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Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism

Not that it probably will do any good and I'll probably just get attacked myself in order for others to avoid their own problems, but here we go- at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism#2 sources to support that Nikki Yanofsky is Jewish? I have been personally insulted and had words put in my mouth by User:AndyTheGrump. He has called me a bigot and accused me of spreading anti-semitism. I am in fact a Jew, a declaration I have made many times over many many years, one that is not in doubt and in light of User:Noleander and the years I fought to try to bring at AN/I some sort of resolution to that user's perceived anti-semitism should show how I feel about that remark by Andythegrump. Considering nothing was ever done about Noleander here at AN/I until ArbCom had to FINALLY step-in I hope that a stern warning to AndyTheGrump regarding his comment that "Jews can never be a nationality" is all I would like. Such a declaration as fact along with his other comments are over the line. His OPINION that Jews are not a nationality is his opinion, to state it as fact is insulting.Camelbinky (talk) 01:46, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Check your definitions. think you are confusing a number of terms as Nationality Ethnicity are separate categories and imposing them on a minor is WP:BLP violation under WP:BLPCAT. Nationality is not the same as the latter two. Since there is not Jewish country on earth there is not "Jewish nationality" there is an Israeli Nationality totally separate issue. Please review your terminology. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 02:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

ResidentAnthropologist—you say, "think you are confusing a number of terms as Nationality Ethnicity are separate categories and imposing them on a minor is WP:BLP violation under WP:BLPCAT."

Two questions:

1. Does WP:BLPCAT say anything about minors?

2. Does WP:BLPCAT say anything about material for placement in the body of an article? Bus stop (talk) 19:10, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, nothing I said could remotely be described as accusing Camelbinky of anti-Semitism. I did however object to him/her making offensive remarks about Canadians and Moslems, as well as as repeating a highly-questionable stereotype implying that Jewish people necessarily have stronger allegience to 'Jewishness' than to their own nationality. Regardless of who claims this, it is a particularly harmful assertion, and one that has led to persistant attempts to exclude people of Jewish faith/ethnicity from positions of political power.

As for Jews being a 'nationality', this is simply false, in the sense that Camelbinky is attempting to use the terms. He/she clearly has little understanding of what 'nationality'/'nationalism' implies in regard to the nation state, and why it cannot be a term meaningfully applied to Jewish people as a whole. One can be An Israeli, or a Canadian, and if one chooses to identify as such one can call oneself an 'Israeli Jew', or a 'Canadian Jew' - one will search in vain for a Jewish embassy however. A nation-state is a social construct, but the 'state' part of the phenomenon tends to have a material existance too (usually including an army...) - note that Camelbinky explicitly states that he/she considers Jewish nationality as being "nothing to do with the State of Israel". I'm not sure I intended to imply that Jews can never have a nation-state - merely that there isn't one at the moment, so to assert that 'nationally' Nikki Yanofsky was more Jewish than Canadian is just plain wrong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:10, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no consensus here or in the world about the meaning of "Jewish". With respect to the article involved, personally, I regard meeting any of the numerous suggested criteria as sufficient. Where she does seems to depend on the interpretation of sources about a subject working in a field with which I am not familiar. I suggest that some compromise wording be found ("of Jewish background") or the like. But what we can really manage to do here is try to prevent personal conflicts or arguments over it, such as the argument above. It would not be productive to attempt to settle here whether Jewishness is or can be a nationality, or the relationship between nationality and ethnicity. DGG ( talk ) 04:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

If there is no consensus on what it means then why are we week in week out, arguing about labelling people with the term in lists, in articles, and in categtories? John lilburne (talk) 20:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

John lilburne—you say, "If there is no consensus on what it means then why are we week in week out, arguing about labelling people with the term in lists, in articles, and in categories?'

It is not the editors here at Misplaced Pages that have to agree fully on the significance of a term but rather the reliable sources, if there is more than one reliable source, that should be in agreement as to the applicability of a term to an individual who is the subject of a biography. Bus stop (talk) 20:41, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

This is AN/I. We aren't here to decide whether Yanofsky is Jewish or not (personally, I think she should be allowed to decide for herself, but I seem to be in a minority...). Instead we are here to decide whether me calling Camelbinky's comments 'bigoted nonsense' was justified or not. I'd like to be judged on the evidence, not on what we think of Yanofsky (who deserves none of this nonsense, one way or another - i've seen no evidence that she gives two hoots how Misplaced Pages labels her). AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as how I never said anything bigoted about Jews, Muslims, or Canadians I'd like to know how it is ok to continue to say I did. I said that if an article were made about my cat we could use the definition of Muslims that all animals are by default Muslims and I was doing that as an analogy to how it can be hard to label people (or animals in that case) as what the religion itself labels them because in the Jewish CULTURE all people whose mother is a Jew is considered a Jew (and this is a different label than a religious one, beit din does not care what a person personally practices when deciding if someone is a Jew, neither does the state of Israel when deciding if someone is qualified for the "right of return"). As for Canadians I asked that if it isnt notable if someone is Jewish, how is it notable that anyone is a Canadian? Because to me that would be a double standard. So how was either comment bigoted?Camelbinky (talk) 05:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how any of you categorize "Jewish". Reliable sources use the term, sometimes in reference to people who are subjects of biographies. Reliable sources sometimes say that someone is a "Jew". Reliable sources do not necessarily categorize the term when they use it—in fact they generally do not. Can we report that in our biographies? Forget about whether we are talking about a racial grouping, a religious grouping, or what have you. Are we permitted to repeat what reliable sources say in this regard in our biographies? I think the answer is obviously Yes.

Here are 3 of the arguments presented against stating in our biographies that an individual is Jewish:

1.) Is that fact relevant to the person's notability? Perhaps not, but nor need it be, for the placement of such material in the body of an article.

2.) Has the person "self-identified" as being Jewish? Present policy does not require "self-identification" for the placement of such material in the body of an article.

3.) Do the sources specify whether the individual is religiously observant or religiously nonobservant? The reasoning is that we should not be permitted to state that someone is Jewish without the further information as to the person's level of religious observance.

By the way, every other post above is addressing this admittedly off-topic subject. Bus stop (talk) 12:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

"If you are in a hole, stop digging" as someone or other once said. Leaving aside your unsourced comments regarding Moslems and animals, and the fact that you wrote "How is it notable that ANYONE is Canadian?", you are still repeating untenable claims regarding Jewish identity. Do you really think that Yanofsky's 'culture' is Jewish, rather than Canadian? Or that she cannot be both, as she chooses? Evidently not, You insist that there is something both hereditary and essentialist about being 'Jewish' that can be applied to people (all people, regardless of their own beliefs) by a rabbinical court. This is not merely imposing the belief system of a particular faith/culture (or more accurately, a subsection of a faith/culture, since the issue is contested even amongst Jews) on outsiders, it is also marking out Jews as 'others', who's loyalty should be to 'Jewishness', and who can never be simply 'Canadian' or whatever. As I've already pointed out, this is a particularly harmful stereotype, often used to marginalise Jews (or worse). The fact that you yourself are Jewish does nothing to mitigate the harmfulness of this stereotyping. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—we go by what reliable sources say, by-and-large. Standard operating procedure is that if a reliable source says that a person is Jewish, we are probably justified in repeating that. It is not inconceivable that sources could be in disagreement with one another over such a point. That would create a gray area. But we are not talking about that sort of complication, are we? Bus stop (talk) 13:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

This is AN/I, and we are supposed to be talking about Camelbinky's complaint about my remarks, and my response. If you insist on trying to hijack this section for yet another forum-shopping exercise, I will raise a complaint about your behaviour in a new (and appropriate) section. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—if you would like to know the truth, I am trying not to address the real reason we are here: I too find your dialogue sometimes distracting and sometimes abrasive. I could engage in a good old fashioned mudslinging match with you, but I'm sure you would get in some good shots too. But I feel that I am contributing something edifying to this discussion. And most other posts including your own are going on longwindedly about the nature of Jewish identity etc. Standard Misplaced Pages policy is applicable here. "Jewish" is an attribute of identity. Sources use it to indicate the presence of that attribute, and in general to describe a person. No single word is expected to answer for all questions that can possibly be raised in association with a person being written about. A 500 page biography is not even going to answer all possible questions. We use the term Jewish as one of many building blocks in constructing a composite picture of a person being written about. Bus stop (talk) 13:46, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Hijacking_of_an_AN.2FI_section_by_Bus_stop_to_discuss_an_off-topic_content_dispute. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

That many Jews are identified and self-identify as such, including specifically cross-sections like "I am a Jewish writer", is a fact. And in either case this is not to be decided upon by WP:ANI. I think WP:ANI is here to address behavioral issues. I must say though, that sometimes I have found WP:ANI's reaction to antisemitism and general racism very prompt and adequate, while at other times lacking and even offensive. Debresser (talk) 13:09, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Can you clarify who it is you are suggesting is being antisemitic and/or racist? It is far from obvious from your comment. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue isn't self-identification as Jewish, but apparently Camelbinky's insistance that "Jewish" is a nationality, rather than a religion or ethnicity. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue is at hand here at ANI is that of Camel Binky's WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior in dealing with people he disagree with. CamelBinky flips out on what he thinks Andy is saying instead of actually what he said. Then CamelBinky makes some derogatory remarks about certain groups then when confronted with his inappropriate remarks decide to cast the specter of Noleander onto Andy. Andy is no Nolleander and frankly comparing him is basically Godwins law in action. I think the issue we should be looking at here is who failed to follow rationale discussion and who made a big stink over essentially nothing. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 18:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

• Start an RFC/U or two, and quit sniping at each other here. Nobody involved in this discussion seems to be asking for any administrative action regardless, and I'd say that no administrator action is needed (except maybe a few troutings).
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I asked for admin action. I asked for admin action on several occasions regarding Noleander and this is exactly what happened. And this person's disregard for individual Jews opinions and dismissive attitude, not just towards me but to another user as well in that discussion, is in fact similar to that case and may get worse if it is not made clear NOW that it is not acceptable to disregard other's opinions regardless of nationality, ethnicity, religion, or personal viewpoint. Calling me a bigot based on what I said and refusing to show HOW it is bigoted is right along the lines of the type of talk page discussions Noleander did. If being a Jew is not notable then HOW is it notable being a Candadian is notable? That is a very relevant question and not bigoted. Show me how it is. Cats, and all non-human animals are by default Muslims in the Islamic religion. This is a fact, and in a talk discussion there is NO requirement that any fact or opinion needs to be referenced to a source, I was under the impression that it was common enough knowledge, and given that if you have Misplaced Pages you have access to Google/Ask.com/Yahoo! and I was under no obligation to enlighten further, you dont believe me, do research. Misplaced Pages is about learning, expanding one's horizons, and researching. If you're not willing to confirm what one person says and simply attack it as "wrong" and "rude" and say that it's part of being a "bigot" because you werent hit over the head with "proof", in my opinion you've come to the wrong place to work.

So, in summary, I'd like to know how I did something wrong and how I am a bigot by asking a question about how it is notable to be a Canadian but not a Jew and by mentioning an unsourced FACT about Muslims. If it cant be proven how those things are wrong and how my comments were "derogatory" as ResidentAnthropolist stated. I'd like apologies if it cant be proven, and I'd like a warning on Grump on telling others that their OPINIONS are, in his own words "not necessary here" and his attack on Jews. MANY Jews consider themselves a nation (our own prayers state that very opinion), and by disregarding what we believe as not relevant is insulting and disrespectful.Camelbinky (talk) 17:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The only person showing "disregard for individual Jews opinions" is yourself. That you are apparently unable to see this, is no excuse. I happen to believe that people should be entitled to decide for themselves who and what they identify with, rather than have the opinions of others, whether on a Misplaced Pages talk page, or in a rabbinical court, define who they are, and which stereotypes to apply. As for your comparison between Neiolander and myself, I consider that utterly contemptible, and were it not to be so self-evidently false to anyone who has followed my activities on Misplaced Pages, I would be asking for action to be taken against you. Maybe I could have worded my initial comments in a more polite way, but your behaviour since has only reinforced my opinion that you are more concerned with enforcing particular perspectives regarding individual affiliations than you are with creating an objective encyclopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—you say, "I happen to believe that people should be entitled to decide for themselves who and what they identify with"… How do you reconcile that with present policy which does not require "self-identification" for purposes of identity as regards material for placement in the body of articles on living people? Bus stop (talk) 22:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I happen to believe that policy (or at least, your interpretation of it) is misguided. I also happen to believe that your inability to stop dragging in off-topic issues to push your own hobby-horse is disruptive to the Misplaced Pages project. Any more questions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—you say, "I happen to believe that policy (or at least, your interpretation of it) is misguided."

Policy requires "self-identification" for Categories, Lists, Navigation Templates, and Info-box statements. But I find no policy requiring "self-identification" for material placed in the body of an article.

If you believe that policy is "misguided" there are probably ways to try to change policy. But much of the discussion you and I have had has taken place in settings where the possibility of changing policy was not present, such as the Talk pages of individual biographies of living people.

Here and here are two recent examples.

The two examples I give above derive from the Nikki Yanofsky debate. I would not really call that such an "off-topic issue" as it is the issue that led to the WikiProject Judaism Discussion Board. It is of course from the WikiProject Judaism Discussion Board that we find ourselves here, because Camelbinky found some problems in the way you related to him/her at that Board.

I am simply asking of you that you respect policy as policy presently stands.

For instance—we are not the Ministry for Ethnic Truth just because in keeping with present policy we use reliable sources to say in an article that someone is Jewish.

And your reasoning that "She is who she is, she is what she is, and 'sources' may be right or wrong" is problematic because it disregards that under present policy we are allowed to rely upon reliable sources in support of saying that someone is Jewish.

You are combining abusive speech with disregard for a small part of policy. I think that is a small problem. I'm asking you to tone down the rhetoric where it has bearing on your fellow editor and as it concerns policy. That is all I'm asking of you. Bus stop (talk) 01:48, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

This is an AN/I thread regarding comments I made about Camelbinky. It isn't a thread about your obsession with ethnotagging Jews. Go away. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

For "ethnotagging" I find only one Google hit and it is Misplaced Pages. And for "ethno tagging" I get a mere 38 hits and they are almost all Misplaced Pages. I think it is potentially problematic when an idea cannot be expressed without resorting to novel terms. Bus stop (talk) 02:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Fortunately, ethnotagging seems to be an unusual hobby - hence the need for a neologism. Keep it up and I'm sure you'll get into the OED ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:29, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

No, writing an encyclopedia is not an "unusual hobby". Bus stop (talk) 02:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

″encyclopedia (plural encyclopedias)

1 A comprehensive reference work with articles on a range of subjects.″

What exactly is the "range of subjects" that you write about, Bus stop?

AndyTheGrump—this is an improper use of the Talk page of an article:

"The issue is that this isn't the Ministry of Ethnic Truth. Unless someone's ethnicity/faith is relevant to their notability, adding it to a BLP is placing undue weight on something they themselves may see as insignificant, and others have no right to impose. Sadly, a number of Misplaced Pages 'contributors' seem to consider this exercise in ethno-tagging as some kind of Mitzvah/Crusade/Jihad (delete according to taste), and do little else. Others see this symptom of OCD as disruptive, if not offensive."

This too is an improper use of an article Talk page:

"Bus Stop, do you really expect anyone to take your comments seriously, given your abject refusal to define what you mean by 'being Jewish'? I'm actually no longer sure you even know yourself, given your insistence that 'reliable sources' don't have to explain what they are being reliable about. Yanofsky may quite possibly be a follower of the Jewish faith (though this is hardly a yes-or-no question, given the divisions within Judaism), she may also consider herself ethnically Jewish (for which the evidence is stronger, though again, ethnicity is a social construct, rather than a biological fact). What I think we can be certain about is that she doesn't consider herself Jewish because either 'reliable sources', or you yourself says she is. You are neither telepathic nor omniscient, and on that basis, your insistence that if a 'source' states that she is Jewish, it is all that needs to be said is just plain nuts. She is who she is, she is what she is, and 'sources' may be right or wrong. You have no right to state this as a fact one way or another. Your insistence on doing so tells us nothing about Yanofsky, and a great deal about you."

In the above I think you are expressing a degree of disregard for some aspects of policy as it presently stands. Additionally, I think you are speaking to other editors in ways that engender bad feelings. And perhaps worst of all you are not being clear. There is no response that any editor including myself can give when the writing is as strange as that which invokes Ministries of Ethnic Truth, ethno-tagging, Mitzvah/Crusade/Jihads, and OCD. There's no realistic way for me to carry on a conversation with you when you tell me I am telepathic or omniscient. This language has nothing to do with that which is proper in interpersonal editorial communication. You can't be telling me I'm just plain nuts if you are seriously interested in collaborating with me in writing an encyclopedia.

If you know of instances in which I have spoken to you offensively or in an untoward way please bring it to my attention. Bus stop (talk) 04:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

This is an AN/I thread regarding comments I made about Camelbinky. It isn't a thread about your obsession with ethnotagging Jews. Go away. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—you say, "This is an AN/I thread regarding comments I made about Camelbinky."

I am not unaware of the context and the origin of the comments exchanged between you and Camelbinky. I was a participant in the discussion in which they transpired. That discussion is found here.

I find you saying in that discussion:

"Bus Stop, a simple question. Are you claiming that the sources you cite state that Yanofsky is Jewish (a) by ethnicity, or (b) by faith? These are two different questions, and need to be considered as such."

""Jewishness is an attribute of identity". Exactly. Yanofsky's identity is for her to define. Any outside source claiming to be able to assert her identity for her is therefore not a reliable source - you cannot assert that someone else is X or Y, only that you chose to identify them as such."

"So Bus Stop,in other words if a source says that someone is 'Jewish', the reliability of the statement has to be determined according to its meaning to Jews, who can then decide exactly what it means, or apply it arbitrarily to 'mean' anything? Wrong, just wrong. Scientologists could claim (indeed, they probably would) that Yanofsky is an an immortal spiritual being - a Thetan - currently reincarnated in in Yanofsky's "meat body". We don't apply the rules (or opinions) of particular ethno-religious groups to determine identity, for obvious reasons. Instead, we determine the reliability of statements from their context, and the meaning given to them. On this basis, a statement that Yanofsky is 'Jewish' that does not expand on this to indicate in what sense the term is used cannot be cited except as opinion - and even as that, it isn't much of a source."

"Your opinion on this is of no relevance - I note that this 'Jews are always Jews, and their nationality is of limited consequence' has been used before. Can you please find a less inappropriate place to push this bigoted nonsense."

""Jews, although known as a nation, are in fact a racial group". Utter garbage I strongly disagree."

"Let's deal with the facts. Even 'scientific racism' in it's heyday didn't consider Jews as a 'race' - they were seen as part of the Semitic peoples, along with other people of Middle-Eastern descent. Likewise, 'hispanics' has never been a 'racial' category, and 'asians' wasn't normally used as a category ether. I can think of one obvious example where Jews have been identified as a race, but I hardly think it is necessary to point out, nor indicate why it is of dubious merit. In any case, since the diaspora, intermarriage with other populations have made any 'racial' aspect of Jewishness of less significance. From an external perspective (the appropriate one for Misplaced Pages), 'Jewishness' combines elements of ethnicity (which isn't the same thing as 'race'), and faith. These are the facts - though facts relating to social constructs, rather than biology, 'racial' or otherwise."

"How can we assess whether a source is reliable for a statement if we don't know what the statement means?"

I consider all of the above to be agenda-driven and/or abrasive to the editors that might hold differing views on the topic at the heart of the matter.

Policy permits placement in the body of an article, even a BLP article, the information that a person is a Jew or Jewish, if such information is well-sourced.

You are arguing that the existing state of policy should be different, yet you are taking up that argument where the potential for bringing about any change in policy is nonexistent.

I think the body of the article is the mainstay of Misplaced Pages. It is the meat and potatoes of our project in my opinion. Therefore I think you are taking up a fundamental argument against standing policy. I think you therefore have to use standard language—I don't think you should be calling those you disagree with ethnotaggers, and I think you should be confining your calls for policy change to those forums in which policy change is an actual possibility. It is a distraction to be interrogated by you at every turn whether Judaism is an ethnicity or a faith. Sources are really all that matter, according to present policy. Bus stop (talk) 14:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

This is an AN/I thread regarding comments I made about Camelbinky. It isn't a thread about your obsession with ethnotagging Jews. Go away. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:55, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—you say "This is an AN/I thread regarding comments I made about Camelbinky."

This is one of your comments addressed to Camelbinky":

"Your opinion on this is of no relevance - I note that this 'Jews are always Jews, and their nationality is of limited consequence' has been used before. Can you please find a less inappropriate place to push this bigoted nonsense."

Your above post addressed to Camelbinky is clearly abusive. It detracts from the requisite atmosphere of collegiality at this project. You can't expect to refer to another editor's post as "bigoted nonsense" without evoking a negative response. Bus stop (talk) 17:03, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

That is right. This was the phrase I used that Camelbinky complained about. Now, I clearly could have been more polite, and maybe I should have been. I stand by what I have argued however - that Camelbinky was making a generalisation about Jewish people that was not only unwarranted as any such generalisations are, but was particularly questionable in that the very same suggestion - that "Jewishness IS a nationality ON EQUAL TERMS with being a Canadian" (or perhaps French?) has often led to people of Jewish descent being excluded from positions of power, and far worse besides. I assume that you consider the words I used to describe Camelbinky as ill-considered (with hindsight, so do I, if only to avoid this needless drama), but where do you stand on the substantive issue? Is it acceptable for people to repeat negative stereotypes about Jews (or people they consider to be Jews) merely because they are Jewish themselves? Or do you not consider the assertion of an inherent dual loyalty to be a negative stereotype? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

In effect it is a confirmation of Norman Tebbit's Cricket Test, and adopted by neo-nazi to slander populations with for the last 20 odd years, that these others are not Loyal to their native country because given half a chance they'll be rooting for some foreign team. Good for you for calling him on it. John lilburne (talk) 20:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

John lilburne—I find you taking a stand in opposition to the adherence to sources when the reliable sources establish that a person is Jewish:

"12 days ago you were told that no one gave a shit about your sources, that you needed to show why "she is Jewish" is more relevant to article than "she was was brought up in a Jewish household", given that there is no self identification. 12 days later, you are being told that no matter how much whining you do, baring self identification, you will not get consensus here to add "she is Jewish" into the article."

I guess my question to you would be—how do you justify such a stance? You seem to be taking a reasonable position here, but in the previous post linked to you seem to be pushing sources aside, even when they say quite clearly that the subject of the biography is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 23:46, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

My question to you, Bus stop, is what has this got to do with an AN/I thread regarding comments I made about Camelbinky? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment

It seems that this AN/I thread, like so many others, went off track. True, Camelbinky seems to need a better awareness of the difference between being Jewish religiously and being Jewish ethnically, *BUT* at the point AndyTheGrump called the comments "bigoted nonsense" and Camelbinky objected, everyone in the WikiProject_Judaism thread should have taken a step back. We all lose our patience at times and end up needing to check our attitudes. How hard would it have been to say, "sorry, I disagreed with you, but my namecalling was wrong. Let's get back to our discussion"?

