Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:57, 5 April 2012

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. Please don't consider alerting him to any topic to be canvassing.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Shame

Jimbo, you take credit in the media for starting this project, so you should take responsibility for allowing it to be misused as it is to give living people a hard time. Take some responsiblity. Ayn Rand's philosophy didn't absolve you of taking responsibility, did it? Come on...do the right thing. Cla68 (talk) 08:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you point to any problems in the current article? I have engaged directly with Mr. Hawkins about the article, and personally went through it line-by-line looking for any inaccuracies or errors. I additionally courtesy-blanked the deletion discussions, reprimanded an editor who was rude, and asked another editor who the subject finds annoying to steer clear of the article. So, what is the 'right thing' that you think I've failed to do?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Delete it. That's the decent thing to do, given the history. Kevin (talk) 11:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Given what history, exactly? I've looked into this case in pretty close detail, and I see nothing from the history of the situation that would warrant deletion of the article today. Can you be more precise about why you think that's the right thing to do here? Also, to be clear, I think Cla68 is asking me to overrule community consensus, which would be extremely controversial to say the least. So, obviously, I'd need to have a really really good reason. Even if I agreed that the article should be deleted, that's no different from many hundreds or thousands of votes every year on the site where I might find myself voting in the minority of some issue. If I acted with special powers every little time I disagreed with something, we'd have a huge mess on our hands.

So why is this case not just one in which you (or Cla68, at least) thinks that the community has come to the wrong decision, but that the decision is sufficiently and importantly wrong to such a degree that I ought to do something dramatic about it? I just don't see how that makes sense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in part a question of precedent. This is not a household name. Practically all the sources are primary, and regional, sources. There is no national coverage of him. Someone with that level of notability should have an opt-out from Misplaced Pages, especially if they feel distressed by the way their biography and its associated talk page have been handled by Misplaced Pages's anonymous editors.

The number of biographies rises daily. The number of editors looking after them does not. If we allow that trend to continue, the problems caused by BLP violations will increase. --JN466 13:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Judging by comments on Wifione's talk page, I believe the Hawkins AfD is headed for deletion review. JN466 13:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been in lengthy discussions with Jim Hawkins via his FaceBook account, identifying myself as a WP admin and asking if I can help. Principally, I wanted to know what errors he had detected in the article about him so that I could correct or remove them. Jimbo has asked him the same questions. However he's unwilling to answer that question, instead asking that because of unspecified inaccuracies the article as a whole should be deleted. I've stopped my dialogue with him and left it that I'm willing to be contacted by him at any future date if he wants corrections making. I don't think we can say fairer than that. He has asked me "Why does there have to be a Misplaced Pages article about me" and I suppose the answer is, "there doesn't". By which I mean, it would not be compulsory for us to have one if none existed. However one does exist, obviously. So the question really becomes "Why should it be deleted?" to which the AfD has responded "it shouldn't". There we leave it, unless Jayen wants to propose that WP should not host any BLP's because of the difficulty of maintaining them. Kim Dent-Brown 15:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There simply isn't the secondary-source coverage demanding that we have an article. All the sources bar one, which is a bare mention of his name, are regional and primary sources. There is no national, let alone international, media coverage. The dozen sources cited in the article are pretty much all there is. Someone with that level of notability should simply be able to say "I don't want an article", and we should comply. Why should the man have to worry constantly whether the annual stalker of his tweets will have been busy on the talk page again overnight, or whether the article will again declare to the world which yahoo group he hangs out in, or whether he likes Marmite? Whose business is it?

By the way, I do think we should abandon anonymous editing of little-watched biographies like that. And if not that, we certainly should have flagged revisions for them. The simple fact of the matter is that we are plainly unable to maintain minor biographies and their talk pages in a policy-compliant state, and it's the subjects of those, who are not in the news on a daily or weekly basis, that are most affected by any questionable material. JN466 19:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

@Jimbo - the history of vandalism, of petty revert warring over his DOB, and his clearly stated desire not to have an article. Then when he states that the stress of not knowing what will be said about him next is causing health issues, instead of acting with compassion and decency, we have editors fighting to include where he lives, and Silver Seren with his aggressive demands that the subject justify his feelings. Those are the things that make this different. Kevin (talk) 22:35, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in part a question of precedent: yes, it certainly is. And the precedent some people seem to want to set, is that if you don't think the coverage of you in Misplaced Pages is sufficiently flattering, you can whinge in your blog, on your TV or radio show, and by e-mail, until it's deleted, without ever making any coherent case for why it should be removed instead of improved. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:31, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

That comment is simplistic and offensive. --JN466 19:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

And accurate. -DJSasso (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Accurate? No, not in the slightest. Those who called for deletion did so because they felt his notability was marginal at best and the subject made it known that the existence of a Misplaced Pages article is something he finds distasteful. Whether he was spiteful, angelic, mean, or a perfect gentleman about the matter should not be a concern to us; anonymous and pseudonymous editors have no moral or ethical standing to make value judgements about publicly identifiable people. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"Tarc" (whoever you are) I am known to most people by the same name I use here; and my legal name is right there on my userpage for anybody to see. I reject and spurn any accusation that I'm "hiding behind" the name most people know me by. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:20, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Certainly people can't make those judgments in the articles themselves. But people certainly are able to have their opinions on the actions of a public figure. And it clearly appears that he is just complaining where-ever/however he can to try and get an article he can't control removed. He has been approached by numerous people including Jimbo to clear up any so called inaccuracies and he refused to even reveal what they are. Thus it would be setting a precedent that complain enough if you have a public forum on which you can do so (such as a radio show) and your article will be removed. So yes it is accurate to say that it would set a precedent that complain enough on a radio show and you can get your article removed. -DJSasso (talk) 20:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

If Hawkins is a non-public figure, then his radio show must surely be a non-public forum. So where's the problem? FormerIP (talk) 20:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah? Have you done a study of the edit history and think that it stands up to encyclopedic standards? (And it should not be inferred that any of these editors was the subject.) --JN466 20:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There is vandalism on tens of thousands of articles. It gets fixed usually fairly rapidly. Still doesn't change the fact he appears to just be complaining because he can't control it completely. -DJSasso (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Says an editor editing from behind the veil of anonymity, whose name is not affected by any of this, and who does not give a shit if someone identifiable is harmed. What a model of behaviour. --JN466 20:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in the article at this point is harmful, anything that is harming him at this point is of his own doing and own actions since he started getting upset at wikipedia. If you don't want to be a public figure you don't take a job as a public figure like he has and you don't tweet/post your personal information out into the web like he has. It really is that simple. -DJSasso (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

He is a local radio guy, in Shropshire. No national media coverage, most of the 12 sources are primary sources. That simply isn't a "public figure". There are hundreds or thousands of local radio guys like that who don't have an article in Misplaced Pages. And the argument that tweeting makes you a public figure suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, or that tweeting is something that ought to be punished by anonymous editors creating an article on the person in Misplaced Pages ("anything you tweet can and will be held against you in Misplaced Pages"), is bizarre. The fact of the matter is that people only started looking at his tweets because there were no sources. JN466 22:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

A local radio guy who used to be a national radio guy. But even if he was still just a local radio guy being a host on the radio makes you a public figure. Whether or not it makes you notable is another matter, but it does make you a public figure. And I didn't say that tweeting made him a public figure. My point was that he tweeted or otherwise posted the information that is in the article on the net, so he can't really complain that it is now public since it was him who made it public. -DJSasso (talk) 22:46, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

One-dimensional thinking. A tweet is transient. A Misplaced Pages biography is permanent, and the no. 1 Google link for someone's name. People don't expect random tweets to end up there, nor should they. And when biography subjects tell Misplaced Pages to stay the fuck out of their tweets, that's what Misplaced Pages should do. --JN466 02:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Further, I would note that an IP purporting to be the subject has posted this at the Deletion Review]. Tarc (talk) 20:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• And there is now further meltdown on the article's talk page, with the subject being asked to explain to anonymous editors why he does not want Misplaced Pages to list his birth date (even though per BLP policy, he has the right not to have it listed), and Pigsonthewing making a return to editing the article and its talk page. This has nothing to do with writing an encyclopedia. JN466 20:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Can you stop repeating that the birth date doesn't have to be listed. You've said that a number of times already and i've also acknowledged it a number of times. I merely asked because, as far as I can tell, he has yet to explain why anywhere or to anyone. And I also specifically said that he doesn't have to answer it. But if he's going to keep repeating psychological stress without explaining why publically available information is doing as such, then it rather lessens any weight we give to him. Silverseren 21:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Why the fuck do you think it is any of our business why Hawkins objects to information about him appearing on Misplaced Pages? This seems to be nothing more than hounding of the subject, for no good reason at all.I think we can take it as a foregone conclusion that Pigsonthewing is going to be topic-banned for this - and I'd suggest we consider doing the same for Silver seren. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

