Misplaced Pages

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WikiAlpha Using Misplaced Pages Platform to grow their site

It almost seems that this site is trying to compete with Misplaced Pages directly. This came up at the AN/I Noticeboard (I've since replied, that permalink is the diff. for what concerns me); namely, when an article is put up for deletion, there is now some weird bot running around notifying users that the article is being "preserved" on WikiAlpha. In other words, they are illegitimately using a bot on Misplaced Pages to advertise their own Wiki site.

In my opinion, this must be stopped. Also disconcerting is the fact that WikiAlpha looks almost identical to Misplaced Pages. If it wasn't for the logo in the top left and seeing that I am unable to post because I'm not logged in there (apparently anonymous editing is forbidden), I wouldn't have known the difference.

Is there something we can do about this issue beyond what admins. can? Can they be stopped from promoting themselves on our wiki network? Your input at AN/I would be welcomed on this and anything related. CycloneGU (talk) 04:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Relevant to this is Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Require Captcha for Special:EmailUser. I feel that legal action may be necessary to put an end to this if technical solutions do not work.Jasper Deng (talk) 04:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I am in agreement that legal action on the part of WMF may indeed be necessary (basically a cease and desist, and if failure of that, further action), yet I have been choosing not to state it aloud myself to this point. I will also refer to this VP bit at AN/I, however. Thanks for that. =) CycloneGU (talk) 04:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't consider them a big threat considering that the majority of editors on Misplaced Pages are well-educated people who would not allow a troll site like them replace us. I mean, it's no different from Encyclopedia Dramatica, and the current website of the former MyWikiBiz.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

No, they're not a threat at all. But nonetheless, because of the fact that the site looks exactly like Misplaced Pages, unaware observers could be coming across an article copied from Misplaced Pages at WikiAlpha instead. That would be a possible concern, that they are copying pages that are nominated for AfD and then when it's kept here trying to compete with us. Google is smarter than that, I would hope, and keep putting Misplaced Pages results first, but you never know. CycloneGU (talk) 05:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

But even more serious is admin Moonriddengirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s comment here, which seems to be a huge breach of community trust.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC) (This has been withdrawn - please see her talk page and my mentor's)

I wouldn't go that far. But at the same time, if the content is licensed under the Creative Commons license and she freely gives that information to WikiAlpha without properly attributing it to the original authors, then we have a copyright issue under the Creative Commons license, do we not? Please correct me if I am mistaken, I'm not the best source on legal information regarding the license, it's just my understanding. CycloneGU (talk) 05:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

If we delete an article, how can we still claim copyright on it? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The material is still on the servers, and thus, the WMF still technically has all rights to it.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Even so, it strikes me as a classic Dog in the Manger scenario. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

How does this situation differ from the countless wikipedia mirror sites you can find via google or whatever? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Those sites seem to be unfavored by WMF, and more importantly, the servers there are not the WMF's. They attribute.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

What does "unfavored" mean? And as regards attribution, this WikiAlpha thing states out front that it's from wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

WMF doesn't really like the mirrors, particularly the ones that directly load from Misplaced Pages. WikiAlpha doesn't seem to be really attributing to our editors who spend so much time here. It isn't the only trouble they're causing.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:32, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

So if wikialpha were strictly a "passive" mirror site, nobody would care all that much? And it's the e-mail spamming that's the main difference and the main problem? Or are there other issues? And I still question the complaint that they aren't attributing. They're saying that this stuff is coming from wikipedia. How is that not "attributing"? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

"You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons License." Also, they're trying to release it all in the Public Domain. Jasper Deng (talk) 05:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

"Public domain" could be an issue. But back to attribution, are you saying that if they had a proper URL for wikipedia, instead of just saying "wikipedia", it would be OK? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Technically, yes, but they don't.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I know they don't. But if they did, would the attribution issue go away? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I made some comments at WP:ANI/N that relate to both discussions Nil Einne (talk) 07:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't normally comment on Jimbo's talk page, but I was seeing several people above weren't aware of the previous disputes, so I felt I had to list them here. The licensing dispute was discussed at WP:VPM with involvement from WikiAlpha admins. They acknowledged a licensing problem and stated they would work to fix it. Jasper, the comment you quoted from Moonriddengirl was directly related to this first discussion. They were again discussed at AN/I regarding the email spam, and they (then) pledged to stop it. Cue the current discussion where it appears they are again using the email system to notify users of copied articles. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 06:49, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages content is supposed to be freely released to the world. Using the combination of deletion and a Creative Commons license to maintain permanent control over Misplaced Pages content, by claiming the right of administrators to retroactively remove the right of people throughout the world to copy and use any arbitrarily chosen part of it, would make the entire project a lie. I sincerely hope this is not a legally viable argument - the CC says a link is attribution; it's not WikiAlpha's fault if Misplaced Pages won't serve it any more except to administrators. Wnt (talk) 14:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Attribution requirements are set out in full at Terms of Use and Misplaced Pages:Reusing Misplaced Pages content. WikiAlpha has been advised to provide a list of contributors where articles are deleted, and I hope that they are doing so. They certainly seemed willing when I discussed the matter with them earlier and modeled the approach. (In cases where they could no longer access the list of contributors because the articles have been deleted, I've offered to pull up the history for them and did so with that and several other articles.) Jasper Deng is a bit confused about what I did and said to them; I've explained in response to his question at my own talk page. But it's important to note that there is an additional misunderstanding above: "the WMF still technically has all rights to it." The WMF does not own rights to it (except the right to use it as licensed, a right given to everyone); as per WP:C, "The Wikimedia Foundation does not own copyright on Misplaced Pages article texts and illustrations." Copyright is owned by contributors, who have the option to pursue remedy if their content is being misused; see WP:MIRRORS. --Moonriddengirl 14:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