Instead, people grew more stubborn and the debate went off track because someone was slighted and couldn't get a simple apology. It seems from my reading of events that Camelbinky is sincerely trying to work with the other editors. So, rather than attack the person, why not look at what was said and try to explain, basing your reasoning on Misplaced Pages guidelines. And Andy, how hard would it be to just apologize? I think you would probably much rather be working on fun things than having to defend yourself here, right? Anyway, my 2 cents on all this. -- Avanu (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Avanu, initially all I requested was an apology for his words. Andy not only refused, but continued with saying I was bigoted against Canadians and Muslims, along with being bigoted against Jews. Andy then attacked another editor in the same manner calling their comments ridiculous and belittling them. Such personal attacks and belittling is unacceptable and I will not drop this until a sincere apology is given by Andy and assurances given that a realization that it was wrong (and not that "it was worded wrong", it wasnt just the wording, it was the entire idea).Camelbinky (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Please remember, Camelbinky, absolute statements like "I will not drop this until XXXX happens" kind of amp things up too. Your frustration is understandable, but hopefully in the end, we can get everyone to just try and tone it down and work more civilly from here on out. -- Avanu (talk) 19:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for being so forceful. I am indeed frustrated, I went years with dealing with Noleander and people at AN/I stating it wasnt a big deal and turning things around and making things about me, such as Anthropoligist did in this thread stating I was stating derogatory statements. I have yet to see any explanation of WHAT I said that was derogatory about Jews, Muslims, or Canadians; so I'll change my statement to- I'd like an apology and acknowledgement that I was not a bigot and did not say anything derogatory from Anthropolist and Andy.Camelbinky (talk) 21:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Let's get this straight. I object to you applying stereotypes to people on the basis that the are (or are seen by you to be) Jewish, so you compare me to a 'contributor' with a known history of dubious edits which if not necessarily antisemitic, are definitely pushing the boundaries (though this is being more considerate to Neolander than I think is merited). You refuse to acknowledge that you made derogatory remarks regarding Canadians, andf have made a sweeping statement about Moslems which you have refused to back up with evidence, and you still present yourself as entirely innocent in all this? And you expect an apology from me. Ok, then explain why exactly I should apologise to someone who chose to portray Jewish people in such stereotypical terms when I was unaware whether you were Jewish or not, and frankly, given your resort to stereotypes, still find it a little inexplicable? Are you suggesting that before I object to questionable comments regarding ethnicity, faith, 'race' etc I sould investigate the ethnicity, faith, or 'race' of the person commenting? Sorry, but I don't work like that. If I see prejudice, I say so. Maybe I could have been more polite in saying it, but I see no reason to withdraw my objections to the comments you made that led to my characterisation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:11, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

You continue to be unable to show me how anything I said was derogatory about Canadians where I have several times already stated almost word for word what I said regarding them. At this point I can no longer Assume Good Faith with you when you use vague blanket statements stating that I have used derogatory language against Canadians! I have not, and I need an apology. How have I been prejudiced against Canadians by asking "If it is not notable to be Jewish, how is it notable to be a Canadian?" You obviously dont know anything about what a sterotype or derogatory comment is because I didnt make one about any group. And as I said before- you dont believe me that Muslims believe all animals are by default Muslim, then look it up! It isnt being bigoted by stating a fact. I am not your mother, I am not your teacher, I dont have to hold your hand and teach you anything. You are a big adult, I assume, and can look things up yourself. If you think I'm wrong about a fact, prove it. You are like Noleander in that you turn things on your accuser and attack them by stating ulterior motives and that Jews who are prideful about their heritage and use terminology about Jews in Jewish terms as I have done are some how "prejudice" or bigoted, which is what Noleander always did. Don't tell me what Noleander did, because I brought Noleander here and had these discussions with him many times. And the lack of Admin intervention here is disheartening because we're going down the same damn road. Nothing was learned apparently. So, go ahead Andy, continue acting the way you do, go right ahead, eventually your arrogance and condescending attitude and rudeness and refusal to apologize and name calling and hatred of Jews using their own terminology will catch up to you too.Camelbinky (talk) 04:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

No, I am not "like Noleander ", as any impartial observer can see. I have said nothing about any supposed ulterior motives of Jews, beyond stating that it is wrong to make assumptions about people based on a presumed allegiance to an ethnicity/faith/'nationality' that they may not have - this is stereotyping. You may think that being Jewish yourself permits you to make such generalisations about Jews - it doesn't. As I have already stated, if I see prejudice, I say so. Hiding behind facile comments regarding another contributor does you no good whatsoever, and is clearly a gross breach of WP:CIVIL, if not worse. Unless you withdraw your entirely unwarranted insinuations of antisemitism, I will have no choice but to request administrative action against you. Do you really think that you can redefine 'antisemitism' to mean "arguing with someone who is Jewish that is wrong to apply stereotypes to Jews"? Somehow, I can't see that getting you far. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment This thread needs to be marked resolved as there is no administrative action coming from this clearly. At best this might have been WQA worthy, but certainly not AN/I. Also, Camelbinky you are engaging in personal attacks, please stop doing so. Saying that someone else is like an editor who has been topic banned from editing Jewish related articles is an attack. If you really think AndyTheGrump exhibits a pattern of behavior "like Noleander" then open an RfC. Now please lets stop this nonsense here. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 11:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this is utterly ridiculous that an editor can continue over and over to claim that I am 1- a bigot, then later move on to me being stereotyping. WITHOUT ANY PROOF of what I said that is either! His latest rant now doesnt talk about the Canadian and Muslim comments, wonder if he realizes if they arent bigotry now or he just forgot. I'm sick of AN/I being as Griswaldo did, just sweep it under the rug, ignore this crap and call it nonsense. Exactly what you people said about Noleander each and every time. What is the use of this place if this is what you do? How about taking people's complaints and DOING SOMETHING, anyone who doesnt want to HELP a person with a problem can just NOT COMMENT. Someone has a problem, try to make them feel better. This BS about "the problem is not legitimate" is not how the real world works. You make a complaint at work about another employee, it gets DEALT with SERIOUSLY by HR. Perhaps we need a more professional group at AN/I who takes things seriously. I have said nothing that is bigotry or stereotyping and continue to get harrassed by being said that I have. His belief that me calling my own people a nationality is stereotyping is wrong and his FLAT-OUT LIES that I ever said anything about Jews being more loyal to being Jewish than to their own nation is being allowed to continue. He lies. Why is there no consequences for the explicit lies continuing? I didnt say anything bad about Canadians, Muslims, or Jews, and yet he's allowed to continue in each post saying that I did. But Griswaldo attacks me saying that showing how that is what Noleander did, that's wrong and I get slapped on the wrist. This is what I have come to expect here. Well, I hope Busstop and others keep an eye on Andy and collect every time he makes comments about editors and Jews, because at ArbCom EVIDENCE IS ACTUALLY LOOKED AT and things are taken seriously and action is taken. Here, people read a thread attack the complainer and tell him to drop it apparently. That's not an attack, that's a fact of what has happened. You want to take action against me for a personal attack, go right ahead, hopefully it'll bring to light the crap that happens here. Yea, Im frustrated. An admin cant take 2 freakin seconds to bring to light that I didnt stereotype anyone and I'm not a bigot?!Camelbinky (talk) 14:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Now I've "attacked" you? Give me a break. What I said was that I don't see anything in your complaint that is AN/I worthy. I also suggested that if you really think there is a pattern of behavior here from Andy, then stop bitching here and start an RfC. If he is really "like Noleander" it should be very easy to get some satisfaction afterwards. Go for it, but this venue is a waste of time for you and everyone else. I'm not responding again.Griswaldo (talk) 14:47, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

And I think you might be confused because I'm not going to "take action" against anyone because I'm not an administrator just a commentator.Griswaldo (talk) 15:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

You said "You are engaging in personal attacks". Yes Griswaldo that is an attack when you say I am engaging in personal attacks when I'm not. I'm trying to get something to be done and when you, a commentator not an admin, come here and try to shut down discussion and state that I'm being disruptive and have nothing to complain about that is attacking. If you dont want to get involved, WHY COMMENT?! This is why AN/I doesnt function, people come here and all they want to do is shut down conversation that they dont even investigate. Blame the victim.Camelbinky (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and I'd like to point out that if I'm stereotyping and being a bigot by stating Jews are a nationality when Andy claims they cant because a nation-state doesnt exist, then apparently our own article on Al Jolson is bigoted and stereotyping because it calls him a Lithuanian singer, but when he was born it was the Russian Empire therefore his nationality would have been Russian because there was no Lithuanian NATION-STATE, which according to Andy is a prerequisite for nationality. Therefore anyone's ancestor's who came to the USA prior to the 1860s can't claim Italian as their ancestor's nationality either by-the-way because there was no Italian nation, according to Andy's definition. And there is a Jewish nation-state by the way, the State of Israel EXPLICITELY defines itself as a JEWISH state. Jewish prayers refer to ourselves as a NATION. To call me a bigot and state that I'm stereotyping is a red-herring to promote ideas and push an agenda to deny Jews the right to have people in Misplaced Pages properly defined as a Jew, and YES is exactly what Noleander often did. To say that Jews cant identify Misplaced Pages-article subjects as Jews, but Canadians for example CAN, is the bigoted remark; and that is what Andy is pushing. THAT is anti-semitic in nature, though not overtly obvious. Parallels to Noleander are obvious. If I have to push this to make it obvious to the point where I get in trouble, well it's worth it to bring it to the light of day so that eventually something can be done. Because it took too long for something to be done about Noleander, and it's ridiculous that no one learned a lesson about sniping these things in the bud sooner.Camelbinky (talk) 20:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Accusations of antisemitism

As can be seen above Camelbinky has now made a direct accusation of antisemitism on my part. Needless to say, this is utter nonsense, as an inspection of the relevant texts will show. and I will ask a administrators to take action regarding this gross breach of Misplaced Pages standards. I can see no reason why this should not result in an immediate and substantial block. It should be noted that Griswaldo suggested to Camelbinky that "if you really think AndyTheGrump exhibits a pattern of behavior 'like Noleander' then open an RfC", which then led Camelbinky to accuse Griswaldo of attempting to "shut down conversation" - hardly civil behaviour either, and a further indication that Camelbinky is unable to behave in a collegial manner. Yes, I probably should have chosen my initial words better, but this doesn't give grounds for Camelbinky to make all sorts of wild allegations about other contributors. He/she seems utterly incapable of reading what I have written and instead seems to assume that any disagreement is evidence of sinister motives. This cannot be acceptable behaviour from a Misplaced Pages contributor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:31, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

You are allowed and continue to state that I am a bigot and that I am stating stereotypes but then you accuse me of being the one crossing the line for saying you have stated things that are anti-semitic? Hilarious. Yes, please an administrator investigate. Block and ban me. This is ridiculous. Andy you called me a bigot over and over! You want me banned? Ban yourself then first and I'll gladly ban myself for the same amount of time.Camelbinky (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

This thread is going nowhere and is creating more heat than light - Andy seems to be quite well informed in these issues and Jewish comments in prayers do not a nation make. I would close this but its better if you just move along and let it close itself. Claims of antisemitism should not be thrown around lightly - save them for clear cut cases as thr:::owing them around lightly is disruptive and demeans a serious charge. Off2riorob (talk) 13:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Claims of anti-semitism shouldnt be thrown around lightly? But claims that I am a bigot and that I throw around stereotypes is ok? You really think I dont know what I'm talking about? In Noleander's case it was even stated that any involvement I may have had involved "He was criticizing editors for editing about Judaism without having knowledge of it, or knowing what the correct vocabulary is" as User:SlimVirgin pointed out. I have been acknowledged several times for being quite knowledgeable about Jewish history and culture. Jews consider themselves to be a nationality, that's all that matters for it to be a valid OPINION. Andy decided to tell me and another editor our opinions were unwarranted UNWANTED and not appropriate. Because we disagreed with him. And he decided to declare mine to be a stereotype and called me a bigot. So if you decide that I'm wrong for accusing him of anti-semitism then I say you are have a serious problem with not seeing that his calling me a bigot is just as wrong and I question your impartiality.Camelbinky (talk) 07:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't taking sides. I complained about a comment andy made at the Jewish noticeboard also. I don't think he should be calling you a bigot and I don't think you should be calling him an anti Semite either - total impartiality. I am not impartial about this thread being a waste of time and creating only heat and light though. Lots of moaning and groaning without any chance of any administrative action. Never mind but its stuck here now for another 24 hours filling up the noticeboard for nada. Off2riorob (talk) 09:28, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, let's put an end to this nonsense. Camelbinky, I shouldn't have called you a bigot. I unconditionally withdraw that, and offer my aopologies.

Returning to substantive issues, I still insist that your assertions regarding this matter are badly thought out, and potentially harmful to the interests of people of Jewish ethnicity/faith/descent. My initial objection was to this:

Excuse me Off2riorob, but are you saying that it is notable that she's a Canadian? How is it notable that ANYONE is Canadian? Is she notable because she's Canadian? If you say we can't put she's Jewish (if she really is) then it should apply equally to her being Canadian. A reliable source that happens to state she's Jewish is good enough. Frankly a reliable source stating her mother is Jewish is also good enough, because she would be considered a Jew. Of course I wont press that last part anywhere because technically if my cat ever becomes famous then a Misplaced Pages article could conceivably be written claiming that my cat is a Muslim (in the Islamic religion all animals are by default Muslim, regardless of their owner's religion).

We need to realize that Misplaced Pages can NOT treat the Jews the same as a religion, it is not the same as being Catholic where you can through your life be or not be a Catholic on any given day. You ARE Jewish or you are not. With exception of converts. You can not change being Jewish any more than a person can decide "Oh, I'm not an Australian Aborigine, I'm now a Scandinavian". No, you're not a Scandinavian, and Misplaced Pages at best could only state "XY is an Australian Aborigine who declares themselves to be a Scandinavian". Also Jewishness IS a nationality ON EQUAL TERMS with being a Canadian, and has nothing to do with the State of Israel.Camelbinky (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

As can clearly be seen, you aren't using the term 'nationality' in the sense of a 'people', but explicitly comparing it with say Canadian citizenship, and arguing that it is "ON EQUAL TERMS". This is the core issue here. As I have repeatedly pointed out, a suggestion that people of Jewish descent are somehow inherently of divided loyalty regarding citizenship etc is an old and persistent prejudice, often used in the most explicit terms by antisemites, but common in more general political/social discourse. I'm sure it is unnecessary to give examples here - we are all well-aware enough of this already. As for whether you were really making negative remarks about Canadians, or about Moslems, is rather beside the point. You were making generalisations about Jewish people - or the children of Jewish mothers - which can only be taken as an assertion of some form of inherited 'difference'. This is stereotyping.

Rather than addressing this issue when you made your complaint about my comments here, you have instead chosen to make invidious and baseless comparisons between User:Noleander and myself, and explicitly labelled me an antisemite (where incidentally, your earlier suggestion, which I had assumed was to be taken as your opinion, that Jewish nationality was "nothing to do with the State of Israel" seems to have been forgotten). You have also chosen to make negative comments about other contributors here, which is inself a breach of WP:CIVIL at minimum. I suggest that you unconditionally and unequivocally withdraw your false allegations of antisemitism on my part, and further confirm that you consider any comparisons between Noleander and me are baseless. If you will not do this, I will have no choice but to pursue this issue further, with the object of getting sanctions taken against you. I also suggest that you offer Griswaldo and Off2riorob your apologies for your remarks regarding them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop's comments about tangentially associated issues

Evolutionary Psychology

The article Evolutionary Psychology is having problems. Memills (talk · contribs) is an evolutionary psychology professor who is very enthusiastic about his field, however this enthusiasm results in him editwarring to keep a large embedded table about general phenomena of Evolutionary theory that are not specific to Evolutionary psychology in the article, and for accusing the group of editors arguing that this is off topic and is not a good way to approach article writing for being "anti-EP'ers" and motivated by wanting to put his discipline in a negative light. This is clearly issues of OWNership, of lack of good faith, of battleground mentality and it is in addition disruptive. I would like some disinterested admins to take a look at Memills conduct and help him understand how articles are written how writing a collaborative encyclopedia is different from writing textbooks. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:52, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I welcome the review. I would note that Maunus has described the field of evolutionary psychology as "the EP cult" (see Talk:Evolutionary_psychology#Article_improvement) and he has repeatedly shown strong antipathy toward the discipline as evidenced by his edits and comments on the Talk page. He has repeatedly "collaborated" (or tag-teamed) with others with similar sentiments to delete sourced, notable and relevant information from the article. In addition, he has repeatedly attempted to block in the inclusion of such information, while contributing only material that is critical of the discipline. A search of his username, and mine, on the Talk page, and in the archived Talk pages, will document this. I will be happy to provide specific links if requested. Memills (talk) 22:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It appears that there may be issues of WP:COI/WP:SELFPUB with respect to Memills editing of this article. Memills is a professor of psychology. Note that one point of the current conflict relates to a table originally introduced by memills, which he credited to himself : "Table from Mills, M.E. (2004). Evolution and motivation. Symposium paper presented at the Western Psychological Association Conference, Phoenix, AZ. April, 2004." aprock (talk) 22:12, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

The table in question is not my personal research -- this has been discussed previously on the Talk page. These references were added at the request of other editors. The "Overview of theoretical foundations" table is a summary of theories based on content from multiple evolutionary psychology textbook sources (as noted by editor Leadwind on the Talk page). The organization of the table by systems level was noted in the Mills (2004) reference, as well as in the following reference listed for the table (see Bernard, et al., 2005, Figure 2). Again, the content of the table is not my research (darn -- as if I could lay claim to theories by Darwin, Hamilton, Trivers, Dawkins, etc.), although I might claim a tad bit of the systems level organization of the table, but even that is based on Systems theory for which I cannot take credit. Memills (talk) 23:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

A style guideline that's been around a long time and is quite influential in our Good Article nominations process is WP:Embedded lists, which talks about some of the problems of using a list format in what is otherwise a prose context (and the same objections are made to tables). Tables are great at showing box scores of games, and other black/white, incontrovertible data that would be tedious as prose, but they have a habit of interfering with Misplaced Pages's collaborative process, in part because they exude an aura of "truthiness". If someone wants to make a tweak that doesn't exactly fit with the defined rows and columns of the table, it's harder to do so than if the information were presented as prose.

Also, I have a question ... basically, the most common question we ask about any edit: do you have authoritative secondary sources that say that that breakdown is a better way to summmarize evolutionary psychology than other ways? - Dank (push to talk) 00:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

HBES is the largest and most prestigious organization of academic evolutionary psychologists. An earlier version of the table was included at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society (HBES) "Introduction to the Field" webapge for many years (see the archived version here). The current version of the HBES.com website does not include the table because the website was redesigned to include only professional business items, rather than material to help to educate laypeople about the field (WP would be a more appropriate place for that). I was a member of the HBES committee involved with the website, and I was privy to these decisions. There were no objections made by anyone regarding the table, and HBES certainly would not have retained the table for many years had evolutionary psychologists found it inaccurate. Memills (talk) 01:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

HBES is not in the business of writing encyclopedias. This is an encyclopedia article not a textbook or an affiliate website of EP's promotional organization.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant to this discussion. The issue was whether experts found the table accurate -- they did. Memills (talk) 18:45, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Who was the author of the table on that HBES web page? aprock (talk) 02:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, someone who was very, very knowledgeable. Memills (talk) 03:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any need for admin action here, but the involved editors do need to WP:AGF and talk to each other more about how to collaborate better. Memills exemplifies the problem of an expert working too closely with an article that involves his own work. He can hardly accuse anyone of WP:OUTING him if he used his own name as username and cited a bunch of work by himself to cement the obvious. His table is WP:SYN even if the items it contains are not WP:OR, unless he provides a good source for this way of organizing the material. When he gets over these problems he will be in a better position to collaborate, and then if there are still problems with the other editors pushing a POV, he'll be in a better position to seek help on that. He should ideally not add material sourced to his own work without at least discussing it on the talk page first to see if there are objections or better way to keep it neutral, to prevent edit warring that might look like WP:COI. It seems likely that all points of view can be fairly represented in this article without anyone getting too tweaked about it. If problems persist, give him a warning referencing this advice, and if that doesn't clear it up, then ask for admin action. I see he was blocked for edit warring already last month, so one warning should be enough for him to get the point. Dicklyon (talk) 01:20, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Re WP:OUTING I did not provide my full name, nor reference to my place of employment, or my professional webpage. In fact, as noted above, I removed this information after a personal threat was made.

I did not reference a bunch of my own articles -- I have referenced two.

As noted above, WP:SYN, the synthesis represented by the table was published at the professional website of evolutionary psychologists. If they accepted it, I see that as a "good source for this way of organizing the material."

Finally, I believe the core issue here has been brushed aside a bit. Take some time to read though the Talk page. We have a few editors who have engaged in WP:GAMING, WP:CENSOR, and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, and who have consistently worked to prevent sourced notable material from being presented, who have repeatedly deleted such material, who have plainly admitted a bias, have not contributed prose except that which negatively portrays the discipline, and have resisted requests to be more civil and truly collaborate. I really believe that they are not editing in good faith - to make the article an accurate representation of the discipline.

