Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:22, 31 July 2011

Welcome to my talk page, where you are welcome to leave a message at the bottom of this page for any reason at all and I will attempt to respond ASAP. I try to remember to respond on your talk page, and I mostly do, but if you leave a message here and for some reason i'm not replying, perhaps check back here from time to time :-)

My edit count. Backup if not working. 2,650 watchlist articles and counting.

There is no cabal. Mmmm, cabal....

Your userpage

I've been looking through your userpage and have a few concerns. Although the guidelines and policies regarding content in userpages are relatively lax, your userpage seems to be going a bit far. My main concern is regarding WP:What Misplaced Pages is not. Two of these apply to your page:

• WP:NOTADVOCATE:

1. Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, religious, sports-related, or otherwise. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. See Misplaced Pages:Advocacy.
2. Opinion pieces. Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics, may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (for example, passionately advocate their pet point of view), Misplaced Pages is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced to put entries, especially for current events, in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages authors should strive to write articles that will not quickly become obsolete. However, Misplaced Pages's sister project Wikinews allows commentaries on its articles.
3. Scandal mongering, something "heard through the grapevine" or gossip. Articles and content about living people are required to meet an especially high standard, as they may otherwise be libellous or infringe the subjects' right to privacy. Articles should not be written purely to attack the reputation of another person.

• WP:NOTBLOG:

1. Personal web pages. Wikipedians have their own user pages, but they may be used only to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. If you are looking to make a personal webpage or blog or to post your résumé, please make use of one of the many free providers on the Internet or any hosting included with your Internet account. The focus of user pages should not be social networking, or amusement, but rather providing a foundation for effective collaboration. Humorous pages that refer to Misplaced Pages in some way may be created in an appropriate namespace, however.

You're offering some very strong opinions. For what purpose? The page does little other than make other editors uncomfortable collaborating with you. Furthermore, some of the opinions ("Fatty O'Farrell", "They run the political show with an IQ of less than 0.", "Pure politics... and Turnbull has no balls if he won't fight for what he believes in.", etc.) are attacks, or at the very least, violations of the BLP policy. I suggest that you add a {{db-userreq}} to remove the page and its history, and if you like, recreate the page with content that is more appropriate for Misplaced Pages. If you decide not to do so, consider this your notification that I will begin a MfD discussion. – GorillaWarfare 14:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Timeshift, I'd like to echo the sentiments above. I understand your justification for using your userpage this way ("NPOV is for articles, bias is better declared"), and to some extent I'm sure it has served that function. However, especially over the last 12 months, I feel you've begun to cross a line. As GorillaWarfare points out, this has found you in violation of our personal attacks and BLP policies. Furthermore, your userpage is making things more difficult with new editors to the Australian Politics Wikiproject, for whom your userpage is often their first interaction with the WikiProject. For them, it doesn't look like a simple declaration of bias, it looks like a flagrant disregard for the neutrality necessary for an encyclopaedia, and it makes them instantly combative when dealing with you specifically, and with the project more broadly. I honestly believe that it would be in the best interests of the WikiProject for you to replace your page with a simple declaration of your biases, more akin to what it was like in your first years of editing.

I know you've managed to deflect concerns about your userpage in the past, Timeshift, but I'm afraid it'll be best for everyone if you take GorillaWarfare's advice now, rather than taking this to an MfD. Your userpage will certainly be deleted if we head down that road, and I for one don't want to see an editor who has done so much good for this part of Misplaced Pages be dragged before a broader forum that will have no qualms digging in with gutso.  -- Lear's Fool 02:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Shifty, why not simply start a blog and link it from your user page? There are plenty of options - wordpress, blogger, typepad etc. That gives you and us the freedom to comment on the auspol issues of the day without disrupting the project. --Surturz (talk) 03:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I too agree that the userpage is a little out of hand. Echoing sentiments above. --Merbabu (talk) 03:20, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe i've addressed the BLP concerns I consider to hold some validity (most of GW's initial post refers to articles, not userpages). Let's take a step back and look... this only came about as a result of Enidblyton. The last person to complain about my userpage was a few years ago, and i'm not sure if i'm correct but I seem to recall some sort of sock activity with that too. TimBracks13 was not a new user and their concerns were not genuine. If anyone has further concerns over my userpage, i'm happy to discuss them. But I won't remove my opinions from my userpage, we've been through this before, my page containing my views is in itself not a violation. Timeshift (talk) 05:54, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

