Misplaced Pages

• Skip to open disputes
• skip to newest thread
• (purge cache)

• Administrators
  • Main
  • Incidents
• Bots
• Bureaucrats
• Centralized discussion
• Closure requests
• Education
• Interface admins
• Main Page errors
• Open proxies
• VRT
• Oversight
• User permissions

• Biographies of living persons
• Copyrights
  • Questions on media
  • Problems
• Dispute resolution
• External links
• Fringe theories
• Neutral point of view
• Original research
• Pending changes
• Reliable sources
• Resource requests
• Scalable vector graphics
• Spam
  • Blacklist
  • Whitelist
• Style
• Titleblacklist
• Translation

• History merges
• Mergers
• Splits
• Moves
• Protection
• Importation
• XfD
  • Articles
  • Redirects
  • Categories
  • Templates
  • Files
  • Miscellany
• Undeletion

• Conflict of interest
• Contributor copyright
• Edit warring and 3RR
• Sanctions
  • Personal restrictions
  • General sanctions
  • Contentious topics
• Sockpuppets
• Usernames (Requests for comment)
• Vandalism

• Arbitration
  • Committee noticeboard
  • Requests
  • Enforcement
• Edit filters
  • Requested
  • False positives
• Questions
  • Help desk
  • Teahouse
  • Reference desk
  • New articles
• Requests for comment
• Village pump
  • Policy
  • Technical
  • Proposals
  • Idea lab
  • WMF
  • Miscellaneous
• WikiProject proposals
• Discussions for discussion

If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

• This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
• We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves.
• The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor.
• Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice.
• Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session.
• Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc.

If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you.

• This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy.
• For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page.

We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

• Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants.
• Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Misplaced Pages, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute.
• Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits.

• To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}}
• To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20
21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30
31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40
41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50
51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60
61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70
71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80
81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90
91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100
101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110
111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120
121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130
131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140
141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150
151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160
161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170
171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180
181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190
191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200
201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210
211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220
221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230
231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240
241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250
251, 252

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Eternalism (philosophy of time) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Talk:Four-dimensionalism (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

User:Hypnosifl added an S.M.Carroll reference to eternalism in support of the statement that "It is sometimes referred to as the "block time" or "block universe" theory". Unfortunately, he also included WP:OR in the ref: ""Eternalism, "block universe" and "block time" are understood as synonymous terms by philosophers". Later he claims that Carroll was "not good" (because "It" was in reference to a Kurt Vonnegut example). That's misleading however, because Carroll does go on to specify eternalism... While it's clearly amenable with a 4D view of time, sources offer examples of eternalism that predate a "block universe" 4D view of time, and they stop short of equating the two as "synonymous". I've asked User:Hypnosifl several times not to accommodate his additions to the lede by removing existing material.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Hypnosifl (talk · contribs)
• Machine Elf 1735 (talk · contribs)

Reviving the dead thread Talk:Four-dimensionalism#Elephant in the room - possible redundancy, User:Hypnosifl proactively set me up as an opponent to the edits he intended to make at Eternalism (philosophy of time).

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Eternalism (philosophy of time), Talk:Four-dimensionalism}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

see TL;DR at Talk:Four-dimensionalism#Elephant in the room - possible redundancy and edit summaries at Eternalism (philosophy of time) and User talk:Hypnosifl#Edit Warring.

• How do you think we can help?

Do you think you can help? If so, how?

Machine Elf  21:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

How do you think DRN can help? If so, how? is the question. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 18:27, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Eternalism (philosophy of time), Talk:Four-dimensionalism discussion

It sounds like weasel words to say 'some' and not specify who. Also sounds like WP:OR, we need names and sources. If it cannot be backed up then it should be removed. I'm not going to jump into some esoteric article and begin dictating the matter, but if you can't provide a reliable source (anyone, doesn't matter who), then I wouldn't include it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I hear what you're saying but just to clarify, the weasel word is in the source and this is the lede... specific advocates are given in the body. I'm not disputing that some, (∃, as opposed to all, ∀), philosophers see the two as largely similar or even synonymous. Those philosophers would not allude to any historical "eternalism" that predates the concept of spacetime, for example, but others do.—Machine Elf  22:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

In that case I would note that were appropriate for context, even if they are different views or predating current thinking it does not discount the views themselves for having a similar appearance or association. It is good to provide both sides even if they seem silly when a close connection or similarity exists. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, Hypnosifl can explain for himself, but he wanted to say is that eternalism is "synonymous" with block universe theory. He can't source it because apparently no one says that. There is no other dispute.—Machine Elf  01:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Note that after MachineElf objected to "synonymous", I immediately changed it to "Eternalism, defined as the view that there are no ontological differences between past, present and future, is also known as the "block universe" theory", directly reflecting the language of the quoted sources (all written by professional philosophers), and all my further edits have avoided "synonymous", so I don't think it's reasonable to treat this as the basis for the dispute. My original reason for using "synonymous" was that I thought any reasonable parsing of the statements by the sources would indicate they were treating them as synonymous (obviously, any sourced claim in a wikipedia article that doesn't directly quote the source requires some small amount of parsing to understand that the sentence in the article is an accurate paraphrase of the accompanying source). Here we are talking about professional philosophers discussing the formal terms "eternalism" and "block time", and the sources say the following:

'The third and more popular theory is that there are no significant ontological differences among present, past, and future because the differences are merely subjective. This view is called “the block universe theory” or “eternalism.”' (source)

'Block universe theory: Metaphysical theory that implies all of the past, present, and future is real. The name derives from the fact that a Minkowski diagram would represent events as points in a block if space and time were to be finite in all directions. Also called "eternalism."' (source)

'It is commonly held that relativity favors the "block universe" view (known also as "eternalism"), according to which all events enjoy the same ontological status regardless of their location' (source)

'It does not help, either, that there is a tendency to conflate eternalism — the four-dimensional "block universe" view — with causal determinism.' (source)

When philosophers say that a given view, first identified with formal name "A", is "also known as" formal name "B", or say things like 'this view is called "A", or "B"', I think it's a perfectly reasonable parsing to say that A and B are just different terms for the exact same philosophical view, i.e. synonymous. But since the sources did not use the precise word synonymous and MachineElf objected, I figured a reasonable compromise would be the "Eternalism ... is also known as the block universe theory", directly reflecting the "also called" and "known also as" in two of the sources above. MachineElf continues to object, insisting that the sentence be replaced by a weaker claim that eternalism is "sometimes referred to as the block time or block universe perspective", presumably based on MachineElf's feeling that for at least some philosophers there is a conceptual distinction between the terms as indicated by his/her comment above "I'm not disputing that some, (∃, as opposed to all, ∀), philosophers see the two as largely similar or even synonymous. Those philosophers would not allude to any historical "eternalism" that predates the concept of spacetime, for example, but others do." But MachineElf hasn't actually provided a single example of a source written by a professional philosopher that says this--the source after his/her "sometimes" version is a book by the physicist Sean Carroll, and Carroll does not actually say that there is any distinction between the terms (he first introduces the terms "block time" and "block universe" to describe the view that all times are equally real, then later he says "The viewpoint we've been describing, on the other hand, is (sensibly enough) known as "eternalism," suggesting he does not see any distinction. For further discussion between MachineElf and I about the Carroll quote, see this section of my user talk page (I have requested MachineElf's permission to move it to the Eternalism talk page so that others will be more likely to see it and weigh in). Hypnosifl (talk) 13:17, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, it might help if MachineElf could expand a little on the comment that "I'm not disputing that some, (∃, as opposed to all, ∀), philosophers see the two as largely similar or even synonymous. Those philosophers would not allude to any historical "eternalism" that predates the concept of spacetime, for example, but others do." Are you suggesting that if there was a historical philosopher who had made arguments about all times being equally real in a time period that "predates the concept of spacetime", then no one would call them an advocate of the "block universe", and therefore that the modern philosophers who define "eternalism" to be synonymous with "block universe" would also not call them a historical advocate of "eternalism"? If so, I think that's a misunderstanding--while the origin of the term "block universe" may have to do with relativity, this debate is about what philosophical ideas the terms denote for modern philosophers, and the ones I quoted suggest they are both understood to denote nothing more than the idea that all times have equal ontological status. So if some ancient philosopher, like Dogen, expressed a view that seemed to be saying all times have equal ontological status, it would be correct to say that "they advocated the view that is today described by the term 'block universe'", even though they would have been unaware of the idea of time as a dimension in a four-dimensional block. The fact that the words of the term may have been inspired by 20th century ideas has nothing to do with what philosophers understand the term to mean in a technical sense.Hypnosifl (talk) 15:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I don’t understand the issue here as it seems clear cut to me. What became known as the “block universe.” as first formulated by Minkowski based upon his erstwhile math student’s illustrious work, is a construct of physics, while “eternalism” is a philosophical derivation. Although both Minkowski and Einstein were eternalists, they stopped short of actually stating that the theory demanded eternalism, though Einstein came close to stating such in his fifth appendix to the fifteenth edition of his book: Relativity: The Special and General Theory. He stated: “It appears…more natural to think of physical reality as a four-dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three-dimensional existence.”

One of the first to discern the true depth of Minkowski’s arguments and his true intent was the German mathematician Hermann Weyl who about two decades after Minkowski delivered his famous speech made a defining observation regarding what came to be known as the block universe that has significant relevance to what you are asking here. He observed: “The objective world simply is, it does not happen.”

Therefore, the concepts of the block universe and eternalism are certainly not synonymous in form anymore than an American is synonymous with America. Whether this is also true in substance is somewhat debatable. However, a good case might be made that the two concepts are synonymous in substance. What seems to constitute the final nail in the coffin for the presentist position is perhaps the most salient prediction of STR, the relativity of simultaneity. It is simply not tenable to account for this within a three-dimensional paradigm of reality (with time being an independent entity rather than embedded with the three dimensions of space to form the four-dimensional, holistic entity now called spacetime). For an excellent discussion of this point, I would commend to you the following paper by a philosopher at a Canadian university whose research and insights I have found to be invaluable in formulating my own opinions.