What if they think other editors deciding to delete something is "misuse"? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

From a copyright standpoint, they're out of luck. :) The license does not require perpetual publication. --Moonriddengirl 14:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• I think the website is beyond ridiculous...all the wikialpha is is a site picking up the Misplaced Pages's sloppy seconds. If it was all just a safe haven for Transformers cruft and similar nonsense then I wouldn't give it a second thought, but one problem is their preservation of swilly like the Lewinsky neologism article. Tarc (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• They have 133 articles. http://annex.wikia.com/Main_Page has 4,414 articles that were threatened on Misplaced Pages so they moved them over there. There use to be a deletion-pedia or something also. Plus when people start deleting articles, its common to copy their entire history over to a proper Wikia for them. You just have to put the tag that it originally came from here, and its fine. When people were mass deleting vast numbers of list articles, many were copied over to http://list.wikia.com/Main_Page and the same way with other things. Whenever I save an article up for deletion, I always post on the talk page of the person who created it, telling them where to find it at now. If there is a problem with them emailing people, if anyone getting the email are actually complaining, then tell them to just get a bot to post a message on the user's talk page instead. Dream Focus 16:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I think some people have missed the hazard this idea poses to Misplaced Pages's mission. To give an example, suppose I wanted to set up a cheapo biotech stock information site with market data, commentary, and (reviewed and reworked) Misplaced Pages articles in a tab for each company. Then some deletionist goes on a spree and half the companies are deemed "not notable" (not at all implausible). Does that mean that everything I've done with that Misplaced Pages text immediately has to be deleted off my site, because it's "unattributed"? I hope not, but if so, then for any writer to copy text from Misplaced Pages - even with an attribution "to Misplaced Pages" - is really no different than copying text off a random Web page with an unknown author! Even if you check the article's existence, it's not safe to use, because the text could have been added by someone whose edit was revdeled or selective deleted on account of unrelated text that was present in the article at the time. Of course, Misplaced Pages also would be in violation of the same copyright terms in that instance...

I say: (1) authors ought to be safe to cite Misplaced Pages whether an article is deleted or not, because an admin acting properly like Moonriddengirl should help to ensure that attribution information is available to any third party (2) To avoid the risk that a legal case would disagree, Misplaced Pages should develop software to automatically provide a full list of editors on demand for any deleted article, no matter what the reason for deletion, except for authors using the "right to vanish" who would be deemed as making a request not to be attributed in the CC license. Wnt (talk) 17:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Are you recommending that editors in good standing should also be able to see their deleted stuff, and not just admins? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the suggestion is basically that when the article is deleted, the history tab remains visible. This is an interesting idea, as it could be useful from an attribution standpoint when articles are deleted. If, for example, content from article This has been merged into article That but the merger not noted on the talk page of article This, we currently are likely to create attribution issues if This is deleted. If we retain the history, we comply with license. (That said, rev deletion does comply with license, so that's not an issue; admins should know that with selective deletion they cannot retain content added by that contributor. I hope they do, anyway.) --Moonriddengirl 17:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Excellent idea, and it would make WikiAlpha's primary reason for existence vanish. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:04, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, people wouldn't actually be able to see the content, if I'm understanding, but only the list of contributors, so it would look like this. :) --Moonriddengirl 18:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I was actually proposing even something a bit less - that the list of authors be visible, but not necessarily the edit summaries. I wouldn't mind including edit summaries, but people might complain they contain BLP violations, spam, etc. What's most important is that the bare minimum required attribution (which I think is the names) be available for every article, no matter what, both by individual queries and in a bulk download, so that writers can feel secure using Misplaced Pages content. Wnt (talk) 18:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