Are these editors' actions being examined as well here? This would take a bit of time reviewing archived Talk pages, and I imagine there is not too much time here for that. To have these issues examined, do I need to file a separate complaint? Memills (talk) 01:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)Memills (talk) 01:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

You have done nothing to show that you have any interest in collaborating, you consistently demonize those of your cooeditors who disagree with you, you polarize every debate into pro-/AntiEP camps even in discussions about completely editorial decisions such as wehter to present information in table form or prose, or whether a section is giving unnecessary details about circumstantial information. As for WP:OUT you can't have your cake and eat it: you consistently pull the professor card in debates, refer to your own expertise etc, but when we mention it it is outing?·Maunus·ƛ· 14:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

False -- the only time that I have done so is when an editor mentioned that a expert would be needed to determine if the table was an accurate representation of the discipline, and I then indicated that I was a professor who regularly teaches evolutionary psychology. That was the only time that I have "pulled out the prof card." I have suggested that editors turn to evolutionary psychology textbooks to review what should / should not be included on the page, and, use them as a reference to help to resolve disputes. Memills (talk) 18:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

You volunteered quite a while ago. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 01:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Correct, and, as I noted above, I deleted that material after a personal threat was made against me. Memills (talk) 01:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Volunteered it man, its reality. There is a reason I dont post my vita here The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 01:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

So much for the Delete button on Misplaced Pages... Memills (talk) 02:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Maunus and Aprock are both known for advancing an anti bio-whatever explanations to many things. On some issues I agree with them, but they seem to be pushing fringe ideas themselves on this one. Maunus also has a potential, but less evident WP:COI here, being a professional in a competing discipline. Tijfo098 (talk) 02:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Note Tijfo098 provides no evidence for this statement vis-a-vis Aprock and choses not to reply to queries to do so. ]. Gerardw (talk) 19:54, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

So anthropologists have an COI in relation to EP but Ep'ers don't? Interesting suggestion.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:09, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Right of course! Anthropologists have COI when commenting on Evolutionary Psychology! So Logical! The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 02:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Academic turf wars are unheard of . Tijfo098 (talk) 03:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

As this is the first time I've seen this brought up by you (and honestly the first time I recall you ever addressing me), I'll ask that if you feel that there is a problem with any of the edits I make to please provide diffs, pursue the usual dispute resolution, and/or bring the issue to the appropriate noticeboard. In the absence of any of the above, I will ask you to strike the above personal attack. aprock (talk) 02:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

And, Aprock, I would ask you to strike the links to my personal/professional websites that you included your post above. Memills (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)2

done. aprock (talk) 03:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks, I feel safe now. Memills (talk) 03:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Now this is an interesting premiss - that being a 'professional in a competing discipline' creates a COI. Presumably working within the discipline creates a COI too (actually, a much more obvious one), so nobody with any academic credentials should be allowed to contribute to articles? The mind boggles! (though whether it does so because this was advantageous to my hunter-gatherer ancestors, I'll not hazard a guess) AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:01, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, go ahead, guess. Here are the rules. Actually, it is a competing theoretical paradigm, thus the rancor. Memills (talk) 03:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

"Most anthropologists are unenthusiastic about evolutionary psychology" from What is Anthropology?, ISBN 0745323197, p. 138; on the next page, 139, you can read about the "academic turf wars". Tijfo098 (talk) 03:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I am well aware that evolutionary psychology is a 'competing theoretical paradigm' to anthropology. So what? Homepathy is a 'competing theoretical paradigm' to orthodox medicine. Does that make the criticisms of practitioners of orthodox medicine less valid? AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

As someone who has opposed both Memills and his many detractors, I occupy something of a middle ground on the page. When I started editing the page, Memills resisted adding appropriate coverage of EP criticisms, but I successfully got the criticisms added to the page (esp. the lead). He wasn't easy to work with, but he conceded when confronted with WP policy. Meanwhile, the various anti-EP editors have waged a strange campaign to distance EP from evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory gets a lot of credit, so the anti-EP crowd doesn't want to emphasize the roots that EP has in evolutionary theory. They say that EP isn't the only way to apply evolutionary theory to psychology, so we shouldn't let the article give the impression that evolutionary thinking leads to EP. (It turns out that the "other" way to apply evolutionary theory to psychology is also called "evolutionary psychology," so it's all very confusing.) Anyway, a bunch of people who oppose EP are piling on Memills because he's the number-one proponent of EP on the page, and it isn't pretty. Everyone should settle down and just stick to WP policy and to what our best sources say. We have some recent EP textbooks to use as sources, so we shouldn't have any problem agreeing what to put on the page. It looked for while that people were cooling off, but you can see that the lull was temporary. Nobody who disagrees with Memills treats EP as a legitimate field of study. If editors think that EP is illegitimate, of course they'll want to gang up on an EP professor. It's impossible to think that all this hostility derives from a difference of opinion about the use of tables. We should just get back to reporting on what our best sources say about EP instead of fighting all the time. Leadwind (talk) 03:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec) From a quick read-through of recent talk page sections in the article in question, it appears that Maunus and others seem to be trying to use their own opinion on what modern EP means in order to change the information covered in the articles. Coupling this with liberal usage of strawman arguments and other fallacies in order to prove that they are correct, they appear to be, essentially, shouting down Memills and the sources he is presenting. If there is any owning going on here, then it is by Maunus and others who are attempting to drive Memills off the page and are offhandedly disregarding the sources that Memills is presenting (when it has already been proven through revelation of Memills identity that he would know far more about the topic than them and has given sources to prove as such). Silverseren 03:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Leadwind's comment is a good summary above. Silverseren 03:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Leadwind's claim to occupy the 'middle ground' on the article talk page is somewhat disengenuous. He/she has instead used the talk page to promote a bizarre view of what the 'standard social sciences model' (a fictitious construct invented by EP) is in order to demonstrate the 'superiority' of evolutionary psychology - see Talk:Evolutionary psychology/Archive 4#Standard social sciences model. Ignoring the fact that Leadwind seems to have learned about the so-called SSSM from a biology professor, it rapidly becomes apparent that he/she considers the whole thing to be some sort of Marxist-dominated plot to deny human nature. Nonsense like this is supposed to be the 'middle ground'? I think not... AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Andy is half right. Please note that I claimed to occupy "something" of a middle ground, not "the" middle ground. I'm closer to Memills than to Andy, but then so is Encyclopedia Britannica. I know the SSSM quite well, having majored in psychology and sociology before EP was established. I'll allow his caricature of my opinions pass without comment. Unlike Andy, I have added both criticisms of EP to the page and positive elements, opposing Memills on one hand and the EP detractors on the other. That qualifies as something of a middle ground. Check the page's history since January, and you'll see for yourself the quality of my additions and of my sources. Anyway, Andy's "grumpy" charges against me are unfortunately a fine example of what we've come to expect on the EP talk page. People can be so mean. Leadwind (talk) 13:23, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I see you are back to your old schtick of pretending the Encyclopedia Britannica has a positive view on EP when in fact it has only two sentences about it one of which is mildly positve the other of which is critical.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:12, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I like Encyclopedia Britannica, as should every supporter of majority viewpoints. Curious editors are directed to the social behavior article, where we learn that EP's findings have been "impressive" and that they don't represent a "real danger" to liberal ideals. (I also count more than two sentences.) EBO also ventures certain criticisms of EP, which I dutifully cited on the EP page, because I believe in including both sides of the issue. I've gotten resistance from both sides when I have tried to cite EBO, so that suggests that the coverage in EBO must represent some sort of middle ground. If only we could just stick to what our best sources say, maybe there'd be less fighting. Leadwind (talk) 15:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes you have been met with resistance because EBO does not have an article about EP but only mentions it in passing - in the article about social behavior in animals written by an ethologist who is not a specialist in EP or in anthropology. Great source, great middle ground. You also didn't cite EBO but claimed it said a lot fo things that it didn't claim and I had to bring the cites to the talk page so other editors could see that there was indeed no independent coverage of Ep in the EBO.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:28, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem again comes back to sources. I like EBO because it's a great source for the majority viewpoint, and anyone can read it themselves. If you don't like EBO, please name a better source and tell us what that source says about EP. Let's just find good sources and report what they say. It should be simple. Leadwind (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

The apparently the Majority Viewpiont is that Evolutionary Psychology does not deserve an encyclopedic article. You know full well that I have produced source upon source at the talkpage, textbooks, articles and monographs published by university presses, none of which have been deemed worthy of inclusion by Memills who reserves the right of decision on pain of being ridiculed and battered if one disagrees with him.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:10, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Nobody 'knows the SSSM quite well', for the simple reason that it only exists in the mind of evolutionary psychologists. And that you claimed that 'the SSSM' was dominated by Marxism is easily verified: "The connection between Marxist intellectuals and the SSSM isn't really in dispute, is it?" . I note also that you seem to think that Socialist Worker is somehow a reliable source for assertions about the politics of Stephen Jay Gould (not that he was a social scientist in any case, but whatever...). Such half-baked conspiracy theories have no place in any scholarly context. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:52, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Andy, as fun as it would be to talk about Gould's Marxist motivations for opposing evolutionary explanations of human behavior, we're off-topic, and I'll let you have the last word. Leadwind (talk) 13:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

This dispute might be a good time for a knowledgeable, patient admin to explain whether the tables are WP:SYNTH. Memills' detractors say they are, but they don't explain what novel conclusion Memills is promoting through this supposed synthesis. Leadwind (talk) 13:35, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the tables are a synthesis or not, Maunus's original objection stands: that they are not about evolutionary psychology, but are instead an 'Overview of theoretical foundations' of evolutionary science in general - they are also inappropriate from a WP:MOS perspective, as they are presenting evidence better covered as conventional text. The difficulty seems to be that Memills is trying to write a textbook, rather than an encyclopaedia entry, and thus feels obliged to include 'everything' needed to understand the subject, whereas it would be better to direct questions about more general evolutionary science elsewhere. The snag with that of course is that he will not have the same control over the content that he hopes to achieve in this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

There is an agenda here. Leadwind caught it pretty well: "...the various anti-EP editors have waged a strange campaign to distance EP from evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory gets a lot of credit, so the anti-EP crowd doesn't want to emphasize the roots that EP has in evolutionary theory." The key here is what evolutionary psychologists believe are the essential theories to understand, not what you think is or is not essential. And, to determine what they think is essential, we can look to the evolutionary psychology textbooks -- and there the answer is clear: Darwin, Hamilton, Trivers, etc. EP cannot be understood without it. Memills (talk) 17:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump has stated that he believes that evolutionary psychology is "bollocks", Maunus refers to it as "the EP cult". Their arguments here are just an extension of what goes on constantly on the EP Talk page.

An reviewer uninvolved in the dispute, Tijfo098, above notes that "Maunus and Aprock are both known for advancing an anti bio-whatever explanations to many things." Another uninvolved reviewer above notes that "it appears that Maunus and others seem to be trying to use their own opinion on what modern EP means in order to change the information covered in the articles." There is an agenda here by these editors. I have lost faith that their agenda is to improve the EP page so that it accurately represents the discipline. Instead, by deleting material and blocking new material, they are attempting to hamstring the article.

Instead, it would be helpful if additional, uninvolved reviewers can take some time to review the Talk pages (the current one, as well as several recently archived ones) and help out by providing independent evaluations of the situation. Memills (talk) 16:16, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

And you have referred to Anthropologists as cultural determinists and Leadwind has referred to them as Marxists - so where does that leave us. Tijfo098 is not a neutral observer, nor is silver seren - both have had personal disputes with both of them over other issues in the past. You are clearly the one trying to OWN wp's coverage of wikipedia, you had had disputes with Viriditas for the same reasons the long before I even realized that the page on EP was more of an advertisement than an ecncyclopedia article. This is not your personal venue for promoting your discipline - you can do that at the HBES webpage or wherever else people will allo you to do EP lobby work. This is not the place.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The above reinforces my point about the need for neutral reviewers.

Many anthropologists self-identify as "cultural determinists" and the Cultural determinism page notes that it is "...is the belief that the culture in which we are raised determines who we are at emotional and behavioral level ... instead of biologically inherited traits" which I believe accurately characterizes your perspective. Leadwind has not referred to anthropologists as Marxists to my knowledge -- you added material to the EP page about claims of Marxism. My goal is not to "promote" my discipline, it is to insure that the article is an accurate overview of the discipline. Your goal apparently is to prevent that from happening since, after all, you believe it is a "cult." Memills (talk) 17:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

No, no anthropologists have identified as cultural determinists for the past 50 years. You have been told so by several anthropologists already. I am getting sick and tired about you telling me what my goals and opinions are, especially since you contradict my own statements about them. That is a violation of WP:TALK and WP:CIVIL. I encourage you to stop it and if you don't I do expect some of the administrators to take action against you. I do regret having referred to EP as a cult, I should know better. You are however exhibiting the extreme incapacity to see things from another viewpoint that is characteristic usually associated with the pejorative use of the word "cult", and that was what my statement implied. I said that out of frustration with your continued personal attacks and speculations about and characterizations of my motives, goals and opinions that you know nothing about. I apologize for having referred to you as behaving as if "brainwashed by the EP cult", that was uncivil and out of line. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Leadwind and I have suggested several times that the way to go forward is to rely on evolutionary psychology textbooks to resolve any disagreements about what should / should not be included on the page. You have consistently ignored that suggestion. Instead you have your own ideas about the field, which you believe trump what is actually presented in the textbooks. Your own ideas and perspectives don't trump the textbooks. Memills (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not the first time you decide to make flat out lies about my edits to the article, I have consistently used textbook sources, also while you were still citing your own conference papers. LEadwind had no acces to any textbooks himself and was begging me to write in lenghty quotes on the talkpage which I did untill I got tired of being his secretary. You are now again in violation of WP:TALK and WP:CIVIL. And for the second time I kindly ask you to retract your lies and accusations about me or I will have to seek stronger sanctions against you.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:43, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Making claims that other editors are "lying" isn't helpful. You have done this before to me, and to other editors on the Talk page. You have also moved and deleted my, and other editors', comments on the Talk page without our permission in clear violation of WP:TPO. Leadwind does own several evolutionary psychology textbooks. How many evolutionary psychology textbooks do you own? Memills (talk) 19:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes I have accused you of lying before, because you lied. Now you are doing it again, you can avoid the accusation if you stop lying about me. Leadwind owns textbooks now because you sent them to him. I own three and one of which I have cited from them on the page (workman and reader), which you should know because we have disccused them. Your only excuse if you have a medical condition affecting your longterm memory, if you can provide proof of this then I will retract my accusations of your lying about my edits, but not my accusations of you lying about my motivations and goals which you know nothing about. ·Maunus·ƛ· 20:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

People infer motivations and goals by your comments and your edits. Tell me where my inferences are wrong: You dislike evolutionary psychology. You believe that the field is based on false assumptions (such as a modular mind, etc.). You believe that EP leads to erroneous conclusions about human nature and human behavior, and that some of these are dangerous (or, if misused, could be dangerous). You feel that EP could be used to support right-wing or conservative political policies. You feel that it is very important that the issues be presented not just on the Evolutionary psychology controversy page, but throughout the Evolutionary psychology main page as well.

I'm all ears. Memills (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The fact that you are a professional psychologist does not give you the right to infer motivations or political viewpoints that I have note stated myself (such as my supposed fear of using EP to justify right wing viewpoints which I have explicitly denied on several occasions). I ask you to now a third time to retract you "inferences" or corroborate them with diffs. I state again that I have no strong feelings regarding evolutionary psychology as a discipline, although I must admit that I have not been favorably impressed with the few evolutionary psychologists I have had the (mis)fortune to interact with.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Everyone has a right to make their own inference -- in fact, they cannot help but do so. Thanks for the clarifications re your opinions. Memills (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes you can make your inferences but please keep them to yourself. We have policies such as WP:CIVIL and WP:TALK that clearly state that it is not permissible to use "inferences" about other editors as ad hominem arguments in discussions, or in order to disqualify people's arguments out of hand. You are consistently violating these policies and being nonchalant about it.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:54, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:CIVIL Note that "the Assume Good Faith guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of obvious contrary evidence." In my opinion, as evidenced by the long history on the Talk page and your edits, I am afraid that I have lost faith that you are an unbiased editor on the EP page, because of the pattern of actions I referred to in my opening comment above. Memills (talk) 00:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Please document that "pattern" by diffs or retract your personal attacks. (fourth request). Also are you seriously accusing me of editing in bad faith? Do you realize the gravity of such an accusation? Being biased does not mean acting in bad faith - you are biased, but I do believe you are acting in good, if misguided, faith. In anycase even if it were the case that I was a bad faith editor that would not excuse you from observing basic principles of civilty. ·Maunus·ƛ· 00:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

You opened this case. I said that I have "lost faith" that you are an unbiased editor, based on continual patterns of edits, and comments on the talk page. Whether you are editing in bad faith (or whether I am) is for others to judge now. Memills (talk) 02:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Once again I note that Memills is grossly misrepresenting my views. As is blindingly obvious from the context, I wasn't referring to EP as a whole as 'bollocks', but rather the suggestion that "large, tree-climbing apes evolved consciousness to take into account one's own mass when moving safely among tree branches". As I said at the time, "if this is the best that EP can say on consciousness, I'm going to propose we add it to the 'pseudoscience' category (or possibly 'fiction')." Now if anyone wishes defend this ludicrous 'explanation' for the evolution of consciousness as anything other than pseudoscience/bollocks, I will be most surprised. Prove me wrong... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump -- your own opinions (and mine too) about whether something is true or false are irrelevant to the content of the article. What is relevant is the sourced and notable material. The easiest place to find material relevant to EP are the evolutionary psychology textbooks. Memills (talk) 20:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

How exactly does that justify you making false claims about my beliefs? Or can you find evidence for these in your textbooks too? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Yep, there it is. On page 93. Memills (talk) 20:23, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Infantile... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Grumpy. Memills (talk) 20:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

A few quotes (below) exemplify Maunus' continued incivility to an editor, all taken from just one recent brief post:

• You don't know what you are talking about.
• You also have no business coming here just to slander me and side anyone with whom I happen to be in disagreement just because I happen to have chastised you for making antisemitic generalizations a month ago.
• You clearly know nothing about what is going on at this page and you are not being helpful to anyone.
• So please back off Seren and go do some reading before mouthing off here.

'nuff said. Memills (talk) 02:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment The "Standard Social Science Model," as commentators here have pointed out, is a figment of some collective imagination or another. It is not a model adhered to by any sociologists or anthropologists I know. Here's an apropos definition of SSRM. I find it quite ironic that a group of scholars who are constantly whining about how other scholars misrepresent evolutionary psychology maintain that all sociologists, psychologists and anthropologists today believe in caricatures of human nature like the "noble savage" or caricatures of human cognition like the "blank slate." Nothing could be further from reality. I have to admit that I don't know much about EP, but I sure as heck know that the straw man they have erected as their whipping boy is a phantom.Griswaldo (talk) 21:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue of the correct definition, or validity, of the SSSM is irrelevant to this ANI.

However, interested readers can see Tooby and Cosmides' Evolutionary Psychology Primer. They coined the term, and they give a brief definition in the primer. Memills (talk) 01:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

And we are supposed to take ignorant garbage like that seriously? Frankly, it has about as much credibility as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. As has already been pointed out 'the SSSM' is a figment of EP's collective imagination, and if this is the best they can come up with, I think they show little evidence of having much of that. If you are going to try to insult other academic fields, at least try to do it with a little more style...

For the benefit of those who are willing to take this ludicrous 'blank slate' theory seriously, ask yourself how a statement that "our universal human psychological architecture has no distinctive structure that organizes the social world or imbues it with characteristic meanings" could possibly be reconciled with the structuralist approach of Claude Lévi-Strauss for example, or indeed with Freudian psychology, or with any form of research that compares one society with another, and seeks to understand what is common to them, and what is different. Actually, if one takes the 'blank slate' theory literally, such research would be impossible. I well remember my first 'introduction to social anthropology' lecture as an undergraduate, which began with the lecturer stating that anthropology was based on "the psychic unity of mankind" - that we could only understand each other because beneath the sociocultural differences there were things we held in common - that communication, and understanding, could transcend cultural boundaries. The methodology of anthropology for example is predicated on this premise, and if there is a field within the social science that doesn't work on the same assumptions, I am unaware of it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Can this be closed?

It's obvious that it's only being used to argue content issues and nothing is going to get resolved here. Silverseren 08:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:BATTLEGROUND WP:COI behavior?

Admin User:JzG has blocked User:James Cantor (who identifies himself as James Cantor) for repeatedly editing the biographies of some professionals that disagree with him in real life on professional issues (disagreements recorded in print academic publications). The block has now expired. Admin User:DGG however seems to think that the block was unjustified and that Cantor tagging with {{notability}} the biographies of people with whom he has had real-life disagreements is not a problem but a way to improve Misplaced Pages. I have asked DGG to reconsider his position on his talk page, but he asked that the discussion not be continued there. Since DGG is an admin, I thought this would be the proper venue to continue the discussion. Tijfo098 (talk) 21:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

how the heck is DGG encouraging battleground tactics, or have a conflict of interest, here? he said that he didn't think the article tagging was justified, but that tagging the articles was not disruptive. How does that indicate that he's encouraging battleground tactics or that he himself has some sort of conflict of interest?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Where did I say DGG has a conflict of interest? Tijfo098 (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not terribly clear, to me, exactly what you're asking for, or who has done what. Are you seeking some sort of action against User:DGG, or against User:James Cantor? How did you come to the conclusiong that DGG "seems to think that the block was unjustified", and why is that relevant? This report is confusing.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, I thought the block was also unjustified. It looks to me that James Cantor was blocked for having a COI, and not any actual disruption. Does James Cantor have a topic ban that I'm unaware of? I've already commented at Cantor's talk page to explain further. -- Atama頭 22:37, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It's perfectly correct to say that I thought the block unjustified, because I said so in just those terms on the user talk page. I prefer not to block or unblock in a situation that involves things I've worked on, or I would have unblocked. I have frequently said here before that admins should avoid anything at all that might possibly be interpreted as over-involvement, true or false,& I try to follow my own advice. I gather the block is still in effect for a few hours, and I very strongly urge somebody to lift it. I would certainly unblock in a similar situation where I had no prior contact with the people. As for battleground behavior, it's pretty clear who I think is currently engaged in it. DGG ( talk ) 23:25, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

The block ended about 5 hours ago. I tried to unblock when James made his most recent unblock request and couldn't because a block was no longer in effect. -- Atama頭 23:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that MuZemike and Atama tried unblocking me at about the same time and "unblock-conflicted".

My remaining concern, for which I would appreciate input, is whether I am supposed to follow JzG's restrictions on threat of more blocking (which amounts to a topic ban) despite that the other admins who have so far commented said that I have been acting within the relevant guidelines. My original (and unanswered) response to JzG is on my userpage here, and the subsequent block discussion is here.

— James Cantor (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

James Cantor was autoblocked when he shouldn't have been (which I don't know why the autoblock was still up). –MuZemike 04:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The way I see it, this is green light for the following involvement of experts in Misplaced Pages. Expert 1 writes a paper, proposal, whatever, in some academic publishing venue. Expert 2 publishes a rebuttal or a paper disagreeing with expert 1, again in an academic venue. Expert 1, who is also a Misplaced Pages editor, tags the WP:BLP Misplaced Pages biography of expert 2 with {{notablity}}, meaning non-notability of course. Tijfo098 (talk) 23:35, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

And what if Expert 2 has a valid reason for the tag? I don't see a problem here. -- Atama頭 00:16, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Just for the record: The first thing I did was to state the issue on the talk page here, and the other editor in the discussion suggested the tag here, which I then enacted here.

If there is anything else I could have done to make the issue more explicit for other interested editors, I don't know what it is.