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2408/1/Petkov-BlockUniverse.pdf

Nevertheless, the proposition that the ‘block universe” demands eternalism is not universally accepted. Therefore, an editor is wrong in removing material that casts doubt upon the proposition in favor of inserting material which at least implies that there is no credible dissent to the proposition.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2012 (UTC)'

HistoryBuff, does your statement that the block universe is a "construct of physics" mean that you are saying that you understand the term "block universe" to be one that does not necessarily refer to a philosophical claim about the ontology of different times (treating them as equally real), but rather can be understand to refer just to the physical/mathematical content of Minkowski's formulation of relativity (which, as a physical theory, cannot properly be understood to make any philosophical claims about ontology, even if it may suggest that eternalism is a better fit for the physics than presentism)? If that is what you're saying, can you provide any sources that say the same thing? The paper you link to doesn't seem to say this, although it talks about various physicists drawing ontological conclusions from the physics--in the introduction it says that taking the block universe view means "regarding the universe as a timelessly existing four-dimensional world", with "timelessly existing" being an ontological claim. I have never seen "block universe" used to refer only to physical claims about relativity, or to mathematical formulations of relativity, although the name is inspired by Minkowski's version as MachineElf demonstrated to me (pointing to this reference). On the other hand, if you're saying that you just don't distinguish between the physical content of Minkowski's work and the ontological claims of the "block universe" view, I think that's a view philosophers would disagree with, even if physicists themselves might sometimes fail to distinguish them. The author of the paper you link to does seem to think that there is a unique ontology compatible with the physics seen in relativity, but he does argue this conclusion at length rather than saying that relativity itself is an ontological theory (and always seems to use "block universe" to refer to the ontological conclusions, not the physics itself...nor does he mention the word "eternalism" so that paper can't be used as evidence for a difference in meaning between "eternalism" and "block universe"). Moreover, he admits he is in the minority in this view: see p. 19, where he writes It is a widely accepted view that "relativistic mechanics does not carry a particular ontological interpretation upon its sleeve". I would say this widely accepted view is the correct one, since nothing in the physics would change if there was an "ontologically preferred frame" which was completely indistinguishable from other frames by experiment, but a discussion about this issue would be getting away from the question of whether there are any reliable sources that argue for any difference between the terms "block universe" and "eternalism". Hypnosifl (talk) 14:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The former. Einstein thought he was theorizing a new paradigm describing the nature of realty and not some philosophical treatise. In fact, as is commonly known, it was Minkowski who discerned the deeper implications of the great man’s work; a discernment that Einstein was reluctant to embrace at first. He eventually did. You want me to find a source for this assertion? If so, I shall try to dig one up but I can’t remember exactly where I read it first.

I wrote a philosophical proof of a creator (of some kind, not necessarily God in the traditional sense; it could just as well be an extra-dimensional computer program) based upon the fact that I don’t see how the eternalist model of the block universe (which I am convinced is correct assuming a materialist reality) can accommodate causality from within, notwithstanding the fact that it seems absurd on an empirical basis to deny causality exists. Therefore, causality must have been operative from without in a higher dimensional time. It is difficult to pin down exactly what Einstein’s ontological views were, except to say he was certainly not a believer in God. Whether he had been an atheist or an agnostic is open to debate. Therefore, he certainly wouldn’t have agreed with my proof. Still, it is based upon the apparent implications of his theory.

This is no different than discussing the implications of Copernicus’s heliocentric cosmology which ticked off a lot of churchmen wedded to a literal interpretation of certain Biblical events. Copernicus was not making any theological or philosophical statement. He was simply putting forth a new physical paradigm of reality.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 15:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

You want me to find a source for this assertion?

Yes, that would be helpful. But I'm still confused about what you're asserting--you say "Einstein thought he was theorizing a new paradigm describing the nature of realty and not some philosophical treatise", but "nature of reality" sounds like a claim about ontology, not about physics alone free from any philosophical claims. So when you say "the former", I'm not clear on how your statement relates to my original question which asked if you understood "block universe" to sometimes refer to the physical content of relativity or its mathematical formulation, free of any ontological claims about whether all times are equally "real". Are you saying "yes" to that question (i.e., saying some professional philosophers do use "block universe" to refer to a non-philosophical theory of physics), or are you saying that the people who came up with the term "block universe" just didn't distinguish between physical claims and ontological claims, and understood relativity itself to be making ontological claims about all times being equally real? Hypnosifl (talk) 15:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, what I mean, at least, is that Einstein, through algebra, positioned a theory with predictions that were or might some day become testable such as time dilation, length contraction and the relativity of simultaneity. At this point in its formulation, it was a mere mathematical construct with no ontological overtones. It was Minkowski adding a geometrical view of spacetime that placed ontological overtones to the theory that Weyl later spelled out. Although it appears to be incomprehensible to the human intellect (at least), what I would term the “ultimate mystery” is that somewhere within reality (either within our dimension or one a priori to ours)someone or something must “just is” (exists eternally with no beginning; timelessly) which forms the ground of existence which cannot be further sublated. (“I am who am.”) To Weyl, that would be the universe itself, the sum total of MEST as opposed to a theist’s God. In my proof, I dispute this contention as illogical because of the obvious existence of causality that does not seem to be able to be accounted for within an eternalist paradigm.

Regarding a source for Einstein not at first accepting Minkowki’s interpretation as literal, it is stated in the Wiki article for Minkowski that Einstein viewed his former teacher’s model as a mathematical trick. A blogger I found states the same, though I can’t pin an actual source at the moment, maybe a biography of Einstein. I think it is pretty much common knowledge which is why perhaps it is not sourced in the Wiki article.

This particular blogger is like most of us here, a very intelligent layman to the fields of physics and philosophy. Aside from iterating what I discussed above, he spends a lot of time in this post discussing his views on the differentiation of mathematical constructs and reality. I don’t agree with him in his article’s entirety.

Here’s the link:

http://enquiriesnw.com/2012/05/28/space-time-and-reality/HistoryBuff14 (talk) 22:09, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hypnosifl, I've explained more than once:

He introduced the concept with a popular example from fiction. He most certainly did name "this lofty timeless Tralfamadorian perch", sometimes called "block time" or "block universe", and in due course, he went on to say that he had been speaking about eternalism. It's WP:TENDENTIOUS to claim there's nothing in Carroll 'that clearly contradicts the idea that "eternalism" and "block universe" are understood by philosophers to refer to the selfsame philosophical theory'. But if 'sometimes' didn't make it clear enough, he belabors the point: 'Opinions differ, of course. The struggle to understand time is a puzzle of long standing, and what is "real" and what is "useful" have been very much up for debate.' Yes, he does say that eternalism is sometimes called "block time" or "block universe"... as opposed to Augustine's presentism: "The viewpoint we've been describing, on the other hand, is (sensibly enough) known as "eternalism," which holds that past, present, and future are all equally real." The so-called '"It is sometimes known as block time" edit' was preexisting text and your bold subsequent edit has been challenged, see WP:BRD.

— User talk:Hypnosifl#Edit Warring

No philosopher who traces eternalism back to Parmenides would seriously claim that Minkowski "block time/block universe" originated in the 5th century BCE. Again, it's merely WP:TENDENTIOUS to repeat ad nauseum that you don't need a cite.—Machine Elf  21:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello. I am a volunteer here at DRN. I've flagged this dispute for attention - sorry that we haven't had time to look at this yet. I ask you all to hold off on discussion until myself or another volunteer comments further. Thanks. Steven Zhang 13:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Taking a look on it. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 18:23, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

If there were a consensus to support Hyponosifl's attempted rollback of the lede to a point prior to the dispute, I wouldn't object, but his own cites argue against his position and whereas they're arguably too numerous for the lede, removing valid cites seems like the wrong way to go... At any rate, if we could avoid confusing the issue with unrelated edits, that might help the volunteers here hone in on the dispute. Would page protection be in order, while discussion is on hold?—Machine Elf  23:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I've requested page protection as Hypnosifl insists on making extensive edits while this discussion is on hold.—Machine Elf  23:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I suggested rolling back the lede to the point immediately before the dispute began as a temporary solution until a consensus is formed, since it doesn't seem fair to leave it on either of our modified versions if the other disagrees with the modifications. I don't think my unrelated edits confuse the issue since they have nothing to do with the subject of the dispute (namely, whether any modern philosophers understand there to be a difference in meaning between the terms "eternalism" and "block universe"), and I didn't have a problem with the unrelated edits MachineElf made to the "Determinism and Indeterminism" section while the dispute was already going on (see this 27 July edit by MachineElf), so it seems unfair that he/she wants to preserve the "Determinism and Indeterminism" edit while making a blanket rule that I can't make any further edits to any sections (even if MachineElf has no specific objections to the content of these edits). I am not aware of any wikipedia rule that says that when a dispute is in progress, the people involved are forbidden from making any further changes to the page even if these changes have nothing to do with what they were disputing. Hypnosifl (talk) 00:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I've tried to preserve your additional cites each time, but I see no reason for a flurry of presumably unrelated changes... the direct quote of Popper regarding his discussion with Einstein is related: ‘the view that the world was a four-dimensional Parmenidean block universe in which change was a human illusion, or very nearly so. (He agreed that his had been his view, and while discussing it I called him "Parmenides".)’.—Machine Elf  00:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring with misleading edit summaries.—Machine Elf  00:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

As I just commented on the talk page, I don't see how that edit was edit warring, or how it contained a misleading summary.Hypnosifl (talk) 01:04, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