@MRG Plus the edit summaries, which, as an off-topic aside, look interesting around 3 Jan.--SPhilbrickT 18:48, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Good point. :) Not pretty, that! --Moonriddengirl 12:49, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• I was told that even if I do a full import of the entire history of an article, showing every person who contributed, it still wasn't legal unless I had the proper tag on it saying it was from Misplaced Pages and linking to the website and its history. Rather silly really. Using http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Export gives you the option of exporting the most recent version of things or the entire history. Sometimes the entire history, even if just one article, is too long to import. If there was program to automatically take articles, their talk pages, their images, and the entire history, and save it as manageable pieces to someone's harddrive, so they could then upload it to Wikia or elsewhere, that'd be great. And change the rules to say hey, the entire history is here, no need to link back to where the article use to be before it was deleted on Misplaced Pages. Dream Focus 18:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Without commenting on the rest of the discussion the reason I still think there should be a link back to Misplaced Pages is because even with a full history dump you can't "truly" attribute because the usernames being referenced in the history 'exist' on Misplaced Pages (so the guy who edited it is User:Jamesofur@Misplaced Pages not User:Jamesofur@Wikialpha who could be me or could be someone else). James of UR (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
    • That's true, but I think that's currently the responsibility of the contributor. CC-by-SA requires display of "the name of the Original Author (or pseudonym, if applicable) if supplied and/or (ii) if the Original Author and/or Licensor designate another party or parties (e.g. a sponsor institute, publishing entity, journal) for attribution ("Attribution Parties") in Licensor's copyright notice, terms of service or by other reasonable means, the name of such party or parties...." We could give them that ability, but our Terms of Use do not provide for (ii); the only requirement being made by the Original Author is that any one of the three explicitly permitted practices be followed. I take comfort in the knowledge that even when legal names are used, they aren't generally unique. :D --Moonriddengirl 12:49, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Related Question

I realize that all the content on Misplaced Pages is covered by the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and GFDL. My question is this. If someone copies information from here that is a violation of Misplaced Pages policies, like Verifiability or especially BLP, once it leaves Misplaced Pages, it won't be readily fixed or improved. So, my question is, what sort of responsibility do they have at that point, or do we have at that point? -- Avanu (talk) 15:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how wikipedia could have any responsibility for what's on someone else's website. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

True but traditionally we in the community have tried to assist people if there is a serious error which originated at Misplaced Pages. One problem is that plenty of mirrors are lazy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the current date and time could be imposed into the lead somewhere, when an article is saved? Then the mirrors will (or at least might) show how old the article's version is. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Jimbo, do you have any comment about WikiAlpha's spamming (above)? In any case, I don't see why mirrors try to copy us if they're lazy. You don't copy 3.6 * 10 articles if you're lazy. Yes, Baseball Bugs, I agree that it would be good to timestamp article revisions, but, the logistics of it are so complicated.Jasper Deng (talk) 19:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

You don't copy 3.6 * 10 articles if you're lazy.

More specifically, 3,686,878 articles (and growing) is more accurate. CycloneGU (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• I think the phrase, "mirrors are lazy" refers to mirror websites not updating the copies for the latest revisions, which requires active uploads, or active comparisons of revisions/dates. It seems that mirror articles have been copied, years ago, and never updated, so that any prior vandalism or factual errors remain, as though Misplaced Pages keeps that problem text, indefinitely, when many text errors are corrected, in WP pages, within 6 months (but some new errors might be added also). -Wikid77 04:00, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• If WikiAlpha copies material which later gets them sued, it's their fault. It is their responsibility to ensure that their content is not libellous. WMF doesn't hold the copyright for individual contributions, and once it'd deleted here they are no longer hosting the completed work either, so there shouldn't be any liability on WMF's behalf. Individuals who happen to have broken the law (copyvio) or posted things which would get them sued (libel) are still responsible for their contributions even if they're deleted here and escape into the wild, as the license to redistribute is irrevocable and thus ill-judged edits may be impossible to suppress. I suppose editors should be aware of that from the very beginning. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 18:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Just wondering...

Jimbo Wales, do you allow people to {{trout}} you? Or rather, are you ok with people doing so, even if you don't have {{troutme}} on your user page? LikeLakers2 (talk) 12:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest a trout is pretty banal for Jimbo. Maybe a haddock? Mind you, I'm sure this site gives Jimbo enough haddocks as it is... Tony Fox (arf!) 17:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I think a whale (get it? Jimbo Wales; Whales. *shot*) would be better. Or, considering he is the/a founder of Misplaced Pages, how 'bout a barnstar? LikeLakers2 (talk) 17:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty relaxed. The basic way to understand me is that I'm probably much more calm than most people realize.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well in that case...