— James Cantor (talk) 00:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Expert 2 doesn't edit Misplaced Pages to begin with. Do we want experts tagging each others' biographies here when they have a real-life conflict? Is that the new purpose of Misplaced Pages? Tijfo098 (talk) 00:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Linking WP:BATTLEGROUND is a senseless non sequitur. If you want to know what the Misplaced Pages guidelines are for a situation like this, read WP:COI. If you have a problem with our guidelines, start a discussion on the talk page there. There is also WP:COIN (where I tend to hang out). But basically what you're describing isn't explicitly disallowed on Misplaced Pages. -- Atama頭 00:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I might also add that there is a very relevant line in BATTLEGROUND you should consider, "Assume good faith that every editor and group is here to improve Misplaced Pages—especially if they hold a point of view with which you disagree." -- Atama頭 00:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, Guy was never informed that someone had started a discussion here that included him, I've now informed him. -- Atama頭 00:21, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

• I would like to be entirely clear here: I have no objection to Cantor editing in his field of expertise, I do object to to his editing of articles on living individuals with whom he has off-wiki disputes. His reaction to a warning on this was to repudiate the basis of the warning: - this is, I think pretty uncontroversial. An individual with real-world conflicts editing the biographies of those with whom he is in conflict and asserting that there is no reaosn why he should not, that warnings are invalid? That is an unequivocal rejection of WP:COI and not acceptable. Hence the shot across the bows. Guy (Help!) 00:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

• So his rejection of the COI guideline that makes suggestions about how an editor can edit Misplaced Pages without causing problems is a justification for blocking? COI is not a policy, and isn't enforceable without a community ban. When did admins get the unilateral right to block someone for having a COI? The diff you provided looked like you were single-handedly placing a topic ban on an editor, which admins don't have the ability to do. I had hoped there was some blatant disruption on James Cantor's part that I had missed but it looks like I was incorrect. So again, tell me, what discretionary sanction were you operating under? -- Atama頭 00:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Funny, DGG had threatened to block another editor over COI/DE for simply commenting on a talk page. What changed in the policies since then? Tijfo098 (talk) 01:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

It was a borderline legal threat. Did Cantor do something similar? As I've said repeatedly, there needs to be disruption along with the COI before a block can be levied. Even WP:COI states as much, to prevent the kind of block that happened against James Cantor. Guy attempted to place a topic ban on James Cantor, which is completely in conflict with the banning policy. "Except as noted above, individual editors, including administrators, may not directly impose bans." The exception is when discretionary sanctions apply, which is why I asked about it before. Frankly, Guy's directive to James Cantor was unenforceable. If you wish for there to be a topic ban against James Cantor, however, this board we're posting on is the perfect place to initiate it. Just make your argument as to why the ban is necessary and ask for community input. You can't, however, ask an admin to ban someone for you, we can't do that. -- Atama頭 02:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

How was it a legal threat? The editor threatened with a block there by DGG seems to have simply written that he had been sued already, which created the COI. Tijfo098 (talk) 02:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

And if you and DGG are concerned about expert retention, you may want to pay some attention to the thread just above this one, where an expert is being accused of the utmost impropriety of wanting to include an overview table of the field previously written by him but which has apparently been published by the foremost professional organization in the field on their web site. James Cantor has also added a number of external links to his personal website to various articles, which has created a ruckus in itself—there's a thread in the EL/N archives— but I am not complaining about stuff like that, I'm only concerned about his editing of his opponents' biographies to disparage them, and the encouragement he now receives from some administrators in that direction. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Tijfo's comment is rather a half truth. Missing from his (?) opinion are this COI guideline:

Using material you yourself have written or published is allowed within reason, but only if it is relevant and conforms to the content policies.

Remember: an editor with a self-evident interest in the matter turning up on the talk page is an indication that they are playing it straight.

and my many, many, many talkpage entries doing exactly that: , , , , etc., etc., ...

Well okay, I guess that makes Tijfo's comment somewhat less than a half, but I think the point is clear. I have every desire and every conceivable demonstration of following WP:COI, including even its optional recommendations. The only, and I mean only dissatisfied editors are those with whom I have had one or another content dispute, typically because the scientific POV I added to a page disagrees with their own POVs.

— James Cantor (talk) 04:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I do not recall the two of us having something that can be really called a content dispute here. And I probably agree with you on most sexuality-related topics—"probably" because I don't know your position on everything. The closest thing that comes to a content dispute between us (that I can remember) is this thread, where you asked for sources justifying the discussion of homosexuality on the paraphilia page. Are you saying that I have a grudge on you for that? Tijfo098 (talk) 01:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I was referring to edit disputes in which I find myself on sexuality pages in general, not any with you specifically. Hans Adler just captured the idea perfectly, below.— James Cantor (talk) 14:31, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think James Cantor's behavior on wikipedia has been way over the top since the beginning, with various bits of WP:COI driving most of it; and his putting a notability tag on the bio of a person that he has an off-wiki dispute with is certainly unacceptable. Maybe a warning would have been better than a block, though, as he does tend to toe the line when it's pointed out to him. Dicklyon (talk) 01:28, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I think we need to accept that there are situations when people can put notability tags on the biographies of someone they have an off-wiki dispute with - eg, in cases where the person may not be notable and tagging for notability is objectively justified. To argue otherwise is simply to suppose that people can't behave responsibly or like grown-ups on Misplaced Pages. Assuming that won't encourage responsible behavior or editing; just the opposite. 203.118.184.13 (talk) 03:18, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

"won't encourage responsible behavior or editing; just the opposite" like not signing in to your account before commenting at ANI? Tijfo098 (talk) 03:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

More like assuming bad faith and making an accusation like the above. 203.118.184.13 (talk) 03:35, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

So not letting him tag articles of his opponents is an assumption of bad faith? How about you nominate WP:COI for deletion then? Because it's all an assumption of bad faith in the same vein. Tijfo098 (talk) 04:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages operates by consensus, and it's really not up to individual editors to "let" other editors do or not do particular things. More to the point, it is indeed assuming bad faith to suppose that someone cannot possibly be permitted to edit an article about an opponent, if his edits seem unproblematic in themselves and other editors might have made them in good faith. 203.118.185.58 (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, 203.118.185.58, I think the consensus is that the notability tag on the rival's BLP was _not_ objectively justified. As I recall, not even DGG supported it. BitterGrey (talk) 05:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I was commenting on the general principle at stake rather than the rights or wrongs of this particular case. But see WhatamIdoing's comments, about the lack of evidence for both Cantor's supposed rivalry with Moser and for Moser's notability. 203.118.185.151 (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

(←) Let me put it in simple terms. Administrators can't place bans on editors without having a discretionary sanction first. That's pretty much the end of the discussion. Nobody has refuted this, or can refute it. If you don't like it, start an RFC. If you want a ban on a particular person, propose one and see what the community thinks. Otherwise this is all just noise. -- Atama頭 06:09, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

User:JzG didn't ban James Cantor, he blocked him for disruptive editing. An he'll probably block him again next time Cantor does something like that. If you disagree, you can unblock Cantor, because you're an admin too, I gather. Tijfo098 (talk) 06:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Telling someone they cannot edit an article is a ban. Ignore that all you want, but that's a fact. I'm assuming it was done in error, but if I see it again, I'll have to start an RFC. Administrators cannot ban editors unilaterally, and an attempt to do so is a claim of authority an administrator doesn't have. -- Atama頭 06:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Lots of edits to read. I do not see grounds for asserting that James Cantor rather more likely, however, that consensus would be reached for a ban on WP:BLP articles in the field, given his numerous documented real-world disputes. from any material I read, and, in fact, that COI is a straw man argument here. Nor did I see his edits as "disruptive" to the point where a block would be preventative. They certainly did not reach any stage where they made untrue claims about any person, and WP:BLP still applies to any contentious edits in them. If he violated WP:BLP and consensus were reached on a block, that would be an entirely different issue. BTW, the COI argument would imply that no expert could ever edit in their own field, as every expert has presumably had interactions with others in the field. I do not think such an extention of COI is wise. Collect (talk) 11:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Two points on my mind:

• I'm the editor who suggested tagging Charles Allen Moser with {{Notability}}. Why? Because editors are supposed to tag articles if they have BLP-related notability concerns. You're not supposed to let them sit and rot in the hopes that maybe, someday, we'll have sources, and maybe, possibly, if we all cross our fingers, no harm will come to the subject in the meantime.
  In case someone's interested in the details, at that time, there were a whopping four (4) sources cited in the article that weren't co-authored by Moser, and their contents were as trivial as " 10. Charles Allen Moser, unpublished doctoral dissertation for the Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality, completed August 1979". That's 100% of the material about Moser in one of those four sources, and it is not even close to what we mean by "significant coverage".
  Since then, the professional trans activist who encouraged JzG to block Cantor, Jokestress (talk · contribs), whose own website has many pages attacking Cantor, e.g., for "notably virulent" transphobia—has found a handful of additional independent sources. However, my spot check of these sources hasn't turned up a single one with true "in-depth coverage" about the person we've inflicted this article on. We've got a longer string of single-sentence sources, e.g., WP:INTEXT attributions like "According to several researchers, notably Charles Moser and JJ Madeson in their book...", or uncritical, unanalyzed direct quotations from works the subject co-authored. This is what the folks at AFD usually call the "passing mention", which is a distinctly poor indication of notability, especially for a living person. If this were a company or a product, we'd all be at AFD right now, and you'd all be screaming delete, rather than trying to punish someone for correctly flagging a possible problem for attention from the community exactly as recommended by our policies.
• I see that a couple of people have asserted here and elsewhere that Cantor—who does actually count as a living person under our policies, even on this page—has treated Moser badly by wondering aloud whether the apparent lack of "significant coverage" means that Misplaced Pages shouldn't inflict a badly sourced article on Moser. There are have been explicit claims that Cantor and Moser are in some sort of rivalry or academic feud. I want to know: Where are your sources for that contentious claim about these two BLPs? Perhaps some folks are simply showing how gullible they are by repeating Jokestress' assertion that they're rivals, but I've never yet seen the smallest evidence that this alleged rivalry actually exists in the real world, or even a credible explanation of why such a rivalry would prompt Cantor to promote Moser's papers on Misplaced Pages. I've provided sources proving that Jokestress has a real-world feud with Cantor; it didn't even take two minutes to find them. So where are yours to show that Cantor and Moser have a real-world rivalry? (Hint: Merely failing to agree 100% on a given academic point isn't the same thing as having a "rivalry" or "feud".) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm going to notify User:Jokestress that you are discussing her statements here. Tijfo098 (talk) 17:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oh, and if you think that Moser guy is not notable WP:AFD or {{prod}} his bio. ANI is not the place to decide that. Tijfo098 (talk) 17:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
    • ANI is, however, the ideal forum for deciding whether any editor should be blocked for expressing concern about the notability of a BLP. That's why you started this discussion here, isn't it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Orrather, whether an editor who has numerous off-wiki disputes should be permitted to edit the Misplaced Pages articles on individuals with whom he is in dispute. To which the answer is, in general, no. It's not like this is the first time someone has been told to lay off articles on people with whom they have off-wiki disputes. Cantor seems happy to undertake not to edit some articles directly, according to his user page, so I don't even see why this is a problem for him let alone anyone else. Commenting on the talk page is fine. Guy (Help!) 18:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Full support for the block - No editor should edit the article of living people they have citable off wiki disputes with - User:James Cantor either needs to back off or we need to consider a topic ban. There are a couple of others that also would benefit from a topic ban, its not just James, user:Jokestress is another, Cantor is highlighted because of his real life name - the whole area is overloaded with over involved contributors. Off2riorob (talk) 19:07, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

@Guy: Orrather, whether an editor who has numerous off-wiki disputes should be permitted to edit the Misplaced Pages articles on individuals with whom he is in dispute. That's a reasonable suggestion, but that would require either a policy change or perhaps arbitration. What you're suggesting is a change to what is considered a blockable offense on Misplaced Pages. Right now, there is no such thing as a blockable offense for COI outside of discretionary sanctions. That discussion can happen, and might be a good one to have. But I'll caution you, we couldn't even decide on whether or not we should consider being paid to edit an article to be a blockable offense, which is a far more blatant form of COI, I don't have a lot of hope to get a policy change for an even greyer area like this.

@Off2riorob: Full support for the block - No editor should edit the article of living people they have citable off wiki disputes with - User:James Cantor either needs to back off or we need to consider a topic ban. It sounds like you're saying two contradictory things. Should there be a topic ban, or can James Cantor be blocked without a topic ban? I'm sure anyone would be hard-pressed to find a way to support the latter. Anyone who is an administrator should know very well that we can't initiate topic bans on our own, heck, just about every RfA I've seen in the past couple of years includes the question "what is the difference between a block and a ban" for a good reason. As to the former, I think it's reasonable to suggest a ban for one or more people involved in this dispute, I'll leave it up to someone more familiar with the history here than me to draft such a suggestion. -- Atama頭 19:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't completely disagree with Off2riorob's principle, but I'm still waiting for someone to provide name a reliable source that shows this alleged "citable off-wiki disputes" involving Cantor and Moser. I've been having trouble finding reliable sources that even name both of them on the same page, but perhaps someone else's search skills are better than mine.

We are making accusations about real people here, folks. This affects more than the editors: This affects Moser, too. Misplaced Pages hits high in the search engine rankings. A relatively obscure researcher (Moser) shouldn't have the world told that he's in an academic feud with a somewhat better-known researcher just so that one or more of us can gain an upper hand in a pretty simple content dispute. We need to either cough up some citations to support these allegations of an academic dispute, or we need to start striking comments and quit making administrative decisions based on unsupported and possibly false allegations of an off-wiki dispute. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

@Atama - I don't support restrictions at all really - I support the involved users getting the idea and moving away from editing in their involved sector - if they don't do that - I support restricting them via topic bans - wikipedia is not benefiting at all from them attempting to insert their strongly held involved opinions into articles, this is especially important in relation to articles about living opponents of theirs ...about living people. Off2riorob (talk) 22:00, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with you there, Off2riorob, on a case-by-case basis of course, if their edits violate WP:NPOV that can't be allowed. -- Atama頭 22:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, try this (doi:10.1007/s10508-008-9436-8), and note that Cantor is coauthor to the Blanchard 2008 paper (DSM-5 proposal) as noted in his bio here. He somehow took interest in the bio of Karen Franklin as well; do I have to spell it out how that is a COI as well? Tijfo098 (talk) 23:46, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

WTF? Moser contradicted a paper of which Cantor was an author? That's all you have, and you present it as if it was a smoking gun? I really don't see what's wrong in general with academics editing their colleagues' articles so long as they do it fairly. If you want to make a case against Cantor you must (1) prove that he is so irate about the people whose biographies he edited that even though his edits may look innocuous, we must assume that he did it for some secret dark motives, or (2) prove that there was something wrong, or at the very least tendentious, with his edits.

Now the field of sexology may cause strong feelings in those who have personal problems related to this field. But when you assume that therefore academics working in the field who disagree with each other must automatically be enemies, then that's pure projection. A proper academic feels passionately about his or her field, but not in the same way as someone whose aberration/lifestyle/whatever is under examination. That's not to say that there is never fighting between academics working in the same field, but the normal assumption is that they get along with each other rather well, even where they disagree. And it would be absolutely stupid for an academic editing under his real name to do anything controversial concerning a colleague. This kind of thing always comes out and causes a bad reputation. That's practically a guarantee that there will no improper edits by Cantor. If we ever get hard evidence that in fact he doesn't care about his reputation and edits improperly, then we can still look at this again, but so far absolutely no such evidence has been presented. Hans Adler 00:01, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I assume you want the animosities to rise to the level similar to that in thread above this one (on EP) where self-identified anthropologists were in bash mode on an EP prof before something is done? Also, it's best to wait for Jokestress to reply, because I'm hardly familiar with Moser's work. I just pointed out what I could find in a few minutes. Tijfo098 (talk) 00:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, you essentially say that "sexual minorities" have more of a conflict of interest in editing sexology articles than sexologists themselves have describing their own work in Misplaced Pages, or that of those other sexologists they disagree with. Interesting line of thought. Can we extend that to ethnicity for instance? It's also a core part of many editors' identity. Tijfo098 (talk) 01:12, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

May I suggest that this entire thread is getting seriously tendentious and is not actually accomplishing anything? It might be a good idea to have the whole thing shut down as pointless, and the thread archived. 203.118.184.9 (talk) 02:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I said no such thing. I said they are more likely to be pissed when someone characterises their lifestyle as an aberration that needs treatment, or when someone characterises the uncurable condition that has destroyed their life as a mere lifestyle choice – whichever applies from the POV of the respective individual. In addition, there are also editors who get involved to prevent damage to society – which may be a perfectly legitimate reaction, or an instance of moral panic, but in either case will also tend to make conflicts acrimonious. Both types of editor are likely to blow normal, civilised academic disputes way out of proportion, and as far as I can tell that is precisely what has happened here.

The same principle does apply to ethnicities. An actual, bona fide scientific researcher in a field related to ethnicity, editing the articles of his colleagues whom he regularly meets at conferences and exchanges emails with in between, is likely to be more self-restrained and therefore more neutral, and also to be much more knowledgeable about the subjects, than an lay editor who edits such an article because he or she feels that the subject's research is all wrong or offensive.

The only way someone can do real research is by being sufficiently detached from their field to notice contradictions to their own theories. In science there is (supposed to be) a strong culture of openness to all forms of criticism, which must be dealt with constructively. It's not enough to hypothesise that in the case of a specific researcher and editor this culture may have broken down, and something may have been a motive for improper behaviour, when there is no evidence that improper behaviour ever occurred. Maybe your instincts are right, and maybe there is proof for this, but you haven't made a convincing case, or in fact any case at all. It looks just like a witch hunt. At some point this pounding on vague suspicions with no evidence and no disruption other than that caused by an overreacting admin really has to stop, as it's already in the territory of unsubstantiated personal attacks.

(Please note that I am taking no position whatsoever on the science here. I have no experience whatsoever with unusual sexual interests beyond having a few homo- or bisexuals among my friends. I am not interested in these topics, but on the other hand I am not damaged by a hypocritical upbringing. I have no strong or unusual positions either way. But I do have strong positions on the ability of academics to contribute to Misplaced Pages in their field unless and until they are actually breaking the rules.) Hans Adler 12:46, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Does the "strong culture of openness" include removing criticism of your work from Misplaced Pages under WP:2LAW? Tijfo098 (talk) 23:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

(1) We should look at the full picture. (2) He removed this letter to the editor from the lead of a medical article. In that context WP:MEDRS#Choosing sources applies, and it says: "Peer reviewed medical journals are a natural choice . They contain a mixture . Although almost all such material will count as a reliable source for at least some purposes, not all the material is equally useful, and some, such as a letter from a non-expert, should be avoided."

I am not saying the edit was ideal, but it was not criminal and it was 14 fucking months ago. If that's the best concrete evidence you have, then you have nothing. (I find the letter to the editor that he removed very convincing, and if I had seen this edit I guess I would have restored it.) Hans Adler 23:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

From the Moser article Dr. Cantor removed a quotation saying that Moser is "well-known". (This was done before he tagged Moser's biography for notability.) Perhaps the quotation was wp:undue, but this wasn't clearly argued in the edit summary. Presumably Moser's notability doesn't hinge on the recognition he receives in that quote, but I'm not going to speculate on his notability any further. My opinion from the helicopter is that those edits in sequence look questionable. Tijfo098 (talk) 00:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

A lot of editors, including myself, routinely remove vague puffery and peacock terms like "well-known", "leading", and "notable" from all sorts of articles. That's a very typical and directly recommended good-editor behavior. If you want to improve Misplaced Pages today, then here's one list containing hundreds of similarly puffed-up BLPs that you could be improving. I'm sure you'd have no trouble finding hundreds more. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. Presumably the whole reason for having an article about someone is that they are well known - there would scarcely be any point to having an article about him or her otherwise. Tijfo098 is straining to find examples of sinister behavior by James Cantor, but isn't succeeding very well. 203.118.185.73 (talk) 06:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I would not have advised anyone to bring this matter here, because neither the specific situation nor any general issue was likely to be advanced, but rather that bad feelings would expand concentrically. So it has--witness the above general discussion, What business do we have here discussing the motivations of people editing in this field? As for the reliability of people editing in their own academic specialties, academics can be just as pig-headed as anyone else, except that their quarrels are likely to extend way beyond the Misplaced Pages scale in duration, extent, and rhetorical skill. There may be some fields of science where people are open-minded about criticism, but it certainly does not apply to anything having immediate RW applications, especially in the social sciences. And I read some of the arguments above as saying that transsexuals should not be editing articles about transsexuality, which makes as much sense as saying heterosexuals should not edit articles about that aspect of human life. It depends upon the editing. There's been a lot of bad editing in the present field; almost everyone editing in it has a very strong POV. Cantor's editing in this instance was not disruptive, and that is all that needs to be considered with respect to him. (And yes, this does imply that Guy's block was disruptive, & I think that proven by events.) If we need to change general rules, common sense would indicate that we should not do so in the context of a particular case, especially a case necessarily involving emotions of this degree of magnitude. DGG ( talk ) 22:54, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you that there's plenty of disagreement on this matter (as we found out in this thread), so it's unlikely to get resolved by consensus. (But hey, it's less absurd to debate this issue than to dramatize the MOS:DASH.) Tijfo098 (talk) 23:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment: WP:COI says "A Misplaced Pages conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Misplaced Pages, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing is strongly discouraged. When editing causes disruption to the encyclopedia through violation of policies accounts may be blocked. " As a result, whilst "COI" is often loosely thrown around where editors have personal or business links, it doesn't lead to blocks unless clear disruption is shown. The blocking threshold should be substantially higher when the alleged COI editor is both editing with their real name and is notable enough to have their own wikipedia entry (which can lead to such kerfuffles affecting their reputation). The bottom line is that COI editing is not banned per se, and admins can't sanction it unless it becomes clearly and unambiguously disruptive - a judgement that must be made after a large dose of WP:AGF and attempted education of the user. Rd232 01:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm also quite willing to WP:AGF, but one needs to consider the long term history of edits as well, as ArbCom has done in a recently closed case. For example, with his previous (and acknowledged) account Dr. Cantor edited the biography of User:Jokestress (who identifies as Andrea James), to add a certain incident to the lead as well as the expression "controversial American transsexual" (that expression, which is not in the source cited, reminds me of a "left-wing Professor of Biology"; James is described as "a Hollywood-based trans-consumer advocate and an entrepreneurial consultant on trans issues" in the source). I'll let you judge for yourself if that incident, which received only a paragraph in press as part of a larger story, is lead-worthy material in any WP:BLP. Dr. Cantor also pushed the text beyond what NYT wrote, which is only "sexually explicit captions", which became "sexually explicit obsenities written over them" in Misplaced Pages. I understand that an agreement was struck in which he agreed to avoid making such edits. Tijfo098 (talk) 05:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

That's three years ago - ancient history. Granted that it wasn't good editing, Cantor hasn't done anything remotely like that for a long time, and I don't think a fair-minded person would hold it against him now or use it as a reason to ban Cantor from anything. I think all parties to this thread should acknowledge that it isn't serving a useful purpose. Either propose sanctions against someone - against Cantor for his supposed COI and disruptive editing or against JzG for blocking him disruptively - or else just drop the whole thing. 203.118.185.73 (talk) 06:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

That's a pretty good point until you realise that that particular edit occurred 3 days after the creation of what you say is Cantor's previous account. Unless he had undisclosed other, earlier accounts (I have no idea but given that he changed accounts very openly it doesn't seem very likely), this relativises things quite a bit. It's still a valid point, but it's also not the kind of smoking gun that requires us to ABF him three years later. Hans Adler 11:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, it would be unfair to deny that his editing skills have improved over time. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Continuation of Editing from 125.162.150.88 (Jack Merridew)

While there was an active ANI thread about the behaviour of 125.162.150.88 (talk), Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive692#Editing_from_125.162.150.88_.28Jack_Merridew.29, the IP was blocked for edit warring on Template talk:Rescue . After not editing for a few days, the IP has gone back to similar behaviour:

• 4RR on Template talk:Rescue
• See also:

This IP is apparently an editor who was previously banned by arbcom for harassing editors Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Moby_Dick and for socking Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Moby_Dick#Request_for_clarification_and_indefinite_block_of_Moby_Dick.2C_April-May_2007. The user was unbanned Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Jack_Merridew_ban_review_motion under an agreement. The IP withdrew that agreement . (Under the agreement he was allowed to edit from only one account, User:Jack Merridew. See also .)

