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Notes

{{subst:User:Alison/c}} {{subst:W-screen}} Misplaced Pages:SPI/CLERK

Note to self: Research Laura Muntz Lyall (or persuade one of the Riggrs to do so), consider writing an article about the Forster Family Dollhouse in the Canadian Museum of Civilization. Some day. December maybe, barring any three ring circuses.

Other note to self re "emergency" desysops:

• Spencer195, Marskell, Cool3 - Level 1
• Hemanshu - committee motion, mischaracterized as "emergency desysop" on , desysop occurred minutes before the motion passed.
• Sade - to check "involuntary per arbcom", Feb 09
• RickK/Zoe - July 08. Long dormant admin accounts, shared compromised password.
• Eye of the Mind - Dec 07. Main page deletion.
• Shreshth91 - done at request of single arbitrator, Aug 07.
• Vancouverguy - Jun 07. Long dorman admin account, apparent compromise.
• Yanksox - Mar 07 - Jimbo desysop, confirmed by Arbcom in full case (DB deletion wheel war)
• Robdurbar - Apr 07 - mass blocking, self unblocking, deletion. Wonderfool.
• Husnock - Dec 06. Admitted shared password, desysop confirmed by Arbcom in full case.

Messages below please

Request

Hi Risker, I've just dumped a bunch of diffs at the AN\I thread where Maunus requests a block review. My request to you is to have a look at the diffs and I can provide many many more, but haven't the time at the moment (am on a lunch break!). Frankly the situation with Alarbus has become intolerable to me, to the point that I considered leaving and asked Casliber to delete my page. I changed my mind, restored the page and created an article. Within 24 hours the disruption began again. I believe my contribs are being watched and it feels as though I'm being hounded. This is exactly the type of behavior that makes women editors not want to edit here, and until this situation is resolved I'll probably be gone. Thanks. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Within five minutes of posting diffs that took my lunchtime to gather, Alarbus has been unblocked. Apparently the diffs are irrelevant. You've lost Maunus, who is a very good content contributor and a fair admin, and you've lost me. All I do is write. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Hi Truthkeeper. It strikes me that this may be more of a "once bitten, twice shy" situation than anything else. You're upset that an IP edited the same template as Modernist did to include your new article. You've also had a negative encounter with Alarbus, who is also known to edit templates. I can understand your instinctive desire to connect these two events, but I'm afraid there is no tangible reason to do so. The IP editor was cleaning up the template to bring it into standard, and did not in any way change anything that Modernist added. Alarbus had nothing to do with that edit. In other words, it appears that Alarbus was actually doing as told (i.e., not to hound you) and you were doing your usual good work, and a completely separate editor made an entirely proper change to a template you're very familiar with. I am not certain I understand entirely why you would feel hounded if another editor improves a template you're watching; would you respond the same way if someone improved sentence structure or added a reference to an article you have written? Based on your previous interactions with Alarbus, I can understand you don't want anything to do with him, but I'm concerned that anyone who makes even perfectly reasonable changes to something that you've edited or are aware has been edited will be on the receiving end of blocks and anger. This is not a positive situation for anyone, yourself included.

  It's clear from Maunus' initial report to ANI that he had blocked the IP as a sock of Alarbus, but review of the block has indicated that Maunus' assumption, valid as it may have been, has proved incorrect. It's alright to make an occasional error, and the high quality of Maunus' editorial and administrator work means he's qualified to act first and follow up later in situations like this. I don't think his initial block was completely off-base; he presented grounds for it that were acceptable. However, subsequent information showed that his usually-reliable instincts were off on this one occasion. Given the situation, the appropriate thing to do is lift the blocks on both accounts, since they didn't meet the standard. While I appreciate the diffs you pulled up, the worst I can say on most of them is that some edits were repeated before discussion went to the talk page. In fact, one of the examples you give as "edit warring" is actually an unbroken series of edits improving the template.