He does not have to explain, because you do not have a right to know. JN466 21:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• I wasn't involved here but having read the discussion it is fairly obvious that someone's privacy has been violated (again) and in contravention of Misplaced Pages's rules. Cla68 asked for someone to be accountable, not for a specific action to be taken. Jimmy Wales responded, if I may paraphrase, "it's not my fault; the community did it". The question is, if not Jimmy Wales, who is accountable? Alex Harvey (talk) 02:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • This whole site is set up to ensure that, as far as possible, no one here can be held accountable. Not the Foundation, because they are hiding behind Section 230, and not the editors, because they are (mostly) hiding behind their pseudonyms. The only people who are all in here with their real names are article subjects. JN466 02:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • Can you explain how exactly Hawkins' privacy has been violated? I don't think that has anything to do with this discussion, as we're discussing public information, all of which is available from his section of the BBC website. Silverseren 02:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • There is a reason BLP isn't called WP:SLAVISHLYMAKEAFUTILEEFFORTTOSTUFFTHEGENIEOFFREELYREVEALEDINFORMATIONBACKINTOTHELAMPIFTHESUBJECTBITCHESLOUDLYENOUGH. There's absolutely nothing being discussed here tha isn't already quite well-known, and as usual I wholeheartedly agree with Orangemike. I find it amazing that we are so hard on COI editors when it comes to criticizing products and organizations they create, but god forbid we take such a hard stand against vague complaints with no substance in these sorts of situations; there's no difference save the article in question. And if you don't think people feel as strongly about their creations as they do about themselves/family members, do read what Frank Zappa, Dee Snider, and John Denver said when the PMRC went on their foray into trying to foist their personal views on what was "offensive" on the US. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

We have a far greater responsibility to understand BLP subjects than they have a responsibility to communicate. It's not their fault that we created an article about them, and it's unfair to expect all such subjects to be experts at presenting their case. If they make vague complaints, then it's up to us to figure out how to express those complaints in terms we can apply policies to. Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, we're not mind readers. If they refuse to say what their objections are, and the article appears to be BLP compliant, it's beholden on them to specify what they feel is wrong with the article. We can't just guess. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

It is amazing to me that Wikipedians demand that the subject say what is wrong with his biography article and pretend to be unaware that there is nothing to stop anonymous trolls from changing it. Are you also claiming that the article is going to be frozen in this state forever? Alex Harvey (talk) 02:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a straw-man. The article is currently in good form, but the subject wants it deleted anyway with no reason given. Yes, articles can be vandalized. That's not a reason to delete an article that's currently in good standing. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

That is a ridiculous argument. The article has been vandalised in the past, and may well be vandalised again in the future. In any case, there is no requirement whatsoever to compel the article subject to justify a request that the article be deleted. He doesn't like it, it is about him. He is entitled to his opinion, and we are entitled to take his opinion into consideration. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism is a moot point. Unless an article is fully protected, vandalism will happen to any article. Saying it "may well be vandalized again" is not a valid argument for deletion.

That said, I agree with you that we should take his opinion into consideration. Which has been done. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is vandalism a moot point? The goal here is to provide a factual resource for the readers, articles that are frequently vandalised fail to meet that goal. If we cannot provide reasonable protection from vandalism, then not having an article is the lesser evil. It's a matter of finding the right balance. Kevin (talk) 23:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It's moot because it's like saying, "If you can't prevent graffiti from being sprayed on this bridge, better to destroy the bridge." The only way to prevent BLPs from being vandalized would be to Fully Protect them and only allow admins to edit the page after each proposed edit has been vetted. Even Barack Obama is only semi-protected, and gets (temporary) full protection when determined vandals hit it. A blanket "locked BLPs" policy has been shot down every time it's been proposed. Being able to edit articles is the foundation of Misplaced Pages. It's unrealistic to then say we should delete any BLP because we can't guarantee it won't be vandalized.

What you've proposed is "Perfection or Nothing." Which is an absurd stance to take, because humans are never perfect. With that policy, we'd have no BLPs about anyone in short order. Including one on the current President of the United States. We do provide reasonable protection from vandalism right now. It's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good. — The Hand That Feeds You: 02:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I guess it's easier to say that vandalism protection is pretty good if it isn't your biography being vandalised. I like your analogy, there's a similar one that happens where I live: if telephone boxes are vandalized often enough they get removed, i.e. a balance has been struck between their usefullness to the community, and the cost to keep them. My proposal, if you want to call it that, is also about balance. A balance between the interests of the readers, the editors, and the subject. Kevin (talk) 03:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Except that we're writing for the benefit of our readers, not ourselves or our subjects. The idea is to provide readers with information, not to cater to demands of people who want to have exclusive control over their article. If the two conflict, it falls to the side of providing encyclopedic information regardless of how much people don't like it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but not at the expense of the subject. Remember this side discussion is about vandalism, something entirely reasonable for a subject to not like. Kevin (talk) 04:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No, I'll never buy into the "if it's not perfect, tear it down" mentality. We may as well shut down the entire site if that policy were ever enacted. Besides, are you defining "subject" as only living persons? How about groups that object to their portrayal (Scientology)? Corporations? Governments? Just because someone doesn't like what's on Misplaced Pages it doesn't follow that they get their article taken down. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

A radical idea; BLP opt-out for all

Every time some borderline notable person complains about their article, we have to have these nasty, drawn-out fights in order to actually get it done...or not done, as that is the regrettable direction that the Jim Hawkins bio is heading. Huge wars over if the person is really notable or what degree of sorta kinda non-notability the person has in order to qualify for WP:BIODELETE, then we have to deal with the spite, both from editors here who see the deletion as a grave travesty and those off-wiki who may be friends of the person or just interested parties.

So rather the same fight over and over about how much of a sliver to open BIODELETE and all requests through, here's what we do.

Throw it open. All the way.

Any living person, subject to identity verification via OTRS, may request the deletion of their article. No discussion, no AfD, just *poof*. In its place is a simple template explaining why there is no longer an article there, and a pointer to where the reader can find information on the subject, a link similar to Template:Find sources at the top of every AfD.

Yes, this is radical and yes "for all" really does mean for all, so as unlikely the chance is, if Barack Obama requested deletion of his article, yes, it will be gone. This is encyclopedia that people come to to find information about a subject. That doesn't mean that that information has to be here all of the time, and I think the actual number of people who would take advantage of this would be so vanishingly small as to be inconsequential. Let the Jim Hawkins' and Don Murphys of the world be at peace, for once. I realize that to many, the Misplaced Pages is a paradise, but we have to face the truth of that matter is that sometimes some people just want to find the exit. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

An interesting idea. Somehow, I can't see that getting approved as policy though... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I am minded to support this idea. This is a serious problem for Wiki - we cannot be seen, as a project, to be putting our fingers in our ears to serious requests by people because of a high-minded idea of 'value' or 'worth'. doktorb _words 20:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose with a side order of WTF? This is a proposal to abdicate any responsibility, because one or two individuals a year get antsy about the content of their articles. I reject any such move, although I certainly will accept that it's meant in good faith, however incomprehensible it may be to me as a historian and journalist; and it's certainly, ummm... bold! --Orange Mike | Talk 20:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support - I have long supported giving people of marginal notability the option of "opting out" of Misplaced Pages. For me, the question was always where to draw the line, and I know that I would draw that line in a different place than others, but I never suspected that anyone would suggest that Misplaced Pages could not do without the biography of Jim Hawkins (radio presenter). I support Tarc's ambitious and futile proposal. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• hell no and this isn't the forum for the discussion. We need to be fair and careful with how we deal with BLPs...but all out deletions for anyone who requests it shouldn't even be considered as an option. --Onorem♠Dil 20:30, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