=3 (copied from whale template instead of using the template tag because I didn't want it to use alot of space.) LikeLakers2 (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• As a note, I have already trouted LikeLakers2 for threatening to trout Jimbo. I like to have fun with things like that. =) CycloneGU (talk) 22:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• And I'm considering trouting you for trouting LikeLakers2 for threatening to trout Jimbo. It's my firm belief that everyone should enjoy the right for a good trouting. Fish for everyone! elektrikSHOOS (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• I hate seafood. Can I ask for another animal? Also, twas only good, clean, fun. =) CycloneGU (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how to feel myself about seafood, but consensus is that fish make for decent slapping material. And yes, it's all in good fun. At least for the moment. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 22:32, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Well, if you think you can slap a cyclone with a fish (I shoot them into the air and back into the water), good luck with that. =) CycloneGU (talk) 22:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

No camel templates?Camelbinky (talk) 02:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

A chicken would suffice for me. They can fly at low altitudes into you. CycloneGU (talk) 03:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, how does camel-ing somebody work? I want to know. NickDupree (talk) 03:58, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Something like, "You have been smacked with a wild rampaging camel by YOURNAMEHERE!" CycloneGU (talk) 14:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

More like "You have been spat on by a wild rampaging camel by YOURNAMEHERE!" The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

We need a template for being pigeoned. "YOURNAME's pigeon just pooed on your head! Yuck!" CycloneGU (talk) 21:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Jay Brannan

I believe you should have a look at this: WP:BLPN#Jay_Brannan. Especially read the comments this person has made in the edit summaries like, "Misplaced Pages you are ruining my life". I hope it doesn't, say, lead to a suicide. Alex Harvey (talk) 14:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Or to a defamation lawsuit. Unless someone identifies as gay, wikipedia has no business commenting on it. This is wikipedia, not "Out" magazine. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not defamation or suicide territory. It's not that he's not gay, and perfectly public and at ease about it. It's that he has a political campaign that no one should be labeled as "gay" or "straight" since we are all just humans (or something like that). It's a defensible though rather outré belief, but it's not one that the Misplaced Pages shares. If the Misplaced Pages wanted to take the the position that no article should label its subject as "gay" or "straight", fine; but we don't make exceptions for individual articles and allow the subject to define themselves for political reasons or as part of a political campaign. Herostratus (talk) 16:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply. --JN466 22:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Unless Brannan's sexuality is related to his notability, why do we need to discuss it in an article about him? And BTW, can you tell me how you know what Misplaced Pages 'believes'? We have policies (often ignored admittedly - frequently in regard to this issue), but I'm not sure that there is a requirement that contributors 'believe' anything specific. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

If he's openly gay, and if sources back it up, then it's fair game for inclusion on that basis. Whether it's notable or not is a different story. Because there's also a political campaign (which turns up in wikipedia, unsurprisingly) to make the "gay" category as broad as possible. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

"It's fair game for inclusion" isn't actually a reason to include it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

That's why I said notability also figures into it. I'm just saying if you have sources, then you've got that requirement checked off. Having sources is not a ticket for inclusion, though, it's merely one of the requirements for inclusion. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I had to ask to have my name removed from a list of atheists here at Misplaced Pages, and I think the reason I was on there is precisely the same sort of thing that Baseball Bugs identifies above: some people have a political agenda to broaden categories as much as possible. Whether that agenda is legitimate or not, I leave outside of Misplaced Pages. All I know is that jamming these things down people's throats in Misplaced Pages is wrong. Basically, AndyTheGrump and Baseball Bugs are both right: the question here is whether or not it is notable. A sad irony might be, if this guy is part of a public campaign to say "I'm gay but I think no one should be assigned a label" that might cause enough press coverage of his sexuality to make it notable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Given the BLP over reactions/concerns on here I'm surprised by the fact that this guy wants action taken doesn't account for something. But at the end of the day wikipedia is not censored and to people who know he is a gay or have even heard of him (I haven't and considered myself very knowledge about guitarists and good music) they might find it odd that it is not mentioned yet is in other articles on gay musicians. And he gets 250 hits roughly on average a day, which is 80,000 hits a year so to delete his article, somebody else would inevitably keep starting it at a later date anyway. not sure what his problem is if he claims to be openly gay on his website and that this is known by people who've heard of him.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, OK. Well, as to how relevant his sexuality is, I'd say somewhat, since he writes about relationships and sex and so forth, not exclusively, but sometimes, and his being gay informs that (e.g., a song about fellatio, etc.). If he was a tennis player or something It'd be different, I guess.