This editor attempts to cloud the issues by claiming everyone else is harassing him, eg Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive692#Sortable_tables_RFC and . Pursuant to I have not notified the IP of this particular thread; the previous thread was only recently archived .

Although ArbCom is discussing this User_talk:Risker#User:125.162.150.88, User_talk:John_Vandenberg#Jack_.3B.29, enough is enough. Propose community ban. Gimmetoo (talk) 04:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• WP:BOOMERANG for all the insistent detractors would be the proper outcome for this. Gimme should be de-sysoped as unfit. 125.162.150.88 (talk) 11:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed community ban

• Oppose community ban. From what I've seen Merridew is more hasslee than hassler. Reyk _YO! 04:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
• See also Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Jack Merridew Let arbcom handle it, they unbanned Merridew, and imposed the account restriction he now seems to be disregarding. They get to clean up the mess. Chester Markel (talk) 04:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
• I don't claim that stuff like is acceptable behavior, though. Chester Markel (talk) 04:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support ban. Some examples of his comments include:

as an unhelpful idiot; further rationale on my talk. Vulcans are supposed to have some sense, and SoV wadded-in on the side of teh toxic trolls infesting this site.

rv fuckwit; ya, you trolls have outted me)

His comments are not helpful toward building the encyclopedia and he appears to be trying to be semi-anonymous when acting as an IP, making inside jokes with his friends and then loudly claiming outing when anyone points out his publically known identity. Silverseren 04:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

As noted above by Chester, Jack has also willingly decided to over-rule the Arbcom restriction, by his own words. Silverseren 04:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: Without going into the specifics of this particular case, the Arbitration Committee will rarely stand in the way of a community decision to remove an editor from the project. Risker (talk) 05:12, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

  But you'll stand in the way of a cluful editor who called you on your bad block of GregJackP and make a plain allusion to privileged information while warning me off. Jack 09:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.162.150.88 (talk)

• Regardless of the ban proposal though, what is Arbcom's response to Jack saying that he won't be following the restriction? Silverseren 05:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support, as he's evading his ban. GoodDay (talk) 05:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• He can't be evading a ban, as he isn't banned. He is merely restricted to editing from one account. Silverseren 05:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, well then, ban him for continuing disruptive behaviour. GoodDay (talk) 20:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support community ban per Silver seren, subject to reversal if checkuser indicates this isn't him. No need to allow Merridew to continue his attacks. Chester Markel (talk) 05:17, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
• Comment As far as I am aware, User:Jack Merridew is not banned. His main account is indeffed because it was compromised, so even if it is him it is impossible for him to comply with the arbcom restriction to edit from "Jack Merridew" only. N419BH 05:27, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• The edit restriction is to edit from a single account, not the Jack Merridew one. So, thus far, in editing just from his static IP, he has been following the restrictions. But now he made a comment to the case section that he is refusing to follow them, which presumably means he is now making other accounts. Silverseren 05:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• The restriction limits him to the account Jack Merridew by name, with the exception of an approved bot account. His main account was editing on March 26, so checkuser might be able to determine if it was really compromised, or just assumed to be because of extremely disruptive editing. But if a compromised account were the only issue, he could have created a new one such as "Jack Merridew II" to comply with the arbcom decision to the best of his ability, and refrained from characterising editors as "fuckwits" and such. His recent contributions have been most unhelpful. Chester Markel (talk) 05:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• This is a sad situation where an intelligent and potentially valuable editor with truly disruptive tendencies has managed to garner a lot of friends in high places due to his good aspects; which can be quite excellent. Those that have experienced and know his bad aspects are often at odds with his supporters: like we're talking about two different people . But there's no separating the good from the bad; and multiple editors have not been "harassing" him - that's absurd. It is ultimately ArbCom's call at this point, so I personally think a community ban proposal here is doomed. His increased negativity, game playing and marked incivility, especially over the last several months, has been unfortunate indeed. Doc talk 05:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

  "sad"? "unfortunate"? Bullshit, you want more than anything to get me. 125.162.150.88 (talk) 11:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

  • Look at the links to the off-wiki stuff. There's definite harassment and attempted, detailed outing there. N419BH 05:45, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Then he should have privately contacted arbcom, if the material could have been shown to originate from present editors. There's no justification for swearing at and insulting everyone. This needs to stop. Chester Markel (talk) 05:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict)What off-wiki stuff? Are you referring to the link to a webpage made 6 months ago that he mentions himself as a smear? He has posted on the Misplaced Pages the claim that his real name is "David", that part of one of the names of one of his socks even. And does anyone believe that's a real picture of him? Where would they find it at? Did he create that "smear" page himself, to then blame others for making it? Dream Focus 05:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
      • Agree that the IP is running afoul of WP:NPA. No comment on the rest of it. A checkuser is not going to confirm whether or not an IP and a named account are related, as that would be a form of outing. I'm having a hard time judging this whole situation. N419BH 05:57, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
        • In that case, almost every participant in this thread would have to be blocked for "outing". The policy does not support such a spurious result: Merridew does not get to edit via IP, then claim that any linkage of the IP and his account via checkuser violates his privacy. The privilege of concealing one's IP address only applies to editors who take measures to avoid public disclosure, by editing through named accounts only. Chester Markel (talk) 06:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
        • He has openly admitted that it's him several times: this is not an imposter. Doc talk 06:00, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
          • I cannot comment on that. Although any IP can say they're anyone; it's a frequent tactic used by trolls. N419BH 06:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
            • I agree. Let's block the IP now for either being Jack Merridew, and disruptively editing, or impersonating an editor. The remainder of the issue can be sorted out when the accounts are linked via checkuser, great similarity in editing styles, or some other means. Chester Markel (talk) 06:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
              • It is the same person. He admits it. His close friends and non-friends alike know that it's him. The IP is in freaking Bali. Mystery solved. Doc talk 06:11, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
                • I'm fairly certain it's him based on behavior pattern. Just playing devil's advocate for the rest. Nothing is confirmed here, we're still basing everything on speculation. N419BH 06:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
                  • I realized who he was after his 26th edit and told him so. This was inspired by this, BTW. And, as I pointed out on another page, "See also: Lord of teh Flies" on the RfA reform board isn't exactly hiding in plain sight. To claim "outing" after you said that, well... Doc talk 06:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
                    • That one's in the checkuser policies. They won't publicly connect a specific IP to a named account. They might connect a large range, an ISP, or a geographic range. But revealing a specific IP could be used to determine the person's real life identity. N419BH 06:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
                      • This situation does not require CU assistance. Doc talk 07:00, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
                        • But what if it did? Is this the new way to sock Misplaced Pages: edit from an IP, secure in the knowledge that Checkusers will never connect it to a named account, notwithstanding that the IP is already disclosed when one is editing with it? Then such cases might have to be referred to arbcom, and the IP/accounts blocked with "please contact the Arbitration Committee" to avoid publicly associating the sock with the sockmaster. That sort of thing foists an impossible workload upon the arbitrators. If the privacy policy really is so twisted, which I doubt, then it urgently needs to be changed. Chester Markel (talk) 08:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Please see this recent statement from the AUSC. Risker (talk) 12:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

This is a whole lot more complicated than some guy editing from his IP. If you really want to get the full perspective you'd better start looking through all the arbitration proceedings and ANI threads that have affected Jack and his sock drawer over the years. You'll also need to look through the contributions of the IP. For admins, this will be a bit easier as Jack had links to them in his now deleted userpage. There is a ton of information to digest. Some of it is good, some of it is bad. The whole thing makes me believe that this particular thread is missing the boat. There's a whole lot more going on here, both good and bad, that the regular ANI reader doesn't know. This is really one for the Arbitration Committee to handle. N419BH 08:57, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support His recent actions alone are justification for his banning. Dream Focus 05:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
• Ban evasion isn't an issue here, as none of his accounts was banned, and the decision to limit him to one account is not really being violated in spirit, if perhaps it is in letter (per those above). It's his behaviour right now that's the real issue, with his outpouring of profanity directed at others, and this is going to eventually net him a ban if he keeps it up. I'm not in favour of a ban for the time being, since the normal results of this sort of incivility would be a short block, but I'm quite sure he will get banned if he keeps this up. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:47, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Merridew's incivility does not occur on a blank slate. It needs to be considered in the context of the prior history of disruption which required Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Jack Merridew ban review motion to be decided at all. Chester Markel (talk) 05:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

But isn't deceiving the community via dodging scrutiny by using IPs an issue? How can WP:CLEANSTART apply here when we well know who this is? The only other question is, why is this being done? I am not going to pry, but I can see why this is irking quite a few people. –MuZemike 06:17, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

"Scuttled" is listed as the userpage for the accounts. And clean start doesn't appear to be being invoked as the IP claims to be Jack. N419BH 06:31, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

He claims to be Jack only when it suits him: otherwise it's off to the false outing/harassment claims. Who removes a SPI notification with, "rm wp:hounding"? Are editors supposed to know it's him, and not to "hound" him with standard notifications? Or what? Doc talk 08:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

MuZemike, I'd have the same thought except that he's self-identified as Jack Merridew, which means no deception. If he's previously been less than upfront about it, as some here have suggested (I haven't seen the whole history), then yes, that's a definite strike against him. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 10:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Jack's been very open about his past. N419BH 10:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Seeing as the committee is discussing this, is there an urgent need for admin action right now? Let Arbcom earn their inflated salaries. pablo 11:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

  See also

  {{stuck}}: teh ac doesn't usually resolve disputes, it prolongs them. The emergence of the ARS is due to the failure of the two E&C cases. The 2005-ac borked my initial case with white cat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.162.150.88 (talk) 11:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Propose a temporary prohibition on his unregistered editing to go along with the one-account restriction. Should put a dampner on all this is-he-isn't-he disruption. Pick an account and stick to it, and let it be a record of your actions that you may be held accountable by, like the rest of us. Skomorokh 12:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Support community ban explicitly set to terminate if ArbComm determines new conditions under which the individual involved is allowed to edit and the individual complies with all initial conditions set by ArbComm. This more or less resets the situation to where it was before he was previously unbanned by ArbComm, since his own actions to compromise his own account made the previous ruling nonfunctional. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 15:44, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose ban. A little recent history here. Recently David applied to have the last of his Arbcom restrictions lifted Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Jack Merridew ban review motion#Further discussion and was treated rather poorly. Note in particular Coren's remarks. After this he decided to withdraw his services, a la John Galt. He quit using the Jack acct, switched to the Gold Hat account. No one blocked him for doing this. People on the arbitration committee knew that Gold Hat was David; I told Elen so myself. Fast forward a bit, to the discussion on My76Strat's talk page after his failed RFA. David makes a pointy edit that not only is RFA "borked", so is Arbcom. Elen eventually blocks him for repeatedly re-inserting this post. Apparently she thought it was just some random troll. Had she already forgotten who Gold Hat is? This was a bad block because the post was not vanalism or a personal attack. Meanwhile no decision is forthcoming as to whether David is to be permanently tied to the Jack Merridew account. Why on earth would he want to be tied to that account, when there are at least two libellous pages tying the Jack Merridew account to his real life identity elsewhere on the web? I would swear a bit too if that happened to me, trust me on this. But recent threads have proven though that swearing alone is not a blockable offense, much less reason for a ban. --Diannaa 16:48, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Support ban. I don't know Jack very well but I'm well aware of who he is. If he had come to Misplaced Pages with the expressed intent to restart his Misplaced Pages activity in a civil manner, from a new registered account (and only one account) I'd support that. But he's being openly defiant, he doesn't want to abide by the terms set when his previous ban was lifted even in spirit, let alone by the letter. His present behavior does more harm to Misplaced Pages than good. Much of what he's doing right now just boils down to a violation of WP:POINT, specifically where he says, "The Wikimedia Foundation, which oversees all WMF projects including Misplaced Pages, has declared open editing to be a founding principle." While the statement is true, this kind of activism isn't going to help anything. -- Atama頭 16:55, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Support ban He is again, or is it still, thumbing his nose at everyone. He purposefully killed his two accounts and now he is playing games with everyone. This is ridiculous already, enough is enough, CrohnieGal 17:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose As per my usual position about draconian solutions. A "ban" is precisely the wrong sort of way to handle Merridew at best. Collect (talk) 22:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose and immediately overturn block. Read the Arbcom restriction again. Jack is restricted to one named account "Jack Merridew". There is no restriction regarding editing "anonymously" from IPs. He's not socking if he isn't editing from named accounts. Furthermore, Jack has no access to "Jack Merridew" as he scrambled the password to it. All this was done as a result of an Arbcom decision to keep his editing restrictions in place indefinitely. Those restrictions stem from a 2005 arbcom case which was later proven to be messed up. Jack's been fighting his way back ever since. I think in light of these circumstances the fact that the committee hasn't accepted over two years of mostly stellar editing and has kept him restricted would make one just a wee bit upset, no? Civility issues yes, but nothing to warrant an indef. block. And he isn't violating any restrictions by editing from the IP. And we don't block IPs indefinitely. And he's stated that IP is a public wifi hotspot. So he's not the only one who might try to edit from it. Unblock the IP and let arbcom handle it. N419BH 19:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

See below, Arbcom have dealt with it; they unbanned him under an agreement he explicitly broke. IP editing has nothing to do with it – he is community banned. Skomorokh 23:27, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose ban, per Diannaa and Arbcom's general ongoing mishandling/ignoring of this situation  pablo 00:25, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support ban - It seems as if Jack Merridew has decided that rules don't apply to him, that's the subtext not only of this particular set of incidents, but of his long editing career under previous IDs. I understand that some folks think that he is a good, or even excellent, content provider. I cannot gainsay them, since I've never looked into his contributions in that way, but I have no reason to believe that they're not correct. If so, then it's a shame that an editor who is otherwise such a benefit to the project seems to be constitutionally unable to act within the confines of the boundaries that the community has set up for itself, either directly or through their elected representatives. Jack has been given many chances to show that he wants to be a viable part of the community, and his ultimate response has been to thumb his nose at us each time. I don't believe it's any longer worthwhile to continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
• support ban Jack doesn't play well with others. There was an attempted deal that might have maybe had a chance to work. He's stated explicitly that he's not interested in that. This is enough already. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support ban. Enough BS already; I've read the sub-threads below as well. Tijfo098 (talk) 07:49, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose ban - and I agree with User:Diannaa's comments above. One of the terms of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Jack Merridew ban review motion#Indefinite block lifted with editing restrictions was "2. User:Jack Merridew is to seek out advisers to assist him in transitioning from a formal mentorship to unrestricted editing" which he complied with, and over the course of more than a year made thousands of edits that benefited the project. Then when he sought to have his restrictions lifted, he was treated shabbily and it seemed to me that reference to the Gold Hat account was flimsy and opportunistic. If he was, at that point, such a threat to the project, there should have been something stronger to point at than Gold Hat; Gold Hat's contributions were minor and innocuous, but rather than look at the good Jack Merridew had done, Gold Hat was the focus. If Arbcom was aware of the Gold Hat account and did nothing, couldn't that be interpreted as not opposing it? It would have been fairer on Jack if Gold Hat had not been permitted to edit from the start. If I was in his situation I'd feel angry and betrayed, and if that's what he's feeling, that's what's being seen in his recent edits. Rossrs (talk) 08:19, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support ban Jack has wilfully defied what he agreed to with the Arbitration Committee. The restriction is incredibly clear- one account and one account only. No Gold Hat, no IP editing. One account, and the name of that account must be Jack Merridew. Given his knowing disregard of that restriction, there is no other option- if you agree to clear set of unban conditions with the ArbCom, you must either keep them or be rebanned. --Courcelles 08:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

  it is inappropriate to tie me to things such as http://www.pissitupthewall.com/2010/11/wikipedia-lock-your-kids-up.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.162.150.88 (talk) 08:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose ban per N419BH and Diannaa, but implore Jack to stop the outbursts before he digs himself into an even deeper hole. -- œ 08:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support ban Just the past week's pattern of grotesque incivility and personal attacks on other users and even an admin should be enough for a ban. However based on his history of wikihounding other editors with whom he has issues with, massive sockpuppetry, and routine incivility in edit summaries and talk page comments, it's mind-boggling to me that he's getting any support whatsoever. At no point has he been apologetic about past or current actions, and he seems to believe that the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to him. It's time to end this toxicity.Shemeska (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Shemeska (user contributions), I'm curious to know what brings you here. Aside from 2 updates to your user page, your last contribution to Misplaced Pages was this comment at ANI also about Jack Merridew on 7 June 2010, which was your only edit for 2010 outside of your user page. You comment about "fellow travellers (who) defend (Jack) at each step of the way". Quite hypocritical, considering that your next edit, almost a year later is this one in which you join in with "the fellow travellers" who wish to see Jack Merridew banned. You're absent for almost a year and then when Jack's in trouble, not only do you know about it, but you feel compelled to comment upon it, while your interest in Misplaced Pages aside from Jack, appears currently to be zero. Well, I feel compelled to comment on someone who appears to be wanting to just join a lynch mob, but otherwise have no stake in the outcome. ANI should not be about people taking sides and casting votes to make up numbers, and I can't see anything more than that in your participation. I am curious how you knew about this ANI, and why in 2 years of editing, your edits consist of only 4 edits (2 adjustments to your user page, and 2 ANI comments supporting a ban of Jack Merridew.) Why are you so interested in Jack? Rossrs (talk) 00:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose community ban. (@Shemeska: and you seem to believe that there's a special rule about the heinousness of being rude to admins. "Massive" sockpuppetry? Oh, get a grip.) I expect it's too late: a new Peter Damian case (and what a waste was that?) seems to be already taking shape. The "Jack Merridew" case is all about timing: with exceptionally poor timing at the ban review motion, as if expressly chosen to humiliate a proud user, Risker and Coren expressed intolerant resentment of Jack's "defiance", of "thumbing one's nose", and "horsing around with collections of accounts" (yes? so? would you like to look Bishzilla in the eye and repeat that?). I notice Atama and ChronieGal happily adopting these expressions above — altogether, this poll reminds me of the IRC discussions amongst poorly informed users I've listened to, of all the triumphs we can easily and cheaply enjoy against Peter Damian, heh heh. Risker's point that she would have been prepared to lift Jack's remaining restrictions if only it weren't for his "defiance" is downright depressing. What kind of time was the ban review "Jack" had requested to say that? It was too late, as Elen of the Roads pointed out: "Jack" was already expecting the sanctions to be lifted, he had no reason not to expect it. Because those sanctions were vestigial, they seemed to have no other purpose than to humiliate an annoyingly non-humble editor. So is that what the arbcom is about: humiliation? No, I don't think that. I think they do their best. Some of them merely suffered a disastrous failure of imagination in this case. :-( "Jack"'s anger and disappointment at this point is understandable; and, sadly, having been fucked over, he went on to angrily misbehave. He's doing the digging himself, which is why I fear a continued downward spiral, but certainly it was arbcom that handed him a spade and encouraged him to use it. P.S. I would take it as a personal favour if the users who are all over this thread — you know who you are — would rein themselves in a little. Do you really have the impression that your input here is winning hearts and minds by sheer vindictive repetition? Bishonen | talk 14:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC).
• Hold/Pause until this has been clarified. (thanks Sko). I did notice that the language from 125.whatever.whatever.88 got a bit OTT rough around the edges recently, but it seems there's enough confusion here to frustrate just about anyone. It's been a while, but IIRC, "Jack" was/can be quite a valuable content contributor, even though I seem to remember that he could stir up some ka ka from time to time. However, I don't ever recall him stating that he was out to "bring down WP" a la PD.— Ched :  ?  16:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support ban per Courcelles and Shemeska, among others. This is an ugly mess, and I understand the opposers concerns, but from what I have read in this too-long thread, it appears that this editor is abusive and proud of it, not to mention flouting ArbCom. Long history of violations and personal attacks. Let's pull the plug here and now, as I am tired of this kind of user who pushes others away from the project. Not convinced banning an IP is bad either. Jusdafax 20:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support ban per above. Guaranteed in a year, Jack will try to come back yet again to game the system with sympathetic arbcoms willing to give him yet another chance. Jack gets off-wiki blowback because he has a long history of being nasty to editors. Okip 15:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

In violation of unbanning conditions?

The history is a little convoluted, but Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Jack Merridew ban review motion seems to indicate that Jack Merridew's original ban was lifted with this condition:

User:Jack Merridew agrees to edit from one account only "Jack Merridew" on all WMF wikis and unifies that account.

The amendment to this augmented the condition as follows:

User:Jack Merridew agrees to edit from one account only "Jack Merridew" on all WMF wikis with the exception of an additional bot account approved through the regular process, and agrees to not edit using open proxies.

As his February 2011 request for amendment failed, and he subsequently withdrew agreement to the above conditions, it seems to me as if he is editing in violation of the unbanning conditions and therefore banned. Am I missing something? Skomorokh 14:03, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Exactly; that's why I was confused when I started reading this ANI. Why are these motions being tried again here when a ban is already in force? Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:29, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

He posted his password, thereby corrupting the Jack Merridew account. Nobody put a gun to his head. People don't do that by accident - it's your password. By doing that he willfully broke the binding agreement to edit only under the Jack Merridew account on March 25, well before his declaration of withdrawal as an IP. Is the AC agreement binding? Doc talk 15:31, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It was a ArbCom motion which was passed by 9 arbitrators at the time, so yes. An indefinite block would be replaced on the main account, but obviously, that's a bit confusing given it wasn't the main account which prompted this. (Additionally, main account was blocked in March as "compromised account"). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Request for clarification filed on this point. Skomorokh 12:18, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• Since ArbCom couldn't make a consistent or intelligible statement regarding the Gold Hat account (first it was deemed OK then a few weeks later it was a "bad idea"), I have little faith that any "clarification" from them is going to do more than further muddy the waters. Assuming they succeed in putting together something that's not blatantly self-contradictory. Reyk _YO! 23:12, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Indefinite block

I have indefinitely blocked for several reasons - recent disruptive behavior, personal attacks , the likelyhood that he's now violating the prior arbcom findings, the apparent likelyhood that he's going to be community banned in the section above.