"it shouldn't even be considered as an option". why not? Do we have a policy on things we aren't allowed to think about? How we decide that something is unthinkable without thinking about it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Clearly I'm offering an opinion. Think about whatever the hell you want to. Offer up whatever ideas you want to. I think this entire argument is a non-starter. If a person is notable, we shouldn't feel obligated to delete their bio just because they ask us to. When it comes to borderline cases, the input might make a difference. This proposal is simplistic and unrealistic. --Onorem♠Dil 20:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

There isn't actually anything unrealistic about the proposed change. If this were enacted, it could be very easily done (verifying identity would be the most difficult part, but we apparently do that already for other OTRS processes). The fact that some people might not want to allow people to opt out does not mean that it could not be done, and done with very little difficulty. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Unrealistic is a poor choice of wording I guess. Clearly it could be done. I think (there's that opinion thing again) that it would be remarkably stupid to allow any bio subject to request (and be granted without question) deletion of their article. It's still far too simplistic of a suggestion to useful.) --Onorem♠Dil 21:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if I am being dense, but why? Why is it too simplistic to be useful? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

This still isn't the forum for the discussion. Why is it too simplistic? Do you actually believe that any person who wants for any reason to have their article deleted should have that request granted? People are sometimes notable...whether they like it or not. I don't see how it's reasonable to say that any person can have their article deleted for any reason. Is that a simple enough explanation for my thoughts? --Onorem♠Dil 22:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Let me put it this way, DC: if Barack Obama came here and asked us to remove his article, should we? Should we really not have an article on a President of the United States? — The Hand That Feeds You: 11:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'd go along with default to delete for the marginally notable. But this would just be a recipe for newbie biting. Who would like the task of explaining to people that various arrested murderers and war criminals couldn't have wikipedia articles written on them because they had requested it? And then what do we do if a bunch of senior US politicians decide they'd rather have their bios on their own sites and Conservapedia but not here? ϢereSpielChequers 20:37, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - would make life much easier for some editors (and even more exasperated admins), but also for any celebrity or politician wishing to quickly hide any kind of unflattering indiscretion or major scandal? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:42, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed! —MistyMorn (talk) 22:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Silly nonsense from a Misplaced Pages Review activist. Prioryman (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • No, I think they call themselves something like Wikipedocrats now they have signed up to the all new agenda. Though I'm probably being unfair, we should probably check with the Arbcom members and Oversight members that are active supporters of the Wikipedocracy and hence are themselves promoting Greg Kohs. --Fæ (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Can we do away with this ridiculous "WR bad" canard, please? You lost the WP:BADSITES argument a long time ago, not to mention that...as i noted earlier...WR is dead and the splinter faction is not something I even really support. Tarc (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

In practice, when I get a complaint from someone who wants their article deleted, I'll look at the page. If the page is not verifiable, then this is easy - I'll delete the page on those grounds. If the page is verifiable, but either not notable or only marginally notable, I will likely choose to delete the page for them. Obviously this involves a judgement call about what constitutes 'marginally notable'. Most of the time no one complains about the deletion, and all is well. If someone does object to the deletion then I'd first let them know why the page was deleted, and then we can go to DRV or AfD as needed. This approach handles most BLP deletion requests fairly nicely. However, there are some articles where the inclusion of the page is important to the project. For these highly visible, people I would not agree with deleting these pages simply because the subject doesn't want a factual, neutral piece (as determined by our consensus process) written about them. Unlike for articles about minor figures, attention to their article should be sufficient to prevent the addition of disparaging material. I'd argue that the desires of the readers looking for this article outweigh the desires of the subject. It would be impossible to make this site work if we cared only about the subjects of pages, or only about the readers, or even only about the editors. A balance has to be struck, and this proposal does not do that. Prodego 20:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Unilaterally deleting articles of "marginally notable" persons is not permitted by WP:CSD and the fact that no one happens to notice such an abuse doesn't justify it. Just because the original author has retired and no one else has it watchlisted doesn't mean it has no utility to our readership. Such articles should always go through AfD. Dcoetzee 21:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages, no matter how much we love it, is just a website along with Facebook. If somebody wants their details gone, then who are we to say no? Think of it as wanting to unsubscribe from a web community where you don't want to get the newsletter any more. If they dig their heels in and keep on sending their stuff, it's annoying and counterproductive. --Pete (talk)
  • Being a website does not make an information source frivolous or unimportant. Deleting articles directly damages readers who take advantage of that information to learn and complete real-world tasks, and content reusers who take advantage of the article to help others make informed decisions. The needs of the individual are worthy of consideration, but the needs of the many may exceed them. The availability of information elsewhere does not negate this, because such information may either be more difficult to access, misrepresent the subject, or get taken down eventually. Dcoetzee 21:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • You learned nothing from this, did you? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • The needs of the individual are worthy of consideration, but the needs of the many may exceed them. You know, that sounds like Jeremy Bentham's Utilitarianism rephrased, and it still sounds like a copout for doing harm to others. Can we find a solution that doesn't do any harm at all? --Pete (talk) 22:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
      • No, we can't. Every time you post anything online you are hurting or risking hurting somebody, even if only by displacing commercial opportunities to provide that same content. The goal of Misplaced Pages is to produce an overall benefit to society. @Delicious, I would not compare the utility of an orphaned image of little conceivable use to an article on a notable person read by hundreds to thousands of people, much less to the article on Barack Obama as the OP suggested. Dcoetzee 23:53, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Quite a humbling comparison there, Pete, although my relatively miniscule contribtion here means I'm not as offended as some editors might be. Still, perhaps Mark Zuckerberg will buy us one day, and then we can just officially un-friend each other? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

i think it sets up for gaming the system. someone doesnt want an article that accurate portrays some less than perfect aspects of their life. and then "oh i changed my mind" start fresh. if you cannot change your mind, then there are situations i am aware of such as a young quiz show participant who really unfairly became a target of public ridicule in the media and on the Misplaced Pages page about xir could very rightly say "get me off". and then they grow up and become a famous politician and nobel prize winner or cures cancer or becomes the next elvis and we would have no article. I dont think this "cure" has any chance of solving any more problems than it creates. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Um, votes? Seriously? This is Jimbo's talk page, not a platform for policy-making. The intent was just to see what the general sense of the idea was. Chillax yo shizzles, as a hipster Snoop Dogg would put it. Tarc (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• I honestly think the embers of this particular drama are too dim to be worth stoking now. Move on already. FormerIP (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree. I think most department stores will regret seeing their handbag sales drop once all the Wikipedians stop throwing them at each other. If someone sees a Louis Vuitton on the pile, it's mine. --Fæ (talk) 22:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• This would essentially mean that any tyrant in the world could send a line to the Foundation and get their article deleted, since it discusses the fully verifiable and, often, internationally recognized negative information about them. This is entirely unacceptable and a worthless proposal. Silverseren 22:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • See, that's the kind of vitriol that I find a bit puzzling at times. Somewhere along the line, "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" seems to have warped into a right to write an article about anyone of your choosing. What exactly gives you the right to write about a marginal person? We're not talking about the Tiger Woods or Angelina Jolie of the world here ultimately, but of the woman who barely scrapes by WP:PROF or the guy who placed 8th in the 1988 Olympics. Do they have any say at all in how or where a website writes about them? Any? Tarc (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • so you are advocating a "some can drop out , but not others" - how and where would you be able to draw that line? and we would be right back to where we are "yes this person is in the drop out zone." "no they are not". -- The Red Pen of Doom 22:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Sigh. Did you note post #1 where I gave the Obama example? There is no line drawn in this idea, none at all. I don't think the ultra-famous really care about the Misplaced Pages as the coverage of them in the world is so over-saturated, we're just one stop among thousands. This is aimed at the marginally notable and those who are aggrieved enough about it to want to be wiped from the project, but the option would be available to all. Tarc (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
        • • I did read post #1. And then I read your post where you said "We're not talking about the Tiger Woods or Angelina Jolie". So either we are talking about Tiger and Angela and say Robert Mugabe, or we are not. -- The Red Pen of Doom 23:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
            • Really not sure how to explain it again in better terms. What this proposal seeks to do is to take WP:BIODELETE and remove the "relatively unknown, non-public figures" clause. I want to eliminate the endless haggle over just who qualifies for that clause by just throwing it all wide open so the people like Jim Hawkins can get off the pages in this project just by asking. The later comment about Tiger and whatnot was just an aside about how I think famous people were unlikely to ever take advantage of this. That is all. And if they did actually want to? That fine too. Tarc (talk) 00:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Different proposal:

But which would require WMF to actually make a decision.