As a philosophical exercise, consider five hypothetical cases. In each, the subject is categorized as a member of the XYZ religion. All five are novelists, and it'd be reasonable to say that their XYZishness informs their work -- a lot of their characters are XYZers and they use terms from XYZ lingo and so forth -- so all things being equal it's worth noting. Each of the five sends a request to Misplaced Pages to remove the description of them as an XYZer, but each gives a different reason:

1. I don't to be identified as XYZ because I live in a country where XYZers are executed.
2. I don't wish to be categorized as XYZ because I'm not observant and don't believe in that stuff, notwithstanding my parentage and upbringing.
3. I don't wish to be categorized as XYZ. I don't have to say why and I won't; it's my article, so please honor my request, thanks.
4. I don't wish to be categorized as XYZ, and in fact I insist that you remove all the categorizations and related descriptions of me -- "born in 1957", "from Texas", "was graduated from Rutgers", "American", and so forth. All of these are gross simplifications and therefore falsifications of the complex reality that is me (or any human) and cast an unjustified overemphasis on certain aspects of my existence, which inherently detracts attention from other, more germane, aspects.
5. I don't wish to be identified as XYZ because this implies a false dichotomy between "XYZ" and "non-XYZ" persons. I reality, everybody is XYZ (since, obviously, everyone is subject to the Law and the Judgement of the True God, XYZ) and the only difference is between those who know it and those who don't. My life's work is to get this understood and accepted by the world and I don't appreciate the Misplaced Pages undermining this. I'm willing to be categorized as an XYZer if and when the Misplaced Pages agrees to categorize all persons as XYZers, either observant or non-observant.

For #1 and #2, of course we would accede to the person's wishes. For #3, I don't know -- it would depend, I guess. But for #4 and #5? Not to sure about that, but I dunno. Maybe. It's in interesting question. If one's answer is "accept", this raises some further interesting questions, though. (BTW and FWIW I'd say that Brannan's position includes a bit of #4 and #5.) Herostratus (talk) 23:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Brannan's position seems to be that he doesn't think 'gay' is a meaningful categorisation - Can you explain why this is wrong? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:51, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

In some or perhaps many or most cases, I think it's probably true that the category is not meaningful. A good example might be Anderson Cooper even if he ever does self-identify as gay (as far as I know, he has not). The point there would be that none of what makes him notable or interesting has anything to do with being gay. Even if there has been some press coverage about his sexuality (there has been) and even if he confirms it (he has not) and even if that's worth mentioning in the article, it still would not be sensible to list him in a category of "gay television personality" because there's nothing about his sexuality that has anything to do with his career.

Having said all that, this isn't clear to me in the Brannan case. In the BLPN discussion the following points were raised by Hekerui: "If being gay is insignificant to his career, why does he joke about it in the intro to his official video for "Can't Have It All", makes a parody about having a guy's baby in "Housewife" and sings about a "Half-Boyfriend" (all songs on his first album), not to mention the unsimulated gay sex scene in Shortbus?" I don't think that's definitive, necessarily, but these are valid points.

To sum up: Anderson Cooper is a television presenter who, in his private life, completely unrelated to his career, possibly gay. Even if he confirmed his gayness, it might merit mention, but wouldn't be a defining characteristic. That's very different from someone whose very career is wrapped up with his gayness.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I think we are quite at liberty to describe the gay themes in his work, but should respect his wishes as to his private sexuality. We shouldn't second-guess people on that, as a matter of principle, irrespective of how "obvious" the matter may seem to us. (Heck, Jack White sang "Jolene", including the lyrics "Please don't take my man".) Categories require self-identification per WP:BLPCAT. Per the FAQ on his website, Brannan does not self-identify as an "LGBT musician". He takes strong exception to that label. What else is there to discuss? --JN466 18:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

• I also sometimes wonder if people are playing for sympathy, you know: "Any publicity is good publicity" where fighting Misplaced Pages becomes a publicity stunt. I'm not saying this applies in this case, but what are any guidelines being developed to downplay using complaints about WP to gain publicity? Mostly, we have discussed avoiding the inclusion of WP:UNDUE details, or a political ideal to not use Misplaced Pages to maintain Gestapo "hit lists" of Pink Triangle armbands for the next Holocaust (just recently saw The Pianist (2002 film) about the 500,000 Jewish Warsaw ghetto). So, we agree that WP is not "censored" (ideally), but we need to keep the adjust-guidelines conversation going to avoid fueling of publicity stunts, and to avoid hit-list categories (especially when people raise the volume about it). I'm half asleep, but someone please link to discussions about curtailing WP complaints to defuse publicity ploys. -Wikid77 05:06, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Female actor vs actress

I have proposed to split Category:Actors into actors and actresses in the same way male and female singers are split. However, there seems to be dispute that actress is no longer an acceptable term. I said to me Judi Dench will always be an English actress and it would seem natural to categorize her as a Category:English actresses. I need some input here as to what is desirable.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

IIRC it was decided by consensus a long long time ago to bring the two together and trash the "actress" concept. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

There was an ugly fight about it many many years ago. I say follow reliable sources, but that may be difficult to prove one way or the other. What do the style guidelines of the BBC, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Guardian have to say about it? "Actress" is still in common usage with 22,637 hits in Google (news.google.co.uk). I don't think anyone can seriously argue with a straight face that it is offensive, but there could be an argument that it is no longer the WP:COMMONNAME, I don't know.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The Guardian incidentally published this article. It looks as if the word "actress" is going to become like "poetess". But right now I'd sya it is still is wide useage and most people still refer to female actors as actresses. We still have Best Actress Oscar , Best Actress Golden Globe etc. God I hate political correctness. As much as I loathe the word "bespoke" to refer to custom made goods. How in any way the word actress is demoralising or offensive to women beats me. For me is simply refers to a female actor.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