Subject to usual community review etc. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Seems like the right call. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:36, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

He has specifically stated that he will no longer be following the restriction. For all we know, he could already have another account up and running, if not more. Furthermore, it is a common fact that we generally block people when they made statements saying that they plan on making disruptive actions in the future and Jack has specifically stated that he has decided not to follow the restriction anymore, thus this, combined with his other recent actions, show that he has become overly disruptive. And an indefinite block is not forever, GWH specifically stated that it is until Arbcom makes a decision or until this community ban proposal is decided. This is to mitigate the disruption that Jack has already been showing. Silverseren 20:03, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

An appropriate block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it's not appropriate. At best it's incompetent. Please read WP:IPBLENGTH. Any administrator worth their salt knows that we only indefinitely block IP addresses in extreme circumstances. Perhaps a block was warranted, but this isn't the way to do it. Even should the community decide the public hot spot IP Jack is using needs to be indefinitely blocked, there are templates that should be placed so it can be tracked because indefinitely blocking IPs is so rare. That didn't happen either. Even rookie admins know better. AniMate 02:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Then can you fix the block so that it's still a block, but in the proper format for IP addresses? That shouldn't be too difficult to do. Silverseren 02:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not the format, it's the length (or lack thereof) that's the problem. We only indefinitely block IPs in extreme circumstances, usually because they're an open proxy. Also, I don't think I should be the admin to deal with this block. I've had too many negative experiences with most of the complainers above and agree with too many of jack's positions. If anything, I'd prefer to give him a warning or block for a month. AniMate 02:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• I have unblocked the IP. Firstly civility blocks don't work and the length is way inappropriate to the offence. Secondly an indef block for a public ip is not an acceptable policy based action, thirdly I am not seeing a clear consensus to ban Jack above so blocking the ip for that reason at this stage is inappropriate. Spartaz 03:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I note that you did not, as required, discuss the unblock with the blocking admin before undoing it, rather unblocked first and then told him that you had done it. Bad form, very bad form. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

George hasn't responded to the comments on his talk so it clearly offline. We shouldn't ready do controversial blocks if we are not here to discuss them afterwards so I didn't feel that leaving a token message or waiting for him to come back was appropriate. Spartaz 03:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

So, in your opinion, no one can ever do a "controversial block" if they aren't planning on being online for the next 12 hours or so?

Further, unblocking on the basis that "Civility blocks don't work" has nothing whatsoever to do with policy, and everything to do with your own personal opinion. You are free to have that opinion, and to avoid making civility blocks because of it, but it's not policy, and it's certainly not a reason to overturn another admin's block, especially without discussing it first. Your action was neither collegial nor appropriate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:57, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Neither was the original block but we can leave a public ip blocked while we sit around waiting for George to come on line shall we? I'd be less inclined to unblock if it was a user account block but for an indef of an ip? No that's perfectly justifiable to act without waiting. Spartaz 04:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm encouraged that you investigated and determined that others beside Jack have been using this IP lately, and so are acting to protect their access to Wikipeia.

You did do that, didn't you? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• Good unblock. Clearly the right thing to do. Reyk _YO! 04:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Is he or is he not in violation of the AC agreement? Has it expired? Is it being ignored by the AC as well as Jack? We all have to follow rules around here, despite what IAR is often misinterpreted to mean. When you're on a restriction you abide by it, you don't play pointy games and make up your own version of the rules. Doc talk 04:02, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

No, I do not agree that he is. Reyk _YO! 04:06, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Can you please elaborate? I know that you've defended Jack in the past (from a quick search I just did), so without any explanation for your current comments, it looks as if you are just repeating over and over that Jack didn't do anything wrong without actually looking at or considering exactly what he has done wrong. Silverseren 04:31, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec)How do you figure? He deliberately corrupted the accounts after his bid for a sock cavalcade fell through. Mind you, he said just two months ago, "These accounts are my history, and I'm not seeking to walk away from them." Then he found out he couldn't have his socks. This horseplop about him being ashamed of what others say about him off-wiki is just ridiculous. His ED page has been up for ages. Doc talk 04:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

He's stated that he's not going to comply with the unban conditions, and he's engaged in extreme uncivility. This shouldn't be that complicated. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:15, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Unblock confusion

I am somewhat confused on the unblock here.

I was online for some hours after issuing the block, contrary to Spartaz' comments. N419BH asked me to consider reversal and I did not respond to him, but that does not mean that I didn't read or consider his comment. N419BH made similar ANI comments before regarding Jack and they had been addressed in the discussion about the ban (and otherwise) above already. Nothing novel was in the unblock request other than that this was "Unblock him" rather than "Don't ban him". Admins are required to be engaged, but we're not required to respond to *everything*...

The unblock was apparently 9 hrs later. No, I wasn't online for 9 hrs after issuing it. Not a reasonable expectation.

The unblock seems to have hinged on three alleged flaws; one, that there was no consensus to ban Jack, two, that this was alledgedly a civility block, and three, that this was a permanent block on an IP. None of these was true.

This was a block for all of:

1. No personal attacks
2. Disruption
3. Violation of editing restrictions

The personal attack was clearly a personal attack - the exact phrase was "Oppose as an unhelpful idiot". This is not a civility issue, it's a personal attack. NPA is NPA.

A very large number of editors and admins have commented that his recent behavior was disruptive.

While there is still active debate about whether he's violating the editing restrictions, there is a majority opinion that he was. I don't know that it rises to the level of consensus, but it clearly has more "He's violating" than the alternative.

Regarding the unblock reasons -

1. There was an 8-2 expressed support-oppose opinion balance at the time of block, with significant additional discussion that by editor count was similiarly 75% plus supporting ban.
2. I used the phrase "personal attack" in the block message . Civility was not mentioned once.
3. This was not a permanent block on an IP. It was an indefinite block, and I quote, "Until the situation is clarified with regards to a community ban, Arbcom decides to do something, or another administrator decides to override based on their review of the situation.". It was indefinite to indicate that it was not a short-term bandaid, not to violate our permanent blocks on IP addresses policy. In cases where IPs are effectively uniquely identified to a known problem user we're allowed to bend the IP block policy in any case, but in this one it was certainly acceptable to leave it "To be determined" while the rest of the above were sorted out. If you feel that it's grossly inappropriate to do so under the IP blocking policy, I ask that you explain how you think we're going to enact a ban if one is consensused-upon above? Do you think we can't ban him if he only uses IPs now?

Spartaz - The best practice here is to try to discuss with the blocking admin, or if that fails to get consensus on a noticeboard that the block was improper. We don't mandate that, but we do ask for admins to use due care and good judgement when acting otherwise. It does not appear to me that you used due care and judgement here.

I appreciate Jack's long constructive history as much as anyone else, but bending the rules to let him keep abusing people when he's clearly started doing so and indicated he has no interest in stopping was not a good call. Had the block actually clearly violated policy you could have gotten a solid consensus on that here within minutes. That the opposite happened should be an indication that this was a bad unblock. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• It was a bad block for a start. You don't indef people while a ban discussion is in place and you should know by now that we don't indef IPs without a very good reason and calling Sarek an idiot is far from a good enough reason for that. Your whole argument presupposes that there is widespread support for a block and there wasn't. Blocking while there is an ongoing discussion is just bad manners and substitutes your opinion for a forming consensus.We already know that you are pretty much the most extreme proponent of the civility block here and that your opinion does not therefore represent a community consensus. You should have proposed the block before enacting it and then listening to consensus on it. There was no justification for acting unilaterally when there was already a discussion in place. I don't see a consensus to ban and 70-80% including a number of very involved editors is far from a consensus for a community ban. Spartaz 07:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

There's no way to avoid "very involved editors" - the closing admin is supposed to factor in prior entanglements, but that does not mean or equate to disenfranchising those with prior negative interactions with the potential banee.

Blocking while a community discussion is in place is like blocking while an arbcom case is in discussion - unusual, but not unheard of. Both happen. I have done both, without any being challenged that I can recall. Being the subject of an arbcom case or a community ban discussion is in no way a get out of jail free card that allows people to disrupt or make personal attacks or violate existing sanctions or other policy. We are obviously and carefully conscious of not keeping people from participating in discussions on their own fate, but that doesn't mean they can do anything they want and get away with it.

I do not understand how you can look at the discussion above and feel that I am adopting a particularly extreme position with regards to Jack here. There's clearly a consensus that Jack's being abusive and has violated policy in several ways. Whether that results in a ban or not is up to the community, who are still arguing over it. Many of those advocating not banning have advocated blocking for the recent events.

Again - You're making up straw man arguments that you allege are why I blocked, which are not what I blocked for, and not what I said I blocked for. You seem to be the only person disputing that the stated arguments are valid. A number of persons disagree with banning him for them, but you seem to be saying "No, they don't count at all", which does not seem at all reasonable.

I'm all for having uninvolved admins review and use their judgement, but there's something wrong here. I am not going to do any wheel-warring of any sort. Would you please disqualify yourself as well from any further action and step back, and let others handle this? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:44, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Are we indefinitely blocking IPs now?

This is an astonishing bit of overkill. We don't block IPs indefinitely, especially when they've stated they're editing from a public hot spot. AniMate 01:11, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, apparently we do. Not open editing's finest hour. pablo 01:15, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

A one year block on the IP would probably be sufficient. Chester Markel (talk) 01:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Some IPs are static enough in that they could be indefinitely blocked. Other reasons may be that the owner requests as such. Finally, we have some open proxies which must be indefinitely blocked. Please see Category:Indefinitely blocked IP addresses and Category:Open proxies blocked on Misplaced Pages for details. That is not to say that the indefinite IP block was appropriate, but I just want to point out that some IPs are indefinitely blocked and why. –MuZemike 08:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, I'd point out that most of the tens of thousands of IPs in CAT:OP are no longer open proxies and should be unblocked. Indefinite blocks for IP addresses are only OK when they are kept under review. It is often too easy for the blocks to remain unreviewed. A fixed expiry, even if it's years ahead, prevents this kind of oversight. -- zzuuzz 08:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Note about this IP

I have asked a steward to check IP 125.162.150.88, and he has verified that it is an open proxy with three ports open. It is also on several blacklists. Given the discussion in this section, I will not automatically reblock this IP but will await some other thoughts; however, on this project we normally block open proxies for a year. If there are no specific, policy-based objections to my doing so in the next 3 hours, I will block it at the end of that time per our usual process for blocking open proxies. Risker (talk) 04:33, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't "and agrees to not edit using open proxies" part of the unban agreement as well? What does that mean? Doc talk 04:45, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that at all. However, the IP was already blocked once today, and then unblocked. It would be poor form for an arbitrator to wheel-war; hence the advance notice with the detailed reason why I intend to reblock this IP address. This is an IP that would normally be blocked by any administrator who identified that it was an open proxy, whether or not a troubled editor was using it. Risker (talk) 04:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Quite frankly, it's time to shut this door, and shut it tight. There is a clear restriction on the books that this individual can only edit using the "Jack Merridew" account. No exceptions. It's time to block this IP, and actually enforce the ArbCom's ruling. Courcelles 04:52, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Please. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree there is no problem blocking an open proxy. If this doesn't wind up being the final answer, I note that Arbcom provided a sanction provision in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Jack Merridew ban review motion: "Should Jack Merridew violate the restrictions imposed upon him in this decision, he may be blocked for one year by any uninvolved administrator, with any blocks to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Jack Merridew ban review motion#Log of blocks and bans". This would allow the matter to be raised at WP:Arbitration enforcement for a full discussion. If a block was issued, it would be a {{uw-aeblock}}, which would in theory give it more finality than a regular ANI block. If even this prospect is too divisive, the matter could be handed to Arbcom for them to consider a motion. EdJohnston (talk) 05:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

the year-block clause was lifted by the 2009 motion further down (when I was commended for a clear return, yet still saddled with a few restrictions). The ac need to pass a motion; they've been stuck on this since January. 125.162.150.88 (talk) 06:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, you mean the section which says:

After reviewing User:Jack Merridew's ban at his request, the Arbitration Committee agreed to unblock his account on December 9th, 2008 with the above conditions.

Jack Merridew is to be commended for making a clean return from an indefinite ban. On review of the past year, the Arbitration Committee replaces the previous motion with the following conditions:

1. User:Jack Merridew agrees to edit from one account only "Jack Merridew" on all WMF wikis with the exception of an additional bot account approved through the regular process, and agrees to not edit using open proxies.

2. User:Jack Merridew is to seek out advisers to assist him in transitioning from a formal mentorship to unrestricted editing.

3. User:Jack Merridew agrees that the same as any other editor, he is to follow Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines, and follow dispute resolution processes to resolve editing conflicts with the understanding that misconduct could result in blocks or Community editing restrictions.

4. User:Jack Merridew will note his agreement with the terms of this motion on this page.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

...So are all publicly accessible networks open proxies now? If they are we'd better start blocking every single school, university, company, and private unsecured WiFi network in existence. We'll also have to block every cell phone network. Get busy. N419BH 05:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

This IP is a public hotspot offered by a restaurant to patrons. A few people even know the restaurant. The IP is the Indonesian national phone company's, one of their 'Speedy' (DSL) connections. Such connections are the norm here and the Jack account edited for years on the prior IP that was serving this restaurant (which was 125.162.164.51). I also informed John Vandenberg that I was on this IP a month ago ;) 125.162.150.88 (talk) 05:41, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I interpret Risker's comment as stating that the open proxy determination was based on a port scan, not local accessibility through a wireless network. If this is the case, then the IP can be used by anyone on the internet, from any location. It's not our fault that the computer isn't properly secured. Chester Markel (talk) 06:29, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Well if this is true, and Jack's comment that such connections are "the norm" in Indonesia, then are you saying we'll have to block the entire country from editing? N419BH 06:33, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

By "the norm", he seemed to mean wireless connections with local public access, not actual open proxies. Chester Markel (talk) 06:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to remind people that scanning IP addresses, and finding open or closed ports, can never confirm whether an IP is an open proxy. So many bad proxy blocks are based on finding open ports. Blacklists are even less trustworthy. If this is an open proxy, someone else should be able to prove it by using it. I think that's quite unlikely. -- zzuuzz 07:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The steward has given a wrong assessment of this IP. How about he creates an account, and it is block for a week for the various incivilities, and then he come back and resumes where he left off, given he loves us so much and couldnt quit ;-) John Vandenberg 06:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

And how exactly do you know that the steward is wrong about the IP address being an open proxy? Silverseren 07:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

doubleplus-clue. 125.162.150.88 (talk) 07:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Stewards are often wrong about open proxies :p There is no evidence that this is an open proxy. Please ask the steward to use it for editing, in order to be convincing. -- zzuuzz 07:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Nobody has provided a shred of evidence to support the theory that it is an open proxy, and Occam told me it wasn't. Based on purely technical information, that IP is extremely unlikely to an open proxy, and the steward should be trouted. Additional information which can be obtained very easily corroborates the story given by Jack. Of course it could be an elaborate trick, .. John Vandenberg 07:25, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Definitely isn't an open proxy. I've used a tool which tests the IP checking if it is a proxy or just an IP, the results showed that it is in fact just an IP. Bidgee (talk) 14:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

No tool can be definite about that. You might get a good hit rate, but it can't be definite. -- zzuuzz 16:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• I read the the statement from an arb that this was a proxy and blocked it per policy so I'm slightly embarrassed to finish reading the section to see its proxy statement is in doubt so I unblocked it again.. Just to be clear as the unblocking admin I have no problems with an open proxy being blocked - if that is the consensus of what we are dealing with. I'm hardly covering myself in glory today so I'm going to bow out and take my kids shopping for the rest of the day. Spartaz 07:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah Spartaz. Good decision to take some time with your family. Perhaps not moving ahead on something that is still under discussion might be a good idea in the future.

As for me, I noted that I was intending to make a policy-based open proxy block, but further evidence has persuaded me that there is not universal agreement in interpreting the data I'd been provided; John Vandenberg, who is also an experienced checkuser, has more familiarity with open proxies than do I and I will defer to him. (This is the kind of policy-based reason not to block that justified my not immediately blocking.) This discussion can resume on the topic of whether or not the community has found Jack's/the IP's behaviour disruptive to the point that it feels he should be removed from the project. Risker (talk) 07:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

fwiw, I've glossed over this IPs contribs and believe I've made every one of the edits so far this year. The ones in 2009 are not me (some vandal at a nice restaurant, or the IP was assigned elsewhere then... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.162.150.88 (talk) 07:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

As this is a bit of a train wreck

Anyone got an executive summary of the situation? My understanding of the above is:

1. user:Jack Merridew is participating from 125.162.150.88.
2. Under the terms of the original ArbCom unban, he was limited to editing only under user:Jack Merridew.
3. On 25 April, he withdrew from that agreement with this edit. The purpose would seem to be to be able to adopt a new pseudonym which didn't carry the baggage (i.e. years of being used an a boogieman) of the JM account.

Furthermore, there's another tangent regarding the nature of the IP:

1. 125.162.150.88 is apparently an unsecured public wifi hotspot.
2. It has been argued that this constitutes the use of an open proxy.
3. That would violate the unban agreement even if it were accepted that JM were free to start a new pseudonymous account.

I consider this one to be a red herring given the above facts.

Is there more to it than this?

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 08:44, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Jack cannot edit from "Jack Merridew" as the account is scrambled and compromised. There is also a question as to whether or not the restriction limits him to "one named account" or "one, named account" (the former would restrict Jack to "Jack Merridew" but possibly allow IP editing subject to compliance with the sockpuppetry policy, the latter would presumably not allow ip editing; the wording of the restriction uses the former). The "Open Proxy" question is a red herring in my opinion. Arbcom is apparently also discussing the present situation privately as noted from a couple postings by at least one of them on their talk pages. Think that's most of it...agree it's a bit of a train wreck. N419BH 08:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how it's totally lost on many that he was just asking for all his accounts to be unblocked. Is that "shame" of being Jack Merridew? His last post seems to indicate that we must let him edit anonymously in order to protect him from off-wiki attacks. Am I reading this right? Doc talk 08:56, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget to add his actions over the past few days, which are also a part of the report. This includes edit warring and going over the 3RR limit (twice, I believe, or once and then going right back to exactly 3RR after his 24 hours block ended), not to mention the massive amounts of incivility and the recent personal attack made against SoV. Silverseren 10:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Chris, I think there's disagreement over your initial point 2 above; some read the condition as "he may only edit using the account Jack Merridew" and others as "the only account he may edit under is Jack Merridew". Jack seems to have adopted the loophole in the second reading in editing as an IP. Skomorokh 12:21, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the edit warring, the user formerly known as Jack repeatedly removed this post, part of which constitutes a personal attack. I removed it twice myself on that basis. I am unclear why people would edit war to keep such a post on the page when the post is offensive and derogatory (IMHO). I would like to remind people that the same folks posting here over and over again does not constitute consensus. Skomorokh has posted eight times to this discussion, Silver Seren eleven times to last week's discussion and nine times to this one, and Doc9871 has posted twelve times to the discussion. It is hardly surprising that the IP feels like he is being railroaded. Sincerely, --Diannaa 13:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me? I have no horse in this race. Explain yourself please. Skomorokh 13:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing to explain, really. I was just counting the posts. I agree you and the IP do not seem to have any prior history. --Diannaa 13:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I apologise for listing you. --Diannaa 14:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I notice you've counted a few editors who have over-contributed, but I think there's also a problem with an editor who magically appears to rip into Jack. User:Shemeska has only made 4 edits in the last 2 years (2 to his user page, and 2 supporting a ban for Jack Merridew). I've commented here, above. Rossrs (talk) 00:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

So, would you people agree if someone were to help the guy post his edits (proxy editing)? After all, he considers the whole thing toxic, and so he should not be concerned about following toxic rules. Scuttled user (talk) 15:09, 7 May 2011 (UTC)Unrelated trolling struck. TNXMan 16:32, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Digging and digging... -- œ 17:32, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the person whose comment I struck wasn't Jack Merridew - it was an unrelated troll. TNXMan 17:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• that one's not me, either. but I sure do bring all the trolls out of the woodwork. that's the whole pattern, here. 125.162.150.88 (talk) 02:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The counting isn't really necessary, I've posted more times than those individuals have to this discussion. The bottom line is this stems from ArbCom things and Jack's interpretation of ArbCom things, and it further stems from someone storming off in a fury after being "damned" (in his words) by ArbCom for "technical breaches" (in ArbCom's words) of old restrictions, restrictions which he had every reason to believe would be lifted, and restrictions which he had technically violated with no hammer coming down from ArbCom, again reinforcing his belief that the restrictions would be lifted. With that said, was he violating our rules on civility and edit warring while contributing from this IP? Yes. Should he have been blocked for it? Yes. Is he doing these things right now? I'd argue no. I've seen and personally experienced far worse with no blocks given, let alone a full community ban. Remember that blocks are preventative, not punitive, and must serve to prevent damage to the encyclopedia. The question that must be asked is, should Jack be allowed to create an account and edit again, would he be a net positive to the project? I think for those who have seen his old talk page and looked through his contributions as "Jack Merridew", the answer to that question is obvious. N419BH 19:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Shemeska's vitriol is from my having battled grawp re the thousands of NN D&D articles in late 2007. teh wiki-wariors never forget anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.162.150.88 (talk) 02:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Enough

As a completely uninvolved admin, having read the preceding discussion, I find something resembling a Tortured Consensus (TM) that the user in question ("David", apparently), be required to register a new account, and to edit exclusively with that account (this meets the spirit of the Arbcom requirements, given the scuttling of the Jack Merridew account they specified). The account name should be declared here (or at least to Arbcom, if the user strenuously objects to what would be helpful transparency). If the user rejects this, they have effectively banned themselves, and should be blocked from editing as an IP. Over to you, David. Rd232 23:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

G'day mates, all right, here's the new account, from a secure pool of IP addresses, and not an unsecure hotspot at a restaurant. Now it's time for you haters to find a different hobby. Sinceasked0 (talk) 00:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC) impersonator, blocked. Rd232 02:12, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Great, thank you. Hopefully this marks a "turning a new leaf" point where all concerned allow bygones to be bygones, and a new spirit of friendly collaboration in the pursuit of developing a great encyclopedia can flower. Rd232 01:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully all the restrictions will be archived. Improving articles in peace is a better job than having to fight over drama here and facing constant hassling from certain toxic personalities, mate. Sinceasked0 (talk) 01:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC) impersonator, blocked. Rd232 02:12, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Sinceasked0 (talk · contribs) is not mine. some impersonator. Rd232, this is not a matter for the community. still have to read what's gone on in the last 18 or so hours... Barong 01:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

(and I've disclosed this that *is* me). Barong 02:00, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Sinceasked0 is not me; Barong is. cf Barong (mythology). 125.162.150.88 (talk) 02:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

OK; I thought it seemed off but not enough to publicly doubt it. I extend the sentiments to you that, er, I thought I already had (above) :) Rd232 02:12, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I already read that. Should the impersonator account be blocked? I cannot do it, I am too involved. --Diannaa 02:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

 Done Thank you, Rd232. -Diannaa 02:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, I presume the impersonator is someone already permabanned... but if possibly not, such behaviour nearly merits it on its own. Rd232 02:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

dunno, don't care, really. there's an old thread somewhere (email) about my role as 'flypaper'. I am irresistible to a lot of problematic editors. someone commented above about how many are involved. easily 80% of the detractors have a long history with me. Shemeska's a fine example. off-wiki there must be a lot of noise recruiting my old enemies for this. there are a few up there that I take seriously, and I'll have to work to mend those bridges. but for the most part, this whole thread is simply a typical insipid toxic trainwreck; it's what's wrong with this project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.162.150.88 (talk) 02:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It was the same troll I blocked, above. If more impersonators pop up, please let me or another checkuser know - they're all probably the same troll. TNXMan 13:58, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

cockfight

• User:Jack Merridew/Editnotice

The owner of the place I'm staying has 4 cocks entered into a cockfight up in Taman and it starts in just a few minutes. I took pictures of them just before he set out, too. Anyway, the above editnotice contains a story about the Balinese love of their cocks, and I would like it undeleted. Terima kasih. 125.162.150.88 (talk) 02:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can't see why not, so I've done it. Rd232 03:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

thanks; User:Jack Merridew/Note switch 2, too (and it may pull in something...) I'll end up asking for it all to be undeleted. Barong 03:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Make a list when you have a minute. On your talk page --Diannaa 04:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I may just wait until I've done the RfC-style RfA ;) Barong 04:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Legal threat

A new user account has raised a copyright issue on a couple of photos I've uploaded. See I.e., "Publishers from whom you'll probably hear from soon here, as they've decided to take matters into their own hands including legal options. Believe me, publishers do know how the law works." I've advised this person of WP:LEGAL to no effect.("If law were as simple as reading a brief documentation such as "WP.LEGAL", we wouldn't need attorneys to handle legal affairs.") Also he's published on my user page the text of a supposed letter from a publisher, replete with phone numbers, which I'm not sure what to do with. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide links to the images? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

See and , both on Commons. I've nominated the first for deletion as a question was raised as to whether it was published prior to 1923. However, the second one is an 1898 postcard, and therefore was definitely published (as a postcard) in 1898. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) With respect to the letter from the publisher, I would recommend that you do nothing with it. In such a case I'd simply point out Commons:Commons:Contact us. If the publisher wants to assert copyright, they can contact the Wikimedia Foundation. Meanwhile, the image (File:Doyers Street - postcard - 1898.jpg) is hosted on Commons; removing the image from the article here is pointless; it is still in publication. If he continues to make legal threats (whether he asserts that these actions are his or some vague other party) to support his removal of the content, we will have no choice but to follow WP:NLT. You've already nominated the other one for deletion as reasonable concerns were raised. --Moonriddengirl 22:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. You know, it's ironic as this involves the same issue (publication of pre-1923 images) that arose in a PUF discussion recently that I contributed to, as you know. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Hold on just a minute here - the source of one of these images is a link to a Google Books page. The other appears to come from a web page wherein the image has the a credit "courtesy of www.arcadiapublishing.com, from 'Manhattan's Chinatown' (2008)". These are not scans of a postcard or photo that were uploaded to Commons, these are images that came from a copyrighted work. I do not think it is up to Misplaced Pages or Commons editors and admins to play lawyer and decide that they are not under copyright protection. Is this type of thing common? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Common sense decides in this place. A public domain image doesn't become magically protected by copyright because someone claims it is anymore than I can decide to claim copyright over King Lear just because I've printed a copy of it.