Any person desiring his or her biography to be deleted from Misplaced Pages shall furnish sufficient reason for such deletion. A committee shall dispassionately evalute the reasoning, and such decisions as are made by the committee shall not be reviewable except by the Arbitration Committee. Reasons which may be accepted include, but are not limited to, insufficient notability, notoriety for a single event, vandalism of information in the biography, and legal requirements of the venue in which the person resides.

This differs substantially from the proposal above, but, I hope, addresses some legitimate concerns. Collect (talk) 22:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Hell no As I said below, this is an encyclopedia. You can't very well tear out "Mussolini" from every copy of EB ever printed, can you? No - the subject existed, their notability was not temporary, the article exists. Deleting one "at the wish of the subject" was the stupidest thing done; period. Let's stop arguing about deletions, and let's simply make sure they meet BLP requirements as a whole, and protect them from defacement - period (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • LOL -- that would hardly occur -- if a committee made the decision that a person is not notable, then the current semi-circus of !votes would finally end. My suggestion does not say "at the wish of the subject" -- perhaps you meant to place it up the page a hair? Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• I don't think the resources exist to staff such a committee, unless it were volunteer-based, in which case we'd have... pretty much the same thing we have now? Dcoetzee 23:55, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • Note the WMF comment at the start. Yep -- those folks would have to be the ones to set up the committee at that point, as the current !vote system is clearly broken. (anyone question this?) I suspect they would only need 5 part time workers on the task max - with input from WMF Legal as needed. Say under $50K a year would get a pretty fair job done. Maybe much less once the first hundred or so cases get done. Collect (talk) 00:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I absolutely question the claim that "the current !vote system is clearly broken". While I've seen some cases where I would have voted differently, I don't know of any where I see that the process is "clearly broken". In the Jim Hawkins case, I originally mentioned that I thought the article should be deleted. Then I went through it line-by-line and did my homework and changed my mind. I wouldn't be acutely bothered and consider the system broken no matter which way that particular example went - that's the thing about borderline cases; they are cases where reasonable people can disagree. I can think of no reason whatsoever to think that Foundation staff could do a better job, and lots of reasons to think that they would do a much much worse job (their incentives would be structurally wrong).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

In this case I disagree -- not on the point that the WMF is not staffed with the right people for the task, but with your position that the !vote system is not "broken." On and off-wiki CANVASSing has been done in the past on AfDs (well-documented) and !votes absolutely not founded in Misplaced Pages policy are common. Votes like "per nom" are rife still in those discussions, and in a few cases it appears that groups may descend or have descended on AfDs (not counting the ARS former issues, and similar groups of AfD regulars in "opposition.") Where a BLP is the issue, especially of any person about whom contentious edits have been made, the process problems are exacerbated. Hence my choice of "broken." Hence my specific suggestion for listed reasons for deletion of a BLP where the subject requests deletion - making subjective judgements is not a good place for !voting - and generally produces more heat than light. I take it you would have preferred "the current system sometimes generates more heat than light with the system of !votes 'unrelated' to specific policy-based reasons for deletion"? Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• The last thing this project needs is more Foundation interference in the content of this encyclopedia. Something like that might well end my participation on Misplaced Pages. Strongly object to both proposals. Both compromise the neutrality of our content and negatively impact our ability to fulfill our mandate. You might as well just close up shop at that point. Resolute 00:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose all this stuff. Note that if "repeated vandalism" is an excuse to delete, anyone looking to delete articles just needs a few spare IP addresses. Wnt (talk) 03:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Guaranteed deletion of a BLP on request of the subject is not a new idea, and it is totally undesirable. It would allow famous individuals to ensure that only their personal websites or PR handouts could be used as reference sources. As for the Jim Hawkins saga, enough said.--♦IanMacM♦ 05:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the Jim Hawkins case is a really interesting one in that it is unusual. The article about Mr. Hawkins is a perfectly good article. The thing that he's traditionally been upset about is his date of birth being listed in the article, even though he has openly talked about it on twitter and the radio. As we don't have a reliable source for that, it's out of the article now. For hundreds of other biographies this would be considered just a normal editorial discussion ending in the right decision. In this case, Mr. Hawkins has expressed mental anguish over it. To be clear: I think a couple of people should be topic-banned from the article, if they won't voluntarily agree to leave it alone, because their presence around the article is causing Mr. Hawkins to be upset. But what makes this case interesting is that his being upset is actually quite unreasonable. He insisted this past weekend that the article contained errors, but refused to tell me what they were. So I went through it personally in extreme detail, verifying in reliable sources every single sentence of the article. I haven't got a clue what errors he thinks the article has. He's upset at the very existence of the article, even though he is clearly a notable public figure, even though the article contains nothing negative about him, etc. I think that the wishes of the subject are something that we should take into account with compassion, even when those wishes are completely unreasonable, but only as one factor among many.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for spending so much time on this case. I would like to point out for all readers, that the only time that Jim Hawkins has emailed a request for help from Wikimedia was in September 2009, and there was a lengthy and positive dialogue back then (despite claims to the contrary, the first response from an OTRS volunteer to his original complaint was given in less than 12 hours of sending the email; not bad for a system manned by unpaid volunteers). The email from 2009 is referenced at the top of the article talk page and is the basis for successfully enforcing the personal information policy with respect to birth dates. If Jim Hawkins, or anyone with problems with articles containing biographical information about their personal lives, has further problems or complaints then emailing infowikimedia.org is an effective way to get helpful and confidential support. --Fæ (talk) 09:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Since there are three issues at hand here (the general borderline-notable BLP issue, the issue of the BLP of Hawkins, and the issue of the complaints brought by an IP that claims to be Hawkins) things start to get complicated pretty soon. Pertaining to the very last, might it be a good idea to try to contact Hawkins, preferably through pro-active OTRS action if that is possible, to protect the privacy of Hawkins, to get a definitive yay or nay on whether the IP is in fact Hawkins, to get at least one element of complication untangled from the rest of the discussion, and get a statement from who we know is Hawkins on the issue? I wouldn't be opposed to Jimbo contacting him either, since one of the expressed possible anguishes from Hawkins is the concept of anonymous people aggregating information on him. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that an accurate assessment here involves looking at the article's long and cumulative history, rather than just its present state. Because from the subject's point of view, this history can repeat itself any day. I would like to invite people to read the comments from Skyring (Pete) and ErrantX at WP:AN. These comments give some indication of the history of this BLP. It's been an intermittent, but recurrent venue for harassment and a constant source of discomfort for years. I do not see Misplaced Pages as having the moral right to inflict this on someone like Hawkins – in the interest of free knowledge? As Dcoetzee says, there are trade-offs. Misplaced Pages is playing roulette with someone's no. 1 Google link, and telling that person that if they don't like it they are a "pratt". --JN466 10:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I think I already said this a few days ago, but this argument, that "the biography is fine now", reminds me of a garbage collection company that has, for years, failed to collect a city's garbage reliably, leaving the city's residents to drown in rubbish time and again. If, faced with losing their contract because residents have finally had enough, they make one almighty effort and finally clean up the streets, they don't get to say, "What problem? The streets are clean!" Especially if rubbish is already beginning to build up again just as they are saying that. JN466 10:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• 'Oppose - if a notable person can't stand the heat they need to just get the hell out of the kitchen. They wanted their 15 minutes worth of fame so now they've got it. Don't want an article about themselves on Misplaced Pages, well tough titty.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
  • It's funny how in views like this one there is always someone else to blame. If the Misplaced Pages biography of some media person falsely states they are a homophobe, an alcoholic, or an antisemite, then that is their fault, because they chose to become famous. Beg pardon? Somehow, it's never the fault of Misplaced Pages ... I'm not sure what the OP proposed is the ideal solution, but to say that there just isn't a problem, and our biography subjects deserve what's coming their way because they were foolish enough to become notable enough for people to write about them, is deeply offensive. That kind of disregard for the rights of others is what defines a sociopath, and it is endemic here. JN466 12:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Come now, Jayen, don't insult everyone's intelligence with such garbage. Nobody said they should have to deal with false claims, nor that it would be their fault if they did. However, notable people do have people writing about them, whether it is Misplaced Pages or someone's blog or news stories or whatever. That is the price of being a public individual. At least on Misplaced Pages, our goal (even if we aren't perfect) is to be accurate. That is more than can be said for some outlets. Also, please spare everyone the Ludwigsesque nonsense of accuing anyone who doesn't support your view of being a 'sociopath', or the like. Nonsense like that reflects far more poorly on you than it does those you respond to. Resolute 13:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
      • You might want to withdraw that. He (Ludwigs2) did not accuse everyone who opposed him of being a sociopath. The argument you're alluding to, concerning the autistic/sociopathic ethos here and its origins, is much more subtle, and worthy of more respect than you pay it with that straw man characterisation of it as an indiscriminately deployed epithet. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Yes, it's an indiscriminately deployed epithet with some moronic pop psychology behind it. FormerIP (talk) 15:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
          • • It's this kind of response to the feelings and welfare of others, this lack of concern for the real life effects of our choices here that concerns me, JN466 and others. (You need to read the post that comment is responding to, for context). I'm afraid it is a response typical of unsocialised autistics, who don't grasp social consequences well, and psychopaths, who don't care about harm to others. That's not to say people who respond like that are autistic or psychopathic, it is to say that somehow this kind of response is a respectable part of the ethos here. It's de facto policy. The idea that we should respond compassionately (at no real cost to the project) in situations like this one, where genuine distress is likely being caused, is sneered at. I hate this about Misplaced Pages. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
          • I am the editor Jayen claimed is the definition of a sociopath. May I also add that the epithet was accompanied with the typical balls-out stance that so many editors adopt behind the safety of a PC screen. I really don't think he would flash such a big pair were he to actually encounter living, breathing Early Grace-Lenny Murphy types of sociopath.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

