasons that should be painfully obvious but apparently aren't. 28bytes (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- If the discussion on ANI had worked as you say it should, then it would have been about the real issue with Noleander, which is misrepresentation of sources, and the word antisemitism would have never been used. But the fact that it is being used extensively in that discussion and seems to be one of the primary reasons for most of the supporters of the topic ban, your argument doesn't really work. It is everyone else who made this about religion. Silverseren 21:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- This is clear WP:FORUMSHOPPING. While this response was made before the almost exact duplicate on Wikiquette, it should have never been brought here. As I explained over there, the last quote from me, beginning with "No, it is specifically true" is misquoted and misapplied here and there. That comment is in reference to an incident I was involved in a year ago on Criticism of Judaism, as the comment itself says. I was elaborating on that incident because someone asked, it doesn't apply at all to the topic ban proposal or the discussion at hand.
- Furthermore, as I have already elaborated on Wikiquette and received support for such, asking whether someone is biased in a certain situation is not a personal attack. People are continually misquoting or bringing my words out of context and trying to make it seem like I am on the hunt to expose a great Jewish conspiracy or something when I am clearly not. I was merely asking whether, in the case of a discussion about a user who works on anti-Jewish articles, is it proper for the majority of users supporting a topic ban to be self-described as Jewish. That was my original question, whether the sample base is proper in such a case, I was in no way saying that Jews are always biased or whatever is trying to be pinned on me. My original question was one that could have been answered with a simple "Yes, it is" or "No, it isn't". Instead, i'm getting accusations of anti-semitism being thrown at me. I am both offended and appalled at the reaction from a simple question, which is only furthering my reasons for never getting involved in the Israel-Palestine area if accusations and threats of blocking are thrown around as wildly as they have been here. Silverseren 20:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- There shouldn't be "anti-Jewish articles" on Misplaced Pages. If an article can't be NPOV, it's got no business being here. 28bytes (talk) 20:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry I should rephrase that, articles whose subject is about negative stereotypes of Judaism. There. No reason why said articles can't be NPOV, indeed, all (I would presume) of them are. That's what I meant by anti. Sorry, I should have phrased it better. Silverseren 20:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- There shouldn't be "anti-Jewish articles" on Misplaced Pages. If an article can't be NPOV, it's got no business being here. 28bytes (talk) 20:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
TEMP vs BLP1E: your thoughts, please?
It is no accident, to my mind, that WP:BLP1E could only have evolved on a separate page to WP:NTEMP; they are in many senses incompatible. A person who is once famous is always famous, says NTEMP, and 1E says if they were only once famous, they were never famous. The former seems more logical to me, but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the issue. Anarchangel (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- IMO, the easy answer is that 1E is policy while NTEMP is a guideline, so if there is a conflict between the two then the former wins. The more involved answer is that when there is a discussion about a 1E person, "notability" is not really germane. It is a given that the person in question has received coverage in reliable sources, otherwise the discussion probly wouldn't be had in the first place. What is central to 1E is of the person is only in the news for this singular incident, and if absent that situation, would they be an otherwise non-notable person. The woman who Gordon Brown called a bigot in last year's UK election does not have an article. The JetBlue steward does not have an article. The woman who was fired from her job because her large breasts were a distraction in the workplace does not have an article. All were in the news, but for only one thing. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Congrats!
Congratulations on being in wikipedia for 10 years yesterday. There should have been a party or celebration in my opinion Pass a Method talk 16:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Would you be of the opinion--?
--that the infamous(/famous) Julian Assange, that blogger Murphy that impersonated David Koch to the governor of Wiz, and/or prankster Mr. O'Keefe might be thought of as "alternative journalists"? Full disclosure - I've also started a thread on this topic here: Talk:James_O'Keefe#cat.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:49, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
ANI problems
Mr. Wales,
I notice a persistent problem in ANI and WP. When people cannot defend their opinion, they automatically accuse the other side of being a sock. This is funny but sad.
On ANI, there is an issue what to call Kansas State University since the offical name is quite long. I have a reasonable solution (and interest since my dad went there) but can only offer an opinion, which is not what the 2 major people want.
Also on ANI, there is a rather heavy handed handling of Malia Obama. It seems like President Obama doesn't want too much coverage on her (but does mention her regularly and even let her do an interview). There is an issue of whether children should not have articles or whether she is enough of a public figure. However, an article existed, but aome people just removed the article and redirected it without adequate discussion. Furthermore, their main reason is sockpuppetry, not logic.
Mr. Wales, you should bring order in Misplaced Pages and let things be decided rationally, not slightly poorly in the KSU article and very poorly in the Malia Obama article. What is at stake is orderly process in Misplaced Pages, not the specific article, but these articles need your help. Thank you. Ksuoaas (talk) 23:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)