You don't see how 3 reverts in less than 6 hours based solely on your unilateral "temporary" solution could be construed as edit warring? You don't see how your edit summary is misleading? "no justification for restoring your version of the lede from the pre-dispute version"... I provided justification 1) in both of my edit summaries, 2) on the article talk page, 3) on this page, and 4) on the request for page protection. You may not think it's sufficient justification, but it's misleading to revert a third time claiming "no justification" as if I haven't said a word. Frankly, calling it "my version" is a laugh, as it's merely an attempt to incorporate your cites, and where verifiable, your changes to the article text. Again, I'm really not surprised you want to remove your cites, as they don't support your position. I added the direct quote from Popper (which would actually support your position, unless it's taken tongue-in-cheek), prior to your participation in dispute resolution and unlike your recent changes, it was not added simultaneously with a unilateral change to the lede. Very simply, I asked you not to "make changes while the dispute resolution has been put on hold", and you've repeatedly refused to comply.—Machine Elf  04:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It's "your version" with respect to the one issue that is the source of this entire dispute--namely, the fact that you continually reverted my edits saying that eternalism is "also known as" block time (even though two of the sources I posted used near-identical wording), changing it to "sometimes known as", apparently because of your belief (which you have never provided a single source to confirm) that they can only be equated "sometimes" because block time is also "sometimes" defined to mean something a bit different than eternalism, with the block time definition supposedly involving 20th century conceptions of "spacetime" while the eternalism definition does not (as seen in your comment above, I'm not disputing that some, (∃, as opposed to all, ∀), philosophers see the two as largely similar or even synonymous. Those philosophers would not allude to any historical "eternalism" that predates the concept of spacetime, for example, but others do.) If you could provide a source for this claim, this whole dispute could be easily resolved, as my opinion on this issue could be easily changed with an example of a single professional philosopher specifying that he/she uses the terms to mean different things.

— Hypnosifl (07:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)), — (continues after insertion below.)

I'm not the only user to disagree with Hypnosifl's WP:BOLD attempt to remove, contrary to the source he, himself, provided, the preexisting language that eternalism is sometimes called "block universe" or "block time". Again, he WP:TENDENTIOUSLY mischaracterizes a simple issue of WP:V as "apparently because of belief" which, needless to say, I would have "never provided a single source to confirm"... Despite his egregious number of citations, he has not provided a source that says it's "always" called that... nothing that contradicts his original source's assertion that it is "sometimes" called that. No one is saying eternalism is not "also known as" block universe or block time, "sometimes" at least... His own sources make it clear that the "block" in "block universe"/"block time" refers to Minkowski's 20th century conception of spacetime, (while some playfully flirt with the anachronism of Minkowski spacetime originating in the 5th century BC via Parmenides). Given the dissenting source that he, himself, provided, I'm merely disputing that it's verifiable all philosophers see them as synonymous, tout court.—Machine Elf  10:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Until the dispute is resolved, though, it seems unfair to say that the version left on the page should be the one that is "yours" with respect to the central issue being disputed here. That's why I suggested the temporary solution of reverting to the earlier version of the lede that neither of us had written while we waited for the dispute to be resolved; the first of the three edits of mine you mentioned above was doing this, I'd hardly call it "edit warring" to revert to a neutral version of the lede, especially since I had proposed this on the talk page a little more than 22 hours earlier. But then after I made some other changes to the rest of the article (unrelated to our dispute, and not changes that you have raised any specific objections to) you reverted all of the changes including the change to a more neutral lede, so my second edit was restoring the neutral lede and explaining what I had done in the edit note, as well as pointing out that the other changes I made were unrelated to our dispute so there seemed no good reason for you to revert them. Again I don't see this as edit warring, because I thought there was a decent chance you had misunderstood the changes I had made, not realizing that my change to the lede and my changes to the rest of the article were completely neutral with regard to the subject of our dispute.

— Hypnosifl (07:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)), — (continues after insertion below.)

Please note they're both "mine", ‘with respect to the central issue being disputed here’, because the version Hypnosifl is demanding also says "sometimes". Although there are too many cites for something so trivial, I think it's a shame to remove every one of them, and I don't condone his unilateral "temporary solution". While confusing the issue with simultaneous edits to other parts of the article, and having received no response as to whether his proposal would be "acceptable as a temporary solution", he reverted back to the unsourced edition 3 times in less than 6 hours, and argued about it non-stop thereafter: because it's not edit warring if I might have misunderstood the neutrality of all his edits, for example...—Machine Elf  10:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Then you reverted the whole thing again, in spite of the fact that you had said on the talk page "I don't have a problem with rolling back the lede to the point just prior to your first edit if there's a consensus for it". Based on that, I figured that when your two edit notes said "please do not make a series of extensive changes to the article while dispute resolution is pending" and "please do *not* make changes while the dispute resolution has been put on hold", the "extensive changes" you talked about referred to the additional new paragraphs I had added to the rest of the article, not the reversion of the lede to a pre-dispute version which you claimed to have no problem with. Since I didn't think those edit notes were referring to the lede, that's why I said you had provided "no justification" for reverting my change to the lede. And that's why I made that third edit where I restored the pre-dispute lede but didn't attempt to restore my additions to the rest of the article until a decision was reached about blocking all further changes to the article (in spite of the fact that my additions were unrelated to the dispute, and you provided no link to any wiki rules saying that editors involved in a dispute should avoid making edits to the rest of the article that don't involve the subject of their dispute, and if such a rule existed you would have been violating it anyway--your comment above that you added the Popper material prior to my posting in the dispute resolution thread myself doesn't really explain how this isn't a double standard, given that you had already started the dispute resolution process yourself at that point). If you want to say that your edit notes requesting I not make any changes were meant to include reverting the lede to the pre-dispute version, hopefully you can at least see how I might be genuinely confused (rather than being intentionally "misleading") given your comment on the talk page about having "no problem" with temporarily reverting the lede in this way.

— Hypnosifl (07:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)), — (continues after insertion below.)

He conveniently ignores the part about consensus... but it's correct that I ‘provided no link to any wiki rules saying that editors involved in a dispute should avoid making edits to the rest of the article’ when the volunteers ask them not to even continue the discussion until they get a chance to catch up. Apart from the contorted rationalization via putting different words in my mouth, it's false that ‘if such a rule existed would have been violating it anyway’. I'm merely saying that if the discussion is on hold, it goes without saying that one should hold off on unilateral edits too. Finally, I've never claimed Hypnosifl was ‘being intentionally "misleading"’, just that his edit summaries, excuses, etc. are, in fact, misleading.—Machine Elf  10:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Again, I'm really not surprised you want to remove your cites, as they don't support your position.

This is the second time you've suggested that I wanted to revert to the pre-dispute lede because I secretly realized the sources supported your position, despite the fact that I have already denied that this is the reason and explained my specific objections to your arguments for saying the sources support your position (objections which you said you won't respond to on the talk page while the dispute resolution process is on hold), seems rather like a rather disrespectful speculation about my personal motives, and perhaps represents an attempt to taunt or bait me. Please keep in mind Misplaced Pages:Civility, in which the following types of behaviors are strongly discouraged: "personal attacks, rudeness, disrespectful comments, and aggressive behaviours—when such behavior disrupts the project and leads to unproductive stressors and conflict." And of course, if you think I have been personally disrespectful towards you in some way (as opposed to just disagreeing with you about editing issues), please say something. Hypnosifl (talk) 07:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Although he hadn't made that claim in reference to his "temporary solution", I am willing to stipulate that he still has no idea the sources argue strongly against his WP:OR by providing counter examples. My position is not the opposite of that WP:OR, and it's ridiculous to suggest an WP:RS would directly address WP:OR, particularly WP:OR that's trivially false apart from some qualified sense. At any rate, I've certainly never promised him responses to his objections pending the status of the dispute resolution process and I don't see how assuming intellectual competence ‘seems rather like a rather disrespectful speculation about personal motives and perhaps represents an attempt to taunt or bait’ him... but that was a prelude to specious accusations of incivility and personal attacks. I most certainly do think he's been personally disrespectful, despite repeated requests that he stop mischaracterizing my intentions, stop putting words in my mouth, stop referring to me altogether... to which he replied: ‘I suppose as long as you don't plan to edit the statements in the opening paragraph of Eternalism_(philosophy_of_time) saying that eternalism is synonymous with the 4D block universe view, then your opinion on this issue doesn't have any further relevance to editing, so in that case I'm happy to drop it.’—Machine Elf  10:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I am another dispute resolution volunteer. Ebe123 has already volunteered to take a look at this dispute, but can you guys please hold off on further discussion here until they (or another one of us) has done so? If you're only talking with each other, you might as well do it on the article talk page. If you're making the same arguments without convincing each other, then yes, that's part of what DRN is for, but it serves no purpose to keep talking past each other here without anyone else's input, except to glaze over the eyes of the volunteers with TL;DR syndrome. - Jorgath (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Writ Keeper

Hey, guys, I'm (yet another) volunteer. With Ebe123's permission, I'll hijack it, if I may. So, let me give the briefest of summaries, just to check my understanding of the situation: at the start, everyone is happy with the wording of the lede, where it says that eternalism is sometimes equated with block time and/or block universe. Hypnosifl adds a reference with some commentary in it that basically contradicts the "sometimes" bit; while the actual text in the lede is still not in dispute, one of the footnotes says, in Misplaced Pages's voice, that the consensus of philosophers think of eternalism and the other two terms as synonymous. MachineElf objects to this on grounds of verifiability, as only one of the sources supports that it is a generally-held view, and adds quotes from the sources for context. Hypnosifl says that the quotes don't mean what you think they mean, and we're off to the races, with the dispute spilling out into the text of the lede itself and picking up other elements as well, like the whole relativity/Minkowski part. But the fundamental positions, as it were, seem to be that MachineElf says that "eternalism is sometimes considered the same as block universe" and Hypnosifl says that "eternalism is always considered the same as block universe".