It's worth noting that editors are allowed, within reason, to use their user page to express their personal views as long as it's not judged to be offensive to an identifiable person/people or being explicitly used to recruit others. I've seen ultra right wing and borderline Nazi user pages survive MfDs in the past, for instance (though views on this kind of thing seem to be - rightly in my view - hardening). Editors are generally given a lot of latitude with what they use their user page for, though they do need to be aware that its content will guide other editors' views of them. Nick-D (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Thankyou muchly. Timeshift (talk) 08:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

@Nick: Sure, but it has a particular effect on editors new to the project. When I started editing 18 months ago and stumbled upon Timeshift's userpage, it had a couple of comments, some links to interesting articles that were generally favourable to the left, and a prominent userbox explaining that the purpose of all this was to disclose bias. These days, it's become significantly more partisan and blog-like. New editors (not just Enid) can see it as being aggressive and hostile, and I don't think that helps anyone. I'd be satisfied with a more prominent indication of the purpose of the page, and a toning down of the partisan nature of the commentary.  -- Lear's Fool 08:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the potential BLP violations. If you have a current concern with aspects of the page, raise it please. If it's about the page in general, sorry, it sounds like a moral rather than a wiki guideline standpoint. Timeshift (talk) 09:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

You could always create a blog and add {{User blogger}} to your userpage, that way you can say what ever you want without worrying about Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Bidgee (talk) 09:21, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't want a blog. And nobody has pointed out how the current state of my userpage breaks guidelines. If it's the whole userpage, then in itself it is not a violation of wikipedia guidelines. Timeshift (talk) 09:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I actually have pointed out how it breaks guidelines, in my original post. Although you have removed some of the libelous information, all of the problems mentioned in WP:NOT still remain. Since you seem to be unwilling to delete, I'm going to go ahead and start the MfD discussion. – GorillaWarfare 20:34, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

The discussion can be found at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9. – GorillaWarfare 20:52, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I have already addressed the BLP vios and have made it clear that i'm happy to address other BLP vios if brought up. I do not believe my userpage is something to be voted upon and potentially its contents removed from me. Ive been putting my views and thoughts there for years, people don't have to read my userpage if they don't want to. It's not an article. To quote the admin on this talk page: "It's worth noting that editors are allowed, within reason, to use their user page to express their personal views as long as it's not judged to be offensive to an identifiable person/people or being explicitly used to recruit others. I've seen ultra right wing and borderline Nazi user pages survive MfDs in the past, for instance (though views on this kind of thing seem to be - rightly in my view - hardening). Editors are generally given a lot of latitude with what they use their user page for, though they do need to be aware that its content will guide other editors' views of them." Timeshift (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Baleeted

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too. - Voltaire

What a joke. Commiserations. Perhaps you could go down the path of Cut & paste - plopping incongruous quotes next to each other. --Surturz (talk) 04:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is pretty dumb. I hope that you don't model your new user page on The Australian though! Nick-D (talk) 08:50, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Surturz, I'd say glass houses and stones. Refer User:Surturz#Carnival_of_Crap & WP:NPA. --Merbabu (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I've deleted the relevant links, since you asked so nicely. --Surturz (talk) 00:36, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Good move. :-) --Merbabu (talk) 01:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2011 June 5#User:Timeshift9

As you participated in Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9, you may be interested in Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2011 June 5#User:Timeshift9. T. Canens (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

sorry to see you go. but take heart, as one editor said "the irony is that if I were an Australian and the userpage was a blog, I'd probably be watching it, as I often agreed with Timeshift's opinions" therefore, stop casting pearls before swine, make a weekly blog, network, put up ads, make money. have pity on the deleters, they admire the creators. Slowking4 (talk) 17:12, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Your userpage (again)