    I don't think there's any doubt that I'm a staunch defender of copyrights on-wiki — when they aren't plainly fraudulent claims. — Coren  14:26, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

    • There is still a potential legal issue, while I think it is unlikely, could the publisher claim the image is adjusted/touched up to such an extent that is qualifies as a derivative work and is thus subject to copyright? I really don't know how far you need to change it, but I do know that if you go far enough you can have a copyright even if the source material is public domain. Monty₈₄₅ 07:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
      • That's possible. If so, it can be dealt with if the publisher so contends. I've advised the user on how to contact Commons, as suggested. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:01, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Doctor Who images

I'm bringing this here because I'm not sure where else to take it, and because some uninvolved admin intervention may be necessary, either to enforce the NFCC, or to prevent process gaming or edit waring.

The article is The Impossible Astronaut‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). There have been repeated attempts to put an image in the infobox. On each occasion, so far, the uploaded image has been discussed and after the appropriate time deleted or removed as not meeting the NFCC. People then hunt for another image to decorate the box, offer some weak justification, and insist that the image remains until the debate is concluded. Rinse and repeat. The result is we pretty constantly have violating images on the article until the latest debate concludes. In such cases, should the onus not be on the uploader to make the case and a challenged image remain off until/unless there's a consensus it meets the criteria? Or better, people shouldn't decide they want a decoration and then keep trying their luck with the NFCC until they get one past it.

Images in question so far have been:

• Current image File:Doctor Who The Impossible Astronaut.jpg currently on FFD here.
• File:The Silent.tif (currently legitimately used on another article), edit warred on this article until its failing NFCC finally established (see the history of the file to see the edit warring over its NFCC justification for this article). See the discussion leading to removal
• File:Doctor Who Impossible Astronaut.jpg deleted for illegitimate NFCC justification.

Anyway, I removed the most recent image, only to have it replaced. So, I'm going to bow out and leave this to others. The basic problem is non-free content being driven by a desire to fill and infobox and then people seek for a content justification, rather than the other way about.--Scott Mac 13:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. The NFCC rationale used for this image pretty clearly doesn't fly (or shouldn't). However, there seems to be a pretty clear consensus-in-practice that a single screenshot from a TV episodes can be used to illustrate the episode articles, providing identifying information. Particularly for long-running shows, the screenshot can provide important contextual information, especially since most TV watchers don't really keep track of the titles of episodes they've seen -- indeed, at least for many US TV series, the titles aren't even used in the broadcasts. Visual cues can be helpful in a way that textual descriptions often aren't (we all know that proverb). There are hundreds of Doctor Who episode screenshots alone, and roughly 20,000 overall (although a significant share of those illustrate character articles). Rather than picking them off piecemeal, based on the poorly written rationales rather than potential encyclopedic function, we should have a centralized discussion on the underlying issues and make our treatment of such images consistent. (The NFCC issue is independent of the case-by-case decision on how well-chosen a particular image may be; some seem rather randomly selected.) Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
  • At WP:FAC these kinds of images with weak justifications usually haven't survived, whether or not its a single identifying image for the show or not. Part of the reason that doesn't really work is that there isn't really a single image that represents a television episode in most cases (as opposed to a film poster, album art, etc.) It still has to meet WP:NFCC even if it's in the infobox. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 17:52, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
  • As NFCC forms our Exemption Doctrine Policy for the foundation's resolution, a consensus that we ignore them to pretty up TV shows doesn't work, we apply the NFCC regardless. --82.7.44.178 (talk) 18:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    • I don't disagree, in principle, with either of you. But I think that community practice, over tens of thousands of articles, has created a working consensus that single identifying screenshots in episode articles satisfy the requirements of NFCC #8 in the same way that book or album covers do for the corresponding articles. I believe that, rather than having this kind of discussion in the context of scattered images that seem to be not terribly good at identifying the subject, we should have a more centralized discussion on the general principle rather than nibbling at the edges. (I personally believe we ought to revisit NFCC#8 and much more specifically outline the conditions when identifying images can be used. We are now in the anomalous situation where article form has more influence over NFCC use than it should: for example, allow single screenshots to be used in articles on individual TV characters, for identifying purposes -- but if the articles are merged into a single "characters of the X tv series," the exactly coextensive use of the same nonfree content is no longer permitted. But that's a discussion for a different day, perhaps.)
    • In short, we need to conform the existing practice, which is reasonable under the Foundation resolution, with the NFCC requirements, which some editors reasonably interpret as contrary to current practice. With two reasonable, but incompatible, interpretations, we should seek a more general, well-focused discussion. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
      • "single identifying screenshots in episode articles satisfy the requirements of NFCC #8" NO, NO,100x no. This is not policy, not consensus, and not compatible with the NFCC.--Scott Mac 20:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
        • There is indeed a very clear policy consensus against this indiscriminate use of such images that has been shaped and confirmed across dozens if not hundreds of deletion debates. We have at least a couple of them every week, and the large majority of them end in deletion. We also have a very wide-spread myth among article authors that there is such a blanket allowance. I doubt there has ever been an informed consensus discussion leading to this idea. The reason for its existence is simply that at some time many years ago, at a time when NFC enforcement was given less attention, somebody made the fatal decision of including an "image=" parameter in the relevant infobox templates, and the results of that person's one-off whim are still haunting us today. I've often been tempted to just go and deactivate that field in the template, which would orphan a couple thousand bad non-free images at one fell swoop. The only reason I've refrained from doing so is for the sake of the ten righteous ones among the thousand bad ones. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
          • There is indeed a very clear policy consensus against this indiscriminate use of such images that has been shaped and confirmed across dozens if not hundreds of deletion debates. . . . We also have a very wide-spread myth among article authors that there is such a blanket allowance. And that's why we need a centralized discussion. There are thousands upon thousands of such uses, and they're being added faster than they can be deleted. If "policy is what we do," as Jimbo once said, than I can't really see how (what I call) the consensus-in-practice among the editors who write the articles is less valid and the opposite consensus-in-practice among the editors who take part in deletion discussions is more valid. The whole "identifying use" NFCC justification has sprung up from editorial practice; it would be hard to develop it from the policy page text alone. Unless you're intent on playing whack-a-mole forever (or at least willing to), a centralized discussion on the underlying principles is the better way to go.Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
            • Just one aside: I'm now struck by the thought that, in all the years of playing whack-a-mole about this (and you are right, it really has been something like that), your argument about "identifying use" above is the first time I've ever seen something like a coherently argued position in defense of this practice. Even if policy is "what we do", I find it hard to call something a policy consensus if its proponents have for years failed to think up something even approaching a coherent, articulated justification for it. All they ever said in so many words in debate upon debate was "so many other articles are doing it, so why can't we here?" Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
              • If we want to argue policy is what we do, then please formalise that policy that it's automatic an image, any image from a show can be used in the article and we'll be in breach of the foundation resolution. The fact that we've been slack in enforcing our existing policy and meeting the foundation requirements shouldn't be an excuse to continue that slackness. We've also had/got tons of textual copyvios and tons more being added all the time, should we just allow that as "policy since it's common practice" too? --82.7.44.178 (talk) 22:31, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
                • I've started a discussion on WT:NFC#Television episode screenshots to try to clarify the existing language that would suggest that episodes don't normally get screenshots unless the scenes are discussed. Input for the larger policy issue should go there. --MASEM (t) 23:49, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I will only say this (without getting sucked in the underlaying NFC debate): While an image is under discussion, it is customary to leave the image in place for the duration of that discussion. It is the only way in which participants can judge the image in question in the scope in which it is used. Removing an image from an article while under discussion is not helpfulf and is often seen as a disruption of that discussion (I know I do). It is the reason why FfD exists; with arbitrary removal we would not need FfD to begin with. — Edokter (talk) — 20:49, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment: from Hullabaloo's remarks about practice, and others' about that practice violating NFCC, it sounds like we have a more widespread problem. This should probably be addressed via amending policy, or possibly an RFC on the general issue which can inform general practice. Rd232 01:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Whitewriter continued hounding

Hello, I have been the subject of repeated wiki hounding from mr whitewriter for months. His recent attempt to have relevant material that I have been working on deleted from my userspace is an example of this : http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Skier_Dude#Hi_dude.21_:.29 I request only to be left in peace to continue my work and as I have stated before, my enjoyment of working on wikipedia has been repeatedly disturbed by mr white writer. I have seen a pattern of aggression from him against anyone on wikipedia who is seen as supporting kosovo, and I wish only to be able to add in neutral and verified factual data about the geography and history of kosovo. My collection of placed of cultural interest that he would like to have deleted are sources for my work and I have been able to process some of these, including posting pictures and we even were able to collaborate on some articles such as Hermitage_of_St._Peter_Koriški. I only ask for some protection from these repeated attempts on deletion of my notes and works. thanks, mike James Michael DuPont (talk) 14:15, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

He has worked hard to have my work deleted before

• User_talk:Mdupont#Your_contributed_article.2C_List_of_populated_places_in_the_municipality_of_Draga.C5.A1.2C_Kosovo

and

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Prizren#Not_all_Viewpoints_Third_opinion where he had removed a large block of referenced material and still has not restored it.

Here are some examples of him causes disputes over issues if people belong to one ethnic group or another, his actions seem to be motivated along these lines.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Petar_II_Petrovi%C4%87-Njego%C5%A1&diff=prev&oldid=423530887
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Emir_Kusturica&diff=prev&oldid=425875874

James Michael DuPont (talk) 14:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The last two diffs don't add anything. WhiteWriter was not a problematic editor in those discussions. As for him having "worked hard to have my work deleted", I can see why it may feel like that to DuPont, but it isn't the case. The List of Populated Places was a duplicate. The Prizen point was given a third opinion. The huge number of subpages is a minor policy issue. I didn't undertstand from his post that WhiteWriter was proposing to delete the lot.Fainites scribs 01:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

OMG, this is interesting... User:Mdupont showed us several time that he dont know or respect several wikipedia guidelines, (WP:SPA obsession) and when i or any other editor ask for guideline respect, then we are problem, i suppose. Users knowledge of NPOV, LAY and several other guidelines is quite limited. Anyway, any uninvolved editor can see some of the users usual articles quality, or wast list of partial WEBHOST sub-pages, and you will see for your self. That is miles below wikipedia quality level. At the end, i just tried to help and fix, following main and essential Wiki guidelines...

But i will not tolerate his definitely purpose disrespect and misspelling of my user name, as white water, and white write, even after i warned him explicitly on that. In this previous link you will see one of my numerous attempt's to talk to him, and help him to edit wikipedia in a good way. And when i look a bit better, we didn't have any connection points for months, so we may see that wiki-stalking was on his side now, and not mine. If we exclude off wiki invite by someone else, for some reverts, of course. Unfortunately, i would ask some protection from this user, as i was only trying to do good, as best as i know and possibly can, while his only compromise or cooperation responds are false bad faith reports like this one. --WhiteWriter 12:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Please look at Danstar123

I'd like for an administrator to look at the work of Danstar123. Edits like this are very dangerous, and it looks like nobody noticed this for many days. Inigopatinkin (talk) 15:18, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not certain you can characterise that as 'dangerous'. It looks like good faith to me. Of course it violates BLP etc but given it's been made to the page of a cult leader I suspect it is in fact correct. Egg Centric 15:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Appears to be good faith edit, although as Egg pointed out, there's a BLP problem. I glanced at the Contribution history and everything else looks constructive. Suggest a polite note on Danstar123's User Talk page regarding the BLP problem, and maybe something about WP:V to go with it. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 16:57, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Has anybody notified the user of this posting? 216.93.212.245 (talk) 04:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I have just made the required notification. Inigopatinkin, in the future, please remember that when you open an ANI discussion on an editor you must notify them of the discussion. Monty₈₄₅ 04:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

User:UtherSRG refusing to get the point

UtherSRG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an administrator here on en-wiki whose primary role (according to his logs, anyway) is tagging and deleting problematic new pages. This is not a problem; it is an area where more help would always be appreciated. The problem is that in many cases these pages are not problematic, and he has repeatedly refused to get the point.

Uther's deletions are persistently incorrect, either applying policy in a self-admittedly overly stringent fashion, or more often, crossing the line between "stringent" and "extending the rules to the point of absurdity". He deleted Jason Dormon as A7 when it appeared like so, claiming there was no evidence of significance. Ignacio Valenti Lacroix was deleted as a recreation of an article previously deleted following discussion, when in actual fact the only action undertaken on the page was his prior CSD of it. Ryeland Allison was similarly CSDd as A7, when it is beyond comprehension as to how it could fulfil the CSD criteria. Glyn Lewis was noted as a widely-published psychiatry professor who leads a department, but this is apparently no evidence of significance. Neither is the release of two albums on Universal Music, while this apparently lacks enough context to be a valid article. D S Malik's six books and 45 academic papers contain no semblance of significance, which I'm sure he'd be appalled to hear.

Occasional mistakes are fine. Occasional mistakes are to be expected. But these are not occasional mistakes - these are all from within the last 2-3 days, and he has been told about the issues. multiple users and admins, including a WMF staffer, have warned him about his attitude. His response has been most unhelpful, and are normally terse, contextless replies which give no indication that he's even accepted there's a problem, much less changed his tone as a result. This is not something new - my attention was initially drawn to him when I saw some of the helpful comments he was providing new users with. Unsure as to why their articles had been (sometimes wrongfully) deleted, they were told, for example, that he was uninterested in discussing the deletion.

Quite frankly, this has gone long enough - Uther's record over the last few days alone shows that he either doesn't understand policy or has an understanding of it so warped from the norm as to be the subject of a Twilight Zone episode. Despite multiple users and administrators telling him there's a problem, he has neither held off on acting so as to avoid screwups, or improved his behaviour and application of policy. A wall of decline notices, and he doesn't think it's worth reconsidering. I would like some general commentary on whether or not his behaviour is indeed problematic and, if so, a resolution that UtherSRG be either:

1. topic-banned from deletion work until he gets a better grasp of what is required, or;
2. initially or if he fails to follow the ban, the subject of forcible tool-removal (a far less torturous procedure than it might sound).

I'd love to resolve it with talking and asking him nicely, but asking him nicely hasn't worked; it's now time to, as I told him when I asked him to improve, move it up the food chain. Ironholds (talk) 19:15, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

RfC is the usual next step for getting more and uninvolved others' input and highlighting to the editor in question the serious nature of the problem (i.e., can lead to ArbCom yanking his admin bit, per Misplaced Pages:Admin#Requests for comment on administrator conduct). DMacks (talk) 19:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

These deletions and nominations appear to be very far out of process, and a response to a query that "I am uninterested in having discussions about CSD'd items" is outrageous for any admin. Unless he reforms his behaviour, desysopping would seem the only option. Fences&Windows 20:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

And that wasn't the first time he gave such a response: "I'm not interested in debating or discussing." And yet "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." (WP:ADMINACCT). Fences&Windows 20:12, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• After posting this thread, a user drew my attention to the DRV here - out of process actions ignoring those who complain is apparently a long-term thing for this user. Ironholds (talk) 20:29, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

  For the sake of clarity, the DRV being referred to is "Malamanteau". —Tom Morris (talk) 20:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

  See also Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2010 April 18#Redirects in Chinese. UtherSRG told Mathpianist93 (talk · contribs): "Denied, and yes, exactly. English-language wiki article titles should be in Roman characters. I'm not going to discuss this." Cunard (talk) 09:46, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

OTRS permission check needed

Could any OTRS person perhaps do me a favour and check this ticket for me. It was added to a number of images, but not by an OTRS person but by the uploader himself, and that uploader has a massive prior history of copyvios. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:02, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

That ticket is a permission to use a specific photograph of Jessica Stam, and nothing else. If it's being used elsewhere, it's a lie. — Coren  21:15, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I expected. Indef-blocking the offender. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Light current

Light current (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

LC was banned over 4 years ago. He continues to sock relentlessly to this day. On the ref desk talk page, we have editors arguing that if his ref desk edits happen to be "answerable", then they should stand, invoking IAR, claiming it overrides a ban. I say a ban overrides IAR. What say y'all? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:41, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• Ignore All Rules is "when it's in the best interests of the wiki, ignore the rule" not "do it just for the hell of it". Pretty sure that a sockmaster socks because he wants the attention and is tired of being left on the outside. I don't think indulging him and allowing community participation constitutes the best interests of the wiki unless you're a Conservapedia mole. Ironholds (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't have a strong opinion on the issue, but this is not being suggested "just for the hell of it". See a thread here: Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Proposed_compromise, where a rationale is outlined. Staecker (talk) 23:28, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    • He's banned; He cannot edit, if he does edit those edits must be removed on sight, and if he creates socks to edit, those socks must be blocked, period. There is only one recourse here, and that is an unbanning proposal at WP:AN. Unless the community decides to unban this user, or unless His Honorable Lord Jibmo Wales overturns the ban, the policy is clear. IAR need not apply. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:01, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The proposal that a banned user's Reference Desk questions be somehow allowed to stand is being made by a lone editor, and for my part, I don't see any consensus developing around it. —Steve Summit (talk) 02:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

What complicates the issue is that other editors respond to a question, only to find their efforts reverted. Based on the argument that a question from anywhere in 1/16384 of the entire possible range of IP addresses must be this one banned user. What if the banned user is part of a school with a thousand children? Now they're all "trolls", and all answers to their questions disappear. Administrators have refused to block the range of IPs for just that reason; why should other editors be more restrictive? We've ended up with a duplicate ANI and Sockpuppet Investigations at the Refdesk talk page. Most fundamentally, the compromise I suggested is based only on the right of an editor in good standing to ask a question which happens to be the same as that asked by a banned user - something which I hope should not be controversial. Wnt (talk) 03:47, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

No one has claimed that anyone that edits from Light Current's range is Light Current. Not one person. However, Light Current has a very specific and well understood modus operandi, and the combination of his behavior with his IP address is a clear indicator that it is him. Merely because people know his behavior, and enforce his ban by removing his questions, does not mean that people have even once claimed that innocent users editing from that range should also be blocked. What has happened is that YOU, Wnt (and near as I can tell, you alone), have taken upon yourself to mischaracterize the work of others in such terms, but no one actually behaves or thinks that way, no matter how often you assert it as though it were true. Its simply not true. LC is an obvious troll, his fingerprints are distinct and recognizable, and it is unfortunate that your answers to his trolling questions get deleted along with the questions themselves. However, that doesn't mean that other people (you know, those people that are not you) cannot recognize him. --Jayron32 03:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'll grant that I don't know his modus operandi. Could you point me (and the rest of us) at some resources about that? The Refdesk questions were so short, I never imagined they could carry many fingerprints. Wnt (talk) 04:38, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Given that this was explained to you at WT:RD, and you chose to ignore it or discount it there, I doubt you'll listen here, but here goes. LC asks short, contextless questions about subjects which are either a) defecatory b) sexual c)bigoted or d) some combination thereof. An earlier popular subject was the planet Uranus, which can often be mistaken for the english phrase "your anus". LC has apandoned this motif, but other questions are usually easy to spot. Other recent gems have revolved around the size of someone colon, and the proper technique for masturbating a dog. Don't be ashamed, however, if you cannot easily spot him. The world is a diverse place, and we all have different skills. I, for example, am not a really good Basketball player, so I don't spend a lot of time playing basketball against better basketball players. Likewise, if you find that you lack the skills in the area of spotting LC socks, perhaps it would be best if you didn't get in the way of people who are really good at it. Its not a slight against you; like I said we are all good at different things, and that doesn't mean you are a bad person for not being good at identifying his socks. --Jayron32 04:51, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear - was that pattern described before the most recent round of questions? (And true, I never even thought about the weight of a human colon as defecation-related) Wnt (talk) 04:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

People told you those posts were him, and you clearly refused to believe them. This is all over WT:RD. Lets also make this clear:

• Sometimes, people who are not LC also ask immature, offensive questions. These are easy to spot since LC edits from a known set of IP addresses. We delete other obvious trolling questions as inappropriate, even if LC has nothing to do with them.
• Sometimes, people who are not LC, but edit from the same IP range, ask legitimate questions at the ref desks. These are easy to spot as the questions are usually well thought out, have a context, and don't delve into prurient interests, and don't follow up honest questions with inappropriate trolling later on.