So, if I got that right (and please tell me if I don't!), here's my suggestion, for which I'd be interested on hearing your feedback. First, I'd say we revert the wording of the lede itself back to what's used before this fracas started, so that we don't have to worry about the whole relativity/Minkowski diagram bit. That may be an issue that needs to be discussed, but it's a separate issue, so let's deal with the one at hand first. It also has the advantage (IMO) of getting rid of some of the qualifications and limited definitions and so on that got introduced over the debate, which look like they're more confusing than helpful to the casual reader. So, the question becomes this: Hypnosifl, are you solid enough in that position that you want to remove the word "sometimes" from the text of the lede itself? You didn't remove it from the lede when you first started, and that's what confused me at first. If you don't want to remove it, then the issue can probably be fixed just by removing the additional text in the footnote, so that it doesn't contradict the sentence it's supposed to support, and letting the refs stand on their own (probably in separate ref tags, but that's just stylistic). If you do want to remove the word from the lede, then we have a bit more to discuss. What do y'all think? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 00:05, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

For my part, I've no objections to any of that.—Machine Elf  07:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Hypnosifl adds a reference with some commentary in it that basically contradicts the "sometimes" bit; while the actual text in the lede is still not in dispute, one of the footnotes says, in Misplaced Pages's voice, that the consensus of philosophers think of eternalism and the other two terms as synonymous.

That's not my understanding of the dispute; at least, I don't recall to Machine Elf objecting to any one of the four sources I added in particular, and I also don't see that any of the sources provides stronger support for the notion that they are synonymous than the others (all four support this notion about equally, AFAIK, though none use the word synonymous--that's why, after Machine Elf complained about my "synonymous" edit, I changed it to "also known as", which is near-identical wording to two of the sources.) If you think one source supports my claim more strongly than the others, can you specify which of the four you're talking about? Here they are again:

'The third and more popular theory is that there are no significant ontological differences among present, past, and future because the differences are merely subjective. This view is called “the block universe theory” or “eternalism.”' (source)

'Block universe theory: Metaphysical theory that implies all of the past, present, and future is real. The name derives from the fact that a Minkowski diagram would represent events as points in a block if space and time were to be finite in all directions. Also called "eternalism."' (source)

'It is commonly held that relativity favors the "block universe" view (known also as "eternalism"), according to which all events enjoy the same ontological status regardless of their location' (source)

'It does not help, either, that there is a tendency to conflate eternalism — the four-dimensional "block universe" view — with causal determinism.' (source)

Incidentally, I since spotted another reference (written by a professional philosopher of science), which I'd like to add to the article once this dispute is resolved:

"Many philosophers have taken the view, known as 'the block universe theory' or 'eternalism', that there are no significant ontological differences among present, past, and future." (source)

So, the question becomes this: Hypnosifl, are you solid enough in that position that you want to remove the word "sometimes" from the text of the lede itself? You didn't remove it from the lede when you first started, and that's what confused me at first.

Yes, unless a source is found where a professional philosopher mentions some distinction in meaning between the terms. Not sure what you mean when you say I didn't remove it from the lede at first, my initial edit did remove it, (edit: sorry, now I see what you mean, I notice now that I added the claim that they are synonymous in the footnote while leaving the main text the same; but this would leave no confusion in the mind of readers who read the footnote, whereas if the main text read "sometimes" while the footnote just offered some sources without commenting on the issue of the equivalence of the terms, I think the issue would be a lot less clear to readers) then after Machine Elf objected to my calling the terms "synonymous" and reverted that, my next edit also removed "sometimes referred to" from the article, which I changed to Eternalism, defined as the view that there are no ontological differences between past, present and future, is also known as the "block universe" theory. Hypnosifl (talk) 12:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so now that we've focused the dispute, let's get into it. It seems to me that the sources do support Hypnosifl's position. I don't think we can really draw any conclusion from the Carroll source on way or another; the transitive connection between the terms are too loose. Moreover, while he does use the word "sometimes", he uses it in a way that doesn't need to imply a difference between the terms; if position A is sometimes called B, that doesn't have to mean that, the rest of the time, B refers to something else; it could just mean that B is rarely-used. The other sources that Hypnosifl lists seem to indicate that "block universe" and "eternalism" mean the same thing, in fairly uncontroversial terms. So, the question is now for MachineElf: what's making you support the word "sometimes" in the main text of the lede? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Could you expand on how it seems to you that the sources support Hypnosifl's position and what that is? Carroll is a clear counter example, the various meanings attached to "block universe" do not simplistically coincide with those of "eternalism":

• British Broadcasting Corporation (1970). The Listener. British Broadcasting Corporation. p. 141. ISSN 0024-4392. LCCN sn96046406. This idea is essentially that of the ' block universe ' — a term coined by William James according to which the world is like a film strip: the photographs are already there and are merely being exhibited to us.

• Jammer, M. (2006). Concepts of Simultaneity: From Antiquity to Einstein and Beyond. Concepts of Simultaneity. Johns Hopkins University Press. p. 78. ISBN 9780801884221. LCCN 2006048564. Berkeley "time" was nothing but "the succession of ideas in our minds," it follows that for God, in whose mind, as Berkeley expressively stated, there is no success, time as defined by Berkeley does not exist. Moreover, because past, present, and future are "actually present," in God's mind, He sees them as what human beings would call "simultaneously." That kind of simultaneity exists when we look at the representation of the past, present, and future in a diagram of what is now called the "block universe," a term that was coined in 1890 by William James...

• Whitrow, G.J. (1980). The Natural Philosophy of Time. Oxford Science Publications. Clarendon Press. p. 274. ISBN 9780198582120. LCCN lc79041145. Weyl's view, like Einstein's, was essentially that of the 'block universe', to use the term coined by William James to denote the hypothesis that the world is like a film strip: the photographs are already there and are merely being exhibited to us.

• Borchert, D.M. (2006). Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Masaryk - Nussbaum. Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Masaryk-Nussbaum. Macmillan Reference USA. p. 326. ISBN 9780028657868. LCCN 2005018573. It has been characteristic of monism, from the earliest times, to insist on the unity of things in time (their freedom from change) or in space (their indivisibilty) or in quality (their undifferentiatedness). Such a view of the world is already found in a developed form in the pre-Socratic philosopher Parmenides and was nicknamed the "block universe" (by Thomas Davidson, a friend of William James)...

• Huneker, J. (1913). The Pathos of Distance: A Book of a Thousand and One Moments. C.Scribner's sons. p. 363. LCCN 13010641. "The pluralistic world," continues James, "is thus more like a federal republic than like an empire or a kingdom." Monism, on the other hand, believes in the block universe, in a timeless, changeless condition; "all things interpenetrate and telescope together in the great total conflux." ... Francis Herbert Bradley of Oxford, with his Appearance and Reality, is the man upon whom James trains his heaviest artillery.

• Schlosshauer, M. (2011). Elegance and Enigma: The Quantum Interviews. The Frontiers Collection. Springer. p. 125. ISBN 9783642208799. I would rathr say that quantum mechanics on a QBist reading appears to imply an irreducible pluralism to nature. Nature is composed of entities, each with a fire of its own--something not fueled or determined by any of nature's other parts. The philosopher William James coined the terms "multiverse" and "pluriverse" to capture this idea and put it into contrast with the idea of a single, monistic block universe. Unfortunately, the Everettians have co-opted "multiverse"...

• Layzer, D. (1991). Cosmogenesis: The Growth of Order in the Universe. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 309. ISBN 9780195069082. LCCN lc88012530. The phrase "block universe" was used by William James, A Pluralistic Universe (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1977), p. 140. James refers to "the block- universe eternal and without a history."

• Kern, S. (2003). The Culture of Time and Space, 1880-1918: With a New Preface. Harvard University Press. p. 204. ISBN 9780674021693. LCCN 2003056635. In the 1880s, when Bergson and James began to argue that mental life was a flux with no sharp conceptual or operational boundaries, one of their targets was this kind of ossified faculty psychology. Another was Francis Herbert Bradley's monism. James spearheaded the attack on Bradley's dismissal of time and change as mere appearances and on the "block universe" of his rigid systematic philosophy. For James only the diversity and movement of experience was real.

• Jammer, M. (2011). Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology. Princeton University Press. pp. 160–161. ISBN 9780691102979. LCCN 99024124. Indeed, the relativity of temporal order has been invoked to resolve certain theological problems as shown below. Another aspect of time, which has been used for the same purpose, is its relativistic conception as a coordinate in Minkowski's four-dimensional space-time, at least when the latter has been interpreted--as, for example, by Hermann Weyl--as a "block universe." As Weyl phrased it, "the objective world simply is, it does not happen..." In other words, the relations "earlier," "simultaneous with," and "later" are merely geometrical relations in the static four-dimensional space-time, and the terms "past," "present," and "future" have no objective reality. Whether the idea of a "block universe" is a logical consequence of the theory of relativity, or even only compatible with it, is not our present concern. It should be clear, however, that such a conception of the universe would seriously conflict with the Judeo-Christian religious tradition, which assigns to time a very active role in history.

• Nahin, P.J. (2011). Time Travel: A Writer's Guide to the Real Science of Plausible Time Travel. Time Travel. Johns Hopkins University Press. p. 89. ISBN 9781421400822. LCCN 2010938406. The origin of the specific term block universe is generally cited to be the Oxford philosopher Francis Herbert Bradley (1846-1924), who in his 1883 book Principles of Logic wrote: "We seem to think that we site in a boat, and carried down the stream of time, and that on the bank there is a row of houses with numbers on the doors. And we get out of the boat, and knock at the door of number 19, and, re-entering the boat, then suddenly find ourselves opposite 20, and, having done the same, we go on to 21. And, all this while, the firm fixed row of the past and future stretches in a block behind us, and before us." The house numbers would seem to be Bradley's way of referring to the centuries. Notice that this statement was written twelve years before The Time Machine, and it preceded Minkowski by a quarter-century.