Hey Timeshift, it's great to see your name on my watchlist again, and I'm sure others will agree. I'm afraid you may have to accept that you will no longer be able to use your userpage in the same way as you did previously. I don't think it would be appropriate to provide you a copy of the last revision with an eye to you restoring the content on your userpage, as this would flout the decision made at the MfD and the resultant Deletion Review. Such a restoration may well be eligible for a G4 speedy deletion. If I were you, I would simply replace your userpage with a link to a blogspot blog or something. I would be more than happy to provide you with previous revisions for use in an external blog. Otherwise, you may have to go for a second deletion review, although I imagine that would be unsuccessful.  -- Lear's Fool 05:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

That's not really acceptable. A lot of the issue was that there were potential BLP violations available in the userpage history. I am certainly allowed to have some opinion on my userpage. I need to know what level that is. Timeshift (talk) 05:25, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

this archive is from 2008, but probably not much help. This is now an issue of admin control, not content. I'd wait a few months until the pricks lose interest. Fight the power! Once united, we can never be defeated! Smash the State! Solidarity forever! :-) --Surturz (talk) 15:22, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Images listed for deletion

Some files that you uploaded or altered, had been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion/2011 July 20. Take a look to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in why is it going to be deleted. The files are:

• File:Dunstan1970caucus.JPG
• File:UnfinishedPK.jpg
• File:RecollectionsPK.jpg
• File:M596285.jpg
• File:MohamedHaneef.jpg
• File:Hanna1.jpg
• File:JohnHowardCrop.JPG
• File:KevinRudd3Copy.jpg
• File:John Howard May 2006 crop.jpg
• File:Don Steele.JPG
• File:Terry Roberts.jpg
• File:Sametro02.jpg
• File:Sastate06.jpg
• File:Sametro06.jpg
• File:Sastate02.jpg
• File:Metro07.PNG
• File:Map7-2004.gif
• File:Map8-2004.gif
• File:BASantamaria.jpg

Thank you, --damiens.rf 16:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Your userpage

Heyo again, Timeshift. Someone just notified me that you again have bloggy content on your userpage. What gives? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

What gives is that nobody has been willing to state exactly how much is too much. Users are given a longer leash with their userpage and can contain thoughts and opinions. The stickler that people pointed out in the last deletion is that BLP vios were in the edit history. It is no longer. Rather than come down on me like a ton of bricks, can you constructively assist? I have had a couple of questions raised in the past over my userpage, and up until the recent episodes with the latest to be reported to you by what appears to be a sockpuppet, it has been again and again deemed ok. I would appreciate it if we could have a sensible productive discussion. Timeshift (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not trying to "come down on you like a ton of bricks". I'm simply asking what your reasoning is. My real question here is why you feel the need to have this content on your userpage at all. Most of us get by with no issue by having short autobiographical/Wikipedia-related content on our userpages, and hosting our political opinions, if we like, on external blog sites that are intended for this purpose. Why are you so keen on using Misplaced Pages for this? – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:25, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Because I want my views expressed on the userpage... "This user believes that only articles need reflect a NPOV, and that displaying political, religious, or other beliefs on user and talk pages should be encouraged. Bias is better declared". I don't want to start a blog, i'm much happier having only one login and can edit, add or cut the static userpage. It's a good design and i'm happy with it. Timeshift (talk) 22:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That userbox to me means that a user can make general statements about his or her political beliefs. If there's something that might come up when they're editing, such as a strong left-wing editor editing right-wing pages, etc., it's good to state this so people know what to check. I see your userpage as much too specific to actually provide any declared bias. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Again I ask, where is the line? I have had chunks of my personal opinion on there before, and have never been told to outright remove it. Can I ask, what is the harm in leaving it there? Timeshift (talk) 23:50, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That's the thing: I don't know where the line is. That's why I started this discussion with you, and perhaps it would be worth starting a discussion elsewhere with more people involved. I'm not trying to harangue you here, I just am not sure it's appropriate. The content in your userpage could easily be interpreted to be in violation of the two bits of policy I mentioned before. However, I recognize that this kind of thing has also been allowed to a degree in the past. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