  I hope you'll return to editing. At the same time, I hope you'll also consider what it would feel like to be the editor who'd already left the topic area and then got blindsided by a block because someone else had edited a related page. Risker (talk) 18:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

No it's not a template I watch at all. I was completely unaware of what happened until I saw Modernist's help request posted on pages that I watchlist. At any rate, that you think Alarbus' behavior toward me has been acceptable is all I need to know. Thanks for the response. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Holy cow, Truthkeeper, I don't know where you came up with that. I've not even addressed Alarbus' behaviour toward you except to say that I understand that it would have an impact on how you perceived others' edits. Don't put words in my mouth, please, particularly when they're untrue. Risker (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps re-reading what you've written above will help you to understand. Much of it is incorrect and clearly the diffs I spent time providing showing underlying behavioral issues have no relevance, which, yes, in my mind indicates that the behavior must be considered acceptable. Anyway, thanks for the response. I'll be on my way. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I get that you've had a bad experience with Alarbus (and I largely agree with you about the initiating issue, which was templated references). I can certainly understand that that bad experience has coloured your view of the actions of other editors; it's not optimal, but we're all human and I wouldn't fault you for it at all. I don't fault Maunus for carrying out the blocks in the first place, based on the information he had at the time. Where I'm having trouble is when the "second look" showed that the IP and Alarbus were not the same person (and in fact were working in different topic areas at pretty much the same time), a few people (yourself included) have held forth that the blocks should stand and that Alarbus should be sanctioned for actions he did not do, and the IP should be blocked for legitimate edits. The initial confrontation between you and Alarbus has already been addressed; he is staying away from you and the articles to which you contribute - which I understand would be your desired outcome. I hope that with a bit of time, you'll reconsider your retirement. That doesn't mean I'm going to support a block that was found on review to have been made in error. Risker (talk) 20:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I think we're talking about two different things. You're addressing the IP block; I'm addressing behaviour that I perceive to be aggressive and intimidating. I can provide many diffs, but not at the moment because I want to be away from here for a while. As for Alarbus staying away from articles I edit you might want to have a look at his contribution history and in particular the first places he went after being unblocked. I realize these are non-controversial edits; what I'm trying to say, and without success, is that I've been going through this on numerous pages for about three weeks. At some point, enough is enough. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Noted, and commented on Alarbus's talk page. I agree that, even assuming the best of faith, it is pretty well impossible to see editing that template immediately after being unblocked as anything but inflammatory and provocative. Risker (talk) 20:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'm taking a big sigh and trying again. I hadn't seen the entire AN/I thread as I was at work and at lunch and I didn't understand why the earlier thread and the Hemingway page were dragged into it again. As the IP is not Alarbus, then clearly the IP shouldn't be blocked. I took umbrage at the suggestion above that anyone who edits a page I edit will be on the receiving end of a block or my anger. That was a quite a surprise since I have a good working relationship with the people I collaborate with, with the exception of a sockpuppet who leaves interesting messages on my page. That said, I'll take your advice on board and take a break. I have been working very hard, which, combined with the holidays, seems to have put me unnecessarily on edge. Thanks again. Truthkeeper (talk) 01:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

rhetoric

err… I'm somewhat embarrassed to say it, but that's not rhetoric; that's the way I talk. You should hear me pontificate after a couple of beers. Sorry… --Ludwigs2 00:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

FYI

Or maybe not. Did you see the two ANI threads discussing an Orangemarlin block/interaction ban/ final warning, etc? This active one and the previous, archived, one. No consensus yet, at least not a consensus to block right now. I'm pretty sure not. I don't see any summary, and it's all a bit.. huge. Difficult to get an overview of. Bishonen | talk 00:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC).

Thanks Bishonen. Huge is right; I've been reading it over dinner, I'll probably wind up with indigestion. I'm comfortable with the block and, to be honest, would have made it in a more timely way if I had been checking my watchlists rather than traveling at the time. At the end of my reading, I'll probably have words with Captain Occam and DSMBel as well. Risker (talk) 00:41, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the block itself. Certainly there are objective grounds for it, and while there was a consensus against an indefinite block at AN/I, I'd be the last person to argue that an admin needs to follow the whims of the first 10 people to comment in an AN/I thread (if it were re-posted, there might well be consensus for the block). On the other hand, the way this played out epitomizes everything that I detest about civility "enforcement", in particular the way it rewards professional plaintiffs and forum-shoppers. But in the end Orangemarlin is a grownup and responsible for his own actions, and I doubt this was a total shock to him. MastCell  01:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it was a surprise to him either, but it was undoubtedly encouragement for the "professional plaintiffs and forum-shoppers". Malleus Fatuorum 01:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Note to self - 10 day old diffs are ok to block if you're going to indef about it, with the "apologize and be unblocked" demand. Got it. Hipocrite (talk) 02:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not done yet. Risker (talk) 02:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Not done with what? Doing a full review of the situation? Hipocrite (talk) 02:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

My three cents - I am concerned that there was significant and obvious multi-party baiting going on, and this response is (so far) asymmetrical. I did nothing so far personally because I wanted to see if the article talk page warning I left had taken and stayed that way. It seemed so for a day-ish, but then broke down on all sides.

I personally very much don't want to reward professional plaintiffs / forum shoppers / people who bait. That has happened a lot here. You say you're not done reviewing; I trust and assume you're working on that and have those concerns in mind. If you want other relatively uninvolved admin assistance or sounding boards on those, let us and me know. If you for some reason decide there's a conflict of interest or should back out, let us and me know.

Thanks for stepping up. It was timely and regrettably became appropriate. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:28, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• Okay, almost done. Anyone who's been waiting with baited breath can look at my most recent edits/block log while I go write something up for AN/I. Risker (talk) 03:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC) And for the record: Risker (talk) 04:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Email

I sent you an email and tried to cc ArbCom at the same time, but I got a weird bounceback for at least one of the addresses. Just trying to confirm if you received my email. It's not super time-sensitive or anything. NW (Talk) 06:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems to have come through the Clerks mailing list, and I've responded to it now. It's not possible to send to two WMF mailing lists at the same time; the server treats it as spam and bounces at least one copy of it, and often all copies. Thanks for following up, though; I know these things sometimes go astray. Risker (talk) 06:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Civility

Please consider taking action on less than 10 day old incivility at "OrangeMarlin - Don't you have a GOP debate to get to? I think I hear Michele Bachmann calling your name - she might need you for something, you better hurry. If you are not going to be helpful, I suggest you leave.". I suggest an indef block until such time as the user promises to stop equating people to individuals they obviously dislike, and asking them to leave. I've got more, but let's start with that. Hipocrite (talk) 15:23, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Nice try, Hipocrite. Wouldn't have taken me long to throw in a half-dozen other links to OrangeMarlin's bad behaviour in the last 10 days, although the one selected was beyond the pale (even MastCell pointed out one on his talk page which was sufficient for an indef). Keep in mind that the block does not have a set duration; if and when OrangeMarlin is prepared to participate without making personal attacks, I'll be happy to unblock him. That may be tomorrow...or when the cows come home. The ball is in OrangeMarlin's court. Risker (talk) 15:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I am coming late to the discussion, so if there's someplace else I should be posting, please let me know. For the record though, I am in strong support of the idea of requiring disruptive editors to promise to do better before we let them back onto the project. I realize the wiki-culture has long had a pattern of, "Block for a short time, and hope they do better when they return", but I am a strong advocate of requiring the blockee to acknowledge the behavior first, before we allow them back. --Elonka 18:48, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

It's sad that in the case of established editors like OM, we need to tediously discuss whether we should warn them that they'll be facing a block for personal attacks. I give you props for stepping up and taking action while the discussion languished at ANI. Swarm 19:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

And I'm a strong advocate of the fact that you talk bollocks much of the time Elonka. Malleus Fatuorum 19:35, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Elonka, you have to make amends before you can even think about being forgiven. --Alatari (talk) 01:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Then you're also talking bollocks. It's not up to administrators, or anyone else here, to forgive. Malleus Fatuorum 01:35, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I was speaking in more poetic language. It will boil down to the users signing to and be held to the new Terms of Service. Alatari (talk) 01:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I support the requirement for OM (or any editor in this position) to explicitly acknowledge community norms. I don't see it as being about "forgiveness" so much as an empirical observation that people who have explicitly agreed to do something are ipso facto more likely to do it. Cusop Dingle (talk) 07:26, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Grovelling is not what happens on wikipedia. If Orangemarlin agrees to avoid personal attacks in the future, that is all that is needed. Mathsci (talk) 07:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

You know, this whole Orangemarlin thing is really making me rethink my approach to Misplaced Pages. OM habitually does things that make me look practically Amish by comparison (yes, I know this from experience; OM was one of the people who introduced me to the ways of Misplaced Pages), and yet so many people are willing to downplay - or even actively support - his immense truculence. Apparently I'm simply not being mean-spirited enough to gain the support and respect of the community.

Yes, that was sarcasm (which I'm only noting so I can point to it when people enter this diff into evidence against me). Misplaced Pages cracks me up sometimes… --Ludwigs2 14:21, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't you recuse as Coren did?

While you may have been less involved on en.wiki, I distinctly recall some discussions on meta where you and Coren were flaming each other over images issue. It's clear both of you have clearly stated and strongly held opinions on image filtering/censorship. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

o.O No comment on whether Risker should recuse or not, but while she and I stand pretty much on opposite sides of the whole debate about images, I don't think we ever flamed each other over it. — Coren  21:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I share Coren's o.O - my communications on meta with respect to the "images issue" were pretty much exclusively in my role as a member of the group overseeing the referendum/plebiscite process and release of results, and my interest there was in getting accurate and informative results out to the community. I'm not entirely certain what people perceive my position on images, but I've been genuinely impressed by some of the points raised by people on all sides of the debate...and there are certainly more than two sides here. Should the case be accepted (and technically, I think it is in line to be accepted within the next 24 hours depending on any subsequent voting), I'll be reading the evidence very closely here. Risker (talk) 22:28, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly my perception as well. Your participation in the process, for one, does lead people to conclude that the basis is legitimate, and the feeling I got is that you believed the image filter to be beneficial at least in principle. It may simply be an erroneous impression, but I'm not surprised that it is shared.

That said, I feel that this is a fork-worthy problem, and I've been arguing against it (and with some of the parties to the case) with some vehemence so it seemed reasonable for me to recuse. I don't remember you having participated in the debate(s) outside your implication in the logistics of the poll attempt, so unless you have a strong enough position that you'd feel prejudiced for one side or another (something you alone can tell) I can think of no reason why you'd have to recuse. — Coren  23:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I managed to find that thread, again. IMO, Coren did flame you starting at "Good job with the spin", while you kept your composure. I suppose that's one of the reason why you're still in ArbCom and he isn't. I had also confused you with another female editor (W...) who had posted a lot more messages in those filter discussions on various pages and whose messages were slightly more vehement. Please accept my apologies. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 08:40, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Office Hours

Hey Risker; another Article Feedback Tool office hours session! This is going to be immediately after we start trialing the software publicly, so it's a pretty important one. If any of you want to attend, it will be held in #wikimedia-office on Friday 16th December at 19:00 UTC. As always, if you can't attend, drop me a line and I'm happy to link you to the logs when we're done. Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Will be otherwise occupied, but have a great time! I do read the logs. Risker (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Awesome :). Need a link? I imagine a Grand High Arbitrator knows where to find them :P. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 03:14, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Re: CSRFs

Hi. I do know that most of the time it is a false positive, for example leaving the page open for too long. But if we know that there is still a possibility, it seems irresponsible... There are quite a number of them flagged as CSRF. We contacted them and most of them confirmed the vote, 5 did not respond after a week so Vituzzu decided to strike the votes. Feel free to email me or find me on IRC (nick: Bencmq but I'm logging off soon)... Ben.MQ (talk) 15:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. We discovered that certain browser configurations, including some that are relatively common, do this too. I'd suggest that if you are striking votes based on this, that you specifically and publicly state what criteria you were using in deciding which ones to strike. To be honest, if 100% of the users who responded to you said that it was indeed their vote, you might want to consider how likely it is that the 5 voters who didn't respond to you were indeed forged votes. I have to say that if you were seeing a LOT of CSRFs (more than 0.5%), you might want to contact Tim Starling regardless, because there may be something else going on here. If you're striking 5 votes because of this, that's a non-trivial technical problem that has the potential to directly affect the outcome of the election. Risker (talk) 15:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I edited the page to keep it up with the actual vote list (another scrutineer struck the vote). I am emailing them now though and I'll discuss with them again. Thank you for the info :) Ben.MQ (talk) 15:14, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Removing pending changes

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3ALog&type=stable&page=Robert_Byrd – Thanks. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations!

Congratulations on your reelection to the Committee! I'm looking forward to working along side you for the next few years. :-) Hersfold 22:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations Risker. You've done a fine job and I'm grateful for your help to ArbCom. Thanks very much. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 00:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations from me as well! You've become an integral part of the Committee over the past three years, and I look forward to continuing to work with you in the future. Kirill  01:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Heartiest congratulations at being reelected. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

• Happy to hear you'll be carrying on! Gwen Gale (talk) 01:42, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks all! I look forward to working with all of the new and returning arbitrators. I've been a little busy in the last few hours, initiating the induction process for the new arbitrators, so I'll be leaving messages for my new colleagues - and the other candidates - some time tomorrow. It's reassuring to see the level of continued community support that I was granted, and I'll do my best to live up to it. Risker (talk) 02:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations! I must say it's a well-deserved result, and on a slightly more selfish note it's also a reassurance to me that you're still on the committee. Let me know if you ever need my assistance with anything. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 16:39, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, congratulations! Sven Manguard Wha? 04:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Ditto - I'm glad to see the percentage was so high as well. Obviously the correct choice :> Doc talk 04:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks everyone! Risker (talk) 04:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Invitation to WikiWomenCamp

Hi. You do a lot of fantastic work with Misplaced Pages (especially ArbCom) and other projects. Given that, I wanted to personally invite you to attend WikiWomenCamp being held in Buenos Aires, Argentina in May 2012. This is a women's only conference, followed by a two day gender gap conference open to every one. Your experiences and knowledge base would be a great thing to add to the event. :) --LauraHale (talk) 23:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the invitation; however, I think I'll put the money toward a down payment for a new car. I'm not sure what the attraction is in Buenos Aires in winter (January, I might consider!), and I'm not a big fan of sex-restricted conferences. Indeed, I believe my experience in working collaboratively with men was a very valuable preparation for success in working on Misplaced Pages. But I do appreciate the fact that you've made this gesture, and I wish you all a lovely time. Risker (talk) 01:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

No worries. :) Completely understand and it obviously isn't for everyone. Can totally understand why you might not be interested. :) Best of luck and keep up your good work. :) --LauraHale (talk) 01:56, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• I think it's very churlish of Mrs Risker to refuse the invitation – if it's a matter of money I am more than willing to finance her trip on behalf of the women of Misplaced Pages – I feel it imperative that members of the Arbcom should be at the camp. Perhaps Mr Wales and the men could be housed in separate tents with some sort of alarm system should they try to 'explore' after lights out. I only wish I could be there too, but unfortunately I am persona non grata in the Argentine, ever since that frightful Perón woman thought I was trying to steal her boring, overweight husband back in the late 40s. I implore you Mrs Risker reconsider – just think what you will be missing. Catherine Rollbacker de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 22:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• Under the separate housing plan, who will prevent the Lady from nocturnal foraging? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• It's obvious that Mrs Risker, quite wisely, has no intention of leaving the seat of government until her new appointment has been officially announced – I would imagine it's rather like Ancient Rome with assassins and conspirators around every street corner. Mind you, the thought of Mr Wales hovering above me with his ampulla in hand and 'ceremonial' designs on my bosom would send me hotfoot to the other side of the world pretty pronto. Furthermore, Ms Georgia we European ladies are able to control our urges, although looking at those male Wikipedians who do display their images, there are unlikely to be many urges in that direction. Catherine Rollbacker de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 16:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Nice catch

Thanks for your quick work here, I was just about to revert and report it. LK (talk) 05:43, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Ping

I can add the email addresses in between cooking dinner. Dougweller (talk) 17:11, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks

I don't have an active email account, and didn't want to go down a possible dead end if didn't overlook the absence of an account. I hadn't found or read the oversight board before, and it seemed the better choice over Help or ANI. It seems a bit reactionary, but I don't have a Polyanna worldview. Dru of Id (talk) 03:54, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

My perspective

I seem to be having difficulty communicating with you. I don't necessarily think I will get you to agree with me, but I hope that I can put together a short description of my perspective so that at least you can understand me. Then, you can read back over my proposed principles and agree or disagree based on that understanding.

I don't think that religions can be evaluated in the same manner as we evaluate other material. With most material, we weight according to popularity. If 90% of scientists agree about something, it's fair for us to present that conclusion as being basically true, and the other 10% as being fringe beliefs. That doesn't hold with religion. Take the people that believe in transubstantiation, for example. This is the belief that the communion wafer and wine turns into the physical flesh and blood of Jesus Christ during the ceremony. It's clearly a minority belief: primarily Catholics, so somewhere around 10% of the world's population believes it. I could set up tests to look at people's urine after the ceremony and could probably prove that they had metabolised a cracker and some wine. The results of those tests wouldn't change a thing: people that believed would still believe, people that did not would still not, and most people would think it was incredibly rude to even conduct the experiment. If someone ever did conduct such an experiment, the results would probably not be included in our article on the topic. As a society (and as a project) we simply don't weigh the "truth" of a religion, and "verifiability" doesn't even enter into the discussion. Religions just are.

This deprives us of our normal methods of weighing objections. We can't and won't take a position that one sect is more likely to be right than another. There being more Muslims than Latter Day Saints doesn't mean that the Muslim belief that Jesus Christ was whisked off the cross prior to crucifixion and lives as a physical being in Heaven is any more or less likely to be true than the LDS belief that he returned to North America after spiritually arising to Heaven and exists today in spiritual form. The two groups object to depictions of different things for different reasons, and the objections of both groups are equally valid. We have no method of discounting one group's objections without discounting both.

That extends to all religions, great and small. The aboriginal prohibition against depicting dead people is just as valid as the Sunni objection to depicting Muhammad. If we yield on the depictions of Muhammad, it would be wrong not to also yield on the depictions of dead people. There are sects that object to depictions of unveiled women: again, just as valid as the objections to pictures of Muhammad. There are some Islamic sects that object to all depictions of people: again, just as valid as the objections to pictures of Muhammad. There's essentially no end to it. I suspect that over 90% of our imagery offends some religious group.

So there's the dilemma: there's no valid reason to yield to one religious group without yielding to them all. Yielding to them all leaves us without an encyclopedia, and yielding to one (or two, or three) leaves us with a project that has editorial policies biased in favor of certain religious groups. Both alternatives are unacceptable. The only approach that I think is acceptable is the one I champion: ignore all religious offense when making editorial decisions.

Like I said, I don't necessarily think you will agree with me, but I do think it's important that you understand me.—Kww(talk) 04:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Lost Houses

Could you please undelete this category per my comments here . The central and explanatory page of this category is Destruction of country houses in 20th-century Britain it explains the category which was built around it. It is unaceptable that categories can be deleted by Admins with no word, understanding or even a polite mention to their creator who in this instance clearly knew better then those few commentating. You are keen to talk of civility perhaps genuine, basic good manners from Admins would be a very good start. You might also like to check out the nominator User:CircleOfWillis. Thank you. Giacomo Returned 13:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

It so happens that I am one of the "few commentating", although I had this talk page on my watchlist for other reasons. I wonder why GR is so sure that he "clearly knew better" than me? Cusop Dingle (talk) 17:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:POLA

Since you're much more knowledgeable about that than myself, you could certainly improve it. There's a discussion on Jimbo's talk page at the origin of that and another one on WP:AN. Best wishes for the New Year! ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 23:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Request for Comments on Misplaced Pages:Representation

Hi there! My name is Whenaxis, I noticed that you are on the Arbitration Committee. I created a policy proposal called Misplaced Pages:Representation. I think that this policy would help the Arbitration Committee as well as the Mediation Committee because the goal of this proposed policy is to decrease the amount of time wasted when an unfamiliar editor files a Arbitration or Mediation Committee when other forms of Dispute Resolution have not yet been sought. For example, an editor may come to the Arbitration Committee requesting formal mediation when other dispute resolution areas have not been utilised such as third opinions or request for comments. A representative works much like a legal aid - there to help you for free and:

• File a formal mediation case or an arbitration case on your behalf
• Make statements and submit evidence at the case page on your behalf
• Guide you through the expansive and sometimes complex policies and procedures of Misplaced Pages

This proposed idea can also help the editor seeking help because it can alleviate the stress and anxiety from dispute resolution because mediation and arbitration can be intimidating for those who are unfamiliar.

I would highly appreciate your comments on this proposal at: Misplaced Pages talk:Representation. Cheers and Happy New Year - Whenaxis about talk contribs 22:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Friendly notification regarding this week's Signpost

Hello. This is an automated message to tell you that, as it stands, you will shortly be mentioned in this week's 'Arbitration Report' (link). The report aims to inform The Signpost's many readers about the activities of the Arbitration Committee in a non-partisan manner. Please review the article, and, if you have any concerns, feel free to leave them in the Comments section directly below the main body of text, where they will be read by a member of the editorial team. Please only edit the article yourself in the case of grievous factual errors (making sure to note such changes in the comments section), as well as refraining from edit-warring or other uncivil behaviour on project pages generally. Thank you. On behalf of The Signpost's editorial team, LivingBot (talk) 00:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool - notes and office hours

Hey guys! Another month, another newsletter.

First off - the first bits of AFT5 are now deployed. As of early last week, the various different designs are deployed on 0.1 percent of articles, for a certain "bucket" of randomly-assigned readers. With the data flooding in from these, we were able to generate a big pool of comments for editors to categorise as "useful" or "not useful". This information will be used to work out which form is the "best" form, producing the most useful feedback and the least junk. Hopefully we'll have the data for you by the end of the week; I can't thank the editors who volunteered to hand-code enough; we wouldn't be where we are now without you.

All this useful information means we can move on to finalising the tool, and so we're holding an extra-important office hours session on Friday, 6th January at 19:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office. If you can't make it, drop me a note and I'll be happy to provide logs so you can see what went on - if you can make it, but will turn up late, bear in mind that I'll be hanging around until 23:00 UTC to deal with latecomers :).

Things we'll be discussing include:

• The design of the feedback page, which will display all the feedback gathered through whichever form comes out on top.
• An expansion of the pool of articles which have AFT5 displayed, from 0.1 percent to 0.3 (which is what we were going to do initially anyway)
• An upcoming Request for Comment that will cover (amongst other things) who can access various features in the tool, such as the "hide" button.

If you can't make it to the session, all this stuff will be displayed on the talkpage soon after, so no worries ;). Hope to see you all there! Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 04:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Oversight issue, I think

Hi Risker, I notice you've been posting so I'm hoping you can see this quickly. I'd like to draw your attention to this section: User talk:John#Help regarding User:Gregory Goble please. Gregory Goble has been posting personal information (address, phone number, email address) on several pages, and has now posted a long list of email addresses of American academics. I thought this could use the attention of a oversighter. Thanks, EdChem (talk) 06:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

As it turns out, I was still online so saw your message, EdChem, and I've addressed the situation. If you find similar issues, you can also go to User:Oversight and click "email this user", which sends an email to the Oversight OTRS queue and ensures that the first available oversighter will be in a position to address the problem edits. Thanks very much for letting me know; I suspect that some sort of administrative action will be required with that user. Risker (talk) 06:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for responding quickly, Risker. FYI... User talk:Gregory Goble#January 2012. Regards, EdChem (talk) 06:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Good to see. Don't hesitate to request arbitration enforcement if you or the other editors of the article find that the existing general sanctions need to be activated. Best, Risker (talk) 06:57, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the AE suggestion, GG has already posted that he did nothing wrong so AE may become necessary. I've had a look at the pages on discretionary sanctions and AE procedures and they reminded me of the requirement for a warning / notification about the relevant case. I am unsure, however, whether this notification can be given be a non-admin like me. If the notice has to come from an administrator, is it appropriate to approach one active on the page to make the suggestion, or just an admin I happen to know, or should I go to a general noticeboard? I did post to ANI about cold fusion recently but nothing much resulted, likely 'cos I was not posting about any single action but rather as what I fear is a growing mess. Any advice appreciated. Regards, EdChem (talk) 07:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks from me for taking care of this issue for me while I was off-line. --John (talk) 12:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Civility

Hey Risker; I don't want to harp on about this (my faith in arbitration being anything but a kangaroo court is trashed right now) but I think your actions yesterday are an example of the huge civility issue that exists here - once we get away from the curse words misdirection. I stuck my contribution down, which OK apparently is not in the right place (though where exactly I can post an opinion/analysis where it can be reviewed as evidence is beyond me :)). No one came to me to explain the issues with the evidence and suggest a better placement. It was just moved to the talk page (an echo chamber where it will go unnoticed, I suspect) - where people then began to reply without my knowledge. I only happened to notice by accident today, nearly 24 hours later. The lack of notification at any stage is, in my opinion, the exact level of incivility that Arbcom should be looking at (honestly; I'd prefer it if people used curse words at me!). I'm not blaming or attacking you for it - I am certain it was good faith oversight or something that just got forgotten. But just food for thought :) --Errant 10:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

As an asided; to help me understand the problem. What is the difference between my evidence and ScWizard's that makes mine opinion and his factual evidence (as I read it he simply links to NPA and then expresses a personal view of what extent that applies and how Malleus is normally treated). --Errant 10:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Staff training

My dear, how do you do it? If only my own staff were so well trained. Catherine Rollbacker de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)