• • • • I am sorry, Resolute, but false claims appear about individuals in Misplaced Pages on a daily basis. If biography subjects complain about that, or want to opt out, and people here say they shouldn't have gotten famous if they "can't stand the heat", that's not a reasonable attitude. Misplaced Pages should get its biographies sorted – start registered editing for minor biographies, move them to a different project, introduce flagged revisions, make biography editing a separate user right, things like that. As long as editors here say that it is "normal" for Misplaced Pages to contain false, unfair or defamatory information about people on a daily basis, and notable people should not expect anything else from a project that keeps telling the world what a "noble purpose" it has, I will call that a sociopathic culture. JN466 16:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
        • • For fu.ks sake, read my bloody comments. Where the hell do I say that it's OK for Misplaced Pages articles to contain false or defamatory information? If you would bother your arse to actually READ what I wrote instead of spouting verbal rubbish, you would see that I was talking about notables who winge over having an article here. I said NOTHING about false information. Just yesterday I had to deal with BLP issues on a Troubles-related page which has a 1RR, and you were certainly nowhere about with your Crusader sword in hand. Please DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
            • If you agree that Misplaced Pages has a BLP problem, why do you think it is so unreasonable for subjects to want to opt out of having a biography here? --JN466 16:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Dealing with false claims is one thing. Compromising the neutrality of and censoring our encyclopedia to suit biographical subjects who don't like the fact that they do not have complete control over their public profile is another. Separate concepts, and only the former should be any kind of priority here. Resolute 17:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't think Tarc expected his proposal to be adopted of course. Its a Radical Idea to make people think. In my opinion, every two-bit politician with any whiff of controversy, or charlatan like Keith Raniere, with any common sense, would indeed request his article be deleted. If I advised Rick Santorum, I'd advise him to request it tomorrow, as part of a campaign to denounce Misplaced Pages generally. If we want to deal with the issue of marginal BLPs, remember that they comprise a small sliver of our entire project content, that most of them are not contentious, and that only a small sliver of this small sliver goes to AfD for the type of drama Tarc refers to. My personal opinion in this small number of BLP cases is that if the subject is of truly marginal notability, subject has specifically requested deletion, and any important content can be distributed elsewhere (such that the outcome of the AfD is otherwise going to be subject to the randomness of who shows up), we should delete. See, e.g., Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Max Bernstein (musician).--Milowent • 13:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support Tarc's suggestion. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As I pointed out in the deletion review, it seems as though the closing admin misread BIODEL. He believes that BIODELETE does *not* allow the deletion of articles about marginally notable people, and in fact asks other editors to gain consensus to change it so that it does. See here: ]

What is the way forward for this BLP subject? One way forward could be editors like SlimVirgin, Dweller, DGG, Youreallycan etc working towards creating an addition to BIODEL or to BLPDEL that confirms that marginally notable people, irrespective of whether their BLP is an attack page or not, may request successfully the removal of their BLP from our project.

Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Any such changes would have to go through a widely advertised RfC. Also, "marginally notable" is just another way to say "person who complains a lot about their bio". Either you are notable, or you aren't. Personally, I would rather dicuss raising the notability bar for certain professions rather than discuss ways to compromise Misplaced Pages's neutrality by allowing subjects to dictate our content. Resolute 16:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, look at the sources in Hawkins' biography. More than half of them primary sources (local BBC), plus a few regional. Nothing national, except a bare mention in the Guardian. The man arguably fails GNG altogether. --JN466 16:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The outcome of the AFD disagreed. Resolute 17:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The BBC isn't a primary source unless you're claiming that the person from the BBC personally knows everything about Mr Hawkins and is writing from their own experience. Some of them are written by Hawkins himself and are primary but most will be secondary or tertiary. The question of whether they are secondary independent or secondary non-independent is another issue. In an organisation as big as the BBC there's every likelihood that the web editors will write and edit independently from presenters so even the claim that the sources are non-independent secondary is probably an unlikely one to be true. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Stuart, if ibm.com hosts a resumé or CV of one of their managers, that is a primary source. Likewise if ibm.com hosts a page on a project that manager leads. People get confused because they see BBC and think it is a secondary source. It isn't in such a case. Notability is demonstrated by coverage in independent reliable secondary sources. A BBC page about a BBC employee is reliable, but it is not independent, and it is not secondary. JN466 19:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Jayen, yes if IBM.com hosts a resumé or CV written by one of their managers, that is a primary source. However if a biography of one of their managers is written by an IBM PR person analyzing primary sources (HR records, external sources) and not based on their own experiences of the manager then it is definitely a secondary source. The fact it is hosted on IBM.com is not what makes it primary or secondary it is who has written it and where has the information come from. In this case the BBC person is not writing based on their experiences of Hawkins, but by analysing sources about Hawkins - this clearly makes it Secondary (or possibly tertiary) whether or not that person and Hawkins share a connection in the BBC. WP:PSTS outlines the differences between Primary, Secondary and Tertiary and for each of these there is the added consideration of whether the source is independent, or non-independent but this is a separate issue. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

A BBC blurb or advertisement for one of Hawkins' programmes is neither secondary nor independent, even if it includes a short bio sketch. (A review of his programme in the Guardian, say, would be a secondary source.) Not to mention that a good few of the dozen sources were written by Hawkins himself: . More generally, if you were to try to establish notability for any employee of a company based on a couple of brief bio sketches on the company's websites, you would fail. --JN466 23:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You can't make that assertion without knowing who wrote it, where their information came from, and what their connection with the show is - the basis that both are employed by the BBC is not enough and I already said "Some of them are written by Hawkins himself and are primary" - The problem with your last point is that nearly every Journalist or Presenter (Radio or TV) on Misplaced Pages are primarily noted in works they have created rather than works created about them. And often when works are created about them, they are created primarily in media associated with them. That's all the way down from Pulitzer Prize winners. Yes it doesn't apply to employees of companies in other fields, but we generally presume that media organisations will maintain their standards of neutrality, and fact checking when writing about their own employees - if you think this should be changed, then again that's a discussion for a policy page. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - While I agree with the suggestion up to a point, a policy that would permit the US President to have his article deleted would not be appropriate. Rather, there could be guidelines defining for BLPs with moderate or less notability. That would be a subset of existing notability guidelines and would take some work to set up. But (just taking US politicians), presidents, congressmen, cabinet members, governors would definitely not qualify. There are others such as (as much as it would be desirable to keep the guidelines as objective as possible) mayors of major cities. Of course, other categories of BLP would need to have their own guidelines (e.g., for US sports I would suggest that MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL players would not qualify). But for the remainder, I would have no problem with a policy permitting them to opt put of having a Misplaced Pages article despite meeting our notability guidelines. Rlendog (talk) 14:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support This is a very good suggestion. An alternative suggestion could be that BIODELETE is replaced with BIOKEEP, and we start erring on the side of the subject's request for deletion. Alex Harvey (talk) 15:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Plato the Greek or Rin Tin Tin - who's more famous to the billion millions?