There are many, many other userpages on Misplaced Pages containing significantly more information than that on people's beliefs on a range of topics, including that of at least one serving arbitrator and numerous administrators. I'm aware that they're not allowed on some other WM projects and on some other language WP's, but one would need a widespread RFC linked to watchlists to decide what the policy should be, rather than simply going after one particular editor. Orderinchaos 02:08, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Huh? You open with a rather demanding "What gives?" and then say you just want a discussion and have no idea where the line is. If you don't want to "harangue" him and admit you don't know what the boundaries are, aren't you better just to leave it alone? Personally, I think it's a bit of a silly user page, but there's already been so much unnecessary disruption, distress, and time and effort wasting on this thing, why expend more? Move along already. --Merbabu (talk) 00:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

As a fellow admin, I strongly believe that User:GorillaWarfare has overstepped the boundaries into harassment of this user a long time ago. The fact they are so willing to play into an outside political campaign against him being waged with sockpuppets really says where it's at right now. Orderinchaos 01:58, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I think that analysis is extremely unfair. The fact that this particular incarnation of the concerns about Timeshift's userpage was kicked of by Enidblyton11 is unfortunate, but many uninvolved editors (including admins) have expressed a belief that the way his userpage is used is inappropriate. At the very least, Timeshift has given the appearance of completely ignoring the consensus at the MfD, I don't think it constitutes harassment to ask for an explanation.  -- Lear's Fool 03:37, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

As far as i can see, there was no consensus. Rather, there was a range of opinions given, and a unilateral decision made to delete. But that's beside the point - what is important and regrettable, a once prolific editor continues to be hounded on his return, and other editors are spending way too much time on the matter. IMO, some reevaluation of project perspective and allocation of editor's time is needed. --Merbabu (talk) 03:50, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't see my concern as inappropriate. Timeshift's userpage was very recently deleted for this same reason by an MfD at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9. The deletion was subsequently reviewed and endorsed at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2011 June 5. The page was recreated with similar content (though minus all of the blatant BLP issues, which is good) very soon after. I don't see following up on this as harassment at all. I'm not trying to "go after" Timeshift in any way.

Orderinchaos, I'm not trying to play into some sockpuppetry campaign. I've explained on my user talk that I was unfamiliar with the sockmaster. Accusing me to be a sockmaster myself, however, seems to be taking things a bit far.

Merbabu, does anybody know where the boundaries are? It seems disruptive to me to recreate a page with similar content to the page that was just deleted at MfD.

Finally, I'm just letting everyone here know that I will be out of town for a few days, and apologize for any delays in responding to this discussion. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:51, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Merbabu, you should have brought up your views that there was no consensus to delete at the DRV. Now that the discussion was closed as delete and then subsequently endorsed, that seems like a funny argument to make. Feel free to bring it back to DRV for a third round, if you like, but until then I don't think your interpretation holds much weight. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Then clearly we have very different opinions on consensus, and I might add different views on what is disruptive. Given your involvement with this issue, it strikes me that you would be better served and look better if you now stepped back from the matter (maybe referring it to another page) rather than once again pushing the issue. As I said, this all seems like warped perspectives and interpretation of project objectives. --Merbabu (talk) 04:04, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I can bring the issue to ANI if you think it would be more productive to do so. Discussing this issue with Timeshift seemed like the appropriate first step to me. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:17, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

My primary point was to suggest that it isn't productive to continue this matter in any manner. If you don't agree with this, then my secondary point is to suggest that you hand over to others should you, regrettably, wish to see the campaign continue. --Merbabu (talk) 06:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Why can't we all just move on? Timeshift (talk) 11:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. We're dealing with a malicious sockpuppeting troll, and an enabling admin with a grudge who can't let it go. I've already let the latter know that any further conduct along this line will be referred to ArbCom. Orderinchaos 12:11, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

To Arbcom? Aren't we being a bit dramatic here when other forms of dispute resolution have not been tried? Ed  20:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC)