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Revision as of 16:04, 11 March 2006

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Previous discussions on this article may be found here:

• Talk:Islamism/Archive 1
• Talk:Islamism/Delete
• Talk:Islamism/Archive 2
• Talk:Islamism/Archive 3

Origin of the term "Islamism"

Should there be a history of the use of the word Islamism/Islamist? Andjam 14:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the term "Islamist" is in itself discriminatory, incites hate, and muddies the distinction between non-fundamentalists and others. No other religious fundamentalist is named after their religion, how about a Christianist? How are we to avert conflict with Muslims if we don't use proper vocabulary? I think a much more accurate and less confusing term would be Shariaist/Shariaism, after the word Sharia. (Sharism/Sharist is already taken from "to share")

People argue that the word Islamist has history. So what? So does "nigger", should we resurrect that word?

Lou Dobbs from CNN initially said he would use the term while I was still in college. I don't remember the exact date but it was between 2002-2003 when Lou Dobbs started his college tour. 24.7.141.159 15:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

'See also' and 'External links' section length

It seems the "See Also" section is far too long. For one thing, listing all Islamist groups in this article seems unproductive. It would be better to have a new article "list of Islamist Groups" or something like that. Also, listing things like "Steven Emerson" and "Daniel Pipes" is really pushing the POV/NPOV line. There are plenty of people who specialize in Islamism - far too many to list in this article. Perhaps we can agree on a shorter list - say <10 items? Because of the controversy on this article, I would prefer to have some consensus on this before removing things. Comments please. --Vector4F 00:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

pushing the POV/NPOV line is an understatement. The whole list in 'External Links' is absolutely POV. Three articles of Daniel Pipes, the pope of anti-islamism, is two too many. More so when considering that there is a wikipage dedicated to Pipes, to which this article links. The other links are also contra-islamism. So, the list should be reduced (but not completely deleted of course). In order to balance all POVs and have NPOV, shouldn't there be at least one site which is sympathetic to islamism and one other which is critically inbetween pro and contra? -- ActiveSelective 20:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

User Yuber made some changes to the 'See also' section. I actually think there should be a listing of islamist groups, especially in an article about islamism! Where else? I would like to see these changes reverted.

The 'External links' section, however, should be worked on. (see my contrib above) -- ActiveSelective 11:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I cut down on the external links: 1 broken, 3 copies of other links, 1 promoting racist fear.

and I added a (imho very good) article on Islamism (The Prophet and the Proletariat): academic, both history and today, not pro, not contra, but critical of islamism

In total it is a bit less POV now, but still overwelmingly POV nevertheless: 5 contra-islamism (help fighting 'em), 3 suspicious of islamism (keep watching 'em), 1 critical (what are pro's and contra's?)

-- ActiveSelective 10:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Rampant Linking

The adding of rampant and off-topic links to articles is an editing method generally frowned upon in Misplaced Pages. I feel that this is harming and not helping the article. If you can say why you think these links should remain and make it good, please do so. As it stands, it looks to me as an unacceptable attempt at diluting the article or moral relativism; additionally, we have no similar links to Islamist Terrorism at Christian Terrorism and the standard at Misplaced Pages is to keep your links ON topic.

I also think that the doubling-up of the Islamist Movements and See Also section needs some cleanup. There are redundancies there.Queeran

I think the links to the somewhat similar ideologies that have developed with other religions are important and useful. There is more than one facet to Islamism, it is both an Islamic idea and a political science idea. This can clearly be seen by looking at the categories the article is in: it is part of the Islam category tree, but also part of the political theory tree. Thus we link to somewhat related ideas within Islam, such as Jihad, Dhimmi, and Wahhabism. We should also link to somewhat related ideas in political science, such as Dominionism.

I do agree that the double listing of Islamist organizations is a problem, and I have thus removed them from the see also. I also removed the prominent Islamist thinkers from this list, as they are already given considerable mention within the text of the article. - SimonP 04:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You will need to explain why Dominionism is supposedly similar, I do not see the connection.Queeran

Both Islamism and Dominionism are ideologies that advocate basing government structures on religious ideals. - SimonP 15:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

However, is not a proper form of debate, and the links are off-topic. The relationship to these is adequately handled by the link to Theocracy. Queeran

As no one bothered to answer that, but users keep trying to reinsert those links, I have once again deleted them. Queeran

I agree with you, Dominionism should not be linked from this article. It's too specific, Islamism is wholly another thing (in context), and relating these two is the job of an article like Theocracy. --Vector4F 19:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

POV

Islamism has been coined by replacing the term Islamic fascism by many neo-conservative and anti-Muslim writers. The same way, they have also coined the term Islamist from Islamic fascist. Now these terms have been used by many writers to refer to any Islamic organization or any Muslim person. Most of the people with Muslim background have been refered to as Islamist they could be Muslim fundamentalist but they are not Islamic fascist. I would request that Wilikipedia review use of these two term and replace them with Islamic, Muslim, Islamic fundamentalism or Mulim fundamentalist as appropriate. The defination of fascism and fascist should also be reviewed in this context. I would be raising NPOV for every entry of Islamist and Islamism. User:Siddiqui 17:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that these issue(s) should be reviewed. I would support coordination to that effect - for example a cross-article consensus on the use of these terms - and I would be glad to participate. Clear terminology is in everyone's interests. On the issue of this specific article, do you have any examples of usage that you disagree with? I welcome another perspective. --Vector4F 23:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Was this not already covered somewhere else? In either event, I believe we should avoid weasel words. Queeran

As I've argued here in the past, the term "Islamism" and "Islamist" was not coined by neo-conservatives and has a long history in scholarly literature that is at least neutral with respect to Muslims (if not sympathetic), and means more or less what this article describes. I think what you meant to say was Islamists and Islamism have been relabeled by neo-cons as "Islamic fascism" or "Islamofascists". However, there really ought to be some term to describe people of this political persuasion that is NOT perjorative, and "Islamist" is it. The article on Islamofascism deals, I think, with perjorative connotations of that term. Is that not satisfactory? If not, why not? Graft 02:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with what Graft states. This has become the standard term for this subject, and is not usually considered pejorative. - SimonP 03:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

We do not agree. This matter has to be discussed furthur. The Islamist and Islamism is totally unacceptable. Each and every Muslim political organization and many Muslim leaders has been termed as "Islamist" which is untrue. Some organizations are fundamentalist but not involved in any militanncy yet they are termed as "Islamist". I will have to raise pov for each and every instance of use of these words in Misplaced Pages.

User:Siddiqui 18:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The term does not indicate militancy, and that is not the way it is used in this article. Furthermore, it is absolutely untrue that "Each and every Muslim political organization ... has been termed as 'Islamist'". Even were this the case, what of it? I can find many examples of people ignorantly throwing labels around. I don't see how this reflects on the proper meaning of "Islamist". Graft 22:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Graft, SimonP, etc. It seems that the only definition of Islamism advanced in this article is that of a political position that advocates, to some degree, the application of Shar'ia. --Vector4F 00:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem that none of you seem to understand is that, to Muslims, Islam is a complete way of life. Shar'ia is applied in many Muslim nations, including current United States allies such as Pakistan. The idea of splitting spiritual Islam from the actual way of life of Islam is a Western convention and shows a gross lack of understanding of the religion by the authors of this article. To that extent, if we are going to continue to use this term to define what amounts to a set of people who a militant perspective then we must clear state that Islam and Shar'ia cannot be split. Neglect of this fact shows that most, if not all, the authors of this article has biased. I'm also going to vote for NPOV and Unverified facts tags. 24.7.141.159 15:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I will have to object to Siddiqui's claims. First of all, the term Islamist does not come from "Islamic Fascist" any more than the term "Communist" comes from "Communal Fascist" or any other idea. Even the term Fascist itself is derivative, meaning one who advocates a sort of governing system known as Fascism.

The term Islamist is used to describe someone who advocates Islam, the rule of Islam, or in particular the backwards Shari'a legal system that Islamic jurisprudence claims is "holy" law, in a particular nation or all over the world. Because of this, I have to agree with SimonP, Graft, and Vector4F on the matter.

As for "each and every Muslim political organization" being termed "Islamist", sadly, the term extends to many of them. Not all, and I do not believe all, but the vast majority because any organization which sends money to so-called mujahid anywhere in the world, any organization which advocates the entrance into secular law of islam-based crimes or punishments, can thereby be termed Islamist under this definition. In fact, there are probably some people who would say that you - because you are raising the objection of "POV" but are more concerned that the word is some form of an insult to Islam - might be termed an Islamist thereby yourself. Queeran

Issue raised by MediaMonitors.net

"For example, one needs to have a look at the lead definition of Islamism, Islamic Fundamentalism, Islamic World and Dhimmi. Misplaced Pages doesn’t say who coined the term “Islamism” and when. It rather says it is “a set of political ideologies” which “hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that should govern the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state.” Before making it the lead definition, did the editors give it a thought to verify and see why did the Qur’an called Islam a Deen for Muslims? If Islam is not a Deen—a way of life—what is it actually? And if it is a way of life, why should it not cover “legal, social and economic imperatives.” Interestingly, there is no entry for Deen in Misplaced Pages. There is only a reference to a Bosnian dancer by the name of Deen. The absence of Deen in Misplaced Pages is not for the reason that there is no space for Arabic entries or it is less important than other Arabic terms such as Riba. A proper definition of the word Deen with reference to the Qur’an will nullify the falsehood under Islamism."

Can we create an article called Deen, and can we get the origin of the word Islamism into the article (from memory, I think it was Voltaire who first coined it)? - Ta bu shi da yu 21:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't give a lot of credit to the criticism (Misplaced Pages isn't a standards board), but this seems like a good reason for an article. It is very important to clarify terms. Unfortunately, I have no sources on where the term "Islamism" originates. --Vector4F 06:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Systematic bias of nomenclature exposed

A supermajority of determined participants at Misplaced Pages has the strength to impose their will regardless a neutral, scholarly perspective, but the fact that Islamism is the topic of an article hostile to political aspirations in much of the Islamic world, while Christianism redirects to a main article about the faith reveals the deep systematic bias of those who dominate this project. 12:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I never understand why people speak of systematic biases in such vague terms. It makes it sound like a conspiracy. Just be clear. What would you like to see changed and why? --Vector4F 06:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• "A supermajority of determined participants at Misplaced Pages has the strength to impose their will regardless a neutral, scholarly perspective" (from User:PilgrimsProgress) Is it just me or does that sound like a threat? Veej 06:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Either that or a plea to victimization. Regardless, one "ism" of a religion is not parallel to another "ism". We can't argue essential meanings here, just usage. --Vector4F 20:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

With respect to this topic, I've added NPOV tags. A reading of this talk page clearly shows that Vector4F has an axe to grind against proponents of Islam. I highly suggest looking at this link for how to balance this article out: Islamofascism#Criticism_of_the_use_of_the_term The same criticisms of that term apply to this Misplaced Pages article. Until that section is copied over or something similar added to counteract the bias here, I am going to vote to keep the NPOV tags on this article. The link section also needs a clean up because most, if not all, the external sites listed are largely Islamophobic orgs. 24.7.141.159 16:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)