Jim Hawkins is a radio broadcaster in a limited market. He does not wish to have an article in Misplaced Pages, but he does. Mimi Macpherson is a businessperson and environmentalist. She does not wish to have an article in Misplaced Pages, and she does not. When I do a Google search for each, I get about 100 000 hits for "Jim Hawkins". I get about 300 000 hits for "Mimi Macpherson". I'm not suggesting that this is the best way to gauge "notability", but it is suggestive of public awareness. Why does the better known one get to opt out, while the lesser known one does not? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Er, see WP:GNUM. And read Treasure Island. Numbers like this mean nothing much, and certainly can't be used as evidence for 'notability'. Nice to see that we actually followed policy (particularly WP:BLP1E) over Macpherson though... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Hasn't this whole Hawkins debate grown stale yet? Aren't we all grownups? Aren't we actually able to go back to improving the encyclopedia yet? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:29, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Hawkins is just the example du jour. The underlying issue is BLPs that are unwanted by their subject. The names change, but the script is the same. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's ridiculous we let the other one decide the article's fate. You can't go around tearing articles out of every printed copy of EB, can you? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:37, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

You might have noticed that this isn't EB we're talking about here. Do you really think either of those people would be in EB? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Flatly, if they unambiguously satisfy the notability criterion, they have no business telling us to delete their article, and even if they did the sources used for it would just be used in another one. If they're a borderline case, they go to AfD. If their article doesn't give a claim go notability, we have A7, simple as that. If there's any BLP-violating material, just excise it.

Suggesting that they should be allowed to have an article on Misplaced Pages deleted upon request is an insult not only to Misplaced Pages, but to themselves as well. Once information's on Misplaced Pages, it's going to be mirrored quite rapidly, and acting like you own the Foundation is a very good way to invoke Barbara Streisand, especially if you're requesting deletion because the article contains unflattering details about a situation you were involved in. Not to mention that the chances are good that, if the article is legitimately sourced, however shallowly, all you're doing is trying to censor out the information from Misplaced Pages.

Now, don't take this to mean that I don't care about the subjects - though caring about IPs and new users is a higher priority for me - but if there's already information about you elsewhere on the web and it winds up being used to source a Misplaced Pages article on you that you may not like, you're wasting your time asking for it to be deleted and risking the Streisand effect in the process. —Jeremy v^_^v 00:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The trouble here is that we use a very subjective guideline for "notability". I think many people who do a Google search or look at Mimi Macpherson's biography on her website would conclude that she is "notable". And yet - we have no article. She is exactly the case that people are objecting to in the discussion above - a celebrity who wishes not to have a biography here due to negative news items about them. As usual, my issue here is that we have one set of rules for some people and another set of rules for others. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:03, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems like people pushing to delete material always expect special consideration. If I say, look, that's a great reason to have an article for the one we don't, people will say "WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" and say precedents don't matter. But "WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESN'TEXIST"? Well, that's just not a valid objection, is it. If one thing, sometime, somehow, was deleted, it means that everything anybody here ever made should be thrown out right away. Have fun. Wnt (talk) 03:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe we should offer this guy a deal where his article is deleted from wikipedia in exchange for him agreeing to never talk about wikipedia or any wikipedians on his show or in any public broadcast or publication (including twitter) ever again. If he breaks this to deal to ego stroke (for example) then the article goes back up for eternity. Some how I don't think this curmudgeon would agree to such a deal. SkyMachine 06:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Jim's show is available online via the BBC website. He interviewed me at Easter 2006 and we performed the Tim Tam Slam live on air.* He could barely speak for laughing. He is the merriest, most playful, amiable curmudgeon I ever met. I somehow get the feeling that most of the editors expressing their opinions have no idea of the man. Yet here we are arguing policy on Jimbo's talkpage. Jim Hawkins has been direct and pointed in his criticism of Misplaced Pages, yet Jimbo, who of all people might be insulted at having his creation treated so, is the model of reason and grace. * Now that I think back on the occasion, the photograph used in the Tim Tam Slam article was taken later that same day when I went directly from Shrewsbury to Frankfurt via Welshpool, laden with packets of Tim Tams. --Pete (talk) 06:41, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I should make clear that the purpose of this thread was to point out that we do occasionally delete the biographies of people who ask us to do so, even if they likely meet our notability guidelines. It was not intended as an encouragement for an admin to unprotect and re-create Mimi Macpherson. Sadly, that has been the result. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I think what you are highlighting is not a contradiction, but a consistent application of some broad principles. Of course our deletion process is likely to give inconsistent results in borderline cases as the people !voting on various cases will be different people, and consistency is not baked into the process by default. But the example you're giving doesn't illustrate inconsistency.

Let me explain. In the case of Mimi MacPherson, she's clearly an example of BLP1E. Furthermore, according to the best available source, she was clearly the victim of a hoax. For those who don't know the story: early in the era of Internet-spread 'celebrity sex tapes' a video came out purporting to be her. Acting on the best available advice at the time (which was wrong) she said nothing publicly about it. The view was that the whole story would blow over and be forgotten. But this is the Internet era. Nothing is ever forgotten (especially if there is porn of it, which according to Rule 34 means everything). That the tape was apparently a fake (according to a discussion of the case in an academic journal) has escaped most media attention. So here we have a perfectly innocent person, having never sought the public eye in any way, who has this absurd thing happen to her (whether the tape was real or not), with a biography in Misplaced Pages simply because of the BLP1E that her sister is famous. After a vibrant deletion discussion, there was consensus to delete, a consensus which properly took into account her quite reasonable pain about this fact of her life.

In the case of Jim Hawkins, we have an award-winning radio personality who has been covered in ongoing media about his career. A career which he chose, which he has promoted in the usual ways, and at which he is quite good! We have an article that doesn't have anything that could even remotely reasonably be considered painful or sensitive. Indeed, there's not even anything negative in this quite routine biography. People here also took into account his wishes, but found that the case is different.

You can't simply look at a single metric like google hits or even fame in order to make a thoughtful decision about whether or not we should have an article about someone. I'm a BLP hardliner, I think there are a significant number of BLPs that should be deleted. And I also think that the wishes of marginally notable people, as well as the pain an article might cause them, is a completely valid thing to consider. But in the examples you've listed I think we've reached the right decision in both cases.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo, I think you're taking some of the things said by deletion opponents as gospel, and because you are Jimbo, this leads to people giving them more credence than they deserve. The "award winning" refers to a silver award (i.e. being a runner up) which he shared with another person (who doesn't even have an article). The only media which is "ongoing" consists of primary sources such as the BBC discussing their own presenters.

As for being painful or sensitive, the article has a long history. The fact that it's okay now, when attention has been temporarily been called to it, is irrelevant. Quoting Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Seth_Finkelstein_(2nd): "You've achieved a few things over the years, and as a reward, here's your very own troll magnet to monitor and defend for the rest of your life".

And I'm skeptical of using awards combined with almost nothing else as an excuse to have a BLP. Wouldn't BLP1E apply to someone who's only notable for having one award? Ken Arromdee (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It's been deleted again, but that said having reviewed the AfD and subsequent DR, I wonder if it would have been today, given current interpretation of policy. To me MacPherson is clearly notable in her own right (despite BLP1E delete votes that she was only notable for being Elle's sister or for the sex tape allegations.) and in more than a marginal way, winning awards for business, presenting a radio show, modelling, etc. In both the AfD and the DR the subject's request is given more weight than WP:BIODEL currently suggests should be given (though that policy didn't exist until later) and there is no consensus for deletion at the AfD and a consensus for overturning to keep at the DR. Out of interest does anyone know what the most prominent individual to request deletion was? and was it granted or denied? Lauren Conrad's request was a Snow Keep (on all 6 nominations) but that was apparently "requested on her behalf" each time. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:41, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You may be right. In the MacPherson case, I advised her during the discussion that she might be better off with a high quality semi-protected Misplaced Pages entry which noted the doubts about the authenticity of the tape, because at the very least it would push at least one of the porn sites off the front page of her google results. I could be persuaded either way, and her wishes do matter a great deal because she is the victim of the whole sex tape situation. (I.E. It's either a hoax, or it was maliciously released by someone). I respect the decision to delete (and so did she, at the time, and as far as I know she still does), and I think it would be inappropriate for anyone to recreate it because of this discussion. (That's very POINTy.) But if we reconsidered in the future, at some appropriate time, either of these deletions, I'd be fine with that as long as the discussion proceeded in a respectful thoughtful way without all the rancor that some people (on both sides) seem to bring to this issue. These issues will always be hard, and will always require a thoughtful and kind consideration of the full context.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo, your explanation of the events in that case was quite illuminating and responsible. I wish Misplaced Pages could address the situation in an article the same way. But I'll also say that I think that the article I saw yesterday had more than enough sources for independent notability without mentioning the hoax. Looking up her name in a current news search, I see she's still in the news now. Now that article is not a usable source for her biography, but it illustrates that people in Australia who read a source like this already know who she is. To me, that spells enduring notability that we should allow editors to document. Wnt (talk) 14:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo, imagine an encyclopedia where all BLP subjects had "a high quality semi-protected Misplaced Pages entry". (In Macpherson's case, I suspect you meant a fully-protected entry, but it's a moot point.) I am sympathetic to Macpherson's position, but I am also sympathetic to Hawkins'. Misplaced Pages does not need to have either one, if they do not wish to be included. At this point I'm just going to link to Damon Dash and leave the rest as an exercise for readers. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow. That Damon Dash article is a problem. But it's the kind of problem that illustrates why the community is better at handling these things than administrators. Anyone looking at this article should see that it has major BLP problems even I find fault with - it showcases allegations in the lead while practically ignoring the career that got him the fame, describes a 2004 lawsuit allegation without ever saying whether the accusation was sustained, dwells overmuch on DD172, (though that article, where those allegations and details belong, says too little about them). But when the Office took over, they blanked the article "temporarily" - as of last October - and so the last history version, with all that imbalance, is all people will ever see if they look. Bureaucracy is clunky. Just like individual editors, it can ride rough-shod over subjects. It would be better for Misplaced Pages to turn the article back over to the editors and see it cleaned up by normal editing processes, which we know people can and will do within a day. Wnt (talk) 16:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

One of the things I found mistaken was when it looked like the article might be deleted due to a simple please delete request, there has been issues with contributors and falsehoods in the article - there was a rush to go over it word by word so as to shout loudly we have studied this word by word and its all correct and we will watch it like hawks now and we will keep it at this standard forever, - this was imo completely missing the point - we have three million biographies many of them that no one is watching and the vast majority of them have never even had a close look - its just such a false representation of the whole project, focusing on a pin prick of low notable content, in some vain effort to keep it - what about all the other living people that just can't be bothered to complain and who quite rightly wouldn't want their life being afflicted by the Streisand effect and just choose not to look at their article. The whole vain effort to keep this article is an example of everything that is wrong with this project imo. Youreallycan 16:05, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd dispute that 3 million biographies statistic, on this project we have 3.9 million articles but a large proportion are not biographies. Perhaps half a million biographies of living people, and I'm not sure how many deceased, but not 2.5 million. ϢereSpielChequers 16:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it was a guess from my experience of the general figures. One million or a million and a half, here or there don't change basics. Youreallycan 16:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

By that argument, we'd have to delete all BLPs, because we can't guarantee that none of them will ever be vandalized. That's not very persuasive. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You miss the point - I am not asking to delete all those, or looking to persuade anybody about anything, that is something that needs discussion and WP:Pending changes is looking like being replaced - I am talking about this single article and the naval gazing ego fueled desire to keep it at any cost, against the wishes of a person, over years, of limited notability on an article that almost nobody is reading and which is little more educational or complete in his life story than his BBC profile.Youreallycan 16:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that Pending Changes is up and shuffling about the graveyard again. As the !vote going on, which I hadn't known about, apparently came pre-loaded with 60 supporters of permanently enacting it, I think this vote definitely needs broader attention! Wnt (talk) 17:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Its already publicized at every location it was allowed to be. Youreallycan 17:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there's any evidence for the implication you're making there, Wnt. I am vote number 19 and I can tell you I didn't have any prior notification or knowledge about the RfC. FormerIP (talk) 17:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I was going by a comment here - plausible given that the proposed draft had to come from a group of supporters somewhere. Wnt (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Going by? This is the comment from User:Ohms law - there is nothing in the comment to support the claim - Youreallycan

True, but I trust Ohm's law as a good editor. But not to hide behind his skirts, I did my own analysis just now of the edit pattern (figure above) counting the edits for each of the 13 days the vote has been open. Note that there was a huge sea of red those first two days, maybe 50 votes, count some on the third day ... then trailing to near equal numbers. I'd say Ohm's law looks pretty much correct here. Wnt (talk) 18:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

"early preponderance of red"- does not confer evil going on. - Good faith tells me that there was also previously a large number of editors that support the use of the tool in some way, so nothing has actually changed - they still do. Youreallycan 18:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The graph indicates to me that support for PC is stronger amongst editors who are either around more or, for better or worse, make their minds up more quickly. FormerIP (talk) 21:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

If the point was just this contested article and not all BLPs, why did you bring up "three million biographies" that "no one is watching", as well as "what about all the other living people that just can't be bothered to complain?" That makes your argument sound like it's about all BLPs. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes - its all about BLP articles, just my current focus is on this individual one. Its the falseness of the overall position that asserts keep this article is fantastically correct and every word its cited now compared to the mass of unwatched and uncited content about all the other low notable living people that proliferates the majority of en wikipedia BLP articles. Youreallycan 18:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay, you're not making much sense here. What, exactly, do you want to see done? All I'm getting from the above is that you don't like BLPs, because some of them may have vandalism due to lack of attention, but this particular one is getting too much attention? — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I hear two different things from supporters of Pending Changes. One is that the system will not hinder people from editing because it will only be placed where semi- or full- protection would totally block people from editing now. The other is that by installing it on all BLPs or all articles it will stop libel and improve the quality of the encyclopedia. Not both of these things are true. Wnt (talk) 20:52, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Although a minority may want to use PC all over the place, the draft policy which is being voted on prevents this, because it allows PC only to prevent disruption (i.e. only on pages that would currently get protection) and states that it can't be applied pre-emptively. FormerIP (talk) 21:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages should get its biographies sorted – either

• start registered editing for minor biographies,
• move such biographies to a different project (analogous to how material is stored in Commons, but appears here in Misplaced Pages),
• introduce flagged revisions, or
• make biography editing a separate user right.

Things like that. Editors may consider the Hawkins biography "fixed", but we have not fixed, or even tried to fix, the process that has led to the problems with it, and which leads to constant and recurring problems in other biographies. --JN466 23:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem is, it's very hard to determine how closely a particular page is being watched. For instance, the Fred Phelps article contained an allegation of some sort (I don't remember exactly what it was) for 5 years until someone noticed it, despite being on plenty of people's watchlists. Conversely, Zoya Phan is not watched by enough people to make the list (that means under 30, I'd be startled if it was even 3), but you'd be hard pressed to find an article more carefully monitored than that one; I check it over every editing session. Though there haven't been any issues with vandalism there, I did remove a copyvio image very quickly and got it deleted on Commons. I think we could definitely do a better job of organizing articles in Category:Living persons, but ultimately I think there's a certain amount of it that's just inevitable. Let's not lose sight of the fact that we are only a website, and we're never going to be perfect with anything we do; we should certainly try for it, but incidents happen, and the occasional egg on our faces isn't going to kill us. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

(ec)You know, I'd almost let you have it - just go ahead and delete every single biography from Einstein and Obama. It might be a tolerable blood sacrifice, if the deletionists would go away to your biographic utopia and let us add any source we can find to every other article. But I'm sure they'd only be back the next day, saying we can't write about medicine, we can't write about corporations, we can't write about drugs, we can't write about the ending to The Mousetrap, and only a special group of bosses can tell us when we can and can't say what the world's media are talking about. Their emptiness cannot be filled. Wnt (talk) 00:27, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Just noting that a Misplaced Pages administrator is now likening the Hawkins situation to Charles Manson being angry at editors for reporting on his multiple murders, while another Wikipedian opines, "If Idi Amin were alive I am sure he would start by editing his own page...he would then move onto lobbying Jimbo Wales...I'm sure he would eat some wikipedians...but I'm not convinced we would allow him to influence his wikipage by getting editors banned." AN. JN466 02:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It's hyperbole; an example of what the position could turn into if applied. I don't want to see that happen; in absolutely no way am I comparing Hawkins to Charles Manson. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:36, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I would guess those comments have come about because, according to Tarc's proposal, we actually would delete Manson's bio if he asked us to.

Honestly, Tarc, isn't it time to sit down and have a think? FormerIP (talk) 13:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

If Charlie asks, then why not? We're not removing knowledge from humanity...there is still plenty out there to read and research Charles Manson, much of it a lot better than what can be found written by anonymous volunteers here. And in the place of Charles Manson is a link to the outside world. As soon as he kicks the bucket though, the article could come right back. Tarc (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

You've got mail (from Claritas)

(Post requested by Claritas in this edit.)  Hazard-SJ  ㋡  23:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Test, just a test

Hello. And Bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.17.97.23 (talk) 01:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why you say good bye, I say hello. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Draft for Verifiability policy lead

Hi. As it falls into complete obscurity, I thought I would show you a proposed draft of the lead of WP:V from the Mediation Cabal work. Not sure if it would be considered any good by the community but it seemed to address issues of the old lead that you wanted changed.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 13:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Not bad. I'd still like it to say something such as, "The mere claimed or apparent truth of proposed content is not sufficient; editors must be able to support the information with a reliable published source. In situations where even reliable sources are demonstrably incorrect, editors must carefully attempt to address the situation by finding other published sources which support the correct information." Ocaasi 14:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Except that what you describe is not how we actually work. It's not at all uncommon that we'll accept that in a specific case, a reliable source is just wrong. This idea that we are never allowed to use our own consensus judgement about truth is just not consistent with the history or contemporary workings of Misplaced Pages. And it is epistemologically/philosophically absurd!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is what Verifiability should say:

The principle of verifiability on Misplaced Pages means that content selected for inclusion - using common sense, content policies and good editorial reasoning - should be reflected in reliable, published sources. However, the fact that a piece of content can be verified is not a supportive argument for inclusion. Particular scrutiny should be paid to the reliability of sources reflecting content to ensure that it is accurate.

(this also avoids the rather {{facepalm}} issue of using the term "verifiable" in the definition of what "Verifiability" is ;)). I've never quite "got" the argument-ad-absurdum that has gone on around Truth/Not Truth - because it's such a bad expression of what we do. --Errant 14:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree!!!!!Mugginsx (talk) 14:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually; I read into this whole fall out and the current text at WP:V.. I won't be too critical except to put another {{facepalm}}. ahem. Anyway, it strikes me the whole TRUTH nonsense is misleading because it has nothing to do with verifiability, I'm not sure why it is there. On the other hand I suppose we don't have a general content policy (where it should be). It always felt like a sentiment tacked into the wrong place. --Errant 14:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Before I lose interest in the idea :) I jotted down some rough ideas for a general content policy here: User:ErrantX/Essays/Content. I'd love to see what other interested parties could contribute to the idea. --Errant 14:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Not to undermind your serious words, but I always thought the facepalm looked more like an ear! Facepalm

My Wish for Misplaced Pages

If every editor found an article they liked and praised the editors on the talkpage, what a happier place this would be! I am not talking about friends praising friends. I am also not talking about WikiLove - just more positive attitudes. Just find an article you like and praise the editors. If you have a valid criticism, do it in a kindly manner along with praise for what is good in the article. If there is nothing good about the article, praise the editor for trying and encourage him to read guidelines and try again or suggest mentoring. Editors are much more likely to listen if it is done in this manner. Incivility is killing Misplaced Pages. A Positive outlook can solve all problems anywhere and anytime. A negative one solves nothing and, worse, is infectious. Those that say there are no more good articles or good editors are, in my opinion, the anti-Misplaced Pages and may just be talking about themselves. These words are dangerous because they can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not." -- George Bernard Shaw. That was the principle upon which I believe the Founder created Misplaced Pages.

A Positive outlook can solve all problems anywhere and anytime.

No, that's a total crock. A positive attitude won't help someone dying of thirst in the desert. Nor will simply having a positive attitude cure disease. "Happy thoughts" by themselves don't do anything, they're just a platitude. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Poisonous words from an otherwise good editor. You have proved my point I think. Mugginsx (talk) 16:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't Bight The Ips

What are you going to do about users being mean to Ips,treating them like their not welcome,cause it is almost like racism? May I suggest a WP:DON'TBITETHEIPS (Misplaced Pages:Don't Bight The Ips) 74.163.16.52 00:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.16.52 (talk)

Definitely, but why use an IP? Mugginsx (talk) 14:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Muggins, that's just the kind of blatant prejudice my people have come to expect from you logged-ins. ;) FormerIP (talk) 14:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It was a simple question and I was honestly curious. OK, I get it now, it was a setup and I fell right into it. A gotcha banner for you. Mugginsx (talk) 15:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think people should be mean to anyone. I do think people should get accounts if they'd like to make friends and be remembered by others. The thing about editing as an ip number is that people don't really remember them well from one interaction to the next. Additionally, I'm happy to say, in an encyclopedia editing community, spelling counts! So, people will tend to be more friendly if you write carefully. We shouldn't be mean to people for poor spelling abilities, of course. But naturally, it's annoying to us when someone hasn't taken the time to look over their writing for spelling problems.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh I'm remembered by others alright,But sir it is not just that,users tell Ips "go away" or call them "Drive by users",it is internet racism,and they know it is wrong.~76naMsliaT~--74.163.16.52 (talk) 15:32, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I think it is pretty silly to call it 'racism'. One of the reasons people unfortunately harden into bad attitudes towards ip numbers is that they say silly things a lot.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Best. Reply. Ever. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Some admins want to just ban Ips for the word of a user,It is an unfair court case. Also I'm sure you could have a Misplaced Pages:Don't Bight The Ips, if they have something like Misplaced Pages:Don't-give-a-fuckism.74.163.16.52 (talk) 16:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

For a bit of perspective, please see User:Salvidrim/Tailsman67. Favonian (talk) 16:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Well,well, I guest "The Theory of Usertivie "work,I served my time.I changed.74.163.16.52 (talk) 16:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

What's the best course of action?

I've become aware of a BLP that was deleted back in December 2009 as a creation by a banned user in violation of the ban. The subject, who had nothing to do with anything, feels a little bit sad (my interpretation) that this happened. As far as I can tell, the subject is a valid subject for a BLP entry. The deleted article seems fine, a bit stubby but otherwise fine.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd say: Undelete it if you can vouch for the content - especially given the length of time since deletion. The principle of deleting banned users contributions comes out of WP:DENY - but based on past discussions (note: just what I have picked up) if an editor in good standing vouches for the information and restores it no one blinks. --Errant 15:33, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. I very much support WP:DENY and as it has been more than 2 years, I think the denial has either been effective already or didn't help. It'll take a few days until I have time to review the content personally, so I wonder if there's a good place to ask others to help. Would this be appropriate for deletion review?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The specific policy wording is here (I had to locate it because I've never read it before). The implication seems to be... if it was G5'd, the content was good, and you will take responsibility for it once restored... undelete :) I think deletion review would largely be bureaucracy. Again, just my 2 cents. --Errant 16:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• DRV doesn't seem appropriate because the deletion was proper. If you userfy the article to me after your review, I would be happy to review and improve, and let anyone comment if necessary. An AfD can be initiated if notability is in dispute based on what we can create.--Milowent • 16:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Btw, there's also Misplaced Pages:Article Incubator, but my experience is that articles linger outside mainspace unless someone volunteers to take ones on.--Milowent • 16:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• I've never agreed with that part of the banning policy. If the banned user was known for copyright violations, that's one thing, but to destroy completely functional articles just because we don't want to give "credit" to the user, per DENY, just seems overwhelmingly stupid. What if the banned user was using an account that remained undetected for a significant amount of time and created a large amount of articles in that time that, functionally, has no issues? Sure, sure, you can say that people can vouch for them individually, but people only do that very rarely in the scheme of things and all the rest of that positive content is then destroyed. This just seems to be in direct violation to our entire purpose to me. Silverseren 16:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• WP:REFUND might handle such requests as well. I don't use it very often, and I expect that such restorations would largely depend on the admin handling the particular request at the time. I agree that G5'ed content can be "proxied" by any editor in good standing. ArbCom has repeatedly endorsed the proxying of articles written by vexatious banned editors to en.wiki by editors in good standing on en.wiki. (As a side note, the volunteers who did this at first seemed to become fatigued by the effort involved) Jclemens (talk) 16:48, 5 April 2012 (UTC)