If we can say "female actor", then we should be able to say "actress". Its shorter, its well known, and its really saying the same thing. Regardless of what Whoopi Goldberg says, who is known for her wit and comic statements, there is no reason an "actress" can't play any part. Her logic from the Guardian article is pretty much a statement on equality in talent. The idea that society needs to entirely eliminate the ideas of male or female is sort of silly. -- Avanu (talk) 18:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

People who make a conscious decision to be easily offended will say, with a straight face, that it is offensive. People who aren't crazy will disagree. Resolute 19:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Things do get a little blurry in The Year of Living Dangerously, in which Linda Hunt, a woman playing a man named Billy Kwan, won the Academy Award for Best Supporting... Actress. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The way I see it is all the award ceremonies say "actor" as exclusive to male, and actress for female, no matter how politically correct you "want", actors/actresses are unionized in a guild (Screen Actor's Guild), perhaps we should respect whatever they use in reference to women who act, since that would be their official representative, and at the SAG awards as elsewhere I believe it is Actress and Actor. There is a no more accurate or definitive source for the names than SAG, primary or not. Feminists can decry and publish in secondary sources that it is offensive all they want, but in the end we dont go by what feminists call actresses, we go by what actresses call themselves. I cant publish that from now on all Canadians are to be called Northwest-by-west Australians and get Misplaced Pages to start putting individual Canadians into a category of that name, no matter how much it catches on, because Canada will (I hope) officially state their citizens are Canadians (though please do feel free to spread around my new name for Canadians). I see it problematic to state in an article that someone won "best actress" or was nominated for such but the category is that the person is a "female actor" (and if this succeeds we'll have to start using this terminology elsewhere in the article as well, or people will complain inconsistent and "offensive")Camelbinky (talk) 20:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we should endeavor to be ahead of any language curve which might prefer pushing a term such as "Actress" into antiquity. It is still in common vogue, entirely unoffensive, and easily understood. IMO My76Strat 20:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, hence my surprise to be told that it is now politically incorrect to refer to actresses as such. Please copy your comments to the WP:Actors discussion as at the end of this a decision will be made whether or not to update femal actor articles and remove the term "actress".♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Camelbinky, I agree 100% that the Screen Actors Guild is the "official representative" of actors and that "there is a no more accurate or definitive source for the names than SAG". Therefore, please note that the opening sentence of the SAG mission statement is as follows: "Screen Actors Guild is the nation’s largest labor union representing working actors;" no mention of actresses although SAG counts many female members. Further, Screen Actors Guild Awards are presented to male actors and female actors, not actresses. All modern dictionary definitions define "actor" as a male or female member of the profession and there are dictionary definitions that call "actress" outdated and point out that "actor" should be used. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 20:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The SAG is notorious though for being politically correct. As being the "nation’s largest labor union representing working actors" they have to try to met the demands of all actors and try to be as a fair as possible. If there are quite a number of actresses like Helen Mirren etc who dislike the term "actress" then of course they have to look into it and speak in a way so not as to offend anybody. One wonders though how long it will be before

Personal perceptions don't mean much. You think it's wrong to call Helen Mirren a female actor and I think it's wrong to call Darko Miličić a basketball player but what can you do. And actor is not a masculine word, dictionaries don't define it as such. It is the title of a profession into which women weren't allowed at all until the late 16th century and then they were only allowed in an inferior role and the word "actress" was coined at that time to differentiate them from full-fledged male actors. Occasionally, if an actress proved herself as good as a male actor, she was declared an actor herself and no longer an actress. It is from this original practice of assigning labels of inferiority to female members of the profession that the sense of inequality still arises today. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 21:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

We don't call a female Doctor a "Doctress". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