• Jammer, M. (2011). Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology. Princeton University Press. p. 181. ISBN 9780691102979. LCCN 99024124. In short, the relativity of simultaneity has been applied to save libertarianism as a fundamental tenet of traditional religion and morality. In a much discussed article from 1966, Cornelis Willem Rietdijk claimed that, contrariwise, the relativity of simultaneity implies strict determinism and therefore necessitarianism, the denial of free will. Strictly speaking, this claim is much older, for it is part of the interpretation of space-time as a "block universe;" a term that was used as early as 1883 by the dialectical metaphysician Francis Herbert Bradley to denote the detemporalization of physical reality. Not only Herman Weyl, whose characterization of the "block universe" was cited earlier, but also our other philosophers and scientists, including Ernst Cassirer and, most eloquently, James Hopwood Jeans, expresses the idea that the theory of relativity implies strict determinism, the concept of the world as a "block universe," and the denial of free will, because clearly the Parmenidean doctrine that there is no "becoming" but only "being" requires that free will is at best an illusion.

• McHenry, L.B. (1992). Whitehead and Bradley: A Comparative Analysis. Suny Series in Systematic Philosophy. State University of New York Press. p. 2. ISBN 9780791409169. LCCN lc91012725. Although is greatly indebted to Bradley's concept of 'feeling' as an "implicit repudiation of the doctrine of 'vacuous actuality'" his disagreements focus primarily on various problems of accepting the Absolute as the final transcendent Reality. He frequently referred to this position as the "block universe" devoid of process. This what he means he says that: "if this cosmology be deemed successful, it becomes natural at this point to ask whether the type of thought involved be not a transformation of some main doctrines of Absolute Idealism onto a realistic basis."

• Nahin, P.J. (2011). Time Travel: A Writer's Guide to the Real Science of Plausible Time Travel. Time Travel. Johns Hopkins University Press. p. 92. ISBN 9781421400822. LCCN 2010938406. Hermann Weyl (1885-1955), a German mathematical physicist who in his last years was a colleague of Einstein and Godel at the Insitute for Advanced Study in Princeton, expressed this view (in his 1949 book Philosophy of Mathematics and Natural Science) in words that have since become famous:

The objective world simply is, it does not happen. Only to the gaze of my consciousness, crawling upward along the life line of my body , does a section of the world come to life as a fleeting image in space which continuously changes in time ."

Now, after reading that, recall time traveler's speech to his friends:

There is no difference between Time and any of the three dimensions of Space except that our consciousness moves along it...here is a portrait of a man at eight years old, another at fifteen, another at seventeen, another at twenty-three, and so on. All these are evidently sections, as it were. Three-Dimensional representations of his Four-Dimensional being, which is a fixed and unalterable thing ."

This was written, remember, in 1895, thirteen years before Minkowski and his world-lines, and of course decades before Weyl's famous quote.

The block universe concept appeared very early in pulp science fiction. {{cite book}}: line feed character in |quote= at position 296 (help)

—Machine Elf  16:57, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I did ask you almost from the start if you could provide any sources other than Carroll for the claim that "block universe" sometimes has a different meaning than "eternalism", but you always refused my request; a lot of time might have been saved if you had done this earlier. I think some of these sources are not clearly using "block universe" to mean anything other than "all times are equally real", but are simply using analogies to make the idea more concrete; for example, "the world is like a film strip: the photographs are already there and are merely being exhibited to us" and Bradley's metaphor of our moving on a boat past houses representing different times, with "the firm fixed row of the past and future stretches in a block behind us, and before us" (i.e. all the members of the row are equally real and fixed). And Jammer's quote about relativity being "interpreted" to imply a "block universe" does not clearly indicate that he thinks the concept of "block universe" itself involves relativistic ideas like a four-dimensional spacetime manifold. William James is a good candidate for a philosopher using "block universe" differently, though--he was criticizing a type of monism in which every particular part of reality is completely determined by its relationships with other parts of reality, which goes beyond the eternalist claim that future events "exist" (to qualify as an eternalist, one does not necessarily have to believe that future facts are completely determined by other events in their past or by metaphysical necessities). It's not clear whether James was saying that this type of monism implies a "block universe" in the more limited sense of future events already being "out there", or whether he was using "block universe" to refer to this sense in which future events are determined. Do you know of any contemporary philosophers who use "block universe" in a way that suggest they mean some type of determinism as well as the idea of past and future events being just as real as present ones? If not, we might consider something like "also known as the block time view by modern philosophers", but with a footnote that historically some philosophers like James used the term differently (and I'll try to find a source that states more clearly if James meant "block universe" to imply determinism). Hypnosifl (talk) 17:46, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, no time would have been saved... WP:OR there's nothing wrong with the current text: "sometimes called". See WP:LEDE.—Machine Elf  18:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Nothing about my original edit constituted "original research", since the sources I gave did support the claim that eternalism is "also known" as the block universe view. If someone provides reliable sources for a claim, it's not their responsibility to make sure that the claim is universally agreed upon by all professionals in the field; other editors can provide sources that show that other professionals disagree, as I asked you to do all along. Your new research above did provide a strong indication that some sources do define "block universe" differently, and although I wasn't convinced they were definitive, when I did a little more looking for quotes by/about philosophers who disputed the monists like James and Whitehead I did find a source (see below) that very clearly uses "block universe" in a way that includes determinism. If you had done similar research earlier in our debate, I imagine the same thing would have happened, so quite a lot of time and energy would have been saved. Hypnosifl (talk) 18:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't refer to your original edit.—Machine Elf  18:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, I thought when you you put WP:OR next to "there's nothing wrong with the current text", you meant that my proposed modifications to the current text (i.e., "also known as") were original research. If that's not it, what does the accusation of WP:OR refer to? Hypnosifl (talk) 18:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

“‘Non-presentism’ is an umbrella term that covers several different, more specific versions of the view. One version of Non-presentism is Eternalism, which says that objects from both the past and the future exist just as much as present objects. According to Eternalism, non-present objects like Socrates and future Martian outposts exist right now, even though they are not currently present. We may not be able to see them at the moment, on this view, and they may not be in the same space-time vicinity that we find ourselves in right now, but they should nevertheless be on the list of all existing things.” http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/ see also http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-bebecome/

—Machine Elf  18:18, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

What's the relevance of this one? It doesn't use the term "block universe", and its definition of "eternalism" is the same as the one in my edits of the lede. Hypnosifl (talk) 18:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

It differs from the definition you give #above. Let's give Writ Keeper a chance to focus the discussion.—Machine Elf  18:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

My definition directly above for block universe/eternalism was "all times are equally real", that seems to me to be no different from "objects from both the past and the future exist just as much as present objects". But you're right that this is a bit of a sidetrack; perhaps you could comment on my latest proposed edit at the bottom of the page, or we can wait for Writ Keeper to comment. Hypnosifl (talk) 18:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

You said: “to qualify as an eternalist, one does not necessarily have to believe that future facts are completely determined by other events in their past or by metaphysical necessities”—Machine Elf  19:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in that quote says or implies that "future facts are completely determined by other events in their past or by metaphysical necessities", it just says that they already exist, so it doesn't contradict what I said. As an analogy, if you find a long sequence of numbers on a scroll of paper, naturally you believe that later numbers in the sequence already exist when you look at earlier ones, but the fact that they exist doesn't mean that the numbers were generated by a rule that meant later numbers were determined by earlier ones (so that if you knew the rule, you could predict later numbers before actually unrolling the scroll and looking at them, just by seeing earlier parts of the sequence). The sequence could be completely random, for example. Eternalism is usually understood to be compatible with the idea that there is a similar randomness to events in history, so eternalism shouldn't be conflated with determinism--that's what one of the quotes I provided at the beginning was saying, 'It does not help, either, that there is a tendency to conflate eternalism — the four-dimensional "block universe" view — with causal determinism.' (source) Hypnosifl (talk) 19:30, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Incidentally, I am not sure that William James ever used the specific phrase "block universe"--the closest quote I can find is one from "The Dilemma of Determinism" where he wrote "What does determinism profess? It professes that those parts of the universe already laid down absolutely appoint and decree what the other parts shall be. The future has no ambiguous possibilities hidden in its womb... the whole is in each and every part, and welds it with the rest into an absolute unity, an iron block, in which there can be no equivocation or shadow of turning." However, it does seem that modern philosophers discussing the late 19th-/early 20th-century conflict between a school of monistic philosophers who saw everything as determined by its relation to the whole, like Bradley, and those who disagreed with them, like James and Dewey and Whitehead and Russell, do use "block universe" in a way that includes the concept of determinism, as on p. 180 of Alfred North Whitehead: Essays on His Philosophy, where George Louis Kline writes of "the Block universe view described thus by Russell: 'There are such invariable relations between different events at the same or different times that, given the state of the whole universe throughout any finite time, however short, every previous and subsequent event can theoretically be determined as a function of the given events during that time.'" So Kline at least is using "block universe" to mean something more than the view that all times are equally real. The fact remains that many philosophers define "block universe" to mean nothing more than this, so I would propose something like "also called the 'block universe' view by many philosophers , although some define 'block universe' to include additional concepts like the future being determined by the past ". Would that be acceptable? Hypnosifl (talk) 18:09, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the fact that one of your sources directly quoted James using "block-universe", in A Pluralistic Universe. Later in the lecture there is another quote where he seems to be including in the term some sort of monistic idea of the universe being a "rationalistic" whole where none of the parts make sense except in relation to the whole: "Here, then, you have the plain alternative, and the full mystery of the difference between pluralism and monism, as clearly as I can set it forth on this occasion. It packs up into a nutshell:—Is the manyness in oneness that indubitably characterizes the world we inhabit, a property only of the absolute whole of things, so that you must postulate that one-enormous-whole indivisibly as the prius of there being any many at all—in other words, start with the rationalistic block-universe, entire, unmitigated, and complete?" Hypnosifl (talk) 19:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:LEDE.—Machine Elf  18:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The sentence I proposed is still rather brief, and I think clear definition of terms is important in philosophy. But an alternate suggestion I'd be happy with would be to keep the "sometimes called" in the lede, then add a footnote which says something like "many philosophers use "eternalism" and "block universe" interchangeably", followed by the references I provided, "though others use 'block universe' to denote additional concepts such as determinism", followed by the Kline references and any others (edit: including the James reference, see above) that unambiguously show the author defining "block universe" to mean something more than just the view that all times are equally real. Hypnosifl (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Eternalism: Proposed resolution

I've read through the above discussion. It is clear that Eternalism and Block Universe/Time are very closely related concepts. As with many philosophical concepts, their definitions are a bit vague, and perhaps vary from author to author. Some authors define them as identical, some define them in peculiar ways. But all interpretations are very, very similar. My suggestion is this:

• The article will explain to the reader that there are a variety of definitions/interpretations of the terms Eternalism, Block Universe, and Block Time.
• The article will identify (in the lead) some of the common themes in the definitions/interpretations
• The article will focus on enumerating the significant persons that defined/interpreted these terms; the article will identify the sources and give the dates of the definitions/interpretations
• The article will not assert, in the encylopedia's voice that all three terms are positively identical; However, the article will state that some (but not all) authorities consider Eternalism to be the same as Block Universe/Time

In other words: in topics like this, it is best to just present the various viewpoints of the sources, in a very factual, objective way; and let the readers draw their own conclusions. Does that sound like a good idea? --Noleander (talk) 00:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

By way of example, there are many WP articles that objectively present multiple definitions/interpretations. For example, the Socialism article's lead states "There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them. They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets versus planning, how management is to be organised within economic enterprises, and the role of the state in constructing socialism." And Facism's article includes "Historians, political scientists and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism. Each form of fascism is distinct, leaving many definitions too wide or narrow. Since the 1990s, scholars including Stanley Payne, Roger Eatwell, Roger Griffin and Robert O. Paxton have been gathering a rough consensus on the ideology's core tenets." Other articles that have a similar approach are Atheism and Anthropic principle. That is the sort of flavor I am suggesting for Eternalism. --Noleander (talk) 01:05, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, 100%—Machine Elf  04:22, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know that there are multiple definitions of "eternalism" among modern philosophers; at least, no one has pointed to any sources that give different definitions. As for "block universe", what do you think of my proposal above, namely: 'an alternate suggestion I'd be happy with would be to keep the "sometimes called" in the lede, then add a footnote which says something like "many philosophers use "eternalism" and "block universe" interchangeably", followed by the references I provided, "though others use 'block universe' to denote additional concepts such as determinism", followed by the Kline references and any others (edit: including the James reference, see above) that unambiguously show the author defining "block universe" to mean something more than just the view that all times are equally real.' Hypnosifl (talk) 12:27, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, your thought of keeping "sometimes called" in the lede (with a footnote) is good. But I'm trying to look at the bigger picture: Rather than focus on one word in the lede ("sometimes" vs "always") I'm suggesting that throughout the entire article the tone should be "There are a variety of interpretations of these three terms; person A in 1925 said ...; person B in 1948 said ...; person D asserts that E and BU are the same; ... ". Just present the different viewpoints of the sources and avoid synthesizing in the encyclopedia's voice. --Noleander (talk) 15:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you (or other commenters) think my proposed footnote is itself OK? As for the rest of the article, since the main focus is eternalism as a philosophy of time, and I don't think anyone has suggested that the term "eternalism" means anything other than "all times are equally real", I don't think it's needed to go into a lot of detail about other uses of "block universe" outside of sections on the history of these ideas (since these sections naturally tend to include ideas that are related to but not quite identical to the modern notion of eternalism). As far as I can tell, the only clear examples of "block universe" being used to mean something different are either by historical proponents and opponents of the type monism put forth by the British idealists in the late 19th and early 20th century (and maybe some other non-British Absolute idealists around the same time, like Josiah Royce), or by modern philosophers discussing this historical debate. If there are examples of "block universe" being used in other contexts, such that the editors can reach a consensus that the person using it is clearly using it to mean something different than "all times are equally real", those uses could be discussed too. So far I'm not convinced that any of the sources brought up to date show that "block universe" is sometimes meant to include concepts specifically from the theory of relativity, even if relativity is often interpreted to imply the view that all times are equally real, so the footnote I proposed only specifically mentions other uses related to Absolute idealism, but it leaves open the possibility that there could be "other" uses of block universe as well, so it doesn't take a definite stance on the relativity issue. Hypnosifl (talk) 16:40, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the footnote is fine. We may have a solution here: (1) use the word "sometimes" in the lead; (2) include the footnote; and (3) the article must focus on simply re-stating what the reliable sources say about the topic (if there are multiple or contradictory definitions, so be it). Is that acceptable to everyone? --Noleander (talk) 20:18, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this solution sounds good to me. Hopefully it's also OK to tweak the second part of the footnote a little to make it a little more precise; I was thinking that it could be "though others use 'block universe' to denote additional concepts; for example, in discussions of British Idealism, 'block universe' sometimes denotes the idea that the state of every part of reality was completely determined by its relation to other parts, or to the indivisible whole." (I'm trying to come up with a summary that will encompass both the Kline quote and the James quote, since the James quote doesn't mention 'determinism', but does say 'Is the manyness in oneness that indubitably characterizes the world we inhabit, a property only of the absolute whole of things, so that you must postulate that one-enormous-whole indivisibly as the prius of there being any many at all—in other words, start with the rationalistic block-universe, entire, unmitigated, and complete?') Hypnosifl (talk) 12:27, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with the multi-part footnote:

(2a) WP:OR Find at least one source that says "many philosophers use 'eternalism' and 'block universe' interchangeably" and say it in the body like normal. Do not insert OR in a footnote that says a half dozen "also called" equals "many philosophers...interchangeably". Most do not use them interchangeably. Most use one or the other, in a qualified sense.

• Kline, G.L. (1989). Alfred North Whitehead: Essays on His Philosophy. University Press of America. p. 180. ISBN 9780819172839. LCCN 89033904. he Block Universe view described thus by Russell: There are such invariable relations between different events at the same or different times that, given the state of the whole universe throughout any finite time, however short, every previous and subsequent event can theoretically be determined as a function of the given events during that time.

(2b) WP:V I don't know what you mean by "the James reference" but Kline p.180 does not support "though others use 'block universe' to denote additional concepts such as determinism" (emphasis added). Block universes are prima facie deterministic unless they're "growing block universes" or whatever. Russell's "Block Universe" is just a version of Laplace's demon: the only similarity is determinism. Russell actually calls it the law of universal causation:

• Russell, B. (1914). Our Knowledge of the External World. Open Court. p. 221.—Machine Elf  15:10, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

(2a) I would say that five professional philosophers defining them in an interchangeable way ("also called", "This view is called 'the block universe theory' or 'eternalism'", etc.), several in reference works that are intended as broad views of the field rather than just their own personal views, is sufficient for "many". Are you disagreeing about the number being sufficient (if so, what number would you suggest is sufficient), or disagreeing that the sources I mention actually do define them interchangeably (Writ Keeper seemed to think they did, but if you dispute this we could try to get others' opinions), or both? I could also find many more references showing philosophers who treat the definition of "block universe" as "all times are equally real" (if you put "block universe" in quotes and do a search on google books, it seems to me that every book by a philosopher that I saw on the first few pages of this search was using the term this way), even if they don't mention the term "eternalism" (but I think you'd agree that 'eternalism' is generally defined in this way). And the only modern source you've shown that clearly assumes a different definition is one discussing the historical conflict between the British Idealists and others like Whitehead--if "most" define block universe to mean something different than eternalism, then it shouldn't be hard to find other sources that clearly give definitions which differ from "all times equally real" outside of ones discussing this particular historical debate.

(2b) "The James reference" refers to the same source by William James that you found above, which I was quoting from in my previous comment. In the "Comments by Writ Keeper" section, in my comment beginning "Sorry, I missed the fact...", I pointed to the quote from this source where James seems to most clearly define "block universe" to mean something more than just "all times equally real": '"Here, then, you have the plain alternative, and the full mystery of the difference between pluralism and monism, as clearly as I can set it forth on this occasion. It packs up into a nutshell:—Is the manyness in oneness that indubitably characterizes the world we inhabit, a property only of the absolute whole of things, so that you must postulate that one-enormous-whole indivisibly as the prius of there being any many at all—in other words, start with the rationalistic block-universe, entire, unmitigated, and complete?"' But James does not use the word "determinism" in this quote, hence my proposed modification of the second part of the footnote. The only place James mentions "determinism" in this lecture is alongside "block universe", but it is also alongside various other problems he has with monism such as "reality lapsing into appearance", so it's not clear whether determinism and the block-universe are meant to be two distinct items on the list or whether the block-universe is meant to be a synonym for "universal determinism": '"the only way to escape from the paradoxes and perplexities that a consistently thought-out monistic universe suffers from as from a species of auto-intoxication—the mystery of the ‘fall’ namely, of reality lapsing into appearance, truth into error, perfection into imperfection; of evil, in short; the mystery of universal determinism, of the block-universe eternal and without a history, etc."' Hypnosifl (talk) 16:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with: "five professional philosophers defining them in an interchangeable way", "also called", "or" or "known as"; but step away from the "etc."

How many do I think?

"interchangeably" means synonymous... It appears on this page eight times: =1= =2= =3= =4= =5= =6= =7= =8= and none of them are anywhere near Writ Keeper. You did manage to persuade him/her that they're synonymous, but I was under the impression you're willing to agree that's too simplistic?

"Broad views", Dowden... e.g. p.116 "meaning is up for grabs in the struggle to resolve the conflicts among metaphysical assumptions, intuitions, meanings, and scientific knowledge. A delicate balancing act..." He isn't using them "interchangeably": he is shifting back and forth from "eternalism" to "block universe theory" conversationally, as the dialogue flows from argument to argument... Naomi is certainly an eternalist, which is to say a block universe theory proponent... just bear in mind that he uses the former in the context of time travel, special relativity, relativity of simultaneity, and the ontology itself; while he uses the latter in the context of Minkowski diagrams, reality of past and future, fixed determinism (if not "causal" determinism), endure-perdure, temporal stages and the 2-D/3-D/4-D geometric utility of the "metaphor" (p.104) itself. I'd recommend Dowden p.103–116 as a reader-friendly overview, (search inside).

The prolix speculation goes off the rails after the questions, somewhere around sourcing for "block universe" as "all times are equally real" TL;DR. All this is about the word "sometimes"... and there is a two-to-one consensus among editors of the article to keep it. I decline entertaining the notion of a sprawling subtext in the footnotes in lieu of simply suggesting a different word. Please note that the entire lede does not need to be rewritten in order to modify that.—Machine Elf  01:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

You did manage to persuade him/her that they're synonymous, but I was under the impression you're willing to agree that's too simplistic?

I'm willing to agree not all philosophers define them to be synonymous, but I think the specific ones I quoted do understand them to be synonymous, and I think Writ Keeper agreed that this was the natural way to parse the references I gave. I think it's over-literal to demand that the words in the wiki article precisely match the words in the reference, so that if a reference says something like 'this view is called “the block universe theory” or “eternalism”', we aren't allowed to parse this and summarize with something like "considers them interchangeable" or "considers them to be different terms for the same view".

Likewise, by putting a "citation needed" after "many", are you suggesting that I need to find a source that literally says that "many" philosophers use the terms in such-and-such a way in order to include that word in the wiki summary? If so I also don't agree with this degree of literalness. And it's unclear what a single source saying "many" would prove to you anyway--unless the author has actually done a detailed poll of others in the field, the use of a word like "many", "most", "commonly" etc. would only indicate that this was the author's impression about how the terms were commonly used from the author's own reading of the literature. Some judgment by wiki editors is required for deciding what are "common" uses of the terms, how "many" define them, etc.; if a large number of reliable sources from professionals in the field are found using the word a certain way, editors can judge that words like "common" and "many" are reasonable. if you google the words "many" and "argue" (or "many" and "scientists", "many" and "philosophers", etc.) along with the restriction "site:en.wikipedia.org", I think very few wiki articles which say that "many" argue such-and-such a position actually offer a cite to a source that literally uses the word "many", usually it's just a question of the editors finding this summary reasonable because the argument is considered a mainstream one that a large number of reliable sources make.

Another proposal for the wording choice here would be for the main article to say Eternalism, commonly defined as the view that there are no ontological differences between past, present and future, followed by a footnote showing that "eternalism" is in fact defined this way by many philosophers, is sometimes called the "block universe" theory, followed by a footnote whose first part says The "block universe" theory is also defined by many philosophers as the view that all times have the same ontological status, followed by the references I gave and then a whole lot more references which define "block universe" this way but don't necessarily mention the term "eternalism".

Also, you didn't clarify if you still object to my proposal for the second part of the footnote (though others use 'block universe' to denote additional concepts; for example, in discussions of British Idealism, 'block universe' sometimes denotes the idea that the state of every part of reality was completely determined by its relation to other parts, or to the indivisible whole) now that I showed you which James source I was referring to, and pointed out that he didn't clearly indicate whether "determinism" was meant to by synonymous with "block universe or just another related issue he had with the monistic view.

The Dowden dialogue you mention between "Naomi" and "John" does not indicate any difference in the basic definitions of "block universe" and "eternalism" (precise definitions aren't even offered in the dialogue). You may be correct that each is more likely to be used in certain contexts, but a difference in the mental associations two terms bring to mind, the mental imagery they tend to call forth and such, does not indicate a difference in their technical definitions for philosophers. Hypnosifl (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:TENDENTIOUS waste of time, case closed.—Machine Elf  22:54, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the situation has been resolved; I still want to add a footnote along the lines of my various proposals, and you would presumably revert any of my suggestions. Could we get some input from others on the following questions?

(1) Does a phrase like "many philosophers" require a cite to a source that actually uses the word "many" or a synonym, or is it sufficient to find a decent number of cites to philosophers offering a particular definition, especially ones from reference works from mainstream publishers that are meant to serve as general guides to the subject? My impression from many other wikipedia articles was that a loose phrase like this was OK as long as there were at least some mainstream sources to support it, and presumably a consensus among editors that this was a reasonably common view in the field.

(2) Beyond the "many" issue, are there any other objections to following proposal for an edit: have the main article say Eternalism, commonly defined as the view that there are no ontological differences between past, present and future, followed by a footnote showing that "eternalism" is in fact defined this way by many philosophers, is sometimes called the "block universe" theory, followed by a footnote whose first part says The "block universe" theory is also defined by many philosophers as the view that all times have the same ontological status, followed by the references I gave and then a whole lot more references which define "block universe" this way but don't necessarily mention the term "eternalism".

Then, the second part of the footnote could say though others use 'block universe' to denote additional concepts; for example, in discussions of British Idealism, 'block universe' sometimes denotes the idea that the state of every part of reality was completely determined by its relation to other parts, or to the indivisible whole. (I'm trying to come up with a summary that will encompass both the Kline quote and the James quote, since the James quote doesn't mention 'determinism', but does say 'Is the manyness in oneness that indubitably characterizes the world we inhabit, a property only of the absolute whole of things, so that you must postulate that one-enormous-whole indivisibly as the prius of there being any many at all—in other words, start with the rationalistic block-universe, entire, unmitigated, and complete?') Hypnosifl (talk) 12:43, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello all, I am yet another volunteer here at the dispute resolution noticeboard. It looks like Noleander's proposed resolution is a good one, and I see Hypnosifl is in favour. Machine Elf, does this general solution sound acceptable for you? If you find the general solution here acceptable, then I think the best thing to do here would be to go back to the article talk page and work out the specifics of the solution between you. If you have more problems after trying to work through things on the talk page, I recommend requesting formal mediation. What would you both say to this? Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius 11:16, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

No, it does not sound good to me for the reasons I've stated.—Machine Elf  15:15, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Please close this. It's not clear how to do that.—Machine Elf  15:28, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you're referring to when you say "it's not clear how to do that". Could you clarify for me? Thanks — Mr. Stradivarius 17:37, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Religion in Turkey (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Special:Prefixindex/Religion in

Users involved

• making the "religiosity", "irreligion", statistics, names, and bar chart changes:
  • 178.223.212.72 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.119.212 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 217.65.192.104 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 109.93.148.134 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 109.93.89.159 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.198.96 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 93.86.142.33 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 91.150.100.10 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 109.93.150.150 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.199.235 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 91.150.100.10 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.123.111 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 77.46.182.116 (talk · contribs), a.k.a. 93.87.210.14 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.204.153 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.215.93 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.223.170 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 178.223.114.175 (talk · contribs) a.k.a. 77.46.175.85 (talk · contribs)

• reverting, others, etc:
  • Saguamundi (talk · contribs) (Religion in Turkey)
  • Poeticbent (talk · contribs) (Religion in Poland)
  • Erp (talk · contribs) (Religion in Norway)
  • Tahc (talk · contribs) (Religion in Norway)
  • Sabrebd (talk · contribs) (Religion in Scotland)

Dispute overview

Well, for starters, the article presents the KONDA reasearch which states 2.3% agnostics and 0.9% atheists. In the nature of other Religion in Europe articles (all articles use irreligion; not that I'm the fan of the WP:OSE), I asked that those be incorporated into the 3.2% irreligious. However, not only that my proposal was left undiscussed on the talk page, but Saguamundi also requested the article's protection. So, not that it's only content dispute, it's also user conduct dispute (for not discussing and practically using WP:OWN). Please, help us resolve these disputes.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Edit warring (wasn't the best idea), temporally full protection (didn't help), discussion on talk page (Saguamundi didn't want to discuss - at all), help desk...

How do you think we can help?

Firstly, you could 'convince' Saguamundi to act properly and be a good Wikipedian discussing rather than edit warring (plus WP:OWN). Secondly, you could help me/us determine whether atheism and agnosticism should be unified as irreligion or not. Thirdly, you could find the third, compromising (and maybe creative) idea, so that everyone would be happy and satisfied.