Again, don't be ashamed if you cannot spot these things. People don't necessarily think less of me for my poor basketball skills. --Jayron32 05:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is what we're dealing with:

"The problem is that you are never going to be able to stop anyone determined (even me) from editing. 8-) People just have to live with it. If you dont like a Q, ignore it, but dont make a song and dance about it." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.110.50 (talk) 09:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

He's been at this for over 4 years. Someone needs to prove him wrong. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The Internet seems to be here to stay, and Misplaced Pages has the potential to last for the long term, too. Eventually, Light current will die of old age. And Misplaced Pages will still be here. Until then, WP:RBI. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Is BelloWello canvassing?

Regarding Southern Adventist University, Bello posted this request for help with Young Earth Creationism on an uninvolved user's Talkpage. Initially it seemed innocent enough to me, then I recalled Bello has had 3 other incidents with gaming the system:

1. Editing to the brink of 3RR, resulting in another user getting blocked (rightfully I might add)
2. Making trivial edits potentially to trap another user with 3RR
3. Accusing another user of COI to potentially to suppress his ability to edit. This resulted in a "final warning" from Jasper Deng

I began asking myself questions. I share them with you:

1. How is YEC even remotely related to SAU? Was this a pretense?
2. Why not just start a discussion on the talk page? Why assume the editors there are ignorant of YEC?
3. Why didn't he just edit the article himself and see what happens?
4. Why involve an editor who has never edited SAU about a topic which was never discussed at SAU?

Note that there is a Project Creationism banner on the talk page, added by Bello. At first I thought this bizarre, again since it is completely irrelevant, but it may have been added to justify the request to the uninvolved editor. Lionel (talk) 22:06, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I am addressing this question: How is YEC even remotely related to SAU? Was this a pretense? The Adventist Church is in the process of firming up its committment to YEC (Young Earth Creationism). SAU is an important entity in this process. It is of interest to those watching to wonder how Southern relates to the YEC issues. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Note: Donald is active on the SAU talk page, appears to be knowledgeable about SAU/YEC and would probably have been a valuable contributor to a discussion on the talk page had Bello started one. Lionel (talk) 22:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

<--This recently renamed mystery user has also had WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on P/I related stuff at DYK, where he seems very much at home, after making a first DYK nom April 24. , and in particular,

• 20110425 overriding concerns just expressed by Gatoclass OKs article Start-up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle as GTG
• 20110425 BATTLEGROUND and uncivil re same article
• 20110504 defends same article and claims all who oppose it are "involved"
• 20110504 BATTLEGROUND and uncivil re same article

Coninuing partisan battle is this edit where BelloWello censors out a good chunk of the article's very few critical comments, in clear violation of consensus-building that had been going on among other editors who were working to get the article balanced enough for DYK. With editing issues like this in more than one area, I wonder if we are looking at a new name of a banned user. betsythedevine (talk) 01:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC) (I just notified BelloWello of this discussion, since there was nothing on his talk page about it.)

See discussion of prior username, I presume if the old account was still blocked, the admin posting there who has knowledge of the old name, would have done something about it. Monty₈₄₅ 01:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I think BelloWello is just trying to be as bold as possible with his changes, but, the battleground behavior concerns me a bit as well. I personally think that his recent comments about Fountainviewkid's supposed COI (whom I've notified) and his recent edit warring, in addition to the gaming of the system, all of which we have already take note of, combine with those comments on the DYK template talk to suggest that BelloWello ultimately seems to have a long pattern of a BATTLEGROUND attitude, with gaming the system being used as a "weapon in the battle." But with that said, BelloWello has also made nice contributions recently too - he recently wrote a new article with few problems.Jasper Deng (talk) 02:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

• "How is YEC even remotely related to SAU?" The link provided in the cited comment on my user talk page provides a clear answer. Beyond that we have a reasonably broad overlap between creationism and Adventist academia, including (but not limited to) George McCready Price and the Geoscience Research Institute. As to the rest, I can't really comment upon it -- but it does seem to be rather a grab-bag of unrelated complaints -- and certainly complaints unrelated to the thread's title. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 06:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

YEC attack?

TJWinters (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:TJWinters is removing material from Yellowstone National Park which says humans were there 11,000 years ago, and from Whale shark which says the species is 60 million years old - edit summary reasons are that 11,000 years is not accurate enough and that 60 million years is not supported by scientific evidence. I've reverted and warned, but I'd rather hand over to someone else before I get close to 3RR myself - I don't think it's deliberate vandalism, but it sounds suspiciously like Young Earth Creationist actions to me -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:44, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

TJW is blocked for 24 hrs for disruptive editing. Under the circumstances, as far as I am concerned, you were reverting vandalism and 3RR would not apply. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm always a bit wary of treating it as vandalism where I think someone honestly believes their changes are right -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Note that there are other reasons for believing this user to be a YEC although I'm not sure if it would be violting WP:OUT to post them... suffice to say google is ones friend. 86.181.252.70 (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Or with the name spelled differently, it could just be a coincidence, or someone pretending -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Interesting in light of the discussion above about YES and Southern Adventist University, our Yellowstone article has had somewhat similar edits (in that they were downgrading the mainstream view) from someone also active at the SAU article. Dougweller (talk) 16:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Problem with Frank Guinta

The article concerning NH Representative Frank Guinta is getting extensive edits from an IP near DC: Special:Contributions/66.44.78.19. Others have tried to engage this IP in discussion on his talk page and on the article talk page, but in vain. His opinion, expressed in edit summaries, is that the article should talk about Guinta's official position but omit his campaign promises (for example). I don't know if we should ask for page protection, or a temporary block of the IP to get his attention, or for someone more experienced at BLP to figure out which if any of his requests are appropriate. The lawsuit against Guinta certainly got press coverage when it was filed less than 6 months ago, but is it still notable enough to be in the bio? Also, the behavior of the SPA account suggests possible WP:COI. Advice would be welcome if you have any -- thanks! betsythedevine (talk) 03:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I have notified 66.44.78.19 of the existence of this discussion. In the future, please remember that when you start an ANI discussion you are required to provide notice to the involved editors. Monty₈₄₅ 04:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I really apologize and I do know this but it was late at night and my brain wasn't working on all cylinders. Thanks for doing it for me. I appreciate it, and I appreciate the gentle tone of your reminder. betsythedevine (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

AIV Backlog

There is a lengthy backlog at WP:AIV, if an admin or two could take care of it, it would be appreciated. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Still 6 reports remaining. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Another blanking by a confirmed sockpuppet Koreanworld1

Koreanworld1 was identified as sockpuppet. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Koreanworld1. The user was exempted the block at the discretion of an uninvolved administrator. However the first edit after the SPI was the same blanking of the edit.. I request indefinite block to the user. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Just saying, wouldn't it be a good idea to start with that uninvolved administrator?--Wehwalt (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I contacted the admin at the talk page. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Request for taking administrative action against an editor using gutter language on Misplaced Pages

Hereby I draw the attention of the responsible individuals to the identification by User:Kwamikagami of my statements with "bullshit", here. The background to the issue at hand is as follows: having participated in the discussions here, yesterday I noticed that User:Kwamikagami has proceeded with changing the name of the entry at issue without there being any consensus for this action. On enquiring from User:Kwamikagami for the reason for his action, this user has responded by saying that "The count is irrelevant.", implying that the investment of my considerable amount of time in taking part in the discussion at issue had been a futile activity, at least from the perspective of User:Kwamikagami. Only later, after reprimanding this User for his use of the expletive "bullshit", has he informed me that the move request at issue has been the second in a series, about which I did not know and cannot be reasonably assumed to have known. Be it as it may, it is my considered opinion that a person who is inclined to serve himself with such term as "bullshit" in communicating with other editors, must not have any place in Misplaced Pages. If I have understood it correctly, Misplaced Pages is not a gutter, unless things have quietly changed since I joined Misplaced Pages some five years ago. I therefore hereby request that appropriate administrative actions be taken against User:Kwamikagami. I have experienced the behaviour of this User as revolting. --BF 11:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Civility standards on wikipedia have definitely eroded in the last 5 years. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

BF, I don't think you've notified Kwamikagami of this discussion. Please do so.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

You may not be aware of this, but in English "bullshit" is a relatively mild word, and it even has a technical meaning (related to "nonsense") that was explained very well in the little book On Bullshit. It appears that Kwamikagami used this word because he wasn't fully aware of the situation, and that he has apologised since he became fully aware. So I don't really see much of a problem. Hans Adler 12:00, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Wehwalt: You are absolutely right. However, I have experienced the behaviour of this User so revolting that I have earlier notified him that I would no longer place comments on his page. I am very sorry, but I cannot force myself to communicate with individuals who allow themselves to identify may remarks with "bullshit" --- it is beneath what I consider as being tolerable. --BF 12:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

BF, I did apologize. I apologize again. I did not understand that you did not understand the situation, and I assumed that you took your position purposefully. I would never have said that had I realized it was an honest mistake. — kwami (talk) 12:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, I even linked my use of that word to bullshit#In philosophy to make my meaning clear. Since BF apparently thought I was jumping the gun and moving a page that was under discussion before consensus had formed, I understand now why he was pissed off. It simply never dawned on me that he might be unaware of the context he was participating in (that he was demanding consensus to revert a non-consensual move, while in the middle of a discussion objecting to the move being made after a move request was closed as 'no consensus'), so I did assume he was BSing me. — kwami (talk) 12:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

BF, that's a bit hypocritical. In terms of the name-calling, you started out by calling kwami a pre-programmed machine and accusing him of perpetuating a falsehood. You clearly feel strongly about this issue, which is fine but you might want to calm down a little. Obvious fervour rarely leads to sane discussions on Misplaced Pages and your case is much more likely to succeed if you refrain from stuff like that. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Given his misunderstanding, I don't find his language unreasonable. If I had preemptively moved the page as he thought I had, I would have deserved it. — kwami (talk) 12:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

This request is BS mountain out of a molehill. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Hans Adler: For me, and for all people with whom I am in daily contact, "bullshit" has the literal meaning it conveys. I and members of my family aside, the overwhelming majority of my associates are from a Calvinist background and they are extremely strict in their use of words (for instance, they never conjoin the word "God" with any inappropriate word, following one of the ten Commandments). Personally, I believe that it reflects very badly on our contemporary culture when expletives are used so casually. Recall the horror that Bernard Shaw's play Pigmalion caused for the use of the word "damn" in it. It seems that we have moved very far from the norms that until not long ago defined civil societies. --BF 12:18, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

If your feelings are that tender, it might be better for your blood pressure to find some other past-time, this is the real world BF. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe the objection in Pygmailion was to the word "bloody" and that Higgins uses the word "damn" several times without any great notice being taken of it. You may be thinking of H.M.S. Pinafore--Wehwalt (talk) 12:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

• Think of the children

  Heavens-to-Besty, Aunt Bea, what's the wiki cumming to? Barong 12:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  • Words that you still can't say on over-the-air TV are not "mild". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
    • This is not a mild-fucking-project ;) Barong 12:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
      • No problem in UK over-the-air tv. Dougweller (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

BF has a persistent history of personal attacks and aggressive, arrogant behaviour of just the kind he has been displaying here. It is instructive to read through his contributions to the move debate that triggered all this ( and subsequent postings in the same vein), and note that he was previously blocked for personal attacks against that same user (2 weeks last year) and has multiple prior blocks for similar behaviour. I am minded to block him again. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:27, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I do find this complaint rather silly, given that he effectively calls others' arguments bullshit even if he doesn't actually use the word. But raising a frivolous ANI request isn't usually blockable behaviour. — kwami (talk) 12:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Akerbeltz: Please do not take my statements out of context! Above I explained the background to the issue at hand clearly and unequivocally. I repeat: having spent a considerable amount of my time on a discussion (whether I feel about the matter, strongly or otherwise, it not relevant here), I was shocked to be told that counting was irrelevant! If so, why should I have wasted my time? Please also read all that I have written on Kwamikagami's page and the chronological order in which I have written them. Further, if it is your conviction that I am being hypocritical, please do not hesitate to take action against me in response to what you conceive as hypocritical in my behaviour. The issue under the discussion here is whether for whatever reason an editor can describe the statements by another editor as "bullshit". Once this issue has been resolved, we can proceed with the contents of my texts of Kwamikagami's page. --BF 12:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, when you bring an issue here, your behavior also comes under scrutiny. Posting here does not authorize you to drive the agenda. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

And BF, you've been here long enough that you should understand that counting *is* irrelevant. Discussions aren't votes. The side that drums up the largest number of supporting opinions does not win. We consider the quality of the arguments more than their quantity, and also how they fit with WP guidelines. — kwami (talk) 12:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

So, erm, shall we close this thread now, given Kwamikagami's acknowledgement above? Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

(redacted -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC))

Oh wow, that is certainly a nasty personal attack if I ever saw one. I sense a boomerang about to hit home. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Does giving alleged initials violate WP:OUTING? I think regardless, we will have to wind up this thread shortly due to the enforced absence of a party.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I don't see where the admin gives his name or initials on his user page, so I would think the answer is YES. There are also various threats in that deleted comment. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I've RevDeleted several edits - BF, if you do that again you will be blocked -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to Boing and others. Given the fact that the "very reliable source" he was prepared to rely on is a criminal who used to follow me around with some very real, very nasty real-life attempts of intimidation, my tolerance level for such postings is indeed low. I've blocked him for a week for his earlier attacks against Kwami and that other user he's been in a feud with since last year. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

He went on to argue about my warning for outing on his Talk page, and repeated his posting of personal information there. So I have upped his block to indef and have revoked his Talk page access, and as suggested at Misplaced Pages:Unblock#Protection I have emailed ArbCom to let them know. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

As a note, I denied his request for unblocking on unblock-l, and refered him to the bans appeal subcomittee if ArbCom. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Since when did Brandt become a reliable source? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Somedifferentstuff introducing changes against consensus via revert warring

Somedifferentstuff (talk · contribs · logs · block log) has repeatedly reverted changes which only he supports (see , and continue to do this after warnings.

These are his reverts: 9 of them during the 5th of May: , , , , , , , and And an additional three today: , ,

Many of these changes are incomprehensible reverts of Cluebot dating fact-tags, showing that he is a newbie, and I've given him considerable leeway because of this, but he doesn't seem to be listening to the explanations I have given him: ,

He is also getting increasingly rude: , which is not a good sign. I think administrator action is needed so that he starts taking Misplaced Pages policies seriously and tries to cooperate and communicate with other editors instead of just disrupting. At least it's obvious I can't make it happen. :-) --OpenFuture (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

If necessary, I encourage the administrators to look at The Spirit Level (Book) talk page as well as all of the edits made on the article. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 13:41, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Whether or not your arguments have merit, you are not obliged to edit war over them. If I see a repeat of the antics of May 5 (including, as the reporter noted, your repeated reverting of a simple cleanup bot dating tags), then I'll block you. This is a collaborative project and it is mandatory that editors take heed of that. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 15:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

problems with diffs not showing in red text

I've already brought this up at the helpdesk , but with no responses, I thought I'd mention it here as well. Has anybody here found that diffs are no longer showing up in coloured text when comparing new & old? If so, have you found a cause and solution - because I haven't. a_man_alone (talk) 14:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

In my experience it's an intermittent, short-lived glitch. I don't know the technical aspects, apologies. Tiderolls 14:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

There are two threads at VPT concerning this: WP:VPT#No colour shading on diffs and WP:VPT#Is the lack of colors on diffs being worked on, or not? —DoRD (talk) 14:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll watch it there. a_man_alone (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Are you using IE? Prodego 17:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes; IE8, XP32bit. It's a fresh install too - les than three weeks old. a_man_alone (talk) 20:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Disruptive IP

Why does this IP keep getting "final warnings"? Look at the contribs page for this user, nothing but vandalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:99.17.216.47

Please consider a ban/block on this IP —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bofum (talk • contribs) 16:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The multiple warnings are because it is an IP and dynamic IP addresses are regularly reassigned to different people. So someone who got a warning today should not be assumed to be the same person who got a warning in, say, March -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, I wouldn't consider 14 edits over two years to be particularly disruptive in the big picture of things. —DoRD (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

No, and the IP hasn't made any edits since March 17, so there's nothing to do here -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Outraged

I am Catholic. I had heard that Misplaced Pages was a "poor mans encyclopedia". I read with interest the building of the article on Tahash. It was filled with interesting information and with references that anyone could look up and read. I also have read the comments (loosely so-called) made against the article by those who condemned the article as not having been researched to even having it called racist, to letters that were plainly swear words and yet it seems the administrators who were supposed to monitor what was printed let it go. The article has now been reduced to next to nothing and the vandals (I know how you define "vandal") that have done this are allowed to get by with it. The hoodlums who did this should take their talent for destruction and find a wall and use their "spray cans" on it, for such the vandals seem to be. How many good articles are going to be allowed to be destroyed by the administrators of Wiki, while they sit back and seem to enjoy the viciousness of these people? This does not seem to be a "poor man's encyclopedia". It seems to be a way for bigoted people to beat up verbally those who really try to inform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tillie Jean (talk • contribs) 16:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi! Misplaced Pages administrators don't monitor every article (how could we?). Rather, all Misplaced Pages volunteers- including yourself- can make changes to articles. I don't see any 'vandalism' by looking at the article Tahash, and your comment, although it contains lots of insults, isn't very clear about what you think is wrong with the article, so it will take some time to try to understand your complaint. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't see how religion or racism really plays into this. The article version Tillie Jean seems to prefer (by User:Michael Paul Heart) is here. It was edited down by User:Steven J. Anderson. This is a content dispute centring on the reliability of the sources used in the previous version. Fences&Windows 16:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Sigh, and I was working on a witty comment about socks. Ah well. The article is better now than it was before, it used to be a mess. Dougweller (talk) 17:01, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the article's history. It looks like User:Steven J. Anderson thought that a lot of the information in the article came from unreliable sources or was a synthesis of sources (Misplaced Pages isn't a first publisher of original ideas, so that doesn't work here the way it would in other places). Tillie Jean, your best choice would be to read the rules I just linked for you, then go to the article's talk page to discuss which parts of the article you think are well-sourced and should be restored. I don't have enough knowledge of this subject area to be helpful, but you could ask at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism and see if there are more knowledgeable users willing to look at the two versions of this article and participate in making the article better. You should also familiarize yourself with the idea of assuming good faith. As far as I can see, no one is making any personal attacks here, and everyone is trying to make the encyclopedia better- the two people involved with the editing dispute have different ideas about what's best for the article, and the administrators you're insulting have, for the most part, never noticed this article before today. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 17:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't notice that you were one of the two people involved in the editing dispute, but with a new name. You don't need to do that- if you're right, then just discussing your disagreement with other people politely is generally enough to get the best edits into the article. If you're wrong, then the right thing to do is to just gracefully accept that. Either way, starting a new account doesn't change your rightness or wrongness, so it's just confusing for other people. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 17:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Note that this isn't the only sock puppet of Michael Paul Heart (talk · contribs) - there have been at least two others. Dougweller (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The article as I found it was an endless coatrack of trivia, original research and novel synthesis. I made a few feeble stabs at trying to remove some of the more egregious material. Once I saw that the editor mainly responsible for its then-current state had departed the field of battle due to another dispute leaving this jeremiad (summary: Other editors are opposing my edits, therefore Misplaced Pages sucks, therefore I'm depriving you of my irreplaceable contributions.) I concluded that the most efficient, sensible, orderly improvement I could make to the article would be a massive reversion to an older version. I welcome improvements to the article, but as it was, it went on forever about nothing. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you made the right decision. There are many parts and sources of relevance in the other version, but it seems better to try to rescue them from the big version than to try to rescue the big version by cutting away the irrelevancies. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Less than noble editing

It may be a good idea if several responsible admins put these pages on their watch lists Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana‎ and Libro d'Oro; there seems to be some very dodgy editing and feuding on going on there. Giacomo Returned 18:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Dken5

An editor, dken5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has recently uploaded an image to the Commons with a clearly invalid license (sourced to an online quotation site) and added it to the Milton Friedman article. They have also directed a few personal attacks at other WP editors and appears to be engaged in edit warring. Would an admin please look into this? Thank you, --Eisfbnore  20:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, we can't do anything about Commons, and the attacks occurred a month ago, so that's sort of stale. Also, the edit warring seems to have stopped. My suggestion is to start a talk page discussion with him about whatever the edit warring was over and if a nice cup of tea doesn't solve the problem, come back here or to WP:AN3 if he breaches 3RR. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Yobot and inconsequential changes yet again

Despite two recent blocks and several recent discussions in which multiple uninvolved admins have commented that it is a violation of the bot policy and the AWB rules of use, Yobot (talk · contribs) (operator Magioladitis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) is once again making inconsequential changes. Would an admin please block it and leave it blocked until the operator agrees to cease the task in question and not re-start it once the heat dies down.

For those not familiar with the matter, Yobot has repeatedly made hundreds of edits that have no effect on the output, such as changing "{{infobox actor" to "{{infobox person" (the former redirects to the latter) and now changing "birthplace" parameters to "birth place", contrary to WP:BOTPOL#Bot requirements and WP:AWB#Rules of use (point 4). On the last two occassions, the nominator has loudly argued with the blocking admin and those who dared to agree with said admin (disclaimer, I was the blocking admin on the first of these) before assuring everybody it wouldn't happen again, only to restart the task a few days later when everybody's moved on. They have also unblocked the bot several times (a violation of the blocking policy) and repeatedlty restarting it when concerns have been raised on the talk apge (which stops it, because it's an AWB bot). Meanwhile, they continue to accuse myself and Courcelles (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), who blocked the bot last time, of admin abuse, of failing to understand the blocking policy and of misinterpreting the bot policy and perform the same task on their main account using AWB (which is technically block evasion).

This has gone beyond a joke. An admin needs to block the bot so it can't be restarted and leave it blocked and Magioladitis' conduct is in need of serious community scrutiny. I hate airing my dirty laundry on the drama board, but I don't see what else I can do. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Did you read why I was unblocked? I was asked to send the matter to the WP:BOTREQ where it was judged that the task is OK to proceed. So simple. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I am almost sure that you like th drama. Yobot was unblocked by the very person who blocked it and the task was resumed only after I got a green light in BOTREQ. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:58, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Leaving your increasing incivility to one side for the minute, Courcelles' log summary for the unblock was "reblock at once if problems resume" (emph. mine). Hardly a ringing endorsement. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'm a tad uneasy about the existence of User:Magioladitis#Comments on administrators who blocked Yobot. GiantSnowman 23:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

At some point I understood what Courcelles was talking about and I went to BOTREQ as I was instructed. H J Mitchell is just another story. -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Bot requirements fulfilled. The task serves the purpose of infobox standardisation. Check the edits of User:WOSlinker too and probably others. -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll get to work on that RfC/U then. Your conduct, for a bot operator and an admin, has so far been shocking and, at times, nothing less than decietful. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

You are welcome to comment there. Please take some time to read our arguments before commenting.

(Non-administrator comment) Maybe others will see it differently, but I don't see a consensus at Misplaced Pages:BOTREQ#Category:Infobox_person_using_deprecated_parameters to allow the bot to make inconsequential changes, in fact I saw one person who was supporting the changes clarify that they opposed them if they were not being made in conjunction with other changes to the page. To be clear, are you saying there is a consensus somewhere to the contrary? Monty₈₄₅ 23:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

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