But we do call a female parent "mother" and a male parent "father". So what's your point? As I recall Misplaced Pages is not about spreading or creating concepts or correcting the public. It is about reporting how the world IS, not how it should be.Camelbinky (talk) 21:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Words "mother" and "father" may be required for "clarity and precision" as per WP:MOS#Gender-neutral language but actor and actress aren't necessarily the same. And doctress actually used to be real word with a dictionary definition and common usage but was phased out over time, not unlike poetess, songstress etc; it was just no longer necessary. New words gain usage when they become needed and existing words become obsolete when they're no longer necessary to describe something for which a perfectly correct word already exists. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 23:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Feminism aside, common practice in English, like all Germanic languages and most non-Germanic as well (such as Arabic and Hebrew and Spanish) is for the masculine to be the gender neutral form. So actor is the word if refering to a group of mixed males and females and is the correct word for use for a generic "may be a male or a female but no clarification". It is only recent with the feminism movement in the English-speaking world and political correctness that we are forced now-a-days to use the grammatically awkward "he/she" every time we dont know the gender of someone and to consider words like "congresmen" as being gender specific when they were never intended to be so, in fact I find "congressmen and women" more offensive as a phrase than just "congressmen" because you are leaving out the word congress from their side. I was not aware that SAG uses "female actor" I was surprised, the Academy does use actress, but I guess if SAG uses female actor then I must support that wording, even though I personally disagree with their doing so.Camelbinky (talk) 02:39, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment: The British use actor for male and female (Judi Dench is an actor), Americans use actor and actress (Judi Dench is a actress). There's no need for any Americans to insult the British by claiming this is political correctness gone mad or to imply SAG is an international organization which sets international customs and style guides. There's also no need for anyone British to insist on calling an American an actor instead of an actress. Two countries separated by a common language and all that. Is mutual respect too much to ask for? 75.59.207.233 (talk) 16:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's any intent for inter-continental disrespect with this debate. The difference in opinion between editors involved applies across the board of the English language world. Same arguments exist on both sides of the Atlantic and I think it's best to use the same term (actor or actress, I will respect the consensus either way) for everyone to whom it may apply, ie a female thespian regardless of her geographical location. Big Bird (talk • contribs)

I disagree ip. I'm very British and I always refer to female actors as actresses, so does my mother, my father and most do in the media too. If it is dying out as a word, it most certainly is still in good health and will continue living.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

• I think this is an easy decision, due to "Once notable, always notable". The name should be both, as "Category:Actresses" with redirect "Category:Female actors" and link an article to either depending on self-identified titles (in perhaps 2 multiple independent sources). If a female impersonator self-identifies as an "actress" than that should be enough, where the category-page text clarifies how the entries are self-identified with the category title (in WP:RS's). Having 200 categories for "female actors" and redirects as "actresses" will not "ruin" WP's performance. This is clear case of WP:NOTCENSORED, because editors cannot ban use of the long-known word "actresses". -Wikid77 05:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

  Nobody is trying to ban a word rather we're trying to use the most correct one available, not unlike the way we use "film" instead of "movie". Big Bird (talk • contribs) 08:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Sean Hoare

I started Sean Hoare based on the fact I believe him to be notable in his own right based on his past achievements as a journalist. Yet it is proposed to be merged based on "ONEVENT". Input here is required to decide whether to keep or merge.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:13, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I started Glenn Mulcaire and eventually came to the conclusion that there isn't enough information about him to create a real biography. I haven't looked into this one yet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes that looks a very similar case, although there appears to be a little more info in this article. Perhaps more information will become available on this Hoare guy in the coming days. I definitely think they are notable in their own right as journalists, in my view long-time journalists who write for the top newspapers in the UK or US and any other country should be notable enough. Often it takes a WP:ONEEVENT and WP:RECENTISM to identify these individuals in the same way often events such as natural disasters often identify missing articles on notable villages, politicians and organizations. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:42, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Just read a flash news report about Mulcaire, apparently the Murdochs have admitted that News of the World is still paying his legal fees. When somebody is the centre of world media attention it is difficult to ignore it. I'm against a lot of WP:ONEEVENT biographies and feel that they are often best summarized in the article on the event but sometimes they are notable for their profession and qualify for a biography, especially if reliable sources beyond news turn up the goods.. As I said I think we should have articles on journalists for such top newspapers as this regardless of events. The difficulty I've found is finding reliable sources and much biographical info about them. One missing I know of is Joy Gould Boyum,a notable US film critic and professor of English, appears in the Clint Eastwood article. If they are mentioned in multiple books that's usually very positive... ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The Shafta award bit sounds like it makes this a BLP2E, at least. But there's something very mysterious about it. It is something of a joke or nasty award apparently given for Hoare's article about the Beckhams buying a house on an island not panning out in 2006. There's an apparently unrelated porno SHAFTA Award started in 2010 that gets a lot more hits on Google, but that's probably just because the interwebs are full of wankers. :) I'd expect some people from previous conversations to strongly object to this with rosy red BLP glasses, but since it's a negative article about a Murdoch whistleblower, perhaps they'll be all for it... Wnt (talk) 18:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Television X's version of the BAFTAs.. Well to claim to keep it based on the fact he won a Shafta is um pretty weak... The non x-rated verison for newspapers is sort of a razzie for lame newspaper story. Haa I like that one, the "Michael Fish award for worst prediction", that's a classic. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