Opening comments by Saguamundi

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Poeticbent

First of all, I'm NOT an "involved user". So, why am I being dragged into this? All I did was to revert once a suspicious chart with no external source and numbers that did not correspond to what the article said. I requested the citation. The uploader corrected his mistake and appologized in his edit summary; I let go of it, end of story. However, KONDA Research is a private company from Turkey (not from Poland) involved only in polling and data collection. It is one of over a dozen such companies in Turkey earning a living by research in Social Sciences and Humanities. I wonder why the charts are posted everywhere around (from Albania to Norway), even if the actual data isn't new or differs from the equally reliable local sources? Is there a possible COI behind this unusual push for mass inclussion of KONDA results in Misplaced Pages? And why is a dynamic IP doing the posting instead of a registered user? There must be a better way of doing this, without giving grief. Poeticbent talk 15:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Erp

I've also had not been involved in the Religion in Turkey article; however, I have been involved in the Religion in Norway article and was considering bringing up the problem there though I was awaiting a discussion in Talk:Religion in Norway. Namely the renaming and shoehorning of cited statistics into a bar graph which I think misleads people. The same seems to be happening in the Turkey article (with the addition that the stats however munged apparently don't seem to come from the given reference). As an aside I find irreligion as a term inappropriate and vague for what is included under it; it is too strong a word to apply to the merely non-religious. It is not used very much as far as I can see in modern scholarly research and most of those uses are for specific historical periods when the term was in use. The Library of Congress has a sum total of at most 67 works classified as being about 'irreligion' (the search would also find use in notes or title) which means their definition of it must be quite narrow and far narrower than its current use in Misplaced Pages. --Erp (talk) 04:34, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Tahc

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Sabrebd

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Religion in Turkey discussion

Discussion

I will wait for the other party to comment. Page protection is never the solution to a dispute, and atheism is different than irreligion. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 00:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi! I'm a DRN volunteer and am awaiting an opening statement by Saguamundi. Electric Catfish 21:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

As long as there is already some chat here, I would like to interject. Agnosticism and irreligion are unrelated (see Agnostic theism). Thus uniting agnostics and atheists you get a set of people who are not necessarily irreligious; renaming atheists to irreligious you get a set of people, which is smaller then amount of irreligious. Statistics is all about it: the way the question is posed severely limits ability of data manipulation. That is why the community-wide RfCs are normally prepared for quite a lot of time. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 02:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

That isn't what the irreligion says. It clearly includes 'all the possibilities' (of course not agnostic theism; it's theism, so belief is present; agnostics we talk about here are agnostic atheists). You got me confused with the part of the way question is posed? This all seems lake a misunderstanding to me. Could someone write what irreligion is and what it isn't? Is article lying? Regarding the informations it contains, irreligious are - atheists, secular humanists (mostly atheists), antitheists (atheists again), anticlericalists (wide group; from atheists to SBNR), antireligionists (wide group again), apatheists, ignostics, nontheists (wide group; discluding nontheistic religions), religious skeptics, etc... However, those actually sum up almost only to atheists and (agnostic) atheists. So, is it OK to count atheists and agnostics as irreligious or not (my guess is yes)? 93.87.210.14 (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe that irreligion is lying, as it uses word "agnostic" in sense of "agnostic atheist". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

What to do in that case? Nominate irreligion for speedy (kidding of course)? However, these issues must be checked, since there are some conflicting definitions (as I 'got a hold of them') that need to be adressed, so they don't cause confusion. Either way, the 'opening' comment is still pretty much needed. 93.87.210.14 (talk) 10:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I partly agree with Poeticbent. The volounteer added all of you (who clearly have nothing to do with Religion in Turkey dispute; I actually already explained that). As for 'KONDA agenda', it could be prestent (but only in Religion in Turkey), since (read Religion in Turkey's talk and hisory pages) Saguamundi was one instisting (for several years) "stick to KONDA", "we better stick to KONDA", etc. I posted a question on help desk regarding major Misplaced Pages justice I experienced in these few days . So, KONDA's present only in Religion in Turkey, so no 'KONDA agenda' is present. 93.86.129.66 (talk) 18:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

You know, filing requests on the same topic in different places is discouraged on Misplaced Pages. Such practice is usually referred to as "forum shopping". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

That was mainly regarding the other user conduct dispute (no relations with this one). 178.223.204.153 (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

How exactly would you derive the amount of "irreligious" in the "Religion in Turkey"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Big sorries for not being able to comment earlier. As for irreligious in Turkey, according to the updated terminology used by KONDA (thank you for doing that, since I wasn't able to access the archive), it would be only 0.9%. I'm confused about those 2.3%. They don't seem to be the agnostic atheist. Are they just people not going to church/mosque, Muslims not doing obligatory prayer? Or maybe some of these: agnostic theists, believers without religion (Ietsers and SBNR)? Any further specification (non-believer is imprecise, and is Arabic term (Kafir) used to denote all non-Muslims)? Either way(s), all those don't belong to Irreligion, but to respective religions (agnostic theists, Ietsers and SBNR usually identify with one of the religions (see respective articles)). A for bar box, new one would contain: 98.4% Islam (what's left after everything else is counted in), 0.9% Irreligion/Atheism (KONDA) and 0.7% Others (referenced and present in the beginning of the article). In that case, Atheism could be a better choice (same as with Serbia, Romania, Luxembourg, Russia, Belarus etc.). However, Irreligion is still the best choice for Germany, France, Sweden, Norway (unless the article renaming), the Netherlands, Latvia, etc, etc... So, since it's the most appropriate term for the most Religion in Europe articles, I though that it would be good to use Irreligion for all, so that there is consistency present. Also, readers would be able to compare the information more easily, since the same terms would be used. Thoughts? 178.223.215.93 (talk) 11:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

See, this particular classification is very uncommon and difficult to match against common variants. So even if the policy would allow to state own analysis of sources (WP:OR forbids this), any particular option would constitute improper synthesis, as all of the groups the source uses includes irreligious (eg. anticlericals are "non-believers", while agnostic-theists may be "believers", "religious" or "fully devouts"). We just can't report the sources the way that misrepresents their findings, so unless there'll be some source that would group various flavors of "irreligious" into single group, we just can't use the word "irreligious".

That said, inconsistency between articles is a problem indeed. Still, in the lack of consistency within sources all we can do is to give an explanatory note, stating that the classification in this particular article doesn't match that in other articles. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

OK. Sadly, thing aren't always black and white (talking about Misplaced Pages (in)consistency here; present in all the other printed encyclopedias). So, should I start renaming "Irreligion" to "Atheism" where it's applicable as so (Serbia, Russia, Luxembourg, etc.) or should I wait for other opinions, if any? I still am kind of a beginner. Nevertheless, after closing all the discussions here on English Misplaced Pages (there are a few left excluding this), I'll start (as a registered user) on Serbian Misplaced Pages, translating English articles, so don't except me to "intrude" here on the religion again, EVER. 178.223.223.170 (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Acually, after a little thought, I think we should wait a few days (why we couldn't), since I remember some users, such as BigNate37 (talk · contribs), Electriccatfish2 (talk · contribs) and Ebe123 (talk · contribs) promised they'll join in the discussion. I'll left them notes on their respective talk pages. 178.223.223.170 (talk) 22:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Still here. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 22:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

(Still here), not giving us your piece of mind? What's the sitch? Sagaumundi's comment isn't to be excepted (disregarding the fact he's not the "problem" now). It actually is crucial to have as many thoughts as possible (including yours, of those I sent the note to, and all the other available volounteers). Please, comment. Disputes involving the whole Misplaced Pages can't be solved obly by two users (me and Czarkoff in this case). 178.223.223.170 (talk) 23:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure we can wait. I would say we should wait, as is quite possible that some more appropriate solution would be found. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I have to say that, after reading our discussion again, I think we solved everything except "humanism". Now, the results are:

• For Saguamundi (talk · contribs), nothing is to be taken againsts him.
• For "Irreligion" and "No religion", it should be written as the source says.
• For "(Secular) Humanism", discussion is still ahead.

I'll start changing the terms and report back here. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 11:58, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Now → EUR (Irreligion → Atheism), ALB (no chart), AND (no chart), ARM (no disputed terms), AUT (stayed Irreligion), AZE (no disputed terms), BLR (help needed), BEL (Irreligion → Atheism), BIH (no disputed terms), BGR (help needed), CRO (Irreligion → Atheism), CYP (no disputed terms), CZE (Irreligion → No religion), DNK (Irreligion → No religion), EST (Irreligion → No religion), FIN (Irreligion → No religion), ITA (Irreligion → No religion), IRL (Irreligion → No religion), KAZ (Irreligion → Atheism), ISL (Irreligion → No religion), HUN (Irreligion → No religion), GRC (no disputed terms), GER (Irreligion → No religion), GEO (no disputed terms), FRA (Irreligion → No religion). Still lots to go, but I need a break. Please, help with Belarus and Bulgaria. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 12:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I've checked the contributions of editors, whose opening statements are missing: all of them were active after receiving the notification, so there is no sense in waiting for their comments to come. If nobody disagrees, I'll close this case as "resolved". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, first see what I'm doing and if it's right. Continuing → LVA (Irreligion → No religion), LIE (no disputed terms), LTU (Irreligion → No religion), LUX (Irreligion → Atheism), MKD (no disputed terms), MLT (no chart), MDA (no disputed terms), MCO (no chart), MNE (no disputed terms), NLD (need help), NOR (discussion still going on), POL (stayed Irreligion), PRT (is that vandalism?), ROU (no disputed terms), RUS (Irreligion → Atheism), SMR (no disputed terms), SRB (Irreligion → Atheism), SVK (Irreligion → No religion; help, atricle's confusing and misleading), SVN (Irreligion → Atheism; help, article is totally vandalized), ESP (Irreligion → No religion), SWE (Irreligion → Atheism), CHE (stayed Irreligion; maybe erroneously), TUR (no chart), UKR (Unaffiliated seems good enough), GBR (everything's clear), ENG (no chart), WLS (Irreligion → No religion), NIR (Irreligion → No religion), KSV (no disputed terms) and, finally, ABK (None → No religion). 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

So, I just need help with Belarus, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal (sources???), Slovakia (confusing and misleading) and Slovenia (it's either atheo-vandalized or unreferenced). 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Please, don't close the discussion before checking if everything's alright and helping me with forementioned articles. Thanks, 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This discussion should be closed when there is no further dispute to resolve. Is that the case here? The discussion about helping you with the articles should go on the article talk pages --Guy Macon (talk) 16:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.