• Need an objective formula to measure notability: I have been thinking of creating an "objective" mathematical formula to estimate levels of notability, reaching from WP:BLP1E into "WP:Individual notability" based on a checklist of criteria. When someone is called a "whistleblower" then I would rank that aspect very high, as indicating a separate notable "occupation" or distinctive "major role in a notable event". We have had similar notability debates about UN officials, because they have only negotiated peace agreements to avoid just one nuclear conflict (but probably constitutes a notable life, alongside playing association football for money; isn't nuclear warfare a kind of serious sport, where the UN has a major team roster? ...role: "nuclear goalie" to prevent a hit?). Anyway, a formula to estimate notability could correct for such absurd differences in judging notability. -Wikid77 06:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

You realise, of course, that your criteria are entirely subjective. The fact you rate "whistleblower" as highly notable is just your opinion, and there could be instances where the word whistleblower means little (e.g. stories in a local paper), a single title does not correlate to a major role in a notable event. Any formula would be based on subjective rules Jebus989 06:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea but you'd have to be strict and avoid subjective content. The way I see it there is a difference between a WP:BLP1E biography in which the individual has done nothing of consequence in their life and is notable for nothing more than causing an incident or accusation and an event which brings a biographical subject to light, who, whilst perhaps being most famous for that event, has a previous career which meets notability requirements in its own right. For instance many articles on current affairs, from the Middle eastern protests to earthquakes and other disasters identify many notable individuals such as cabinet members in "obscure" countries or notable officials which can be started from the event. It sometimes takes such an event to identify such people. We all know how poorly developed parts of wikipedia have been before certain events, like the Haiti earthquake for instance. And as a result related content developed massively.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I say this not in an moody way... but. The thing that annoys me is that when I ask a polite question of those arguing that subject is notable outside of one event it seems to get ignored - in favour of you all arguing with each other :S At the end of the day, you have to support assertions of notability with sources - too many AFD's or other forms of discussion descend into "me too" quotations of policy without any substance, and the closures don't even begin to question the arguments being made (both in support and opposition). So little care is taken in !voting. In this case I'd argue that any RS about the individual dating from the last week or so (since his death) sits squarely in BLP1E territory. I think we definitely need sources dating from before the recent furore to establish that he was actually separately notable for these prior things. Whilst there are sources dating from before this year, none of them have any substance. There are many hundreds of tabloid journalists, quite a few of whom have won "shafta's" and other unmentioned awards. Absolutely none of them have sourcing that exists. It is definitely not tenable to say "well these sources dating from today also mention things he did in the past". If they weren't raised in any detail at the time, well, their not significant coverage outside of that one event (as we ask for) - this example is a classic combination of NOTNEWS and ONEEVENT

@Wikid77; we do have an objective assessment - we require significant coverage in in dependant reliable sources relating to more than one event in an individuals life. I would definitely be interested to see a tool for weighting the coverage of an individual on such a scale (though it would be an epic undertaking to obtain and parse the information in a meaningful way, as I hope it would not simply look at Google News; a form of sourcing which tends to have the lowest of weight). However, proposing that "whistleblowers" have a specific extra weight in such a scheme is exactly the problem you'd be hoping to address :S It's a subjective judgement that Whistleblowers are inherently notable... Certainly, I will be interested to see what you come up with. --Errant 19:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Marcus Bachmann

See also: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Marcus Bachmann

Marcus Bachmann has become a magnet for mostly negative material about the subject. As of 10:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC) there are currently 19 sources in the article, which are mostly about the criticism his clinic has received. Aside from a brief mention about his early life in one AP article, there are virtually no biographical sources on the subject beside his own personal web page. Looking through the paid news abstracts, prior to the controversy over his wife's political beliefs and his business practice, I can find no sources about the subject, except for a letter to an editor he wrote a long time ago. This is someone who has attempted to stay out of the news for a very long time. Granted, the spotlight is on him because he is the husband of Michele Bachmann, but the current biography article reads like an attack on his religion, his business, and his political beliefs. Viriditas (talk) 10:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

What i'm drawing from this is, if you have an AfD that isn't going your way, take it over to Jimbo's talk page, because if you can get him to agree with you, then you can immediately close it on your side of the discussion. If you had presented this in a neutral manner, just asking him to look at the discussion and come up with his own opinion, that would be one thing, but you're trying to actively sway him to one side before he has even looked at the discussion. Silverseren 11:11, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I did not ask Jimbo to vote on the AfD, nor did I vote delete, nor were my comments about the AfD, so your allegations are entirely without merit. Viriditas (talk) 11:16, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course you're not asking him to vote, you're asking for his opinion, but doing so in a non-neutral manner. If you had just said "There is currently an AfD going on about Marcus Bachmann, Michele Bachmann's husband. What is your opinion about the article?" that would have been completely fine. But, instead, you asked him in a paragraph that also states a slew of reasons that you are correct and the other side is wrong. And you voted redirect, which requires the same arguments as delete would. Silverseren 11:21, 20 July 2011 (UTC)